Ortiz hits another walk off homerun

[Astro]

Tonight David Ortiz hit a 3-run homerun to win the game over the Cleveland Indians, 9-8, in the bottom of hte 9th with 1 out

Is David Ortiz the biggest clutch hitter of our era?

[efin98]

He's the best since 2003 but is he the best this era? Not so sure about that.

[LouGehrig]

He is amazing.

[Myankee4life]

Its between him and Pujols.

I go with David Ortiz.

[Geaux Sox]

He's just nasty retarded! He's not even from this planet! Glad he will play for the Sox for some time.

[SoxSon]

He's just nasty retarded! He's not even from this planet! Glad he will play for the Sox for some time.


"Nasty retarded"?! Hmm.

Ortiz is a giant, no doubt about it.

[ivylover]

He's nasty! He's todays Edgar Martinez (DH wise)
And the Twins released him:ughh

[SoxSon]

If any of you watched the game, you know what I mean when I say that the homer was clearly coming. 2-0 count, young guy on the mound, looking shaky...two runners on. Then he delivered one right into David's wheelhouse.
No doubt about it.

[Blackout]

i'd still go with pujols, but the difference is small

[ESPNFan]

I really don't see how there is still any doubt about the answer to this question.
In any situation with any kind of pressure and Ortiz has delivered.
Forget about baseball we realy need to be asking if he is the most clutch athlete in this era of sports.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

If any of you watched the game, you know what I mean when I say that the homer was clearly coming. 2-0 count, young guy on the mound, looking shaky...two runners on. Then he delivered one right into David's wheelhouse.
No doubt about it.

Yup. And the second pitch was a call that a veteran pitcher would have gotten against an average hitter. Typical of todays young pitchers who can do nothing except throw hard, to throw a heater in that spot was, well, stupid. Should have known Papi was in keyhole mode. Even a backdoor slider right down the middle gets taken for a strike.

Couldn't have hurt Ortiz that he was able to spend a couple innings staying loose and taking BP in the clubhouse :rolleyes:

[Mattingly]

If any of you watched the game, you know what I mean when I say that the homer was clearly coming. 2-0 count, young guy on the mound, looking shaky...two runners on. Then he delivered one right into David's wheelhouse.
No doubt about it.
What's the deal with the 2-0 count? I've heard that before. Does it mean the guy can't locate the pitch, so the 3rd one is where? High and inside?

After 2-0 count, I'd just walk him. If Manny singles, you've still got a 1-run lead.

Has any manager ever considered walking that guy? I hate being a spoiled sport but ... well actually, not that I hate being one but ... oh, never mind! :D

[Mattingly]

I really don't see how there is still any doubt about the answer to this question.
In any situation with any kind of pressure and Ortiz has delivered.
Forget about baseball we realy need to be asking if he is the most clutch athlete in this era of sports.
Michael Jordan and Boston's own Bill Russell wave hello. :waving

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Michael Jordan and Boston's own Bill Russell wave hello. :waving

Your speaking of two guys who did it for years, Ortiz the last two or three years, there is a difference. If the question is the last few seasons, it's Ortiz, he's a killer in the clutch.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If any of you watched the game, you know what I mean when I say that the homer was clearly coming. 2-0 count, young guy on the mound, looking shaky...two runners on. Then he delivered one right into David's wheelhouse.
No doubt about it.

I did watch it my feelings were exactly the same as yours. Shaky is not the word, this guy threw a couple of pitches in the dirt that inning and when Ortiz came to the plate he looked liked a scared rabbit. I did not think of the home run but the whole situation looked like Ortiz was going to come through.

Can't take it away from Ortiz, he's come through against some very good pitchers but in this case.... some how you could just see it coming.

[plask_stirlac]

He's nasty! He's todays Edgar Martinez (DH wise)
And the Twins released him:ughh

I'm still not too distraught about it... he had his issues for an arb.-eligible player, Boston hardly played him to start the season.

Right now he's the best clutch hitter, and by far the biggest clutch persona.

[Senior skittles]

he cant be the biggest clutch hitter of our era because hes only been doing it for 3 years....... but at this point with the game on the line, 2 run lead, and base loaded, you need to intentionally walk in the run and go with the next guy!!!!

[Mattingly]

Your speaking of two guys who did it for years, Ortiz the last two or three years, there is a difference. If the question is the last few seasons, it's Ortiz, he's a killer in the clutch.
Yes, and I believe that Michael Jordan had a much larger part in his team's success than has David Ortiz. He practically willed the team towards victory. There's no pitching around a player you don't wish to face in the NBA. You have to play him. Jordan could shoot, he was an elite defensive player (wink, wink on the DH), his shooting style was how your HS coach taught you to shoot. He was the complete machine. He also had 6 rings.

