Who is everyones favorite Pirates?

[Goooooo]

Current: Freddy, Bay, Snell

All time: Mike Fetters, Pokey Reese, Kenny Lofton (Clemente & Stargell go without saying)

[Honus Wagner]

i won't vote for myself...
rennie stennett, steve blass, bob moose and manny sanguillen (who was traded for chuck tanner!!!)

[CanadianKid]

Jason Bay is my favorite Pirate

[Seattle1]

Kent Tekulve

[Ontarioguy]

As much as I'm proud of fellow Canadian Jason Bay, I have to say Freddy Sanchez has really won me over this season.

[Gary Gaetti for MVP]

Current: Freddy, Bay, Snell

All time: Mike Fetters, Pokey Reese, Kenny Lofton (Clemente & Stargell go without saying)


I'm going to pretend you didn’t say Mike "spin my large head for intimidation factor" Fetters. But I would have to go with Brian Giles, Bay, Rob Mackowiak, Scott Sauerbeck, and Al Martin of recent times. Obviously Clemente, Stargell, and Mazeroski.

[W_Marone]

I'm not a pirates fans, but one of my favorite players of all time along with stan musial is Roberto Clemente.

[runningshoes]

The Flying Dutchman

[cbenson5]

Jason Bay is my favorite active pirate.

Honus Wagner is my favorite all time pirate.

[Red Sox Rule]

Current: Jason Bay

All time: Clemente

[SportStarMarc]

CHRIS DUFFY!!!!! of course im like the founder of his philly-based fan club (long story..) hehe. but uh yea DUFFY DUFFY DUFFY DUFFY DUFFY DUFFY DUFFY. 2nd is ELDRED (when he comes back..)

[Outta Here]

By far and away Freddy Sanchez :clapping

Can't really say for all-time, but you can't go against RC, Honus, etc..

[brewcrew82]

Going with players I actually saw play (rules out Maz, Clemente, Wagner et al), I'd say Andy Van Slyke.

[Goooooo]

great feedback guys

[GypsyDavy]

Greatest Pirates : 1) John Peter "Honus" Wagner 2) Roberto Clemente Walker 3) Deacon Phillipe 4) Paul Waner 5) Pie Traynor 6) John Candelaria 7) Bob Friend 8) Willie Stargell 9) Hazen "Kiki" Cuyler 10) Bob Veale

[Jose Reyes]

Xavier "X" Nady

[Bucco Fanatic]

ready or not here comes the BOOM!! Mike Gonzalez..hands down

[MSRoble]

My current favorite is Jason Bay

My all-time favorites are Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargell as a close second.

[The Kid]

I love the Flying Dutchman, Pops, and Pokey Reese.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Freddy Sanchez

[EvanAparra]

Pie Traynor

[Murderer's Row]

Bill Mazeroski.:ughh








Hello Pittsburgh Fans. I hear Freddy won the batting title. Congratulations:waving

[Sliding Billy]

The Pirates seem to have more than their share of admirable or congenial stars.

I have a soft spot for Bob Friend, but I guess my favorite would have to be Dock Ellis.

[BayBalla]

Freddy, by a large margin this year. He is an intelligent guy who happens to be a hell of a ballplayer that gives his all pretty much every day. This season was just WOW for him and I only hope it wasn't a career year.

[Mad Guru]

Native Delawarean (http://www.delawarebaseball.com) Ian Snell is my favorite Pirate. Bill Madlock is probably my favorite of the past.

[MikeVelaGonzalez51]

Mike Gonzalez. Got to meet him this year in Pittsburgh when I went there for the All-Star Game. He's from Robstown, a small town near where I live. I told him that, and he signed some stuff for me and took pictures and talked with my family. It was pretty cool. Plus, he's the league's best closer.

[ted P.]

