Mike Marshall's Pitching Motion [Archive]

Jake Patterson

01-01-2002, 02:31 AM

Hey DDogg...
Been in and out for the holidays so I haven't been posting much. Didn't want you to think that I missed your post.

I have looked into what he is teaching and cannot say with any certainty what he teaches will be successful. Coach45 has more experience with him and has his son training with Marshall's methods so I will defer any first-hand account to him. I have found some things in my quest and will post them tomorrow when I get a chance. Just got in...

DDog, To follow up with the above...

I have spent considerable time speaking with professional sports physical therapists concerning the above, mostly from a youth perspective. What I have in my book is traditional and at best - inadequate. Here's what I have found or now understand.

1. Traditional methods will always damage arms. It's just a matter of time.

2. Pitchers who have a long professional career are either freaks of nature or specialists, examples are Randy Johnson and Tim Wakefield. If 1:16,000 HS players become pros then the number of HS players who pitch into their 40's professionally is probably more like 1:750,000. (The actual could be easily determined, but it would take some time.)

3. Many consider Marshall a little bizarre, I don't... I think he is on to something but has not developed the methods to sell his new approach and his approach needs to be tweaked in order for him to mainstream his method. I cannot speak for C45, but I believe he has taken this approach. I have seen mini-C45, -using that term (mini)very loosly (Via clip) and he is the real thing. I usually go to the Zhills area during spring training and intend to visit Marshall.

4. The pitching methods used by professional pitchers is the result of an evolutionary process that that has maximized the human body's limitations. There have been arguments made that posit the reason we cannot break that 100mph barrier easily is because we have reached the body's limitations using current methods.

5. Every PT I speak with agrees with his overall premise, that current methods will damage arms.

6. Restricted or managed use are currently the best ways to prevent injury followed by training as we now understand it.

7. Most youth coaches have little clue about pitching instruction and tend to abuse their better pitchers forcing organizations like the Little League to regulate pitching use.

8. Marshallites like Kharma have done more to damage MM than they have helped.

If you want to gain a better first hand opinion about MM I would suggest you PM C45.

Hope this helps
Jake

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 10:20 AM

Does anyone have a video clip that they can send me on his pitching motion....I'm curious to see what it looks like.

MrSurprise

08-09-2006, 01:18 PM

if no one has one, one of my best friends is going to be attending his 2nd full year camp there this coming september, his dad tapes him all the time and I have faced him many times... I will see if I can get some of his footage.
PeAcE!
kP

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 05:58 PM

Thats great, I would really like to see it. I don't know why he has so many haters out there. Take Care.

Jake Patterson

08-09-2006, 06:54 PM

Thats great, I would really like to see it. I don't know why he has so many haters out there. Take Care.

Louis,
I have found that while his research and intent are sound his teaching methods are unorthodox and go against what many traditionalist are teaching. He has also had limited success at the college and pro level. I have had his DVD reviewed by physical therapists who liked his work, but are put off by how he teaches certain aspects of pitching. In all fairness to MM I have never had the opportunity to discuss his findings and methods with him personally, although I am committed to going to his facility during my next trip to FLA. What I do agree with is arm damage in youth baseball is growing. Go to ASMI and read there articles and findings.

He offers much of his work for free on line.

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 07:24 PM

Louis,
I have found that while his research and intent are sound his teaching methods are unorthodox and go against what many traditionalist are teaching. He has also had limited success at the college and pro level. I have had his DVD reviewed by physical therapists who liked his work, but are put off by how he teaches certain aspects of pitching. In all fairness to MM I have never had the opportunity to discuss his findings and methods with him personally, although I am committed to going to his facility during my next trip to FLA. What I do agree with is arm damage in youth baseball is growing. Go to ASMI and read there articles and findings.

He offers much of his work for free on line.