True, Ortiz is more recent, but to me, there's no comparison. I fully respect David Ortiz and he's definitely a beast. However, there's no way in the world he's on the same level as Michael Jordan.

I have no idea why managers don't pitch around him, since he--unlike Manny--is getting all of the publicity for the game-ending hits. Perhaps in the same situation, I'd take my chances on Manny. There was a base open.

[Mattingly]

I'm still not too distraught about it... he had his issues for an arb.-eligible player, Boston hardly played him to start the season.

Right now he's the best clutch hitter, and by far the biggest clutch persona.
The thing that most impressed me was his body language. When I saw the highlight, I looked at his swing and everything about it said uppercut and good-bye.

He lives for that moment and guys pitching to him, it's like AAA guys pitching to a slugger.

Now if the other guy weren't Manny, pitching around him would be a much more likely thing.

Regardless of the situation given, he's one person who doesn't give a pitcher any advantages. He seizes the situation and relishes coming into this. I'll give him credit for this, but I'll never for the life of me figure out why he's not pitched around to.

The crazy thing I've noticed is this: if Boston's down by 1 run, he'll single or double in both runners. If Boston is down by 2 runs, he'll hit a 3-run blast. He'll do whatever it takes to get the walkoff hit. HR, single, double, whatever. Seems strange, but it's just something I've noticed.

[GiambiJuice]

Without Manny behind him, he's nothing.

[SoxSon]

Without Manny behind him, he's nothing.

Funniest quote of the day.

Do you really believe that Carmona, and every other pitcher who has given up a game-winning hit to Ortiz, does so because they're more scared of the next guy in the lineup? Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

[SoxSon]

Couldn't have hurt Ortiz that he was able to spend a couple innings staying loose and taking BP in the clubhouse :rolleyes:


I'm sure that the extra BP is probably the difference between Ortiz and most other guys, huh? :p ;)

[Redfoot]

Without Manny behind him, he's nothing.

That's quite excessive. Manny protecting him in the lineup helps him, no doubt about it, but he would still be an extremely productive hitter without him.

I still, however, do not believe in the notion of clutch. I think that Ortiz hits a lot of late inning homers because he's a phenomenal hitter, not because "clutch" exists.

[Mattingly]

Funniest quote of the day.

Do you really believe that Carmona, and every other pitcher who has given up a game-winning hit to Ortiz, does so because they're more scared of the next guy in the lineup? Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
What? All those cheesy posts of mine and not one Beantowner bit down hard? OK, in that case, I'll have to come to one of you guys/gals. I'll volunteer you! Hey, it's your lucky day. Represent, dude! :D

I certainly wouldn't say in all reality (not even in the Bitter Rivalry thread) that Ortiz is "nada" w/o Manny. However, I do believe that a good portion of the reason he receives good pitches is because of the fact that if they pitch around him, then Manny would both have the same number of outs, but an additional man on base.

For example, if Ortiz has 1B/2B runners, he *HAS* to hit a HR, as it would take a deep double to score a man from 1B. Possible from him, but less likely.

Now if you walk Ortiz, you're automatically putting a man on 3B. Therefore, a single or double will score 2 runs, not the 1 that an Ortiz single or double may likely score (given that Ortiz' 1B runner would've stayed at 3B on a double off the LF wall).

Still, lots of managers and pitch coaches must believe they've still got a better chance against Ortiz than Manny. If not, then why aren't they walking him? Hey, I'd take a chance. Of course, there was only 1 out last night, so Manny hitting into a DP doesn't seem likely.

[efin98]

Without Manny behind him, he's nothing.

Even when Ortiz was 4th and Ramirez 3rd back in 2003 he was still hitting for power at 31 HRs and 101 RBIs in 128 games.

Hardly nothing with those numbers :rolleyes:

[SoxSon]

What? All those cheesy posts of mine and not one Beantowner bit down hard? OK, in that case, I'll have to come to one of you guys/gals. I'll volunteer you! Hey, it's your lucky day. Represent, dude! :D

I certainly wouldn't say in all reality (not even in the Bitter Rivalry thread) that Ortiz is "nada" w/o Manny. However, I do believe that a good portion of the reason he receives good pitches is because of the fact that if they pitch around him, then Manny would both have the same number of outs, but an additional man on base.

For example, if Ortiz has 1B/2B runners, he *HAS* to hit a HR, as it would take a deep double to score a man from 1B. Possible from him, but less likely.

