Satchel Paige Thread [Archive]

Williamsburg2599

07-29-2006, 10:19 AM

Simular to the Babe Ruth thread, here is a place to discuss Satchel Paige, who lived one of the longest and more interesting baseball careers of any player ever. Since all the games Paige played in were not scored and recorded, or those scores have been lost to time, some of the following stats are estimates of his career totals:

First star of the Negro Leagues inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame

Estimated 300 career shutouts

Estimated 2000 or more wins

64 straight scoreless innings

21 straight wins

(source:www.wikipedia.com)

Here are some little known and interesting facts about Mr. Paige, found at the offical Paige website, www.satchelpaige.com:
Did You Know?

He was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1971.

Satchel was over 40 years old the entire time he played in the majors.

He earned his nickname, "Satchel," as a young boy, when he took a job carrying bags (and satchels) at railroad stations for passengers.

Satchel started his career in 1924 when he had a tryout with the Mobile Tigers, a semi-pro baseball team.
He went on to become the dominant pitcher of the Negro Leagues.

When the Negro League wasn't playing in the winter, he would go to the Caribbean leagues and pitch.

He claimed that the more that he pitched, the stronger he got, so he did not work out on his own.

He started 29 games in one month in Bismarck, North Dakota.

He claimed that he won 104 of the 105 games he pitched in 1934.

He would face major league players annually by playing against major league barnstorming teams.

He was brought into the major leagues in 1948 by Bill Veeck to play for Cleveland.

He holds the record for being the oldest rookie in the Major League.

In his first year with Cleveland, he went 6-1 with one save and a 2.48 ERA.
He ended his six-year major league career with a 28-31 record and a 3.29 ERA.

Joe DiMaggio called him "the best and fastest pitcher I've ever faced."

He retired in 1953.

He made a special appearance in 1965, pitching 3 innings for the Kansas City Athletics.

Pitching for the Kansas City Athletics made him the oldest player in the Major Leagues.

Paige did not commit a single error in 179 major league games.

Pretty impresive if you ask me(I have #1 all-time on my top pitchers list) He is also one of the most quotable athletes of all-time

Anybody else have anything do add or discuss, possibly you do or do not have him #1 on your list? Or perhaps some interesting stories about Satchel?

538280

07-29-2006, 10:30 AM

I used to be a huge Satchel fan, I had him #4 all time...until yesterday. I've been getting into Negro League statistical analysis lately, and at Baseball Think Factory they've gotten a pretty reliable statistical base and are starting to make MLE projections based on ACTUAL Negro League data (if you look for it, there's more out there than you think really. Most people just dimiss saying there are no stats available for Negro Leaguers, that isn't really true. These people have proven that.) Anyway, the statistical analysis shows Paige being still a certain HOFer, but as having a rather overrated reputation. My new ranking for him will probably be about #20 or so. John Holway has actual statistics for Negro Leaguers, this is what he had for Paige (posted on that site by Gary A). These are not MLEs or projections, they are Paige's actual Negro League numbers:

1927 8-3, .738 wp 2nd in league. 4th in team dec. 2.0 WAT
1928 13-4, 5th in wins, .765 wp 4th, 3.06 TRA 2nd, 112 K 2nd. 3rd in team dec. 6.2 WAT
1929 11-11, 194 K 1st. 1st in team dec. (tie). 4.3 WAT
1930 9-4, 3.07 TRA 3rd. 4th in team dec. 3.4 WAT
1931 6-3 for Clv., 1-2 for Pgh. 2.0 WAT Clv, -0.8 WAT Pgh, 1.2 WAT total
1932 21-9, 1st in wins, .700 wp 4th, 2.79 TRA 2nd, 113 K 1st. 1st in team dec. 4.5 WAT
1933 7-9, 3.50 TRA 5th, 69 K 1st. 2nd in team dec., -3.5 WAT.
1934 20-5, 2nd in wins, .800 wp 3rd, 1.84 TRA 1st, 134 K 1st. GSA. 1st in team dec., 2.1 WAT
1935 In Bismarck
1936 11-3, 1st in wins, .786 wp 1st, 3.15 TRA 4th, 68 K 1st, GSA, all-star. 1st in team dec., 3.5 WAT
1937 8-2 in Santa Domingo
1938 0-1 in Mexico in 3 games (arm trouble develops)
1939 pitching for KC Monarchs “B” Team (minor-league equivalent)
19-3 in Puerto Rican winter league (1st in wins, 3rd in TRA, 1st in K)
1940 2-0. Not in top 5 dec., 0.4 WAT
1941 7-0, 2nd in wins, 1st in wp, 2.11 TRA 3rd, 1st in K. 2nd in team dec., 1.8 WAT
1942 7-5, 3rd in wins, 1.95 TRA 3rd (in league & on team), 42 K 1st. 1st in team dec. –2.7 WAT
1943 9-15 for KC, 1-0 for Mem., 3rd in wins, 71 K 1st. 1st in team dec., -5.1 WAT
1944 5-6. 1st in team dec., 0.2 WAT
1945 5-9. 1st in team dec., -3.8 WAT
1946 5-1. 1.32 TRA 1st in league, 27 K 3rd. 4th in team dec., 0.6 WAT
1947 1-1. Not in top 5 dec., -0.6 WAT
1948-49 in majors
1950 No data
1951-53 in majors