Current-Wilson
Past-Wagner, Clemente and Law

[Bucco Fanatic]

Mike Gonzalez. Got to meet him this year in Pittsburgh when I went there for the All-Star Game. He's from Robstown, a small town near where I live. I told him that, and he signed some stuff for me and took pictures and talked with my family. It was pretty cool. Plus, he's the league's best closer.

Ive met him too. Hes a pretty nice guy. I wish I wouldve had something for him to sign other than my ticket.

[Sabes87]

Xavier Nady!!!

[deukorea]

current: Freddy Sanchez/Zach Duke
all time: Roberto Clemente

[PiratesFan]

Current: Jason Bay
Past: Pops

[timmyjack50]

Current: Jason Bay, Jack Wilson, Xaiver Nady

All-Time: Frank Thomas, Bob Robertson, Roberto Clemente, Willie Stargell, Chuck Tanner and Jim Leyland

[KCFAN11]

Current: Freddy Sanchez, Xavier Nady

All time : roberto Clemente

[frehleyscomet]

Favorite all-time: DAVE(COBRA)PARKER

Close 2nd- Willie Stargell

Barry Bonds

[richie hebner]

If you live long enough I am sure your list would change. As a kid I used to watch Clemente play right field ...little did I know then ..that it doesn't get any better. Stargell was another favorite. Mazerowski, Gene Alley and Ralph Kiner has to be on my list.

[frehleyscomet]

As a kid I used to watch Clemente play right field ...little did I know then ..that it doesn't get any better.

I think it did get better. Dave Parker wasnt the highest paid player in the game for nothing. Stargell played with both Clemente and Parker and said that Parker was the best player in baseball. He also said that a player like Parker only comes around every 20 or 30 years. Nobody could throw screamers to the plate like Parker. He had the strongest arm and was one of the fastest players clocked at 9.6 seconds in 100 yards.

[maxcarey]

I think it did get better. Dave Parker wasnt the highest paid player in the game for nothing.

With all due respect, please do not embarass Dave Parker by mentioning him in the same breath as Roberto Clemente.

Parker was good, very good for a short period of time. Then other things happened to him that derailed his HOF career that was projected for him.

That alone is a huge difference between the two, Parker was a "could've been" Clemente was an all-time star.

[frehleyscomet]

With all due respect, please do not embarass Dave Parker by mentioning him in the same breath as Roberto Clemente.

Parker was good, very good for a short period of time. Then other things happened to him that derailed his HOF career that was projected for him.

That alone is a huge difference between the two, Parker was a "could've been" Clemente was an all-time star.

With all due respect, Clemente will get more respect from fans because of the tragic way he died. Note: look at my top 5 best pirates of all-time. I think Parker was the better all-around player. And he really didnt derail his HOF career at all. His stats are comparable with Stargell's, and Stargell is a first year HOFer. The reason Parker hasn't gotten in yet is because of his past drug problems. But he did clean up his act and went on to have some great years with other teams including a MVP run year in 85.

[imgreat95]

His stats are comparable with Stargell's, and Stargell is a first year HOFer.

Are you joking? How and WHERE are they comparable???

[frehleyscomet]

Are you joking? How and WHERE are they comparable???


They both have 1 MVP although Parker should have 2.
They both have 2 rings.
Less than 50 RBI difference.
8 point difference in batting average
Stargell won 2 home run crowns, Parker won 2 batting titles.
Extra base hits: Stargell -953, Parker -940

[imgreat95]

They both have 1 MVP although Parker should have 2.
They both have 2 rings.
Less than 50 RBI difference.
8 point difference in batting average
Stargell won 2 home run crowns, Parker won 2 batting titles.
Extra base hits: Stargell -953, Parker -940

MVPs mean nothing. To win an MVP award yuo are simply competing against your contemporaries. It is also an award that is VOTED on. Doesnt mean a thing. You say Parker should have had 2... well the case could EASILY be made that Stargell should have had 3. Less than 50 RBI difference also doesnt mean a thing. Parker had about 1400 more at bats than Stargell.


Batting average is a pretty useless stat. Stargell had an OBP 21 points higher and an OPS of 61 points higher.

