Hideki Matsui for his career in Japan?

[bluejaysfan4ever]

The HOF doesn't just cover the MLB.

His career in Japan:

Games: 1268
AB: 4572
Hits: 1390
AVG: .304
Home runs: 332

[Bronxbombers]

That is nice and dandy, but in my opinion Japanese stats can not be viewed in the same light as MLB stats. What 300 japanese homers means in terms of mlb homers is unknown. Japanese pitching and competiton is simply not in the same league as MLB pitching, and therefore his numbers can not be considered especially impressive. All I know for sure about Matsui, is that by MLB standards, he is a borderline All Star caliber player, who is more of a pure hitter than a power hitter, which the Japanese stats would not dictate.

[KCGHOST]

Some people like to add Japanese stats to a player's total, but I don't.

[CROM]

matsui is a stat producer..

03,04,05 would have been his 10th, 11th, and 12th seasons if he would have played in the bigs his entire career.. in those 3 seasons he averaged 100 runs, 180 hits, 40 doubles, 23 home runs, 109 RBIs, 72 walks and a .295 batting average.. not to mention he didnt miss a game during those 3 seasons.

he may not hit 50 homeruns like he did his last season in japan but he still puts up great offensive numbers.. i think his success in the united states ( if anything) validates his success in japan.. therefor his stats from his playing days in japan should be considered..


thats just my opinion

[Captain Cold Nose]

The HOF doesn't just cover the MLB.

His career in Japan:

Games: 1268
AB: 4572
Hits: 1390
AVG: .304
Home runs: 332
The HOF pretty much covers baseball played on this continent, otherwise there would be a plethora of Japanese players in already. Whether that's wrong or not has been discussed ad nauseum.

[leecemark]

--If Matsui were something close to a Hall of famer player based on what he has done (or will do before he is finished) in MLB than his Japanese accomplishments would put him over the top for me. However, he has not been anything close to a Hall of Famer since coming over. His power took a big enough dip that his 300 Japanese HR clearly have to been severely discounted.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Matsui's Japanese numbers should only be taken into consideration if he has a 10-12 year HoF quality major league career. But his Japanese numbers shouldn't be "added" to his major league numbers.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

--If Matsui were something close to a Hall of famer player based on what he has done (or will do before he is finished) in MLB than his Japanese accomplishments would put him over the top for me. However, he has not been anything close to a Hall of Famer since coming over. His power took a big enough dip that his 300 Japanese HR clearly have to been severely discounted.
Yes, his power in the major leagues has been a disapppointment. He had just 16 HRs in his first season. But he practically doubled that to 31 HRs in his second season so I thought that he had adjusted and would produce 35-40 HR seasons after that. But that has not been the case. Power is the one thing that really drops when the Japanese players come over. Sinjo and Ichiro were 25+ HR guys in Japan but they became punch-and-judy hitters in the majors.

[jalbright]

Matsui's Japanese homers, as best I can figure, are worth a tad more than 200 major league homers. Then, as leecemark said, he hasn't looked much like a HOFer over here, so unless he has an exceptionally long career, I can't see it for him, even giving him what I believe would be his due for what he did in Japan (and I'm certainly one of the prime advocates of the cause of the Japanese).

Jim Albright

[leecemark]

--Jim, what was Matsui's HR pace in comparison to Oh's? Was he a legit challenger to Oh's standing as the Japanese HR champ had he stayed there? If not, did he have a good shot at finishing as the 2nd best HR man in Japanese history?

[CROM]

--Jim, what was Matsui's HR pace in comparison to Oh's? Was he a legit challenger to Oh's standing as the Japanese HR champ had he stayed there? If not, did he have a good shot at finishing as the 2nd best HR man in Japanese history?


in 9 seasons in japan he had 332 homeruns.. roughly 37 a year average..

[jalbright]

Actually, while he did hit 332 homers, it was in 9 1/2 seasons, his first season being 57 games played. His second and third best years in Japan were 42 and 42. At that pace, he'd have needed nearly 13 years to catch Oh. Not likely. Second place is Katsuya Nomura at 657. If we take his average pace in his nine full seasons there (35.7), he'd need just a little over nine seasons to make it. That would have been doable, I think. Third place would be even easier, since Hiromitsu Kadota holds that spot with 567. It would have only taken just over 6 1/2 seasons at the average pace of his complete seasons to make that level, and I would say he would have been likely to accomplish at least that.

Jim Albright

[Mattingly]

Without looking much at his stats, I'd say he's a fine hitter. However, with all the hoopla surrounding him (the Japanese press at Yankee Stadium were there for him, not the Yanks), I'd say that since he was considered the Japanese equivalent of Michael Jordan (perhaps due to his popularity), I'd have expected someone to hit as well as David Ortiz or Manny Ramirez.

He's pretty good defensively, throws the ball back quickly, but I wouldn't consider him a top defensive player. Unless, upon his return (likely in September), he performs at a top level, I can't see his Japanese numbers supporting his cause. To me, if you cite someone's numbers overseas, then that should complement his MLB numbers, not be the best reason for his induction. It's as if you need 66-2/3% to get someone over the top and you have only 60-65%, so the international stats put him over the top. Right now, I don't think he's performed as a top hitter in MLB.

Very good hitter, but he's had a few cold points where he's primarily hit groundouts to 2B. Others, he's been on serious fire. If in 2007-08, he's put up a .900-1.000+ OPS, 30 dingers, 100+ RBI, plays well defensively, I may look more fondly upon him, given that he plays 10-12 years in MLB.

[Skin & Bones]

Some people like to add Japanese stats to a player's total, but I don't.

I Agree with this.

