Jeter For MVP!

[DoubleX]

I want to get the bandwagon rolling now! There is an anti-Yankee and anti-Jeter bias out there in the national media, so we have to start combatting that because Jeter really deserves serious MVP consideration this year. He's batting a great .355 (closing the gap on Mauer), playing good defense, driving in runs, and stealing bases (23/25), and it's all gravy because he's a SS. True, his power numbers are unimpressive, but that shouldn't condemn his candidacy (it didn't stop Ichiro in 2001). This team has been beset by injuries and distractions (the whole E-Rod thing), but Jeter has remained great throughout and has kept this team not just afloat, but in playoff position. So let's go Jeter!

[TonyStarks]

***SIGH***

DX, you know I haven't always seen 'Eye to Eye' on Jeter and recently I've started to embrace the guy....but I think your right.

He's been the One constant thing on the Yanks. The guy has just been lights out and he isn't showing any signs of slowing down right now.
I'm glad Jeter's a Yankee.

[yankeeman590]

he's definetly a candidate for the mvp, in fact today on espn on one of the shows, someone said he should be considered for mvp. he's having one of his best years in terms of avg., rbi's, and sbs.

[DoubleX]

I really can't think of too many other serious candidates at this point. Ortiz, of course, but he will always have to fight the DH thing. Manny to a lesser extent. Vernon Wells is having a great year. Thome is too, but I think Konerko will steal some of his thunder (as well as Dye). Joe Mauer has to factor in. Hafner would have to be considered if not for his team's performance and the DH thing. Even the pitchers could get in on the act - namely Liriano and Papelbon. The point is that there really aren't any run away candidates yet and I think Jeter has done just as much as anyone to deserve consideration.

[MelkyCano22]

here are some stats of ortiz vs the cptn


Jeter
.429/.509/.612 off lefties
.354 avg
.384 RISP
.425 RISP w/ 2 outs
.500 bases loaded
.386 w/ 2 outs
.333 late inning pressure

Ortiz
.285 avg
.306 RISP
.288 RISP w/ 2 outs
.364 bases loaded
.274 w/2 outs
.300 late inning pressure

[mikesty]

Your Jeter stats plus a few vs JoeJoe:

Jeter (R)
.429/.509/.612 off lefties
.354 .429 .494 Total
.354 avg
.384 RISP
.425 RISP w/ 2 outs
.500 bases loaded
.386 w/ 2 outs
.333 late inning pressure << where did you get that from?

Mauer (L)
.358 .409 .447 off lefties
.370 .451 .557 off righties
.366 .441 .518 total

meh i'll get some later when I care :)

[YankeeFan01]

jeter for mvp!

[DoubleX]

here are some stats of ortiz vs the cptn


Jeter
.429/.509/.612 off lefties
.354 avg
.384 RISP
.425 RISP w/ 2 outs
.500 bases loaded
.386 w/ 2 outs
.333 late inning pressure

Ortiz
.285 avg
.306 RISP
.288 RISP w/ 2 outs
.364 bases loaded
.274 w/2 outs
.300 late inning pressure

Wow, despite all the big late inning moments Ortiz has had this year, it could be argued that Jeter has been more "clutch" in pressure situations.

I think Jeter will have an uphill battle because of the bias and lack of power numbers, but at this point, I really think he's the choice.

[mikesty]

23/25 SB is pretty good. Moving yourself into scoring position for the rest of your team is a good idea. Don't forget, he really is the leader of the Yanks.

OK, for those of you who are really good with stats, can you find this:

1. When JD gets into scoring position, how often does Jeter drive him in?

2. How does he compare offensively to other AL shortstops?

3. How does he compare to other 2-hole hitters especially in terms of runs and RBI?

[Redfoot]

Wow, despite all the big late inning moments Ortiz has had this year, it could be argued that Jeter has been more "clutch" in pressure situations.

I think Jeter will have an uphill battle because of the bias and lack of power numbers, but at this point, I really think he's the choice.

Those numbers that were posted are accompanied with some bias, since it was only batting average listed. When looking at OBP and SLG, things change a bit, because Ortiz's SLG is off the charts in RISP/late inning situations.

That being said, I still believe Jeter is a better MVP choice than Ortiz at this point in the season. Ortiz is not even the best player on his own team (Manny), nor the best at his position in the American League (Hafner). How can he be the league's most valuable player?

Still a lot of season left to play, but the AL MVP watch will be fun to follow.

EDIT: wow, I stand corrected. Ortiz's SLG is off the charts in Close & Late, but Jeter's OPS is higher in RISP and RISP w/ 2 outs. Interesting.

[ssbguyincognito]

Yeah, how can you give Ortiz the MVP when 1) he's not even the best hitter on his own team (Manny has alwyas been better) and 2) he's not even the best DH in his own league.

Of course, Ortiz gets a lot more media atetntion than Hafner, but look at their stats.

[NYYDerekJeter]

Jeter is the captain, he does everything on the field and makes the team win games. His play this year is the definition of a MVP. I really hope he'll win it but I think the writters will give it to that SOB Ortiz... I hate him, he can't play defense and the only thing he does is hitting homeruns, he is so overrated.

[ssbguyincognito]

I'd actually like to see a test done between being a DH and yuor peformrnace in the later innings.

Playing the field gets really draining (both mentally and physically), so you'd think that twoards the end of the game, those hwo play the field get more tired, and hence perform worse.

Of course, theonly thing tiring Ortiz does is eat cookies in the dugout.

[mikesty]

After all, he is the cookie monster...

[Evangelion]

Just confused by people bring up best player on the team and position. Jeter not the best player on his team, but people will say he is with his numbers. Yet Ortiz's numbers say he's better DH than Hafner and better player than Manny, yet people bring up the fact he's not the best on his team or at the position. Not debating that, because I know Hafner and Manny are superior hitters than Ortiz, but if we're going to bother bring that up, than A-Rod the best player on the Yankees while Tejada would be the best SS, offensively, in MLB.

Of course, what that player doing this year is what matters, not if he's the "best" at the position or on the team. Ortiz's numbers are still superior to those of Manny and Hafner at the moment. Though, let's not waste time focus on Ortiz since this more about Jeter. Bashing Ortiz to make Jeter look better? You don't even need to do that. Look at the numbers and they speak for themselves at how good Jeter been this year.

At the moment, I like Jeter quite a bit for MVP since he might be able to top Mauer for the batting title. Along with everything else he's been doing this season. Jeter deserve to be the MVP and I might incline to give him my vote. Jeter on pace to put similar totals he put up in 1999, the year Pudge won it and when Pedro got shafted for it. While Ortiz has had Manny most of the year, Jeter been playing on a Yankee dragged down by injuried and a struggling A-Rod, though his numbers don't look that bad when you look at them. Jeter been doing a good job, plus with that many RBI in the number 2 hole quite a lot.

How's Jeter's fielding this year? That should be another positive for him, if he's playing good SS this season.

[DoubleX]

Just confused by people bring up best player on the team and position. Jeter not the best player on his team, but people will say he is with his numbers. Yet Ortiz's numbers say he's better DH than Hafner and better player than Manny, yet people bring up the fact he's not the best on his team or at the position. Not debating that, because I know Hafner and Manny are superior hitters than Ortiz, but if we're going to bother bring that up, than A-Rod the best player on the Yankees while Tejada would be the best SS, offensively, in MLB.

Of course, what that player doing this year is what matters, not if he's the "best" at the position or on the team. Ortiz's numbers are still superior to those of Manny and Hafner at the moment. Though, let's not waste time focus on Ortiz since this more about Jeter. Bashing Ortiz to make Jeter look better? You don't even need to do that. Look at the numbers and they speak for themselves at how good Jeter been this year.

At the moment, I like Jeter quite a bit for MVP since he might be able to top Mauer for the batting title. Along with everything else he's been doing this season. Jeter deserve to be the MVP and I might incline to give him my vote. Jeter on pace to put similar totals he put up in 1999, the year Pudge won it and when Pedro got shafted for it. While Ortiz has had Manny most of the year, Jeter been playing on a Yankee dragged down by injuried and a struggling A-Rod, though his numbers don't look that bad when you look at them. Jeter been doing a good job, plus with that many RBI in the number 2 hole quite a lot.

How's Jeter's fielding this year? That should be another positive for him, if he's playing good SS this season.

The inclination to bring Ortiz down might be because he is perceived as the main competition, especially since he's just building on momentum that he had last year. I must say that I'm a little more open to him winning this year than last year, but I'm still pretty much against a DH winning. For example, I read someplace in the Sox forum that an Ortiz error tonight cost the Sox 4 run. If that's the case, that's a pretty big deal (I'm still wondering why he was playing in the field). The fact that Ortiz has a glaring deficiency in his game that hurts his team and that he's able to hide while others contribute in that respect, diminishes his value, IMO. I guess, IMO, we can never really gauge a DH's true value compared to a position player because the position player is out there at least contributing defensively and in some cases, making an impact defensively, while the DH is able to not face that part of the game and likely not hurt his team in that part of the game (while also having an added advantage over position players to be the better hitter).

Anyway, I don't want this to be taken as a bashing Ortiz post - it's more a bashing DH post. Ortiz is a terrific talent and I very much respect what he does with the stick, but in the MVP discussion, he, and all DHs, will have an uphill battle in my book. Basically, a DH better be hitting something the likes Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, Lou Gehrig and so forth to get the MVP from me. I'll take a SS hitting .355 with good speed and steady defense over a slugging DH in terms of value. I can find a dozen or so other slugging DH/1Bman to do stuff at or close to Ortiz (or Hafnter of Thome) - doing what Jeter is doing this year is at a much great premium because he is a SS (same could be said for Mauer at catcher, but I have a feeling he'll get undersupported in the MVP vote due to playing in Minnesota - a shame really, though a big September can change everything).

