Smokey Joe Williams thread

[baseballPAP]

Smokey Joe Williams is reputed to have been better than ole' Satch. My recent delving into the information available seems to back this up. Much like Walter Johnson, he split the gap between the deadball and liveball periods, and his career nearly mirrors Johnson.

I have recently completed my MLE projections for Williams, and if I believe my own numbers, he has to rate above Paige, and jumps into the 8 or so slot in my all time pitcher ratings. He compared pretty favorably to the Big Train....here are those numbers:
www.geocities.com/baseball_pap/williams_sj.htm

So...what do you all know about the "other" Smokey Joe?

[538280]

Certanly the available statistical evidence points to Smokey Joe being quite a bit better than Paige. It seems to me that Joe was more of the actual great pitcher, while Satch was the outspoken showman who could also pitch really well, but whose reputation was inflated through his showmanship.

[Baseball Guru]

I love Smokey Joe!

Those are interesting #'s you provide....

He once struck out 27 batters in a 12-inning 1-0 game against the Kansas City Monarchs...

[538280]

Here's the projected BBTF stats for Smokey Joe:

Smokey Joe Williams
Yr IP ERA+ W% W L WS WARP1
1910 294 118 0.584 20 15 22.1 6.2
1911 223 134 0.642 17 9 20.9 6.1
1912 290 108 0.538 18 16 18.8 5.1
1913 334 137 0.654 25 14 30.4 8.8
1914 336 154 0.703 28 12 35.5 10.5
1915 249 161 0.722 21 8 27.4 8.2
1916 351 171 0.745 31 10 41.4 12.4
1917 387 155 0.707 33 13 42.4 12.6
1918 360 182 0.768 32 10 42.9 12.9
1919 327 179 0.762 29 9 39.0 11.7
1920 295 120 0.591 21 14 24.1 6.9
1921 318 141 0.664 25 12 31.4 9.2
1922 291 164 0.728 25 9 32.9 9.8
1923 186 137 0.651 14 8 16.8 4.9
1924 232 168 0.738 20 7 26.5 7.9
1925 206 121 0.593 14 10 15.9 4.5
1926 211 142 0.667 17 8 21.2 6.2
1927 194 147 0.685 16 7 20.3 6.0
1928 155 128 0.620 11 7 13.0 3.7
1929 199 155 0.705 16 7 20.5 6.1
1930 240 111 0.553 15 13 15.9 4.4
1931 236 120 0.590 17 11 19.7 5.6
1932 176 117 0.578 12 9 13.2 3.7
Tot 6090 139 0.660 477 238 592.2 173.7

[baseballPAP]

I don't see him pitching 6000+ innings....but no matter how much I adjust the innings down, it doesn't feel right. I actually have him at more IP than they do, but with less decisions. I think thats odd. I'm planning on tinkering with Smokey a little more yet....I'd rather see his innings in the 310-330 range at his peak, and just under 300 for many of the other seasons. 330 would have been top 5 in either league in most if not all seasons....about where I think he'd belong. He might very well have been a better strikeout pitcher than anyone throwing at the time...but I still think maybe I have him with too many there as well(their figures don't list Ks?)

[Bill Burgess]

"Smokey Joe" Williams

wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Joe_Williams)

One of the greatest pitchers in baseball’s Negro Leagues, Smokey Joe Williams is one of a handful of Native Americans inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. In a career reminiscent of Nolan Ryan’s, Williams used an overpowering fastball to win untold hundreds of games and strike out thousands of opposing batters during a career spanning nearly three decades.

Although official birth records do not exist, Williams is believed to have been born on 6 April 1886 in Seguin, Texas, to an African American father and Native American mother. (His mother was reported to be a Cherokee, although this has not been confirmed.) Williams began his baseball career on the sandlots of Central Texas, where he played for teams in San Antonio and Austin from 1905-09. In 1910 Williams joined the Chicago Giants, a formidable independent team, and a year later he moved on to the New York Lincoln Giants, a premier African American team of the day, for whom he would pitch more than a decade. The Lincoln Giants compiled impressive won-lost records against other black teams and in exhibitions against “white” major leaguers. Williams is known to have faced the other standout Native American pitcher of the day, Charles “Chief” Bender, at least twice. Williams defeated Bender by scores of 2-1 in 1913 and 11-1 in 1917.

In thirty-one documented games against major league competition, Williams compiled a 22-7 record. However, two of Williams’ most impressive feats – a no-hitter against the New York Giants and a 1-0 victory over Walter Johnson, both reportedly in 1917 – have yet to be historically documented and survive only in tales passed down from generation to generation.

A tall, lean man with an extraordinary fastball, Williams claimed to have pitched five no-hit games in his career, including one against ex-teammate Dick Redding on Opening Day 1919. His decade of excellence in New York made him a well-known figure in Harlem, and he developed a reputation as a “stage door johnny” before marrying an ex-showgirl in 1922. In 1924 the Lincoln Giants released Williams because they believed that, at age thirty-eight, his best days were behind him.

In 1925 Williams signed with the Homestead Grays, a powerful Pittsburgh-based team, where he enjoyed an extraordinary late-career renaissance. On 7 August 1930 Williams pitched perhaps the greatest game in Negro Leagues history. In a night game against the renowned Kansas City Monarchs, he allowed only one hit and struck out twenty-seven batters in a 1-0, twelve inning victory. By this time Williams had become famed as the Methuselah of the Negro Leagues, an image he promoted by claiming to be fifty years old although he was really forty-four.

