Derek Jeter an MVP candidate? [Archive]

Williamsburg2599

07-28-2006, 08:42 PM

Jeter is a proven big-hit guy as well

hes hitting .388 with RISP i believe, and that actually went up after today.

the reason I'm hesitant to give Ortiz the MVP is because his stats aren't any better than last year. home run and RBI are on pace to be about the same, but his BA is lower and his OBP is lower as a result.

and he's a DH. same with Thome.
But the stats of the person who came in front of him last year to win it (A-rod) have gone down, so I think he has a better shot than last year.

Blackout

07-28-2006, 08:46 PM

but Thome has been just as good as Ortiz in my opinion, its hard to really chose one over the other

geezer

07-28-2006, 08:51 PM

I'll say that I also believe that Derek Jeter is a great MVP candidate this year. He has proved that he is more clutch hitter than A-Rod himself, and also remember, he is the team captain, and has acted like one and has served as an example for the ballclub.

Yankee Legend

07-28-2006, 09:08 PM

It depends on how Yankees do. I would like him to be the mvp. really, since rickey henderson how many non-power hitters have won it?

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-28-2006, 10:24 PM

Absolutely not....Jeter is one of today's most overrated players....and if a nonpower hitter is to win the award ill be damned if its gonna be that media hyped yankee who breaks that stereotype.

insanefishpossay

07-28-2006, 10:30 PM

rockin500

07-28-2006, 10:57 PM

but Thome has been just as good as Ortiz in my opinion, its hard to really chose one over the other
i couldnt give it to ortiz unless they make it. if the white sox make it and thome continues even remotely close to his rate, he deserves the MVP. (and this comes from a cubs fan)

problem in the AL is their is once again no real DOMINATING force. no Pujols or some such so it will probably depend on the races.

Edgartohof

07-28-2006, 11:06 PM

It depends on how Yankees do. I would like him to be the mvp. really, since rickey henderson how many non-power hitters have won it?
Well, Ichiro for one.

Terry Pendelton for 2, and Dennis Eckersly for 3.

Texas Rangers

07-28-2006, 11:10 PM

Absolutely not....Jeter is one of today's most overrated players....and if a nonpower hitter is to win the award ill be damned if its gonna be that media hyped yankee who breaks that stereotype.

Jeter is overrated? are you joking?

-1996 AL rookie of the Year
-Led the Yankees to 4 World Series CHAMPIONSHIPS
-2000 World Series MVP
-2nd best batting average in the AL
-4th in AL in hits
-7th in AL in SB
-.975 fielding %
-In the top 20 in the AL in runs, doubles, triples, BB, and AB
-comes up with clutch hits when his team needs him.

what is overrated about the best shortstop in the MLB?

AznInvasion

07-29-2006, 12:17 AM

I think it depends on who makes it to playoffs...yanks better win AL East if they want to get in. I hate Jeter as much as anybody...in fact he might be my least favorite player, but I buy him as an MVP candidate this year sadly! I don't think he's the only yankee who's a viable candidate though...Jason Giambi is doing quite well cept for his .avg and Rivera has done well as usual. Ok I think I've exceeded my limit for praising my least favorite team. Other non-power hitting guys who could be MVP:
Jose Reyes, Mike Young and Joe Mauer to name a few.

Texas Rangers

07-29-2006, 01:06 AM

Well I think Jim Thome is having a better season than Ortiz. I just think Thome is hitting the ball better than he has been in the past few years. I think Ortiz is hitting the ball amazing, but not as well as Thome is. But i honestly think that neither will win it.

-Joe Mauer
-Derek Jeter
-David Wright
-Ryan Howard
-Albert Pujols
-Alfonso Soriano

I think one of those guys will win it.

Mattingly

07-29-2006, 08:58 AM

Absolutely not....Jeter is one of today's most overrated players....and if a nonpower hitter is to win the award ill be damned if its gonna be that media hyped yankee who breaks that stereotype.
Ichiro Suzuki was also a non-power hitter who'd won the MVP in 2001, his rookie season. He was also very highly hyped.