[Evangelion]

Ortiz is out there, because Lowell banged up, so Youkillis has to play 3B while there's no back-up 1B besides Ortiz, so Ortiz has to play 1B. They have a man that back-up Youkillis at 1B in the minor leagues, but they're not bringing him up.

Mauer's batting average has been coming down lately. Consider he's a catcher, you could say it's harder for them to put up such offensive numbers consider the position than say any position player, especially a DH. Of course, such things are not consider the majority of the time.

I'm a person that prefer looking at Jeter being on the field as a positive rather than worry about Ortiz being a DH as negative. I understand why people are bashing Ortiz, DoubleX. But, I prefer talking more about the positive of your team player rather than talk about the negative of another team player up for the reward.

Sadly, if either of them win, they'll get "They're popular" or "They play in Boston or New York" as a reason for winning the award if Thome or Mauer came into the picture. At least we can say Ortiz and Jeter are more deserving of MVP award than David Wright, who's clearly not the best player on his team. Still confused why everyone pimped David Wright for MVP in NL after a couple of clutch hits. People really start extremely over-rating a player's value after a few clutch hits forgetting what he's been doing the rest of the year.

[DoubleX]

Sadly, if either of them win, they'll get "They're popular" or "They play in Boston or New York" as a reason for winning the award if Thome or Mauer came into the picture. At least we can say Ortiz and Jeter are more deserving of MVP award than David Wright, who's clearly not the best player on his team. Still confused why everyone pimped David Wright for MVP in NL after a couple of clutch hits. People really start extremely over-rating a player's value after a few clutch hits forgetting what he's been doing the rest of the year.

Wright is like the flavor of the month down here. The Met fans and media here are trying to hype Wright and Jose Reyes like they are the second-coming of Jeter; there is a lot of push here for Reyes to get the MVP as well. That's not to say that they won't end up being better players than Jeter (though I don't think Reyes will, Wright maybe), but Jeter is and pretty much always has been, enormously popular, and it seems like people are trying to force Wright and Reyes into that. And you're right about Wright's MVP consideration - right now, I think the NL MVP might be his own teammate, Carlos Beltran. Beltran really seems to fly under the radar here, it's weird.

Back to the AL...I guess if we're going to consider Ortiz for the MVP, he has to weighed against Thome and Hafner. I don't have their stats in front of me, but has he been more valuable than those guys? Hafner might be removed from the conversation by default since his team isn't competing.

[Evangelion]

Hafner removed from discussion since his team not competing and his numbers are not even better than Ortiz. I don't care if he has a slightly higher batting average or OBP. To be a MVP on a losing team, you need to be that much better than the next player to be consider. Like A-Rod and Dawson were. Hafner not, so I won't bother discuss him further.

Thome has 33 HR, 83 RBI, .416 OBP. and 298. AVG. His numbers are not better than Ortiz and Ortiz has 6 more HR, 25 more RBI and such. Let's face it, HR and RBI are the numbers people care about. As well as the ridiculous theory that Ortiz 9th inning walk-off mean that "much" as the media and fans try to think. I'm not down playing what Ortiz has done, but people starting over-rating the "walk-off" hit far too much.

For DH, I give Ortiz the nod with much confidence at the moment. At the moment, Ortiz and Jeter for DH. Pick your poison! Power and drives runs or speed, produces runs and fielding. Of course, power usually gets the nod over speed. That's just how it's is.

[ssbguyincognito]

Ortiz: 291/395/627, 39 hrs, 108 rbis, 1.022 OPS
Manny: 319/429/633, 31 hrs, 89 rbis, 1.063 OPS
Hafner: 306/430/641, 33 hrs, 94 rbis, 1.071 OPS

Out of all these categories, RBIs is the stupidest (Hafner shouldn't be faulted because he's on the worse team). HRs are second, because they focus on only a very single part of the game which isn't fair to everyone (after all, Ortiz does bat in Fenway).

We see that on his own team, Ortiz is not even as good offensively as Manny (higher OBP, SLG, and therefore OPS) -- and of course Manny plays the field too. In his own league, Hafner is a better DH than Ortiz (higher OBP, SLG, and therefore OPS).

I really can't see why anyone would vote for Ortiz for MVP.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I`d say their are 4 candidates, Jeter, Ortiz, Thome and Maur. This should by know means be the end of the discussion but this is a good way to gauge how much value each player has. These are the candidates WARP 3 or Wins Above Replacement Player 3.

Mauer=9.8

Thome=7.5

Jeter=10.2

Ortiz=8.1

1st-Jeter

2nd-Mauer

3rd-Ortiz

4th-Thome

Just an interesting note I thought I`d mention :atthepc

[Evangelion]

Ortiz: 291/395/627, 39 hrs, 108 rbis, 1.022 OPS
Manny: 319/429/633, 31 hrs, 89 rbis, 1.063 OPS
Hafner: 306/430/641, 33 hrs, 94 rbis, 1.071 OPS

Out of all these categories, RBIs is the stupidest (Hafner shouldn't be faulted because he's on the worse team). HRs are second, because they focus on only a very single part of the game which isn't fair to everyone (after all, Ortiz does bat in Fenway).

We see that on his own team, Ortiz is not even as good offensively as Manny (higher OBP, SLG, and therefore OPS) -- and of course Manny plays the field too. In his own league, Hafner is a better DH than Ortiz (higher OBP, SLG, and therefore OPS).

I really can't see why anyone would vote for Ortiz for MVP.
Because, you completely disregard the stat that Ortiz is better than both Hafner and Manny, RBI and HR. Instead, you just consider the other stat, which Hafner and Manny are better in, but not by much.

What I see from those stat you posted Manny and Hafner are just better than Ortiz in certain categories, but not by much. While Ortiz better than them in HR and RBI, but not by much. You could pick either man for the MVP. Not sure why you think it's weird if a person would vote for Ortiz for MVP.

Ortiz and clutch? How about we ask everyone in baseball and see how difficult it is to come up when your team losing in the bottom ninth inning and come through. Most people in baseball know what Ortiz is doing amazing. I think baseball players would have a good idea how hard it would be to come up when the game on the line.

It's the situation that Ortiz came through. People seem to forget that a lot and just choose to look at Ortiz late inning exploits as nothing more than another HR, just like a HR in first inning to win the game.

Hafner not blowing Ortiz or any other person up for the MVP out. He's also on a losing team. Not sure why people can't bring him up when certain stats of his are just small margine better than Ortiz's stats. Just because you choose not to focus on HR and RBI doesn't mean they no longer count.

As for this park aspect you brought up. Hafner plays in Jacobs Field. Let's not bother bring up the park aspect unless we should. Like, if a player from San Diego was up for the reward against a player from the Rockies.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Because, you completely disregard the stat that Ortiz is better than both Hafner and Manny, RBI and HR. Instead, you just consider the other stat, which Hafner and Manny are better in, but not by much.

What I see from those stat you posted Manny and Hafner are just better than Ortiz in certain categories, but not by much. While Ortiz better than them in HR and RBI, but not by much. You could pick either man for the MVP. Not sure why you think it's weird if a person would vote for Ortiz for MVP.

Ortiz and clutch? How about we ask everyone in baseball and see how difficult it is to come up when your team losing in the bottom ninth inning and come through. Most people in baseball know what Ortiz is doing amazing. I think baseball players would have a good idea how hard it would be to come up when the game on the line.

It's the situation that Ortiz came through. People seem to forget that a lot and just choose to look at Ortiz late inning exploits as nothing more than another HR, just like a HR in first inning to win the game.

Hafner not blowing Ortiz or any other person up for the MVP out. He's also on a losing team. Not sure why people can't bring him up when certain stats of his are just small margine better than Ortiz's stats. Just because you choose not to focus on HR and RBI doesn't mean they no longer count.

As for this park aspect you brought up. Hafner plays in Jacobs Field. Let's not bother bring up the park aspect unless we should. Like, if a player from San Diego was up for the reward against a player from the Rockies.
I have a strong hatred for RBI's/RBI and the belief in "clutch hitting" so I disagree with most of your argument.

[Honus Wagner]

IMO, Ortiz leads the race, but his 2 games in the field with errors leading to unearned runs and losses hurts. But what he has going for him is that you can quantify his impact to the Sox W's...game winning hits are much harder to overlook than the intangibles that Jeter brings.

Also, Verlander and Liriano get completely short-changed in the debate. MVP does not stand for Best Positional Player.

My grumblings, if Jeter wins then Ortiz will have 2 back-to-back seasons with no hardware. NY lovers will not be able to whine about media bias--those honors will be bestowed to Boston, Chicago, Minny, Detroit and the West Coast:)

[DoubleX]

My grumblings, if Jeter wins then Ortiz will have 2 back-to-back seasons with no hardware. NY lovers will not be able to whine about media bias--those honors will be bestowed to Boston, Chicago, Minny, Detroit and the West Coast:)

In this case, if Ortiz doesn't win, it will again be a DH bias, like it probably was last year. Besides, you can't call something a bias if the player actually deserves it (and of course, that is open to much debate).

