Pick Four - Right Field [Archive]

leecemark

08-25-2006, 06:06 PM

--Better question - why so many Clemente votes?. Ruth, Aaron and Robinson are the no brainers (or at least I thought so:confused: ). I see Jackson and Ott has the contenders for the 4th spot, with Crawford, Kaline, Gwynn, Clemente and Waner just slightly behind them.

leecemark

08-25-2006, 06:10 PM

--Sultan, don't you think calling Harry Hooper one of the four best/most deserving HoF makes you look kind of foolish? How can you possibly defend such a vote? Yest, Heilman AND Keeler:eek: ?

Francoeurstein

08-25-2006, 06:39 PM

Can someone change my vote from Jackson to Clemente, I didn't see Roberto.

538280

08-25-2006, 06:44 PM

Why not Ott?

Well, they're really close. I've been over that one a number of times. Read posts #72, #83, and #86.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=46390&page=3

538280

08-25-2006, 06:48 PM

Can someone change my vote from Jackson to Clemente, I didn't see Roberto.

No, your first choice was right IMO. Jackson's OPS+ was nine points higher than Clemente's despite Roberto not having a decline phase. Clemente was a better defensive outfielder, but saying that is enough to offset the offensive differences is almost certainly wrong, Jackson was also faster and a better baserunner too.

IN order to truly look at how they were as hitters, we have to strip Reggie of his post 1982 decline, because Clemente died before he could go through his period. We can compare that with Clemente's overall statistics.

Reggie pre decline: .272/.363/.512
League hit: .252/.321/.377
OPS+: 149

Most notably you'll see Reggie comes out with a pretty solid relative BA minus the decline. His 108 mark is the same as Pie Traynor, a player often lauded for his contact hitting skill. Anyway, he comes out with a 19 point lead on Clemente, and I don't think any corner OF defense can overcome 19 OPS+ points.

Myankee4life

08-25-2006, 06:59 PM

Faster???

Look no further than their amount of triples. I also once read that Reggie was clocked running 3.8 (or something like that) but when talking Major leagues I find it hard to believe that a fellow with 166 triples his a worse baserunner/slower than a guy with 49 triples...

Although Jackson stole quite a few more bases to my surprise......

Take your pic......triples or steals??

leecemark

08-25-2006, 07:03 PM

--Forbes field was a triples haven. Almost verybody who played much there hit large numbers of triples. Heck, Willie Stargell was one of the slowest men in baseball and he hit more triples than Reggie too. It was mostly a function of park.

Sultan_1895-1948

08-25-2006, 08:31 PM

--Sultan, don't you think calling Harry Hooper one of the four best/most deserving HoF makes you look kind of foolish? How can you possibly defend such a vote? Yest, Heilman AND Keeler:eek: ?

I actually meant to vote for Heilmann..oops. Hooper would be comfortably in my top ten though.

leecemark

08-25-2006, 08:38 PM

--Okay defend Heilman as a top 4 Rfer then. He isn't in my top 10. Great BA, but moderate power and a poor defender and baserunner with a relatively short career. Hooper doesn't make my top 20 RF (probably not my top 30 for that matter).

Sultan_1895-1948

08-25-2006, 08:59 PM

No wonder you can't rank him, you can't even spell his name ;)

We all have our opinions. As you know, I don't have a set system and this isn't life or death. I would put him in the HOF every day of the week. Were there other right fielders that I wanted to check-off, sure. This is very limiting with only four choices.

I can only image the type of adjustments you make that downgrade Harry. You and Chris...boy oh boy. :clapping

leecemark

08-25-2006, 09:11 PM

--Adjustments aren't even needed. Tony Gwynn was a better hitter, ran better, fielded better and lasted longer. Tony didn't make my top 4 and he is clearly better than Harry even with no LQ adjustment.

1) Ruth (should be #1 on every list)
2) Aaron (just as easy a #2)
3) Robinson (hey this is an easy position to rank;) )
--big gap
4) Jackson
5) Ott
--smaller gap
6) Crawford
7) Gwynn
8) Kaline
9) Clemente
10) Waner
--another gap
11) Heilmann
12) Winfield
13-20 murky area
--several gaps
Hooper and Keeler (who have somehow drawn votes for top 4) and Rice (who somehow made the ballot).

Sultan_1895-1948

08-25-2006, 09:20 PM

I don't think you appreciate just how good Hooper and Heilmann were, but that's fine. Numbers are everything.

So did you use LQ adjustments to put Reggie at #4 or no?

Actually, I would probably take Crawford 4th, but Heilmann and Hooper aren't that far behind. Is it clear yet that I have no set system?

redban

08-25-2006, 09:22 PM

Ruth
Aaron
Robinson
Kaline

Sultan_1895-1948

08-25-2006, 09:23 PM

Prepare to answer for Kaline to kingmark

leecemark

08-25-2006, 09:30 PM

--Well obviously I don't think Kaline is top 4, but there are arguements for half a dozen guys for the 4th spot and Al is one of them. I can't see any reasonable argument for Ruth, Aaron and Robinson NOT taking the top 3 spots. For me the 4th spot comes down to Jackson and Ott, but Kaline, Crawford, Gwynn, Clemente and Waner aren't that far behind. I could have easily slipped Wahoo Sam in there myself as a personal favorite. I'm sure my Dad would have picked Kaline:gt .