[GiambiJuice]

Matsui had more opportunities to drive in runs than any other major leaguer last season. Don't be fooled by gaudy RBI totals. He is a slightly above average major league player. The biggest thing he had going for him (until this year) was his endurance.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

--Jim, what was Matsui's HR pace in comparison to Oh's? Was he a legit challenger to Oh's standing as the Japanese HR champ had he stayed there? If not, did he have a good shot at finishing as the 2nd best HR man in Japanese history?
Oh's HRs by age:

19-7 (7)
20-17 (24)
21-13 (37)
22-38 (75)
23-40 (115)
24-55 (170)
25-42 (212)
26-48 (260)
27-47 (307)
28-49 (356)
29-44 (400)
30-47 (447)
31-39 (486)
32-48 (534)
33-51 (585)
34-49 (634)
35-33 (667)
36-49 (716)
37-50 (766)
38-39 (805)
39-33 (838)
40-30 (868)

[sturg1dj]

I think eventually there may be a section for Japanese and other overseas players (if there isn't already)

but to truly get in I think they would need the VC

Ichiro would have the best shot though. Matsui though could if he puts together something like 5 more great seasons.

Now I am about to say something, and nobody get mad......but, I think Matsui, Ichiro and maybe some others should be treated like negro leaguers like Monte Irvin and Larry Doby....now hear me out.....

I am not saying the same level of racism is happening, but Matsui and Ichiro played for years in Japan and nobody signed them. ANYONE could have had them. It wasn't until an import had a good season (Hideo Nomo) that people started to look there. They don't have to deal with the same things that Doby or Irvin did, but they were ignored for years. Was it there fault that nobody signed them? Both Matsui and Ichiro had some HUGE seasons in Japan. Matsui came past his peak even.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think eventually there may be a section for Japanese and other overseas players (if there isn't already)

but to truly get in I think they would need the VC

Ichiro would have the best shot though. Matsui though could if he puts together something like 5 more great seasons.

Now I am about to say something, and nobody get mad......but, I think Matsui, Ichiro and maybe some others should be treated like negro leaguers like Monte Irvin and Larry Doby....now hear me out.....

I am not saying the same level of racism is happening, but Matsui and Ichiro played for years in Japan and nobody signed them. ANYONE could have had them. It wasn't until an import had a good season (Hideo Nomo) that people started to look there. They don't have to deal with the same things that Doby or Irvin did, but they were ignored for years. Was it there fault that nobody signed them? Both Matsui and Ichiro had some HUGE seasons in Japan. Matsui came past his peak even.
Nobody signed then because there were rules in place to stop the majors from signing them. Nomo had to use a subtle loophole in the rules to leave Japan. I believe a player in Japan needs 9-10 years of service before they can become eligible for free agency. Jim Albright knows more about this than I do.

[leecemark]

--Matsui was 28 (a few months away from his 29th birthday) when he made his MLB debut. For a power hitter than should be just entering their prime. His decline in power is all about bigger parks and better pitching, not age. He may have lost a step in the field from his younger days in Japan though.

[sturg1dj]

well I didn't mention a decline in power, in fact I believe he has shown that he may have been a power hitter in Japan, but here he is just a great hitter.

[leecemark]

--GREAT seems a tad generous in describing Matsui as a major league hitter.

[DoubleX]

Matsui proved that Ichiro was no fluke - that the Japanese play a high quality of baseball and can succeed in the Majors. However, while I believe that Ichiro is proceeding towards the Hall, I think Matsui, at best, will be a prominent footnote in the recognization of the talent in Japanese baseball and the eventual proliferation of Japanese players in the Majors.

Jim, is there a Hall of Fame in Japan? I'm assuming their is.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Matsui proved that Ichiro was no fluke - that the Japanese play a high quality of baseball and can succeed in the Majors. However, while I believe that Ichiro is proceeding towards the Hall, I think Matsui, at best, will be a prominent footnote in the recognization of the talent in Japanese baseball and the eventual proliferation of Japanese players in the Majors.

Jim, is there a Hall of Fame in Japan? I'm assuming their is.
Very Good player and Godzilla is a very large footnote in baseball history but HoFer? I think not unless he defies expectations. Right of the top of my head without much research on the subject he's probably a top 5 Japanese player to play in the MLB.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Matsui proved that Ichiro was no fluke - that the Japanese play a high quality of baseball and can succeed in the Majors. However, while I believe that Ichiro is proceeding towards the Hall, I think Matsui, at best, will be a prominent footnote in the recognization of the talent in Japanese baseball and the eventual proliferation of Japanese players in the Majors.
The WBC also showed the high level of play that Japan plays.


Jim, is there a Hall of Fame in Japan? I'm assuming their is.
I'm not Jim but there is a Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame.

http://english.baseball-museum.or.jp/index.html

[jalbright]

Yes, the Japanese have their own HOF, but it's even more idiosyncratic than our own. I've posted a link to the English version of the site in the International Forum, the stickied Japanese info thread. Players aren't eligible if coaching and even then aren't eligible for 15 years after they finish playing IIRC. They honor high schoolers and collegians along with the pros, and also have inducted what by our standards would be an unconscionable number of team/league executive types. Happy Chandler, Ford Frick and Bowie Kuhn would be in their Hall, and Bud Selig would follow.

I would expect Hideki Matsui to make that Hall, and he deserves to, given that far lesser Japanese pros have.

Jim Albright

[DoubleX]

The WBC also showed the high level of play that Japan plays.

Indeed. I hope the tournament continues in the future, as I think it will really help to spread the game and raise the talent level overseas. Look at basketball, for example. 10-15 years ago, it was pretty much just us, and perhaps Russia at that time. But with the introduction of professionals into the Olympics, and international competitons that feature professionals, such as the tournament now being played, the game has really taken off all over the world, and not just in popularity, but in the level of talent. IMO, there is really no better way to celebrate a sport than to showcase it on an international level.