AL Cy Young Award

[hudsonharden]

It's a pretty open field this year with a lot of young guys and veterans as well.
Who's your pick for AL CYA?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Francisco Liriano

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Francisco Liriano
Since when has a rookie won a Cy Young?
I agree, but the writers won't, so I say realistically, Schilling, Mussina or Halladay will win it.

Liriano will win ROY tops, but not he Cy Young.

[flash143817]

I voted for Liriano based on who SHOULD win it.


The writers that don't know anything but W-L record will probably vote for Halladay.

[Gashouse6]

Jon Papelbon

[racosun]

Justin Verlander. He's got a great record, has outdueled Johan Santana in a 1-0 game, and plays for a first-place team. Those are some great assets to have on your side when you're in the business of winning Cy Young awards. I think if he reaches 20 wins, and the Tigers hang on to the AL Central, he's a lock.

[Chisox73]

I'll be honest with you here.I do not see a clear cut favorite for AL Cy Young this year.

But right now,my top 2 guys in no particular order are the 2 rookies,Liriano and Verlander.

[mojorisin71]

Since when has a rookie won a Cy Young?

Fernando Valenzuela in 1981. He also won Rookie of the Year.

[Blackout]

johan santana

[Astro]

No Jered Weaver on the list?

[ssbguyincognito]

Papelbon? He's a closer.

It has to go to Liriano

[geezer]

It's between Liriano and Verlander at this moment.

Let's see if their dream rookie season will finish the same way.

[Astro]

It's between Liriano and Verlander at this moment.

Let's see if their dream rookie season will finish the same way.
Roy Halladay says hello

[yankillaz]

Word, Astro. Nobody mentions Halladay. Don't you guys know that Santana and Liriano will shut both down.

The Award Might End:

1. Halladay
2. Liriano
3. Verlander
4. Santana
5. Papelbon

(Of course, Schilling's got 14 wins too)

[Outta Here]

Cy = Johan Santana
RoY = Francisco Liriano

Twins Double :D :clapping

[flash143817]

Word, Astro. Nobody mentions Halladay. Don't you guys know that Santana and Liriano will shut both down.

The Award Might End:

1. Halladay
2. Liriano
3. Verlander
4. Santana
5. Papelbon

(Of course, Schilling's got 14 wins too)


I expect that this is how it will end, although I highly disagree that this is how it SHOULD end. Writers can never get over their infatuation with W-L record though so they will overrate Halladay because of it.

[Astro]

Liriano, Verlander and Papelbon might not even win the rookie of the year... Jered Weaver is 7-0 in 9 starts... if he can go 14-0 in about 19 starts I think he could steal the RoY award

[PhilWings24]

as long as liriano can keep winning at this rate (which i doubt he can), he'll win it, imho.

as long as he can keep his ERA this low (which again, i doubt he can), he SHOULD win it, but being a rookie/pitching in minnesota means he's gonna need to rack up a good bit of wins to walk away with it


Liriano, Verlander and Papelbon might not even win the rookie of the year... Jered Weaver is 7-0 in 9 starts... if he can go 14-0 in about 19 starts I think he could steal the RoY award

it's gonna take somethin inspired to get weaver the award... if papelbon has an ERA of 3 from here on out, he'll end the year around 2.30, and if liriano keeps this up, he'll take it fairly easily. verlander is my favorite though, just because he's the most likely to keep it up. we don't know how good Liriano or Papelbon is yet, because we know they aren't this good. Verlander has some more realistic numbers, numbers that could hold up for a while.

this ROTY race is incredible though...in a typical year, verlander, paps, and liriano would be a lock, jered weaver would be a very very heavy favorite, joel zumaya would have a very good shot, and jon lester would be a respectable sleeper. not so easy this year though

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Since when has a rookie won a Cy Young?
I agree, but the writers won't, so I say realistically, Schilling, Mussina or Halladay will win it.