[Evangelion]

In this case, if Ortiz doesn't win, it will again be a DH bias, like it probably was last year. Besides, you can't call something a bias if the player actually deserves it (and of course, that is open to much debate).
You could blame DH bias. Though, I prefer to look at last year as A-Rod having better numbers than Ortiz in quite a number of categories while also playing a Gold Glove level 3B last year. Though, most people would agree that it was DH bias that cost Ortiz the MVP last year, if he does not win this year, this year as well.


I have a strong hatred for RBI's/RBI and the belief in "clutch hitting" so I disagree with most of your argument.
Well, consider most people in baseball find what Ortiz doing is quite "stunning" when he come up late in the game and come through. Not sure what more there is to disagree with when people that do play the game find "clutch hitting" quite a positive for Ortiz.

Also, I think you, like most people that like disregard "clutch hitting", forget one of the most important aspects of it. The situation of when the player get the hit. Sorry, but you and neither will I know the difference between driving in the winning run earlier in than the game than driving in the winning runs when you're team down to their last at bat. Though, I can imagine the difficulty of the situation and Ortiz deserve credit for coming though in pressure situation when his team down to their final outs.

You do perform differently during a normal situation than a pressure situation.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Well, consider most people in baseball find what Ortiz doing is quite "stunning" when he come up late in the game and come through. Not sure what more there is to disagree with when people that do play the game find "clutch hitting" quite a positive for Ortiz.

Also, I think you, like most people that like disregard "clutch hitting", forget one of the most important aspects of it. The situation of when the player get the hit. Sorry, but you and neither will I know the difference between driving in the winning run earlier in than the game than driving in the winning runs when you're team down to their last at bat. Though, I can imagine the difficulty of the situation and Ortiz deserve credit for coming though in pressure situation when his team down to their final outs.

You do perform differently during a normal situation than a pressure situation.
Certainly it is more difficult. I`m not going to disagree with that but a clutch hit isn`t more valuable unless in a purely phsycological way.

[PhilWings24]

3 big points that just about all fans seem to be missing, 2 of which will draw some heat:

1) Its most VALUABLE player, not best player.
- i for one am a moderate disbeliever in clutch hitting, but a run scoring hit is more valuable then one that isn't. a player who hits 300/400/500 with zero rbi's and zero runs scored helps his team less than a 290/390/490 hitter with 100 rbis and 100 runs scored. whether its due to luck or clutch, that's an indisputable fact.

2) Fenway doesn't help a power lefty. it just doesn't. this is only relevant to the hafner/papi discussion, but
- fenway is 385 to deep right, and 420 to deep center, with a 17 foot wall (in center). so that's actually deep right, and a very deep center.
- the jake is 375 to right, 405 to center. not entirely sure how people come to the conclusion fenway's helpin papi.

3) This is the biggest heat capsule, and i don't expect anyone to acknowledge its validity.
- jeter isn't a good fielder. he's below average. papi's defense helps his team more than jeter's helps his, because jeter's HURTS his team. like i said, i doubt much of anyone will acknowledge this, but jeter's RF is bad, his fielding percentage is bad, and his ZR is atrocious. and he won both gold gloves because writers can't handle the fact that such a golden boy is weak with the glove, and he made an absolutely incredible catch against the sox, so it was more justifiable.

so the only way the defense arguement would work is if papi was some slob that was lazy and refused to play the field. however, his desire to play first is well documented, and the sox won't let him.

that said, if the season ended today, you couldn't give it to papi. his team's record isn't good enough to grant his team a spot outright (i believer there'd be one game playoff(s), but you get my point)

[ssbguyincognito]

Fenway doesn't help a power lefty. it just doesn't.

The Pesky pole is a huge benefit to leftys. I've seen so many foul line drives become HRs. Especially for smoeone like Ortiz, who pulls the ball down the line a lot. Also, Ortiz has great opposite field power -- and in Fenway, any fly ball to left field becomes either a double or a HR.


however, his desire to play first is well documented, and the sox won't let him.

They won't let hm because he's jsut too bad at it. For example, this week he played 1B on two consecutive days, and had two errors which lead to 5 unearned runs total. Jeter is actually a little better than average defensively (granted, he's not gold glove caliber), but he's MUCH better than Ortiz.

I remember a Yankee-Red Sox game in 2004 when the bases were loaded and someone hit a groundball to Ortiz at 1B. The ball went throguh the webbing of his glvoe. I didn't even know that was possible.

[Mariano_Rivera]

3 big points that just about all fans seem to be missing, 2 of which will draw some heat:

1) Its most VALUABLE player, not best player.
- i for one am a moderate disbeliever in clutch hitting, but a run scoring hit is more valuable then one that isn't. a player who hits 300/400/500 with zero rbi's and zero runs scored helps his team less than a 290/390/490 hitter with 100 rbis and 100 runs scored. whether its due to luck or clutch, that's an indisputable fact.

2) Fenway doesn't help a power lefty. it just doesn't. this is only relevant to the hafner/papi discussion, but
- fenway is 385 to deep right, and 420 to deep center, with a 17 foot wall (in center). so that's actually deep right, and a very deep center.
- the jake is 375 to right, 405 to center. not entirely sure how people come to the conclusion fenway's helpin papi.

3) This is the biggest heat capsule, and i don't expect anyone to acknowledge its validity.
- jeter isn't a good fielder. he's below average. papi's defense helps his team more than jeter's helps his, because jeter's HURTS his team. like i said, i doubt much of anyone will acknowledge this, but jeter's RF is bad, his fielding percentage is bad, and his ZR is atrocious. and he won both gold gloves because writers can't handle the fact that such a golden boy is weak with the glove, and he made an absolutely incredible catch against the sox, so it was more justifiable.

so the only way the defense arguement would work is if papi was some slob that was lazy and refused to play the field. however, his desire to play first is well documented, and the sox won't let him.

that said, if the season ended today, you couldn't give it to papi. his team's record isn't good enough to grant his team a spot outright (i believer there'd be one game playoff(s), but you get my point)
1) I disagree he has helped his team more but the second one got lucky. Should you punish Jeter because he bats second and therefore has less RBI's. Should you favor Ortiz because he bats in front of Manny who consistently drives him in?

2)I won`t dispute that one bit :D

3)I understand your point with Jeter 100% but he is slightly above average with a 101 Rate 2 meaning over the course of 100 games he saves his team 1 run. Clearly something very small though because Ortiz would automatically have 100 because he does not help or hurt his team through defense.

[538280]

3)I understand your point with Jeter 100% but he is slightly above average with a 101 Rate 2 meaning over the course of 100 games he saves his team 1 run. Clearly something very small though because Ortiz would automatically have 100 because he does not help or hurt his team through defense.

Why don't you look at actual defensive value, not the rate. That's the problem with above replacement level or above average metrics, they can't deal with the DH. A DH does NOT have more defensive value than a below average shortstop. It's not even close. That is why I would trust defensive WS, which has intrinsic positional weights, before Rate 2, FRAR, or FRAA. Personally, I have a hard time trusting any of BP's metrics when they don't tell us how they're calculated.

BTW, as of right now I'd say Jeter should win the MVP.

[PhilWings24]

1) I disagree he has helped his team more but the second one got lucky. Should you punish Jeter because he bats second and therefore has less RBI's. Should you favor Ortiz because he bats in front of Manny who consistently drives him in?

2)I won`t dispute that one bit :D

3)I understand your point with Jeter 100% but he is slightly above average with a 101 Rate 2 meaning over the course of 100 games he saves his team 1 run. Clearly something very small though because Ortiz would automatically have 100 because he does not help or hurt his team through defense.

1) i actually changed my mind a tiny bit on that one from when i posted it til now, so i'd be tempted to agree with you to a degree. but what i was saying isn't that the second player is better, or that i would rather have him on my team. but over the course of that season, his production was more valuable to his team. i agree that it was due to luck, but lucky production is still production, if you get what i'm saying. i could really go either way on this one though

2) way to go, that's a concept very few people seem to grasp lol. and--this being adressed to ssbguyincognito-- pesky pole does help, but i can honestly say that, as a fan who has missed maybe 25-35 games since 2003, i can't remember david ortiz ever hitting one around that pole (he hit one over it in the '04 world series, but that would've been a homerun in any park). i'm sure that he has, don't get me wrong, but i can't remember one, so its not like that is giving him HRs at nearly the rate the CF wall is taking them away. pesky only helps on balls right down the line. a few feet off the line, and it becomes a deeper-than-average RF. i remember johnny damon taking advantage of that way more than papi has, although i'm sure papi has been helped by it a few times. papi's power is to rightcenter, which is very deep at fenway. and the green monster helps his average more than it does his HR, but it does help. he's a line drive hitter, its tough to hit a liner over that wall. but it does turn his occasional weak pop up into a double off the wall.

3) i'm just curious, where did you find those numbers? the only updated stats i have access to are the simple ones and ZR. i was just assuming he was still well below average, cus his ZR is something like 22nd for shortstops, and his fielding percentage is around 9 i think. that's interesting info though.
again, switching to ssb now, and his glove broke on that play at first. and the fact that he's terrible doesn't matter if he doesn't play it. jeter'd be a trashy 3rd baseman. doesn't take away from the fact he's either the best or 2nd best overall shortstop in baseball. and-i don't know this for a fact, so you could be right, but i've always gotten the impression that papi's defense isn't the reason he DH's. it's that he consistently had knee problems in minnesota, and while i think you can bank on that being a product of the turf, i think the FO is playing it safe, in case it was a product of him playing the field. his career ZR is .791, which is indisputably bad, but not eye-popping. and when you take into account the fact that he doesn't get the same reps that an average 1b does (therefore less comfort), and that just about all his time at first has come on turf (which is tough for corner infielders...all infielders, really), you can figure it would be a bit better. no way it'd be above average, but i bet you'd find he wasn't the enormous liability that he's been made out to be. just a run of the mill trashy first baseman.

but...my main point with that last big bit was that, either way, his defensive deficiencies (fun to say) at a position he doesn't play is irrelevant. so i guess yes, he does play it about 10 games a year, making it barely relevant.