RuthMayBond

08-26-2006, 06:42 AM

I don't think you appreciate just how good Hooper and Heilmann were, but that's fine. Numbers are everything.Heilmann maybe, but Hooper? And from my system that has been accused of having NO LQ adjustments

<Is it clear yet that I have no set system?>

Admitting is the first step to recovery ;)

DoubleX

08-26-2006, 08:27 AM

The problem with this kind of question is do you kick people out as more deserving candidates come along, or do you expand the number?

I know for sure that Ruth, Aaron, and Robinson would make it. The four spot is very much up for grabs. I can see arguments for any of the following (in no particular order):

- Sam Crawford, in a tip of the hat to that generation.
- Tony Gwynn - I think I generally rate him higher than most around here. Highest BA relative to league since Ty Cobb. That really leaps out to me. Very good all around player early in his career as well.
- Roberto Clemente, as a recognition of his importance in promoting the game in Latin America (in addition to being a fine player)
- Mel Ott

And to a slightly lesser degree, I could see arguments for Reggie Jackson and Al Kaline.

538280

08-26-2006, 10:03 AM

Well, Sultan, Heilmann is around 15-20 for me. Hooper....well, he'd probably make my top 50 I guess.

.Babe Ruth
2.Hank Aaron
3.Frank Robinson
4.Reggie Jackson
5.Pete Rose (if you want to call him an RFer)
6.Mel Ott
7.Tony Gwynn
8.Dave Winfield
9.Gary Sheffield
10.Sam Crawford
11.Roberto Clemente
12.Al Kaline
13.Martin Dihigo
14.Paul Waner
15.Bobby Bonds
16.Dave Parker
17.Willard Brown
18.Reggie Smith
19.Harry Heilmann
20.Enos Slaughter

HM: Ken Singleton, Brian Giles, Elmer Flick, King Kelly, Vladimir Guerrero, Bobby Abreu, Andre Dawson

yankillaz

08-26-2006, 11:51 AM

The Babe, Hammerin Hank, Frank Robinson and Master Melvin.

I would've place Gwynn if he'd hit over 300 homers.

ElHalo

08-26-2006, 03:16 PM

1. Ruth
2. Aaron
3. F. Robinson
4. Ott
5. Waner
6. Crawford
7. Kaline
8. Heilmann
9. Klein
10. S. Rice
11. Keeler
12. Flick
13. Crawford
14. Gwynn
15. Sheffield
16. Guerrero
17. Clemente
18. Walker
19. R. Jackson
20. Winfield

One for all you Reggie fans to consider: Just how is Reggie Jackson better than Larry Walker? Walker was an all time type defensive RF'er and an outstanding baserunner. Walker's raw numbers were of course inflated by Coors, but his park adjusted OPS+ is better than Reggie's, he got that number in more valuable ways (i.e., BA driven OBP), and he played in a tougher, more competitive era. Reggie had more longevity, but he too fell off a cliff. I fail to see how you could consider Reggie Jackson to be better than Larry Walker.

leecemark

08-26-2006, 05:13 PM

One for all you Reggie fans to consider: Just how is Reggie Jackson better than Larry Walker? Walker was an all time type defensive RF'er and an outstanding baserunner. Walker's raw numbers were of course inflated by Coors, but his park adjusted OPS+ is better than Reggie's, he got that number in more valuable ways (i.e., BA driven OBP), and he played in a tougher, more competitive era. Reggie had more longevity, but he too fell off a cliff. I fail to see how you could consider Reggie Jackson to be better than Larry Walker.

--Jackson has alot more weight to his career than Walker. He did have an unfortunately steep decline and that is the only reason Walker ended up with a little better rate (again with much less overall production). I disagree about which faced the higher level of competition.

yest

08-26-2006, 08:06 PM

Keeler was one of the best BA hitters ever

538280

08-26-2006, 08:20 PM

Keeler was one of the best BA hitters ever

Well, he certainly had an awesome BA, though in context he was not one of the absolute best of all time. Too bad he had little other offensive skills though-he didn't walk nor hit for power, not to mention the leagues he played in. Far from a great player. Rating him anywhere near a true all time great shows you have an unreasonable infatuation with batting averages-if you are a high end BA freak the better choice here woudl be Gwynn, I could perhaps see a case for him.

ElHalo

08-26-2006, 08:32 PM

Well, he certainly had an awesome BA, though in context he was not one of the absolute best of all time. Too bad he had little other offensive skills though-he didn't walk nor hit for power, not to mention the leagues he played in. Far from a great player. Rating him anywhere near a true all time great shows you have an unreasonable infatuation with batting averages-if you are a high end BA freak the better choice here woudl be Gwynn, I could perhaps see a case for him.

It depends on what you mean by "true all time great." If by that you mean "top 100 all time," then call me a freak. If you mean "should be voted in the top 4 all time at RF," then put me in a different category.

