Of this generation's best, who would be your pitching coach?

[Brannu]

I was just thinking of this one day and thought that I would pose this question to you all. This generation has seen some really great pitchers, especially in the likes of our current 300 game winners, that are - unbelievably - still pitching.

Gregg Maddux just finished a really goood pitching performance against The Cardinals today. Roger is still great. Randy got rocked today, but, you still can't deny his greatness. Furthermore, you have others that are still performing at a high level, at an older age.

So, out of those listed ... if you were to have a franchise and wanted to plug one of these guys in as a pitching coach ... who would it be? Naturally, this goes beyond the numbers, but also into their personality and perceived ability to teach.

[Brannu]

I chose Greg Maddux.

1. The intangibles. Fielding and hitting. Not a great hitter but knows probably better than anyone how to lay down the sacrifice bunt, effectively.

2. I think that as he has gotten older and his velocity has dipped significantly, he has learned more creative ways to get batters out.

3. He appears, to me, as someone that is capable of teaching the willing student - the art of pitching.

[cbenson5]

I voted for Greg Maddux. I'm guessing he will have several offers to chose from if he decides he wants to be a pitching coach.

[Mattingly]

Pedro. He'd helped Tom Glavine on his pitching technique, finding a fault that he'd known about for awhile. He'd also helped El Duque with his methods.

I'm well aware of the others' greatness, but unfamiliar with their actually having helped other pitchers.

Sometimes I wonder why catchers aren't considered as pitch coaches. Seems crazy, but don't they know the pitchers best?

[Baseball Guru]

I chose Greg Maddux.

1. The intangibles. Fielding and hitting. Not a great hitter but knows probably better than anyone how to lay down the sacrifice bunt, effectively.

2. I think that as he has gotten older and his velocity has dipped significantly, he has learned more creative ways to get batters out.

3. He appears, to me, as someone that is capable of teaching the willing student - the art of pitching.


Agreed and well said!

[Brannu]

Pedro. He'd helped Tom Glavine on his pitching technique, finding a fault that he'd known about for awhile. He'd also helped El Duque with his methods.

I'm well aware of the others' greatness, but unfamiliar with their actually having helped other pitchers.

Sometimes I wonder why catchers aren't considered as pitch coaches. Seems crazy, but don't they know the pitchers best?

I didn't know that Pedro had done that, thanks for the info. OUt of all of them, I expected him to get the least votes ... but - the things that we never know.

As far as your other point ... Dave Duncan of The Cardinals is the only pitching coach that I know of. But, it makes sense that they would be good pitching coaches.

[rockin500]

i went with Maddux since he has been the secondary pitching coach the past two seasons and has been teaching Marshall and Marmol quite a bit this year.

He's probably the smartest pitcher in the majors in knowing how to get guys out.

[Whitesoxnut]

Maddux without question. Hes always been a student of the game and a total player.

[Francoeurstein]

Maddux great pitcher, good control, good defense, and good guy. Also he was taught by Leo Mazzone.

[plask_stirlac]

LOL, Randy Johnson.

"I've been a horrible pitcher, legendary pitcher, postseason flop, postseason titan. You're only 6'4", so I suppose your crappy little slider might work from that arm angle. Get a bird-crushing fastball, at least."

[baseball junkie]

I'm going with the consensus: Greg Maddux. Besides, his brother Mike is already a fairly good pitching coach. Mike Maddux spent 15 years pitching in the majors, in the shadow of his younger brother, upon retiring at the end of 2000, he went to work for the Astros and was assigned to that organization's Double-A farm team. After coaching in the minors in 2001 and 2002, Mike Maddux was hired by Ned Yost to be the pitching coach for the Brewers. He's been doing the job ever since.

I remember an old interview with Greg Maddux in which he said that often after games the two would call each other and discuss their performances and how they could have improved them: mechanics, pitch selection, etc.

There is, however, one huge difference between the two. Acccording to baseball-reference.com, Mike made $5,571,000 in his 15-year career. By the end of 2006, Greg will have made $133,845,000 in his 21-year career. Mike might be coaching because he wants the income. That shouldn't ever be a problem for Greg.

But if he really wants to, Greg Maddux will probably make an excellent pitching coach.

[geezer]

They dont call Greg Maddux "The Professor" for nothing. Maddux is just a great pitcher, a great strategist, and he knows that the most important way is to get the opponent an out by all means necesarily, not just by the strikeout (although he has over 3,000 Ks in his career, its not his strength), and he is also a great fielder, so he can teach future prospects the importance of retiring a batter when the batter makes a squeeze play.