Williams retired from baseball in 1932, at age forty-six, after pitching for twenty-eight seasons. He found work as a bartender in New York, where he traded baseball tales with eager customers. In 1950 Williams, then in ill health, was honored before a Sunday afternoon game at the Polo Grounds. He died in New York on 25 February 1951. The next year, a Pittsburgh Courier poll of black baseball officials and sportswriters named Williams the greatest pitcher in the history of the Negro Leagues. Nearly half a century later, on 25 July 1999, he was finally inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

BIBLIOGRAPHY
Holway, John. 1988. Blackball Stars. New York: Carroll & Graf.
Lester, Larry, and Dick Clark, eds. 1994. The Negro Leagues Book. Cleveland, OH: Society for American Baseball Research.
Research Files. National Baseball Hall of Fame Library, Cooperstown, New York.
Riley, James. 1994. The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues. New York: Carroll & Graf.
Posted by John (Don't Call Me Grandma) Murphy on August 17, 2004 at 07:56 PM (#802701)
Nearly half a century later, on 25 July 1999, he was finally inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

He should have been elected into the HoF as one of the very first Negro Leaguers, IMO.
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Any possibility that the standard post-death misty-eyed treatment pushed him past Paige in the poll? Not saying he wasn't a great pitcher - he was, but this could be a reason to question the Courier's ranking of him.

In a related matter, the sentiment over Williams' death did manifest itself in another way: It started the movement to allow black players into the Hall of Fame.

Sometime in 1951, shortly after Williams died, sportswriter Joe Bostic became the first person (so far as I can tell) ever to publicly advocate for the admission of Negro Leaguers into Cooperstown.

This was followed by a gradual groundswell of support. Satchel Paige got one renegade write-in vote in the 1953 election, and continued to receive a handful per year annually after that. (Although the Hall declined to keep counting them after that first year.) Eventually this all led up to the activism of Stan Isaacs and Ted Williams, and you all know what happened after that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimated Win Shares from Baseball Think Factory for Negro Leaguers already in the BBF HOF
Smokey Joe Williams 492 career WS, 154 for best 5 consecutive, best three of 35, 34, and 33. Estimated at 377-300 record in 5100 IP

Source: Left: Baseball: The Perfect Game, ed. by Josh Leventhall, 2005, pp. 163.
Source: Right: Baseball: An Illustrated History, by Geoffrey C. Ward/Ken Burns, 1994, pp. 157.

--------------------Joe Williams---------------------------------Joe Williams-----Baseball Think Factory (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=579887&postcount=55)--BB Library bio (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Smokey_Joe_Williams_1886)
---------------Lincoln Giants, 1911-23------------------------------1911-23
---------------------------------------------------------------------1925-32
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/Image33.jpg

[baseballPAP]

Smokey updated again....less innings, but still more than anyone else ever except Young and Galvin. He still tops Johnson for #3 all time, but is very close to Walter. 390-199 in this my final(I think) projection. ERA of 2.68 would have been good for a 134 ERA+ during this era (Johnson was 146...this feels about right to me), but was drug down at the end as he stretched his career a little too long. Again...that feels about right.

Of course, all of this is just speculation, but I've done the homework for it, so at least its an educated guess at this point.

[Bench 5]

I think that the projections are overinflated. If he was 40 in 1926 I don't see how BBTF has him for 1,411 innings as a 40+ pitcher. I have his stats at home from Shades of Glory that I will post when I get home. His record in the 1920s in NL play was not very impressive. He was less than a .500 pitcher. They don't have his stats prior to 1920. Had he played in the majors he would not have pitched as long as he had in the NL. But on the front end, maybe he would have started earlier than 1910.

I also have records from boxscores from his games against major league teams that I will post later. He had an impressive record but they have been over-inflated as well. The supposed 20 K no-hitter versus the Giants and the supposed win over Walter Johnson are pure fiction in my opinion.

The 27 K 12 inning win in 1927 is phenomenal but to keep it in context that was one of the 1st night games and the lighting was terrible. It was so dark the batters could barely see the ball hence 1 run scored by both teams over 12 innings.

He is up there with other contemporaries like Johnson, Alexander, Matthewson etc. But I still have him behind Satchel Paige as the top NL pitcher.

[538280]

Bench 5-If you want to call the projections inflated that's okay I guess, but they are based off of REAL game data, not fictional myths, and they are generally considered to be VERY conservative. Here's the MLE projection for Paige, BTW (and I don't know why they're broken up, but that's how they did them:

Year Team IP W L DERA DERA+
1927 Bir 130 9.6 5.7 3.46 130
1928 Bir 232 19.9 7.4 2.74 164
1929 Bir 277 16.8 15.8 4.37 103
1930 Bir 203 15.3 8.6 3.36 134
1931 Cl/Pgh 240 14.1 14.1 4.50 100
1932 Pgh 273 18.8 13.3 3.78 119
1933 Pgh 185 12.1 9.7 4.03 112
1934 Pgh 277 20.2 12.4 3.52 128
1935 Bis 262 20.1 10.7 3.28 137
1936 Pgh 310 24.3 12.2 3.19 141
1937 S.D. 289 23.5 10.4 3.00 150
11yrs* 2678 193.1 121.9 3.56 126