Hi, He has had limited success as a head coach or his pitcher's have had limited success pitching? Its hard to argue with a doctor, so many professionals have arm problems. So many pitcher's have had to have Tommy John Surgery it makes me wonder if the traditional style of pitching is flawed. I've been reading a lot on this subject of the Marshall style vs. Traditional styles and the same argument from the tradtionalist side use "look at the history of all the good pitchers approach". Just because thats the way its been done for the past 100 years does not mean its the absolute best way. Im not trying to start up an argument on this, I'm just trying to see the motion and try to make my own assumptions. As a kid, my parents would not let me pitch competitively because they had heard how it could ruin kids arms. I agree that kids should not pitch until their arm is mature, just my humble opinion. I started getting interested in learning to pitch a couple years ago, I have a strong arm and can throw hard, but I do not want to suffer an injury because as some of know how fragile we get as we start getting older. Take Care, and I am eager to hear your response on this issue.

Jake Patterson

08-09-2006, 07:39 PM

Hi, He has had limited success as a head coach or his pitcher's have had limited success pitching? He has not had that many successful pitchers at the college and pro ranks. This does not necessarily mean his methods are flawed. Its hard to argue with a doctor, so many professionals have arm problems. So many pitcher's have had to have Tommy John Surgery it makes me wonder if the traditional style of pitching is flawed. It is... The human body is not designed for throwing a ball hard the way we traditionally throw. This is why few can do it well and why we have a hard time breaking the 100mph mark. I've been reading a lot on this subject of the Marshall style vs. Traditional styles and the same argument from the tradtionalist side use "look at the history of all the good pitchers approach". Just because thats the way its been done for the past 100 years does not mean its the absolute best way. Im not trying to start up an argument on this, I'm just trying to see the motion and try to make my own assumptions. As a kid, my parents would not let me pitch competitively because they had heard how it could ruin kids arms. I agree that kids should not pitch until their arm is mature, just my humble opinion. I started getting interested in learning to pitch a couple years ago, I have a strong arm and can throw hard, but I do not want to suffer an injury because as some of know how fragile we get as we start getting older. Take Care, and I am eager to hear your response on this issue.It sounds like you are doing the most important thing you can do for yourself - Educating yourself.

The only other advice I'll give you is don't get too tied up in the title Doctor. Credentialling and speciality has to be considered.

pgibbons

08-09-2006, 08:04 PM

I'm currently experimenting with Marshall's techniques as well as some other traditional pitching techniques - trying to find the truth for myself.

I've got his DVD. From what I can tell, his pitching motion has evolved over the years. When he pitched well enough to win a Cy Young award back in the early 70's, his motion looked very similar to that of any other pitcher. A casual observer could not see what he was doing that was "different".

His pitching motion now looks radically different from what he, or is student Jeff Sparks, used in the majors. It's now reminicient of a javelin thrower (not exact, but similar).

If someone could tell me if it's possible, (and also how) to rip video clips from a DVD, I would do it and post it so all could see(as long as Marshall is willing to give his permission re. copyright)

Also, I have no stake in the religious war that always follows Marshall postings. I don't know who is right or wrong.

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 09:49 PM

Im not sure how to rip it from a DVD to a clip, and as for copyright laws I dont think you need his permission as you are not trying to make money off it and you have paid for the DVD...its not any different than me buying a Movie DVD and both of us watch the movie....But I understand that its a matter of respect to get permission. Take Care...

