Pick Four - CATCHERS

[Appling]

if an ELITE Hall of Fame were estabished, admitting only four players at each fielding position, who should be chosen as the four elite CATCHERS?

For some of us, this may be a hard cut to make.

[PhillyA_man]

In no particular order:
Cochrane, Bench, Dickey, Campanella

[Erik Bedard]

Bench, Berra, Fisk, Cochrane (in that order). Cochrane over Dickey and Campy was a hard cut to make.

[KCGHOST]

Ewing, Cochrane, Berra, and Bench (in order of appearance).

[bama50]

Johnny Bench was my top pick.

[1905 Giants]

Bench, Berra, Campy, Dickey

[soberdennis]

I picked Bench, Fisk, Cochrane, and Berra in no particular order. As with some of the other positions, it is hard to stop at four.

[redban]

Bench
Berra
Campy
Fisk

No order.

[538280]

Bench, Berra, Carter, Fisk. In that order. Josh Gibson would be #1, Mike Piazza #3.

[yankillaz]

The Little General, Black Mike, Yogi and Pudge.

Although i almost took Campy over Pudge, but longevity prevailed.

[ElHalo]

Bench, Berra, and Cochrane are easy, and WAY ahead of the rest of the pack, in my view. I was kind of torn with number four (with no Gibson on the list), and in the end came down to Dickey over Hartnett. I can't believe somebody voted for Gary Carter (a/k/a "Thank God for Rick Ferrell, or else I'd have to be the worst catcher in the Hall of Fame.")

[AG2004]

The distance between the greatest and second-greatest players at any position is larger at catcher than at any other position. Unfortunately, the greatest catcher of all time, Josh Gibson, was not included in the poll. (Gibson was also the greatest right-handed hitter of all time.)

Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench are next. I can't decide which one was the better player, but we don't have to rank them for this exercise.

I'll have to pick Ewing over Cochrane or Campanella for the fourth catcher. Cochrane was the only catcher to record 30 win shares per 162 games over the course of his career, but he missed his decline phase. Ewing's 29.69 WS/162 games is second among catchers. Ewing also beats Cochrane and Campanella in ink totals, despite having the disadvantage of playing in the 1880s (as a percentage of team games played, the regular catcher caught less often in that decade than in any other decade). Campanella was too inconsistent for my tastes; although he was the MVP in 1951, 1953, and 1955, he batted just .269 in 1952 and only .207 in 1954.

What would we do with our ELITE hall when Piazza retires? I would rank him above Ewing overall.

[ElHalo]

What would we do with our ELITE hall when Piazza retires? I would rank him above Ewing overall.

You'd rank Piazza over Pudge Rodriguez?

[-Kyle-]

I can't believe somebody voted for Gary Carter (a/k/a "Thank God for Rick Ferrell, or else I'd have to be the worst catcher in the Hall of Fame.")
You would put Ray Schalk above Ferrel?

[EvanAparra]

The distance between the greatest and second-greatest players at any position is larger at catcher than at any other position. Unfortunately, the greatest catcher of all time, Josh Gibson, was not included in the poll. (Gibson was also the greatest right-handed hitter of all time.)

Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench are next. I can't decide which one was the better player, but we don't have to rank them for this exercise.

I'll have to pick Ewing over Cochrane or Campanella for the fourth catcher. Cochrane was the only catcher to record 30 win shares per 162 games over the course of his career, but he missed his decline phase. Ewing's 29.69 WS/162 games is second among catchers. Ewing also beats Cochrane and Campanella in ink totals, despite having the disadvantage of playing in the 1880s (as a percentage of team games played, the regular catcher caught less often in that decade than in any other decade). Campanella was too inconsistent for my tastes; although he was the MVP in 1951, 1953, and 1955, he batted just .269 in 1952 and only .207 in 1954.

What would we do with our ELITE hall when Piazza retires? I would rank him above Ewing overall.


Dont agree with Gibson being the best right handed hitter ever.

[leecemark]

You'd rank Piazza over Pudge Rodriguez?