1940 KC 77 6.4 2.7 2.94 153
1941 KC 223 18.4 7.7 2.94 153
1942 KC 281 15.5 17.6 4.66 94
1943 KC# 293 11.1 23.4 6.52 69
1944 KC 220 11.3 14.6 5.11 88
1945 KC 206 6.9 17.3 7.11 63
1946 KC 117 8.6 5.2 3.46 130
1947 KC 95 6.5 4.7 3.80 118
8 yrs. 1512 80.9 97.0 4.93 91

After that he pitched in the majors. His total stats, NeL and Majors, with Smokey Joe for a comparison:

Satchel: 4666 IP 302-250 .547 pct. 113 DERA+ 336 Win Shares
Smokey Joe: 6090 IP, 477-238 .660 pct. 139 ERA+ 592 Win Shares

[baseballPAP]

That is pretty conservative for Paige, and they have him being sub-par after his injury. What I have read has him coming back for 4-5 years just as good as before, but with somewhat less strikeouts as he had lost some velocity. With several examples from the period of players who did play well into their 40s, I think the only thing needed to look at was whether or not the player kept himself in good enough condition. The fact that both guys did in fact keep pitching at a high level is good enough for me. I did in both projections limit their playing time as they aged....somewhat like Jack Quinn and Ted Lyons from the same time periods.

[WJackman]

In January of 1927 Joe Williams and Bill Jackman were teammates in the Palm Beach winter league. The Philly Tribune reported 4 victories for Jackman and one for Williams.

In May of 1929 Ted Trent and Bill Jackman were teammates on the Philly Giants touring New England. Jackman was the name player/ace before Trent headed back to St. Louis.

In 1938 Johnny Taylor (who in 1937 beat Satchel Paige with a no-hitter in the Polo Grounds and Jackman in a 5-4, 20-inning contest) called Jackman a better pitcher than Paige.

Jackman said his biggest thrill in baseball was facing an intact major league squad and fanning 18. While this game has not been confirmed, a boxscore in which Jackman fanned 16 batters, 6 of which had big league time, has.

Most recent pickup was two 1931 games in which Jackman faced a "big league all-star" squad which consisted of Del Bissonette, Jack Russell, Milt Gaston, Don Brennan and Danny MacFayden. The teams split two games with Jackman tossing two complete games and the four big league pitchers splitting up the innings. The big leaguers fanned 8 in 18 innings while Jackman fanned 20 in 17 innings.

Currently Jackman's documented record is 171-60 with 62 games with 10 or more K's and a 21-3 record when the opposing starter had big league time. This total likely represents only 20-25% of Jackman's career.

I do not think it unreasonable to start adding Cannonball Bill Jackman to any discussion regarding the greatest hurlers of all time, black or white.

[DTF955]

The 27 K 12 inning win in 1927 is phenomenal but to keep it in context that was one of the 1st night games and the lighting was terrible. It was so dark the batters could barely see the ball hence 1 run scored by both teams over 12 innings.

Also, I vividly recall a Phil Niekro shutout with a low number of hits in his late '40s...let's see (checks Retrosheet) Yes, 10/6/1985, he threw a 4-hit shutout. Granted, the Blue Jays were gearingup for the playoffs, so didn't have their A squad in, but it was still very impressive, probably makes it the equivalent of that bad lighting game. And his 9/15 game, though a loss, against Toronto's A squad was also very impressive. So, Williams, like Niekro, could still come out with some occasional gems at that age, and would have in the majors, too.

There, 6/22/86, a 2-hitter, that's the one I was thinking of, but it wasn't a shutout, that's why I missed it first. And Niekro was pitching against some really good big leaguers then, the Twins, in Minnesota.

[baseballPAP]

In January of 1927 Joe Williams and Bill Jackman were teammates in the Palm Beach winter league. The Philly Tribune reported 4 victories for Jackman and one for Williams.

In May of 1929 Ted Trent and Bill Jackman were teammates on the Philly Giants touring New England. Jackman was the name player/ace before Trent headed back to St. Louis.

In 1938 Johnny Taylor (who in 1937 beat Satchel Paige with a no-hitter in the Polo Grounds and Jackman in a 5-4, 20-inning contest) called Jackman a better pitcher than Paige.

Jackman said his biggest thrill in baseball was facing an intact major league squad and fanning 18. While this game has not been confirmed, a boxscore in which Jackman fanned 16 batters, 6 of which had big league time, has.

Most recent pickup was two 1931 games in which Jackman faced a "big league all-star" squad which consisted of Del Bissonette, Jack Russell, Milt Gaston, Don Brennan and Danny MacFayden. The teams split two games with Jackman tossing two complete games and the four big league pitchers splitting up the innings. The big leaguers fanned 8 in 18 innings while Jackman fanned 20 in 17 innings.

Currently Jackman's documented record is 171-60 with 62 games with 10 or more K's and a 21-3 record when the opposing starter had big league time. This total likely represents only 20-25% of Jackman's career.