[W_Marone]

I would pick Clemens just because of what I saw on the ESPN Dream thing with that kid, he taught him some good stuff, in his older age he isnt a fire guy off the field anymore, he's not the bat througher anymore, he's a smart, passionate, grateful guy now. I think he would be a good pitching coach. But Maddux isnt a bad pick either.

[Mattingly]

I didn't know that Pedro had done that, thanks for the info. OUt of all of them, I expected him to get the least votes ... but - the things that we never know.

As far as your other point ... Dave Duncan of The Cardinals is the only pitching coach that I know of. But, it makes sense that they would be good pitching coaches.
I basically think that the best pitchers don't necessarily make the best teachers. To use an NBA example, two of the best players of 15-20 years ago would be Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. They'd both offered the other's speech during HoF inductions. However, Magic didn't fare well as a head coach with the Lakers, but Bird did with the Indiana Pacers. To me, it's communications skills also.

As I'd retold some time ago, Joe Torre, when he was the Cards' manager, had ex-Card Bob Gibson as his "attitude coach", but Gibby said that the younger pitchers wanted to be babied too much and he had no time for that. I sometimes wondered if he'd really wanted to give them some of his infamous high heat just for that need for coddling. :D :p

Presuming it can be easily agreed that Leo Mazzone is the best pitch coach out there, where is his resume as a HoF caliber pitcher similar to Clemens, Martinez and Maddux?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Leo_Mazzone

That link has a Wikipedia type of look to it, but that's what they had. He was a minor leaguer until 1976, was hired by the Braves in 1979. Not much time for an MLB career.

We could go on about the best 50 pitchers of the last 30 years. However, how many of them have become great pitching coaches? If the transformation were that simple, I believe they'd have done it.

Basically, I think that you have to be able to recognize mechanical flaws with a pitcher and given them some kind of exercise to fix those things. Be they lefty, righty, sidearm, power guy, control freak, finesse pitcher, whatever. You'd have a large stable of horses to deal with. Heck, even things like calling the pitchout would be needed. If the manager is new, perhaps telling him when a reliever needs to be brought in, and which one.

That's why I'd mentioned the thing about the catcher. They know pitchers. However, I don't think that a catcher can teach a pitcher how to throw a 4-seam heater, as he's never had to throw one himself.

Look at hitting. Ted Williams was one of the best hitters, but he brought it to some science in his various books about hitting, with some "zone" where the hit was more and more likely to result in a hit. I believe he could teach hitting because of his exhaustive study on this. I'm not sure how much patience he'd have with every single hitter, but that in itself would factor into his level of success.

For Clemens, I also think he would be good. Andy Pettitte was his ace student. Andy was never in the shape he was until he'd adopted Clemens' famed workout technique and Roger joined Andy in Houston, where they'd both lived (Andy's in nearby Deer Park, TX, I believe).

Anyway, if Clemens can teach people his "Mr Splitty", as he calls it, can deal with lefty specialists and such, he should be fine.

[Astro]

I'm going with the consensus: Greg Maddux. Besides, his brother Mike is already a fairly good pitching coach. Mike Maddux spent 15 years pitching in the majors, in the shadow of his younger brother, upon retiring at the end of 2000, he went to work for the Astros and was assigned to that organization's Double-A farm team. After coaching in the minors in 2001 and 2002, Mike Maddux was hired by Ned Yost to be the pitching coach for the Brewers. He's been doing the job ever since.

I remember an old interview with Greg Maddux in which he said that often after games the two would call each other and discuss their performances and how they could have improved them: mechanics, pitch selection, etc.

There is, however, one huge difference between the two. Acccording to baseball-reference.com, Mike made $5,571,000 in his 15-year career. By the end of 2006, Greg will have made $133,845,000 in his 21-year career. Mike might be coaching because he wants the income. That shouldn't ever be a problem for Greg.

But if he really wants to, Greg Maddux will probably make an excellent pitching coach.
Right, I mean Mike Maddux does need the income.... whats 5.5 million dollars anyway

Getting away from sarcasim, went with Greg Maddux, his brother is a good pitching coach, I'm sure he would make an even better one

[Mattingly]

Right, I mean Mike Maddux does need the income.... whats 5.5 million dollars anyway

Getting away from sarcasim, went with Greg Maddux, his brother is a good pitching coach, I'm sure he would make an even better one
I'm curious, not that I'd ever question his abilities or anything, but does anyone know offhand of a pitcher who Greg has helped with their form? Or taught a pitch to?

With Clemens, he'd helped Moose with the knuckle curve and Pettitte, I think he'd taught his "Mr Splitty" that Sutter made famous.