Liriano will win ROY tops, but not he Cy Young.
Fernando Vanenzuela won it as a rookie in 1981 and he beat out veteran Tom Seaver. There's no written or "unwritten" rule that a rookie can't win the Cy Young award.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Halladay over Liriano is ridiculous at this point :grouchy

Liriano 115 IP, 12-2 W-L, .857 W%, 1.96 ERA, 132 K, 32 BB, 4.28 K/BB, 10.72 K/9, .192/.251/.285, 0.96 WHIP

Halladay, 162 IP, 13-3 W-L, .813 W%, 3.21 ERA, 94 K, 23 BB, 4.08 K/BB, 5.2 K/9, .259/.288/.379, 1.13 WHIP

Liriano leads the AL in

ERA
lowest BBA
lowst OBPA
lowest slgA
Highest K/9
5th in Ks (despite not starting until May)

Liriano's on base perecentage allowed is lower than Halladya's batting average allowed. Can someone explain to me how Halladay's one extra win makes him the Cy Young award winner of Liriano? :confused:

[Astro]

Halladay over Liriano is ridiculous at this point :grouchy

Liriano 115 IP, 12-2 W-L, .857 W%, 1.96 ERA, 132 K, 32 BB, 4.28 K/BB, 10.72 K/9, .192/.251/.285, 0.96 WHIP

Halladay, 162 IP, 13-3 W-L, .813 W%, 3.21 ERA, 94 K, 23 BB, 4.08 K/BB, 5.2 K/9, .259/.288/.379, 1.13 WHIP

Liriano leads the AL in

ERA
lowest BBA
lowst OBPA
lowest slgA
Highest K/9
5th in Ks (despite not starting until May)

Liriano's on base perecentage allowed is lower than Halladya's batting average allowed. Can someone explain to me how Halladay's one extra win makes him the Cy Young award winner of Liriano? :confused:
How about his 47 extra innings he has pitched over Liriano

[flash143817]

How about his 47 extra innings he has pitched over Liriano

So you voted for Livan Hernandez and Mark Buehrle for last year's Cy Young Award?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

How about his 47 extra innings he has pitched over Liriano
So that trumps over everything else that Liriano leads Halladay (by huge margins)? Halladay doesn't even lead the league in wins. It doesn't bother you that Halladay gives up a higher BA, higher OBP, and a higher slugging percentage and that Liriano has a K/9 rate more that two times as high as Halladay and has a higher K/BB rate? You gotta come up with a more convincing argument than that. You really believe that Halladay has had a better pitching year than Liriano up to this point? :confused:

[insanefishpossay]

How about his 47 extra innings he has pitched over Liriano

If their stats were similar, I would agree that Halladay's 47 more innings pitched would put him above Liriano. However, their stats are not close at all.

[Astro]

So that trumps over everything else that Liriano leads Halladay (by huge margins)? Halladay doesn't even lead the league in wins. It doesn't bother you that Halladay gives up a higher BA, higher OBP, and a higher slugging percentage and that Liriano has a K/9 rate more that two times as high as Halladay and has a higher K/BB rate? You gotta come up with a more convincing argument than that. You really believe that Halladay has had a better pitching year than Liriano up to this point? :confused:
Ok.... and Halladay has faced MANY MANY MAAAAAAAAAANY more hitters, Liriano would not be doing nearly as well if he had 47 more innings....

That is like saying a reliever who has a 0 ERA in 20 innings will have the exact same stats in 67 innings

Yes I do believe so, and he will win the Cy Young

[Astro]

If their stats were similar, I would agree that Halladay's 47 more innings pitched would put him above Liriano. However, their stats are not close at all.
I guess we'll see wont we.... There are still 2 months left in the season, to say that I am completely wrong or that people who think Liriano should win are completely wrong is dumb....

Why make these type of topics when a pitcher could still accumulate 9 or 10 wins before the season is over

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Ok.... and Halladay has faced MANY MANY MAAAAAAAAAANY more hitters, Liriano would not be doing nearly as well if he had 47 more innings....
He may a little worse with 47 more innings or maybe not. But he won't be so bad over 47 inning that his numbers would fall ALL THE WAY down to Halladay's level. Would Liriano's 10.72 K/9 fall all the way down to 5.2 K/9 with 47 more innings. Liriano's ERA is 1.96. Halladay's 3.21.




