Little League, Inc. Unfairness

[NotAboutEgo]

Little League, Inc. has started a boy's softball program in addition to the boys' baseball program that has been around for years, but it has failed to start a girls' baseball program. The org. has been contacted by people regarding this. It claims there is not enough interest on the part of girls' to start a girls' baseball program, but there is enough interest in softball on the part of boys' to start a boys' softball program.

Following is an article by John Kovach, one such person who is trying to end the discrimination of Little League, Inc.


A Tarnished Diamond: How Little League Discriminates Against Female Baseball Players

"Little League Baseball does not limit participation in its activities on the basis of disability, race, creed, color, national origin, gender, sexual preference, or religious preference." ---- Little League, Inc. Handbook

A statement like the above might give you that warm, fuzzy feeling or the urge to sing, "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" however, I think Little League players and their parents need to take a closer look to see if that statement really rings true!

For example, let's say you have a son who wants to play softball. The Little League, Inc, website will show you that SEPARATE softball programs exist for boys and girls ages eight to 18. However, if you have a daughter who wants to play baseball, the Little League website lists just "Baseball". There is no separate division for girls. If your daughter wants to play baseball, the only way she can play is on a mixed team. Hmmm.....That sure sounds like discrimination to me!

When did Little League start offering boy's softball, but not girl's baseball you might ask? In 2000, Little League stated that there were,"...between 500 and 1,000 boys who played softball in various divisions." In 2001 the boys softball program began play. During the 2002 season, a request was made to Little League as to the number of females who were playing baseball "in various divisions." Little League replied that, "those numbers were unavailable."

In 2004, there were over 100 girls playing baseball on "various divisions" in a 50-mile radius of South Bend, Indiana. Now if multiplied, even conservatively, how many thousands of girls in the United States are playing baseball in Little League? Should they not also have the SAME opportunity to play baseball within their gender group as boys who CAN play softball in their own program?

The softball program for boys was created in a relatively short period of time (less than three months) and yet, when asked if LIttle League was preparing to create a girl's baseball program, their answer was that they, "didn't want to give a false sense of optimism that the idea of a female Little League Baseball program will be developed." You would think that a program that has thousands of players versus one that has just a thousand or so might merit the creation of its own program. But apparently, this is not the case!

The softball program that was created in 1974 for girls did give them an athletic opportunity that had not existed on such a large scale. However, it was at best a smokescreen to cover-up the fact that Little League oficials DID NOT want girls to play baseball! This "new opportunity" was meant to keep them off the baseball diamond. Otherwise, at the time the softball division was created for boys, the sensible thing would have been to have created baseball divisions for girls!

In most cases, if you go to a Little League sign-up, girls or their parents are not even asked, "Baseball or softball?" Players or parents are just handed the softball form. I've seen firsthand at sign-ups if a girl or their parents ask for a baseball form, they often get an odd look and are questioned to see if that's "really what they want to do?"

Finally, if a girl finally does make it to the baseball field despite all that, they face rude comments from parents of her own teammates and more often from the parents or opposing players who don't understand why "that girl isn't playing softball". The longer the girls stay on mixed teams, the more difficult it becomes because of the harrassment. There are fra too many stories of players (even Olympic stars) who left baseball for softball because there would be less hassle.

That is just not right. The right to play baseball is not an inherently male activity. It's a societal view that unfortunately is reinforced by not having a separate baseball program through Little League.

If those perceptions are to change, they have to start with the youth program of Little League. Who better to take the bold step forward for girls wanting to play baseball than the organization that has had baseball as its foundation. Anything less than a SEPARATE girl's baseball program is a HUGE strike three not only for females but for the rest of humanity as well!

For more infomation about how you can help, please email: Knucksie1@aol.com .


You can contact Little League, Inc. directly:

1) Email the Little League Director for your region and Little League CEO Steve Keener to voice your opinion about wanting a girl's only baseball program. Be sure to stress that IF there are not enough girls to form a team that they can still play baseball on a mixed basis (according to the Little League officials, the boys DO NOT have that option built into their softball program....If there are not enough boys for a softball team, they CANNOT play on a girls team. They have to play baseball or not play at all).

2) On your correspondances to the regional folks and the CEO, please cc your letter also to me at Knucksie1@aol.com (John Kovach). That way, should I ever need to point of specific letters, I will also have a copy for the record. Thanks :)!

Email Addresses:
Eastern Region Director: Don Soucy dsoucy@littleleague.org
Central Region Director: Steve Sorenson ssorenson@littleleague.org
Southern Region Director: Jennifer Colvin jcolvin@littleleague.org
Southwestern Regional Director: Mike Witherwax mwitherwax@littleleague.org
Western Region Director: Jim Gerstenslager jgerstenslager@littleleague.org
CEO: Stephen Keener skeener@littleleague.org


SURVEY SHOWS STRONG INTEREST IN 'GIRLS ONLY' BASEBALL

"If it's offered, they will come," according to AAU Girls Baseball chairperson John Kovach.

During the summer of 2005, Kovach surveyed over 400 parents in a three state region (Indiana, Illinois and Michigan) to see what reaction there would be if Little League, inc. would offer a separate baseball program for girls. The parents all had girls who were participating in sanctioned Little League softball programs above the Instructional League level.

The results are something that Little League needs to take notice of according to Kovach. "While girls can play baseball within the framework of Little League, the participation numbers would increase dramatically if they were allowed to participate in an all-girls program according to what we saw from the survey," he went on to say. "Unfortunately," said Kovach, "as a society it's silly to see how we in the US accept females playing football, hockey and boxing. However, the idea of girls playing the national pastime seems to not be in the mainstream of thought."

According to Kovach, the survey took pace due to the volume of emails from girls and or their parents from across the US (over the past three winters) who want to play or have their daughters play baseball with and against other girls. "Many of these contacts refer to players who are 12 years of age and older. It's a proven fact that competition-wise and socially, having the boys and girls competing separately is better," stated Kovach.

Here how the numbers stacked up for the survey: Nearly all of the parents (98.2%) said that their daughters were not asked "Baseball or Softball" when they went to their local sign-ups. The assumption, according to Kovach is that females play softball and males play baseball, when in essence it should be made aware to the athlete and parent that they do have a choice.

Over 99% (99.1%) of those surveyed did not realize that Little League offers a separate softball program for boys.

Nearly 88% (87.4) said that they would support the creation of a "girls-only" baseball program for Little League and of those questioned, 37.8% said that if a baseball program for girls was available that their daughters would opt to play baseball instead of softball. While parents did say that if there were not enough girls in a community who wanted to play baseball, in that case, they would be more accepting of still letting them play on teams with mostly boys, although that would not be their first choice.

"That's a significant percentage, even if it is not as high for the rest of the US" said Kovach. "I think that's where Little League really misses the boat. Not only would those girls be staying in Little League, they would also draw back those who may have left the program. If there are 400,000 girls playing softball and if 10% of them would rather play baseball, that's 40,000 happier players and parents. In terms of marketing, can you imagine how much more elevated the stature of Little League would be in terms of being the ONLY youth baseball and softball organization to offer separate programs in each sport for both genders," he added.
:grouchy :confused: :ughh :mad: :grouchy

[bluezebra]

Little League unfair to girls? You really think so? How many years was LL in existence before setting up a girls' softball division? How many years was LL playing BOYS ONLY baseball, before girls were allowed in? The first LL Softball rule books were just copies of the baseball books, with (I believe) five exceptions:

1..Played by girls.
2..Runners out if leaving their base too soon.
3..Underhand pitching.
4..12" ball.
5..Dirt infield, with no mound.

Bob

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The author is using some liberal assumptions based on some numbers he has for one geographical area of the country. I'm not really sure why LL is starting a boys softball league. But from my experience, in a large metropolitan area like Houston as well as a very small area like my present home, there aren't enough girls to start their own baseball program.

We presently combine all of our youngsters in the t-ball division. After that, girls are free to pursue softball in a girls only league or they can play baseball with the boys. We had just one girl in our majors level this past season (out of 48 kids). The numbers weren't that different in Houston five years ago or so when I lived there as we had about 1-in-40 girls-to-boys who wanted to play baseball. There were huge softball programs, both LL and ASA, for girls.

Like I said, I can't imagine there are enough boys to really crank up a softball league, so I'm not sure how that will stand up in the end. But based on what I've seen, there also aren't enough girls to support a baseball program on their own. Adding the boys softball might be wrong, but starting a girls baseball program won't make it right.

[NotAboutEgo]

So, have you personally tried starting a girls' baseball program/league to personally experience that there aren't enough girls' interested in playing baseball in a league of their own? You are making the same assumptions as what you are accusing... based on seeing only 1 girl sign up out of 48 kids means there is NO interest in your area or Houston for that matter for starting a girls' league. Is that ANY DIFFERENT than saying that Kovach is using some liberal numbers based on his region???

Do you think that perhaps the way girls are treated when they want/try to play baseball on boys' teams may have something to do with why not many are signing up on boys' teams? Are you a female who has experienced some of the harassment and bashing that does happen in many of these cases?

I find it very hard to believe that girls are very interested in playing most any sport EXCEPT for baseball. Maybe you should try speak from more sound experiences rather than from assumptions.

[NotAboutEgo]

Little League unfair to girls? You really think so?

So, because LL has catered to boys from the beginning while not at all providing girls' programs until later, does that make it right and fair? Do you even know the history of LL? Do you know ANYTHING about the history of baseball, let alone the history of women's baseball?

Softball is NOT a viable replacement for baseball. What would you say to thousands of girls across the country who say they want to play baseball and NOT softball?

I can see where your mindset is. Your post only adds to the sexism and discrimination.

[PopTop]

What would you say to thousands of girls across the country who say they want to play baseball and NOT softball?I'd tell them signup is such-&-such date, we have divisions based on age, not gender, and they're welcome to play baseball, period, not girls baseball, but just baseball.

BlueSteve knows more about youth leagues and Little League than you realize, NAE. And I am speaking from my own experiences within Little League baseball. If you're so keen to prove us wrong, then get outside next spring, don the equipment of an umpire, and squat behind the plate for 200+ pitches a game. Quit turning everything into some discrimination suit and get in the real game.

[Ubiquitous]

If their is a market for girls baseball then go out there and do it. Why does one need little league inc. to have it done? You don't need a national base or even a state base to do it. You need a park, some equipment, some volunteers, and the girls to do it. The first are readily available, so what is stopping girls baseball from happening?

[NotAboutEgo]

I am doing it... am in the process of starting a girls' league with other people, so it will happen. I never said anyone needs LL to have it done, but when they state in their handbook that they don't deny anyone the right to play, even based on sex, and when they create a boys' softball league but not a girls' baseball league, that sounds like discrimination to me. Do you think there is more interest for boys to play softball than there is for girls to play abseball? Why should girls' always have to play on boys' teams to get any opportunity to play?

I have tried working with city parks and rec departments to open up the doors for girls to play baseball in their own leagues, but most are opposed to it, or they say they wouldn't make enough money from it, so it ends up at a dead end road. Some cities/leagues even state that girls can't play baseball and have to play softball. Those types of things are some of the barriers that stand in the way of girls' baseball from growing and happening in many areas.

I guess if a majority of people decided to start opening up more doors for girls to play baseball and started excluding boys from playing, it would be a much different story and would breed much different opinions (of course, this scenario would be wrong, too).


If you're so keen to prove us wrong, then get outside next spring, don the equipment of an umpire, and squat behind the plate for 200+ pitches a game. Quit turning everything into some discrimination suit and get in the real game.

I don't need to don the equipment of an umpire to know and realize there is a market for girls' baseball. I have done several baseball clinics with thousands of kids and with at least half of them being girls in just proper Detroit alone. I know from first-hand experience the response and amount of girls who really want to play baseball and who ask if there are any girls'/women's leagues and if there are any pro women's leagues like MLB.

I and others will prove you wrong... no doubt about that. Being behind the plate in boys' baseball games gives you only one perspective of what's going on. Have you seen or heard of any boys' softball leagues in your area?

[cartersball]

Very interesting thread here. Let me bring in some real life experiences. I am a parent, coach, and board member at our local Little League. This season we had 768 kids from ages 5 - 16 sign up to play. Of that number, only 121 girls signed up to play softball. We had two girls playing baseball. This is almost the smallest our softball program has ever been. We live in a diverse area with almost the same amount of girls in this age range. The girls who have been in the program a few years started a "club" to increase membership in the softball program. They went out and talked to younger girls in thier schools, at other sports functions, and even in Girl Scouts. They held many informational meetings and even organized a softball clinic, but the numbers are still dwindling. I would like to get your take on this. Why do you think the interest in softball/baseball is dropping for the girls?

[Ubiquitous]

Well is it dropping for boys as well?

[Erik Bedard]

My baseball league tried to set up a girls' division, but got a grand total of four entries.

This is an actual, real-life experience, which I know of because my cousin was one of the four entries.

I think you misunderstood bluezebra's post. He was just saying that Little League has always been unfair to girls, and that this is nothing new.

[KCGHOST]

This is truly a tempest in a teapot. Just because a group wants to sponsor a boys athletic organization doesn't obligate them to offer a girls version. Its not sexist nor discriminatory. They aren't doing anything to prevent others from starting up a corresponding girls organization.

[NotAboutEgo]

I think you misunderstood bluezebra's post. He was just saying that Little League has always been unfair to girls, and that this is nothing new.

Doesn't mean that this is the case everywhere. How big is the area you live in? How was it projected that there was a sign up for a girls' baseball league? Many factors affect this type of thing and come into play, and it's not just from the non-interest of girls that is the culprit. Also, stereotypes and discrimination do affect these kinds of things. It could be that not many people knew about the effort of trying to start a girls' division.

Speaking from experience, it takes many avenues to get the word out about a new program of any type, and it takes time and committed effort from many people, not just from one or two. Why have girls' baseball leagues been very successful in other areas? Why do many areas of Canada NOT have trouble getting girls signed up into their girls' baseball leagues? Toronto has a very successful youth girls' (it has been expanded into a women's league as well) baseball program that has been around for 10 years. Why has the Pawtucket Slaterettes all-girls' baseball league in Rhode Island been successful for OVER 30 years if there is no interest in girls' baseball?

[Astro]

There is no separate division for girls. If your daughter wants to play baseball, the only way she can play is on a mixed team. Hmmm.....That sure sounds like discrimination to me!

How is that discrimination? Does the website say: "Boys Baseball" and that is it? No it says "Baseball"

Discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [Source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn]

How is it unfair to ANYONE if they have a "Baseball" League? We can flip the script on this and say that if you have a son that wants to play baseball, the only way he can play is on a mixed team... is that discrimination to you aswell?

[Ubiquitous]

Their is a saying it goes: "All politics are local"

The same can be said for many things. In Texas Dr. Pepper is big, in the north not so much. You'll find in people of such a vast land and economic scale many inconsistencies. The northeast tends to have a very strong attachment to baseball, and has shown to support many levels of baseball. Other parts of the country not so much. Just because it works in one area doesn't mean it will work in others. For example Texas and California have strong youth baseball yet northern cities have weak programs. Just because it works in Texas doesn't mean it will work in Chicago. Different factors are occurring

[NotAboutEgo]

We can flip the script on this and say that if you have a son that wants to play baseball, the only way he can play is on a mixed team... is that discrimination to you aswell?

Has anyone ever experienced that... the only way a boy can play baseball is on a mixed team? The point here is that would be wrong as well, but has that ever happened? I very highly doubt it, so there is no case for that. Have girls ever been told they can't play baseball just because they are girls? It has happened hundreds of times over and over... and that is discrimination... Discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [Source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn]

The reason it says "Baseball" as opposed to boys' baseball is... because there is NO girls' baseball program. Why does it say "Girls' Softball" and "Boys' Softball" but it only says "Baseball"? If that isn't discrimination, I don't know what is and why one can't clearly see it.


In Texas Dr. Pepper is big, in the north not so much. You'll find in people of such a vast land and economic scale many inconsistencies. The northeast tends to have a very strong attachment to baseball, and has shown to support many levels of baseball. Other parts of the country not so much. Just because it works in one area doesn't mean it will work in others.

Exactly... but, is it OK for someone to say to another person that they can't drink Dr. Pepper just because of their sex or ethnic background or because of their skin color? Would it be OK for DR. Pepper to be sold ONLY to white people but not to others who like it?

[Ubiquitous]

Well actually what you are asking for is segregation. Baseball isn't sold only to boys. Girls can play baseball too. What you are asking for is for this organization to provide something only for girls. It is like asking Dr. Pepper to come up with a soda only whites can drink. They can still sell Dr. Pepper to everybody but this particular will only be sold to whites.

[NotAboutEgo]

No, I'm not asking for LL to provide something ONLY to girls. I'm asking that LL provide to girls the same things it provides to boys... an all-girls' baseball division along with its already existing boys' baseball division. Why does LL provide an all-boys' baseball division and an all-boys' softball division, but it only provides girls with an all-girls' softball division? Do you not see how that is gender discrimination at its best? Why is an all-boys' softball division and an all-boys' baseball division NOT seen as segregation but girls wanting their own baseball division to play with their closest peers is seen as segregation? Seems that you need to sort things out a bit more.

[Ubiquitous]

Well it seems to me that LL has already provided you with that answer, and several people here have seconded that answer. You find that unacceptable, and I can understand and accept that view. But LL isn't some local organization it is a national organization that thinks on a larger scale then simply one town here and one town there. Girls baseball might very well work in your area but that doesn't mean it is a practical venue on a national scale which is how LL is looking at it.

[Astro]

Has anyone ever experienced that... the only way a boy can play baseball is on a mixed team?
They are experiencing it now, it is a mixed league.... it is not a Boy's league where Girls are allowed, nor is it a Girl's league where Boys are allowed

[NotAboutEgo]

Girls baseball might very well work in your area but that doesn't mean it is a practical venue on a national scale which is how LL is looking at it.

So, are you saying that boys' softball is SO popular on a national level that LL feels it necessary to provide boys with a softball division? I don't know of ANY boy under 18 who plays softball and have never heard of an overwhelming interest in it on the part of boys'. Also, does girls' baseball have to be popular in EVERY city in the U.S. to provide to girls their own division? If just 20 cities across the U.S. can support girls' baseball divisions, isn't that enough to show there is interest in girls baseball? Let's see... 20 cities... 50 states... not even one city from half the states in the country... seems pretty feasable to me. How many areas of the U.S. have boys' youth softball?

Has LL ever tried to start a girls' baseball division?

[Ubiquitous]

I'm not LL, you are asking questions on cold hard fact that nobody here has the figures too. Perhaps LL has done the research, they claim they have seen what demand their is for both.

Nor do I understand your statement about how you don't know any boy under the age of 18 who wantes to play softball. Earlier in the thread you derided those posters who shared the same anecdotal feelings towards girls baseball. you can't have it both ways.