Career Totals
147-88, .626 adding numbers above
147-92, .630 according to Holway (147-92 is a .615 wp, of course)
14.5 WAT (was 23.7 WAT from 1927-1936

WAT is wins above team. I'm inclined to think Satchel was better than these numbers, because he was probably always going up against the ace of the other team as he was a huge gate attraction. But in sum I don't think it's a bold statement given his data that his reputation exceeds him. Still a great pitcher, though.

Da Penguin

07-29-2006, 10:31 AM

In MLB 06' The Show it says he was a relief pitcher is that true?

538280

07-29-2006, 10:32 AM

In MLB 06' The Show it says he was a relief pitcher is that true?

When he played in the major leagues (far past his prime) he was.

CanadianKid

07-29-2006, 12:03 PM

He made up names for his pitches. The fastball, bat dodger, hesitation pitch and some others.

He was said to be able to throw strikes over a cigarette which was used as home plate, and was said to have told his outfield and infield to sit down during 1 inning of a game and promptly struck out the next 3 batters.

Baseball Guru

07-29-2006, 12:13 PM

at Baseball Think Factory they've gotten a pretty reliable statistical base and are starting to make MLE projections based on ACTUAL Negro League data (if you look for it, there's more out there than you think really. Most people just dimiss saying there are no stats available for Negro Leaguers, that isn't really true. These people have proven that.).

Could you provide a link where I can look at this? I couldn't find anything on it at the site.. (lots of info at that site);)

Thanks:)

SHOELESSJOE3

07-29-2006, 12:55 PM

of the following stats are estimates of his career totals:

[CODE]First star of the Negro Leagues inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame

Estimated 300 career shutouts

Estimated 2000 or more wins

Estimated 300 shutouts, even if an estimate thats 21 more shutouts than Walter Johnson, Alexander and Mathewson combined. Estimated 2000 wins, I'm not buying either even if only estimates.

There is no doubt this guy was some pitcher, Dimaggio and a number of other MLB players have said he was one of the toughest they faced but lets come back to the real world. These estimates and word of mouth stories about Paige and Gibson are hard to swallow.

Blackout

07-29-2006, 01:03 PM

300 shut outs is believable if he played against high school squads in 200 of them

brett

07-29-2006, 01:10 PM

The only real question I have about Paige is, with his loose throwing style could he have been a unique player-one who could have gone twice in a 4 man rotation for example during his prime.

My Dad says that while the Monarchs were considered to be slightly inferior to KC's minor league Blues, that there was real suspicion that Paige could have stepped in and been the best pitcher in the Majors in a minute.

Estimated 300 shutouts, even if an estimate thats 21 more shutouts than Walter Johnson, Alexander and Mathewson combined. Estimated 2000 wins, I'm not buying either even if only estimates.

There is no doubt this guy was some pitcher, Dimaggio and a number of other MLB players have said he was one of the toughest they faced but lets come back to the real world. These estimates and word of mouth stories about Paige and Gibson are hard to swallow.

538280

07-29-2006, 02:08 PM

Could you provide a link where I can look at this? I couldn't find anything on it at the site.. (lots of info at that site);)

Thanks:)

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/satchel_paige

Baseball Guru

07-29-2006, 04:24 PM

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/satchel_paige

Thank you:)

Williamsburg2599

07-29-2006, 05:56 PM

Estimated 300 shutouts, even if an estimate thats 21 more shutouts than Walter Johnson, Alexander and Mathewson combined. Estimated 2000 wins, I'm not buying either even if only estimates.