Now if you walk Ortiz, you're automatically putting a man on 3B. Therefore, a single or double will score 2 runs, not the 1 that an Ortiz single or double may likely score (given that Ortiz' 1B runner would've stayed at 3B on a double off the LF wall).

Still, lots of managers and pitch coaches must believe they've still got a better chance against Ortiz than Manny. If not, then why aren't they walking him? Hey, I'd take a chance. Of course, there was only 1 out last night, so Manny hitting into a DP doesn't seem likely.

Yeah...I was resisting. ;)

I'm not saying that having a healthy bat behind you doesn't help. Of course it does. But anyone who has been watching knows that Ortiz makes hits to win games that aren't homers, off pitches at times that aren't particularly hittable. Last night, Ortiz hit a pitch that should've been hit, granted, but that had zero to do with Manny. That had to do with a goofy pitcher on the mound. Also, it's one thing to hit a ball because the guy on the mound is afraid of Manny; it's another thing altogether to hit one out of the park for the win.

I'd say Ortiz is still quite "something," with or without the protection of Ramirez.

[Mattingly]

Yeah...I was resisting. ;)

I'm not saying that having a healthy bat behind you doesn't help. Of course it does. But anyone who has been watching knows that Ortiz makes hits to win games that aren't homers, off pitches at times that aren't particularly hittable. Last night, Ortiz hit a pitch that should've been hit, granted, but that had zero to do with Manny. That had to do with a goofy pitcher on the mound. Also, it's one thing to hit a ball because the guy on the mound is afraid of Manny; it's another thing altogether to hit one out of the park for the win.

I'd say Ortiz is still quite "something," with or without the protection of Ramirez.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, a victim bites down hard. One down Yawkey Way, also. *YES*! :D ;) :p

Anyway, I'd say that it's more about the fact that he's so focused upon getting the hit and the consistency with which he does it. I don't know the definition of that word "clutch" (I'd intended to ask people to define it somehow in thtis thread), but the higher the stakes, the more he antes it up.

Now then, since he's so good or "something" as you say, then why the heck isn't he a Yankee? :waving :gt

[SoxSon]

Now then, since he's so good, why isn't he a Yankee? :waving

I think you all had your opportunity and blew it, didn't you? :laugh :p

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I have no idea why managers don't pitch around him, since he--unlike Manny--is getting all of the publicity for the game-ending hits. Perhaps in the same situation, I'd take my chances on Manny. There was a base open.
Neither do I. I know Manny is one heck of a hitter, a dangerous guy but the way Ortiz is hitting I would rather face Manny, depending on the game situation. At this time Ortiz seems almost unstoppable.

[Mattingly]

I think you all had your opportunity and blew it, didn't you? :laugh :p
Yeah, but Ortiz, Beckett, Schill (you could have him back the other 4 days he's not pitching) and Manny would seem nice for the Yanks to have.

Hey, I can dream, can't I? :D

[mrow1927]

Some hitters are just natural in the clutch. Ortiz is one of them. He just finds a way to help the Red Sox win when they need them. I understand that Manny is also a great hitter but unless the bases are loaded, I'll walk Ortiz and take my chances with Manny. Ortiz does too much damage in the clutch. Let Manny try to beat me.

[Mattingly]

Some hitters are just natural in the clutch. Ortiz is one of them. He just finds a way to help the Red Sox win when they need them. I understand that Manny is also a great hitter but unless the bases are loaded, I'll walk Ortiz and take my chances with Manny. Ortiz does too much damage in the clutch. Let Manny try to beat me.
Actually, if the bases were loaded, I was up by 2 runs, I'd IBB Ortiz. If Manny was going to beat me, then Ortiz would've don the damage anyway.

Kind of like choosing between swimming with sharks and swimming with gators. I'd take my chances on Manny, give him absolutely nothing to hit.

[Senior skittles]

Funniest quote of the day.

Do you really believe that Carmona, and every other pitcher who has given up a game-winning hit to Ortiz, does so because they're more scared of the next guy in the lineup? Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
hes actually right.....This morning on cold pizza skip balias made a very good point that i had forgoten. Before he came to boston his carrer high was like 20 HR and thats all!!!! The twins finally gave up on him so keep in my mind that he was NOT a marquee free agent with a lot of expectations. When ortiz came to boston manny had already established himself as one of the best hitters in the game. next thing ya know he's crazy awesome.... coincednece???? I dont think so....without manny he was nothing!!!!! Im not sure if thats the case now.....but I do need to add that ortiz's three year span is better than anything I have seen clutch wise in the history of this game.....