I do not think it unreasonable to start adding Cannonball Bill Jackman to any discussion regarding the greatest hurlers of all time, black or white.
I have read a little into Mr. Jackman's career...and the raw figures look pretty good. I'm very suspect of his competition however, even moreso than other NeLers. I'm eventually planning to research and project at least 15 NeL pitchers, and Jackman is definately on my short list. At this early date however, I see his projection falling somewhat short of Williams and Paige due to the lack on good competition. Even the so-called major-league all star team featured 4 pitchers I had to look up...not exactly my idea of an all star team.

Jackman career is a tough one to pinpoint for my purposes...as will be Frank Grant and some others. The data is sketchy to begin with, then I have to figure in that their best games were probably still against mid-level minor league talent.

[WJackman]

I have read a little into Mr. Jackman's career...


Really? Where did you read it?

[538280]

Was Jackman a NeL pitcher though? I've heard a little about him on this site, i think he primarily pitched for minor leagues and semi-pro teams. I always thought he was white too.

[WJackman]

Jackman was African-American. He pitched professionally from 1917 to 1953. He was born in Texas and began his career there with black teams in Dallas and Houston. He arrived in Boston in 1924 and spent the rest of his career pitching mostly for the Philadelphia (Colored) Giants (originated in Philly but mostly toured New England) and the Boston (Colored Giants), although he often hired himself out to whatever top white semi-pro team that was willing to pay him. He pitched just 1935 and then a couple of games in 1936 in the the more officially recognized Negro Leagues. At various times he was compared to Walter Johnson, G. C. Alexander, Paige, Bob Feller and even Babe Ruth. Jackman was a big guy who hit the long ball, prompting John McGraw in 1927 to declare that the biggest problem he would have managing Jackman would be the decision to pitch him in the rotation or use him every day in the outfield.

Glenn Stout, author on "Red Sox Century" expressed the opinion that Jackman was Boston's greatest baseball star between Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Jackman worked against hundreds of major league players and all the top Negro Leaguers, and virtually all raved about him, declaring him major league star timber.

[538280]

Jackman was African-American. He pitched professionally from 1917 to 1953. He was born in Texas and began his career there with black teams in Dallas and Houston. He arrived in Boston in 1924 and spent the rest of his career pitching mostly for the Philadelphia (Colored) Giants (originated in Philly but mostly toured New England) and the Boston (Colored Giants), although he often hired himself out to whatever top white semi-pro team that was willing to pay him. He pitched just 1935 and then a couple of games in 1936 in the the more officially recognized Negro Leagues. At various times he was compared to Walter Johnson, G. C. Alexander, Paige, Bob Feller and even Babe Ruth. Jackman was a big guy who hit the long ball, prompting John McGraw in 1927 to declare that the biggest problem he would have managing Jackman would be the decision to pitch him in the rotation or use him every day in the outfield.

Glenn Stout, author on "Red Sox Century" expressed the opinion that Jackman was Boston's greatest baseball star between Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Jackman worked against hundreds of major league players and all the top Negro Leaguers, and virtually all raved about him, declaring him major league star timber.

Thanks for the info. It seems like Mr. Jackman may be one of the most unknown superstars of all time.

[Bill Burgess]

Jackman was African-American. He pitched professionally from 1917 to 1953. He was born in Texas and began his career there with black teams in Dallas and Houston. He arrived in Boston in 1924 and spent the rest of his career pitching mostly for the Philadelphia (Colored) Giants (originated in Philly but mostly toured New England) and the Boston (Colored Giants), although he often hired himself out to whatever top white semi-pro team that was willing to pay him. He pitched just 1935 and then a couple of games in 1936 in the the more officially recognized Negro Leagues. At various times he was compared to Walter Johnson, G. C. Alexander, Paige, Bob Feller and even Babe Ruth. Jackman was a big guy who hit the long ball, prompting John McGraw in 1927 to declare that the biggest problem he would have managing Jackman would be the decision to pitch him in the rotation or use him every day in the outfield.

Glenn Stout, author on "Red Sox Century" expressed the opinion that Jackman was Boston's greatest baseball star between Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Jackman worked against hundreds of major league players and all the top Negro Leaguers, and virtually all raved about him, declaring him major league star timber.
Wow. Nice research. I love a content guy. I'm glad you're still with us, & you've more than proven that you're much more than just a Ferrell content expert. Again, nice job. You're a formidable historian to be reckoned with. Are you a SABR member?

Bill

[Bench 5]

Bench 5-If you want to call the projections inflated that's okay I guess, but they are based off of REAL game data, not fictional myths, and they are generally considered to be VERY conservative. Here's the MLE projection for Paige, BTW (and I don't know why they're broken up, but that's how they did them:

Ricky,

I didn't get a chance to do it last night but over the weekend I will post his stats from 1920-1932 per Shades of Glory. Looking at his record during that time period Bullet Joe Rogan and Satchel Paige both had much better totals. Granted Williams was older but I think this will illustrate that he wouldn't have been putting up the huge numbers that BBTF estimates in the 1920s and 1930s. They have him at 6,000 plus innings and 477 wins. That seems like quite a statement to make considering that nobody who started their career after 1900 topped 6,000 innings and only a few were close. The win total is inflated IMO too. His record in the Negro leagues from 1920-1932 was 30-33. Compare that to the estimated winning percentage from BBTF: 223 wins and 122 losses = .646. Big difference.
They estimate 104 wins for him in his 40s. I highly doubt that he would have been close to that figure. I think he is an all-time great and I give him all the props in the world. I suspect that had he pitched in the majors he would have put up career totals somewhere in the range of his contemporaries like Alexander, Johnson, Plank, Rixey etc. Based upon his actual stats put up in the NL I don't know how they came up with their figures.