There is no doubt this guy was some pitcher, Dimaggio and a number of other MLB players have said he was one of the toughest they faced but lets come back to the real world. These estimates and word of mouth stories about Paige and Gibson are hard to swallow.
I also find it a little hard to beleve, but a reminder that he played baseball
24-7-365 for decades, so somewhere in the one thousand range wouldn't shock me.

Sultan_1895-1948

07-29-2006, 06:57 PM

Those projections are pretty laughable. I've heard the 300 shutouts one before, but the 2000 wins is, well, nevermind imo.

While we're at it though.

In 1933 he was said to have a 31-4 record with 64 consecutive scoreless innings and 21 straight wins.

Satchel said he tossed 55 no-hitters in his career. You might too if you faced local police department teams, American Legion, amateurs, etc.

This is what bugs me. I have a feeling that the actual Satchel is very impressive, but when bogus numbers are thrown around it detracts from the true layers underneath the phony glitz. Let him stand on his own. Unless of course, those under-layers actually aren't that impressive. Scary thought for some.

538280

07-29-2006, 08:10 PM

Did you see his actual Negro League stats, Sultan, and that link I gave? It seems to me like Satch's reputation (and these bogus numbers thrown around, which you're probably right are nothing more than anecdotal really) is overblown.

I like Satchel, though. He seems to be a great man who loved to play and enjoy the game. But let's not focus on the unsubstantiated myths, legends, and anecdotes here.

Sockeye

07-31-2006, 11:22 AM

I highly doubt Paige pitched in 2000 games much less won 2000 games.

jalbright

07-31-2006, 11:34 AM

Old Mike

07-31-2006, 01:12 PM

It's possible he pitched in 2000 games, pitching three or four innings in many starts as part of a way to draw fans. This was an agreed upon approach which yielded financial benefits to Satch, his teams, and teammates, since the Negro Leagues tended to pay largely by percentages of the team's take for the game. However, when you pitch only three or four innings, you don't get the win. I don't believe he won 2000 games in his professional career.

Jim Albright

I have actually looked at a number of those Paige games in the late 1930s and the war years when he pitched just the first four innings of games on a routine basis. Since these games were "exhibition" and not part of any official league, Paige was often listed as the "winning pitcher." In one quote from that period he stated that he started 80 games in one season and pitched 500 innings.

jalbright

07-31-2006, 02:09 PM

Well, Satch told more than a few tall tales, so I'd take his statements with at least a shake or two of salt. But unless that 80 game/500 inning estimate is on the low side, over a 30 year career, thats 2400 starts at most. Good as Satch was, I don't think he won 5 out of six starts against top caliber opposition. If you include semipro teams, his winning percentage would obviously increase.

Jim Albright

Old Mike

07-31-2006, 03:26 PM

I am not disagreeing but rather just reporting a few observations. I think Paige may have won between 800 and 1000 games if one is willing to accept all of his work at worthy.

Old Mike

07-31-2006, 03:32 PM

I don't think 2,000 pitched game was an unobtainable number. Major League teams usually played semipro teams on Sundays where professional baseball was banned and the local crowd usually demanded to see the big names. I am sure guys like Lefty Grove pitched to a few batters or a inning in between his major league asignments in those situations. Paige was always the star attraction so I would guess that he often pitched six or seven days in a row in short inning situations - either the first or last inning of a game. It was for the entertainment value. After all, it is show biz.

DTF955

07-31-2006, 04:23 PM

I'd say our opinions are pretty close, 538280. I used to think he was the best ever. But, one negro league poll picked Joe Williams over him in 952, I think. And, I'm sure some of the stuff is exaggerated. Paige was a showman, and I can see approaching 500-750 wins, but even 1000 would be hard.

Does anyone have video of that windup? I know it was pretty unusual, which may have thrown a lot of hitters off. Also, he had impeccable control.

I still think he was a great pitcher, now I'm inclined to think of Greg Maddux when I think of Paige; except I hdn't realized that he was considered that fast.

I still remember this one story I wrote in my high school years when i was bored about what Paige's career would have been like. It involved him winning over 400 games, and then Bill Veeck taking him on as a player and Paige desiring to pitch just long enough to pass Cy Young's mark...it took him 10 years with Veeck and he finally did it in 1958, ending his career 513-210 or somesuch.