[ssbguyincognito]

Nobody's saying Ortiz is a bad hitter. He's one of the top 5 hitters in the majors (Pujols, ortiz, a-rod, manny, hafner). But the problem is that's all he does.

He may have a lot of desire to play the field, but hey, I have a lot of desire to hit 40 hrs for a major league team and make millions of dollars and have sex with very hot women -- but does that mean it's going to happen?

Ortiz is SO BAD defensively. You can't even watch him play. And that hutrs him a lot. For example, y ou might see that Jeter is above Ortiz both in WARP and VORP, even though Ortiz puts up monster offensive numbers. And sure, jeter isn't a gold glove shortstop, but he's decent at the position. Ortiz wouldn't be decent at ANY position. (case in point: this week he started 2 games at 1B, and his team had 5 unearned runs as a result).

You can't argue that Ortiz is the MVP of the league because he isn't even the MVP of his own team.

[SoxSon]

You can't argue that Ortiz is the MVP of the league because he isn't even the MVP of his own team.

I would disagree with this, as would 99% of Boston fans, I figure. Regardless of numbers, MVP is about the player which lifts a team up, both in the wins column and in terms of motivation and hunger. Jeter does both those things for the Yanks; Ortiz does both those things for the Sox.

We all know that batting stats alone don't dictate the winner of MVP. Clearly, there are other awards for that, as there are other awards given for defense. MVP is, or should be (in my opinion), about the player who is unarguably the core energy of a winning team. Depending on what happens with the postseason, the debate between Ortiz and Jeter may be made much easier, as they both have strong arguments for most valuable player in the AL. Either way, though, Ortiz is in the running, as he should be.

[Evangelion]

1) I disagree he has helped his team more but the second one got lucky. Should you punish Jeter because he bats second and therefore has less RBI's. Should you favor Ortiz because he bats in front of Manny who consistently drives him in?
Jeter's run total should not be counted, because Giambi and A-Rod are hitting behide him. Not just one All-Star, but two All-Star. Should Ortiz be punished for batting third? RBI might be focus on too much, it's still an important category.

Instead of consider RBI important, you do the exact opposite, disregard the category. Since every baseball writer consider the category important to a degree. It's odd when people try to disregard the category. Not saying it's the most important category, but to disregard like you seem to have seem odd to me.

I wonder if Ortiz was everyday 1B would people complain about him being half of a player. I don't know about you, but I rather have him DH than hurting the team on the field. Do you know that's positive since he help the team on the offensive side while never hurting them on defensive, but neither helping them either. People would just bring up the fact that Ortiz was a bad fielder and since Jeter not mind blowing, people would disregard fielding altogether, but Ortiz is a DH, so people want to make a huge issue out of defense since the other player does play defense while he does not.

I'm ok with that, but people seem to forget the fact that you keep a good bat in the line-up with the DH and also keep him from hurting your team on the field. Most people in baseball would consider that positive.

Ortiz should not get a negative view for not being on the field. Like I have said many times, Jeter, like A-Rod, is able to take credit for playing solid SS when being consider for the reward while Ortiz get none. It's not negative or positive. Then again, people can consider it negative all they want.

Also, what's this talk about Manny? Jeter got Damon, Giambi, A-Rod, Abrue and Posada, all All-Star level players. Why is this even being brought up? Because Manny's numbers were slightly better than Ortiz while Jeter's numbers are much better than the rest of his team? A-Rod and Giambi have more HR and RBI than Jeter. A-Rod and Giambi OBP. are not far behide either. Giambi has a better OPS. than Jeter. Of course, it's quite clear that Jeter the MVP of this team regardless of such numbers. That's why I never bother bring this point up.

If you don't watch every Boston Red Sox game, then it might be hard for you understand why Ortiz would be consider an MVP. Despite all this negative talk about clutch hitting. Come back to me when you hit a walk-off 2 run HR in the 9th inning when your team down in MLB level and tell me it was easy that you could do it five times a year. Most people that play the game understand, while the rest of us can never know. Say what you will, a player deserve recognition for doing that.

Let's not forget Ortiz also leds the MLB in driving runs in to give his team to the led, too, last time I checked.

Despite that, I still consider Jeter for MVP award. Though, unlike last year, I'm quite undecided at the moment. The player who's on the team that win the division should get the reward at the moment in my book.


I would disagree with this, as would 99% of Boston fans, I figure. Regardless of numbers, MVP is about the player which lifts a team up, both in the wins column and in terms of motivation and hunger. Jeter does both those things for the Yanks; Ortiz does both those things for the Sox.
Agreed.

You know, Jeter consider over hyped by people. Though, you think the people that think he's over-hyped watch him every day or the majority of the time? I doubt it, so they can never understand what Jeter bring to table. Just like it seem people can't understand what Ortiz bring to table, every Sox fan know that, to me, it seem most people that play the game understand Ortiz's importance, too.

Like I said, the player's team that wins the AL East should receive the award. If the season ended today, I would give the reward to Jeter.

[PhilWings24]

Nobody's saying Ortiz is a bad hitter. He's one of the top 5 hitters in the majors (Pujols, ortiz, a-rod, manny, hafner). But the problem is that's all he does.

He may have a lot of desire to play the field, but hey, I have a lot of desire to hit 40 hrs for a major league team and make millions of dollars and have sex with very hot women -- but does that mean it's going to happen?

Ortiz is SO BAD defensively. You can't even watch him play. And that hutrs him a lot. For example, y ou might see that Jeter is above Ortiz both in WARP and VORP, even though Ortiz puts up monster offensive numbers. And sure, jeter isn't a gold glove shortstop, but he's decent at the position. Ortiz wouldn't be decent at ANY position. (case in point: this week he started 2 games at 1B, and his team had 5 unearned runs as a result).

You can't argue that Ortiz is the MVP of the league because he isn't even the MVP of his own team.

you're entirely missing my point about his desire to play first. jeter's defensive value simply does not put him on par with papi's offensive value. so the only way the DH argument would, theoretically, make sense is if papi was some slob who wasn't willing to play first, and wanted to spend his time relaxing. then you could say "no one with that lack of work ethic, team spirit, and leadership ability could ever be worthy of an mvp," and you'd be right. but saying "jeter, while being anywhere from a plain bad shortstop to a slightly above average shortstop, and having worse offensive numbers, is the more valuable player because joe torre has (erroneously) decided that the team has no better defensive alternatives" doesn't make sense. (and i'm pretty sure it was only 3 unearned runs, which doesn't change your point. all i have to say to that is that can happen to anyone. i don't know it for fact, but i'd be shocked if jeter hasn't cost the yankees 3 runs over 2 games at some point). and as i said before, papi would be the 3rd or 4th worst 1b in baseball, yes. but its not like he would literally never stop a ball.

he is clearly the MVP of his team. people say manny's a better hitter and is having the better year, and while that is clearly worth being said, if we're going purely by numbers, how can anyone possibly build a case jeter deserves it? like you said (or implied), then Manny should win the MVP. but as all yankee fans have repeated at the tops of their lungs for quite some time now, intangibles matter. and there's no disputing papi is oozing with intangibles. delicious, oozy, intangibles. (yes that was a joke...albeit an odd one...)

and assuming VORP/ WARP work anything like i think they do, jeter's only ahead of them because he plays shortstop, one of the weakest positions in the bigs. papi's MLV is 9.3 runs higher than jeter, and no one's convincing me that jeter's defense has already saved the yankees 9 runs hah. so while there certainly IS something to be said for the fact jeter is doing this as a shortstop, i've never understood that as part of the discussion in MVP votings (aside from the fact that defensive value enters the equation, and middle infielders are believed to be of greater defensive importance. but as i've said more than once, jeter's defensive value isn't spectacular). and while i don't know your feelings personally on the topic, i'd bet my bottom dollar that ryan howard is considered a generally better (nl) mvp candidate than chase utley.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I wouldn`t take points away from Ortiz or any other DH for DHing but you can`t refuse to credit an above average fielder for doing more than a DH does in the field. I credit a DH for doing exactly what an average fielder does. You can`t discount what a fantastic SS has done.

[ssbguyincognito]

A few points.

1. I twas 5 uneearned. I know because it was 4 unearned in one game (in one inning in fact). Actually, I think the Red Sox lost that game by 2 runs, so those 4 unearned runs were HUGE.

2. Comparing Jeter's defense to Ortiz's offense? That doesn't even make sense. The point is: Ortiz is better offensively than Jeter. Jeter is much much much better defensively than Ortiz. If we add Ortiz's offensive contribution (which is huge) to his defensive (which is 0), we get a number, say X. If we add Jeter's offensive contribution (which is large but smaller than Ortiz's) to his defensive (which is huge compared to Ortiz's), we get Y. Y>X. It's simple.