Mark H

08-09-2006, 10:03 PM

As long as everyone understands he thinks all MLB pitchers do it wrong and understands that he has not proved his theories with successful pitchers, I have no heartburn with anyone making an informed decision. I should add many will argue the second point but statistical and video evidence seems difficult to find. Then there are his thoughts on hitting. ;)

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 10:29 PM

Hi Mark H,

I am neither Pro-Marshall or Pro-Traditional, Im just trying to educate myself. Marshall continues to state that the Traditonal Pitching style is flawed...... how do you explain all the arm and shoulder problems that pitchers have had over the years? Rotator cuff injuries, UCL ruptures, Bone chips in the elbow, and Tommy John surgeries are all a direct result of the traditonal pitching motion. I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance. Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance. I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

MrSurprise

08-09-2006, 10:32 PM

Here is what I have found out catching my best friend for the 5 years he has been doing this... I think he has attended 2 6 week camps and 1 full year camp with mike marshall... like he lived at his house and threw everyday... This friend of mine has some nassstyyyyy pitches, too many to name and they all eventually worked good... He also was able to throw 3 straight days more than 100 pitches each day without any hurt other than just like normal muscle soreness, no actual elbow or shoulder trouble. He is able to throw curveball after curveball, in high school we had a time when he threw 9 curves in a row because that was the only pitch he could get for a strike and he had no arm problems... another thing he was telling me is that at the camp there is one guy throwing in the 100 mphs... but the biggest flaws that I have noticed are as follows:
1. Really has trouble controlling any pitch... can't hit spots for anything and I think that is what keeps this from getting in the higher levels because he has so many wild pitches and missed pitches that any disciplined hitter can hold back and get a walk or hold back and rip a miss pitch...
2. At times he has to change release point to get his curve to work. What I mean by this is that for a fast ball he lets his arm come over the top more while his curve he is really big on throwing his elbow out and so any good hitter picks up on that...
3. The last big thing that really is killing him is his fast ball is straight... it's hard but it's one of those fast balls that if you get your barrell on it it's going to be a great hit... and I think this is just his problem because he has like 3 different fastballs or something and 2 of them move like crazy but when he just goes straight fast ball it's a nice straight fast ball that big hitters love...

This is just my opinion and me watching him while catching him... His dad is really into this motion and is all about getting him to pitch this way, and also this kid is a real hard headed kid that if he is going to do something he is going to go all out and won't listen to anyone else that thinks he is doing it wrong... i know the perfect kid for the job haha... so he has had alot of dedication to get to what he has gotten but like my summer league team that had only jr. college and d3 players on it went 1-1 against him and the time he beat us he killed us and shut us out with 12 strikeouts, but when we beat him we scored 8 runs off him in 3 innings of work, when he is on he is on and off he is off... he is only 20 and has another year of camp ahead of him we will see
PeAcE!
kP
I will try to get some film of him...

LousivilleSlugger

08-09-2006, 10:59 PM

Thanks for the info, btw, How hard is your friend throwing? 90's?

Mark H

08-09-2006, 11:02 PM

Rotator cuff injuries, UCL ruptures, Bone chips in the elbow, and Tommy John surgeries are all a direct result of the traditonal pitching motion.

Or they are an occupational hazard or they are the result of overuse or poor genetics etc.

I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance.

Ha! If he could get hitters out and was available Saddam Hussein could get signed. Everyone is out to get me is more often an excuse for personal failure in MANY walks of life.

Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance.?

Submarine pitchers have been known to get high level hitters out.

I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

Nope and if you have video of a successful high level pitcher using his motion I'd love to see it here on the net for everyone to review.

MrSurprise

08-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Thanks for the info, btw, How hard is your friend throwing? 90's?
It depends on the day... he has prolly topped out at 91 or so but I would say average 87 with a 73 mph curve, and then a 82 or so screwball... that is another thing his pitches all have so much difference in velocity that they are easier to pick up and get used to but that I believe is what this next camp is. He is going to work location, pitch choice, and learn like how to set up pitches for other pitches...
PeAcE!
kP

Jake Patterson

08-10-2006, 07:47 AM

Jake Patterson

08-10-2006, 07:54 AM

I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance. Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance. I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

The difference is Submariners have been around since the early days of the game. Marshall's methods are new.

MrSurprise

08-10-2006, 11:36 AM

LousivilleSlugger

08-10-2006, 02:30 PM

I don't know much about that Mr.Suprise. I will talk to my brother, he designs web pages and is a digital freak. I'm sure there is a way to do it.