[Brannu]

Without Manny behind him, he's nothing.

Yeah, some proof of this claim would be nice.

However, does anyone think that Jeter may be the biggest clutch hitter of our era? Sometimes we get wrapped up in the moment, or the last few years or so ... but, when you say "this era" we're talking, to me, the last 10-20 years (the average length of a baseball career). When does this era begin? This may be more what I'm trying to say.

If you go back 10 years, I'd have to go with Jeter.

[KHenry14]

If Ortiz keeps this up, I wonder if he'll get the full Bonds treatment soon? Had Barry been in that situation he'd have been walked in a heartbeat. Now sure in 2006, Barry has Ray Durham behind him and Ray-Ray's not exactly Manny. But even when Barry had Kent to protect him they walked him, as that was the safer play. Sure Kent (or Manny) will beat you now and then, but the odds start to go over to your side when you take the bat out of the big guy's hands.

[Mattingly]

If Ortiz keeps this up, I wonder if he'll get the full Bonds treatment soon? Had Barry been in that situation he'd have been walked in a heartbeat. Now sure in 2006, Barry has Ray Durham behind him and Ray-Ray's not exactly Manny. But even when Barry had Kent to protect him they walked him, as that was the safer play. Sure Kent (or Manny) will beat you now and then, but the odds start to go over to your side when you take the bat out of the big guy's hands.
It's interesting that you've mentioned this. Who did the Giants have batting cleanup from 2001-04? Couldn't have been anyone like Manny. However, despite all the damage done, they keep pitching to him. With Barry, it could likely be the 2nd or 3rd inning, the Giants behind by 4 runs and they'd still walk him, nobody on base. That was deplorable.

You know those horror shows where the girl goes up the stairs and she meets her fate when the ghoul is at the top of the stairs? Well, one right after the next, the managers keep climbing those stairs, see someone get taken apart, and they keep climbing the stairs again.

They should fire the scouts who say what shouldn't be done against him with the game on the line, since nobody listens to them.

[csh19792001]

Is David Ortiz the biggest clutch hitter of our era?

I posted this not long ago.

The Real King of Clutch (http://www.sportingnews.com/experts/shawn-reid/blog/) (Author, Shawn Reid, Posted Wednesday, July 12, 2006)

I know this might surprise you, but I'm about to say something a lot of people aren't going to agree with. Go figure, right?

David Ortiz is NOT the best clutch hitter in baseball, no matter how many times folks in Bristol, Conn. say he is.

There, I said it. Before you start drop kicking me like you're Walker, Texas Ranger, and I'm an evil Texan rancher with an unlimited supply of goons and a stash of AK-47s in the basement, let me tell you why.

It's because there's another hitter who has displayed a similar ability to deliver key hits, and his stats blow Ortiz's out of the water.

His name is Albert Pujols.

It's been said there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I'm a firm believer in that. Some things -- a speedy baserunner's impact, the ability to hit with the game on the line -- can't be quantified by stats. But there ARE a lot of statistics that can measure performance in crucial situations. Name a category that measures clutch-hitting ability -- with runners on, with runners in scoring position with two outs, hitting in the seventh inning or later -- and Pujols tops Ortiz in almost every category, often by a significant margin. Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself:

David Ortiz BA HR RBI SLG
Runners on: .302 17 73 .626
RISP: .280 8 52 .550
RISP w/ 2 outs: .295 4 23 .614
7th or later: .265 10 28 .612
Close and late: .250 8 19 .750

Albert Pujols BA HR RBI SLG
Runners on: .345 15 62 .739
RISP: .443 8 48 .869
RISP w/ 2 outs: .391 1 13 .522
7th or later: .306 10 21 .764
Close and late: .389 7 17 1.056

If you're not shocked Ortiz's numbers are that low, you're either a stat geek or you haven't been watching him play since he moved to Boston and became a media darling. Ortiz's numbers aren't bad, but they're not as unbelievable as you'd expect from a player with his reputation as a clutch hitter.

Pujols has shown that he is just as dangerous as Ortiz with the game on the line. Just ask Brad Lidge, who's completely unaffected by Pujols' home run in Game 5 of last season's NLCS, right? And the numbers clearly show that Big Papi might be the man in Boston (thanks in no small part to the media), but Pujols is his Big Daddy.

Obviously, Ortiz has proved he can deliver crucial hits. There's no disputing that. Ortiz simply has a penchant for hitting home runs in games that are televised (benefit of playing in Boston, I suppose). But Pujols has proved it, too, and his stats show that he is more consistent and more dangerous than Big Papi in game-changing situations.