3. The Red Sox are a sabermetric team (its fans should know that). Let's look at sabermetric statistics:

VORP (value over replacement player)
Jeter 55.6
Ortiz 51.6
(note: Manny's is 52.3)

WARP2 (wins above replacement player)
Jeter 7.4
Ortiz 6.3

4. You people are missing a crucial point. You're comparing Derek Jeter's defense to the average shortstop (Jeter is a little better than normal). Then you're saying that, since Jeter's defense is not that much better than average, it shouldn't hurt Ortiz that he doesn't play defense. That's completley wrong. You need to compare Jeter's defensive contribution (which is a lot, considering he's a ss) to Ortiz's (which is zero).

5. As has been shown, Jeter has also been amazing in clutch situations. This makes the clutchness between the two roughly equal.

[mikesty]

Two mediating points:

1. Isn't Ortiz' defense actually negative??? LOL

2. Jeter is what, .333 in clutch and Ortiz is what, .300? That's cool straight up, but considering Jeter is batting .350ish and Ortiz is <.300. I guess you could say Ortiz is more impressive because he goes the extra mile.

[EvanAparra]

Yeah, how can you give Ortiz the MVP when 1) he's not even the best hitter on his own team (Manny has alwyas been better) and 2) he's not even the best DH in his own league.

Of course, Ortiz gets a lot more media atetntion than Hafner, but look at their stats.

Thankfully you dont have to be the best hitter on your team to win the Most Valuable Player, not Best Hitter. If thats the case, than A-Rod shouldnt have won last year considering everyone here considers Jeter to be the best hitter on the team. And im sorry, but just flat out saying that Hafner is the best DH in the league is wrong, their stats are pretty close in most categories, with Ortiz ahead in a couple, and Hafner ahead in a couple. But again, you dont have to be the best at your position to win the Most Valuable Player. David Ortiz's walk-off hits may not impress any of you, but to everyone that plays and/or coaches, its VERY impressive to them. I know Ortiz has been the most valuable player to the Red Sox this year, even more than Manny. And before reading this thread, i thought he was a lock, but ive realized Jeter is incredibly valuable as well. I think both are equally qualified for the award.

p.s. why must yankee fans insist that Jeter is a good defensive SS when all numbers point to him being at the bottom of the league.

[ssbguyincognito]

This is why I value stats. You "know" ortiz is the most valuable player on his team. But that's just an inherent human bias. Whereas, if we can quantify a player's value to his team (like VORP and WARP do), we can get away from the natural bias and just plug the formula and see who comes out ahead... and Jeter does.

Manny is more valuable to his team than Ortiz. It's true.

Another point: this year, A-rod is having a bad season and Jeter an amazing one (both offense and defense). Last year, a-rod had one of the greatest seasons ever by a 3B, or by a Yankee. The MVP is an annual award. So last year A-rod was a better hitter than Jeter. This year, Jeter is better. Bringing up last year is meaningless.

[PhilWings24]

This is why I value stats. You "know" ortiz is the most valuable player on his team. But that's just an inherent human bias. Whereas, if we can quantify a player's value to his team (like VORP and WARP do), we can get away from the natural bias and just plug the formula and see who comes out ahead... and Jeter does.

Manny is more valuable to his team than Ortiz. It's true.

Another point: this year, A-rod is having a bad season and Jeter an amazing one (both offense and defense). Last year, a-rod had one of the greatest seasons ever by a 3B, or by a Yankee. The MVP is an annual award. So last year A-rod was a better hitter than Jeter. This year, Jeter is better. Bringing up last year is meaningless.

this is absolutely true in situations when there is a statistic that is applicable to a situation. manny has repeated time and time again that the pressure of boston gets to him, that he wants to play somewhere where he isn't such a big deal to everybody. since papi came along, people pay less and less attention to manny. manny's also been whining alot less. what's that worth? who knows, i know i don't.

secondly, VORP and WARP compare a player to replacement-level players of his position. so basically you are comparing jeter's offensive output to that of a normal shortstop, and his defensive value to that of an average player.

it, intuitively, makes most sense to me to compare a player's offensive output to that of an average player, and defense to that of an average player at his position. because everybody has to hit, only shortstops have to play shortstop. hitting is the same for everybody (yes some hit for power, some for average, but the motion is the same), fielding is different at every position. picture ivan rodriguez playing shortstop, or andres gallaraga playing center.

and your point #2 was strange to me...you told me what i did made no sense, and then you did the same thing...anyway, if you compare papi's offensive output to that of an average player (MLV, a sabr stat) verse that of jeter, papi's got something like 9 runs on him. jeter has not saved 9 more runs than the average shortstop. if he is really having the outstanding defensive year people say he is (despite the fact that i personally have not seen a single stat that ranks him well), he might save 9 by years end. but he hasn't yet. therefore if papi's offensive output A is 40, his defensive output B is 0, Jeters offensive output X is 31, defensive output Y is <9, then A+B>X+Y. like you said, its simple.

now that's how i have always thought of a player's chances in the MVP race. offensive value+defensive value compared to other players of his position. i don't even know how i would compare the defensive value of one player at a position to that of an average MLB player at any position. i know you have no way of knowing that, but to me, Ryan Howard is the Phillies (my hometeam, so i root for them passively) MVP, not chase utley.

if you decide by figuring someone's defensive value for their position+offensive value for their position, there's nothing wrong about that, in fact it might make more sense than the way i do it, but its never how i've thought of it.

[ssbguyincognito]

I don't understand the persistent need to compare Jeter's defense to an average shortstop and say that since it's not that much better, you can't fault Ortiz.

In fact, I think someone said that Jeter's defensive rating is 101 (the average is 100), and Ortiz's would be 100 (since he's just an average defensive DH), so there's no difference between the two!

That's a little like saying my defense is average compared to fans who don't play, so my rating would be a 100. Now Jeter's is only 101. Therefore, when you compare me and Jeter defensively, we're about the same.

We need to compare Jeter's defense to that of Ortiz's. I'm sure everyone can agree that in terms of runs saved on defense, Jeter is much much higher than Ortiz (who is zero).

Why do you think the sabermetric stats (VORP, WARP) all rank Ortiz lower than you would expect? Because he's not playing half the game! It's very easy to hit so well in late innings when all you do is eat cookies in the dugout the entire game. Believe it or not, playing defense for 3 hours a day is very very tiring, especially if you play infield, where you have to mentally concentrate on every pitch.

BTW, in their tenures in Boston, Manny has put up much better numbers than Ortiz. In fact, Ortiz's best year of his career (last year) is under Manny's career averages.

[EvanAparra]

BTW, in their tenures in Boston, Manny has put up much better numbers than Ortiz. In fact, Ortiz's best year of his career (last year) is under Manny's career averages.

2003: Manny - .325/.427/.587 37 HR, 130 RBI
2003: Oritz - .288/.369/.592 31 HR, 101 RBI

2004: Manny - .308/.397/.613 43 HR, 130 RBI
2004: Ortiz - .301/.380/.603 41 HR, 139 RBI

2005: Manny - .292/.388/.594 45 HR, 144 RBI
2005: Ortiz - .301/.397/.604 47 HR, 148 RBI

Manny put up way better numbers in 03, Ortiz's first year, than they were pretty similar, but Manny's still better, than last year Ortiz had better numbers than Manny did.

This year, Manny has better OBP and Avg but Ortiz has a higher Slug, HR, and RBI. Not to mention Ortiz's 5 walk-off hits, which since theres no stat that measures how truely big those are, people in this forum dont give him much credit for, even though he deserves it.

Im looking for these much better numbers, because the difference between them seems pretty miniscule now. Plus, Ortiz and Hafner also have very similar numbers, although he hit 14 more HR and 40 more RBI last year and is leading all of MLB in both those categories this year. Everyone here just says Hafner is a better DH because he plays in Cleveland and not in Boston. And BTW, I wonder what Ortiz's BA and OBP would be if there was no shift....

[ssbguyincognito]

Let's stop looking at HRs and RBIs for two reasons: 1) they are stupid stats which focus on a specific aspect of the game that may or may not be skill-dependent, and 2) the difference between Manny and Ortiz in terms of HRs or RBIs is so small as to be insignificant.

With that in mind, we see that Manny was much better in 2003. Then, in 2004, his OBP was 20 points higher and his slugging 10 points higher. In 2005, Ortiz had the better year, but in 2006, Manny has been better.

Also, walkoff hits. I can argue that the reason Ortiz gets pitched to in late situations is that Manny protects him. Therefore, part of the reason Ortiz gets walkoff hits is Manny Ramirez!

When we compare two players, we want to compare aspects of their game which are dependent only upon their skill, and not other factors like position in the lineup, runners on when they bat, etc... If we do that, and compare things like VORP and WARP, we'll see that Manny is more important than Ortiz, and that Jeter is more important than Ortiz.

[Evangelion]

Also, walkoff hits. I can argue that the reason Ortiz gets pitched to in late situations is that Manny protects him. Therefore, part of the reason Ortiz gets walkoff hits is Manny Ramirez!
We would be saying that about every player that has a walk-off hit with a good player after them, including Jeter, if they got a walk-off. Do people constantly need to look for a reason to discredit Ortiz's walk-off hits?


When we compare two players, we want to compare aspects of their game which are dependent only upon their skill, and not other factors like position in the lineup, runners on when they bat, etc... If we do that, and compare things like VORP and WARP, we'll see that Manny is more important than Ortiz, and that Jeter is more important than Ortiz.
Consider you're still just looking at numbers to consider a player's importance, you basically doing the same exact thing as people that look at HR and RBI to judge a player's importance. Just using difference statistics you consider more important, which doesn't change the fact you're just looking at numbers and nothing more.