You'd think that me, of all people, would have more respect for Tony Gwynn. But for whatever reason, I just can't have any respect for a guy who did most of his damage in the 80's... in the National League... and even when he came back in the 90's... was still in the National League. There's only so far you can run with that on your resume. If he'd put up the same numbers for the Angels, and shifted his career seven years forward in time on both ends, it's possible that he'd be in my top 25 all time. As it is, I feel silly for putting him in my top 75. Oh well.

538280

08-26-2006, 08:47 PM

It depends on what you mean by "true all time great." If by that you mean "top 100 all time," then call me a freak. If you mean "should be voted in the top 4 all time at RF," then put me in a different category.

Keeler is nothing to me but a glorified Jesus Alou. :D

You'd think that me, of all people, would have more respect for Tony Gwynn. But for whatever reason, I just can't have any respect for a guy who did most of his damage in the 80's... in the National League... and even when he came back in the 90's... was still in the National League. There's only so far you can run with that on your resume. If he'd put up the same numbers for the Angels, and shifted his career seven years forward in time on both ends, it's possible that he'd be in my top 25 all time. As it is, I feel silly for putting him in my top 75. Oh well.

Just because he played in the 80s, you can't accept him as a true all time great? Well, fine I guess, to each his own, but considering he also played tremendously in the 90s as well, I don't see the logic of that.

ElHalo

08-26-2006, 08:51 PM

Keeler is nothing to me but a glorified Jesus Alou. :D

Just because he played in the 80s, you can't accept him as a true all time great? Well, fine I guess, to each his own, but considering he also played tremendously in the 90s as well, I don't see the logic of that.

And like I said, the same is true (to a lesser extent) of Wade Boggs... and I rank Boggs much higher than Gwynn, despite his not being as good of a hitter, based solely on a) Boggs' playing 3B instead of RF, and b) Boggs' playing in the American League. That's why I'm hesitant to endorse Pujols wholeheartedly; it's like, yeah, he's great and all... but what would he do in Boston? Just look at the performance of almost every single pitcher who's left the National League to go to the American League in the last twenty years, and then at guys like Clemens going the other way, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the NL is AAAA ball. And that has to be taken into account when rating them.

ElHalo

08-26-2006, 08:52 PM

Keeler is nothing to me but a glorified Jesus Alou. :D

I'll take it. :-)

leecemark

08-26-2006, 08:56 PM

Keeler was one of the best BA hitters ever

--He was certainly one of the best BA hitters of HIS time. I don't know about all time though. He only led his league twice and if the ONLY thing
you have going for you is BA that isn't enough to get you amoung the elite. An okay HoFer with 200+ members, but no way should he even be considered when you are limited to 4 per position.

brett

08-26-2006, 09:48 PM

Ruth and Aaron. Also Robinson. He's underrated and true top 20 material. And Ott. Clemente was the last off.

yest

08-27-2006, 04:35 AM

yankillaz

08-27-2006, 10:25 AM

Yest, i think he meant Matty Alou. He was the best hitting Alou brother.

Now, let's go with EH. Say what???

Let me see...

1. Vlad Guerrero has been slumping terribly since he came to the AL.
2. Bret Boone came to the AL and didn't do squat in his first season.
3. Roberto Alomar had his best years in the NL.
4. Gary Sheffield was never the same player in the Yankee Stadium.
5. Ken Griffey Jr had his best full season in 2000 with Cinci.
6. Dave Winfield had a way better career in the NL.

If this is true, then you are correct.

RuthMayBond

08-27-2006, 12:29 PM

Yest, i think he meant Matty Alou. He was the best hitting Alou brother.

Now, let's go with EH. Say what???

Let me see...

1. Vlad Guerrero has been slumping terribly since he came to the AL.He's had almost the same OPS+

<2. Bret Boone came to the AL and didn't do squat in his first season.>

Yeah :laugh

<3. Roberto Alomar had his best years in the NL.>

To be fair, his only years in the NL were when he was learning the ropes, and then when the ropes were fraying

<4. Gary Sheffield was never the same player in the Yankee Stadium.>

True but he's getting up there

<5. Ken Griffey Jr had his best full season in 2000 with Cinci.>

If you don't count '93, '97, '98 ...

<6. Dave Winfield had a way better career in the NL.>

Yes and no. Not sure what your point was

538280

08-27-2006, 12:34 PM

since when did Jesus Alou hit 380 for his career at any point
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/BA_progress.shtml

or hit .794 point above his leauge the 5th highest all time and the ones before him had much better decline phases Lajoie, Hornsby, Ted Williams, Cobb

The Jesus Alou comment was a play on how EH always calls high walk sluggers like Mike Schmidt or Reggie Jackson "nothing but a glorified Rob Deer". Deer was a player with a good power and walking skills, but a very low BA and tons of Ks. I suppose Schmidt as a hitter was like Rob Deer, but just so much better. Alou was a pretty high BA hitter, but did nothing else at all at the batter's box, so Keeler's as much Jesus Alou as Mike Schmidt is Rob Deer.