That's why if the game's on the line, El Hombre is my hombre.

[SoxSon]

hes actually right.....This morning on cold pizza skip balias made a very good point that i had forgoten. Before he came to boston his carrer high was like 20 HR and thats all!!!! The twins finally gave up on him so keep in my mind that he was NOT a marquee free agent with a lot of expectations. When ortiz came to boston manny had already established himself as one of the best hitters in the game. next thing ya know he's crazy awesome.... coincednece???? I dont think so....without manny he was nothing!!!!! Im not sure if thats the case now.....but I do need to add that ortiz's three year span is better than anything I have seen clutch wise in the history of this game.....

No, he's actually wrong.
Everyone is aware of the hitter Ortiz was in Minnesota. The last few years, he barely resembles that guy. It's comparing apples and oranges to look at his before and after selves. The Boston staff worked with him diligently when he first arrived in Beantown. I watched Ortiz progress, game after game after game. You could see him develop as a hitter in weekly increments...it was amazing.
Listen, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have Manny behind you in the lineup, but anyone who thinks Ortiz is all Manny's doing has gone loopy, and not in a good way.

[SoxSon]

I know this might surprise you, but I'm about to say something a lot of people aren't going to agree with. Go figure, right?



I can't imagine that anyone's surprised that Pujols is an unbelievable player. It's an honor just for Ortiz to be compared to him.

[W_Marone]

Ortiz is simply amazing.....the most clutch player in recent memory. He proves that there really is such thing as a clutch player.

[Geaux Sox]

It's because there's another hitter who has displayed a similar ability to deliver key hits, and his stats blow Ortiz's out of the water.

His name is Albert Pujols.

Name a category that measures clutch-hitting ability -- with runners on, with runners in scoring position with two outs, hitting in the seventh inning or later -- and Pujols tops Ortiz in almost every category, often by a significant margin. Don't believe me? Take a look for yourself:

David Ortiz BA HR RBI SLG
Runners on: .302 17 73 .626
RISP: .280 8 52 .550
RISP w/ 2 outs: .295 4 23 .614
7th or later: .265 10 28 .612
Close and late: .250 8 19 .750

Albert Pujols BA HR RBI SLG
Runners on: .345 15 62 .739
RISP: .443 8 48 .869
RISP w/ 2 outs: .391 1 13 .522
7th or later: .306 10 21 .764
Close and late: .389 7 17 1.056



Yea I can see how Papi's numbers are so much lower than Pujols.

Let's see now 17<15, 73<62, 52<48, 4<1, 23<13, 28<21, 8<7, 19<17. Must be a new math. Always thought the larger number was greater than the smaller number. Guess not.

[Blackout]

his BA and slugging aren't as high, meaning he's not making as much out of his opportunities as Pujols

those lists have nothing saying the higher amount of at-bats Ortiz must've had

[Mattingly]

I hate to be the evil Yankee fan, but how come nobody posts on the day when he gets the Golden Sombrero (4 strikeouts)?

He could've tied it in the 8th to lead off, but that was his 4th K.

I think that if we're going to say that someone is the clutchiest of the clutch or whatever, that we should list all of the good along with the bad. The successes and the failures. That would seem fair to me.

[Astro]

I hate to be the evil Yankee fan, but how come nobody posts on the day when he gets the Golden Sombrero (4 strikeouts)?

He could've tied it in the 8th to lead off, but that was his 4th K.

I think that if we're going to say that someone is the clutchiest of the clutch or whatever, that we should list all of the good along with the bad. The successes and the failures. That would seem fair to me.
In baseball if you fail 70% of the time you are considered highly successful

[Mattingly]

In baseball if you fail 70% of the time you are considered highly successful
So what's the percentage of success (or failure) rate that you'd consider clutch? Even if clutch were described as the "close and late" thing, with the game on the line, down by 1, if he ties up the score in "X" number of attempts, will he be considered "clutch"? I'm trying to find out what "X" is, numerically.

[SoxSon]

I hate to be the evil Yankee fan, but how come nobody posts on the day when he gets the Golden Sombrero (4 strikeouts)?

He could've tied it in the 8th to lead off, but that was his 4th K.

I think that if we're going to say that someone is the clutchiest of the clutch or whatever, that we should list all of the good along with the bad. The successes and the failures. That would seem fair to me.