Louisvilleslugger

WonderMonkey

08-10-2006, 02:36 PM

I talked to my friend he said he has his high speed film of him pitching at camp. But the problem is that he has it on video tape... how do I get that off there and on here ? :) haha ! thanks!
PeAcE!
kP

Some video recorders have a way to play the tape and output to computer via Firewire, etc. Since you said it was "high speed film" I suspect it is a digital tape. Even if not some magnetic tape can stream out and be captured by a PC or MAC.

If the recorder itself doesn't have a way to export or stream you have to use a special device to transfer.

Hawaii

08-12-2006, 01:39 PM

Because I had bought a prior MM DVD, I recently received another DVD from MM, unsolicited. It was free, although he did ask for a donation.
The more recent DVD has film of MM throwing, including an overhead view, which is always interesting, no matter who is throwing. If you want the DVD, PM me with your address and I will send it to you (assuming you'll send it back). :)

DodgerJon

08-21-2006, 05:34 PM

Here are some clips of Mike Marshall's video's which show his pitching motion, X-Rays of Youth Baseball Pitchers, and wrist weight drills. I found this on Dr. Marshall's own website from question # 827 of his 2006 Q&A's. Enjoy, and let me know what you think!!

1. www.lishosting.com/main1.asx
2. www.lishosting.com/main2.asx
3. www.lishosting.com/xrays.asx
4. www.lishosting.com/wweight1.asx
5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

Jake Patterson

08-21-2006, 05:53 PM

5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

This is similar to a clip I showed several certified physical therapists. They had a very difficult time understanding the benefits and felt the exercise would severly damage the arm. I will have to set some time aside to sit with them to better understand their objections.

Maxx

12-02-2006, 01:44 PM

I've scanned some prior posts on Marshall and his techniques, primarily this thread:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=35798&highlight=marshall

What I'm looking for is video clips of his methods or info from someone who has been to any of camps. I clicked on the video links above, but they do not seem to be working.....

I'm having a very difficult time accepting some of his training methods, specifically the use of 10-12 pound iron balls and 30 pound wrist weights that are used while simulating the pitching motion.

Jake, did you ever look any deeper into Marshall's methods?

Mark H

12-02-2006, 04:39 PM

I've been asking for years for a video of anyone throwing 90+ using a non-whipping Marshall arm action. Offered a $100 bucks for the provider's favorite charity. Still nada even though the method reportedly offers superior velocity, movement, control and endurance along with a lack of injuries. The lack of injuries part, I'm willing to believe.

Maxx

12-02-2006, 04:59 PM

I've asked for documentation and/or research supporting Marshall's methods from a certain person but have gotten nothing other than Marshall's own thoughts and beliefs. All I'm asking for is even a little bit of evidence that his training philosophies have some credibility. But no one has been able to provide anything other than long-winded replies.

Jake Patterson

12-02-2006, 09:08 PM

Jake, did you ever look any deeper into Marshall's methods?

Hey DDogg...
Been in and out for the holidays so I haven't been posting much. Didn't want you to think that I missed your post.

I have looked into what he is teaching and cannot say with any certainty what he teaches will be successful. Coach45 has more experience with him and has his son training with Marshall's methods so I will defer any first-hand account to him. I have found some things in my quest and will post them tomorrow when I get a chance. Just got in...

Baseball gLove

12-02-2006, 11:59 PM

kylebee

12-03-2006, 01:46 AM

I just want to see a clip of a pitcher using Marshall's mechanics.

VTSoxFan

12-04-2006, 06:55 PM

bumping thread back to the present day

Jake Patterson

12-04-2006, 07:41 PM

DDog, To follow up with the above...

I have spent considerable time speaking with professional sports physical therapists concerning the above, mostly from a youth perspective. What I have in my book is traditional and at best - inadequate. Here's what I have found or now understand.