[NotAboutEgo]

How can you not understand something I have experienced... I absolutely don't personally know any boy under 18 who wants to play softball. And, I don't want it both ways. Seems that the ones who have posted on here saying there is no interest in girls' baseball are the ones who want it both ways. Why is it that their opinion about girls not wanting to play baseball and therefore, girls' baseball doesn't exist, is given so much clout as to what is really happening out there? It's no different than what I have stated, so why do you think there is not enough interest across the country to start girls' baseball leagues and divisions just because it didn't fly in one area? Perhaps there are boys out there who would rather play softball. I don't know that, but someone who has looked into the facts has found that LL is committing gender discrimination based on those facts. What I do know is... there are PLENTY of girls who want to play baseball and who are still denied the opportunity to do so. LL is just one example of this sort of thing happening.

Why would the AAU sanction girls' and women's baseball, and why would USA Baseball start sanctioning a women's national team to play in international women's baseball events if females aren't interested in playing baseball?


HISTORY / INFO ABOUT OUR LEAGUE

WHO ARE THE SLATERETTES?

HOW OUR LEAGUE WORKS

The Slaterettes are an all girls baseball league (not softball), for girls ages

5 to 70. We are located in Pawtucket, Rhode Island. We will celebrate our 30th

year anniversary in the Spring of 2003. The league consists of four divisions, the

Instructional Division for ages 5-7, the Minor Division for ages 8-10, the Junior

Division for ages 11-13, and the Major Division ages 14 to 70??. In the

Instructional division, the girls are taught the basics of baseball on an Instructional

size field, hit off a tee, and are pitched to by their coaches if ready. The Minor

division plays on a modified little league field (35 ft mound), with players that

pitch, and play with modified rules. The Junior division plays regulation little league

baseball, with some modified rules. The Major division plays on a Pony

field (80 ft base path, 54 ft mound) with some modified Major League Baseball

rules. The Instructional, Minor and Junior divisions play from late April thru

June 30th, the Major division plays from late June thru the middle of August.


THE HISTORY OF OUR LEAGUE

Our league began in 1973, when a girl named Alison "Pookie" Fortin (9 yrs old),

wanted to play baseball. So her parents signed her up. She attempted to challenge

the gender barrier by trying out for a spot in the Pawtucket all boys Darlington

American Little League (DALL). They refused to let her play simply because

she was a girl. When she was denied, she and her family set the little league

community abuzz by taking the DALL to court. Pookie never played for DALL,

but her and her family's persistence led other female athletes and parents in

Pawtucket to realize there should be an all girls hardball league for them to play

in. That year Pookie's parents banded together with Paul and Eveline Engelhardt,

and several other parents and created "A League of Their Own", in which Pookie

and every other girl that wanted to play baseball, could play in.

The league was originally called the Darlington Pioneers, an all girls hardball

league between the ages of 10 and 16. The Engelhart’s moved on after the

league's maiden season. The following year Peggy Massaro took over as

President. She worked with a new group of parents including Al Vaslet, whose

daughter Valerie, was one of the founding players. Valerie now coaches a team

and her two daughters play in the league. Although the league name, Darlington

Pioneers, couldn't have been a more fitting name, the new group of parents sat

down and did some brainstorming and came up with the Pawtucket Slaterettes.


WHAT IS A SLATERETTE?

Slaterettes may not have been as direct as Pioneers, in suggesting the league as

a frontier for girls sports, but the inspiration for the Slaterettes name came from

the Slater Mill located in Pawtucket, which pioneered the Industrial Revolution.

The Slaterette name was also derived from the Pawtucket Slaters, a

Professional Men's Baseball Team that played at McCoy Stadium. That

team is now know as the Pawtucket Red Sox (the Boston Red Sox Triple A

farm team).


THE FUTURE OF WOMEN'S BASEBALL

In 1993, the publicity that followed the release of the movie "A League of

Our Own", created a great interest and push for women’s baseball. The

movie, based on the old All American Girls Professional Baseball League

(AAGPBL), which disbanded in 1954, spawned the creation of the

Colorado Silver Bullets, an all women’s professional baseball team. Over he past

few years the publicity from the Silver Bullets has fueled the growth of women’s

amateur and Professional baseball around the world. Even though the Silver

Bullets have disbanded, women now play on more than 30 teams across the

USA, and the sport is even larger and growing even faster in Japan, Canada

and Australia.


Special thanks go out to Jim Glennie from the United States Women's Baseball

League (USWB). He has help link together these teams from around the world.

Their main goal is to try to get women's baseball added as an Olympic sport for

the 2008 or 2012 Olympics. He is also trying to promote the growth of girls

youth baseball. Visit his web site at:

http://www.uswb.org/ OR http://www.womenplayingbaseball.com

Also founded recently was the Women's Baseball League, Inc., (WBL) it was

founded to present opportunities for all women of all ages, who enjoy playing

the game of baseball. Housed in Cleveland, Ohio, the WBL was formed in

1997 by Justine Siegal. In the summer of 1999, the WBL began its inaugural

season in Beachwood, OH with a four-team league. In 2000, WBL turned its

focus nationally. Women's Baseball League, Inc. is building the future. Tired of

waiting for opportunities to play, the WBL is building them. Founder, Justine

Siegal, has an extra motivation to ensure that girls have a place to play baseball.

You may visit their web site and on line magazine at:

http://www.baseballglory.com


In 2002, a huge development for girls baseball came about when the WBL

announced an alliance between the WBL and the American Athletic Union

(AAU) to sanction and promote the growth of girls baseball in the USA.

AAU also announced it wants to use the Slaterettes as their model for forming

girls baseball leagues nationwide.


In early 2002 Tom Giffen, President of Roy Hobbs Baseball, annouced that the

United States Womens Baseball League (USWBL), Roy Hobb's Baseball, the

Women's Baseball League (WBL) and the American Athletic Union (AAU)

would create an alliance to form a nationwide womens baseball league, with the

ultimate goal of getting womens baseball part of the 2008 or 2012 Olympics,

and creating Team USA. Visit the Roy Hobbs web site at:

http://www.royhobbs.com


WHAT ARE THE SLATERETTES GOALS?

Until recently, the Slaterettes girls had no further options for playing baseball

after turning 18 years old. Because of the huge interest in women’s adult baseball

across the world and from our own former players, the league has decided to

allow Adult women (19 years old and up) to play in our Senior Division, now

known as our Major Division. This now provides all our players the opportunity

to play baseball for as long as they wish. The league has also decided to form an

adult tournament team, ages 14 and up. These players will be required to be

AAU members, as all tournaments beginning in 2003 will be AAU sanctioned.

The tournament team will participate in local tournaments and play scrimmage

games against other local women's baseball leagues in the area.


We have been looking many years for other all girl’s teams to play, that fall into

our age groups. Thanks to the recent alliance mentioned above, we are hoping

girls baseball will grow in the USA and we will have other girls teams to play

against. Girls baseball is huge in Japan, Canada and Australia. Someday if

funding can be found, we would like to see an annual girls baseball tournament

somewhere in the USA.


If you have a girls baseball team or league, please contact us!!

[Astro]

Why would the AAU sanction girls' and women's baseball, and why would USA Baseball start sanctioning a women's national team to play in international women's baseball events if females aren't interested in playing baseball?

To avoid people like you who keep insisting that they are discriminating against people, even when they are not....

[NotAboutEgo]

To avoid people like you who keep insisting that they are discriminating against people, even when they are not....

That's fine. I'd rather not talk with bigots anyway.

[Astro]

That's fine. I'd rather not talk with bigots anyway.
I have asked you, repeatedly, how because they run a "Baseball" league it is automatically steered toward boys... you have not answered this

[NotAboutEgo]

It's quite simple and I have posted it SEVERAL times here... LL has a boys' baseball division, a girls' softball division, AND a boys' softball division. If it's a league for both boys and girls and treats both equally, why is there a boys' softball division but not a girls' baseball division when LL has been approached about starting a girls' baseball division and when there is interest in girls' baseball? If boys want to play softball, why can't they just play with the girls in the softball division that was already existing at the time that LL decided to create a separate boys' softball division? Why do boys need a separate softball division???

[PopTop]

I'm asking that LL provide to girls the same things it provides to boys... an all-girls' baseball division along with its already existing boys' baseball division.We don't have an all-boys baseball division. But we do have an all-girls softball division. Girls, at least where I live, can have the best of both worlds, either they can play baseball with EVERYONE or they can play fast pitch softball just with other girls. As I said before, we had all of one girl, out of 48 kids, sign up for the majors division this year.

Good luck with your endeavor creating the all-girls baseball league. You won't prove me wrong, however. You might prove that the interest is different in your area.


It's quite simple and I have posted it SEVERAL times here... LL has a boys' baseball division, a girls' softball division, AND a boys' softball division. And I've said several times that you are wrong. We do NOT limit signups for baseball to just boys. We do, however, at least up to this year, limit softball signups to girls.

[Astro]

It's quite simple and I have posted it SEVERAL times here... LL has a boys' baseball division, a girls' softball division, AND a boys' softball division. If it's a league for both boys and girls and treats both equally, why is there a boys' softball division but not a girls' baseball division when LL has been approached about starting a girls' baseball division and when there is interest in girls' baseball? If boys want to play softball, why can't they just play with the girls in the softball division that was already existing at the time that LL decided to create a separate boys' softball division? Why do boys need a separate softball division???
It is NOT a boys baseball division (going by your posted article in post #1) it is a BASEBALL league, you are assuming that it is a boy's league to help your arguement, and it is NOT...

Why are there seperate softball divisions? Probably because most, if not all, parents of the girls in the softball league would complain about it being unfair to their daughters if they are playing with boys....

There was a debate not too long ago about women playing on the PGA Tour, if a woman can play on the PGA Tour, why can a man not play in the WPGA?

[NotAboutEgo]

And I've said several times that you are wrong. We do NOT limit signups for baseball to just boys. We do, however, at least up to this year, limit softball signups to girls.

So, why are you limiting softball signups to only girls if LL has created a boys' softball division and also if there are boys who prefer to play softball even if (but not limited to) there aren't enough boys around who want to play it to form teams/divisions. Do you get boys wanting to play softball over baseball?

[Baseball Mum]

Here in Australia, softball went the route of girls, boys and specifically mixed teams some time ago. The boys softball is a significantly sized comp.

Baseball here on the other hand has gone the "baseball" route, with most teams and comps in the country being available to either (up to, but excluding, the Olympic team).

I should say that the organisations for each game are completely independant of each other, which doesn't sound as though it is the case in the US.

Women's baseball leagues here only come into play at 14yo, and I think that is sensible. The numbers in the lower age groups wouldn't support a seperate regular league within the distances that parents would be willing to travel. There are short term tournaments for younger girls, and kids and parents travel some large distances to compete in those, but it wouldn't be possible for a regular week in week out comp.

I'm happy that it is organised that way. I think that bringing in girls comps too early would start the thought that if the girls have their own that they shouldn't play with the boys. (Mind you, I'm all for girls development squads early on, but that is not a comp.) I don't want to get to the situation that the softballers are in that the only way I could play with my husband was if we were in a specifically mixed comp. Just put us all in together I say. That surely leads to the best competition, with each team being graded only on merit, not gender makeup and THEN merit. Mind you, our other sport is equestrian events, so our mindset is definitely one of co-ed sports that are not specifically mixed or not mixed, but open to all.

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So, why are you limiting softball signups to only girls if LL has created a boys' softball division and also if there are boys who prefer to play softball even if (but not limited to) there aren't enough boys around who want to play it to form teams/divisions. Do you get boys wanting to play softball over baseball? We've never had enough interest from the little boys as far as softball goes. The subject has never come up. We limit signups for softball to girls because that has been the rule. All of the kids, boys and girls, start off playing t-ball together. Once they reach age 8, the boys all go into baseball and the girls have a choice at that time with about 24 out of 25 girls choosing softball. It works, at least for us. So far --- In my duties over the years as a coach, an umpire and a LL board member --- we've yet to have one complaint about a boy not being able to play softball or a girl having to choose between baseball and softball.

[NotAboutEgo]

It is NOT a boys baseball division (going by your posted article in post #1) it is a BASEBALL league, you are assuming that it is a boy's league to help your arguement, and it is NOT.

I'm NOT assuming it's a boys' league to help my argument. It is a baseball program dominated by boys, and in many LL's across the country, girls are STILL told they can't play just because they are girls. Also, they continue to get harassed on the field when playing baseball with boys. Would you want to be part of that? How woud you feel, especially if a young child, if you were constantly yelled at and harassed about doing something you love to do? Why should girls HAVE to play with boys if they want to play baseball and choose NOT to play with boys?


Probably because most, if not all, parents of the girls in the softball league would complain about it being unfair to their daughters if they are playing with boys....

You are making a HUGE assumption here. So, you are saying boys should have their OWN softball division because of many people probably would be complaining about boys playing softball with girls, BUT it's OK for girls to put up with the complaining and harassment that they endure when playing baseball on boys' teams in boys' leagues? Why do you see it so differently for boys?

[Baseball Mum]

Their main goal is to try to get women's baseball added as an Olympic sport for the 2008 or 2012 Olympics.

My daughter had heard of the moves to get womens baseball into the Olympics in 2012, and that was what first fuelled her ambition to take her game beyond the local district. She will be 23 in 2012, and thought that the time was right for her to be there. I can tell you that we had thunder clouds in our house the day they announced it was out! :(

[PopTop]

...and in many LL's across the country, girls are STILL told they can't play just because they are girls. Also, they continue to get harassed on the field when playing baseball with boys.Tell you what, NAE, you get me the locations of those leagues that won't allow girls to play Little League Baseball and I'll go to bat for you. That is entirely wrong and against the national guidelines if a girl is being told she can't play Little League Baseball. I don't know enough about the specific rules in other organizations to comment, but if it's an official Little League Baseball outfit doing that, they are wrong.

Not once, NEVER, in my experience have I heard any kid or adult harass a girl for playing amongst mostly boys.

[NotAboutEgo]

We've never had enough interest from the little boys as far as softball goes. The subject has never come up. We limit signups for softball to girls because that has been the rule. All of the kids, boys and girls, start off playing t-ball together. Once they reach age 8, the boys all go into baseball and the girls have a choice at that time with about 24 out of 25 girls choosing softball. It works, at least for us. So far --- In my duties over the years as a coach, an umpire and a LL board member --- we've yet to have one complaint about a boy not being able to play softball or a girl having to choose between baseball and softball.

Perhaps boys would want to try softball if signups were open to them. It's the same reason why so many girls go into softball... because throughout history, they have been told softball is for them and baseball is for boys. They may not know of baseball opportunities out there for them, and they may be intimidated by trying baseball because of whatever reason, including the stereotyping. I can see the same thing happening with boys who may want to try softball. They are probably thinking they will be called sissies if they want to play softball. Why is it that softball and baseball are so segregated by gender in the U.S., but it's not the same in other countries such as Australia? The reason lies in the history of how women AND men have been segregated based on gender, on the fact that women DO get stereotyped and discriminated against, and yes, men do get stereotyped and discriminated against as well.

I know of many men who used to play fast pitch softball and who say they'd love to be playing again. So, based on that, why is it constantly said that softball is for women and baseball is for men? Why do so many men play slow pitch if softball is for women? Why do so many women around the world (and the numbers are increasing) currently play baseball if baseball is only for men?


Not once, NEVER, in my experience have I heard any kid or adult harass a girl for playing amongst mostly boys.

I'm glad to hear you have never heard any girl being harassed for playing with mostly boys. But, it does happen. I was told in high school that my sister and I couldn't try out for the baseball team because girls don't play baseball. I don't like softball and I prefer baseball, so I should have been able to play baseball because that is my choice. I have also talked to many women, a lot who are on and who have been players on the women's team I founded, who have been told similar things. You may not have ever experienced it, but it doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere.

If I can find specific leagues (LL affiliated and otherwise), I will post them. I have talked to people in the past who have mentioned it, but I haven't kept track of what leagues they are talking about.

Also, girls are still told they can't play baseball beyond 11 or 12 or somewhere in there when it comes to baseball leagues, even LL baseball leagues. Does your LL have such a rule?


My daughter had heard of the moves to get womens baseball into the Olympics in 2012, and that was what first fuelled her ambition to take her game beyond the local district. She will be 23 in 2012, and thought that the time was right for her to be there. I can tell you that we had thunder clouds in our house the day they announced it was out! :(

Why were there thunder clouds in your house?

[PopTop]

Also, girls are still told they can't play baseball beyond 11 or 12 or somewhere in there when it comes to baseball leagues, even LL baseball leagues. Does your LL have such a rule?TO my knowledge, girls can play throughout Little League. We only have it through the Junior level, ages 13-14, here because after that we don't have enough for more than one team period (to date, I don't think any girls have played Juniors). I live in a one light town that just got its first McDonalds earlier this year :laugh

[NotAboutEgo]

I lived in one of those one-light (blinking light) towns when I was growing up. There were no baseball programs of any kind at the time I lived there (from 1980-1989), but we did have a fast pitch team that my dad started but had to recruit girls from "neighboring" towns (some were 30-45 mintues from the town I lived in and where we played) in order to have enough girls to play. We traveled to towns that were about an hour or more away that were still in our league.

In a case like this, the inability to have a team has more to do with not having enough people living in or close to the town more than it has to do with not having enough interested people there to play. Even though this small town was and still is a hot spot for adult slow pitch teams and tourneys, it would probably struggle to have enough youth players for teams.

It wasn't until I graduated from high school and left for college that this area had little league teams, where there were plenty of girls on the team as well as boys.

I have a hard time believing there isn't enough interest in a huge city like Houston for girls' baseball. I have done recruiting along with some of my team's coaches in the Detroit area for my women's baseball team, and we had a list of about 100 women who were interested in playing baseball... and that was from visiting just two leagues in the area. We haven't even tapped into other leagues yet.

Although certain recruiting techniques may work better in one area as compared to another area, it's about figuring out the techniques that do work. It took us a few years to figure out what works in this area, but we found it. We have tried several methods... sending letters to colleges, ads in papers, articles in papers, some coverage on local TV stations, recruiting at softball leagues, word of mouth, the internet, etc.

The advantage that starting a girls' league has is that schools, youth orgs and rec orgs, girls' orgs like the Girl Scouts, etc. provide a great base for recruiting. With adults, you have to come up with alternative ways of recruiting.

[Astro]

I'm NOT assuming it's a boys' league to help my argument. It is a baseball program dominated by boys, and in many LL's across the country, girls are STILL told they can't play just because they are girls. Also, they continue to get harassed on the field when playing baseball with boys.

You really are making a stretch.... no girls are harrassed when they play little league baseball, have you even went out to a park to watch little league baseball? Or do you just complain about how its not fair for girls

It is dominated by boys, because not many girls want to play baseball..... which is why they do not have their own division

Boys Softball: Yes they should have their own division, because most boys are better than the best girls, and before you start on how this is a sexist remark, it is not... it is science, male humans are much stronger due to genetics, this is not the case with all species...