That is like saying a reliever who has a 0 ERA in 20 innings will have the exact same stats in 67 innings.
A strawman argument. We are not talking about relievers. We are talking about two starters. Liriano has been dominant over the past three months.



Yes I do believe so, and he will win the Cy Young
You must be a Blue Jay homer. :rolleyes:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I guess we'll see wont we.... There are still 2 months left in the season, to say that I am completely wrong or that people who think Liriano should win are completely wrong is dumb....

Why make these type of topics when a pitcher could still accumulate 9 or 10 wins before the season is over
I believe the question asked implies up to now who deserves the AL Cy Young. Of course things may change in the next two months. A lot can happen. Liriano can fade (he is a rookie), he can get injured. Or he can continue his domination. If healthy he can win 20 easily with some nasty Pedro-like numbers. Up to this point (August 7, 2006) to say Halladay has had a better season than Liriano just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. By every measurable pitching metric Liriano is far ahead.

[Astro]

I believe the question asked implies up to now who deserves the AL Cy Young. Of course things may change in the next two months. A lot can happen. Liriano can fade (he is a rookie), he can get injured. Or he can continue his domination. If healthy he can win 20 easily with some nasty Pedro-like numbers. Up to this point (August 7, 2006) to say Halladay has had a better season than Liriano just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. By every measurable pitching metric Liriano is far ahead.
In your opinion....

Lirianio hasnt even been a starter the entire season

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In your opinion....

Lirianio hasnt even been a starter the entire season
Liriano 115 IP, 12-2 W-L, .857 W%, 1.96 ERA, 132 K, 32 BB, 4.28 K/BB, 10.72 K/9, .192/.251/.285, 0.96 WHIP

Halladay, 162 IP, 13-3 W-L, .813 W%, 3.21 ERA, 94 K, 23 BB, 4.08 K/BB, 5.2 K/9, .259/.288/.379, 1.13 WHIP


Is is my opinion that Liriano leads Halladay in W%, ERA, ERA+, Ks, K/9, K/BB, WHIP, BAA, OBPA, SLGA and has fewer losses so far this season?

[sopclod]

Papelbon? He's a closer.

It has to go to Liriano

Relievers don't qualify anymore?

[tigers527]

Relievers don't qualify anymore?

Todd Jones with the "hat trick" CYA, MVP and rolaids reliever of the year!!!!

As I have stated on the awards thread over 80% of Lirianos wins have come against teams with a sub .500 record. All of the other usual suspects, including Verlander (69%) are in the 60%'s. Now, I know it could just be a happenstance of matchups, still that number has to improve for me to include Liriano in these discussions. To date Zach Miner has given Liriano everything he can handle twice.

[flash143817]

Todd Jones with the "hat trick" CYA, MVP and rolaids reliever of the year!!!!

As I have stated on the awards thread over 80% of Lirianos wins have come against teams with a sub .500 record. All of the other usual suspects, including Verlander (69%) are in the 60%'s. Now, I know it could just be a happenstance of matchups, still that number has to improve for me to include Liriano in these discussions. To date Zach Miner has given Liriano everything he can handle twice.

LOL Todd Jones is one of the worst closers of all time. If I was a Tigers fan I would be crying everytime he came into the game. Why Rodney is not the closer is beyond me.

And Liriano has been incredible against literally everybody except the Tigers. I heard he has a 1.39 ERA against everyone else but is over 4.00 against the Tigers. So for that reason I can see why you wouldn't be as high on him because your team is his kryptonite for some reason. He is 12-1 against everyone else but 0-2 against the Tigers. Some pitchers just can't pitch against certain teams for some reason.

Of course, with his injury Liriano almost certainly has unfortunately exited the Cy Young race.

[KCGHOST]

Liriano may well be out the rest of the season, so I went with Verlander. Halladay is right there, too. I am not much on closers and the CYA.

[tigers527]

LOL Todd Jones is one of the worst closers of all time. If I was a Tigers fan I would be crying everytime he came into the game. Why Rodney is not the closer is beyond me.

Come on man...sure I am being tongue in cheek with the "hat trick" and all. If you look though, Todd Jones has given up 1 ER (1 total R too) since June 23rd. Rodney can be pretty wild at times this year, including last night.