Now, i don't think he would have done that in his career; I think his win-loss totals would have been Maddux-like, with a few times coming in in relief as Maddux has done in playoffs. (And like Randy Johnson. Imagi9ne him and Dizzy Dean pulling a 2001 Diamondbacks like Johnson and Schilling :-)

Bench 5

07-31-2006, 06:00 PM

The book Shades of Glory includes statistics compiled as part of the Hall of Fame sponsored study done to commemorate the 2006 special induction ceremony.

Here are the stats that they post for his entire Negro League career:
G - 263
W - 103
L - 61
W% - .628
SO - 25
IP - 1506.7
H - 1174
BB - 253
K - 1231
K/9 - 7.39
SV - 11
ERA - 2.02

Combined Major League and Negro League Stats
G - 442
W - 131
L - 92
W% - .587
SO - 29
IP - 1982.7
H - 1603
BB - 433
K - 1519
K/9 - 6.90
SV - 43
ERA - 2.32

I've read so many accounts of how well he performed against major leaguers in his prime that its hard to discount him as the best of his era. It's either him or Lefty Grove. I've seen some of the boxscores from when he pitched against teams consisting of former or future major leaguers in the California Winter Leagues. He was pretty dominant with multiple double-digit K games. It's not the same as a major league game but I have no doubt he would have been a 300 game winner if he pitched his entire career in the majors.

Williamsburg2599

07-31-2006, 08:50 PM

Does anybody know how he threw some of the pitches he invented? Some of their names:
Bat Dodger
Hurry-Up Ball
Midnight Rider
Four-Day Creeper
Nothin’
Bee Ball
Jump Ball
Trouble Ball
The Two-Hump Blooper
Long Tom
The Barber
Little Tom

CanadianKid

07-31-2006, 08:57 PM

Well from what i read the pitch he called "hesitation" was thrown by slowering his delivery and he slowed his arm action and took longer for the pitch to get to the plate, basically hesitating to get the ball to the plate.

I'm guessing some of his other pitches might have been curveballs or knuckleballs but he just gave them a different name.

Bill Burgess

07-31-2006, 09:47 PM

Robert LeRoy Paige:
Someone indicated they felt it unfair to place Paige so high, ahead of others with verifiable stats in the MLs. Funny. I'll bet Paige and a lot of other NLs felt it was unfair, letting their white competition into the highest classification of ball, while they were being forcibly restrained from posting their verifiable stats in the MLs. It always looks different from the other side of the fence. When it comes to unfairness, who REALLY got the short end?

He was born July 7, 1906.
This same opinion was shared by Ted Williams, whom Satch struck out, Dizzy Dean and Bob Feller. And called him the fastest & the best they had ever seen, when they saw him in the 1930's. Satch told them he was born in '06, so they wouldn't pass on him, like they did on Charleston and Gibson. He was 6'4, 180. After Satch left the MLs, he pitched in the minor leagues from '56-58, '61, '65-'66, Indianapolis Clowns, '67. So he pitched for money until he was 61 yrs. old.

As a kid, he carried suitcases at the train station for tips. Once he tried to steal a man's satchel but the owner ran him down and smacked him upside the head while recovering his property. A chum saw the incident and gave him the nickname "Satchel," which young LeRoy hated. Later, he re-invented versions of the tale, to cast himself in a better light.

Later, he was caught stealing costume jewelry, sent to Mt. Meigs reform school, where he aquired some pitching polish. Pitching for the Pittsburgh Crawfords during the early 1930's, he compiled 32-7, 31-4, in '32-'33.

He had many salary disputes with Greenlee, and left the team sometimes. During these vacations, he pitched for Bismarck, ND with a white semipro club. He is credited with winning 134 of 150 games. He beat Schoolboy Rowe and a team of MLer in Oct. 1935. In '36, he went 24-3 with the Pittsburgh Crawfords.

Starting in latter 1939, he pitched for the Kansas City Monarchs' for a decade. In 1942, his team swept the powerful Homestead Grays in the Negro L. World Series, with Satch himself winning 3 or the games.

Like most pitchers, Paige thought he was a good hitter, but he was really a relatively weak hitter and only an average fielder. However, somtimes in the Caribbean winter leagues he would play at first base, and he did adequately there. In the '39-40 Puerto Rican winter league, he led the team to the pennant with 19-3, 1.93 ERA, with 208 strikeouts in 205 innings and 6 shutouts in 24 games. He played in the California winter league. Joe DiMaggio and Babe Herman declared Paige was the toughest pitcher to hit they ever faced. When Bill Beeck brought him to the Big Time, Satch responed with a 6-1 record and a 2.48 ERA down the stretch to help Cleveland to clinch it. Inducted into Hall in '71, and passed away June 8, 1982.