[baseballPAP]

[QUOTE=baseballPAP]I have read a little into Mr. Jackman's career...


Really? Where did you read it?
So far, just Riley's Encyclopedia and what (very) little I've been able to find online. I'm not a SABR member, so I don't have access to some of their resources, but I'm doing what I can. Still, in the long run, his lack of time against standardized competition surely won't help his cause in any way.

[jalbright]

Jackman was African-American. He pitched professionally from 1917 to 1953. He was born in Texas and began his career there with black teams in Dallas and Houston. He arrived in Boston in 1924 and spent the rest of his career pitching mostly for the Philadelphia (Colored) Giants (originated in Philly but mostly toured New England) and the Boston (Colored Giants), although he often hired himself out to whatever top white semi-pro team that was willing to pay him. He pitched just 1935 and then a couple of games in 1936 in the the more officially recognized Negro Leagues. At various times he was compared to Walter Johnson, G. C. Alexander, Paige, Bob Feller and even Babe Ruth. Jackman was a big guy who hit the long ball, prompting John McGraw in 1927 to declare that the biggest problem he would have managing Jackman would be the decision to pitch him in the rotation or use him every day in the outfield.

Glenn Stout, author on "Red Sox Century" expressed the opinion that Jackman was Boston's greatest baseball star between Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Jackman worked against hundreds of major league players and all the top Negro Leaguers, and virtually all raved about him, declaring him major league star timber.
One thing that absolutely cannot be ignored about Jackman is that he was able to draw a crowd so long as folks knew he'd pitch. Since he wasn't doing the clowning bit, that means he must have been something to watch. Quite a testimonial, really. It doesn't resolve whether he was Nolan Ryan, Lefty Grove, or (most likely) somewhere in between, but it is an indicator he was a heck of a player. Since he was around long enough to get past that issue, I tend to think he was probably a great one. After that, though, the data I'm aware of is too sketchy and/or against too many suspect opponents to help us better assess his talent.

Jim Albright

[538280]

Ricky,

I didn't get a chance to do it last night but over the weekend I will post his stats from 1920-1932 per Shades of Glory. Looking at his record during that time period Bullet Joe Rogan and Satchel Paige both had much better totals. Granted Williams was older but I think this will illustrate that he wouldn't have been putting up the huge numbers that BBTF estimates in the 1920s and 1930s. They have him at 6,000 plus innings and 477 wins. That seems like quite a statement to make considering that nobody who started their career after 1900 topped 6,000 innings and only a few were close. The win total is inflated IMO too. His record in the Negro leagues from 1920-1932 was 30-33. Compare that to the estimated winning percentage from BBTF: 223 wins and 122 losses = .646. Big difference.
They estimate 104 wins for him in his 40s. I highly doubt that he would have been close to that figure. I think he is an all-time great and I give him all the props in the world. I suspect that had he pitched in the majors he would have put up career totals somewhere in the range of his contemporaries like Alexander, Johnson, Plank, Rixey etc. Based upon his actual stats put up in the NL I don't know how they came up with their figures.

I can't argue with the Shades of Glory data, but I'm not really familiar with it. I am familiar with these BBTF projections, and they're supposed to be the best out there right now, and extremely accurate. What does the Shades of Glory data say about Williams vs. Paige? Like I showed earlier, BBTF has Williams just curb-stomping Satchel, even on the rate stats (139 ERA+ to 113).

[jalbright]

Shades of Glory's data is not a fair comparison between Satchel and Williams, as they do not provide data before 1920. Williams was not at his best by then.

Jim Albright

[538280]

Shades of Glory's data is not a fair comparison between Satchel and Williams, as they do not provide data before 1920. Williams was not at his best by then.

Jim Albright

I was not aware of that, but nonetheless I do think Bench 5 has a point here. How can Shades of Glory have Smokey Joe being 30-33 1920 on, but BBTF has him 223-122? Seems there's a huge discrepancy going on there.

[WJackman]

Jackman did do the clowning around bit as did most of the Negro Leaguers of the time. It was show biz and Jackman was the big draw. When not pitching he coached at 3b and was known for his interactions with the paying customers. On the mound he would do things like pull out a big rabbit's foot he kept in his back pocket and rub it on the ball. He would call in his outfielders and then strike out the last batter of the inning. He would verbally challenge opposing benchs and batters. He was the show and every local newspaper announced a week ahead of time that he was to be the starting pitching. This often led to him just pitching the first or last innings of games on five or six consecutive days. He frequently drew crowds of ten to 15,000 fans in small communities all over New England.

Jackman never lacked top notch oppostion. He just did not pitch in the travelled Negro League areas so the documentation is sketchy. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means it still needs to be recovered. While the recovery stage will be time-consuming, the actual documentation is easily retrievable for the mainstream white newspapers in New England were very extensive and complimentary in the coverage of Jackman. This was the reason he stayed in New England. Just because one can't find it via a google search doen't mean it didn't happen.