My feeling on this is: If they had about a 50:50, or even 60:40, ratio of boys:girls in baseball leagues, they'd make a girls division... but why bother wasting the fields for other sports when you only will have enough for 2 or 4 teams, max, in a girls division...

It is simple: Supply and Demand, get enough girls wanting to play baseball where it would be economically smart to have a girls division, and they will create one... until then it wont happen, and it should not

[JeepingBaseball]

My daughter had heard of the moves to get womens baseball into the Olympics in 2012, and that was what first fuelled her ambition to take her game beyond the local district. She will be 23 in 2012, and thought that the time was right for her to be there. I can tell you that we had thunder clouds in our house the day they announced it was out! :(

I too was bummed out the day the announced that it was not an option. Got me down, but must continue to fight fight fight for it!

[Ubiquitous]

I'm willing to bet the creation of a boys softball league was done to fix a very obvious discriminatory system. Beforehand girls could play either baseball or softball or both. Boys could only play baseball. That is unfair and it is discriminatory. Now boys and girls have the exact same options.

[NotAboutEgo]

If boys and girls have the exact same options, why do boys need a separate softball division when girls have to play baseball with the boys? Seems pretty one-sided to me. But, you are blinded by your own ego, so there's no point in continuing to discuss the topic with you.

[Astro]

No, you dont listen... you want to paint a picture of girls being treated unfair...

This is evident in the fact that you state "girls have to play baseball with the boys"... When on another thread you are talking about how girls can be just as good as boys while playing baseball...

You can not have it both ways, so make up your mind on which side of the fence you want to be on

It is completely even, boys softball league, girls softball league.... and then a boys/girls baseball league.... im sure if they had enough demand for girls to play baseball they'd create a girls league, but the fact is they do not

When I played little league baseball, there was one girl who played past the tee-ball phase, and she was good... I still know her, and she is playing softball now in college...

[NotAboutEgo]

You really are making a stretch.... no girls are harrassed when they play little league baseball, have you even went out to a park to watch little league baseball? Or do you just complain about how its not fair for girls

I guess talking with several girls who put up with harassment while playing baseball on boys' teams is just a figment of my imagination. Have you talked to ALL girls who have played baseball on boys' teams?


It is dominated by boys, because not many girls want to play baseball..... which is why they do not have their own division

Can you document that as accurate and factual? Do have ANY experience talking with a lot of girls to see if they'd be interested in playing baseball?


Boys Softball: Yes they should have their own division, because most boys are better than the best girls, and before you start on how this is a sexist remark, it is not... it is science, male humans are much stronger due to genetics, this is not the case with all species...

Boys and girls are pretty equal in strength up until they go through puberty, and most girls mature sooner both mentally AND physically up until puberty, so your assumptions are very inaccurate. Also, if someone doesn't have much, if any, coordination or athletic ability at all, size and strength aren't going to carry them through. If they can't hit the ball, what good does their size and strength do? Saying that most boys are better than most girls is flat out a very ignorant statement and is extremely inaccurate.


My feeling on this is: If they had about a 50:50, or even 60:40, ratio of boys:girls in baseball leagues, they'd make a girls division... but why bother wasting the fields for other sports when you only will have enough for 2 or 4 teams, max, in a girls division...

It is simple: Supply and Demand, get enough girls wanting to play baseball where it would be economically smart to have a girls division, and they will create one... until then it wont happen, and it should not

Many people who work in women's baseball KNOW there is interest on girls' part to play baseball and have their own leagues. Have you ever worked within the structure of women's baseball? Do you talk to any girls or women who play the game, and have you done anything that suggests that almost the whole population of girls in the U.S. are NOT interested in playing baseball?

Have you experienced a HUGE demand for boys' softball?

Seems to me you haven't experienced any of this, and rather, you just make rash, belligerent comments.


You can not have it both ways, so make up your mind on which side of the fence you want to be on

It's not about what side of the fence one wants to be on, because everything in life isn't simply black and white, but that's what you are suggesting. Stating that girls are just as good as boys and stating that girls' should have their own baseball division within the LL structure is not a relevant comparison. It's not about picking one or the other... choose between the two: either girls are as good as boys so they should have to play with boys, or girls want their own leagues, even if they are as good as boys. The comparison doesn't make sense.


It is completely even, boys softball league, girls softball league.... and then a boys/girls baseball league.... im sure if they had enough demand for girls to play baseball they'd create a girls league, but the fact is they do no

Why haven't you addressed the fact that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of demand for boys' softball around the country, yet you state that they should have their own softball division... in your words... "because most boys are better than most girls"? Why should girls have to play on male dominated teams if they choose not to and when there are viable numbers to support a girls' division, but LL won't create one, and why should the boys' have their own softball division when there are far less boys interested in playing softball?

"im sure if they had enough demand for girls to play baseball they'd create a girls league, but the fact is they do not..." Do you know that this is fact? I guess the fact that there now is a women's national team sanctioned by USA Baseball and the AAU sanctions girls' and women's baseball based on the number of teams, leagues, and players across the country has NOTHING to do with the fact that there are plenty of girls who want to play baseball! I guess that all the women's international baseball competitions that have been happening for well over 5 years (new countries are getting involved each year) has nothing to do with the fact that females love to play baseball, too. Maybe the women who are playing competitive baseball around the U.S. are completely different from the girls who are interested in sports now!


When I played little league baseball, there was one girl who played past the tee-ball phase, and she was good... I still know her, and she is playing softball now in college...

That's great that you had that experience. Perhaps she would have chosen to play baseball in high school and/or in college if it was available to her.

[Ubiquitous]

But, you are blinded by your own ego, so there's no point in continuing to discuss the topic with you.

Ego? This has nothing to do about ego.

Boys and girls do have exact same options. Boys can play softball by themselves. Girls can play softball by themselves. Or they both can play baseball together. How in the world is it one sided? They both have the same options.

[NotAboutEgo]

It IS about ego, but you can't admit it, because you and many others who post on here are too EGOTISTICAL to admit it... blinded by your own ego. Girls want their own baseball division to play amongst themselves, so HOW can that be fair to not have that provided to them?

OK, the boys' softball division should be disintegrated and they should have to play on the girls' teams. That would be way more fair.

Good ole' boys network...

[Ubiquitous]

Okay tell me why this is about MY ego? So if girls have an exclusive baseball organization how will it hurt my ego? I've already said go do it, I've said if you want it then do it. So then how is this about my ego? I'm not saying you can't have a league, in fact I'm saying if you want one then have one. So again how is this about my ego?


Girls want their own baseball division to play amongst themselves

So if I told you boys want their own baseball league to play amongst themselves what would you say?


OK, the boys' softball division should be disintegrated and they should have to play on the girls' teams. That would be way more fair.


I'm fine with this, and I'm willing to bet that eventually this will happen.

[NotAboutEgo]

"Girls-N-Sports Day on Sat. Feb. 7 (2004) at the Wide World of Sports Complex in Orlando......Over 750 Girl Scouts from ages 7-13 received instruction in baseball skills for hitting, pitching and fielding from 14 AAU clinicians and support staff!! The AAU clinicians and support staff represented women's baseball organizations in the Midwest (Tom Giffen, Ashley Holderman, John Kovach and Irina Kovach), Northeast (Kelly Rodman, Deb Bettencourt, Sarah Feeley and Cecilia Tan) and Florida (Bill Perlach, Vanessa West, Julia Beatty, Tina Beining, Tom Beining and Clayton Beining). Plans are currently in the works to bring a similar type event to other portions of the United States in 2005!"

You can find this article here:
http://www.uswb.org/girls_baseball.htm

I guess there aren't enough girls in the U.S. interested in playing baseball. This was in one location... Orlando, Florida. This event has been going on for quite a few years and is very successful. Disney's Wide World of Sports Complex even hosts the annual Women's World Series of Baseball.

Tourneys...
Girls 11U, Girls 14U, Women's World Series

http://disneyworldsports.disney.go.c...ailPage&bhcp=1

There's NO evidence of interest of girls playing baseball... nope, not at all! :noidea :ughh :confused: ;)

http://www.baseballglory.com/

http://dmoz.org/Sports/Baseball/Women/

Guess this is all imaginary. The second link, which is a list of girls' and women's baseball sites, is even missing some teams, leagues, and organizations... so there are even more out there.

http://www.baseballglory.com/events.htm

Perhaps someone should inform the WBL that none of this exists!

[Ubiquitous]

There's NO evidence of interest of girls playing baseball... nope, not at all! :noidea :ughh :confused: ;)

Um who is saying there is no evidence? I know I'm not, in fact I don't think anybody is saying there is no interest. Some are saying that they do not see MUCH interest in their area, but I don't think anybody is saying there is no interest whatsoever.

You are creating strawman arguments but they don't apply.

[NotAboutEgo]

I guess you don't remember comments being made that there isn't enough interest in girls' baseball period for LL to create a separate division for them. Now all of a sudden, you are saying those comments have not been made and that they were only stated about certain areas. If some areas have a lot of girls who want to play in their own division, why hasn't LL created those divisions? If there isn't enough interest for girls' baseball in other areas, then don't create the separate teams and leagues. That's quite obvious. Since many areas DO have enough girls who are interested in playing baseball but LL has failed to create separate girls baseball teams and leagues in those areas, that is exactly what sexism and discrimination is.

And to add to this sexism and discrimination, they have created a separate boys' softball division. The fact that they have created a separate boys' softball division is not at all sexist or discriminatory, but what becomes discriminatory is when there IS enough interest for creating separate girls' baseball divisions in certain areas but they don't. One gets their own division but the other doesn't, regardless of whether the playing interest is equal or not. How can this be SO HARD to comprehend???

You and others are the ones who are creating arguments that don't apply. Why don't you just admit you are egotistical and one-sided and closed-minded and anti-progressive? :rolleyes:

[PopTop]

You and others are the ones who are creating arguments that don't apply.You mean like starting a thread saying Little League is unfair and then bringing in the fact that high schools won't let girls play is evidence that Little League is discriminating? Or mentioning that baseball instruction was given to 750 Girl Scouts and reasoning that means there's enough interest for Little League to crank up and support girls-only baseball divisions?


Why don't you just admit you are egotistical and one-sided and closed-minded and anti-progressive?Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

[NotAboutEgo]

Or mentioning that baseball instruction was given to 750 Girl Scouts and reasoning that means there's enough interest for Little League to crank up and support girls-only baseball divisions?

The baseball instruction given to the 750 Girl Scouts was given by people involved with women's baseball and by women's baseball organizations. Little League had nothing to do with it. The facts about LL come from people who are currently pursuing the unfairness that LL is creating, and they have been in meetings with them and have lawyers involved. I'm not creating arguments based on my personal experiences and assumptions.

My point for posting the info about the Disney-sponsored girls' and women's baseball events was to show those folks who are saying not enough girls' across the country want to play baseball, so there's no need for girls' baseball leagues. It sort of shows there IS interest... and this is only one area where it is happening. Just think of how many girls' teams and leagues could be made out of those 750 girls, even if only 1/4 to 1/5 of them decided to play. That would be a pretty good league.

Good ole' boys network...

[Ubiquitous]

You and others are the ones who are creating arguments that don't apply. Why don't you just admit you are egotistical and one-sided and closed-minded and anti-progressive? :rolleyes:


Do you even know what the words you are throwing around mean?

Let me see. I said if girls want a league then create one. How is this egotistical, how is this close-minded, how is this anti-progressive.


One gets their own division but the other doesn't

Uh yes they do. Girls have their own softball division, and the boys have their own. Neither gets their own baseball division. For the fourty millionth time that isn't sexist, that isn't discriminatory. Now then not allowing boys to play softball would be sexist and would be discriminatory, they have corrected that flaw.

LEt me ask you this, if they create a girls only baseball league can they also create a boys only baseball league? Or would you think that is unfair, sexist, and discriminatory?

[NotAboutEgo]

Uh, jeez... I made it to college on an academic scholarship, so I guess I might know about the words I'm throwing around.

"LEt me ask you this, if they create a girls only baseball league can they also create a boys only baseball league?" If they create a girls'-only division, then there WOULD be a girls' division AND a boys' division, because the current baseball division would continue to exist... which is a boys' division that "let's" girls play... in some areas. If LL created a girls' baseball division, then the existing baseball division would be exclusively for boys, so how does creating a girls' baseball division create discrimination?

It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand things.

[Ubiquitous]

because the current baseball division would continue to exist... which is a boys' division that "let's" girls play... in some areas.


as in those areas where girls want to play?


If LL created a girls' baseball division, then the existing baseball division would be exclusively for boys.

Then a girl would not be allowed to play in the boys league? You would be okay with that?

[NotAboutEgo]

as in those areas where girls want to play?

But what if they don't want to play there but do because that's their only choice, and they'd much rather play in their own division of the players of the same gender? Isn't it being anti-progressive to not give them that opportunity if that's what they desire? Why should boys' have their separate softball division? It's NO different.

I boys want to play softball, why doesn't LL say they can play on the girls teams instead of giving them their own league? It's very contradictory what they have done.

[Astro]

Ok, think what you want.... This is a pointless arguement when the person who creates the thread is so stuck on their views that they will resort to cutting down those who disagree.... We could poll the entire United States, if only 25 girls wanted to play baseball you'd still complain about how it was unfair, when is EXACTLY equal...

The only person with ego problems here is you, NotAboutEgo (how ironic), you do not listen to what anyone says if they disagree with you, then throw around information that you do not even have....

What percent of girls in the United States would play baseball if offered?
If there was a demand for a girl's baseball league, would the low amount of signups justify clogging up other leagues' schedules to run it, when the girls can just as easily play on a mixed team?
Is it cost efficient to add another league?
Is it fair to boys to create a girls only baseball league?

Little League is a business... if they had a high enough demand for a girl's baseball league they sure in the hell would create one, it would generate more revenue for them... but the fact is they do not.... just because 4 or 5 girls want to play baseball does not mean they can create a league....

You point to the fact that a lot of girls within a 50 mile radius of a city (dont feel like going back and looking) want to play... ok, 50 miles... do you know how far 50 miles is? No one is going to take their kid 50 miles to play in an all girls baseball league, when they can sign them up for a mixed league 5 miles down the road....

Why did you post this out of the blue? To solve the injustices of the Little League Inc because they do not offer what you think they should? The fact of the matter is they offer the exact samething to boys and girls: softball and baseball... They are not turning girls away to play baseball if they want to, they are not demanding they play in the girls only softball league... if they want to play baseball THEY CAN

My friend could have played baseball for our high school team, I did and she was almost as good as I was.... but she choose to play softball because thats what all of her friends, who were girls, were doing.... there was no, "YOU CANT PLAY BECAUSE YOU ARE A GIRL!"

You throw out useless information that you call facts, when infact it does not have much relevance at all (as with the 50 mile radius and girls wanting to play baseball)... then when others give first hand accounts or other facts that dispute your claim, you are quick to toss them aside as pointless

[Ubiquitous]

But what if they don't want to play there but do because that's their only choice, and they'd much rather play in their own division of the players of the same gender? Isn't it being anti-progressive to not give them that opportunity if that's what they desire? Why should boys' have their separate softball division? It's NO different.

It isn't being anti-progressive in fact they are progressing. Before boys were not even allowed to play softball, now they are. The real question should be why did it take them so long to give the boys the option. The real question should have been why should girls be the only ones to get to play organized softball? They are trying to solve the incongruity, and like I said before I am willing to bet that in the future there won't be a boys softball girls softball but just softball. They are taking progressive steps.

What if boys don't want to play in a mix group but that is their only choice, and they'd much rather play in their own division of players of the same gender?

[NotAboutEgo]

Ok, think what you want.... This is a pointless arguement when the person who creates the thread is so stuck on their views that they will resort to cutting down those who disagree

Blah, blah, blah... I guess seeing proof that girls are interested in baseball isn't enough for you, but it doesn't matter, because the whole world isn't full of close-minded people like you! I posted the article because I WANTED to and also to let people know what's going on out there. The info I have posted is fact, regardless of whether your biased, bigoted mind wants to accept it or not. You aren't the one out there working on creating opportunities for girls and women who want to play baseball, and you obviously shone yourself from talking with those who do. Your "one" little encounter with a female who played baseball and chose to play softball in high school is NOT representative of the whole female population. Perhaps your friend chose to play softball instead because her friends would treat her better than people like you would and she didn't care to put up with the likes of people like you.

"No one is going to take their kid 50 miles to play in an all girls baseball league, when they can sign them up for a mixed league 5 miles down the road...." That's funny... I personally know of parents who drive their daughters 1-4 hours to play baseball. I also know of plenty of women who drive hours to be able to do so. We once had a woman on hour team who drove all the way from Louisville, Kentucky to play baseball with our Detroit team and another one drove from Grand Rapids (2 to 2.5 hour drive) and another one drove from Alma, which is about a 2 hour drive. There are MANY high school aged girls and even 12-13 year old girls who play on women's adult teams, just so they get the chance to play.

Perhaps you should do some research and get involved with women's and girls' baseball before making such unqualified comments.

What are you so frustrated about, anyway, that you are so mean-spirited about girls' having equal opportunities?


It isn't being anti-progressive in fact they are progressing. Before boys were not even allowed to play softball, now they are. The real question should be why did it take them so long to give the boys the option. The real question should have been why should girls be the only ones to get to play organized softball? They are trying to solve the incongruity, and like I said before I am willing to bet that in the future there won't be a boys softball girls softball but just softball. They are taking progressive steps.

I agree with you completely... why did it take them so long to let boys play softball? I also agree that girls shouldn't be the only ones to be able to play softball, but unfortunately, it's the same closed-minded people who started saying softball is for girls and baseball is for boys who keep girls from playing baseball and boys from playing softball (not in all cases but it still happens in enough places). I never said boys shouldn't play softball. My argument is that if they are going to create a separate division for boys' softball, why isn't there a separate division for girls' baseball? It's a complete oxymoron what they have done.

But, it's not that they are trying to solve the incongruity. If they were trying to do that, they would have opened up the girls' softball leagues to boys. That would be the same thing as opening up the baseball leagues to girls. That would be equal and fair.


What if boys don't want to play in a mix group but that is their only choice, and they'd much rather play in their own division of players of the same gender?

Then they should have their own division, just as the girls should have their own baseball division because that's what they want. How do you not see you are saying it's OK for boys' to have their own softball division if that's what they want (and I completely agree with that as long as it's equal for both sides), but you disagree that girls' should have their own baseball division if that's what they want? I have asked that SO MANY times in this post but get nothing but contradictory answers.


Then a girl would not be allowed to play in the boys league? You would be okay with that?

Of course I would be OK with that! BINGO!!!