I liked dave parker... but Stargell he was not...

[maxcarey]

With all due respect, Clemente will get more respect from fans because of the tragic way he died. Note: look at my top 5 best pirates of all-time. I think Parker was the better all-around player. And he really didnt derail his HOF career at all. His stats are comparable with Stargell's, and Stargell is a first year HOFer. The reason Parker hasn't gotten in yet is because of his past drug problems. But he did clean up his act and went on to have some great years with other teams including a MVP run year in 85.


While true about his tragic death, Clemente gets more respect because he was a superior ballplayer. I really can't understand the argument that Parker was the better player. He had some tremendous peak years, but the body of his work is clearly not Hall of Fame material, drug issue or not.

I will grant you that Parker did lead his league in more categories than Clemente did, but also keep in mind that Clemente played nearly his whole career prior to division play and inferior opponents.

Playing one less season than Parker (and Clemente could have played another 2-3 years) Clemente had more hits, a much higher batting average (.317 in a pitchers era vs .290), amd a better on base percentage. Clemente collected 200 hits on four occassions, Parker once.

Parker's greatest strength in this argument (from what I'm getting) is that he was a more effective power hitter than Clemente (he hit 100 more HRs) but Clemente had a higher slugging average for his career (.475 vs. .471) and collected more total bases (4492 vs. 4405)

Let's look at some extraneous stuff such as awards. You mention that Parker could have been MVP more than once, but you could make the same claim about Clemente. Fact is, they both won the award once.

Clemente was 12-time gold glove winner, winning the award every single year from its inception until his death. Parker won it three times at the peak of his career. And while you mention that Parker had a cannon in the outfield (who will forget the 1979 all star game?) Clemente had 100 more OF assists than Parker did over his career (266 vs. 143).

Clemente was a 15-time All-Star, Parker was honored only 7 times. Additionally, Parker played the four years of his career as a DH and never had to take the field a luxury that Clemente never enjoyed.

As I said before, Parker was a dominant player for a very short period of time. Clemente was excellent over 18 years and it is really not worthwhile to continue to compare the two. Parker simply does not match up in any way to Clemente no matter which way you cut it.

As far as Stargell goes, there may be a closer statistical comparision, but Stargell finished his career universally respected and admired by those in and around baseball. His trifecta of MVPs in 1979 cemented his legacy and gave his HOF candiacy an additional aura. Parker never will have that same aura around him and sadly it was mostly of his own doing.

Simply stated, Dave Parker will not enter the Hall of Fame in this or the next generation. He may make it later on when we are all quite old, but I just don't see it happening when there are more qualified candidates from his generation (Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy).

[frehleyscomet]

As far as Stargell goes, there may be a closer statistical comparision, but Stargell finished his career universally respected and admired by those in and around baseball. His trifecta of MVPs in 1979 cemented his legacy and gave his HOF candiacy an additional aura. Parker never will have that same aura around him and sadly it was mostly of his own doing.

Simply stated, Dave Parker will not enter the Hall of Fame in this or the next generation. He may make it later on when we are all quite old, but I just don't see it happening when there are more qualified candidates from his generation (Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy).

I agree about what you said about pops. He was something special and that's why he has a statue. But i dont agree that those other 3 players you mentioned are more qualified than Parker. Parker should have been a first ballet HOFer.

[frehleyscomet]

MVPs mean nothing. To win an MVP award yuo are simply competing against your contemporaries. It is also an award that is VOTED on. Doesnt mean a thing. You say Parker should have had 2... well the case could EASILY be made that Stargell should have had 3. Less than 50 RBI difference also doesnt mean a thing. Parker had about 1400 more at bats than Stargell.


I liked dave parker... but Stargell he was not...