You're kidding, right?
This isn't Yankee Stadium, you know. ;)
Every great player has bad days...that's a natural part of the game. Do you think we should keep an updated log with his every at-bat? Every meaningless single, every walk, every HBP, along with every strikeout? :p

[Mattingly]

You're kidding, right?
This isn't Yankee Stadium, you know. ;)
Every great player has bad days...that's a natural part of the game. Do you think we should keep an updated log with his every at-bat? Every meaningless single, every walk, every HBP, along with every strikeout? :p
I'm not sure. However, people keep saying that clutchness is a myth. He gets more press than anyone else whenever he hits a game-winner. How often does he do this?

[SoxSon]

I'm not sure. However, people keep saying that clutchness is a myth. He gets more press than anyone else whenever he hits a game-winner. How often does he do this?

I'm pretty sure that Ortiz has had 17 game-winning hits with the Red Sox (since 2003), with four so far this season. I also believe that he has the MLB record for game-winning hits for the last four years. (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm off on any of this.)

[plask_stirlac]

Walk Ortiz AND Manny. One-run game, one out? Try Lowell and the others, don't let Manny or Ortiz get a multi-run homer or single. Let Lowell if he does.

Some guys like Ortiz are just supremely confident and mentally prepared late, especially against Fausto Carmona. It's the opposite of Turnbow or Oliver Perez.

----
Interesting analysis... more dap for Pujols, which he deserves. Darn that brief injury!

Ortiz probably isn't going to redefine rate stats outside of Boston's DH history (although who knows after that July!). OTOH he could be the only lefty besides Ruth and Gehrig (wasn't it just thes two?) to get 50 HR and 150 RBI. He hit 31 HR before the break. I still like the Ortiz stat of one out in all recent "game-winning" PA situations. Close and late also has him against some ruthless relievers this year. At least half the AL has solid or great bullpen pitching; guys like Otsuka and Putz have popped up to say the least.

Just like I wouldn't flat-out say he's the best AL hitter, or even DH, he's clutch and very valuable. Hafner makes fewer outs, Manny does and I think he leads the AL in SLG, but in these pivotal situations Ortiz is just a hammer. Plus .289-37-105 is a good season, and he has two months left!

If you want other players with rate stats, look at Mauer this year as a catcher, having a historic season. Or Pujols and Manny have been at it pretty much all their careers.

In baseball if you fail 70% of the time you are considered highly successful

60%. And you should have about 5 little sucesses (TB) for every 4 "non-failures," give or take.

[KHenry14]

His name is Albert Pujols.
[/I]

My post about Ortiz also pertains to Albert. I'd much rather face Rolen or pretty much anybody but Albert, so I wonder why he's still being pitched to. If I'm managing a MLB team, I'm just not going to let the best hitter in the game get a chance to beat me. And if that means sometimes I put the go ahead run into scoring position, then so be it. I still say the odds of Albert or Papi beating me are far greater than if I let the guy behind them take a shot. Even if that is a guy like a future HOFer in Ramirez.

[Mattingly]

Walk Ortiz AND Manny. One-run game, one out? Try Lowell and the others, don't let Manny or Ortiz get a multi-run homer or single. Let Lowell if he does.
If this was somehow relating to my comments, then I believe I'd said to IBB Ortiz to face Manny. May seem ludicrous to some, but if it were such a bad idea, then how come Ortiz is the one ending up with the game-winner so often?

If, say, it's the 8th, Boston is down by 1 with 1 guy on, 2 out, Ortiz hits a HR then Manny grounds out, who's to say that Manny wouldn't have grounded out with the game on the line? Regardless of the stat line, to me, Ortiz does the lethal job to end the game more often. I'd definitely take my chances on him. Of course, I'd make sure my reliever knew not to throw any meatballs down Broadway.

[Senior skittles]

No, he's actually wrong.
Everyone is aware of the hitter Ortiz was in Minnesota. The last few years, he barely resembles that guy. It's comparing apples and oranges to look at his before and after selves. The Boston staff worked with him diligently when he first arrived in Beantown. I watched Ortiz progress, game after game after game. You could see him develop as a hitter in weekly increments...it was amazing.
Listen, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have Manny behind you in the lineup, but anyone who thinks Ortiz is all Manny's doing has gone loopy, and not in a good way.
You are proving my point!!! You cant tell me ortiz would have this many game winning hits withouht manny behind him!!!!! Sure Boston worked with him and his hitting....but they did not teach him his clutch ability. This is due to getting many good pitches to hit ( well maybe not so mutch now sense people are aware of how good he is) cause manny is behind him. They will walk ortiz.......only to be killed by manny...Then were back to square 1.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I normally and very skeptical of the image of clutch performance. But not in this case.

Ortiz leads the majors in RBI in close and late games, and leads the AL in runs scored in those situations as well.