So far to the tune of 285 pitching boxscores, 171-60 won lost record, 62 games with 10 or more K's and a 21-3 record versus opposing starters with big league time.


John Holway, certainly among the foremost Negro League historians, writing about Johnny Taylor in SABR's BRJ, said, "..against legendary Will Jackman, the lanky black submarine pitrcher who toured New England every year with his Colored Giants."

Robert Peterson, the man who started it all with "Only the Ball was White," said, "Jackman is not often mentioned among the select few, but there are men like Bill Yancy who consider him the best of all."

[WJackman]

I'm not really sure that many have a true understanding of the caliber of semipro baseball in the 20s and 30s. In 1927 the East Douglas, Massachusetts team of the Blackstone River Valley was considered the top semipro team in the nation. It is estimated that at least 75 players with major league experience played for the team. Former big leaguer Jean Dubuc managed the team and in 1927 employed major leaguers Tim McNamara, Bots Nekola, Haskell Billings, Shirt Smith and Wes Ferrell on his pitching staff. At the end of the 1927 season Lefty Grove was hired to work at $300 a game with a $10 bonus for each strikeout.

In 1929 Dubuc had Hank Greenberg and Gene Desaultes on his team. For big games at the end of the season, Jackman was brought in under the same pay scale that Grove had worked for two years earlier.

[jalbright]

Jackman may have been a showman, but he wasn't like the Ethiopian Clowns and their 1970's-1980's Harlem Globetrotter style ball. I mean no offense, but when it comes to play against so-called top opposition, I've learned to follow the maxim of "trust, but verify" as too many Negro league enthusiasts overstate their cases in this regard. I'd have to really go through at least a representative sample of those boxscores to be satisfied.

All that said, I await seeing more on Jackman. He's presents an intriguing case to evaluate, and I look forward to much better information to enable that to be done. My gut tells me he probably was HOF caliber, but beyond that, I lack the information for any more definitive statements.

Jim Albright

[Bench 5]

I was not aware of that, but nonetheless I do think Bench 5 has a point here. How can Shades of Glory have Smokey Joe being 30-33 1920 on, but BBTF has him 223-122? Seems there's a huge discrepancy going on there.

Shades of Glory only has stats from 1920 on for selected high profile stars. Based upon the data available Smokey Joe pitched a total of 566 innings in the Negro Leagues from 1920-1932 which spanned the ages of 34-46. BBTF estimates that he would have 2,939 innings had he played in the majors over the same period. BBTF credits him with an estimated record of 223-122 had he played in the majors over that time frame while he was actually 30-33 in the NeL. He didn't even pitch in the NeL in 1922 and 1926. I think the record shows he was a solid journeyman pitcher during this period but my guess is that he wouldn't have pitched in the majors past late 30s/early 40s. Maybe he pitched a lot in other leagues during this time period and that's why BBTF gives him such a tremendous late kick during his 30s and 40s? Since he wasn't dominant in the NeL at that age I don't see how they can project that he would dominate in the majors at that age.

For comparison, here's the stats for some of the other pitchers that pitched during this same time period. It's just a small sample but to me it shows that he was far from the best during this phase of his career. Attached are the stats over the period 1920-1932. We don't know what the league ERA is but it's apparent that other pitchers had much lower ERA's over the same span of time.

SJ Williams (1920-1932)
G - 84
ERA - 3.31
W/L - 30-33 (.476)
IP - 566
H - 561
BB - 70
K - 266
K/9 - 4.23

Satchel Paige (1927-1932)
G - 121
ERA - 2.54
W/L - 50-27 (.649)
IP - 713
H - 598
BB - 133
K - 553
K/9 - 6.98

Bullet Rogan (1920-1929)
G - 204
ERA - 2.57
W/L - 115-50 (.697)
IP - 1,433
H - 1,272
BB - 360
K - 849
K/9 - 5.33

Bill Foster (1923-1932)
G - 223
ERA - 2.43
W/L - 115-49 (.701)
IP - 1,469
H - 1,213
BB - 418
K - 881
K/9 - 5.40

Martin Dihigo (1923-1931)
G - 35
ERA - 2.90
W/L - 17-11 (.607)
IP - 226
H - 210
BB - 46
K - 100
K/9 - 3.98

As Jim says his best years were pre-1920 so this shouldn't diminish his greatness in any way.

[538280]

Thanks for the Shades of Glory data, Bench 5. It does still seem like there is a discrepancy going on with the BBTF data and the data you posted though. This is data posted on the BBTF Smokey Joe page, from John Holway, Smokey Joe 1920 on:

1920 0-3 for NY Lincoln Giants (two losses to Dick Redding; Redding pitched shutouts in both) (4 team decisions)
1921 7-1 for NY Lincoln Giants (17 team decisions); Holway all-star, George Stovey Award
1922 4-1 for NY Lincoln Giants (12 team decisions), 5.40 TRA
1923 5-4 for NY Lincoln Giants (38 team decisons)
1924 3-4 for Bkn Royal Giants (35 team decisions)
1925 2-2 for Homestead Grays (? Team decisions)
1926 1-0 for Homestead Grays (6 team decisions)
1-0 vs. major-league competition (beat AL all-star team (good team!), 6-5)
1927 2-0 for Homestead Grays (7 team decisions)
1-0 vs. major league competition (beat good AL all-star team, 5-0. Joe’s pitching was obviously good; opposing pitcher Rube Walberg was pitching his second game of the day)
1928 2-1 for Homestead Grays (13 team decisions)
1-0 vs. major-league competition (beat good AL all-star team, no box score, but Holway says he and his opponent, Rube Walberg, were “hit hard.”)
1929 8-2 for Homestead Grays (58 team decisions), 4.76 TRA
1930 7-2 for Homestead Grays (18 team decisions), 3.00 TRA
1-2 in playoff vs. Lincoln Giants (2-6, 11-3, 2-6)
1931 10-6 for Homestead Grays (65 team decisions), 2.54 TRA
0-1, 6.57 TRA in “World Series” against KC Monarchs
1932 6-2, 3.29 TRA for Homestead Grays (82 team dec)