Mvp's and the other stats i gave mean alot when its comes to getting into the hall. Stargell played 3 more seasons than Parker so he should have higher numbers but he doesnt. If a certain player has more at bats when it comes to anything, homers, hits, whatever and they have more they are still considered the all-time leader in that category so dont tell me it doesnt mean anything. In many ways Stargell was great but Parker he was not. Parker was the better athlete, had a stronger arm, and was a better defensive player.

[maxcarey]

But i dont agree that those other 3 players you mentioned are more qualified than Parker. Parker should have been a first ballet HOFer.

Maybe not "more" qualified, but "as" qualified. I would throw Tim Raines in that category as well.

[frehleyscomet]

Maybe not "more" qualified, but "as" qualified. I would throw Tim Raines in that category as well.

I dont know. Raines had a long career but besides his high number of stolen bases he really doesn't strike me as a HOFer. And he was never once in the running for an MVP. Out of the other 3 you mentioned Murphy was awful good for about 3-4 years. After that, he really didnt put up any numbers.

[maxcarey]

Well, that wasn't the intent of our original discussion - which was Parker is Clemente's equal.

After that, I really don't care enough about Dave Parker to continue to compare him with others in this thread. That's what the Hall of Fame thread is for.

Please don't take that personally.

[MadHatter]

All Time I'll go with Manny Sanguillen & Andy Van Slyke!

[cards kid]

honus wagner cause he was and is awesome

[cards kid]

mine is honus wagner because he worked so hard

[sisyphus]

I think it did get better. Dave Parker wasnt the highest paid player in the game for nothing. Stargell played with both Clemente and Parker and said that Parker was the best player in baseball. He also said that a player like Parker only comes around every 20 or 30 years. Nobody could throw screamers to the plate like Parker. He had the strongest arm and was one of the fastest players clocked at 9.6 seconds in 100 yards.

I was a big fan of Dave Parker. But Dave Parker shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with Clemente. Parker was a near Hall of Famer; Clemente was such a no-brainer that they suspended the five year waiting period to get him in the Hall. Parker was probably a bit faster than Clemente, but not much. Parker had one of the strongest arms in the game in his youth; Clemente had one of the best throwing arms in the history of baseball. If they had been playing at the same time Parker would have been moved to left field or first base to make room for Clemente in right. Parker was probably the best player in baseball around 77-79. Clemente is one of the best players in the history of baseball. You should note that when Stargell called Parker the best player in baseball, Clemente was no longer in baseball.

[sisyphus]

With all due respect, Clemente will get more respect from fans because of the tragic way he died.

That's right, he does. He gets more respect as a human being. Not as a player. He gets more respect as a player because he was vastly superior to Parker as a player.

Note: look at my top 5 best pirates of all-time. I think Parker was the better all-around player.

You are mistaken, perhaps because of a lack of knowledge of baseball history. Clemente was a better hitter, a better baserunner, had better range, had a better glove, and had perhaps the strongest throwing arm in the history of the game. If you'd care to list Parker as your favorite of the two, that's fine, as it is a matter of personal judgement. My favorite Pirate right now is Masumi Kawata, even though he probably won't even make the team. But when you try to make the case that Parker was a better player than Clemente you have no leg to stand on.

And he really didnt derail his HOF career at all. His stats are comparable with Stargell's, and Stargell is a first year HOFer.

His stats are nowhere near comparable to Stargell's, especially when you take into account the fact that Stargell played in the dead ball '60's.

The reason Parker hasn't gotten in yet is because of his past drug problems. But he did clean up his act and went on to have some great years with other teams including a MVP run year in 85.

I agree that Parker's drug problems may be keeping him out of the HOF. Note that I said MAY. Parker is a borderline HOF candidate, and the voters may be refusing to give him the benefit of the doubt over that issue. Personally, I think that Parker isn't going to make the Hall because his bad knees cost him the numbers that would have assured him a spot. I don't think that cocaine use had any effect on his play at all.

[sisyphus]

I dont know. Raines had a long career but besides his high number of stolen bases he really doesn't strike me as a HOFer. And he was never once in the running for an MVP. Out of the other 3 you mentioned Murphy was awful good for about 3-4 years. After that, he really didnt put up any numbers.