1. Traditional methods will always damage arms. It's just a matter of time.

2. Pitchers who have a long professional career are either freaks of nature or specialists, examples are Randy Johnson and Tim Wakefield. If 1:16,000 HS players become pros then the number of HS players who pitch into their 40's professionally is probably more like 1:750,000. (The actual could be easily determined, but it would take some time.)

3. Many consider Marshall a little bizarre, I don't... I think he is on to something but has not developed the methods to sell his new approach and his approach needs to be tweaked in order for him to mainstream his method. I cannot speak for C45, but I believe he has taken this approach. I have seen mini-C45, -using that term (mini)very loosly (Via clip) and he is the real thing. I usually go to the Zhills area during spring training and intend to visit Marshall.

4. The pitching methods used by professional pitchers is the result of an evolutionary process that that has maximized the human body's limitations. There have been arguments made that posit the reason we cannot break that 100mph barrier easily is because we have reached the body's limitations using current methods.

5. Every PT I speak with agrees with his overall premise, that current methods will damage arms.

6. Restricted or managed use are currently the best ways to prevent injury followed by training as we now understand it.

7. Most youth coaches have little clue about pitching instruction and tend to abuse their better pitchers forcing organizations like the Little League to regulate pitching use.

8. Marshallites like Kharma have done more to damage MM than they have helped.

If you want to gain a better first hand opinion about MM I would suggest you PM C45.

Hope this helps
Jake

Hi all,
Long story-short, computer glitch bumped the thread it should be back.
Thanks VT Sox Fan!

Maxx

12-04-2006, 08:29 PM

I understand that Coach 45 has tweaked and adapted Marshall's mechanics to get his son more velocity. He received the wrath from a Marshall follower for his revelation. I hope Coach 45 can show a clip of his son pitching in a college game.

I wonder who the follower was who unleashed the wrath???......

I am corresponding with Coach45 to find out a little more--hopefully I'll have more success than I have with a previous Marshall "fanatic." No offense to you Coach45....

Thanks for the info Jake!!

Ursa Major

12-06-2006, 02:11 AM

Coach45 sent me a CD of his son throwing a curve about a year ago, and it's pretty amazing. About 20+ revolutions on the way to the plate. And, he insists that his son has done the weight throwing thing without injury. The hips remain relatively open throughout the motion, which may explain why maximizing speed may pose a problem.

I think part of the problem for Marshall is a chicken/egg thing. Until he gets cranks out a high-profile, successful pitcher, no really blue chip pitcher is going to take a chance on him. So, he ends up with kids who are less likely to make it and are looking for a miracle. Not surprisingly, few if any break through.

Marshall seems to think that his pitchers are somehow blacklisted. I think there may be something to the fact that teams are loathe to hire pitchers whom they won't be able to coach.

Jake Patterson

12-06-2006, 08:52 AM

I think there may be something to the fact that teams are loathe to hire pitchers whom they won't be able to coach.

This seems to be especially true with baseball coaches.

Coach45

12-06-2006, 09:34 AM

For a variety of reasons there are many in professional baseball who do not care for Dr. Marshall. I know him personally and like the man very much, and at the same time I believe the message gets blurred by the messenger.

On a personal note, this summer my son threw in a tryout at a top Florida D1 school. After retiring the three D1 hitters allotted, on nine pitches, he was told "we're not interested in how you throw." I won't speculate on the coaches' specific reasoning, but it's fair to say that people are resistant to change.

With a couple of very short-term exceptions he has now thrown daily for over two and one-half years.

dougmac

12-06-2006, 10:07 AM

I would be very interested in watching a Marshall taught youngster throw. I watched him pitch and have also seen film of him pitching and did not notice anything that I would consider different or eye catching. He was a fine pitcher with a real good screwball.

I have heard many stories about Marshall taught pitchers being turned down and turned away from Colleges and pro ball, but since nobody ever posts a clip of a young man pitching, who knows what they look like or what they can do?