[EvanAparra]

I agree, todd jones is not a good closer..

I think papelbon needs a little consideration here, since everyone is talking about liriano's ERA, papelbon isnt exactly a slouch there.

Papelbon or Verlander, because Liriano will probably be out for an extended amount of time.

Jered Weaver go 14-0? You're dreaming.

[Neilios]

No Jered Weaver on the list?

The list was for the Cy Young awards. Not sure if you caught that. 7-0 starts in the middle of the season awards aren't quite as official.

Verlander for ROY - I'm a homer, but he'll be the only one to have pitched a full season and, oh, he has been the most solid starter in baseball down the stretch. How Lackey got July pitcher of the month over him is beyond me, but again, not as official of an award.

Mike Mussina for Cy Young - and I hate the Yankees. He's that deserving.

[willie24fan]

Verlander, if he gets near the top of the league for wins. He's the top pitcher on the league's most dominant team. Its the Lamarr Hoyt, Bob Welch, Zito, Bartolo Colon rule.

[flash143817]

Verlander, if he gets near the top of the league for wins. He's the top pitcher on the league's most dominant team. Its the Lamarr Hoyt, Bob Welch, Zito, Bartolo Colon rule.


And all 4 of them were horrific CYA choices...

[Blackout]

Papelbon just blew back to back saves to the Royals

there goes his legitimacy haha

[EvanAparra]

yeah too bad his ERA is still under 1. tops in the ML by over a run. i wouldnt exactly say his legitimacy gone.

[Reed Johnson]

He may a little worse with 47 more innings or maybe not. But he won't be so bad over 47 inning that his numbers would fall ALL THE WAY down to Halladay's level. Would Liriano's 10.72 K/9 fall all the way down to 5.2 K/9 with 47 more innings. Liriano's ERA is 1.96. Halladay's 3.21.



A strawman argument. We are not talking about relievers. We are talking about two starters. Liriano has been dominant over the past three months.



You must be a Blue Jay homer. :rolleyes:

So you think Halladay's numbers are bad or something? K's dont matter if he is still winning and Halladay is 14-3 now. Looks like its between Halladay and Verlander now because Liriano is possibly out for the season! :clapping
Looks like his arm could'nt handle throwing 47 innings less then Halladay. :gt

[starkeeper]

Of course I would be hoping for Halladay to win it, but what a shame that Liriano is injured. There is still a lot of baseball left!!

[TheKingofKings]

Papelbon? He's a closer.

It has to go to Liriano

Eric GagnÉ won it in 2003

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

It's incredible you all still think Liriano will win, just amazing.

Use your heads, not your hearts.

[starkeeper]

It's incredible you all still think Liriano will win, just amazing.

Use your heads, not your hearts.


That's the beauty of baseball!! No heart, no intersest!! I, for one, cannot ignore my heart.

[Erik Bedard]

A fellow down in Baltimore by the name of Erik Bedard might come from nowhere (or Navan, ON) and steal it, especially with Papelbon struggling and Liriano on the DL. I honestly think Verlander will win the RoY now, and Bedard might steal it if he goes on another tear like he did a couple weeks ago and finishes 19-8 with an ERA under 3.50.

But that's not realistic, so I'd have to go with Verlander.

Why is there a Wang, Lackey, and Rogers choice, but no Bedard choice?

[baseball junkie]

Haven't we had this same thread about five times already this season alone? And as for all those people who voted for Liriano, do you stand by you votes now that Minnesota has shut him down for the year? What did he finish 11-2? Is that even good enough for ROY?

Again, for the fourth or fifth or sixth time on one of these threads, I've picked Halladay.

[flash143817]

It's incredible you all still think Liriano will win, just amazing.

Use your heads, not your hearts.

He obviously won't win it after the injury. But I think that it was as obvious that he deserved it pre-injury that it is that he doesn't post-injury.