Personally, I feel he would have won between 350-400 games if given the chance, and believe his fastball to have been betwee 95 -100 mph. I feel he is a top 10 all time pitcher.

Bill Burgess

Old Mike

08-01-2006, 02:59 AM

Bill,

What is your primary source for the 1900 birth?

DTF955

08-01-2006, 05:46 AM

Personally, I feel he would have won between 350-400 games if given the chance, and believe his fastball to have been betwee 95 -100 mph. I feel he is a top 10 all time pitcher.

Bill Burgess

Amazing - I'm curious where the 190 quote comes from, too, because all the sources I've read say that he varied it but that it was really 1906.

Why do the stats suggest he started at age 21? That actually seems like a normal age for hurlers to start; 27 seems awfully late, since they had Negro League teams before then.

I agree, 350 sounds quite doable, I remarked about maddux thinking of this era, but he'd have won more in another era, too...maybe Mathewson's more like it? Perhaps 1-2 30-win seasons even in the 1920s-1930s?

Would have been great to see Paige/Dean or Paige/Grove matchups. In trying to formulate the skeleton of my "If Baseball integrated Early" book, pitchers are the toughest ones to figure, though, because part depends on what team they play for.

Bill Burgess

08-01-2006, 07:19 AM

Bill,

What is your primary source for the 1900 birth?

Double-Duty Radcliffe:
"Satchel and I were born in the same town, Mobile. Satchel didn't tell them when he was with Cleveland, but he was born in 1900. He's a few years older than me, and I was born in 1904."

This was asserted by Ted Radcliffe, a well-known Negro League catcher/pitcher, who played with Satchel, and knew him in their home town, Mobile, AL.

This means that when Paige finally made the MLs in 1948, he was already 48 years old! Older than Nolan Ryan when Nolan retired!

And he pitched in the MLs until 1953, when he was 53 yrs. old. And he pitched in the minors until he was 67!!

(Voices From the Great Black Baseball Leagues, by John Holway, 1975, pp. 172.)

Bill

DTF955

08-01-2006, 07:49 AM

So, how does that explain his not being int he Negro Leagues till he was 27 - could he have been in the reform school that long? Or, would he simply have enjoyed playing with semipro clubs and not wanting to stick to one Negro League club till '27?

baseballPAP

08-01-2006, 09:02 AM

538280

08-01-2006, 10:21 AM

My just finished Satch MLB projection:
www.geocities.com/baseball_pap/paige_s.htm

I projected him to the 4 man rotation of MLB, and also to pitch quite a bit in relief. Although I'm not sure he compares very well to anyone...I listed Lefty Grove as the closest, and I think that is accurate.

You have Paige being MUCH than the BBTF people do. Might want to check out what they have to say. They have him about 4600 IP and a 113 ERA+ I believe. I showed his actual Negro League data earlier. Seems to me to be another overrated one, but still a tremendously great pitcher.

baseballPAP

08-01-2006, 12:10 PM

Much of his success is due to his longetivity, and I don't think I can deny him that. Not when he pitched into his 50s, and even threw several hundred innings in the high minors AFTER his stint in the majors. I have him averaging about 16 or 17 wins, with a big peak that I need to adjust downward. Paige was injured for much of the 38 and 39 seasons, and in 40 was a different pitcher. An adjustment had to be made there that kept him from being Nolan Ryan with good control!

I still have him about where I did before...hovering around #10 somewhere. However, now that I look at it, the projections I have given him would have had him leading the league in ERA almost every year by a large margin...I need to work on that some.

All of my projections tend to ebb and flow a bit as I try and take into account as much information as I can find.

Bill Burgess

08-01-2006, 01:31 PM

baseballPAP

08-02-2006, 04:50 AM

It doesn't, and I can't.

Bill
I tend to suspect that Paige may have "planted" a phony birthday of 1900. He was all about adding to his own legend, and that seems like an easy way to do so....people automatically knew he was trying to hide something because he wouldn't give his birthday. Then he enlists a childhood friend in his cause to say 1900.

I have absolutely no evidence of this...just a feeling.

Bill Burgess

10-06-2006, 09:43 AM

Bill,

What is your primary source for the 1900 birth?

