The Shift on LH batters, including some of its history

[Mattingly]

I've always wanted to know how long this thing's been around. Longer than expected. Sooner or later, LH hitters will just smack one down the LF line and end the creativity.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/07/sports/0808-spt-WEBshift.jpg

Countering a Slugger by Stacking the Defense (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/sports/baseball/08shift.html?ref=baseball)
David Ortiz has become weary of seeing players clogging the right side of the field as if he had been marooned inside a hyperactive video game. Every time Ortiz glances to the right, there has been another member of the Toronto Blue Jays or the Tampa Bay Devil Rays or some other team seemingly sneaking out from behind a blade of grass to catch a ball that he has scorched.

So Ortiz, the powerful designated hitter for the Boston Red Sox, has decided to fight the exaggerated defensive shift by occasionally bunting. He did it Saturday night, bunting for a single down the third-base line against the Devil Rays. Ortiz also bunted for a hit against Toronto in April, which left the Blue Jays smiling since they considered it a relatively harmless jab from a heavyweight and a victory for their defense.

“After Ortiz bunted, we said, ‘Thank you very much,’ ” said John Gibbons, Toronto’s manager. “That’s another ball that he didn’t lose out of the park.”

Ortiz and other left-handed sluggers like the Yankees’ Jason Giambi, the Mets’ Carlos Delgado, the Giants’ Barry Bonds and the White Sox’ Jim Thome routinely face defenses that increasingly overload the right side of the field because of their propensity to pull the ball.

As soon as those feared hitters go to the plate, the second baseman usually retreats to shallow right field, the shortstop slides to where the second baseman was stationed and the third baseman moves to short. The center fielder may shade to the right, and the right fielder could pinch toward the foul line, too.

[Imapotato]

I wanna know why RH pull hitters, like Jason Bay or Jeff Kent don't get the shift to the left side

That always made me wonder

[Mattingly]

I wanna know why RH pull hitters, like Jason Bay or Jeff Kent don't get the shift to the left side

That always made me wonder
Someone told me awhile back that you can't do the reverse shift, since nobody would be able to cover 1B except the pitcher.

Also, a stolen 2B means the shift won't work anymore, since the 2B runner could then easily go to 3B.

That's how Jeter got his shoulder separated awhile back (2002 or 03). Toronto had the "shift" on Giambi, so Jeter stole 2B. With nobody covering 3B, the catcher, Ken Huckaby (who was wearing a motorcycle style helmet), raced to 3B and slammed into Jeter's right shoulder, separating it.

[DoWnWiThTheSiCkNeSs]

i just wonder why in late game situations when the team needs runners , why cant the leftys just push down a bunt like Papi has doen a couple times . no one will throw em out . if they are supposed to be great hitters why cant they push a bunt

[west coast orange and black]

a look at a shift deployed against bonds.
14 june 2002, i believe. :lookitup :rolleyes:

[Francoeurstein]

Wow!!!! 3rd playing up the middle and the outfielders all in right!!!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

a look at a shift deployed against bonds.
14 june 2002, i believe. :lookitup :rolleyes:

Now if he could just learn to place hit :rolleyes:

[west coast orange and black]

it took ya nearly half an hour to come up with that one, sultan.
yer slippin'. what gives?

[Solair Wright]

They had to play Reggie Jackson and the current Yankees hitting coach with certain shifts to avoid them trying to obtain base hits. Jackson I don't know about his shifts, but once when Don Mattingly was batting, they tried to cover "the gap" and play deep in the OF. It ended up covering themselves when he hit a homer. It's a not very bright idea to defeat players who have an unfair advantage against other teams' pitching.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The Bonds shift makes no sense to me. Bonds always had tremendous power to left center field and center field.

[RuthMayBond]

It was supposedly used against Cy Williams and Ken Williams in 1922.
Hornsby supposedly used it vs. Averill & Trosky on 4/17/1934
Dykes supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/23/1941
Boudreau supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/14/1946
Ted Williams supposedly hit a pennant clinching drive against it on 9/13/1946

[Brooklyn]

Countering a Slugger by Stacking the Defense (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/sports/baseball/08shift.html?ref=baseball)

“After Ortiz bunted, we said, ‘Thank you very much,’ ” said John Gibbons, Toronto’s manager. “That’s another ball that he didn’t lose out of the park.”

This quote makes no sense. If they are truly "happy" with him getting a measly single, they'd just walk him and avoid any drama.

[RuthMayBond]

a look at a shift deployed against bonds.
14 june 2002, i believe. :lookitup :rolleyes:You gonna reel 'em in Tony, or let 'em struggle for a while? ;)

[Mattingly]

This quote makes no sense. If they are truly "happy" with him getting a measly single, they'd just walk him and avoid any drama.
I'm wondering how the pitcher pitches when the shift is employed. Is there a certain style of pitching that will insure that a LH batter will hit to RF? Or do they just hit there anyway.

I'll agree that they shouldn't be so happy. In fact, that someone can even single with all those guys around the right side of the infield (and outfield) is beyond me. Does the ball have eyes or something?

I remember Ortiz hitting a few balls to LCF off the Fenway Monster. Once it hits that wall high on a fly, it's an automatic double, as they have to wait for it to fall in.