[plask_stirlac]

Well maybe Greg was just secretive. I think he has enough for a definitive book on pitching, just kept to himself. Guys could leave. He probably was a big part along with Smoltz and Glavine, through Mazzone, in that little network, for guys like Millwood and Neagle. It's probably just another mental rule, like using the backup catcher for his starts and their non-start dugout analysis for maximum pitching strategy.

Besides, he would be much more useful for pitching strategy. If I'm Mark Prior, I would rather learn the splitter from Clemens, and it could be nasty as hell. Not that I wouldn't want to learn offspeed stuff from Maddux, but I'd rather learn how to use speed changes, location, etc. Or what to do for Bonds as opposed to Francoeur that works best.

[SoxSon]

I'll be the sole vote for Curt here.
While I think he would annoy the you-know-what out of me (no argument from me there), I've been watching him religiously work his black book for the last couple of years, and I really can't imagine that there's another pitcher out there with more notes and ideas on pitch counts/selection, batter preferences, etc.. Curt completely pulled himself out of a dismal 2005 at the age of 39...I also think that says something about his pitching intelligence and cleverness. On top of that, I've watched and read a lot about his ability to work well with the younger guys on the Boston pitching staff. As far as working within a franchise, I don't think there's another pitcher as obsessed and focused as Curt.

[yankillaz]

Let's see...

Roger Clemens is an A$$.
Greg Maddux is an obvious choice.
Tom Glavine is too perfectionist.
Randy Johnson is nuts.
Mike Mussina is too quiet.
Pedro Martinez is too cocky.
Curt Schilling talks too much.

I go with Mussina and then Glavine.

[rockin500]

I'm curious, not that I'd ever question his abilities or anything, but does anyone know offhand of a pitcher who Greg has helped with their form? Or taught a pitch to?

With Clemens, he'd helped Moose with the knuckle curve and Pettitte, I think he'd taught his "Mr Splitty" that Sutter made famous.
ask any of the young starters. He wont go out of his way to help a young player. Thats not his job to do that. But when Marmol, Big Z, Marshall have questions, they can always go up and ask them and you see them discussing pitching stuff.

[Brannu]

I basically think that the best pitchers don't necessarily make the best teachers. To use an NBA example, two of the best players of 150 years ago would be Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. They'd both offered the other's speech during HoF inductions. However, Magic didn't fare well as a head coach with the Lakers, but Bird did with the Indiana Pacers. To me, it's communications skills also.

As I'd retold some time ago, Joe Torre, when he was the Cards' manager, had ex-Card Bob Gibson as his "attitude coach", but Gibby said that the younger pitchers wanted to be babied too much and he had no time for that. I sometimes wondered if he'd really wanted to give them some of his infamous high heat just for that need for coddling. :D :p

Presuming it can be easily agreed that Leo Mazzone is the best pitch coach out there, where is his resume as a HoF caliber pitcher similar to Clemens, Martinez and Maddux?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Leo_Mazzone

That link has a Wikipedia type of look to it, but that's what they had. He was a minor leaguer until 1976, was hired by the Braves in 1979. Not much time for an MLB career.

We could go on about the best 50 pitchers of the last 30 years. However, how many of them have become great pitching coaches? If the transformation were that simple, I believe they'd have done it.

Basically, I think that you have to be able to recognize mechanical flaws with a pitcher and given them some kind of exercise to fix those things. Be they lefty, righty, sidearm, power guy, control freak, finesse pitcher, whatever. You'd have a large stable of horses to deal with. Heck, even things like calling the pitchout would be needed. If the manager is new, perhaps telling him when a reliever needs to be brought in, and which one.

That's why I'd mentioned the thing about the catcher. They know catchers. However, I don't think that a catcher can teach a pitcher how to throw a 4-seam heater, as he's never had to throw one himself.

Look at hitting. Ted Williams was one of the best hitters, but he brought it to some science in his various books about hitting, with some "zone" where the hit was more and more likely to result in a hit. I believe he could teach hitting because of his exhaustive study on this. I'm not sure how much patience he'd have with every single hitter, but that in itself would factor into his level of success.

For Clemens, I also think he would be good. Andy Pettitte was his ace student. Andy was never in the shape he was until he'd adopted Clemens' famed workout technique and Roger joined Andy in Houston, where they'd both lived (Andy's in nearby Deer Park, TX, I believe).

Anyway, if Clemens can teach people his "Mr Splitty", as he calls it, can deal with lefty specialists and such, he should be fine.

These are all very excellent points and I have zero knowledge on what Maddux has done for the younger guys. I just imagine that if Wood and prior would have been healthy during his time there, that we may have seen some improvements for the two of them. However, when I thought of this question, I assumed that most people would go with Clemens because of the wins, the work ethic, the age and overall dominance for so many years.