You tell the Boston Red Sox team Manny more important than Ortiz I wonder what kind of reply you'll get. Numbers do play a part in determine how valuable a player is to a baseball team, but it's not the lone factor, especially if you're going to use statistics like VORP and WARP.

People that play the game know how important Ortiz is to his team, his own team know this and people not looking at statistics alone know that as well.

[EvanAparra]

HR and RBIs are stupid stats?? Are you kidding me?? Everyone has fallen in love with these things like VORP a little too much.... RBI isnt just dependant on the basis of how many people are on base for you, but how many of those you bring in. If HR arent important to you, than id like to see your reaction to a HR and your reaction to a single and see if they are the same thing. Like the guy above me said, you are just relying on stats that are important to you.

And by the way, David Ortiz has been voted the Most Valuable Player for the Red Sox for the last three years, above Manny Ramirez, by the people in the organization, and by the fans. I think you have some illusion that whoever has the highest VORP should be MVP, like thats the only thing that should be considered.

[PhilWings24]

I don't understand the persistent need to compare Jeter's defense to an average shortstop and say that since it's not that much better, you can't fault Ortiz.

In fact, I think someone said that Jeter's defensive rating is 101 (the average is 100), and Ortiz's would be 100 (since he's just an average defensive DH), so there's no difference between the two!

That's a little like saying my defense is average compared to fans who don't play, so my rating would be a 100. Now Jeter's is only 101. Therefore, when you compare me and Jeter defensively, we're about the same.

We need to compare Jeter's defense to that of Ortiz's. I'm sure everyone can agree that in terms of runs saved on defense, Jeter is much much higher than Ortiz (who is zero).

Why do you think the sabermetric stats (VORP, WARP) all rank Ortiz lower than you would expect? Because he's not playing half the game! It's very easy to hit so well in late innings when all you do is eat cookies in the dugout the entire game. Believe it or not, playing defense for 3 hours a day is very very tiring, especially if you play infield, where you have to mentally concentrate on every pitch.

BTW, in their tenures in Boston, Manny has put up much better numbers than Ortiz. In fact, Ortiz's best year of his career (last year) is under Manny's career averages.

a rating of 101 means you saved one run. a rating of 100 means you're a wash. therefore, jeter has saved one more run than papi, and produced 11.6 fewer. again, its really not that tough:
-jeter jas produced 30.4 runs over the average player, and has saved 1. his overall worth is 31.4 runs.
-papi has produced 42.0 runs, and has saved zero. his overall worth is 42 runs. 42>31.4

and you're joke about your value as a fan is right on the money. how many runs have you cost the yankees? none. how many have you saved? none. how many has jeter saved? one. he's saved one more run than you. his defensive value has been one run greater than yours this year. his defensive skill, i assume, is infinitely greater. but it is most valuable player, not most skilled. so to recap: he has saved the yankees one more run this year than you. exactly.

in other words...

you said it yourself, the value of stats: jeter has saved one run. papi has saved none. jeter has saved one more run than papi. that's it. we can speculate what papi would do if he was in the field, but its irrelevant. just as we can speculate what you would've done in the field, but is irrelevant. jeter's defensive value this year is one run greater than papi's. simple.

that leads to my next point...

i can tell you exactly why papi is ranked lower than you'd expect, and in fact i already have. he is being compared to other 1st basemen. the stiffest competition of any position in baseball. jeter is being compared to shortstops, which is probably the 2nd weakest position (behind catchers, and i assume ahead of 2nd basemen, but maybe not).

and i don't want to just repeat what i said in my last post; because there is something to be said for the fact that jeter is a better SS than papi is a 1B, but i personally have always approached the MVP voting as Total Runs Produced+Total Runs Prevented, not Total Runs Produced vs. Others of One's Position + Total Runs Prevented vs. Others of One's Position.

and playing DH doesn't necesarily help your offense, in fact every study i've seen has proven the contrary. but i'll be the first to admit that i think those studies missed a big point (most days, the DH is an every-day-psotion player getting a half-day off, and isn't as into the game as he usually is, and it worsens his offense. i bet you would find every day DHes tend to do worse when asked to play the field, but i have never seen it proven). so there was really no need to say this lol, but people tend to take it for granted more than they should.

and my last point: RBI's are dumb. calling them useless is a huge overstatement though. has it occured to you that papi's ability to hit doubles, HR, and get on base in general gives manny more chances for RBI's and makes him more likely to get pitched to (papi walks to load the bases, or homers to clear them, manny's gonna see more pitches to hit. not nearly the effect manny has on papi, to be sure, but if you're gonna hold manny against papi, you need to hold papi against manny to some degree). and Homeruns, while one aspect of the game, is not a misleading stat in the least. it might be overvalued by the surviving Triple Crown fans there are, but all other things being equal, the best HR hitter in the game is more valuable than the best triple, double, or single hitter in the game. again, all other things being equal.

[ssbguyincognito]

We would be saying that about every player that has a walk-off hit with a good player after them, including Jeter, if they got a walk-off. Do people constantly need to look for a reason to discredit Ortiz's walk-off hits?

You're missing the point. Nobody is discrediting Ortiz's walkoff hits. But we're comparing Ortiz to Manny. So if Ortiz's walkoff hits are a function of Manny, then its stupid to say that Ortiz gets more walkoff hits than Manny. When we want to compare two players, we want to compare them based on skill and equalize all other variables.


Consider you're still just looking at numbers to consider a player's importance, you basically doing the same exact thing as people that look at HR and RBI to judge a player's importance.

Except there's a fundamental difference. I didn't say that the methodology of comparing players with numbers is wrong (in fact, it's exactly what I'm doing). I said that choosing numbers like HRs and RBIs is wrong when using that methodology.

You're assuming that all numbers are of equal value; this is blatantly untrue. For example, correlation tests have shown that a player's OBP is more indicative of how many runs he provides his team than his batting average. So if we compare two players's OBP, we can get a better idea of who is better offensively than if we compare their batting averages.

Similiarly, if we choose a stat like HRs, what does that tell us? Well, a 40 HR season from a DH/1B is not that impressive. A 40 HR season from a shortstop is historic. By solely comparing HRs, you ignore so many aspects of the game that you have effectively lost the ability to compare players. Would anyone argue, for instance, than Andruw Jones was a better hitter than Albert Pujols last year because he hit 52 hrs compared to Pujol's 41?

Another stupid statistic is RBIs, because they are largely a function of two things which are NOT skill based: 1) position in lineup, 2) talent of people who bat in front of you. Put Ortiz on the Royals, and he won't get the 140 RBI seasons that he's getting, even though he'd be the same player. For example, last year Matsui got 116 RBIs, and I believe Pujols got less than that. Can I concldue Matsui is a better hitter?

There are good numbers to compare players because these numbers equalize the other variables (and account for position) and as a result only compare two player's skills. The most basic of these is OPS, although it does not account for position. We'd see, from last year, that Pujol's OPS was higher than both Jones or Matsui. Better ones are VORP and WARP2 (WARP2 being my favorite). These account for position.

[EvanAparra]

You're missing the point. Nobody is discrediting Ortiz's walkoff hits. But we're comparing Ortiz to Manny. So if Ortiz's walkoff hits are a function of Manny, then its stupid to say that Ortiz gets more walkoff hits than Manny.

Another stupid statistic is RBIs, because they are largely a function of two things which are NOT skill based: 1) position in lineup, 2) talent of people who bat in front of you. Put Ortiz on the Royals, and he won't get the 140 RBI seasons that he's getting, even though he'd be the same player. For example, last year Matsui got 116 RBIs, and I believe Pujols got less than that. Can I concldue Matsui is a better hitter?

1. You are discrediting Ortiz's walk off hits by saying that they are a function on Manny. How is Manny helping? I just dont get it. Manny is in the on derk circle, not telling Ortiz what pitch is coming, or hitting the ball for him. You could say he gets a chance to hit because manny is next in the lineup, but that doesnt make it any easier to actually get the hit, just because he gets pitched to, doesnt automatically mean hes going to get the hit, as most dont. And how is it stupid to say Ortiz gets more walk off hits than Manny, WHEN HE DOES. Of course they would pitch around ortiz more if manny wasnt behind him, but again, its not like pitchers are throwing watermelons to ortiz because Manny is up next. If anything he is pitched to more carefully.

2. Your assesment about RBIs is flat out stupid. You say ALL rbis are is where you are in the lineup and how talented the people in front of you are. So you are saying that ANYONE Ortiz's spot in the Red Sox lineup would have 140+ RBIs. Ok, lets put Nick Markakis there and see if he hits 140 RBI, or lets put Hank Blalock there, do you really think either of those guys would hit 140 rbis the last two seasons, or have 110 so far this year??? Of course RBIs alone dont make the better player, as your Matsui arguement above says, but it does play a part, just like every other stat, including HR does.

By the way, Matsui did not have more RBI than Pujols last year.

[Sliding Billy]

a rating of 101 means you saved one run. a rating of 100 means you're a wash....

you said it yourself, the value of stats: jeter has saved one run. papi has saved none. jeter has saved one more run than papi. that's it. we can speculate what papi would do if he was in the field, but its irrelevant. just as we can speculate what you would've done in the field, but is irrelevant. jeter's defensive value this year is one run greater than papi's. simple.

Not exactly. What you call a "wash" is not without value.

No one spots you an automatic 100 at shortstop to start off. A team can't just say, "We're not going to play anyone at short. We'll just accept the league average," or "We're not going to bother with a third starter this year; we'll just take a .500 for those games." To paraphrase Bill James, even for a player whose 50% above average, two thirds of the value is in being average.