Post some clips.......anything else is just conversation.

Coach45

12-06-2006, 11:23 AM

dougmac

12-06-2006, 02:16 PM

Just sent you a PM.

Baseball gLove

12-06-2006, 03:23 PM

Doug,

If you will send me a PM with your mailing info I will send a CD with some of these clips. I'm not interested in posting these clips for public consumption, whether folks like it or not. All I ask is that you keep it off the web and don't otherwise disseminate copies. My son will be home over Christmas and I'd be happy to send more current clips then, if you'd rather wait.

Coach45

Why do you not want to publicize your son? He is 19 or 20? Right? If he is the real deal, a clip of him in action in a real game on YouTube would do more for his career than handing out your DVD's.

Maxx

12-06-2006, 03:55 PM

Why do you not want to publicize your son? He is 19 or 20? Right? If he is the real deal, a clip of him in action in a real game on YouTube would do more for his career than handing out your DVD's.

In my opinion, I think he is more concerned about people ostracizing his son because he is training with Marshall.......

I mean, it's not like that kind of stuff ever happens here on baseball-fever.......:ughh

Coach45

12-06-2006, 04:12 PM

Why do you not want to publicize your son? He is 19 or 20? Right? If he is the real deal, a clip of him in action in a real game on YouTube would do more for his career than handing out your DVD's.

Hey BL,

My son was previously drafted and he didn't get to that point on YouTube. If and when the time is right publicity will take care of itself from the mound. Pretty simply, there are valid privacy concerns and I'm not interested in posting clips publicly. The process of unlearning a complex skill and replacing it with another is very, very difficult. Until I'm comfortable my son is throwing EXACTLY the way he needs to I don't really want folks commenting on what they think is right or wrong mechanically. Reasons end up looking like excuses and I won't make excuses. One on one I can handle those questions but in a public forum it's nigh onto impossible.

Coach45

12-06-2006, 04:21 PM

Just sent you a PM.

You should have a reply.

For grins, let me pose a scenario. Assume a pitcher with major league talent can COMMAND the following pitches: two different fastballs, at fastball velos, that can break sharply, horizontally, into OR away from a hitter; true sinker and slider that have late bite at -10; breaking ball that can move either straight down or down and away with late bite at -20, plus a reverse breaking ball that moves down and in at -20. How well do you think they could compete?

Baseball gLove

12-06-2006, 04:44 PM

Hey BL,

My son was previously drafted and he didn't get to that point on YouTube. If and when the time is right publicity will take care of itself from the mound. Pretty simply, there are valid privacy concerns and I'm not interested in posting clips publicly. The process of unlearning a complex skill and replacing it with another is very, very difficult. Until I'm comfortable my son is throwing EXACTLY the way he needs to I don't really want folks commenting on what they think is right or wrong mechanically. Reasons end up looking like excuses and I won't make excuses. One on one I can handle those questions but in a public forum it's nigh onto impossible.

Great answer and your reasons are quite valid.

kylebee

12-06-2006, 05:01 PM

dougmac

12-06-2006, 06:56 PM

You should have a reply.

For grins, let me pose a scenario. Assume a pitcher with major league talent can COMMAND the following pitches: two different fastballs, at fastball velos, that can break sharply, horizontally, into OR away from a hitter; true sinker and slider that have late bite at -10; breaking ball that can move either straight down or down and away with late bite at -20, plus a reverse breaking ball that moves down and in at -20. How well do you think they could compete?

If he can get good hitters out, throw strikes and has good stuff, I am always interested.

JJA

12-07-2006, 11:33 AM

My only problem with the Marshall guys is that they are always in the learning mode. For the past several years I have continually heard that no one wants to post a clip until they are done learning. That's OK, but since I have yet to see a single Marshall student clip over the past 5 years I really wonder what is going on. He's been doing this for 20+ years, so there should be gobs of guys out there who have learned his methods, but I have yet to see a clip of anyone.