Regardless of the NYC hype, I still would consider Derek Jeter very valuable to the team.

For the DHs, I can see strong competition from Messrs Ortiz, Thome and Hafner. However, if voters are against a DH candidate, I can see Jeter being a strong candidate, presuming that one of the pitchers, such as Liriano or Papelbon don't snare that award.

ElHalo

07-29-2006, 09:17 AM

Blackout

07-29-2006, 09:26 AM

Jeter is overrated? are you joking?

-1996 AL rookie of the Year
-Led the Yankees to 4 World Series CHAMPIONSHIPS
-2000 World Series MVP
-2nd best batting average in the AL
-4th in AL in hits
-7th in AL in SB
-.975 fielding %
-In the top 20 in the AL in runs, doubles, triples, BB, and AB
-comes up with clutch hits when his team needs him.

what is overrated about the best shortstop in the MLB?

bigstelly is the same guy who says Hoffman is better than Mariano

he needs to take off the big red nose and face paint befoire posting

The Big C

07-29-2006, 12:13 PM

Jeter can be BOTH good AND overrated. We've had this discussion many times before...

Blackout

07-29-2006, 12:36 PM

Jeter can be BOTH good AND overrated. We've had this discussion many times before...

doesn't mean he still can't be MVP :D

AznInvasion

07-29-2006, 01:38 PM

Ryan Howard has no shot cuz the Phillies won't make playoffs even though I'm a big Ryan Howard fan.

Brannu

07-29-2006, 01:43 PM

I'm far from a Yankee fan, ever since they have assumed financial power being the rule over developing young players. However, it is very hard to argue againt Derek Jeter's greatness, whether you hate the yankees or not. It's sort of like trying to say that Pujols is overrated. They deserve the hype that they receive because they are THAT good.

I like Mauer as a hitter, not as an MVP candidate. He may be getting a lot of hits, but, outside of that ... I would expect more runs scored and rbi's out of the 3-hole. But, he is a good hitter and a good catcher. Plus, at this stage, I don't think he's The Twins most valuable player. Maybe most valuable hitter, but, not player. Without Liriano and Santana that's a sunken ship.

When you look at the injuries that The Yankees have had and you notice how consistently good Jeter has been in the absence of Matsui and Sheffield, while stepping up underneath the radar of A-Rod's defensive and at times offensive woes - it's hard to deny him.

However, everyone remembers how Vlad won The MVP award on the strength of a two weak tear at the end of the season that pushed his team into the post-season in 2004. That, again, is a possibility for this year. Not only for him, but for other players. When it's crunch time - the true stars come out.

September will be a great month, as it always is.

csh19792001

07-29-2006, 01:44 PM

In my mind, it's either Jeter or Mauer, though I'm leaning more toward Mauer, especially if the Twins make the playoffs (which I don't see happening; I think either the Yanks or Red Sox will take the WC over the slipping White Sox and the too-hot-to-maintain Twins).

Right now I'd give it to Mauer, because if he ended the season with these rate stats (and the commensurate counting stats at that point), we'd be talking about an alltime great season, given that he's a catcher.

Still, I don't see this holding up through the end of September at all, whereas Jeter is a proven veteran who has been playing the best baseball of his life these past two years. He's actually on pace to drive in 100 runs, which he only did once (and only came close to doing once, actually). Although, he hit exclusively leadoff last year, and hasn't led off a game yet this year (probably has something to do with it). I think Knoblauch was leading of in 99', when Jeter had his MVP year and drove in 102.

ElHalo

07-29-2006, 01:57 PM

Still, I don't see this holding up through the end of September at all, whereas Jeter is a proven veteran who has been playing the best baseball of his life these past two years. He's actually on pace to drive in 100 runs, which he only did once (and only came close to doing once, actually). Although, he hit exclusively leadoff last year, and hasn't led off a game yet this year (probably has something to do with it). I think Knoblauch was leading of in 99', when Jeter had his MVP year and drove in 102.