Clutch performance is absolutely an overused term. The mediots are to blame for this. But in very rare cases, it is a real trait. Ortiz is one of those cases.

[Mattingly]

Proof that IBBing Ortiz can work:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/playbyplay/MLB_20060803_CLE@BOS

2nd inning, 2 RISP after a double, Ortiz is pitched around and Manny flies out.

To me, Ortiz would've singled or doubled both those guys in off the LF Monster at Fenway. It's like something in his blood to do that. Granted, Manny is an awesome hitter statistically. However, with the game on the line where one swing of the bat can win it for them, Ortiz is like a shark that smells blood. He feasts upon it.

[VTSoxFan]

You are proving my point!!! You cant tell me ortiz would have this many game winning hits withouht manny behind him!!!!! Sure Boston worked with him and his hitting....but they did not teach him his clutch ability. This is due to getting many good pitches to hit ( well maybe not so mutch now sense people are aware of how good he is) cause manny is behind him. They will walk ortiz.......only to be killed by manny...Then were back to square 1.

But in '04, Manny hit in front of Ortiz... and witness Papi's postseason clutch hits v. Anaheim and NYY that season.

Alas, with the wind blowing in tonight, Ortiz's two long drives to deep right were hauled in on the warning track. Guess he's losing his pop. :o :grouchy :ughh

[SoxSon]

You are proving my point!!! You cant tell me ortiz would have this many game winning hits withouht manny behind him!!!!! Sure Boston worked with him and his hitting....but they did not teach him his clutch ability. This is due to getting many good pitches to hit ( well maybe not so mutch now sense people are aware of how good he is) cause manny is behind him. They will walk ortiz.......only to be killed by manny...Then were back to square 1.

The original post I responded to said "without Manny, Ortiz is nothing." You agreed with that post in your response, #33. That is what I'm arguing against; that is what I'm sure is incorrect.

You now seem to be nitpicking on the precise number of hits Ortiz gets, but that's not where I'm at on this. Would Ortiz have hit 13 game-winning hits for the Sox, rather than 17, without Manny behind him? Maybe. Either way, though, I'm sure he would've had several. The point is that Ortiz would be a beast in the batter's box, with or without Manny at this point, due to the hitter he has become. He certainly wouldn't be "nothing." You might want to take a look at the point made by VTSoxFan in post #55, too.

Also, if there is such a thing as clutch ability, no one's "teaching" it.

[Mattingly]

You are proving my point!!! You cant tell me ortiz would have this many game winning hits withouht manny behind him!!!!! Sure Boston worked with him and his hitting....but they did not teach him his clutch ability. This is due to getting many good pitches to hit ( well maybe not so mutch now sense people are aware of how good he is) cause manny is behind him. They will walk ortiz.......only to be killed by manny...Then were back to square 1.
Are you saying that Ortiz would be just a regular "nobody" had he bat in front of a defensive replacement type of guy? Or are you saying that he'd merely have 85-90% of his current self if he'd hit in front of a .260 hitter who couldn't get more than 80 RBI and 20 HRs a season?

Pick a Red Sox starting player and tell me how well you think Ortiz' numbers would've looked had he bat in front of that guy.

I'll agree with the premise that batting in front of a great slugger certainly helps one's career numbers. See Ruth batting #3 in front of Gehrig at cleanup.

While Ortiz invariably sees many quality pitches, you must also remember that he does something with it. How often have you seen a slugger (pick a name, any name out of a hat) who was tossed a big fat meatball, only to watch it go by for a strike. Every fan watching that game must've thought, "How the heck did he let that one go past him?" In the same AB, that slugger may just a very likely chase ball 4 for a strikeout.

Perhaps it's his pitch selection during those crucial moments, as well as his ability to turn on them and drive them.

In either case, he's obviously an elite hitter, as much as that pains me to admit, and to me, he's even taken the title of most famous DH away from Seattle's venerable Edgar "Papi" Martinez.

[redlegsfan21]

I've always thought of Jeter as one of the best clutch hitters (not always power) along with Pujols and Papi.

[Mattingly]

I've always thought of Jeter as one of the best clutch hitters (not always power) along with Pujols and Papi.
It all depends upon one's definition of the word "clutch". From my general observations, Ortiz is widely credited with winning games in the so-called "close and late" category. Jeter may bust a game or two open with a double or triple in around the 5th inning.

Ortiz' single, double or HR in the 8th or 9th to tie or win the game seem very dramatic. I'd say that both win the game regardless.

I'm not trying to take credit away from Ortiz. I just think that he's changed the perception of what "clutch" is.