Although I'm sure there is some bias on the part of MLB towards guys with standard mechanics, with the shortage of pitching everywhere, I just don't buy it that the Marshall students can't get an honest look from pro scouts. At the very least, his students should be able to play college ball somewhere to show their stuff. If they're getting guys out, someone will take a chance on them even if they're shooting balls out of their belly button. Lots of submariners and knuckleballers have made the majors, so this shows MLB will make allowances for anyone who can get outs.

-JJA

Baseball gLove

12-07-2006, 03:23 PM

Coach 45 is retooling his son's pitching to regain his velocity. I'm just guessing, but I think he will be retaining the best of Marshall's arm work with some traditional foot work.

Coach45

12-08-2006, 01:03 PM

Coach 45 is retooling his son's pitching to regain his velocity. I'm just guessing, but I think he will be retaining the best of Marshall's arm work with some traditional foot work.
BL,

I'm not retooling my son. He is continuing to train, working out one very specific kink in his delivery, relating to how he uses his arm. The process is arduous. Over the summer he experimented with some different footwork and the results appeared encouraging from a velocity standpoint, but until he is strong enough to correct the specific arm flaw the footwork issue is largely irrelevant.

My only problem with the Marshall guys is that they are always in the learning mode. For the past several years I have continually heard that no one wants to post a clip until they are done learning. That's OK, but since I have yet to see a single Marshall student clip over the past 5 years I really wonder what is going on. He's been doing this for 20+ years, so there should be gobs of guys out there who have learned his methods, but I have yet to see a clip of anyone.

There's a huge difference between learning and experimentation. Specifically we're talking about the difference between someone who can pitch youth baseball and someone who has the potential to be a highly skilled professional caliber athlete. There are still unknowns in this process, in part because so few higher level players have trained with him for any extended length of time. I certainly look at what my son is doing as pioneering. Acquiring a completely new skill as complex as pitching, to replace one where you are highly skilled, is daunting. Sometimes pitchers struggle for years simply to learn one new pitch release. We're talking about six completely different pitches, with divergent releases, along with an entirely different mechanic, and building tremendous specific strength necessary to accomplish this at a high level.

Many from this board have seen clips I've sent to them. I've spent more than $1000 on postage...my dime...to do so. My son has been training with Marshall for 2 1/2 years (not 5) and is one of a very small handful who have continued beyond a 280-day entry-level program. Objectively, most try to pitch competitively before they're competent, get discouraged and quit. Aside from pro players Marshall has rehabbed I'm not aware of another pro prospect he's trained, as is the case with my son. And no, there are very few guys who've learned his methods, let alone continue to train over the long haul. So I disagree with your assessment.

pgibbons

12-09-2006, 04:59 PM

Good to see you back Coach. I'm interested in any new videos you take of your son over Christmas break to see how his skills have evolved. But this time let me reimburse you for your time and materials.

Wishing you the best.

Jake Patterson

12-09-2006, 06:19 PM

ssarge

12-10-2006, 12:50 AM

Although I'm sure there is some bias on the part of MLB towards guys with standard mechanics, with the shortage of pitching everywhere, I just don't buy it that the Marshall students can't get an honest look from pro scouts. At the very least, his students should be able to play college ball somewhere to show their stuff. If they're getting guys out, someone will take a chance on them even if they're shooting balls out of their belly button. Lots of submariners and knuckleballers have made the majors, so this shows MLB will make allowances for anyone who can get outs.

Agreed. on all fronts.

To say that baseball is not progressive as it considers the unusual shouldn't raise an eyebrow.

That said, if Chad Bradford can get an MLB gig, it ould seem that someone will take a chance on any guy with talent who can retire MLB hitters.

I am hugely skeptical that the reason there are no Marshall students in pro ball is because of bias.

Regards,

Scott