--I sure would. Piazza is BY FAR the best hitting catcher in MLB history (only the legend of Josh Gibson provides even slight competition). Rodriguez has been a very good, but not great, hitter (Very good is only true in the context of his position -he is just pretty good overall). Pudge does have an all time great arm. Maybe even the best ever, but unless you are a pitcher your arm isn't worth a fraction of your bat.

[538280]

Gary Carter (a/k/a "Thank God for Rick Ferrell, or else I'd have to be the worst catcher in the Hall of Fame.")

Well I'd like to know how you could possibly think that. :confused: Carter was one of the best defensive catchers of all time, lasted a very long time, had a 115 OPS+ that would be much higher if not for his decline, and played in what was, at least to me, maybe the strongest era in baseball history (though you disagree there). This is my top 20 catchers, BTW:

1.Josh Gibson
2.Johnny Bench
3.Mike Piazza
4.Yogi Berra
5.Gary Carter
6.Carlton Fisk
7.Mickey Cochrane
8.Buck Ewing
9.Roy Campanella
10.Bill Dickey
11.Ted Simmons
12.Joe Torre
13.Gabby Hartnett
14.Louis Santop
15.Gene Tenace
16.Ivan Rodriguez
17.Bill Freehan
18.Roger Bresnahan
19.Elston Howard
20.Thurman Munson

I would have voted for Gibson if he was on this poll, as well as Piazza when he becomes eligible.

[RuthMayBond]

I can't believe somebody voted for Gary Carter (a/k/a "Thank God for Rick Ferrell, or else I'd have to be the worst catcher in the Hall of Fame.")He was so bad, two guys actually caught more games than him. So bad he only led his league in assists FIVE times. So bad he only out OPS+ed Schalk by 32 points and with 2800 MORE plate apps.

[ElHalo]

You would put Ray Schalk above Ferrel?

Easily. Schalk is the best defensive catcher of all time, by a lot (some would argue differently; it's possible, since it's so hard to quantify catching defense, but his peers were in awe of his D). Ferrell was an average-to-below average defender and average hitter (for a catcher; below average otherwise). It's like comparing Ozzie Smith to Orlando Cabrera.

[ElHalo]

Well I'd like to know how you could possibly think that. :confused: Carter was one of the best defensive catchers of all time, lasted a very long time, had a 115 OPS+ that would be much higher if not for his decline, and played in what was, at least to me, maybe the strongest era in baseball history (though you disagree there).

Catching defense is of course almost impossible to quantify numerically, but I've never been under the impression that Carter was any better than adequate, and not even close to that in his later years (I distinctly remember the impression from Mets fans that Mackey Sasser was the best defensive C they'd had since Ron Hodges retired... and Sasser was TERRIBLE... in fairness, I was only splitting time in NY then, back and forth to Detroit, so maybe I wasn't catching the whole vibe). And his offense was absolutely ordinary. I've said many times that I'll take offense however I can get it from a catcher, but there at least has to be something there to take. A .335 OBP with no contact hitting, no doubles power, and no speed is not offense. Basically, his ONLY offensive weapon was the home run, and he averaged 23 of those / 162. Just a mediocre performer.

Basically, I look at it like this. Take all the C's in the Hall. Throw out the 19th century guys, because they're impossible to quantify. My top 3 worst of what's left would be:

Offense:

1. Schalk
2. Ferrell
3. Carter

Defense:

1. Lombardi
2. Ferrell
3. Carter

Ferrell shows up on both of these lists ahead of Carter, so he's first. But Carter is absolutely right there behind him.

[ElHalo]

--I sure would. Piazza is BY FAR the best hitting catcher in MLB history (only the legend of Josh Gibson provides even slight competition). Rodriguez has been a very good, but not great, hitter (Very good is only true in the context of his position -he is just pretty good overall). Pudge does have an all time great arm. Maybe even the best ever, but unless you are a pitcher your arm isn't worth a fraction of your bat.