Well, it appears I was wrong. Radcliffe must have lied. I was able to track down a very good source which does indicate that Paige was born in 1906, after all. The 1910 US Federal Census. The family would have had no motive to falsify their entire family for a 4 year old child.

I'd searched it many times, but what threw me off was that I was always looking for a Paige, when the family actually spelled it, 'Page'. I found that in Paige's autobiography. So I looked for a Leroy Page. And there it was.

Listed his Dad as John, a gardener, and Lula, a washerwoman. Paige wrote his book in 1961, way before they released the census information.

In his book, Paige says that his dad was a gardener, but liked to be called a landscaper, and his mom was a washemwoman. In the census, it lists his Dad as a landscaper, and his mom as a washerwoman. Also lists all his siblings. John, Jr., Wilson, Ruth, Julia, Emma, Ellen.

http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7884&iid=ALT624_27-1160&fn=Leroy&ln=Page&st=r&ssrc=&pid=159067738

Oh, well. All's well that ends well. Finally found it. The 1910 Federal census, conducted on April 21, 1910, lists Leroy's age as 4.

Bill Burgess

10-19-2006, 02:38 PM

Baseball Think Factory (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=579855&postcount=39)---Satchel Paige data from Shades of Glory (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=591900&postcount=62)---Satchel Paige bio from negroleaguebaseball.com (http://www.negroleaguebaseball.com/players/Paige.html)

------Satchel Paige, 1956, Miami Marlins, age 50---------------------------------------1941, Yankee Stadium
------BB Ref (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/paigesa01.shtml)--------------------------------------------------------------Note the arm angle. Did ole Satch throw the screwball?
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/Image5-4.jpghttp://img212.imageshack.us/img212/882/satchgif4zz5.gif

---------------Satchel Paige, Cleveland P, 1948-49
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/Image11.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/Image31-2.jpg

Pete Alexander looks on.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/Satch-1.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/klkkjjj-1.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Negro%20Leagues/paige1-2.jpg

Williamsburg2599

10-19-2006, 03:54 PM

Well, it appears I was wrong. Radcliffe must have lied. I was able to track down a very good source which does indicate that Paige was born in 1906, after all. The 1910 US Federal Census. The family would have had no motive to falsify their entire family for a 4 year old child.

I'd searched it many times, but what threw me off was that I was always looking for a Paige, when the family actually spelled it, 'Page'. I found that in Paige's autobiography. So I looked for a Leroy Page. And there it was.

Listed his Dad as John, a gardener, and Lula, a washerwoman. Paige wrote his book in 1961, way before they released the census information.

In his book, Paige says that his dad was a gardener, but liked to be called a landscaper, and his mom was a washemwoman. In the census, it lists his Dad as a landscaper, and his mom as a washerwoman. Also lists all his siblings. John, Jr., Wilson, Ruth, Julia, Emma, Ellen.

http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7884&iid=ALT624_27-1160&fn=Leroy&ln=Page&st=r&ssrc=&pid=159067738

Oh, well. All's well that ends well. Finally found it.
Very nice work, Bill, you've discovered something that many baseball historians don't know. Joe Morgon was talking about how his Birth year is such a mystery the other day during a play-off game. Not any more:clapping.

SHOELESSJOE3

10-19-2006, 04:21 PM

As usual Bill.... you do your thing, very well. Great shots of Satch.

Bill Burgess

10-19-2006, 10:32 PM

Thanks, guys. I wasn't sure if you had to have a subscription to Ancestry to open the link. Were both of you guys able to open it and see the entries for Paige, listed 'Page'?

Bill

Williamsburg2599

10-20-2006, 12:59 PM

Thanks, guys. I wasn't sure if you had to have a subscription to Ancestry to open the link. Were both of you guys able to open it and see the entries for Paige, listed 'Page'?

Bill
No, unfortanitly, It said I had to sign up for Ancestry.com.

Rookie1914

10-24-2006, 09:13 PM

I highly doubt Paige pitched in 2000 games much less won 2000 games.

I couldn't agree more, however I am a huge fan of Satchel's even though I never saw him pitch. They say he used to sit in the bullpen when he made it to the majors in a rocking chair. That is great!

The Kid

12-18-2006, 05:42 PM

A few more Satch pics:
http://www.hopkinscounty.us/dawsonsprings/tp/Some%20Baseball%20Greats/Satchel%20Paige.jpghttp://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/photos/Paige_Satchel1942.jpghttp://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a0/Satchel_Paige_2.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/882/satchgif4zz5.gif

The Kid

12-18-2006, 05:46 PM

I have some questions about Satch. Can anybody answer them?