As far as what you wrote above, I especially like the comparisons of Bird, Magic, William and Mazzone. It makes you wonder why some of the greatest teachers weren't the greatest players themselves and vice versa. But, I look at myself as a writer and realize that I'm not really good at teaching writing. Yet, I think that comes from being wrapped up in my own style of expression, whereas, as you stated, you have to be able to fix "mechanical flaws", so that they can master their form.

It's funny, as I write this, I'm watching The Cubs/Cardinals game and they are talking about Maddux, saying, "Not the easiest guy to get a straight answer from." They were talking about the possibilities of trade, but, if that is an overall expression of his personality .... not what you would want in a pitching coach. :) But, I just thought that was funny.

[Mattingly]

ask any of the young starters. He wont go out of his way to help a young player. Thats not his job to do that. But when Marmol, Big Z, Marshall have questions, they can always go up and ask them and you see them discussing pitching stuff.
OK. Sounds good.

Speaking of Curt Schilling, he's another guy who, in his Philly years, asked Clemens about his power pitch and Clemens obliged. Turned an ordinary pitcher into a sensation.

[SoxSon]

OK. Sounds good.

Speaking of Curt Schilling, he's another guy who, in his Philly years, asked Clemens about his power pitch and Clemens obliged. Turned an ordinary pitcher into a sensation.

You're absolutely right. Curt learned from Roger. I, however, don't think Roger would make a particularly interested or invested pitching instructor for a ballclub. Could be wrong, obviously...but Roger seems really into Roger, in my opinion.

[Brannu]

You're absolutely right. Curt learned from Roger. I, however, don't think Roger would make a particularly interested or invested pitching instructor for a ballclub. Could be wrong, obviously...but Roger seems really into Roger, in my opinion.

Maybe Roger should consider being a pitching coach.

7 innings, 1 unearned run, 9 strikeouts - left the game winning 5-1 - Arizona comes back and wins 7-6. :crazy

[SoxSon]

Maybe Roger should consider being a pitching coach.

7 innings, 1 unearned run, 9 strikeouts - left the game winning 5-1 - Arizona comes back and wins 7-6. :crazy

As was said earlier, being particularly adept at something doesn't mean you're particularly adept at teaching it. I get to listen to those individuals who claim otherwise all the time, as I'm sure all teachers do.
Roger is an incredible pitcher, but I'm not convinced he'd be even a good teacher. That being said, he could at least try to spend a little time with that Houston bullpen. :laugh :)

[baseball junkie]

As noted in a previos thrread would chose Greg Maddux.

But I think we're shorting

[Mattingly]

Brannu, I'll get back to your reply later on, perhaps this afternoon or evening.
As was said earlier, being particularly adept at something doesn't mean you're particularly adept at teaching it. I get to listen to those individuals who claim otherwise all the time, as I'm sure all teachers do.
Roger is an incredible pitcher, but I'm not convinced he'd be even a good teacher. That being said, he could at least try to spend a little time with that Houston bullpen. :laugh :)
Bah, humbug! Ask Roger how he learned from another power guy who taught him to use his leg to drive the ball:

Mr 5,714 himself, Nolan Ryan. That's how Roger learned to be a power pitcher, but I'm not 100% sure whether it was studying the Ryan Express or speaking directly with him. Anyway, from some prior YES program about him, that's how Roger learned his power ways. You study his form, you can see that his mechanics aren't flawed. That and his workout techniques (using some football, etc) have kept him in the bigs for 22 seasons.

[Spiritboxer]

Another vote for Maddox, a thinking man's pitcher with the wherewithall to teach. Imagine being able to pass all that knowledge/experience on to the next generation of pitchers. A can't miss IMO.

[SoxSon]

Bah, humbug! Ask Roger how he learned from another power guy who taught him to use his leg to drive the ball:

Mr 5,714 himself, Nolan Ryan. That's how Roger learned to be a power pitcher, but I'm not 100% sure whether it was studying the Ryan Express or speaking directly with him. Anyway, from some prior YES program about him, that's how Roger learned his power ways. You study his form, you can see that his mechanics aren't flawed. That and his workout techniques (using some football, etc) have kept him in the bigs for 22 seasons.

And how does any of this mean Roger would make a good teacher? ;)

[Mattingly]

And how does any of this mean Roger would make a good teacher? ;)
He could tell others about how he used his leg to increase his body mechanics. Rather than working hard (using his arm to gain power pitching), he could school them on using his leg kick to drive his power.

Yeah, Roger is all about Roger. Then again, so is Pedro. Still, if given the job, they'd have to open up and share their wealth of knowledge.