Tim Raines is the second best leadoff hitter in the history of baseball, behind only Rickey Henderson. He will get into the Hall.

[frehleyscomet]

I was a big fan of Dave Parker. But Dave Parker shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with Clemente. Parker was a near Hall of Famer; Clemente was such a no-brainer that they suspended the five year waiting period to get him in the Hall. Parker was probably a bit faster than Clemente, but not much. Parker had one of the strongest arms in the game in his youth; Clemente had one of the best throwing arms in the history of baseball. If they had been playing at the same time Parker would have been moved to left field or first base to make room for Clemente in right. Parker was probably the best player in baseball around 77-79. Clemente is one of the best players in the history of baseball. You should note that when Stargell called Parker the best player in baseball, Clemente was no longer in baseball.

Again i disagree. Parker not Clemente had one of the strongest arms in baseball. He was stronger and faster than Clemente. Parker also hit for more power than Clemente. Clemente may be one of the best pirates of all time but to say he was one of the best players in baseball history is laughable. He is never mentioned among the greatest. Parker should have been a first ballet hall of famer but that doesnt mean anything. There are better players that are NOT in the hall than Clemente. So in a way it is a hall of SHAME!! I still see people listed Dave Parker items on ebay saying that Parker was one of the best all-around players the game has ever seen. I have to agree. In their primes Parker was better than both Stargell and Clemente and would have been the choice at right.

[frehleyscomet]

Tim Raines is the second best leadoff hitter in the history of baseball, behind only Rickey Henderson. He will get into the Hall.


Raines is no where in Hendersons league.

[TheStringIsOut_NC]

Again i disagree. Parker not Clemente had one of the strongest arms in baseball. He was stronger and faster than Clemente. Parker also hit for more power than Clemente. Clemente may be one of the best pirates of all time but to say he was one of the best players in baseball history is laughable. He is never mentioned among the greatest. Parker should have been a first ballet hall of famer but that doesnt mean anything. There are better players that are NOT in the hall than Clemente. So in a way it is a hall of SHAME!! I still see people listed Dave Parker items on ebay saying that Parker was one of the best all-around players the game has ever seen. I have to agree. In their primes Parker was better than both Stargell and Clemente and would have been the choice at right.

The six best OPS+ seasons posted by Stargell

186
185
167
164
163
163

A career .529 SLG%, OPS+ of 147, one of the all-time premier long-ball threats in the history of the game. Pops had six seasons of 30+ HRs.

Clemente's six best OPS+ seasons:

171
168
160
152
148
146

Slugged .475% in his career and his prime was in baseball's second "Dead Ball" Era. Career OPS+ of 130. That on top of his defensive reputation.

The Cobra's top six OPS+ seasons:

166
149
145
141
133
118

Parker slugged .471% in his career and had three seasons of more than 30 HR. His career OPS+ is 121.

Roberto Clemente is an overrated baseball player in many regards, and his early death - and the circumstances of that death - color his legacy more than a little. Nevertheless, he was a bona fide Hall of Famer and a superior player to Parker in sum.

For a few years in the 1970s, Dave Parker probably had a legit claim to being the best player in baseball. He ultimately forged a decent, borderline, case for the Hall of Fame - he is no first ballot talent.

OPS+ is no end-all, be-all, but I think that measurement does show that most of Parker's best seasons were no match for what Stargell and, yes, even Clemente had posted before him.

Parker fans are free to continue to insist the Cobra was better than both of the above, but almost all objective, reasonable, measures say otherwise.

Raines is no where in Hendersons league.

I don't agree, but maybe you are right and maybe he is not. Even so, Raines remains arguably the second-best by some margin. No shame there.

Tim Raines has a better Hall of Fame case, I think, than Dave Parker does.

But to each their own.

[sisyphus]

Again i disagree. Parker not Clemente had one of the strongest arms in baseball.