As to just walking him, I would rather give him a few near the zone, but definitely not too close. A few he may have to chase, hoping he doesn't just reach out and get it. Anything inside and belt high, forget it. The baseball coaches who position these guys sitll haven't found a cure for those 500 footers. Unless, of course, they want to position a fielder out in the stands somewhere so he can throw the ball back. :D ;) :p

BTW, if you click the link, you'll note that this has been going on since Ty Cobbs' days (1920). Teddy Ballgame had one pulled on him also.

[west coast orange and black]

rmb: You gonna reel 'em in Tony, or let 'em struggle for a while? ;)

get yer net ready, rhumba:danceman

[RuthMayBond]

rmb: You gonna reel 'em in Tony, or let 'em struggle for a while? ;)

get yer net ready, rhumba:dancemanTony's advice:
When making a creative digital
photo, shop
for software with the best features :laugh

[Imapotato]

Someone told me awhile back that you can't do the reverse shift, since nobody would be able to cover 1B except the pitcher.

Also, a stolen 2B means the shift won't work anymore, since the 2B runner could then easily go to 3B.

That's how Jeter got his shoulder separated awhile back (2002 or 03). Toronto had the "shift" on Giambi, so Jeter stole 2B. With nobody covering 3B, the catcher, Ken Huckaby (who was wearing a motorcycle style helmet), raced to 3B and slammed into Jeter's right shoulder, separating it.


Why not

You keep the 1b where he is


but the 2nd baseman plays behind 2nd

3rd near the line, SS closer to 3rd


I mean these rookie guys that come up....usually dead pull the ball, and alot of RH batters CANNOT hit the other way

So why not?

[west coast orange and black]

rmb: photo, shop

[RuthMayBond]

rmb: photo, shop
Ed, it
appears the message up above means something.
But my understanding didn't make the
cut, and paste
jewels can look like the real thing ;)

[Brian McKenna]

Shifts have been used since at least the 1870s. Bob Ferguson would move his fielders around trying to counter pull hitters from both sides of the plate.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It was supposedly used against Cy Williams and Ken Williams in 1922.
Hornsby supposedly used it vs. Averill & Trosky on 4/17/1934
Dykes supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/23/1941
Boudreau supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/14/1946
Ted Williams supposedly hit a pennant clinching drive against it on 9/13/1946

Here's another shift I once saw in the news archives, don't recall the date, in the early 1920s.

Philadelphia Athletics put a shift on Babe Ruth, similar to what we see today with Bonds and Giambi.

The result.
First at bat---- ---Ruth lines a double down the left fiield line.
Second at bat-----Ruth strikes out.
Third at bat-------Ruth bunts down the third base line, safe at first.
Fourth at bat----- Ruth again bunts down the third base line and the ball rolls into the outfield, a bunt double.

Standing on second Ruth flashes that famous grin, makes gestures, pointing to the spot vacated by the infielders, holds up two fingers.

The next day, no shift.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

it took ya nearly half an hour to come up with that one, sultan.
yer slippin'. what gives?

Actually about 5 seconds from the time I saw the pic. Wasn't entering it into the funniest line awards; although thanks for offering. Nice work on the pic btw.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Babe Ruth's Own Book of Baseball, published 1928

Hitters, of course, are always trying to cross up outfielders. Now and then they get away with it. One of the best laughs I ever had in my life was at the expense of Charley Jamieson, the Cleveland left fielder, and a good one too.

Over in Cleveland the outfield plays me entirely to right. The right fielder moves back to the wall, close to the foul line. The center fielder goes over to the right field wall in right center and the left fielder swings around to deep center. That leaves left field wide open.

This particular day I saw Jamieson way over in center and decided to try and push the ball to left. Uhle was pitching and whether he was attempting to cross me up or simply made a mistake I don't know. Anyhow he pitched inside and I got a perfect drive down the third base line. It looked like a three bagger for sure, but the sight of Jamieson tearing across that field on his little short legs as if somebody was chasing him got to me.

I was laughing as I left the plate and I was laughing as I turned first base. So were the fans and the rest of the Clevelend club. It was a lot funnier to see than it was to tell about it, and I got laughing so hard that instead of reaching third base I only got to second.

I've seen outfielders crossed up a lot in my day but I never saw one as completely fooled as Jamieson that time - and how he ran, trying to get back into left field to grab that ball!

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It was supposedly used against Cy Williams and Ken Williams in 1922.
Hornsby supposedly used it vs. Averill & Trosky on 4/17/1934
Dykes supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/23/1941
Boudreau supposedly used it vs. Ted Williams 7/14/1946
Ted Williams supposedly hit a pennant clinching drive against it on 9/13/1946

That he did. Ted had only one career IPH and it was that day, to left field.

[RuthMayBond]

Nice work on the pic btw.Whaddya mean, work?

[west coast orange and black]

^^ :laugh :D

[tigers527]

With this whole line of thought. The one thing I always wondered, was when did the standard positions pretty much get cemented in as tradition? Of course you'd always of had to have a battery, and likely basemen (ie 1st base, 2nd base etc.). But allowing the 9 men against 9 men thing, you have 4 whole positions left to be defined? Did any early teams play 4 outfielders forgoing a SS? Or perhaps a rover? Just curious of those more researched then I.