That's supposed to be only in Negro League competition. That clearly has him being better than Shades of Glory does. It seems like there's a difference with some Negro League stats out there.

[baseballPAP]

There were PCL players who put up very good careers there in the 20s and 30s. There were players in the old Western League who had some very good careers too. They didn't play against the best of the best, and frankly, Jackman doing well against a team of former major leaguers whom are not a bit impressive as a group, does little to champion his cause IMO. It would be a little like adding in Lefty Grove's time before the majors if he were a borderline case....especially with pitchers where W-L were the most important stat of the day. The best pitchers were on the best teams, and would therefore have very good W-L records.

I appreciate your efforts Mr. Thompson, but I can't see Jackman in the same light as Paige or Williams, or several others. He might be top 10 on the "other" side of the color line, but if so its probably bottom 5.

[WJackman]

Well that is not an unreasonable view at this point as there is still a lot more data gathering to take place. The quality of oppostion will always be a question mark for any of the Negro Leaguers and I think the most important thing is to boil down all of the data and emerge with the cream of the talent. Newspapers reports say that Jackman had three seasons of 50+ victories but the best seasons I have for him have but 15-20 victories. If there truely are seasons of 50+ wins then I would hope to find at least ten of those victories against top-notch oppositiion; meaning teams made up of recognizable major and negro league names. If his currently documented 21-3 record against major league pitchers grows to four or five times that amount with the same winning percentage then baseball historians will be forced to consider Jackman among the elite. Until then much of his fame remains speculative, and at this point I am simple not ready to release all of my better boxscores and other pertinent data.

[baseballPAP]

Plenty fair enough....I wouldn't expect you to release you hard work before its ready.

Much of what I can fin regarding Jackman sees him as sort of a hired gun....like the slugger brought in as a ringer at a softball tournament. He certainly deserves some major credit for helping innovate the act that made Ole' Satch famous though.

[WJackman]

Jackman wasn't any more a hired gun then any other Negro League hurler. His base of operations team was the Philadelphia Giants and though they were not in the "Negro League," they played the recognizable teams like Hilldale, Pennsylvania Red Caps, Cuban Stars, Pop Lloyd's Lincoln Giants, Boston Tigers and the Providence Giants. The Philly Giants also appeared in NYC under the name of the Quaker Giants. All of these teams were made up of recognizable and legitimate Negro League name players. Jackman worked with and against the biggest names in the Negro Leagues. He was a teamate of Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Hank Greenberg, etc. While in New England the Giants faced intact minor league squads and major league teams that played exhibiton games on Sundays when major leagues games could not be held in Boston. People like John McGraw and Jesse Burkett were openly complimentary with their praise of Jackman, as were dozens and dozens of major league players. Most of the various "official" Negro League schedules at Jackman's peak were often only 30-40 games and the other 80-100 games they played - and the teams that guys like Paige and Williams faced - were the same caliber semipro squads that guys like Jackman faced. Jackman was a ringer or hired gun only in the same sense as guys like Paige, Williams, Dick Redding, etc. - they all played for the highest bidders in and around their Negro League starts. The all worked at times against top notch competition and at times against weak competition.


You're not going to find anything on Jackman on the internet that hasn't been put there by the same two or three people who have been researching his career.

[baseballPAP]

You're not going to find anything on Jackman on the internet that hasn't been put there by the same two or three people who have been researching his career.

Very true....definately hit the brick wall there.

[Bench 5]

That's supposed to be only in Negro League competition. That clearly has him being better than Shades of Glory does. It seems like there's a difference with some Negro League stats out there.

Holway's book has a lot of valuable information but as I read his book I noted a lot of math errors/typos/inaccuracies. For instance on page 476 of his book he lists SJ Williams with a record of 107-57 between 1910-1932. Then on the very next page he lists him with a record of 125-56 for the same time period.

I also found that his records for some games were inaccurate. His account of the games between Bob Feller and Satchel Paige differed from the account listed in a recent book I have about Bob Feller called Ace of his Generation. So I looked on ProQuest to verify which one was accurate and Holway's account was inaccurate on many of the games. I also found one of his accounts of a game between Rube Marquard and SJ Williams to be inaccurate. He lists the game as a tie whereas I found the game on ProQuest and Marquard won 3-0. His book is great but it made me question some of the data a little bit.