[Astro]

Your "one" little encounter with a female who played baseball and chose to play softball in high school is NOT representative of the whole female population. Perhaps your friend chose to play softball instead because her friends would treat her better than people like you would and she didn't care to put up with the likes of people like you.

You do NOT know me, yet you make the assumption that people would treat her bad if she played baseball... I have known her since I was about 6, no one would have treated her different...

.... you say my "one little encounter" but do you have any to speak of at all? Or do you just make up things to support your argument... Why dont you go start your own girl's baseball league, then when you have a grand total of 15 girls sign up, then you can tell us about how our ego's have resulted in girls not wanting to play baseball


What are you so frustrated about, anyway, that you are so mean-spirited about girls' having equal opportunities?

I am frustrated by your lack of common sense and ability to comprehend anything other than your own opinion... if someone disagrees you throw out claims that are completely inaccurate, cut down the person who disagrees, then say that they disagree because they a) are sexist or b) have an ego

Why dont you go outside and see the world isnt anything like you are trying to depict it as... you sit inside and read about the social injusticies, yet those make up .0001% of life today...


Then they should have their own division, just as the girls should have their own baseball division because that's what they want. How do you not see you are saying it's OK for boys' to have their own softball division if that's what they want (and I completely agree with that as long as it's equal for both sides), but you disagree that girls' should have their own baseball division if that's what they want? I have asked that SO MANY times in this post but get nothing but contradictory answers.

You are the one that is throwing out contradictory answers... you claim girls can play in the Major Leagues, but that it is unfair if they have mixed little leagues

Here is your solution, I'll put it in simpleton terms so maybe you can comprehend it:

Boy can play baseball... Boy can not play softball because it is a girls only league (you with me so far?)
Boy wants to play softball but can not... unfair to boy

Girl can play softball.... Girl can play baseball in mixed league.... Girl can play both.... fair to girl

Boy wants to play softball... so they make a softball league for boys.... now boy can play softball and baseball

Girl play softball and baseball
Boy play softball and baseball

Ok, did you get that?

[bluezebra]

I can see where your mindset is. Your post only adds to the sexism and discrimination.

See what? Did you actually read my post. I was condemning LL, not saying LL was right all these years. I've been following baseball, and have studied the game, before you were born. I supported women's baseball for years. I put crews together to umpire three of the Silver Bullets' games, one each in their only seasons of existence. I refused to be paid for my work, hoping it would help a women's BB league get started. If you don't believe me, the first game (1994) was at Mavericks Stadium in Adelanto, CA, and was on ESPN. Contact them, and ask for a copy.

Of course softball is not a replacement for baseball. Only a fool would think so. When I was involved with LL when my sons' played, I pushed to get girls accepted, but the neanderthals in Williamsport wouldn't allow it. During the summer, some of us decided to run a summer league, NOT under the auspices of LL, and we emphasized signing-up girls. Unfortunately, the turnout was low.

I would suggest you learn how to read BEFORE attacking someone. I'll put my knowledge of baseball, and women's baseball against your's any day. By the way, my Dad took me to see the AAGPBL games in Chicago when I was a youngster. Did you see any?

Bob

[NotAboutEgo]

Shut the hell up, my god.... people like you are whats wrong with the world... you bitch about EVERYTHING even when things are fair... You do NOT know me, yet you make the assumption that people would treat her bad if she played baseball... I have known her since I was about 6, no one would have treated her different...

You make fantastical claims that hold no water BASED ON NOTHING OTHER THAN YOUR OWN STUPIDITY.... you say my "one little encounter" but do you have any to speak of at all? Or do you just make up things to support your argument... Why dont you go start your own girl's baseball league, then when you have a grand total of 15 girls sign up, you can bitch about how our ego's have resulted in girls not wanting to play baseball because of some ******** about how they wont be treated fairly....

I am frustrated by your lack of common sense and ability to comprehend anything other than your own opinion... if someone disagrees you throw out claims that are completely inaccurate, cut down the person who disagrees, then say that they disagree because they a) are sexist or b) have an ego

Why dont you go outside and see the world isnt anything like you are trying to depict it as... you sit inside and read about the social injusticies, yet those make up .0001% of life today...

Thanks for the classy statements, Astro. If you would have read an earlier post of mine, I did state that I am in the process of starting a girls' baseball league with some others. AND, I have been involved with women's baseball since 1998 and have founded a women's baseball team. I am very thankful to the fact that I don't know you. I didn't make any assumption that people would treat your friend badly if she played baseball. I simply said... "perhaps she didn't choose to play because she may have thought that she would have been treated badly." It's an idea... a thought... a possibility... but not an assumption... as to why some women choose not to do something like playing baseball with some guys. I have received similar treatment (similar to the way you talk on here) while playing roller hockey in coed leagues.

Not making up anything. Perhaps I could introduce you to Justine Siegel and John Kovach and Jim Glennie and countless others who have been involved with girls' and women's baseball for many, many years who would support the facts I have stated... because they are true.

John Kovach's e-mail address is knucksie1@aol.com. He is the one who has been involved with talking to LL and has gotten nowhere with them, so he knows first-hand how sexist the organization is. Justine Siegel is the one who founded the WBL (the Women's Baseball League) and who has been and continues to create baseball opportunities for girls in Canada and in the U.S.

Things may be fair... in "your" reality.


See what? You are about the most ignorant, close-minded buffoon who ever posted on these boards. Did you actually read my post. I was condemning LL, not saying LL was right all these years. I've been following baseball, and have studied the game, before you were born. I supported women's baseball for years. I put crews together to umpire three of the Silver Bullets' games, one each in their only seasons of existence. I refused to be paid for my work, hoping it would help a women's BB league get started. If you don't believe me, the first game (1994) was at Mavericks Stadium in Adelanto, CA, and was on ESPN. Contact them, and ask for a copy.

Of course softball is not a replacement for baseball. Only a fool would think so. When I was involved with LL when my sons' played, I pushed to get girls accepted, but the neanderthals in Williamsport wouldn't allow it. During the summer, some of us decided to run a summer league, NOT under the auspices of LL, and we emphasized signing-up girls. Unfortunately, the turnout was low.

I would suggest you learn how to read BEFORE attacking someone. I'll put my knowledge of baseball, and women's baseball against your's any day. By the way, my Dad took me to see the AAGPBL games in Chicago when I was a youngster. Did you see any?

Bob

Sounded to me like you were questioning my statement about saying LL is unfair to girls.

So, if you've done all this stuff for women's baseball (and I'm not saying you haven't), why did you tell a 12 year old girl in another post, where she was asking for advice on how to approach her dad about letting her play baseball when he told her she can't, to be realisitic and let her ego aside and play softball, because "there's no future in women's baseball"?

[Astro]

"perhaps she didn't choose to play because she may have thought that she would have been treated badly."


Perhaps your friend chose to play softball instead because her friends would treat her better than people like you would and she didn't care to put up with the likes of people like you.

Hmmmmmm... now you lie on top of not listening

[NotAboutEgo]

I'm not going to get involved with this screaming match going on in this thread...

I just want to say that both sides are getting a little caried away here and a whole lot of double talk on both sides. Not just one or the other... both sides.

This is exactly the kind of screaming match that stands in the way of a solution. Either agree to disagree or come up with an idea TOGETHER to make it work for all parties involved.

I'm not screaming at anyone. Rather, I'm stating facts about my experiences in conjunction with women's and girls' baseball. I posted a topic that I wanted others to know about because I feel it's important to talk about, but some people are the ones yelling and telling me I'm making up stories about what I'm saying.

Seems to me that blog/forum is for discussing topics that interest some people, so that means they can express their opinions about those topics. I posted the topic because I wanted to and because I feel it's necessary to let people know some of the things that are happening. If some feel I am simply complaining, that is their perspective. I guess I'm supposed to shut up and not say anything about how I feel, about what I've experienced, and about what others have experienced and still experience. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I don't expect to get attacked about things that I state that are happening.

[Astro]

Seems to me that blog/forum is for discussing topics that interest some people, so that means they can express their opinions about those topics. I posted the topic because I wanted to and because I feel it's necessary to let people know some of the things that are happening. If some feel I am simply complaining, that is their perspective. I guess I'm supposed to shut up and not say anything about how I feel, about what I've experienced, and about what others have experienced and still experience. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I don't expect to get attacked about things that I state that are happening.
Good luck with your crusade... ive had enough badgering because I disagree with you

[pitcher23]

I've been following this thread and haven't had a chance to respond - until now. I agree that LL has a real problem with allowing a girls division within their baseball program. I have seen the question asked many times without an answer - Why, if it was felt boys need a separate softball program, does the same not hold true for girls and baseball? Yes, girls are allowed to play baseball, albeit with boys or not at all, but why should they not be allowed to play only against other girls? If the baseball designation allows for boys and girls to play, why differentiate between boys and girls in softball?

I have seen personally, and talked to hundreds of girls in the metro Detroit area that would absolutely love the chance to play baseball. I have participated in clinics held at Comerica Park in conjunction with the Detroit Tigers where girls have surrounded us questioning where they can play baseball. There is DEFINITELY an interest from girls to play baseball. Certainly more in just the Detroit area than the 500 - 1000 boys that caused LL to create a boys softball division. Where are the numbers and facts LL has used to justify the alleged fact that girls aren't interested in playing baseball. I applaud NotAboutEgo for starting a girls league. It takes a lot of work to get a league off the ground. Success may not be as plentiful the first year but it will grow as word gets out it is available. I have spent 25 years in a youth program (girls were encouraged to play and many did) and we attempted to start a league for ages 21+. It was mildly successful the first year (4 teams) and as word of it spread, so did the number of teams. There were 10 teams in the program. My point is that time will be necessary to determine success. A further point is while there may be areas where the desire for girls to play may not be evident, how can anyone determine that desire if it isn't tried? If LL is only a business, how can the prospect of adding players without a significant increase in expenses be looked at as a bad business decision? If not allowing a separate girls baseball division is not business related, what is the basis for the decision and how is the decision supported? Again, where are the numbers?

The statement made by someone in this thread alluding to men being better strictly because they are biologically stronger is one of the most ludicrous comments I've ever heard. Strength has no bearing in this issue. Without the proper mechanics, strength means nothing. If someone has no idea how to hit, all the strength in the world will not help, except in the blind squirrel scenario - even a blind squirrel will find a nut occassionally. If men were truly better strictly because of strength, why was Jenny Finch able to strike out so many professional hitters with fastpitch softball pitches? I have seen and coached many girls who were superior to many of the boys on the team(s). Mechanics and desire to play are more important than strength.


You do NOT know me, yet you make the assumption that people would treat her bad if she played baseball... I have known her since I was about 6, no one would have treated her different...

you say my "one little encounter" but do you have any to speak of at all? Or do you just make up things to support your argument... Why dont you go start your own girl's baseball league, then when you have a grand total of 15 girls sign up, you can about how our ego's have resulted in girls not wanting to play baseball because of some ******** about how they wont be treated fairly....


I am frustrated by your lack of common sense and ability to comprehend anything other than your own opinion... if someone disagrees you throw out claims that are completely inaccurate, cut down the person who disagrees, then say that they disagree because they a) are sexist or b) have an ego

Why dont you go outside and see the world isnt anything like you are trying to depict it as... you sit inside and read about the social injusticies, yet those make up .0001% of life today...


If you don't agree with a comment, you have some choices - 1. you can make rational comments to make your point, 2. you can not make any comments, or 3.
For me, you have no credibility in any comments you make. Let me make a comment you may understand that is in your thought process - the comments you have made make it seem you hold true to old fashioned ideals - up here, we let the women wear shoes and get out of the kitchen. They are every bit equal to men and in many cases better.

[Ubiquitous]

How do you not see you are saying it's OK for boys' to have their own softball division if that's what they want (and I completely agree with that as long as it's equal for both sides), but you disagree that girls' should have their own baseball division if that's what they want?

No I don't disagree that girls should have their own division if they want it. In fact I said several times if you want one then start one. What I disagree with you on is your belief that somehow because boys are getting the same treatment as girls it is somehow unfair to girls.


I'll also add that I'll bet dollars to donuts that within a few years their will be no boys softball. They will have either dropped it or they will have merged it with girls softball. I'll also bet you dollars to donuts that they don't really want to start up a boys softball league. What they are doing is fixing an incongruity between their mission statement and actual practices. By having a girls only softball league they were discriminating, they are taking steps to remove that discrimination.


Finally I'll add in a perfect world you would have 6 choices, mix BB, boys BB, girls BB, Mix SB, girls SB, and boys SB and their would never be a problem. In reality that will never happen because a) it isn't feasible financially or realistically, and b) people don't behave in a rationale way. There will always be somebody out there that wants to test the boundaries. There will be some girl who doesn't want to play on a mixed league or a girls league but with the boys for whatever reason. The ensuing struggle will bring on a blackeye to little league which is something they as an organization that relies heavily on goodwill and donations cannot tolerate.

Is it possible to have a boys only league? No, because somebody will always say it is unfair even if they set it up so it is not. Little league is better off just having two mixed leagues. One for softball, one for baseball. If you want something else you should do it yourself.

[Astro]

If you don't agree with a comment, you have some choices - 1. you can make rational comments to make your point, 2. you can not make any comments, or 3.
For me, you have no credibility in any comments you make. Let me make a comment you may understand that is in your thought process - the comments you have made make it seem you hold true to old fashioned ideals - up here, we let the women wear shoes and get out of the kitchen. They are every bit equal to men and in many cases better.
But apparently people are not allowed to have varying opinions...

[NotAboutEgo]

No I don't disagree that girls should have their own division if they want it. In fact I said several times if you want one then start one. What I disagree with you on is your belief that somehow because boys are getting the same treatment as girls it is somehow unfair to girls.

I'll also add that I'll bet dollars to donuts that within a few years their will be no boys softball. They will have either dropped it or they will have merged it with girls softball. I'll also bet you dollars to donuts that they don't really want to start up a boys softball league. What they are doing is fixing an incongruity between their mission statement and actual practices. By having a girls only softball league they were discriminating, they are taking steps to remove that discrimination.

Finally I'll add in a perfect world you would have 6 choices, mix BB, boys BB, girls BB, Mix SB, girls SB, and boys SB and their would never be a problem. In reality that will never happen because a) it isn't feasible financially or realistically, and b) people don't behave in a rationale way. There will always be somebody out there that wants to test the boundaries. There will be some girl who doesn't want to play on a mixed league or a girls league but with the boys for whatever reason. The ensuing struggle will bring on a blackeye to little league which is something they as an organization that relies heavily on goodwill and donations cannot tolerate.

Is it possible to have a boys only league? No, because somebody will always say it is unfair even if they set it up so it is not. Little league is better off just having two mixed leagues. One for softball, one for baseball. If you want something else you should do it yourself.

No, I never said it's unfair that boys get equal treatment as girls. It is unfair if boys want to play softball but can't. It's fine if boys want to play softball in their own division if that's what they want. LL has created that. It's not wrong for girls to want to play baseball in their own division when they want that. LL HAS NOT done that. That is what's wrong. You keep stating that there's nothing wrong with boys having equal opportunities as girls, and I agree with that. But you keep stating that girls have the SAME opportunities as boys, which they don't. It's a double-edged sword with you and some of the others on here. If boys wanted to play softball, why didn't they create their OWN leagues like you are suggesting for girls? Why has LL provided it for them but has not given the girls the same thing for baseball? You don't get it somehow.

If the LL boys softball division disappears, it will most likely be because there's not enough interest in having it. I don't see why they would merge it with girls' softball if there is enough interest. If there are just a handful of boys who want to play, then it would make sense to end the division and let them play with the girls.

"There will always be somebody out there that wants to test the boundaries. There will be some girl who doesn't want to play on a mixed league or a girls league but with the boys for whatever reason. The ensuing struggle will bring on a blackeye to little league which is something they as an organization that relies heavily on goodwill and donations cannot tolerate."

So, are you saying that if girls want to play in their own leagues, it's wrong and it creates problems, but if boys want the same thing, it's not wrong and doesn't create problems, because that's what you are suggesting? From many of your previous posts, it's obvious how you think. Are you saying that if someone doesn't see things the way you see them, even if they see them fairly, that they are testing the boundaries and are causing problems? Is it that you have a problem with someone wo doesn't "obey" what you say? It doesn't matter if it's a gender issue or whatever it is. If a group of people want to do something but are held back from it for no substantial reason, it's wrong. Again, it's appearant what you think. When I have agreed with about what you have said about certain things, you still have to come back and express your one-sided thinking.

Again, maybe the boys who want to play softball should set up their own leagues instead of having LL do it for them.

Is it possible to have a girls-only league?

[Ubiquitous]

But you keep stating that girls have the SAME opportunities as boys, which they don't

Okay how do they not? Can they play baseball? Yes. Can they play softball? Yes. So how do they not have the same oppurtunities?


If boys wanted to play softball, why didn't they create their OWN leagues like you are suggesting for girls? Why has LL provided it for them but has not given the girls the same thing for baseball? You don't get it somehow.


I have given my answer several times now. LL created boys softball to fix a contradiction in their mission statement and actual practices. The girls do have the same options provided for them as boys in regards to baseball. Which is both of them can only play in a mixed league.


So, are you saying that if girls want to play in their own leagues, it's wrong and it creates problems, but if boys want the same thing, it's not wrong and doesn't create problems, because that's what you are suggesting?
No I am saying that if girls want to play in their own league it is fine and it won't cause problems, but if boys want to play in their own league it will cause problems even though I think that it too is fine.


From many of your previous posts, it's obvious how you think

If it is so obvious how I think then why do you keep misunderstanding me?

[pitcher23]

But apparently people are not allowed to have varying opinions...


My response, in its entirety, had nothing to do with varying opinions. The way your response was given was totally unnecessary and inappropriate and I felt something had to be said. It had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Your response wasn't edited until I posted my response. But based on the pre-edited comment, there is no credibility in your comments, at least as far as I'm concerned. If anything, I think you owe NotAboutEgo an apology for the language, regardless of whether you agree with her comments.

[Astro]

My response, in its entirety, had nothing to do with varying opinions. The way your response was given was totally unnecessary and inappropriate and I felt something had to be said. It had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Your response wasn't edited until I posted my response. But based on the pre-edited comment, there is no credibility in your comments, at least as far as I'm concerned. If anything, I think you owe NotAboutEgo an apology for the language, regardless of whether you agree with her comments.
This is laughable, have you read the entire thread? Obviously not

[bluezebra]

Sounded to me like you were questioning my statement about saying LL is unfair to girls.

So, if you've done all this stuff for women's baseball (and I'm not saying you haven't), why did you tell a 12 year old girl in another post, where she was asking for advice on how to approach her dad about letting her play baseball when he told her she can't, to be realisitic and let her ego aside and play softball, because "there's no future in women's baseball"?

You have a terrible reading problem. You read ONLY what you will support your thoughts (?).