[Neilios]

I came up with a "pseudoformula" before in a different thread, only beefed it up a bit and I'll just add it to this one. It's based on where each guy ranks in the most vital stats in pitching: W, Pct, SO, ERA, WHIP, QS. It's sort of like the BCS where the idea is to get the lowest number of "points" as it adds up their ranked # for each category. For example:

1. Johan Santana
W: 13.......t-4th
Pct: .722......t-7th
ERA: 3.24....4th
SO: 178.....1st
WHIP: 1.06....2nd
QS: 16......t-3rd

total points: 21

2. Mike Mussina, NY - 28
3. Curt Schilling, Bos - 32
4. Roy Halladay, Tor - 44
5. Justin Verlander, Det - 48
6. Francisco Liriano, Min - 53
7. Jeremy Bonderman, Det - 56
8. John Lackey, LAA - 72
9. Jose Contreras, Chi - 74
10. Vincente Padilla, Tex - 78
11. Dan Haren, Oak - 83
12. Josh Beckett, Bos - 84
13. Ervin Santana, LAA - 85
t-14. Barry Zito, Oak - 88
t-14. Erik Bedard, Bal - 88
16. Chen-Ming Wang, NY - 107
17. Scott Kazmir, TB - 114
18. Kenny Rogers, Det - 116
19. Randy Johnson, NY - 124
t-20. Nate Robertson, Det - 125
t-20. C.C. Sabathia, Cle - 125

My previous post went with Mike Mussina, only until Santana snuck away with a late win against the Tigers the other night. Jon Papelbon is probably 6th most deserving now that Liriano is out, only because there have been very few exceptions to a reliever winning the CY, and too many starters are having great years. These "rankings" are just as informal and unofficial as anyone else's formulas in this whole forum, and debating is encouraged. Being a homer, I think Verlander is more deserving than Schilling, but this is strictly based on the formula. Jered Weaver, Jon Lester, and Zach Miner naturally don't qualify because they don't have enough IP to qualify for anything else.

Nevertheless, here's an idea of who is more or less deserving.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Very very interesting.

Now you used your head!

[Reed Johnson]

Halladay picked up his LEAGUE LEADING 15th win today! Halladay=Cy Young

[flash143817]

I came up with a "pseudoformula" before in a different thread, only beefed it up a bit and I'll just add it to this one. It's based on where each guy ranks in the most vital stats in pitching: W, Pct, SO, ERA, WHIP, QS. It's sort of like the BCS where the idea is to get the lowest number of "points" as it adds up their ranked # for each category. For example:

1. Johan Santana
W: 13.......t-4th
Pct: .722......t-7th
ERA: 3.24....4th
SO: 178.....1st
WHIP: 1.06....2nd
QS: 16......t-3rd

total points: 21

2. Mike Mussina, NY - 28
3. Curt Schilling, Bos - 32
4. Roy Halladay, Tor - 44
5. Justin Verlander, Det - 48
6. Francisco Liriano, Min - 53
7. Jeremy Bonderman, Det - 56
8. John Lackey, LAA - 72
9. Jose Contreras, Chi - 74
10. Vincente Padilla, Tex - 78
11. Dan Haren, Oak - 83
12. Josh Beckett, Bos - 84
13. Ervin Santana, LAA - 85
t-14. Barry Zito, Oak - 88
t-14. Erik Bedard, Bal - 88
16. Chen-Ming Wang, NY - 107
17. Scott Kazmir, TB - 114
18. Kenny Rogers, Det - 116
19. Randy Johnson, NY - 124
t-20. Nate Robertson, Det - 125
t-20. C.C. Sabathia, Cle - 125

My previous post went with Mike Mussina, only until Santana snuck away with a late win against the Tigers the other night. Jon Papelbon is probably 6th most deserving now that Liriano is out, only because there have been very few exceptions to a reliever winning the CY, and too many starters are having great years. These "rankings" are just as informal and unofficial as anyone else's formulas in this whole forum, and debating is encouraged. Being a homer, I think Verlander is more deserving than Schilling, but this is strictly based on the formula. Jered Weaver, Jon Lester, and Zach Miner naturally don't qualify because they don't have enough IP to qualify for anything else.

Nevertheless, here's an idea of who is more or less deserving.

Just out of curiosity, how does Liriano accumulate 53 points under your system?