1. What pitches did Satch throw? (curve, knuckleball, any real pitch)

2. How fast was Satch's fastball in his prime?

3. Is it true Satch didn't have a wind-up?

4. How old was Satch when he retired from barnstorming baseball?

crzblue

03-24-2007, 10:15 PM

I caught the movie "The Wonderful Country" today on TCM with Robert Mitchum and noticed that Sachel Paige is also in that movie! The movie was made in 1959 so he was 53!

Williamsburg2599

03-24-2007, 10:28 PM

I have some questions about Satch. Can anybody answer them?

1. What pitches did Satch throw? (curve, knuckleball, any real pitch)
Basically name a pitch and he threw it. 2 seam, 4 seam, curve, slider, knuckle, heck, he may of even threw a version of the cutter or gyro before they even had names like that. Who knows. He had aleast 13 "unique" pitches that only he threw. If I was a pitcher, I would want him as my coach over any other man who has ever lived.

2. How fast was Satch's fastball in his prime?
Who knows. Quotes from other ML and NeL players would probably say it best:
"Satchel Paige was the toughest pitcher I ever faced. I couldn't do much with him. All the years I played there, I never got a hit off of him. He threw fire." - Buck Leonard

"It starts out like a baseball and when it gets to the plate, it looks like a marble." - Hack Wilson

"My fastball looks like a change of pace alongside that little pistol bullet Satchel (Paige) shoots up to the plate." - Dizzy Dean

3. Is it true Satch didn't have a wind-up?
He did, and he didn't. He threw from every position and every angle known to man.

4. How old was Satch when he retired from barnstorming baseball?
From what I know, it was in 1966 with the semipro Anchorage Earthquakers

Bill Burgess

03-24-2007, 10:49 PM

3. Is it true Satch didn't have a wind-up?
He did, and he didn't. He threw from every position and every angle known to man.
I think he was an improvisational pitcher. He wound up for some and not for others. I've seen photos of him wind-milling his arm, so he did for some, at least.

Bill

Williamsburg2599

03-25-2007, 03:47 PM

I think he was an improvisational pitcher. He would up for some and not for others. I've seen photos of him wind-milling his arm, so he did for some, at least.

Bill
Very true. Satchel himself told it best:

I use my single windup, my double windup, my triple windup, my hesitation windup, my no windup. I also use my step-n-pitch-it, my submariner, my sidearmer, and my bat dodger. Man's got to do what he's got to do. -Satchel Paige

Dogdaze

03-27-2007, 01:47 PM

Joe DiMaggio called Satchel Paige "the best and fastest pitcher I've ever faced" and Bob Feller and Ted Williams concurred that Satchel was "the greatest pitcher in baseball."

Ted Williams told of batting against Satchel Paige. Paige joined the league at the age of 42 with the Cleveland Indians. Now that they faced each other in the American League, "Well, I want to tell you, he had a nice easy windup and a nice, easy hesitation pitch, and good conrol. He'd give you that nice easy motion, then he'd stop, and there it was! All that time I was hitting up there, I was thinking, 'Boy, this guy must have been some kind of pitcher, this guy must have been some kind of pitcher.'" While Ted was admiring Satch's easy style, he suddenly realized, he had gone to bat five times with only one hit. "To hell with this," he muttered, "I"ve got to go to work!" In their next face-off, "Paige gives me that double windup, got his hands right in back of his ahead and turned his wrist. Everybody in the park saw it - he made damn sure I saw it. I said, 'Jesus, curve ball.' And, whoom, fastball, strike three."

"I caught Satchel in his heyday, when nobody was like Satchel, nobody had the control Satchel had. . . Satchel didn't get a curve ball until 1938. He never did develop a good curve, but it was good enough to keep them off stride, because with that fast ball he didn't need it. I haven't seen anybody living with the speed Satchel had. I played against Bob Feller and all of them. I'm not saying this because he's colored, now, but Satchel's the greatest pitcher ever lived!" - Double-Duty Radcliffe

metrotheme

06-10-2007, 05:33 PM

I'm planning to write to the 3 major league catchers who caught him who are still alive (I think his negro league counterparts have passed) and ask their opinion.

Tyrus4189Cobb

06-11-2007, 07:06 PM

Forgive me if this has nothing to do whit whatever you guys were discussing but I was very curios and I just jumped into the thread.