Way I see it, C is the most important defensive position on the field, so when I'm rating a player's overall worth as a C, I go 50/50, offense and defense. Pudge Rodriguez not only has a great arm, but has possibly unseated Ray Schalk as the greatest defensive catcher in the history of baseball (and, hence, the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball). The same can be said for Piazza from the offensive end. On the other hand, Pudge is actually a pretty good, but not great, hitter (would be one of the weaker ones in the Hall of Fame), while Piazza is arguably the worst defensive catcher in the history of mankind (felt like I had to expand the horizons of baseball on that one).

Since the two halfs rank equally for me, and each player dominates a side, it comes down to who's better at their weak point. And Pudge is inarguably much, much better of a hitter than Piazza is of a defender.

[yest]

Defense:
3. Carter
that's funny cause I have him as one of the 10 best defensive catchers ever.

[538280]

Catching defense is of course almost impossible to quantify numerically, but I've never been under the impression that Carter was any better than adequate, and not even close to that in his later years (I distinctly remember the impression from Mets fans that Mackey Sasser was the best defensive C they'd had since Ron Hodges retired... and Sasser was TERRIBLE... in fairness, I was only splitting time in NY then, back and forth to Detroit, so maybe I wasn't catching the whole vibe).

Well, you don't have to trust defensive metrics exclusively, but every one has Carter at least one of the top 10 defensive catchers ever, and most have him in the top 5 if not the top 1, so even if you don't trust them if they ALL say he's one of the greatest don't you have to give in at least a little bit?

Once Carter went to NY he was beyond his defensive prime, though still very, very good. His truly great catching years came in Montreal, in that time he was thought of as a great defensive catcher, won three GGs but in all honestly probably deserved a ton more.

And his offense was absolutely ordinary. I've said many times that I'll take offense however I can get it from a catcher, but there at least has to be something there to take. A .335 OBP with no contact hitting, no doubles power, and no speed is not offense. Basically, his ONLY offensive weapon was the home run, and he averaged 23 of those / 162. Just a mediocre performer.

Those rates are completely unfair to Carter. He had one of the longest careers of any catcher and that included a decline when he was not what he used to be. In the years 1977-1986 Carter was a remarkably consistent and well rounded offensive performer, played almost every game, and caught with an all time great level of defense.

Basically, I look at it like this. Take all the C's in the Hall. Throw out the 19th century guys, because they're impossible to quantify. My top 3 worst of what's left would be:

Offense:

1. Schalk
2. Ferrell
3. Carter

Defense:

1. Lombardi
2. Ferrell
3. Carter

Ferrell shows up on both of these lists ahead of Carter, so he's first. But Carter is absolutely right there behind him.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're ignoring longevity, and just horribly, horribly underrating Carter's defense.

[DoubleX]

Of the players listed, I'd put in Bench, Berra, Cochrane, and Campanella. However, at least one player will be bumped with Piazza becomes eligible, and possibly two with Rodriguez as well.

[brett]

For me, Bench, Berra and Cochrane are automatic. The it was between Fisk and Campanella. I took Campy, and could easily have gone with Fisk.

[AG2004]

--I sure would. Piazza is BY FAR the best hitting catcher in MLB history (only the legend of Josh Gibson provides even slight competition).

The analysts over at baseballthinkfactory believe that Gibson is in Rogers Hornsby territory as a hitter, with a record comparable to a major leaguer with an OPS+ of 170 to 180. That would make either Gibson or Hornsby the best right-handed hitter ever.

Piazza has a lifetime OPS+ of 147, but that will probably decline a bit before he retures. Berra is at 125, Bench at 126, and Ewing at 130 - it takes a lot of defensive value to close the gap Piazza has on offense. Those three just manage to do it, and that's partly because Piazza is average at best on defense. Cochrane's at 128, but his short career worked against him in this case.

[futurehalloffamer]

I, for one, was relieved not to see Josh Gibson on this list. I'm one of those people that don't believe all the hype on Gibson and turn beet-red when people try to rank him ahead of Johnny Bench. His legend seems about as real as that of Santa Claus to me.

[1927Marlins]

wheres Josh Gibson?, its hard because we dont have the exact numbers available but he was the "Babe Ruth of the Negro Leagues", enough said.