If Jeter's fielding is only 10 runs better than that of a replacement-level fielder (which might be hard to find at shortstop), then I can see your point.

[PhilWings24]

You're missing the point. Nobody is discrediting Ortiz's walkoff hits. But we're comparing Ortiz to Manny. So if Ortiz's walkoff hits are a function of Manny, then its stupid to say that Ortiz gets more walkoff hits than Manny. When we want to compare two players, we want to compare them based on skill and equalize all other variables.



Except there's a fundamental difference. I didn't say that the methodology of comparing players with numbers is wrong (in fact, it's exactly what I'm doing). I said that choosing numbers like HRs and RBIs is wrong when using that methodology.

You're assuming that all numbers are of equal value; this is blatantly untrue. For example, correlation tests have shown that a player's OBP is more indicative of how many runs he provides his team than his batting average. So if we compare two players's OBP, we can get a better idea of who is better offensively than if we compare their batting averages.

Similiarly, if we choose a stat like HRs, what does that tell us? Well, a 40 HR season from a DH/1B is not that impressive. A 40 HR season from a shortstop is historic. By solely comparing HRs, you ignore so many aspects of the game that you have effectively lost the ability to compare players. Would anyone argue, for instance, than Andruw Jones was a better hitter than Albert Pujols last year because he hit 52 hrs compared to Pujol's 41?

Another stupid statistic is RBIs, because they are largely a function of two things which are NOT skill based: 1) position in lineup, 2) talent of people who bat in front of you. Put Ortiz on the Royals, and he won't get the 140 RBI seasons that he's getting, even though he'd be the same player. For example, last year Matsui got 116 RBIs, and I believe Pujols got less than that. Can I concldue Matsui is a better hitter?

There are good numbers to compare players because these numbers equalize the other variables (and account for position) and as a result only compare two player's skills. The most basic of these is OPS, although it does not account for position. We'd see, from last year, that Pujol's OPS was higher than both Jones or Matsui. Better ones are VORP and WARP2 (WARP2 being my favorite). These account for position.

the fist bold-worthy comment is nitpicking, and i'd bet it was just a choice of words by you, and that you didn't necesarily mean it, but i wanted to just restate that it's most valuable, not most skilled, not best. i'm sure you realize that, but i just wanted to make sure. (might be the most poorly written sentence i've been associated with since i was 6)

the part about the homeruns is true. however, its important to remember that HR is an important aspect of a players game, albeit only one aspect. so while HR should never be the start and end of an MVP argument, its a bit of a stretch to say they're worthless, and should not be valued. i say the same thing about RBI's, although it is much more fair to just count them as a wash. there are specific styles that lend themselves to raking in RBIs, and some that don't, but RBI is much more a product of luck than many people realize it is.

and i'm gonna repeat myself yet again; this might be a difference in philosophy between you and i, in which case we could agree to disagree, but to me it comes down to this:

1) Jeter is a much better shortstop than Papi is a DH. making jeter more irreplaceable.
2) Papi, however, is much better compared to the average major leaguer than jeter is.

so it would be perfectly valid to say "finding a replacement for jeter would be much harder than finding one for papi, making jeter the more valuable player of the two." however, i personally have never thought of it like that. to me, that's (sort of) like saying Dave Roberts was as strong a candidate the 04 ALCS MVP as papi was, cus if you take either of them away, the sox are equally as dead. so in MVP discussions, i've always taken the simple attitude of a players total worth, both defensively and offensively, and have never considered the player's position. his position comes into play somewhat when discussing defense, but i never put it into the offensive equation. maybe i should. but i've always just gone by total value, not by total value compared to others of his position. and papi's winning the total value race fairly handily.

[PhilWings24]

Not exactly. What you call a "wash" is not without value.

No one spots you an automatic 100 at shortstop to start off. A team can't just say, "We're not going to play anyone at short. We'll just accept the league average," or "We're not going to bother with a third starter this year; we'll just take a .500 for those games." To paraphrase Bill James, even for a player whose 50% above average, two thirds of the value is in being average.

If Jeter's fielding is only 10 runs better than that of a replacement-level fielder (which might be hard to find at shortstop), then I can see your point.

unless i'm missing something though... isn't a shortstop who saves one run worth one defensive run?

if i understand you correctly, you're saying the fact that he can play shortstop at the major league level inherently increases his defensive value? again i might be way off (n sorry if i'm missing something simple, i'm brand new to the world of sabermetrics, all things considered)

to me, that would seem applicable to an argument of skill or talent, but not value. if jeter saves one run playing the toughest position in baseball, he still saved one run. at least thats what it seems to me. if papi saves 0 runs watching, he still saved zero runs. if i saved zero runs discussing this, i still saved zero runs. isn't the difference in value only one run?

(and it wouldn't be too tough to find a replacement level fielder on the yankees, seeing as they have a-rod playing a couple feet away from him, though i know thats not exactly what you meant)

[ssbguyincognito]

1. You are discrediting Ortiz's walk off hits by saying that they are a function on Manny. How is Manny helping?

OK. Walkoff hits are definetly a function of Ortiz's ability. But they're also a function of: 1) how good his team is, 2) the people in front of him who get on base, 3) his protection in the lineup, 4) the fact he bats 4th and therefore tends to bat in the 9th inning. So if you compare two players' walkoff hits, you're comparing a lot more than just their skill/talent.

Ortiz has to get pitched to in such situations (like runner on 2nd, 1 out) because pitchers know that Manny -- the better hitter -- is behind him. A-rod has no such protection (Posada vs Manny batting behind you?)

You made a good point in saying that another player, such as Hank Blalock, would certainly not good 140 rbis if he bats in Ortiz's position. But you missed two important points as well:

1) If we compare Blalock's OPS to Ortiz's, we'd probably find that Ortiz's is 150+ ponits higher. If we compared their VORP or WARP, Ortiz would also be much higher. So we don't even need to use RBIs as a comparison, we can use the other, more important stats and arrive at the same conclusion.

2) However, there are situations in which we can't use RBIs but can use VORP or WARP -- such as comparing playes of close talent (who's better: Manny or Ortiz?) So the bottom line is, stick with VORP/WARP/OPS/Runs created/EQA...

3) If the difference in RBIs is huge, then yes, you can conclude Ortiz is better. For example, Ortiz's 140 RBIs means he's definetly better than someone who gets, say, 80. But can we conclude hte same thing for another player who gets 120? Or even 110? The problem with stats like RBIs and batting average is they only work when comparing two players with HUGE differences -- for example, a 300 batter will be better than a 240 batter. But a 300 batter versus a 285? Or a 320 versus a 290? Doesn't tell us anything.

[Mariano_Rivera]

HR and RBIs are stupid stats?? Are you kidding me?? Everyone has fallen in love with these things like VORP a little too much.... RBI isnt just dependant on the basis of how many people are on base for you, but how many of those you bring in. If HR arent important to you, than id like to see your reaction to a HR and your reaction to a single and see if they are the same thing. Like the guy above me said, you are just relying on stats that are important to you.

And by the way, David Ortiz has been voted the Most Valuable Player for the Red Sox for the last three years, above Manny Ramirez, by the people in the organization, and by the fans. I think you have some illusion that whoever has the highest VORP should be MVP, like thats the only thing that should be considered.

RBI's/RBI are ridiculous. They can show you how good a player is but it is a horrible measuring stick. It can`t really help you muh when measuring a player and shouldn`t even be discussed in conversations about MVP. HR can`t show you how good a player is very well but it can show you what kind of player you are as well.

[EvanAparra]

HR cant show you how good a player is??? so i guess Mays 660 wasnt indicative of how good he was? or Aarons 755? or mannys 460 something?

RBIs also show how many times you helped your team WIN GAMES. If David Wright has a 2-5, 5 RBI game, you want to tell me that the RBIs are meaningless, or that Lo Duca had a game that was just as good because he got on base 3 times in stead of 2 like Wright? Or because his average that game was .600 instead of wrights .400. The player with the most RBIs in a given game, in my opinion, probably had the most to do with winning that game (offensively). Not to take away from the lead-off guys who deserve credit too, but RBIs win games, and thats another thing people have forgotten, a player that helps a team win games, such as Ortiz does, is a big part of the MVP award.

Walk-offs literally win games, im not saying that ortiz is more talented than manny or is more skilled, just that Manny has nothing to do with Ortiz thinking that a slider is coming, or having a good eye, or actually hitting the ball over the fence. Manny helps ortiz get chances, by being his protection, because obviously if ortiz was in KC they would just pitch around him, but its rediculous that you guys take that away from the fact that HE hit it himself, with no help, from anyone. Just because someone else gives him an opportunity doesnt mean that it was done for him.

And ortiz does not bat 4th. he hasnt since 2004.

And

[Mariano_Rivera]

HR cant show you how good a player is??? so i guess Mays 660 wasnt indicative of how good he was? or Aarons 755? or mannys 460 something?

RBIs also show how many times you helped your team WIN GAMES. If David Wright has a 2-5, 5 RBI game, you want to tell me that the RBIs are meaningless, or that Lo Duca had a game that was just as good because he got on base 3 times in stead of 2 like Wright? Or because his average that game was .600 instead of wrights .400. The player with the most RBIs in a given game, in my opinion, probably had the most to do with winning that game (offensively). Not to take away from the lead-off guys who deserve credit too, but RBIs win games, and thats another thing people have forgotten, a player that helps a team win games, such as Ortiz does, is a big part of the MVP award.