You are way, way, WAY off base there. I never saw anyone with an arm better than Clemente's. I can name several outfielders with better arms than Parker's, starting with Clemente, Colavito, and Mark Whiten, just to name three.

He was stronger and faster than Clemente. Parker also hit for more power than Clemente.

Yep, he was stronger, and slightly faster. He had a bit more home run power, but note that Clemente had the higher slugging percentage.

Clemente may be one of the best pirates of all time but to say he was one of the best players in baseball history is laughable. He is never mentioned among the greatest.

On the contrary, he is USUALLY mentioned among the greatest. And who besides yourself, pray tell, lists Dave Parker as being among the greatest players of all time?

Parker should have been a first ballet hall of famer but that doesnt mean anything.

LOL. Parker's case for the Hall is borderline at best, and this is coming from a Dave Parker fan.

There are better players that are NOT in the hall than Clemente.

Feel free to list them all.

So in a way it is a hall of SHAME!! I still see people listed Dave Parker items on ebay saying that Parker was one of the best all-around players the game has ever seen. I have to agree.

Yes, because they're trying to sell their Dave Parker souveniers. You're just about out of credibility now, you know.

[sisyphus]

Raines is no where in Hendersons league.

I know. That's why I said that Raines is the SECOND best leadoff hitter AFTER Henderson.

[frehleyscomet]

Feel free to list them all.



How about Pete Rose , Joe Jackson, and Mark Mcguire for starters.

[frehleyscomet]

Yes, because they're trying to sell their Dave Parker souveniers. You're just about out of credibility now, you know.


No because he was one of the best all-around players. Nice try though.

[frehleyscomet]

You are way, way, WAY off base there. I never saw anyone with an arm better than Clemente's. I can name several outfielders with better arms than Parker's, starting with Clemente, Colavito, and Mark Whiten, just to name three.



Yep, he was stronger, and slightly faster. He had a bit more home run power, but note that Clemente had the higher slugging percentage.



On the contrary, he is USUALLY mentioned among the greatest. And who besides yourself, pray tell, lists Dave Parker as being among the greatest players of all time?



LOL. Parker's case for the Hall is borderline at best, and this is coming from a Dave Parker fan.




Parker is first ballet material. To say he is borderline is just pure non-sense. Some of his stats are better than clemente's and stargell's. Show me where Clemente is listed as one of the best? Maybe top 50 but you can also make a case for Parker in the top 50 as well.

You are way off base to say that Clemente had a stronger arm than Parker. HE did not. Watch the 79 all-star game sometime. Clemente could only wish for an arm that strong.

[TheStringIsOut_NC]

Parker is first ballet material. To say he is borderline is just pure non-sense. Some of his stats are better than clemente's and stargell's. Show me where Clemente is listed as one of the best? Maybe top 50 but you can also make a case for Parker in the top 50 as well.

You are way off base to say that Clemente had a stronger arm than Parker. HE did not. Watch the 79 all-star game sometime. Clemente could only wish for an arm that strong.

I keep imagining Parker at the Bolshoi Theater, twirling, on his toes, then dodging off behind the curtain for a quick drag...

...he is no more "first ballet material" than he is first ballot material.

I'm curious, which of these three seasons is the best?


G R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB
147 103 209 26 10 23 110 9 1 41 103 .357 .400 .554 324
148 106 156 43 3 44 119 0 0 80 129 .299 .392 .646 337
148 102 194 32 12 30 117 20 7 57 92 .334 .394 .585 340

[maxcarey]

Come now, frehleyscomet , you are just picking an argument here. Re-read my post last page. In any way you wish to slice it, Clemente is better than Parker. It's not even really close.

From this point, it just seems that you are trying to keep a argument going when it is best to close it. I respect you are a Parker fan, but you aren't even keeping an open critical mind to keep the discussion moving.

[frehleyscomet]

Come now, frehleyscomet , you are just picking an argument here. Re-read my post last page. In any way you wish to slice it, Clemente is better than Parker. It's not even really close.