Pedro does have ways of getting hitters to chase strike 2, setting up a filthy strike 3. Hopefully that can be taught also. The thinking game, not just the throwing game.

[SoxSon]

He could tell others about how he used his leg to increase his body mechanics. Rather than working hard (using his arm to gain power pitching), he could school them on using his leg kick to drive his power.

Yeah, Roger is all about Roger. Then again, so is Pedro. Still, if given the job, they'd have to open up and share their wealth of knowledge.

Pedro does have ways of getting hitters to chase strike 2, setting up a filthy strike 3. Hopefully that can be taught also. The thinking game, not just the throwing game.

I didn't mention it earlier, but I don't think Pedro would make a very good pitching coach, either. When I say this, by the way, I'm talking on a franchise level, not just helping out young guys here and there. Both Pedro and Roger have nasty stuff, and I am awe of both of them, but let's face it...they're also both really self-involved. Usually, "self-involved" doesn't equal "works well with others."

[Mattingly]

I didn't mention it earlier, but I don't think Pedro would make a very good pitching coach, either. When I say this, by the way, I'm talking on a franchise level, not just helping out young guys here and there. Both Pedro and Roger have nasty stuff, and I am awe of both of them, but let's face it...they're also both really self-involved. Usually, "self-involved" doesn't equal "works well with others."
True, they're both hi-maintenance types. Sometimes I think that Pedro really left Boston because he couldn't fathom being #2 to Schilling. He'd also lost to Schilling when Arizona came to Fenway.

Still, I count Schilling, Pettitte and Mussina as guys that Clemens has helped. I also count Glavine and Orlando Hernandez that Pedro has helped.

I sometimes wonder about Pedro's mechanics. For such a small guy (5'11", 170 or so), he's a power pitcher, not a finesse guy. If he's mostly using his leg, not his arm, then I'd agree with giving him a try as pitch coach. If he's not going to teach guys to use their legs to propel their power, then I'd be all against this.

[SoxSon]

I sometimes wonder about Pedro's mechanics. For such a small guy (5'11", 170 or so), he's a power pitcher, not a finesse guy. If he's mostly using his leg, not his arm, then I'd agree with giving him a try as pitch coach. If he's not going to teach guys to use their legs to propel their power, then I'd be all against this.


Well, I think he's had to become more of a finesse guy than he was earlier in his career. At times, watching him in Boston was like waiting for an arm to fall off. Seemed like it was one injury after another.

[Mattingly]

Well, I think he's had to become more of a finesse guy than he was earlier in his career. At times, watching him in Boston was like waiting for an arm to fall off. Seemed like it was one injury after another.
Dirty little secret:

Since 2002 or 2003, many Yankee fans have had our annual "When will Pedro's arm fall off?" thread. I'm being 100% serious on this. We knew that those bailouts in September meant he wasn't going to last a full season. Then one season, he'd been given the approval of the GM (DD (Dan Duquette), I believe) to take a day off. It was like a circus.

His shoulder's health would likely be my question as to his techniques. Some work hard and some worked smart. To me, Pedro worked more hard than anything else. Awesome pitcher, very smart in getting guys to chase, different arm angles and speeds, filthy stuff, but I wonder if he'd used his leg as much as he should've.

[Brannu]

Well, with Oliver Perez going to The Mets, I'm interested in seeing if Pedro and Glavine can help this young, every now and again dominate, but more often than not horrible - pitcher.

Oh ... as we watch ... they are saying that Oliver will more than likely start at AAA and they will try to develop him for next year.

[jpenrod]

I'm curious, not that I'd ever question his abilities or anything, but does anyone know offhand of a pitcher who Greg has helped with their form? Or taught a pitch to?

With Clemens, he'd helped Moose with the knuckle curve and Pettitte, I think he'd taught his "Mr Splitty" that Sutter made famous.

Matt I can not give you a specific case for Maddux but I do know that Mazzone and Cox have both often made the statement that having Maddux and glavine on the bench was like having two extra pitching coaches. They were always there willing to provide advice and help younger (or even older) pitchers work on mechanics and how to approach the game mentally. I do not know that Maddux ever thrust himself on anyone, but from all I have ever read from Braves pitchers and coaches, Maddux was willing to help anyone who would listen. I believe Maddux has the right demeanor and knowledge to be a great pitching coach should he choose so. I agree with you that HOF pitchers do not always make the best pitching coach, because often they relied so heavily on talent they really do not know how to find a flaw in their own mechanics much less someone elses. Maddux I believe has from time to time helped other pitchers find little tweaks in thier game, though as I said I can not give you a specific instance of it.