Walk-offs literally win games, im not saying that ortiz is more talented than manny or is more skilled, just that Manny has nothing to do with Ortiz thinking that a slider is coming, or having a good eye, or actually hitting the ball over the fence. Manny helps ortiz get chances, by being his protection, because obviously if ortiz was in KC they would just pitch around him, but its rediculous that you guys take that away from the fact that HE hit it himself, with no help, from anyone. Just because someone else gives him an opportunity doesnt mean that it was done for him.

And ortiz does not bat 4th. he hasnt since 2004.

And
No the HR themselves don`t show that he is a good hitter. His WARP 3, VORP, OBP, SLG % and Rate 2 show that he is a good player. The HR showed what kind of player he is.

Actually I believe Lo Duca did do better

[Sliding Billy]

unless i'm missing something though... isn't a shortstop who saves one run worth one defensive run?

if i understand you correctly, you're saying the fact that he can play shortstop at the major league level inherently increases his defensive value? again i might be way off (n sorry if i'm missing something simple, i'm brand new to the world of sabermetrics, all things considered)

to me, that would seem applicable to an argument of skill or talent, but not value. if jeter saves one run playing the toughest position in baseball, he still saved one run. at least thats what it seems to me. if papi saves 0 runs watching, he still saved zero runs. if i saved zero runs discussing this, i still saved zero runs. isn't the difference in value only one run?

(and it wouldn't be too tough to find a replacement level fielder on the yankees, seeing as they have a-rod playing a couple feet away from him, though i know thats not exactly what you meant)
First, let me take back whatever I said about whether or not Jeter had 10 runs on a replacement shortstop. I just wasn't thinking.

"Save a run" has a special meaning: being good enough defensively that your team allows 1 run less than it would with an average shortstop over a given interval. But an average shortstop is not a defensive nullity. A player with a 99 defensive score isn't worse than nothing, like soccer player who kicks the ball in the wrong goal. Just a little below average, and plenty valuable. Ortiz, on the other hand, has almost no defensive value at all, a true zero, while Jeter has 101 units worth of defensive shortstop value.

If I understand your argument correctly (and I wouldn't count on it :)), you're saying in effect that a DH with Jeter's offensive numbers is just as valuable as Jeter himself, that the Yankees don't actually gain anything by playing him at short instead of DHing him, or that it would be reasonable to trade him for a comparably hitting DH. Wouldn't that follow?

[EvanAparra]

Actually I believe Lo Duca did do better

Thats rediculous. :confused:

and i didnt say home runs themselves define the player, i said they play a part.

[538280]

No the HR themselves don`t show that he is a good hitter. His WARP 3, VORP, OBP, SLG % and Rate 2 show that he is a good player. The HR showed what kind of player he is.

Actually I believe Lo Duca did do better

I'm one of the most sabermetric members around here, but this is ridiclous. Can you tell us how WARP3, VORP, and Rate 2 are calculated? BP doesn't tell us, and for that reason I would have a hard time putting any stock in anything of theirs.

Also, Rate2 compares a player to the average player at his position. It is important to remember the difficulty of each position. An average fielding SS has more defensive value than a great fielding 1B, that is just how fielding value works. The better defensive players play the toughest defensive positions. Rate2 will not tell you this.

[EvanAparra]

yeah, id like to know how these are calculated also. people put too much faith in these stats.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I'm one of the most sabermetric members around here, but this is ridiclous. Can you tell us how WARP3, VORP, and Rate 2 are calculated? BP doesn't tell us, and for that reason I would have a hard time putting any stock in anything of theirs.

Also, Rate2 compares a player to the average player at his position. It is important to remember the difficulty of each position. An average fielding SS has more defensive value than a great fielding 1B, that is just how fielding value works. The better defensive players play the toughest defensive positions. Rate2 will not tell you this.
Good point, you misunderstand me. I meant home runs are 1 dimensional.

[538280]

Good point, you misunderstand me. I meant home runs are 1 dimensional.

I agree with you there. You can hit a lot of HRs and not really be an extremely valuable hitter. Dave Kingman would be an example. It just sounded as if you were saying WARP3 and such should be the be all end all in player evaluation. I personally have trouble putting any stock whatsoever in those measures when there is no explanation for how they are derived. And I question how anyone can put that validity in them.

[ssbguyincognito]

HR cant show you how good a player is??? so i guess Mays 660 wasnt indicative of how good he was? or Aarons 755? or mannys 460 something?

RBIs also show how many times you helped your team WIN GAMES. If David Wright has a 2-5, 5 RBI game, you want to tell me that the RBIs are meaningless, or that Lo Duca had a game that was just as good because he got on base 3 times in stead of 2 like Wright? Or because his average that game was .600 instead of wrights .400. The player with the most RBIs in a given game, in my opinion, probably had the most to do with winning that game (offensively). Not to take away from the lead-off guys who deserve credit too, but RBIs win games, and thats another thing people have forgotten, a player that helps a team win games, such as Ortiz does, is a big part of the MVP award.

Walk-offs literally win games, im not saying that ortiz is more talented than manny or is more skilled, just that Manny has nothing to do with Ortiz thinking that a slider is coming, or having a good eye, or actually hitting the ball over the fence. Manny helps ortiz get chances, by being his protection, because obviously if ortiz was in KC they would just pitch around him, but its rediculous that you guys take that away from the fact that HE hit it himself, with no help, from anyone. Just because someone else gives him an opportunity doesnt mean that it was done for him.

And ortiz does not bat 4th. he hasnt since 2004.

And

This is one of the biggest misconceptions I've seen when people like to talk about HRs or batting average. I'll argue that batting average is a relatively meaningless stat, and someone will respond "You mean Ted William's batting 400 is meaningless?"

In this situation, you're picking the top HR hitters in history -- Mays, Aaron, Ruth. How many baseball players reach this level? Say you're a GM of a team. How often do you get to choose to evaluate a player of this talent?

The far, far more probable situation is when you evaluate talent of players who aren't eight standard deviations above the mean, and in this situation, which makes up more than 99% of all situations, HRs tell you nothing ALONE. The same holds true for batting average.

Last year, Damon hit 317, and A-rod had 321. Based on this alone, what does this tell you about how they are offensively? Nothing -- A-rod was much better offensively. Now if we compare their OPS, we'd see A-rod's at 1+ and Damon's at 830. That tells you a lot.

The problem with HRs and batting average and RBIs is:

1) they don't work for players that are close to each other. If player A hits 40 hrs last year and player B hits 35, is player A better? Not necessarily. If player A has an OPS of 950 and player B an OPS of 875, is player A better? Definetly.

2) they don't account for position. A 1B/DH hitting 40 HRs is a good season. A shortstop hitting 40 HRs is a historic season.

3) they only evaluate a player if their stats are either way above the mean or way below the mean. For example, we know that a player who hits 50 Hrs in a season is always going to be good, and a player who hits 5 is going to suck. But these are the extremes, which are far above or below the mean. A player who hits 30 Hrs? 35? 37? 23? 26? We can't conclude ANYTHING from these numbers. The same is true for batting average -- no-one who bats .372 in a season will ever suck. But how many people do this? Maybe three a decade? How about the usual range -- 280? 300? 290? From these alone, we can tell NOTHING about how good a player is offensively.

This is the mistake you made -- you choose the extremes, and tried to conclude something. If you have a bell curve, the natur eof the bell curve is not defined by the ends, which could be three/four standard deviations off. It's defined by the mean and one standard deviation.

[PhilWings24]

First, let me take back whatever I said about whether or not Jeter had 10 runs on a replacement shortstop. I just wasn't thinking.

"Save a run" has a special meaning: being good enough defensively that your team allows 1 run less than it would with an average shortstop over a given interval. But an average shortstop is not a defensive nullity. A player with a 99 defensive score isn't worse than nothing, like soccer player who kicks the ball in the wrong goal. Just a little below average, and plenty valuable. Ortiz, on the other hand, has almost no defensive value at all, a true zero, while Jeter has 101 units worth of defensive shortstop value.

If I understand your argument correctly (and I wouldn't count on it :)), you're saying in effect that a DH with Jeter's offensive numbers is just as valuable as Jeter himself, that the Yankees don't actually gain anything by playing him at short instead of DHing him, or that it would be reasonable to trade him for a comparably hitting DH. Wouldn't that follow?

basically that is what i'm saying, but not exactly.

if i was brian cashman, and someone offered me a trade for a player that was gauranteed to have the exact same offensive numbers as jeter, but was entirely incapable of playing the field, i'd be crazy to take that trade (jeter's ridiculous salary aside).

but the reason that's crazy is that jeter can play DH just as well as the DH can play DH, and jeter can play SS infinitely better than the DH can. jeter's ability to play shortstop, the way i think of it, is a skill, or a talent. it does not carry inherent value. same way that a-rod's ability to play shortstop has not made him a more valuable player this year--as far as i know he hasn't played a single inning at short--but it is still a big point in his favor.

i think i get your point though, and i'll need to re-examine the numbers to know for sure, but i still think my general argument is valid. that while jeter has only saved 1 more run than the average shortstop, he's saved a ton more than a ghost would have. so i think you're saying that saying jeter's 1 run above average is only worth 1 run is like saying papi's 60 rbi's above average (that's just a guess) is only worth 60 rbi's.

that said, (i'm ridiculously tired, so i might realize that this made no sense whatsoever once i wake up a little), i've been comparing papi's numbers to that of an average major leaguer (MLV is the stat i'm focusing on most), so i think its still valid to compare jeter's numbers to that of an average shortstop, which would still give papi the thumbs up.