[geezer]

Halladay picked up his LEAGUE LEADING 15th win today! Halladay=Cy Young

As of today, if the season ended today, HAlladay will be the top choice, Liriano im not sure if he ever pitched again this season.

[Reed Johnson]

Well just another great pitched game from Halladay today. 16-3, Cy Young worth? I think so.

[durang]

Santana is currently number ONE in the AL in:
ERA, BAA, WHIP, K, OBP, OPS, IP
he is number TWO in:
K/BB, K/9, and SLG

Also - his Run Support rank is 32 ! (whereas Halladay is 6 and Verlander is 8).

So Santana has one less win than Halladay even though his Run Support has been MUCH WORSE.

How in the world is Halladay the clear favorite for Cy Young at this point ? Santana is - once again - dominating the stats but - once again - his Run Support is terrible. If "Cy" is just a meaure of who wins the most games (the one stat a pitcher CANNOT control) then it's a joke.

[flash143817]

Santana is currently number ONE in the AL in:
ERA, BAA, WHIP, K, OBP, OPS, IP
he is number TWO in:
K/BB, K/9, and SLG

Also - his Run Support rank is 32 ! (whereas Halladay is 6 and Verlander is 8).

So Santana has one less win than Halladay even though his Run Support has been MUCH WORSE.

How in the world is Halladay the clear favorite for Cy Young at this point ? Santana is - once again - dominating the stats but - once again - his Run Support is terrible. If "Cy" is just a meaure of who wins the most games (the one stat a pitcher CANNOT control) then it's a joke.

I agree completely. Santana has taken over as the CYA favorite since Liriano went down with the injury. And people really should be looking at the whole picture, but apparently it is easier to just look at the win total. Or listen to what ESPN says.

[Neilios]

Just out of curiosity, how does Liriano accumulate 53 points under your system?

35 points alone were from just 10 QS. Doesn't really matter much now, considering he's done and Santana is running away with it. The pseudoformula updated through tonight's games:

1. Santana, Min - 10
2. Mussina, NY - 29
3. Schilling, Bos - 32
4. Halladay, Tor - 37
5. Verlander, Det - 51
6. Bonderman, Det - 56
7. Haren, Oak - 59
8. Zito, Oak - 75
9. Lackey, LAA - 77
10. Wang, NY - 81
11. Santana, LAA - 83
12. Padilla, Tex - 84
13. Bedard, Bal - 86
t-14. Contreras, Chi - 94
t-14. Rogers, Det - 94
16. Johnson, NY - 99
t-17. Robertson, Det - 100
t-17. Beckett, Bos - 100
19. Kazmir, TB - 101
20. Sabathia, Cle - 115

[flash143817]

35 points alone were from just 10 QS. Doesn't really matter much now, considering he's done and Santana is running away with it. The pseudoformula updated through tonight's games:

1. Santana, Min - 10
2. Mussina, NY - 29
3. Schilling, Bos - 32
4. Halladay, Tor - 37
5. Verlander, Det - 51
6. Bonderman, Det - 56
7. Haren, Oak - 59
8. Zito, Oak - 75
9. Lackey, LAA - 77
10. Wang, NY - 81
11. Santana, LAA - 83
12. Padilla, Tex - 84
13. Bedard, Bal - 86
t-14. Contreras, Chi - 94
t-14. Rogers, Det - 94
16. Johnson, NY - 99
t-17. Robertson, Det - 100
t-17. Beckett, Bos - 100
19. Kazmir, TB - 101
20. Sabathia, Cle - 115

Yeah I knew he was out of it with his injury. Just curious how he had gotten so many points when he seemed to be in 1st in most categories but I forgot the QS category.

I have to say the results of your formula are pretty much in line with my thinking though. Santana has taken over as a clear favorite.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Santana is the clear favorite and has clearly established himself, combined with the last couple seasons, as the best pitcher in baseball

[Neilios]

Watch out for Dan Haren... don't give it to him, just watch out for him...

[flash143817]

Watch out for Dan Haren... don't give it to him, just watch out for him...

I watched out for him enough to pick him on a fantasy team.