From this point, it just seems that you are trying to keep a argument going when it is best to close it. I respect you are a Parker fan, but you aren't even keeping an open critical mind to keep the discussion moving.


I have to brought up good points and facts. Parker was a pure all-around great player. If Clemente was better it wasnt by much.

[maxcarey]

I will respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment. It is clear that Parker is your favorite Pirate and that changing your opinion will not happen. Its just not strong enough argument to compare Parker favorably with Clemente.

[frehleyscomet]

I will respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment. It is clear that Parker is your favorite Pirate and that changing your opinion will not happen. Its just not strong enough argument to compare Parker favorably with Clemente.

It most certainly is strong enough. But i think your missing my point. Look at my top 5 pirates of all time list. I put Clemente ahead of Parker. My arguement is its not a very big gap between the two players. In some ways Parker was a better player than Clemente whether or not you will admit it.

[maxcarey]

There is nothing to admit because it simply is not true. There is nothing that Dave Parker did in his career that equalled or exceeded Roberto Clemente. Clemente had the edge in every conceiveable category, the statistics prove that.

[frehleyscomet]

There is nothing to admit because it simply is not true. There is nothing that Dave Parker did in his career that equalled or exceeded Roberto Clemente. Clemente had the edge in every conceiveable category, the statistics prove that.


Simply untrue. Parker exceeded Clemente in various categories.

[maxcarey]

Feel free to name them. He hit for higher average, was a better power hitter (higher slugging average and OPS+) was the better fielder, was the better baserunner, name it. There isn't anything I can think of where Parker "exceeded" Clemente except possibly HR and RBI, but as stated, Clemente had the higher slugging average, OPS+ and almost 300 more hits in his career.

Clemente is clearly and unoquivically superior in just about every facet of the game that Dave Parker. And again, it isn't even close.

It is clear that you are continuing this disucssion for one of two reasons; 1. Your fan loyalty to Dave Parker is clouding solid statistical evidence to the contrary or 2. You are just looking to argue for arguments sake.

[frehleyscomet]

The two players slugging is close to equal. .471-475. Parker had more homers, RBI, stolen bases, and extra base hits. They both won one MVP award but Parker was also runner-up in another season. Parker also finished in the top 5 in MVP voting more times than Clemente.

[maxcarey]

But still, Roberto is better than Parker and the power game is supposedly Parker's strongest suit. Parker also may have had more SB, but Clemente had a better stolen base percentage. And he also played one more year.

MVPs are not an accurate barometer of one's greatness. Zolio Versallies won an MVP, so did Jeff Burroughs. That does not indicate a players long-term greatness. However, if you want to include it as a measure, Clemente outperforms Parker there too, receiving MVP votes in 12 different seasons, with Parker in nine.

It still has not been demonstrated where Parker is even in Clemente's league.

[frehleyscomet]

In many ways Clemente is not in Parkers league. Parker was the better all-around player. Stolen base % means nothing. Clemente was slower and Parker had a stronger arm. Clemente was a better base hitter but Parker had more extra base hits. Overall in both of their primes Parker was the better athlete and should have won 2 MVP's.

[maxcarey]

You are wrong and I challenge you to find anyone that will agree with that assessment. Your theses are bording on just plain ignorance and I will not continue to play this game with you any further. All the best to you.

[frehleyscomet]

No you are the one who is full of ignorance because you are avoiding the facts. Clemente was a great player. I have him 3rd on my list of best Pirates of all time. But in some ways Parker was a better player and a better athlete. Plain and simple.

[Sooperdon]

The Flying Dutchman and Patchy from Spongebob Squarepants.:rofl:

[buccofan21]

current Steve Pearce, Freddy, McCouth.

all time- Clemente, Stargell, Mazeroski, Andy Van Slyk, Bobby Bonia, Jay Bell, Manny Sanguine.

[Bennybosox]

Sean Burnett