How did Paige do in the Negro Leagues? I know there isn't exact statsitics and I also know little of how he faired.

Bill Burgess

06-11-2007, 07:44 PM

Satchel Paige on Video. See his legendary delivery! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gsabFEZbnU

jjfighter1

07-15-2007, 07:30 PM

Satchel Paige was the best of all time. He was a great pitcher and a great showman.
I have a blog dedicated to negro league baseball at http://www.negro-baseball-league.com.

Dogdaze

07-16-2007, 10:04 PM

Satchel Paige was the best of all time. He was a great pitcher and a great showman.
I have a blog dedicated to negro league baseball at http://www.negro-baseball-league.com.

I like your Blog, well done jjfighter1. :applaud:

Great article on Paige in your blog, interesting that it mentions him being clocked at 103 for a fastball;

The Amazing Story of Satchel Paige: http://negro-baseball-league.com/blog/the-amazing-story-of-satchel-paige.html

Paige, whose fastball was once clocked at 103 miles per hour, never performed for a major league team until he was well into his forties

No wonder Double Duty Radcliffe said he would wrap a steak in a handkerchief inside his mitt for extra padding against Paige's fastballs.

Brian McKenna

07-17-2007, 01:33 PM

What are the specifics of the supposed 103-mph pitch?

date, circumstance, method

metrotheme

08-16-2007, 11:00 AM

Dogdaze

08-21-2007, 12:36 PM

I wrote the three living major league catchers that he had (Les Moss, Matt Batts and Billy Bryan). None of them would comment about Satchel Paige's pitching in the major leagues (what he threw, velocity, mannerisms, stories). One of them even wrote back that they're not allowed to comment on their teammates.

I spoke with Marty Marion on the phone and he said Satchel didn't have much by the time he got to the Browns and marched to the beat of his own drum.

Very interesting, but it seems strange that the one of his former catchers said he couldn't comment on his former teamate, since we hear comments all the time about former teamates. I'm guessing he just doesn't care to comment. Oh well.

bkmckenna: What are the specifics of the supposed 103-mph pitch?

date, circumstance, method

I'm curious about this too, the article which jjfighter1 has on his blog doesn't mention specifics. I was hoping jjfighter1 would post again with this info, and maybe he still will come back and answer these questions. :shrug:

metrotheme

09-10-2007, 08:04 PM

Very interesting, but it seems strange that the one of his former catchers said he couldn't comment on his former teamate, since we hear comments all the time about former teamates. I'm guessing he just doesn't care to comment. Oh well.

Yeah maybe after being asked for many years, they didn't want to comment. To each their own, I just figured a catcher of all people would know. They might be afraid of going on record, or don't care to be quoted ...

Bill Burgess

03-09-2008, 04:42 PM

Can anyone find this photo in better shape than this one that we have? This one is not in great shape.
37253

EdTarbusz

03-09-2008, 06:46 PM

I found something about Paige that I thought was kind of interesting. When he came to the Indians in 1948, it was a huge story and he was sought out quite a bit by reporters. By 1954 when the Browns moved to Baltimore, the same sportswriters mentioned Paige as one of the ALs least liked players.

It wouldn't surprise me if Paige was underwhelmed by his Major League experience. Right from the start in Cleveland, he had an owner who loved him, but a manager who appears not to have trusted him (the Indians bullpen was faultering in Sept, 1948 and Boudreau still went with guys like Ed Klieman instead of Paige). I don't think it's any coincidence that Paige was released shortly after Veeck sold out (and then followed Veeck to the Browns). I also think that Paige's showmanship and his marching to his drummer didn't go over real in the Majors. He had some discipline issues with Boudreau, and I'm sure he had them with other managers down the line.

EdTarbusz

03-09-2008, 08:47 PM

It's possible he pitched in 2000 games, pitching three or four innings in many starts as part of a way to draw fans. This was an agreed upon approach which yielded financial benefits to Satch, his teams, and teammates, since the Negro Leagues tended to pay largely by percentages of the team's take for the game. However, when you pitch only three or four innings, you don't get the win. I don't believe he won 2000 games in his professional career.

Jim Albright

Paige told Cleveland reporters in 1948 that he had given up throwing complete games in 1941. After that decision he would generally go about three innings per start against the other teams top pitcher. Since he could play fast and loose with the facts, I don't know how true this is.

EdTarbusz

03-09-2008, 09:17 PM