[WJackman]

Not that I am answering for Holway but let me talk about my Jackman database in which I have nearly 300 boxscores. Most of the boxscores are complete but some lack certain things like strikeouts, walks, hits allowed. Sometimes I will be reading one newspaper and there will be a mention like "last Tuesday Jackman fanned 13 in a game in Worcester." Now there is nothing more than that, not even a win or loss. So this of course goes into the database with hopes that I will eventually run across the game when I get to the Worcester paper. Lots of stuff like this pops up when compliling Negro League, minor league or semipro stuff. This is not an exact science like looking something up on retrosheet. I have even run across a game in a town that has two newspapers. One will say 13 strikeouts and the other might say 15. This also happens in major league games, especially when a town like Boston circa 1920 had seven or eight dalies.

[Bill Burgess]

wikipedia article below (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Joe_Williams)

Joseph Williams (April 6, 1886 - February 25, 1951), nicknamed "Cyclone Joe" or "Smokey Joe", was an American right-handed pitcher in the Negro Leagues. He is widely recognized as one of the game's greatest pitchers, even though he never played a game in the major leagues.

Williams was born in Seguin, Texas; one of his parents was African American and the other was a Comanche Indian. He grew up to become an outstanding baseball pitcher, but as his path to the major leagues was barred by the color line; Williams spent his entire 27-year career (1905-32) pitching in the Negro Leagues, Mexico, and the Caribbean.

He entered professional baseball in 1905 with the San Antonio Black Bronchos, and was an immediate star, posting records of 28-4, 15-9, 20-8, 20-2 and 32-8. After that, the Chicago Leland Giants, a team higher in the pecking order of black baseball, acquired him. In 1910, the Giants owner Frank Leland pronounced him the best pitcher in baseball, in any league.

In 1911, Williams joined the Lincoln Giants of New York, helping that club become one of the premier African-American teams of the era. When manager John Henry Lloyd departed in 1914, Williams took over as playing manager, a post he held through the 1923 season. After the Lincolns finished an ignominious fifth (out of six teams) in the Eastern Colored League's inaugural season, Williams was released in the spring of 1924. He joined the Brooklyn Royal Giants for a season, then signed with the independent Homestead Grays, where, except for a brief turn with the Detroit Wolves in 1932, he spent the rest of his career in top-level black baseball. Records are sketchy, but in 1914, Williams was credited with winning a total of 41 games against just three losses. In 1929, playing for the Grays in the American Negro League at the age of 43, Williams won 12 games and lost seven.

Although barred from the major leagues, Williams pitched many games against major-league stars in post-season barnstorming exhibitions. He proved to be as tough against them as he was against the Negro Leaguers, posting a 20-7 record in these games. Three different times, he faced the eventual National League champions. He won two of those games and lost the third, 1-0 to the 1917 New York Giants despite throwing a no-hitter.

On August 7, 1930, at age 44, he struck out 27 Kansas City Monarchs in a 1-0, 12-inning victory. That same year, he beat a younger Negro League star who was just bursting into superstardom, Leroy (Satchel) Paige, also by 1-0, in their only meeting against one another. Williams retired from baseball two years later. There was a "Smokey Joe Williams Day" at the Polo Grounds in 1950. He died at age 64 in New York City.

Considerable debate existed and still exists over whether Williams or Paige was the greatest of the Negro League pitchers. Most modern sources lean toward Paige, but in 1952, a poll taken by the Pittsburgh Courier named Williams the greatest pitcher in Negro League history.

While he has become more commonly known as "Smokey Joe," during Williams's prime in the 1910s and early 1920s he was universally known as "Cyclone" or "Cyclone Joe," sometimes appearing in box scores simply as "Cyclone."

In 1999, after extensive research on the early years of black baseball revealed his outstanding record, Williams was selected for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[Trilby]

I have been researching the life of Joe Williams for some time. Through deed records I located his childhood home in Seguin, Texas. The home was built in the 1890s, when Joe was a youngster, on property purchased by grandfather Calvin Williams in 1878. The house partially burned in the 1990s. It now sits empty, across the street from Seguin's historic Second Baptist Church, which the Williams family attended. I thought you might enjoy seeing it. You are welcome to look at some of my research at http://cyclonejoe.blogspot.com/

[Bench 5]

Mark - Welcome to the site. I learned so much about Smokey Joe from your blog and the pictures are fantastic. I did not realize that Joe's granddad was in the Civil War. It sounds like his grandfather had quite an extraordinary life.

I look forward to learning more about Smokey Joe from your research.

Eric

[Brian McKenna]

Mark - please maintain your interest in this site. Your participation is welcomed. Thanks.

[jalbright]

It's a shame that I just returned to the library (jumped through hoops of interlibrary loan to get it) Bill McNeil's new book on Negro League players playing in winter. I can't remember the exact title at this moment. Anyway, it has the first real work I've seen on the Florida Hotel league, and Joe Williams was the dominant man who worked that league. If you're into Joe Williams info, that chapter is quite useful.

[Trilby]

That is a good book -- I was lucky enough to find it under the Christmas tree this year. It's called Black Baseball Out Of Season: Pay for Play Outside the Negro Leagues.

Here is another photo I thought you would enjoy. It is of Joe's wife Beatrice, probably taken in the 1920s. It was provided by a neice of Breatrice, who currently lives in D.C.

[Bench 5]

Here's a picture of Smokey Joe from John Holway's "Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues".

Joe looks like an imposing figure from this picture. At 6'5" he must have been like facing JR Richard for the players of his time.