I recommended that she play softball be cause there are next to NO baseball programs in high school that have girls, and I know of NO college that gives out baseball scholarships to girls. Or even will allow any on a team. If she wants a "ride" to college, softball is the way to go. And, what future is there in professional women's baseball? Let's say she plays youth baseball. That's it, PERIOD.

Again, I urge you, learn to read.

Bob

[Erik Bedard]

Doesn't mean that this is the case everywhere. How big is the area you live in? How was it projected that there was a sign up for a girls' baseball league? Many factors affect this type of thing and come into play, and it's not just from the non-interest of girls that is the culprit. Also, stereotypes and discrimination do affect these kinds of things. It could be that not many people knew about the effort of trying to start a girls' division.

Speaking from experience, it takes many avenues to get the word out about a new program of any type, and it takes time and committed effort from many people, not just from one or two. Why have girls' baseball leagues been very successful in other areas? Why do many areas of Canada NOT have trouble getting girls signed up into their girls' baseball leagues? Toronto has a very successful youth girls' (it has been expanded into a women's league as well) baseball program that has been around for 10 years. Why has the Pawtucket Slaterettes all-girls' baseball league in Rhode Island been successful for OVER 30 years if there is no interest in girls' baseball?

The area I live in is pretty large, something like the 20th largest city in the US, and easily the largest in my state. I don't know what your second question was, but I play in one of the largest leagues in my area, which gives out bumper stickers every year. On the bumper stickers it said "Now opening a girls' division!" I'd think that would be sufficient advertising.

So it seems to me like you are going for complete, utter, all-consuming segregation of baseball. No. No. No.

[NotAboutEgo]

You have a terrible reading problem. You read ONLY what you will support your thoughts (?).

I recommended that she play softball be cause there are next to NO baseball programs in high school that have girls, and I know of NO college that gives out baseball scholarships to girls. Or even will allow any on a team. If she wants a "ride" to college, softball is the way to go. And, what future is there in professional women's baseball? Let's say she plays youth baseball. That's it, PERIOD.

Again, I urge you, learn to read.

Bob


Bob,

I know how to read, thank you very much, and I know how to see what one is saying, for the most part. My point is, if everyone sits around saying that something doesn't exist now and it never will and there's nothing anyone can ever do about it so there's no point in trying... no progress will ever be made with anything. Do you think everything that exists now has existed since the beginning of the modern human species? What is your idea of innovation and entrepreneurship? How do you feel about evolution? How would anything come about and grow if everyone had that mindset? Our human ancestors figured out how to use fire and tools thousands and thousands of years ago. What has happened since then?

Do you know of the advances that are being made in women's baseball? There are growing numbers of women playing baseball in high schools and in colleges around the U.S., and a women's collegiate baseball program was started at St. Mary's U./Notre Dame U. this past spring. Women have been playing internationally for over 5 years (in modern times), and each year new countries become involved with the international competitions. USA Baseball has been sanctioning a women's national team since 2004, the AAU started sanctioning girls' and women's baseball in 2003 because of the growing numbers of girls' and women's baseball teams and leagues... and the list goes on.

If you are attempting to give this 12 year old girl advice, I think something like, "There are many baseball opportunities for women now and they continue to grow even though there are more scholarships given for collegiate softball at the present and there is a pro softball league. However, it's your choice how you choose to enjoy your life, and it's your choice what sport you play, if you choose to play any at all. Keep trying if baseball is something you enjoy and want to play. Don't give up, because opportunities can arise, and you can create them for yourself. Pursue whatever it is that makes you happy and content and fulfills your life's ambitions."

Telling someone to stop doing something they enjoy is a very stifling and controlling approach. How do you know what will happen in the future for women's baseball? Are you involved with it enough to know? Can you firmly say that there will never be any pro women's teams or leagues AGAIN? Do you know what's going on behind the scenes? Should a child stop experiencing things and doing something they enjoy because they may not be able to make a buck doing it in the future? Is money the only focus for you?

When I was a kid, I dreamt of playing baseball as an adult and even professionally. At that time, according to the historical data on girls' and women's baseball that I have seen, the Pawtucket Slaterettes was the only girls' and women's baseball league that existed in the U.S. Now, there are umpteen teams, leagues, and organizations across the country for women, there are a handful of programs for girls, and the numbers of both continue to rise. Did ANY of the things I mentioned about women's baseball exist when I was a child? Not many of them at all.... just the Pawtucket Slaterettes as far as I know... maybe a girl here and there playing baseball, and I believe Pam Postema was an umpire in the Minors around the time I was growing up.

Have I and will I ever get a chance to play pro baseball? I very highly doubt it. Have I been able to play organized baseball... something I dreamt about as a kid... YES. Have I enjoyed my experiences of playing baseball... TREMENDOUSLY. Am I fulfilling a lifelong ambition of mine by playing it and helping to build it... ABSOLUTELY. Would I give up the experiences I've had... not a chance.

You see... fulfilling one's desire to do something and be happy with it is NOT always about money... if ever.

It's called progess and being happy with your life experience. Some people need to step out of the box they live in.


The area I live in is pretty large, something like the 20th largest city in the US, and easily the largest in my state. I don't know what your second question was, but I play in one of the largest leagues in my area, which gives out bumper stickers every year. On the bumper stickers it said "Now opening a girls' division!" I'd think that would be sufficient advertising.

From my experiences, it takes more than just one method of starting something (as I said, from my experiences). If one hasn't been involved with trying to start something from scratch, they wouldn't have the experience of knowing. Assuming it's enough is just what it is... making an assumption.


So it seems to me like you are going for complete, utter, all-consuming segregation of baseball. No. No. No.

You are assuming wrongly. So, if you think it's segregation for females to want to be able to do what they choose to do... with other females... and males and females should do everything together, what do you think about MLB and the affiliated Minors allowing women to play in their leagues?

[Erik Bedard]

I'm all for women playing with men, but not just because they're women. They should have equal talent.

And yes, what you are suggesting, that is the definition of segregation.

[NotAboutEgo]

I'm all for women playing with men, but not just because they're women. They should have equal talent.

And yes, what you are suggesting, that is the definition of segregation.

I don't think anyone here ever suggested that women should be allowed to play baseball, with or without men, just because they are women. Rather, we want to play because we love the sport. I really highly doubt if a woman will go through the motions of getting baseball gear and going somewhere and paying to play baseball with men, just because she is a woman. Perhaps there are some out there who would, but I haven't seen it happen from my experiences. If there aren't women's teams in areas for women and if some of us are working on building those teams, we should not be banned from and harassed about playing on mens' teams (same goes for girls) while building women's baseball. That IS segregation. You are assuming wrongly, again.

If LL went so far as to segregate (your words) the softball programs, then it should have done it across the board with baseball as well. And that opinion is based upon the fact that there are sufficient numbers of girls who choose to play baseball with other girls rather than having to play with boys to get an opportunity. It's not wrong to want to do things with your like-gendered peers. That is not what segregation is. But, it is wrong to provide something to one group, based on what they want, but to not provide it or another thing to another group, based on what they want... especially if the other group already has the one thing the other group wants but is not being provided with.

Wanting equality, based on one's interests and enjoyments, is NOT segregation.

[NotAboutEgo]

http://www.baseballglory.com/sparks.htm

Check this out. See what these young girls who play baseball are saying. That's what I have been trying to say here. And, this is not just in one small area.

[Erik Bedard]

What you're saying is a lot like what whites in the first half of the 20th century were saying.

"We have no problem with them doing what they want, we just don't want them to do it with us."

Hmmmm...

[NotAboutEgo]

What you're saying is a lot like what whites in the first half of the 20th century were saying.

"We have no problem with them doing what they want, we just don't want them to do it with us."

Hmmmm...


No, you have it wrong... backwards. We aren't saying boys can do what they want but they can't do it with us. We are saying, we want to play baseball, and we want to play with our closest peers... our same gender. So, from what you are saying, ALL teams, leagues, anything... should be mixed-gendered and no one should ever be able to do what they want to do. Why is it that males can say they want to do their thing (like hanging out, hunting, whatever) and they do it and don't want women around (that's their choice if it's not prohibiting women from doing the same thing on their own), but when women say they want to play with other women (girls, also) but they aren't saying they are discluding men, it is seen as wrong? You still haven't answered that.... double standard.

The problem arises from one group (males) prohibiting another group (females) from having the liberties they should have (playing baseball, voting, driving cars, making a living, going to school, etc., etc., etc.). So, when this kind of thing happens, the group that is being tromped on will get sick of it eventually and will start to speak out about it and will start to create things on their own, for them and other members of their group. The same goes for what happened between caucasians and Africans (and whatever other groups) in the U.S. and other countries who were being used as slaves and being controlled and dominated and beaten and whatever. Same thing happened when women in the U.S. were told they couldn't vote (same thing happened for African Americans). They fought and fought and fought and were beaten and were sent to prison and were treated extremely harshly until they eventually broke the opposition down so they could be treated equally in conjunction with one topic... voting.

Girls and women have been fighting the status quo, in the U.S., since at least 1866 to be able to play baseball... a sport that women baseball players love... to be able to play it without being harassed and stereotyped and banned from playing it in certain venues and from being told they "can't play baseball and certainly can't play it with males, because baseball is for boys and softball is for girls (it's just like saying pink is for girls and blue is for boys)." I can't think of a better example of closed-mindedness, insecurity on the part of the dominating parties, and unfairness to humanity as a whole.

[Erik Bedard]

And now things are equal. I agree with you that it's wrong to exclude people because they are girls, but no male person on this board has said "I don't want to play with girls", yet you yourself have said that "girls shouldn't have to play with boys". That's the same principle as "whites shouldn't go to school with blacks".

[NotAboutEgo]

And now things are equal. I agree with you that it's wrong to exclude people because they are girls, but no male person on this board has said "I don't want to play with girls", yet you yourself have said that "girls shouldn't have to play with boys". That's the same principle as "whites shouldn't go to school with blacks".

They may not have said they don't want to play with girls, but certain things they've said suggest how they think... that they are one-sided. Besides, the orignal post is about LL and how unfair the org. is, not about if the people who post on here want to play with females or not.

I don't agree that it's the same principal. If blacks say they choose to create their own school(s) (and vice versa), that's their choice. Their reasoning could be because of their culture and wanting to be amongst their same culture when in school. It's not taking away schools from whites, because there are plenty of other schools around to choose from that whites, blacks, and everyone else can go to. Now, if blacks said they don't want whites to go to school and they have the power and control over the matter and keep them from going, then that's not right. If the black school is the only school within a reasonable distance to some other students... be it whatever ethnic background they are... and the school didn't allow the non-black students to attend it and it's the non-black students' only way of getting an education, that IS segregation and discrimination. Also, if your handbook, bylaws, whatever it is states that you are a fair organization but you are not giving everyone an equal opportunity to do things they are interested in doing, that IS discrimination and makes the organization hypocritical.

You are confusing diversity with segregation stemming from discrimination. Diversity is good... discrimination is not. Segregation often occurs out of discrimination (and sometimes segregation is used as a means of discrimination).

di·ver·si·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-vûrs-t, d-)
n. pl. di·ver·si·ties

The fact or quality of being diverse; difference.
A point or respect in which things differ.
Variety or multiformity: “Charles Darwin saw in the diversity of species the principles of evolution that operated to generate the species: variation, competition and selection” (Scientific American)


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

diversity

n 1: noticeable heterogeneity; "a diversity of possibilities"; "the range and variety of his work is amazing" [syn: diverseness, multifariousness, variety] 2: the condition or result of being changed


dis·crim·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nshn)
n.
The act of discriminating.
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.


Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

discrimination

n 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [syn: favoritism, favouritism] 2: the cognitive process whereby two or more stimuli are distinguished [syn: secernment]

Main Entry: discrimination
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: bias
Synonyms: bigotry, favoritism, hatred, inequity, injustice, intolerance, partiality, prejudice, unfairness, wrong


Is it taking away opportnuities from males if females want to play baseball amongst other females? How would some who have posted on here really feel if they saw a woman or more than one woman playing in MLB or even in the Minors?

[NotAboutEgo]

Furthermore, if a boy who wants to play baseball in an area where there are no boys' teams but there are girls' teams, let him play. No one ever said he can't, and because females want equality for something they enjoy doing and some prefer to play baseball amongst themselves does not in any way, shape, or form say that boys can't play on girls' teams if they have no boys' teams available in their area, or if for some reason they choose to play with girls instead. Rather, it's the male ego and dominance that has created the whole situation in the first place, but some people are so quick to say that females are being completely wrong by what they are doing. Again, it's a double standard.

[Erik Bedard]

They may not have said they don't want to play with girls, but certain things they've said suggest how they think... that they are one-sided. Besides, the orignal post is about LL and how unfair the org. is, not about if the people who post on here want to play with females or not.

I don't agree that it's the same principal. If blacks say they choose to create their own school(s) (and vice versa), that's their choice. Their reasoning could be because of their culture and wanting to be amongst their same culture when in school. It's not taking away schools from whites, because there are plenty of other schools around to choose from that whites, blacks, and everyone else can go to. Now, if blacks said they don't want whites to go to school and they have the power and control over the matter and keep them from going, then that's not right. If the black school is the only school within a reasonable distance to some other students... be it whatever ethnic background they are... and the school didn't allow the non-black students to attend it and it's the non-black students' only way of getting an education, that IS segregation and discrimination. Also, if your handbook, bylaws, whatever it is states that you are a fair organization but you are not giving everyone an equal opportunity to do things they are interested in doing, that IS discrimination and makes the organization hypocritical.

You are confusing diversity with segregation stemming from discrimination. Diversity is good... discrimination is not. Segregation often occurs out of discrimination (and sometimes segregation is used as a means of discrimination).

di·ver·si·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-vûrs-t, d-)
n. pl. di·ver·si·ties

The fact or quality of being diverse; difference.
A point or respect in which things differ.
Variety or multiformity: “Charles Darwin saw in the diversity of species the principles of evolution that operated to generate the species: variation, competition and selection” (Scientific American)


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

diversity

n 1: noticeable heterogeneity; "a diversity of possibilities"; "the range and variety of his work is amazing" [syn: diverseness, multifariousness, variety] 2: the condition or result of being changed


dis·crim·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nshn)
n.
The act of discriminating.
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.


Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

discrimination

n 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [syn: favoritism, favouritism] 2: the cognitive process whereby two or more stimuli are distinguished [syn: secernment]

Main Entry: discrimination
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: bias
Synonyms: bigotry, favoritism, hatred, inequity, injustice, intolerance, partiality, prejudice, unfairness, wrong


Is it taking away opportnuities from males if females want to play baseball amongst other females? How would some who have posted on here really feel if they saw a woman or more than one woman playing in MLB or even in the Minors?

I would be glad if I saw a woman playing pro ball, just as I am glad that Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam are playing in the PGA. However, she would have to be good enough, because, as you said, it's dis·crim·i·na·tion to give "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit"

Back to your other point:

"The fact or quality of being diverse" is just what having two baseball leagues is not.

It's not taking oppurtunities away from males, but it is segregating and it is wrong.

[NotAboutEgo]

I would be glad if I saw a woman playing pro ball, just as I am glad that Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam are playing in the PGA. However, she would have to be good enough, because, as you said, it's dis·crim·i·na·tion to give "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit"

I agree completely about that. You are right.


Back to your other point:

"The fact or quality of being diverse" is just what having two baseball leagues is not.

It's not taking oppurtunities away from males, but it is segregating and it is wrong.

I very highly disagree with that. If it's not taking away opportunities from another group and isn't discriminating and isn't disadvantaging someone, how is it wrong? I guess everything in the whole universe should be done as a whole, nothing ever being separate or diverse... no one ever working on their own... which is completely impossible. Being a diverse group but not hurting or disadvantaging or controlling others is not wrong.

If you are going to go as far as saying if women and girls want their own leagues to play in and it's wrong, then you need to throw everyone and everything in that same basket. So, why are restrooms separated (in most cases... where there is more than on stall/room)?

[pitcher23]

You have a terrible reading problem. You read ONLY what you will support your thoughts (?).

I recommended that she play softball be cause there are next to NO baseball programs in high school that have girls, and I know of NO college that gives out baseball scholarships to girls. Or even will allow any on a team. If she wants a "ride" to college, softball is the way to go. And, what future is there in professional women's baseball? Let's say she plays youth baseball. That's it, PERIOD.

Again, I urge you, learn to read.

Bob


Why, just because there may not be any programs for women right now, should someone be told to succomb to the status quo and not help be part of getting programs going for girls/women? Because there may not be programs right now, doesn't mean they won't be available in the future. As has been stated previously, why not direct someone positively? Because something isn't necessarily available today doesn't mean it won't be available in the future. Because you don't know of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't available. There are colleges (Notre Dame and St. Mary's) that are offering womens baseball as a club sport right now and with a little support, they could be offered as varsity sports very soon.

[NotAboutEgo]

I would be glad if I saw a woman playing pro ball, just as I am glad that Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam are playing in the PGA. However, she would have to be good enough, because, as you said, it's dis·crim·i·na·tion to give "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit"

Back to your other point:

"The fact or quality of being diverse" is just what having two baseball leagues is not.

It's not taking oppurtunities away from males, but it is segregating and it is wrong.

Now we're having a discussion... in a civil manner. Thanks, EB. Some other posters on here don't see it the same way.

[Ubiquitous]

So your advice to these kids (both pitcher23 and NAE) is to become a martyr? "Go tilt some windmills young lady". I found it odd you are telling a complete stranger what he should and should not advice to a young lady you have never met. Not everybody can be Jackie Robinson. It is real easy to be an armchair Dad or Mom for somebody else's kid, and you will virtually always appear to be insightful and full of wisdom. But when the metal hits the meat it is a whole different story. Telling some child to go ahead and do it even though currently there is no future in it is asking a lot out of a little kid. It is asking the kid to risk a lot simply for your cause. You risk her joy, her privacy, and her future simply to create your vision of a better world. That is swell and all but perhaps you should get to know her first before you stick her in front of the cannon.

[Ubiquitous]

Now we're having a discussion... in a civil manner. Thanks, EB. Some other posters on here don't see it the same way.


People act civil when they don't have people throwing labels at them as quickly and as irrationally as you do.

[NotAboutEgo]

So your advice to these kids (both pitcher23 and NAE) is to become a martyr? "Go tilt some windmills young lady". I found it odd you are telling a complete stranger what he should and should not advice to a young lady you have never met. Not everybody can be Jackie Robinson. It is real easy to be an armchair Dad or Mom for somebody else's kid, and you will virtually always appear to be insightful and full of wisdom. But when the metal hits the meat it is a whole different story. Telling some child to go ahead and do it even though currently there is no future in it is asking a lot out of a little kid. It is asking the kid to risk a lot simply for your cause. You risk her joy, her privacy, and her future simply to create your vision of a better world. That is swell and all but perhaps you should get to know her first before you stick her in front of the cannon.