I more respect his two solo HRs in yesterday's 3-2 win at Tampa Bay, despite the opposition. He'd hit not just one, but two jacks. Also, this wasn't a game where he needed to save a very poor David Wells start, unlike the 9-8 game that resulted in this thread.

[SoxSon]

It all depends upon one's definition of the word "clutch". From my general observations, Ortiz is widely credited with winning games in the so-called "close and late" category. Jeter may bust a game or two open with a double or triple in around the 5th inning.

Ortiz' single, double or HR in the 8th or 9th to tie or win the game seem very dramatic. I'd say that both win the game regardless.

I'm not trying to take credit away from Ortiz. I just think that he's changed the perception of what "clutch" is.

I more respect his two solo HRs in yesterday's 3-2 win at Tampa Bay, despite the opposition. He'd hit not just one, but two jacks. Also, this wasn't a game where he needed to save a very poor David Wells start, unlike the 9-8 game that resulted in this thread.

You know what's interesting? All the talk about "game-winning" hits by Ortiz, and yesterday is a good example of a game that will fly under the radar. No one's counting Ortiz's hits yesterday as "game-winning," simply because they occurred too early in the game to lend a certain dramatic element. I wonder how many truly "game-winning" hits he's had...?

[Mattingly]

You know what's interesting? All the talk about "game-winning" hits by Ortiz, and yesterday is a good example of a game that will fly under the radar. No one's counting Ortiz's hits yesterday as "game-winning," simply because they occurred too early in the game to lend a certain dramatic element. I wonder how many truly "game-winning" hits he's had...?
Basically, my gripe against the whole Ortiz thing, when looking at the larger picture of the team--rather than focusing primarily on the player--is that it seemed at time lo-tech. My feeling is that, especially for a playoff-bound team, especially one with a .600+ Win%, they shouldn't need a guy who bops to save them. I think that they should have pitching do most of the "saving", and they should win games 5-3 or 4-2, not 9-8. That's my comment on the whole 9-8 game that Boomer started.

I've said this about A-Rod: don't show me how you've gone bonkers in a blowout. Show me what you can do in a low-scoring game which could also be easily lost.

I've said this about Big Papi: don't tell me of the 11-9 games you've won for the team. Tell me about the 4-3 games you've helped win, and I couldn't care less about the drama of it being late in the game.

Sure it's exciting to win a game in the 8th or the 9th. It's nice, but if you depend upon that, how do you know the opposing team won't simply deny you an opportunity by taking care of the prior batters? I keep hearing that the RS philosophy is to get to Ortiz, especially with men on base. Great idea, but not one I'd like to rely upon.

I think that a HR early is the same as a HR late. In fact, I believe that a single can score 2, but a HR may only score the guy who'd hit it. So there are countless ways to be "clutch" in a game, and I don't count the "close/late" thing too much.

Now what if a team leads 2-1 in the 6th. A 2-run single followed by a first-and-third single brings in corner runners. To me, that's clutch, since the team then has a chance to blow the game wide open. A double there could lead to an RBI, 2 RISP.

Again, I like what Ortiz has done, and I admire his ability to come through very big when his team relies upon him so often. It's like he's Mr Automatic in there. However, I believe that the fans would do well to not just admire those late/close games, but the other games where he comes through.

A win is a win, regardless of the drama (or lack thereof) attached to it. :) I just think that once you get closer to September, the fewer opposing runs scored, the better.

[Mattingly]

Oh, one more thing. People earlier mentioned something about Ortiz with the 2-0 count.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5909&type=batting&year=2006

He's very good there. However, on the 3-0 count, he's absolutely lethal in the Barry Bonds zone from 2001-02.

[SoxSon]

While I hear everything you're saying, I guess I'm of the mindset that a good team wins any old way it can. :D

[Hammerin Hank]

The poll needs a third option. I don't believe in clutch hitting. I believe in lucky or well-timed hits.

[redlegsfan21]

My definition of clutch is being able to drive in runs in tight situations during big at-bats like lets say it's 5-3, losing team at-bat, runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs in the 5th or 6th. If the player at-bat can drive those runs in, I could call him a clutch player. Ortiz drives in runs (himself) in the 9th that just happen to be the winning run.

[Mattingly]

The poll needs a third option. I don't believe in clutch hitting. I believe in lucky or well-timed hits.
If the thread starters requests a third option to the poll, then he/she can PM me.

As to lucky or well-timed hits, I'd say that if it's done occasionally, it's luck. If it's done on a more consistent basis, it's skill. I believe that Ortiz has skill.