Is giving advice to a child or to anyone by saying "do whatever it is you enjoy and want to do and whatever it is that fulfills your dreams and ambitions and goals and whatever it is that makes you happy, as long as you aren't hurting, controlling, or discriminating against others" saying you HAVE to be a martyr in order to enjoy life and to fulfill your dreams, goals, desires, ambitions? If this is how you think or how you read my post, you are missing the point and what I have said.

If someone who pursues that which makes them happy in life being a martyr? If someone doesn't bow down to the illogical "standards" of others are they doing something wrong? I think not.

That is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Step out of the box, please. Work on finding some positivity in your life (these are suggestions... not commands).

[NotAboutEgo]

Playing baseball if one desires is just one example of this.

[NotAboutEgo]

People act civil when they don't have people throwing labels at them as quickly and as irrationally as you do.

Did I label anyone there? I'm simply pointing out the closed-mindedness of some people... didn't name them. It's an observation, is obvious, and is a fact, based on their statements.

[pitcher23]

So your advice to these kids (both pitcher23 and NAE) is to become a martyr? "Go tilt some windmills young lady". I found it odd you are telling a complete stranger what he should and should not advice to a young lady you have never met. Not everybody can be Jackie Robinson. It is real easy to be an armchair Dad or Mom for somebody else's kid, and you will virtually always appear to be insightful and full of wisdom. But when the metal hits the meat it is a whole different story. Telling some child to go ahead and do it even though currently there is no future in it is asking a lot out of a little kid. It is asking the kid to risk a lot simply for your cause. You risk her joy, her privacy, and her future simply to create your vision of a better world. That is swell and all but perhaps you should get to know her first before you stick her in front of the cannon.

I'm not saying they have to be a martyr, but I'm suggesting to not close the doors to something a person could love to do. I did not suggest the girl should become a Jackie Robinson, only that she could have been encouraged to play baseball and/or softball without being told to play softball only because there isn't a preceived future right now in baseball for girls. I would suggest to her to try both if possible and then determine for herself which she prefers and has more fun.

[Ubiquitous]

When you respond to someone and tell them their ego is getting in the way, or that they are adding to the sexism and discrimination, or that they are bigots, and so on.
That is why people will act uncivil to you. Don't expect some to treat you nicely when you call them a bigot.

[bluezebra]

Why, just because there may not be any programs for women right now, should someone be told to succomb to the status quo and not help be part of getting programs going for girls/women? Because there may not be programs right now, doesn't mean they won't be available in the future. As has been stated previously, why not direct someone positively? Because something isn't necessarily available today doesn't mean it won't be available in the future. Because you don't know of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't available. There are colleges (Notre Dame and St. Mary's) that are offering womens baseball as a club sport right now and with a little support, they could be offered as varsity sports very soon.

Right. And she'll be a grandmother before Women's Varsity Baseball will be played in college. Club ball is lower than DIV III. No scholarships.

Bob

[NotAboutEgo]

Right. And she'll be a grandmother before Women's Varsity Baseball will be played in college. Club ball is lower than DIV III. No scholarships.

Bob

Are you so sure of that? Does every college, Division I or otherwise, have club sports that eventually become varsity sports... ever? Do some colleges start sports programs that didn't previously exist, because there is a big interest in starting them?

[pitcher23]

People act civil when they don't have people throwing labels at them as quickly and as irrationally as you do.


It seems to me, these are the kinds of comments that I was told would be best suited as a private message, not for general posting. I believe there is a true double standard as to what is allowed and what not allowed to be posted.

[NotAboutEgo]

When you respond to someone and tell them their ego is getting in the way, or that they are adding to the sexism and discrimination, or that they are bigots, and so on.
That is why people will act uncivil to you. Don't expect some to treat you nicely when you call them a bigot.

Why don't you tell that to other posters on here who have called others names as well?


big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


bigot
n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


I'm not name calling or labeling... just stating the obvious.

[NotAboutEgo]

Plus, I wasn't referring to how some people treat others here. I am talking about the topic and how it is talked about. I don't care about what others say to me personally. Me being attacked by them isn't going to hurt my feelings.

[Ubiquitous]

Is giving advice to a child or to anyone by saying "do whatever it is you enjoy and want to do and whatever it is that fulfills your dreams and ambitions and goals and whatever it is that makes you happy, .....

SO if their is no future in baseball for girls at this moment how is she going to fulfill her dreams, ambitions, and goals? Baseball/softball is not the only thing going on peoples life, it is merely part of ones life and in reality for 99% of us it is a small part of our overall life. Again you ladies don't know her situation, you don't know her financial situation, you don't even know what her long term plans and dreams are. If her family cannot afford college (and a child nowadays must go to college to improve their lot in life) then getting a scholarship is their best option. Telling a child to pursue baseball which has no scholarships is a horrible way to tell a kid to fulfill their dreams, ambitions, and goals. By doing so you make it that much harder to do fullfil those things. By pursuing baseball she might fulfill a small part of her dreams, goals, and ambitions but closing off a huge section of her dreams, goals, and ambition. By pursuing softball she might only be modifying one small section of dreams, goals, and ambitions, but making it possible that a large segment of her dreams goals, and ambitions to come true. As a parent, as a mentor, as a rolemodel, as somebody who knows her they can help put all of that in perspective, to weight the good and the bad and give advice. And they can do that far far better then some stranger who doesn't know the girl.

[pitcher23]

Right. And she'll be a grandmother before Women's Varsity Baseball will be played in college. Club ball is lower than DIV III. No scholarships.

Bob


And you base that comment on what?? Aside from the fact I believe you are way off line with the comment, Womens Varsity Baseball will happen much sooner, what difference does it make if there are scholarships?? Why does everything have to come down to money or free rides?? Why can't the game be played for no other reason than they want to play?? What difference does it make at what level the game is played? Taking college football as an example, there are some pretty bad college football teams out there but the players are there to play the game for fun and don't expect anything to happen after college. Many players play the game without scholarships but continue to play for the fun of it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Ubiquitous]

It seems to me, these are the kinds of comments that I was told would be best suited as a private message, not for general posting. I believe there is a true double standard as to what is allowed and what not allowed to be posted.


There is not a double standard, everybody who veered off into insults was told not to do so privately and told to keep on message. I had hoped that by doing this privately we could continue to talk about baseball and not get into squabbles that would force the closure of this thread. Something the webmaster does not want. But when I came on this morning I felt that it was veering back into petty squabbles, at that point I tried to make a public statement. It hasn't worked since we are now debating that instead of baseball. This will be my last public statement on it, and after this I will only do so in PM. I urge the rest of you to do the same and to keep the public face of this conversation about baseball.

[bluezebra]

Are you so sure of that? Does every college, Division I or otherwise, have club sports that eventually become varsity sports... ever? Do some colleges start sports programs that didn't previously exist, because there is a big interest in starting them?

All sports at DIV I schools are not D-I. I umpired some games at Loyola-Marymount in LA. Their basketball program was D-I, but the softball team was D-III. The University of Southern California has D-I sports, EXCEPT in Women's Softball. I umpired some USC games about 15 years ago. The team had club status then, and STILL isn't a Varsity program. USC has 15 Varsity Athletic Programs, nine for women, and one co-ed. But NO softball. So how long do you want a young girl to wait?

I was the bench coach/sorekeeper for a Varsity HS baseball team. One school we played (a VERY small Christian school) had a girl catcher, because there weren't enough boys to field a team. She played catcher, which in my estimation, is the toughest position on the field, and did an excellent job. I told her so after the game, because I admire good play. Would she have been on the team if there were enough boys? I don't know, but I would hope so, because she was GOOD.

Bob

[pitcher23]

SO if their is no future in baseball for girls at this moment how is she going to fulfill her dreams, ambitions, and goals? Baseball/softball is not the only thing going on peoples life, it is merely part of ones life and in reality for 99% of us it is a small part of our overall life. Again you ladies don't know her situation, you don't know her financial situation, you don't even know what her long term plans and dreams are. If her family cannot afford college (and a child nowadays must go to college to improve their lot in life) then getting a scholarship is their best option. Telling a child to pursue baseball which has no scholarships is a horrible way to tell a kid to fulfill their dreams, ambitions, and goals. By doing so you make it that much harder to do fullfil those things. By pursuing baseball she might fulfill a small part of her dreams, goals, and ambitions but closing off a huge section of her dreams, goals, and ambition. By pursuing softball she might only be modifying one small section of dreams, goals, and ambitions, but making it possible that a large segment of her dreams goals, and ambitions to come true. As a parent, as a mentor, as a rolemodel, as somebody who knows her they can help put all of that in perspective, to weight the good and the bad and give advice. And they can do that far far better then some stranger who doesn't know the girl.


I think you are making some presumptions yourself! What if the opposite is true and her family will be able to afford college? I don't think the question was posted here to find answers from people they already knew. Again, scholarships do not mean a goal is fulfilled or not. I know a number of women (and men) who absolutely love the game and would do anything to play. However, the talent level they possess would not be enough to bring a scholarship offer. But they play the game because they love to, not because there may be a future in it for them. I think by telling her to focus on softball, that could potentially be the same as suggesting girls don't play baseball, therefore crushing a dream. It's hard to say for sure since we DON'T know anything about her. Because of that, my suggestion would be to try both and then decide on her own what she wants to pursue.

[bluezebra]

Taking college football as an example, there are some pretty bad college football teams out there but the players are there to play the game for fun and don't expect anything to happen after college. Many players play the game without scholarships but continue to play for the fun of it. I don't see anything wrong with that.


I don't either. I played college football for fun, with no idea of going pro. The schools that don't give scholarships are D-III, or play club ball. Usually they are specialized schools, and the players just want to play football. But, with the high cost of a college education, getting a scholarship is the way to go. Not everyone has wealthy parents. I couldn't afford college if it wasn't for the GI Bill.

Bob

[Ubiquitous]

I am not assuming anything, I'm offering scenarios. I am not judging him or this girls choices. I'm not telling him to tell her one thing or the other. I do not know her situation.

[Erik Bedard]

Personally, I don't see any reason why a boy would want to play softball, (aside from meeting girls), but what Astro said is true, male humans are stronger than female humans in general, which thus means that they can make longer throws, pitch faster, hit farther, and a 13-year old male with average speed can outrun all but the best 13-year old females. I don't think it's fair to the girls who want to play softball that they have to put up with boys who are clearly better than them. However, there could be an "A League" and a "B League", in both sports, with the "A League" being the best players and the "B League being everybody else.

BTW, NAE, there was a short story I read not too long ago called What Did We Do Wrong?. It was about the first woman to play in the Majors. You should read it. It might interest you.

[JeepingBaseball]

SO if their is no future in baseball for girls at this moment how is she going to fulfill her dreams, ambitions, and goals? Baseball/softball is not the only thing going on peoples life, it is merely part of ones life and in reality for 99% of us it is a small part of our overall life. Again you ladies don't know her situation, you don't know her financial situation, you don't even know what her long term plans and dreams are. If her family cannot afford college (and a child nowadays must go to college to improve their lot in life) then getting a scholarship is their best option. Telling a child to pursue baseball which has no scholarships is a horrible way to tell a kid to fulfill their dreams, ambitions, and goals. By doing so you make it that much harder to do fullfil those things. By pursuing baseball she might fulfill a small part of her dreams, goals, and ambitions but closing off a huge section of her dreams, goals, and ambition. By pursuing softball she might only be modifying one small section of dreams, goals, and ambitions, but making it possible that a large segment of her dreams goals, and ambitions to come true. As a parent, as a mentor, as a rolemodel, as somebody who knows her they can help put all of that in perspective, to weight the good and the bad and give advice. And they can do that far far better then some stranger who doesn't know the girl.

I have to disagree with you. And my disagreement is base on the way I grew up. The basics of life is a given... and that includes taking risks. You might be particially right about the future of baseball, and I only say that because I doubt anyone here can predict the future. We hope and when it does happen, we say "told ya so!" Netherless, the future is there for us to embrace and what we do today can greatly change the outcome of our future.

This young girl who wants to play baseball... go for it. Do what you want to do and not what anybody else tells you to do. Dream big, aim high and try hard. There's nothing worst in life then to sit back one day and say "hmmm what if...?"

While I understand if you want to go somewhere in life, there's certain steps in order one should take to get there. I completely understand that. There's always going to be someone special who going to defeat the odds and take a different route. Her achievement might be big or small, failed or successful to people like you and I.

But to her? She probably wouldnt trade the experience for anything in the world and would probably be one of her proudest moments of her life. She probably wouldnt care if she made millions or lost millions in the process. But millions would be nice, wouldnt it? There's one thing in life that never fails (and lord knows we've tried): Love always wins over money.

There's a soul within us all and we tend to it. In most cases, people fight you on it saying anything from it's not realistic, not worthwhile, it wont take you anywhere, theres no money in it, you'll be a laughing stock, ect ect ect.

If I had a kid and he or she said "Mom, I want to be baseball star when i grow up!"... i would simply say "go for it" and give the kid every opportunity to do so. Maybe it'll be a phrase and wear off and the kid turns out to be a stockbroker. Maybe not. The thing is we dont know. Life is too short as it is and this world isnt getting any friendlier or easier.

Let her try. Let her march to the beat of her own drum. What's so wrong with that?

[NotAboutEgo]

SO if their is no future in baseball for girls at this moment how is she going to fulfill her dreams, ambitions, and goals? Baseball/softball is not the only thing going on peoples life, it is merely part of ones life and in reality for 99% of us it is a small part of our overall life. Again you ladies don't know her situation, you don't know her financial situation, you don't even know what her long term plans and dreams are. If her family cannot afford college (and a child nowadays must go to college to improve their lot in life) then getting a scholarship is their best option. Telling a child to pursue baseball which has no scholarships is a horrible way to tell a kid to fulfill their dreams, ambitions, and goals. By doing so you make it that much harder to do fullfil those things. By pursuing baseball she might fulfill a small part of her dreams, goals, and ambitions but closing off a huge section of her dreams, goals, and ambition. By pursuing softball she might only be modifying one small section of dreams, goals, and ambitions, but making it possible that a large segment of her dreams goals, and ambitions to come true. As a parent, as a mentor, as a rolemodel, as somebody who knows her they can help put all of that in perspective, to weight the good and the bad and give advice. And they can do that far far better then some stranger who doesn't know the girl.

You are saying there is no future for girls'/women's baseball at the moment, but you don't know what will happen in the future. Also, since things are progressing for girls' and women's baseball, there IS in fact a future for it. If no girls or women were interested in playing, and if nothing was happening in the way of progression, it would suggest that there may not be a future in it, but no one can ever predict the future. Saying there is no future in it is a huge assumption.

That's why we gave her advice on how to approach her father and gave her scenarios... i.e. examples... of why he may not be allowing her to play baseball. She said she doesn't know why he said she can't play and she asked for help, so we were working on helping her. They were merely suggestions. But, telling a child flat out that they need to let go of their dreams, desires, ambitions, goals, etc. is very stifling, controlling, and anti-progressive. We weren't telling her to pursue baseball. She stated she wants to play but her dad won't let her and she asked for help. So, we suggested ways of approaching her dad and gave her suggestions as to why he may be saying no. She can do what she WANTS to do and what she chooses. We aren't asking her to fulfill anything.

It seems that you have advice, suggestions, speaking from experience, etc. mixed up with telling someone to do something hazardous. Furthermore, one doesn't need to know someone personally in order to offer help and advice. Perhaps she won't be able to play now because of whatever circumstances. But, she may have the chance to play in the future... when in college (for a college or recreationally) and beyond. Telling her to give it up now can stifle a lot within her... not just her dream of playing baseball. Perhaps it will affect her to the point of her not wanting to or not being able to try anything in life. That's extremely anti-progressive and IS hazardous.

[NotAboutEgo]

All sports at DIV I schools are not D-I. I umpired some games at Loyola-Marymount in LA. Their basketball program was D-I, but the softball team was D-III. The University of Southern California has D-I sports, EXCEPT in Women's Softball. I umpired some USC games about 15 years ago. The team had club status then, and STILL isn't a Varsity program. USC has 15 Varsity Athletic Programs, nine for women, and one co-ed. But NO softball. So how long do you want a young girl to wait?

I know that, Bob. But that's not what we are debating here... whether all college sports are Div-I at the colleges with Div-I status. Well, I waited 27 years to play organized baseball, and it turned out that it DID happen, and I am very happy about it.


I was the bench coach/sorekeeper for a Varsity HS baseball team. One school we played (a VERY small Christian school) had a girl catcher, because there weren't enough boys to field a team. She played catcher, which in my estimation, is the toughest position on the field, and did an excellent job. I told her so after the game, because I admire good play. Would she have been on the team if there were enough boys? I don't know, but I would hope so, because she was GOOD.

Bob

I really like your story about the female catcher. That's very cool. Perhaps she would have been beat out by a boy who was better... perhaps not. I am not debating that at all. I started catching when I was 10 and caught all the way through high school and was a walk-on at a college but didn't play because I needed to make a living for myself while in college. I then began catching in baseball in 2000, which was a challenge compared to catching in softball because of the larger field, but I grew with it and heightened my skills to be able to throw to 2nd and throw out fast baserunners.

I agree that catching is by far one of the thoughest positions on the field... I say "one of the toughest" because I am a pitcher now, and when I first pitched I realized how much more physically and mentally challenging pitching is. That's from my perspective from my experience. There is so much more to pay attention to, but if one plays enough and they have the ability to overcome the challenge of it, it is extremely fun and rewarding. I absolutely love pitching, even more than I love catching. I love the mental and physical challenges of it.

[NotAboutEgo]

Taking college football as an example, there are some pretty bad college football teams out there but the players are there to play the game for fun and don't expect anything to happen after college. Many players play the game without scholarships but continue to play for the fun of it. I don't see anything wrong with that.


I don't either. I played college football for fun, with no idea of going pro. The schools that don't give scholarships are D-III, or play club ball. Usually they are specialized schools, and the players just want to play football. But, with the high cost of a college education, getting a scholarship is the way to go. Not everyone has wealthy parents. I couldn't afford college if it wasn't for the GI Bill.

Bob

It is a good way to go if you can do it, but not everyone can get a scholarship, and everyone may not have that same goal. I happened to get an academic scholarship, but not everyone can do that, either. She can plan her future in other ways... i.e... "if pro women's baseball is available in the future, I want to go for it and would like to start training now for it. If it doesn't happen, I still want to play just because I love it." I'm sure she is going to fiind one or two or even more things she enjoys doing and may be able to do as a career. What I am saying is, it's harmful to limit what a person can do. It's harmful to tell them not to strive for something they want to pursue.

[Erik Bedard]

A few years back in my league there was a girl who played catcher and hit cleanup. She was really good; better than most boys in the league. Now she's too old for the league, but she still coaches 1B and her sister plays (although she's horrible). If a girl wants to play baseball, and she's good enough, by all means let her play.

[NotAboutEgo]

A few years back in my league there was a girl who played catcher and hit cleanup. She was really good; better than most boys in the league. Now she's too old for the league, but she still coaches 1B and her sister plays (although she's horrible). If a girl wants to play baseball, and she's good enough, by all means let her play.

Yep! Exactly! Let anyone do anything they desire, as long as it doesn't discriminate against others (or hurt them, of course).

[Baseball_Canada_21]

You are saying there is no future for girls'/women's baseball at the moment, but you don't know what will happen in the future. Also, since things are progressing for girls' and women's baseball, there IS in fact a future for it. If no girls or women were interested in playing, and if nothing was happening in the way of progression, it would suggest that there may not be a future in it, but no one can ever predict the future. Saying there is no future in it is a huge assumption.

There is a future for women's baseball. This year John Kovach from St. Mary's is starting a women's baseball league down in the states at Notre Dame. Hopefully, after a demonstration year or two there is going to be funding for scholarships like the women's softball teams. Also, there are a lot of opportunities to play for the Women's National Team and play in international tournaments like the World Cup.

Notre Dame Baseball (http://www.uswb.org/news_article_02.htm)

[Nellie]

Everyone should be free to do/play any sport that they wish to. Forget the control.

[5LilPlayers]

I tried to hold my posts until I read through this entire thread (gee, the things that happen when you're away for 2 weeks!)....but I couldn't when I saw this:


No, you dont listen... you want to paint a picture of girls being treated unfair...

This is evident in the fact that you state "girls have to play baseball with the boys"... When on another thread you are talking about how girls can be just as good as boys while playing baseball...

You can not have it both ways, so make up your mind on which side of the fence you want to be on

What fence?

In Little League, girls ARE forced to play with the boys.

Girls CAN be just as good as (or better than) the boys she's FORCED to play with.

BUT....just because a girl IS as good as (or better than) a boy does not mean she should HAVE to play with the boys in that one particular league....a league that CLAIMS to be fair & equal to both genders.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On that note, commenting on other posts I've read so far:

cartersball:

Did you run the numbers? 121 girls out of 768 kids signing up means that almost 1/3 of the sign-ups were girls. Going with a 12 person team, that would be enough for TEN girls' teams there....going with a 16 person team, that would still be enough for EIGHT girls' teams.

Think in teams, and that's quite a bit.

Even with only 8 all-girl teams, playing each team 3 times during the season, that would be enough for 21 games. I know of leagues that only play 10 or 12 games a season...21 games would also mean plenty of playing time for the girls, as well.

This, of course, has to be adjusted for other factors...namely, age divisions. But going by numbers ALONE...that's an awful lot of girls, not "just a few", as it seemed you were trying to make it sound like.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KCGHOST:

It's not about a specific group wanting to sponsor a boys' league...and that IN ITSELF means it's obligating them to start a girls' version.

The gender discrimination comes into play beacuse this specific league claims to be fair to both genders.

FAIR would be girl's softball, boy's softball, girl's baseball, AND boy's baseball.

Since boys are wanting to play softball, they SHOULD be forced to play on the girl's softball teams already in existence, just as the girls are (and have been) forced to play with the boys if they wish to play baseball.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ubiquitous:

Yes, Little League is National. National means "everywhere" in the USA. Even ONE team from every state would mean 48 teams, using cities that are close (Detroit/Toledo, etc.) Little League could start a girls' baseball division as travel teams until it catches on more. Hawaii and Alaska might have to wait until it caught on more, in this circumstance, as there aren't any "close" cities to those two states. But even 4 or 5 teams, mostly the major cities, of EVERY state, would mean 200 to 250 teams.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personally, I know a LOT more girls who want to play baseball over softball and ONLY play softball because they are told "girls can't play baseball". I've talked to 3 little girls on my block alone (not to mention 3 of my own daughters) who want to play baseball because softball is "boring".

There are also several, in the kids' school, who have said they'd drop softball in a heartbeat if there were girls leagues around.

Geographically, my location is perfect for starting a girls' league. I know this is NOT the case everywhere. But it WILL work here in my area.

QUESTION, for those saying "girls don't want to play" in their area....

Have you surveyed every girl within your area? Do you know how many aren't signing up for baseball in areas that offer Little League or other co-ed teams just because they don't want to put up with the taunting or because they'd rather play with girls and since "girls only play softball", they want to be with their friends or...for whatever reason? How do you KNOW that every single one of the girls in your area (or at least those who don't show up for Little League, or other co-ed leagues) doesn't want to play baseball?

[5LilPlayers]

No one is going to take their kid 50 miles to play in an all girls baseball league, when they can sign them up for a mixed league 5 miles down the road....

A GOOD parent (aunt/uncle, cousin, whoever) would do it, if it was in the best interest of the girl...or if the girl was old enough to choose. If my daughters wanted to play baseball with other females, and the closest all-girl team/league was 50 miles away, you can bet your butt I'd be driving them there if it was what they truly wanted to do!


My friend could have played baseball for our high school team, I did and she was almost as good as I was.... but she choose to play softball because thats what all of her friends, who were girls, were doing.... there was no, "YOU CANT PLAY BECAUSE YOU ARE A GIRL!"

Then she either wasn't as interested in baseball anymore and/or there wasn't a female-only team in your high school. If it was her deepest desire to play baseball, she would have joined. Males and females are different, thankfully, but there's something to be said about the "unity" of an all-one-gender team. Either gender can discuss things with others of their gender more freely than they can when you mix genders. Girls who turn to softball instead of baseball sometimes do it because they like the fact that they can talk to their entire team about "boy problems" or "how cute so-and-so is" and the like. A girl, going up to her male teammate, commenting on "how <insert popular boys' name here> looks SOOOO good in his uniform" is going to get some odd looks from that boy...just as boy going to his female teammate talking about "Did you see <insert popular girl's name> in that skirt she wore yesterday?" will. Especially at the youth level. Both genders tend to seek out their own gender for those 'heart to heart" talks at the Little League age levels. There are plenty of things both genders can discuss (music, tv shows, movies, etc.)...but it's more fun (for either sex) to have that unity only a specific gender-based activity can provide.

I don't really believe in "seperate but equal" in MOST cases, but because males and females are different, there are times when gender-segregation will sway someone enough that they either join or walk away from that particular activity.

[cartersball]

5LilPlayers:
Did you run the numbers? 121 girls out of 768 kids signing up means that almost 1/3 of the sign-ups were girls. Going with a 12 person team, that would be enough for TEN girls' teams there....going with a 16 person team, that would still be enough for EIGHT girls' teams.

Think in teams, and that's quite a bit.

Even with only 8 all-girl teams, playing each team 3 times during the season, that would be enough for 21 games. I know of leagues that only play 10 or 12 games a season...21 games would also mean plenty of playing time for the girls, as well.

This, of course, has to be adjusted for other factors...namely, age divisions. But going by numbers ALONE...that's an awful lot of girls, not "just a few", as it seemed you were trying to make it sound like.

Not quite what I was intending to sound like but I agree with you. My point was we are trying to rebuild a girls program, namely softball, but if need be I can argue for baseball. These do seem like large numbers, but separate those 12 teams into divisions eg: Coach Pitch, Minors, Majors, and Juniors/Seniors(not enough for two separate divisions at this age level). You are looking at 3 CP teams, 3 Minors teams, 4 Majors teams, and 2 Junior/Senior teams. They did play many games and even tried to compete in allstar play. You can check out the league and setup @ www.swfll.org .Like I said these numbers are consistently going down. I was looking for more ideas to get the girls interested. I have tried everything my male mind will generate, including a group of thier peers who go out and promote the program twice weekly.

[5LilPlayers]

Telling some child to go ahead and do it even though currently there is no future in it is asking a lot out of a little kid. It is asking the kid to risk a lot simply for your cause

It's not asking the kid to "risk a lot simply for a cause". This 12 yr. old little girl asked how to approach her father on the matter. SHE requested it. SHE wants to play baseball, but it's what SHE enjoys.

And you said it yourself, "even though currently there is no future in it"...CURRENTLY many women's leagues are in operation, or starting, around the USA. This child was 12...who's to say that by that time she she's looking at colleges there WON'T be any college teams (if she even wants to go to college). Who's to say that by the time she's a legal adult there won't be any women's professional teams? If this little girl is determined enough, she could be a fine addition to some of the adult leagues already in operation. Not to mention, it's fun for her NOW.

Even if there is NEVER another professional women's league again, there are more and more elite women's teams forming...that old phrase "don't quit your day job" comes into play. Just because a female can't (or may not be able to) make a living in baseball doesn't mean a woman can't - now or in the future - get a job in a city that does offer a women's league, even if they only play on the weekends (with a handful of make-up games or normally scheduled ones after normal work hours). Jobs aren't just the traditional 9 - 5's anymore, which also helps allow for more flexability in playing times/days for women. Add in more and more females owning/operating their own businesses, who will more than likely be supportive (not saying men won't be!!)...some are fortunate enough to be able to go in early one day, so they can take off a little earlier to play...not to mention the jobs that are now available (new as well as for those who've been with a company for "x amount" of years) where you can work from home and set your own hours.

I don't know about when...but as college teams are starting for women...it makes sense that eventually, whether it's when that little 12 yr. old (or any 12 yr. old girl currently playing) is old enough to go to college, or her great granddaughters...young women WILL be able to get baseball scholarships as well as the thousands of young men who have been for years.

Not to mention...who's to say that in even one more year, she (or any other girl) will still want to play baseball?

QUESTION FOR YOU:

With the mentality that girls shouldn't be advised to play on the grounds of there supposedly not being any future in it for them:

What about the boys who drop out of hardball? Should we push them back into baseball just because there currently IS a chance for them in the sport??

[5LilPlayers]

5LilPlayers:

Not quite what I was intending to sound like but I agree with you.

Ok. :) It's just...usually when I see numbers, I assume it's someone saying "there aren't enough". I was hoping you didn't mean it like that. And...yep, like I said...the age divisions:


These do seem like large numbers, but separate those 12 teams into divisions eg: Coach Pitch, Minors, Majors, and Juniors/Seniors(not enough for two separate divisions at this age level). You are looking at 3 CP teams, 3 Minors teams, 4 Majors teams, and 2 Junior/Senior teams.

That does kind of screw it up a bit. LOL Not really enough teams for each of the age groups. But at least you know there is still some interest on the girls' part.


Like I said these numbers are consistently going down. I was looking for more ideas to get the girls interested. I have tried everything my male mind will generate, including a group of thier peers who go out and promote the program twice weekly.

We've been offered several suggestions for starting our girls' league here. If you like, I could share some of our ideas in a PM. The more leagues we offer the girls, I think, the more girls will come out. I mean...who knows? We could have the next (female) Babe Ruth "hiding" in her room or the next (female) Roger Clemens could be at the local mall all because she doesn't want to play with the boys...for whatever reason.

[Ubiquitous]

QUESTION FOR YOU:

With the mentality that girls shouldn't be advised to play on the grounds of there supposedly not being any future in it for them:

What about the boys who drop out of hardball? Should we push them back into baseball just because there currently IS a chance for them in the sport??

Well if their parents can't afford college without a scholarship then yeah one should definitely push a child into some sort of area in which they can get a scholarship. Whether it is academic or athletic.

[cartersball]

Okay, please Pm me the info. In the meanwhile let me tell you this:

I have an eight year old little girl on my travel baseball team. She is better than pretty much all of the boys. I would love for her to continue playing baseball, but I fear as she gets older other people will be trying to coerce her into softball. Two seasons ago her dad was convinced he needed to put her in softball. I promptly pulled out my LLWS tapes and spliced in some "A League of Thier Own" clips, and proved to him that she could continue on the baseball path for awhile. How should I approach this as I am sure it will happen again?

[JeepingBaseball]

Well if their parents can't afford college without a scholarship then yeah one should definitely push a child into some sort of area in which they can get a scholarship. Whether it is academic or athletic.

That's not a good attitude. I'm not knocking education at all, but going to college is not for everyone. So telling someone not to pursue a dream because you dont think there will be any scholarships for her is, in hindsight, iggnorance. Besides you just said "whether it is academic or athletic"... so why say no to baseball? Unless you want to imply that you cant be athletic and smart? But surely, you didnt mean that.

[NotAboutEgo]

Well if their parents can't afford college without a scholarship then yeah one should definitely push a child into some sort of area in which they can get a scholarship. Whether it is academic or athletic.

Parents (and anyone for that matter) shouldn't push a child into anything. Number one, children should be exposed to many things while growing up, but it is their choice about what they like and what they want to do. Number two, a child's life is theirs to live, so why should a parent or parents force them into anything? That child will grow into an adult, and it's their choice how they will experience it. If people can't afford to pay for their children's college tuition, there are other alternative besides scholarships. Who's to say someone will even get a acholarship if they try to? It's not something you can plan for. One can get students loans to help pay for collge, they can work their way through college, they can join a branch of the armed forces, they can join ROTC (which pays every cent of tuition as long as you stick to the plan), etc. Parents should offer their children advice, direction if they need it, ideas, information,e tc., but they should not push (as in control) their children. A lot of people should learn that and stop trying to have control over their children's futures.

[5LilPlayers]

Well if their parents can't afford college without a scholarship then yeah one should definitely push a child into some sort of area in which they can get a scholarship. Whether it is academic or athletic.

That's great...push them in and push them right back out again. Even if a child loves science, math, baseball, or football....if you push them, they're eventually going to resist. It won't be as fun for them anymore and they'll drop out. If they're lucky, they may be able to get a scholarship some other way...but pushing them JUST because you want them to get a scholarship is pushing them right out the door to that field, whatever it may be.

[Ubiquitous]

Ah yes three people beating me up for using the word "push" which by the way I was simply using because that was the word used towards me in a question, and I was simply responding to the question. The world isn't black and white and the way you view how words are used and what they mean is not the same for everybody in this world.

[JeepingBaseball]

Excuse me, I did not comment on the word "push" but rather went into the idea of your comment. If my own comments came across as an attack to you, then you've misunderstood me. We each have our own opinions and the right to express them. You made a point, and I've made mine.

My question to you now is: After a few expressed opinions, do you still stand by your comment when you said:


Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Well if their parents can't afford college without a scholarship then yeah one should definitely push a child into some sort of area in which they can get a scholarship. Whether it is academic or athletic.

In addition, when you said:


Ah yes three people beating me up for using the word "push" which by the way I was simply using because that was the word used towards me in a question, and I was simply responding to the question. The world isn't black and white and the way you view how words are used and what they mean is not the same for everybody in this world.

To me, it does appear you took it in a black and white way yourself when your earlier comment clearly expressed that.

[Ubiquitous]

Yes children of America should most definitely go to college. Whether they want to or not. A child is just that a child, one that generally cannot be trusted to make decisions that have long term consequences. I don't care whether a child is "cutout" for college or not, in fact I find that whole line of reasoning a copout or an excuse to explain away something inconvenient. In this day and age one needs more then just high school education to have a life that isn't a total struggle. AT one point in this country some people were thought of as not "cutout" for high school. Nowadays I don't think anybody holds that opinion about the great majority of children. College is getting to that point now if it isn't already there.

[NotAboutEgo]

Ah yes three people beating me up for using the word "push" which by the way I was simply using because that was the word used towards me in a question, and I was simply responding to the question. The world isn't black and white and the way you view how words are used and what they mean is not the same for everybody in this world.

Yes, everyone has their own perception of everything, but the fact that 3 people took your comment as meaning that everyone should push their children into something so they can get a scholarship made it seem pretty clear what your comment was about. If you meant something different, than perhaps it was explained wrongly by you.

If you take everything so personally and as an attack, perhaps you can seek something that will help you relax. As JB stated, we are allowed to make comments as to one's post and as to our opinions, and those are our opinions. That is one of the purposes of a forum, is it not?

[Ubiquitous]

Yes, everyone has their own perception of everything, but the fact that 3 people took your comment as meaning that everyone should push their children into something so they can get a scholarship made it seem pretty clear what your comment was about. If you meant something different, than perhaps it was explained wrongly by you.

Or perhaps you should have read the post I was responding too. If you look you will see that in the first paragraph they used the word adviced and then when they wanted to flip the tables they used the word pushed. Therefore advice/pushed is interchangable in that post and that was what I was responding too.



If you take everything so personally and as an attack, perhaps you can seek something that will help you relax. As JB stated, we are allowed to make comments as to one's post and as to our opinions, and those are our opinions. That is one of the purposes of a forum, is it not?

How am I taking anything personally? How am I not relaxed? Am I calling you names, am I using expletives? I simply pointed out that three (okay really only 2 but the third linking my statements to jocks being dumb) decided to focus on the word "push" in my posts when it wasn't even me who started using the word push in this debate. If 5lilplayers had used the word "encouraged" instead of "push" I would have used the word encourage. Nor have I told anyone not to share their opinion.

[NotAboutEgo]

Yes children of America should most definitely go to college. Whether they want to or not. A child is just that a child, one that generally cannot be trusted to make decisions that have long term consequences. I don't care whether a child is "cutout" for college or not, in fact I find that whole line of reasoning a copout or an excuse to explain away something inconvenient. In this day and age one needs more then just high school education to have a life that isn't a total struggle. AT one point in this country some people were thought of as not "cutout" for high school. Nowadays I don't think anybody holds that opinion about the great majority of children. College is getting to that point now if it isn't already there.

That is your opinion, and that's fine. I, however, disagree with you that every person should go to college and it's a copout if they don't. What if they decide to start a business when they get out of high school, what if they choose to work in the family business as their career, what if they choose the military, what if they choose to go into the Peace Corps to help others, what if they choose something besides college and do something that makes them happy and that works for them? Who has the right to tell them they are wrong and they have to do what someone else wants them to do?

This isn't about a child not knowing what to do and how to make decisions. Most people in high school know what they want to do and have a good idea about it long before they graduate from high school. Some people need more direction and advice than others, and some don't figure out what they want to do until later down the road, however long that is, and after working for a while, and some go to college and pick a career and decide later and discover another career they'd rather pursue. It's fine to give advice and help and direction to others, but one should NOT control another, regardless.

To me, it' sounds like everything to you is black and white and you believe that one person controlling another person is how it should be. I guess it does answer my questions about your posts on here.

People have free will and choices and they should make them for themselves. That's what life is about... learning, experiencing, making choices, being happy, etc. But it isn't about imposing control onto another.

"Yes children of America should most definitely go to college. Whether they want to or not." — This statement you have made scares me a LOT. So, you belive in force and control and having power over others?

[NotAboutEgo]

Or perhaps you should have read the post I was responding too. If you look you will see that in the first paragraph they used the word adviced and then when they wanted to flip the tables they used the word pushed. Therefore advice/pushed is interchangable in that post and that was what I was responding too.



How am I taking anything personally? How am I not relaxed? Am I calling you names, am I using expletives? I simply pointed out that three (okay really only 2 but the third linking my statements to jocks being dumb) decided to focus on the word "push" in my posts when it wasn't even me who started using the word push in this debate. If 5lilplayers had used the word "encouraged" instead of "push" I would have used the word encourage. Nor have I told anyone not to share their opinion.

The post from 5LP that you responded to had to do with her asking if we should push boys who drop out of baseball back into it just so they can pursue it as a career. She was questioning people pushing kids into something and wasn't at all saying that's how she feels. Your comment was about how people should push their kids into something academic or atheletic related so they can get scholarships. I don't see anything in either comment relating to advice at all. I disagree that giving advice and pushing are interchangeable and are the same thing.

My comment about relaxing has to do with the fact thaqt you said 3 people are attacking you for your comment. It suggests you are taking it personally. From what I've read, it seems that many things that have been posted have been taken personally by you.

[JeepingBaseball]

Yes children of America should most definitely go to college. Whether they want to or not. A child is just that a child, one that generally cannot be trusted to make decisions that have long term consequences. I don't care whether a child is "cutout" for college or not, in fact I find that whole line of reasoning a copout or an excuse to explain away something inconvenient. In this day and age one needs more then just high school education to have a life that isn't a total struggle. AT one point in this country some people were thought of as not "cutout" for high school. Nowadays I don't think anybody holds that opinion about the great majority of children. College is getting to that point now if it isn't already there.

I have to disagree with once again. Base on facts. Back in the 50's and 60's... not everyone could afford to go to college. Scholarships were not a dime a dozen as they are today. Familys were larger then which made their chances even slimer. Women of those times were usually married by the time they were 20 years old and started a family. Yet, their generation worked hard, and did what they had to do. Would you call them all a copout? This day and age children you speak of... are a reflection upon their own parents.

A scenerio... totally hypothectical: Your parents had no money for college, raised you the best they knew how, you succeed well in life and paid your own way to college. (Your parents must have done something right with raising you... next generation:) You get married and have a child. You "encourage" your child to do something that you believe will be worthy in the future and has scholarships to pay her way thru it.....

if you dont get the jist of where i'm going with this.... maybe someone will spell it out for you.

[SoxSon]

Yup, me again.
Please, please, please drop this line of conversation, and get back to baseball. The last eleven straight posts have had nothing to do with the purpose of this forum.


5Lilplayers: Earlier you stated that you had been offered several suggestions for starting a girls' league where you live. Rather than spread that info by pm, it would seem to be a great idea to post some of those ideas here. :)

[NotAboutEgo]

Yup, me again.
Please, please, please drop this line of conversation, and get back to baseball. The last eleven straight posts have had nothing to do with the purpose of this forum.


5Lilplayers: Earlier you stated that you had been offered several suggestions for starting a girls' league where you live. Rather than spread that info by pm, it would seem to be a great idea to post some of those ideas here. :)

Some posts within the last 11 posts do have to do with baseball. Also, some of the topics being talked about relate to baseball (that is how we got to them) because of the context of the topics being talked about. I understand the point of sticking to baseball conversation, but I feel it is important to discuss other topics that relate to it, especially if baseball posts led us in that direction. Just my opinion... will get back to baseball posts. I know we have been straying off the path a bit.

[SoxSon]

Some posts within the last 11 posts do have to do with baseball. Also, some of the topics being talked about relate to baseball (that is how we got to them) because of the context of the topics being talked about. I understand the point of sticking to baseball conversation, but I feel it is important to discuss other topics that relate to it, especially if baseball posts led us in that direction. Just my opinion... will get back to baseball posts. I know we have been straying off the path a bit.

Could be that I counted wrong. :)
Nevertheless, both discussing at length whether kids in general should be pushed to go to college and/or nitpicking and bickering about each other's word choices, while clearly springing from your earlier conversation, really have nothing to do with baseball or the purpose of this forum. The argument that it's within the context of the discussion here doesn't make it ok for BBF. It makes it ok for pm's, but not for the board. Thanks.

[5LilPlayers]

Yup, me again.
Please, please, please drop this line of conversation, and get back to baseball. The last eleven straight posts have had nothing to do with the purpose of this forum.


5Lilplayers: Earlier you stated that you had been offered several suggestions for starting a girls' league where you live. Rather than spread that info by pm, it would seem to be a great idea to post some of those ideas here. :)

I was debating that...wasn't sure if I should start another thread (probably), but since our league isn't really off the ground yet, we can't say for sure "yes, this worked for us" or "been there, tried that, forget it". LOL Plus, different things will work in different regions, of course...so what works for "us" may not work for "you".

Maybe we could make a "starting a league" thread and those in it with me could all post (from us "founders" to coaches and/or players)...kind of a "history of the league" type thing, from beginning to end?

[SoxSon]

I was debating that...wasn't sure if I should start another thread (probably), but since our league isn't really off the ground yet, we can't say for sure "yes, this worked for us" or "been there, tried that, forget it". LOL Plus, different things will work in different regions, of course...so what works for "us" may not work for "you".

Maybe we could make a "starting a league" thread and those in it with me could all post (from us "founders" to coaches and/or players)...kind of a "history of the league" type thing, from beginning to end?

It might very well be a better idea to start a new thread, so that ideas don't become lost in this one. I don't see any reason not to brainstorm ideas, even if you're unsure of their outcomes. Brainstorming ideas about starting a female Little League sounds perfect for a thread in this forum. You'd get different perspectives from all over, I'm sure.

Get cracking! :)

[NotAboutEgo]

It might very well be a better idea to start a new thread, so that ideas don't become lost in this one. I don't see any reason not to brainstorm ideas, even if you're unsure of their outcomes. Brainstorming ideas about starting a female Little League sounds perfect for a thread in this forum. You'd get different perspectives from all over, I'm sure.

Get cracking! :)

I agree that it should go in a new, separate thread. Each topic should have its own thread, otherwise info will just get lost over time.

[NotAboutEgo]

Okay, please Pm me the info. In the meanwhile let me tell you this:

I have an eight year old little girl on my travel baseball team. She is better than pretty much all of the boys. I would love for her to continue playing baseball, but I fear as she gets older other people will be trying to coerce her into softball. Two seasons ago her dad was convinced he needed to put her in softball. I promptly pulled out my LLWS tapes and spliced in some "A League of Thier Own" clips, and proved to him that she could continue on the baseball path for awhile. How should I approach this as I am sure it will happen again?

You could suggest to the parents, like you did with this 8 year old, that there's no eason their daughters shouldn't and can't play baseball. You could read up on all that's happening in women's baseball currently to help support your viewpoint. The more facts you have, the more willing parents would be to seeing your viewpoint, IMO. If all it took to convince the father of the 8 year old to let her play baseball was showing him clips and tapes including "A League of Their Own," then I'd say you have a really good idea of how to convince others. A lot of people (probably most people) feel inclined to follow the status quo and are somewhat afraid to let their children experience things that are "out of the norm." Many of them do need suggestions and info to help them get past that and open their minds a bit to allow thier children to experience and explore their interests. You can also tell them... "the choice is the child's to make and why wouldn't you want to your children to experience as much as they can and what they're interested in... "

There are a lot of links to teams, leagues, orgs, etc. where you can find a bunch of info from around the world. This forum is a great place to find info as well. You can tell parents that girls should be able to choose what they want to play, and if they want to try both baseball and softball and it works out with their families, then give them a shot at trying both. Leave it up to the child what they play based on their interests, talents, etc.

Do a search in Google or wherever for women's baseball and see what you find!

[digglahhh]

Sorry if some of this has been covered, I've only really skimmed the topic.

NAE, you'd be hard pressed to find a regular who has agreed with you more often than myself, but in terms of pure "p"s and "q"s logic, I think you may be off base here. Holding to the side the sociology of the landscape for a minute, you would have to conclude that the organization of the boys only softball division rectifies a bias in favor of the girls. Without it, girls can play either mixed baseball, or all girls softball. The boys too can play mixed baseball, but do not have a softball league of their own. Now, the word "mixed" here is basically hyperbolic, the mixing of the baseball teams is almost completely theoretical. So, I acknowledge that. And I realize that practically speaking, you can't really call the boys a victim of the injustice that a "truth table" would conclude they were.

What if they rectified this by allowing boys to play in mixed softball leagues with the girls? That wouldn't go over so well either.

I do, however, think it is rather likely that the interest level amongst girls would increase if the baseball league was all girls. I don't think too many girls, no matter how good they are, really WANT to be the only girl playing in a baseball league amongst dozens of boys. I think interest would go up if having their own league was an option, how much is anybody's question.

I do think that all-girls baseball should be a goal and an option if that goal can be reached. Sustaining an all-girls league, or individual team that could compete against other leagues' individual teams would be optimal . If that can't be met, arrangements would have to be taken from there.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, and I don't think it is a stretch for me to call them courageous and noble.

[5LilPlayers]

I hope that those with open minds who are reading this (the entire forum for the AAGPBL/Women's Baseball) and are able, will form girls leagues/teams in their own areas. After your league/team is established, you can fill out a form to affiliate with Little League.

I, too, feel that a lot of girls...for whatever reason...just don't want to be "the girl on the team" and that more would play Little League if there was a seperate division for girls.

I just wish we could get enough girls teams/leagues going in every major city...and/or the "smaller big cities"...in every state. I think it'd be great if we could get several teams from around the US to all apply for Little League status at the same time. They are the ones claiming there's not enough interest to start a girls' division. I'd LOVE to know what they're basing that on.

Does anyone know what they've based that statement on? Have they conducted polls - and if so...where??? Are they basing it on the fact of how many girls currenly play on Little League teams? Anyone know where to go to find this information out?

[pitcher23]

I have asked the question before without an answer, but what are the numbers on which LL is basing their response? All I've heard is they say the numbers don't support the creation of a girls division and they don't support that decision with any facts. I have to believe, if in fact any surveys were done, there would be large numbers of surveys filled out and tabulated that would support their decision. I agree that teams/leagues should be created wherever possible and, once established, they contact LL for sanctioning in the LL program. It would be very interesting to see the response and reasoning.

[5LilPlayers]

Emailing Little League...

Communications Director:
Lance Van Auken: LVanauken@littleleague.org

League Development:
Dan Velte: dvelte@littleleague.org
Laurie Williams: lwilliams@littleleague.org

Marketing:
Jud Rogers: jrogers@littleleague.org
Dawn Hall: dhall@littleleague.org

Media Relations:
Christopher D. Downs: cdowns@littleleague.org

I'm writing to them ALL, as soon as I finish checking some other posts, and I am going to ask exactly what they're basing the "not enough girls interested" statement on. HOPEFULLY we'll get some straight answers soon, but for some reason, I highly doubt it.

[NotAboutEgo]

Sorry if some of this has been covered, I've only really skimmed the topic.

NAE, you'd be hard pressed to find a regular who has agreed with you more often than myself, but in terms of pure "p"s and "q"s logic, I think you may be off base here. Holding to the side the sociology of the landscape for a minute, you would have to conclude that the organization of the boys only softball division rectifies a bias in favor of the girls. Without it, girls can play either mixed baseball, or all girls softball. The boys too can play mixed baseball, but do not have a softball league of their own. Now, the word "mixed" here is basically hyperbolic, the mixing of the baseball teams is almost completely theoretical. So, I acknowledge that. And I realize that practically speaking, you can't really call the boys a victim of the injustice that a "truth table" would conclude they were.

What if they rectified this by allowing boys to play in mixed softball leagues with the girls? That wouldn't go over so well either.

I do, however, think it is rather likely that the interest level amongst girls would increase if the baseball league was all girls. I don't think too many girls, no matter how good they are, really WANT to be the only girl playing in a baseball league amongst dozens of boys. I think interest would go up if having their own league was an option, how much is anybody's question.

I do think that all-girls baseball should be a goal and an option if that goal can be reached. Sustaining an all-girls league, or individual team that could compete against other leagues' individual teams would be optimal . If that can't be met, arrangements would have to be taken from there.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, and I don't think it is a stretch for me to call them courageous and noble.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. I am for girls having their own leagues, based on things such as you stated... "I do, however, think it is rather likely that the interest level amongst girls would increase if the baseball league was all girls. I don't think too many girls, no matter how good they are, really WANT to be the only girl playing in a baseball league amongst dozens of boys. I think interest would go up if having their own league was an option..."

It doesn't hurt to propose to someone to allow their daughters to play baseball and to raise them thinking they can only do certain things that have been deemed for girls only. I agree that interest level would go up if girls have their own leagues. Many of us on here have been saying that all along. But, if a girl wants to play baseball, even with boys, and if their parents are agonst it, then perhaps the parents can change their minds.

[digglahhh]

NAE,

I'll try to reiterate my point, though the discussion seems to have moved past it.

In the eyes of Little League, that all-boys softball division rectifies a bias, not creates one.

The established leagues were mixed baseball and girls softball. By pure logic, the missing league is boys softball. As currently constituted the boys were victims, they could only play baseball, and were not guantanteed to play with their own gender. The girls on the other hand, could play mixed baseball, like the boys could, or play girls softball, exclusively with members of their own sex.

Now, you won't get an argument from me that the "mixed" baseball is anything more than theoretical. To call Little League baseball gender mixed would be like calling the late 40's AL racially intergrated. Ostencibly, mixed baseball is BOYS baseball, with an occassional smattering of girls.

However, those who don't see your view always have this "objective" logic to fall back on. They can look at the fact that baseball is "mixed" and softball is exclusively girls as evidence that the bias exists in FAVOR of girls, that they get the best of both worlds. So they can always point to the "facts" and accuse you of being the one with an "agenda."

As currently constituted, interest in baseball amongst girls is set up to fail, and then attitudes derived from that paradigm, not surprsingly, are used to reiforce the oringal assumptions behind it. "Conspiracy theorists" call this model, "problem, reaction, solution." The mindset is that there shouldn't be interest in girls about baseball. So they set up the circumstances to descourage that interest, then use the lack of interest to validate their original assumption, but it was a self fulfilling prophecy the whole time.

[5LilPlayers]

I am SO mad right now I could spit!

I've been doing more research for the girls' league we're starting (looking up girls and women in baseball) and happened to run across a VERY interesting article, which says, in part:

"...Little League estimates the number of girls currently participating in Little League Baseball programs to be about 100,000..."

And that was from an article written in 2003...don't know the numbers now, but I can't imagine that in only 3 years, 99,000 - 99,500 dropped out.

This is taken from an article ON littleleague.org!

Read the full article here: www.littleleague.org/media/30thgirls.asp

"500 - 1000 boys wanting to play softball" is enough to create a seperate boys' softball league.

Yet 100,000 little girls (JUST in the Little League Organization itself) is NOT enough to create a seperate girls' baseball league????

True that the boys who want to play softball can't play if there aren't enough boys in their area. Then they're forced to play baseball. So why couldn't the "reverse" work for the girls?? If there's not enough girls in one area for a team, no girls baseball there, but they could either join a Little League softball team or play LL baseball with the boys.

Even with all the age groups combined (they never said how many of those "500 - 1000" boys were in which age groups, either)...even with those girls spread out between the age groups, that's still 100 - 200 TIMES as many girls who were currently playing baseball for Little League in 2003 vs. how many boys wanted to play Little League softball in 2000.

How can ANYONE claim this as "fair treatment" of the genders? :confused: :eek: :( :mad: :evil :grouchy

**Still in shock that LL would actually post this information on their own site** Whose brilliant idea was it to say "Yeah, no matter what we claim in our nice little rule books and all, let's show the world how biased we really are. Maybe people won't find it."?? LOL

[digglahhh]

Well, I've been trying to explain how one could claim that this is fair treatment. In the most dry and detached sense, they would be right too.

Practically speaking though, you are 100% right.

I read a study on poverty once that was conducted by the notorious neo-con think tank, The Heritage Foundation. It's focus was an attempt to prove that poverty in America is overstated and that our pubilic assistance is, if anything, too generous. One of the "facts" they used was the disproportionate obesity rate of the allegedly poor. They were incinuating that truly poor people don't become overweight. This is an example of people using "facts" in a disingenious manner, purposely devoid of context and with manipulative intent.

The argument that the boys softball division rectifies a bias against boys is a similar manipulation of reality under the guise of simple logic.

I would advise that you expend minimal energy on denouncing the boys softball and maximum energy on organizing girls baseball. Especially because the supporters of boys softball and opponents of girls baseball always have "logic" to fall back on.

[5LilPlayers]

Already written to the local Little League officials asking for a girls league...plus I'm working with others on creating a girls league, too. But it still sucks that at least 100 times as many girls already play baseball with LL and that's not enough to start a girls baseball division, but that handfull of boys get their softball division.

[NotAboutEgo]

NAE,

I'll try to reiterate my point, though the discussion seems to have moved past it.

In the eyes of Little League, that all-boys softball division rectifies a bias, not creates one.

The established leagues were mixed baseball and girls softball. By pure logic, the missing league is boys softball. As currently constituted the boys were victims, they could only play baseball, and were not guantanteed to play with their own gender. The girls on the other hand, could play mixed baseball, like the boys could, or play girls softball, exclusively with members of their own sex.

Now, you won't get an argument from me that the "mixed" baseball is anything more than theoretical. To call Little League baseball gender mixed would be like calling the late 40's AL racially intergrated. Ostencibly, mixed baseball is BOYS baseball, with an occassional smattering of girls.

However, those who don't see your view always have this "objective" logic to fall back on. They can look at the fact that baseball is "mixed" and softball is exclusively girls as evidence that the bias exists in FAVOR of girls, that they get the best of both worlds. So they can always point to the "facts" and accuse you of being the one with an "agenda."

As currently constituted, interest in baseball amongst girls is set up to fail, and then attitudes derived from that paradigm, not surprsingly, are used to reiforce the oringal assumptions behind it. "Conspiracy theorists" call this model, "problem, reaction, solution." The mindset is that there shouldn't be interest in girls about baseball. So they set up the circumstances to descourage that interest, then use the lack of interest to validate their original assumption, but it was a self fulfilling prophecy the whole time.


Ahhhh... I see. Thanks for the clarification... and, I agree with everything you've said. It's interesting to see that 5LP has found a page on LL web site stating that there are (or were in 2003) over 100,000 girls across the U.S. playing baseball in LL's "coed" baseball league. Perhaps that article needs to be seen more.

[NotAboutEgo]

Well, I would advise that you expend minimal energy on denouncing the boys softball and maximum energy on organizing girls baseball. Especially because the supporters of boys softball and opponents of girls baseball always have "logic" to fall back on.

I agree with that. We aren't against boys having their own softball leagues and aren't against boys playing softball with girls if their are no teams or leagues in their areas, but of course, the sensible on here already know that.

We will move forward...