Before anybody jumps on Chris, yes, he knows Jeter didn't win the MVP in '99. But he was EASILY the best player in the AL, and deserved it that year.

I agree. Catchers generally don't get better down the stretch... especially young catchers that haven't really gotten used to the grind of a 162 game schedule behind the plate. It's absolutely bewildering to me that Jeter is appearing to get better as he transitions from early 30's to mid 30's... that's basically unprecedented for SS's.

csh19792001

07-29-2006, 03:12 PM

Before anybody jumps on Chris, yes, he knows Jeter didn't win the MVP in '99. But he was EASILY the best player in the AL, and deserved it that year.

I agree. Catchers generally don't get better down the stretch... especially young catchers that haven't really gotten used to the grind of a 162 game schedule behind the plate. It's absolutely bewildering to me that Jeter is appearing to get better as he transitions from early 30's to mid 30's... that's basically unprecedented for SS's.

Thanks, Jim. Mea Culpa about the MVP faux pas. He sure as hell SHOULD have won. Pudge? Nah.

Jeter:
-He came within a couple hits of a batting title.
-Led the majors in hits
-Led majors in times on base
-Second in runs scored
-Fourth in total bases
-Finished second to Manny in OPS+
-Finished third in OBP, despite not being a slugger- only Manny (bad fielder at the weakest defensive position) and Edgar (didn't field) were higher.

And I know it doesn't count officially, but Jeter absolutely killed in the postseason that year.

Blackout

07-29-2006, 06:17 PM

jeter's 99 is definetely up there in all time seasons by a shortstop

definetely got robbed of MVP

KCGHOST

07-29-2006, 10:34 PM

I have no problem with Jeter being seriously considered as an MVP candidate. We need to let the seaon play out before getting real serious about anyone's MVP chances.

yankillaz

07-29-2006, 11:40 PM

Jete's best MVP chances were in 1999. But i have to recognize that he's got good chances this season. But he won't win. Big Papi, Vlad, Manny, Thome, Morneau, Mauer and Wells have better chances.

But, hey, he already won two undeserving Gold Gloves, so who knows?

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-30-2006, 12:31 AM

bigstelly is the same guy who says Hoffman is better than Mariano

he needs to take off the big red nose and face paint befoire posting

I stand by that claim because the best closer in my mind is the one with the best save percentage.
OK as far as elaborating... ESPN and other sports networks i have seen put Jeter in the same category as Joe Montana or Micheal Jordan for their perspective sports, if he wasnt a yankee that would not happen, jeter is extremely good. But is not that sort of a legend....

HOOTIE

07-30-2006, 01:55 AM

I stand by that claim because the best closer in my mind is the one with the best save percentage.
OK as far as elaborating... ESPN and other sports networks i have seen put Jeter in the same category as Joe Montana or Micheal Jordan for their perspective sports, if he wasnt a yankee that would not happen, jeter is extremely good. But is not that sort of a legend....

Save % is a bad stat, as are saves themselves. It has been proven using PW (pitching wins), that Hoffmans peak was better, but riveras career better.

Jeter isn't close to MVP this year. Thome, Mauer, Hafner, Ortiz, Manny, Wells have him beat easily.

Blackout

07-30-2006, 06:27 AM

stelly, if hoffman comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up 2 runs, he still gets a save

save % is worthless

Blackout

07-30-2006, 06:28 AM

Jeter isn't close to MVP this year. Thome, Mauer, Hafner, Ortiz, Manny, Wells have him beat easily.

but how many of those guys play short stop on a team with 2 injured all-star outfielders and a senior citizen pitching staff?

Hammerin Hank

07-30-2006, 06:56 AM

It depends on how Yankees do. I would like him to be the mvp. really, since rickey henderson how many non-power hitters have won it?

Ichiro Suzuki, Barry Larkin, and Dennis Eckersley.

csh19792001

07-30-2006, 07:11 AM

But, hey, he already won two undeserving Gold Gloves, so who knows?

Yankee hater statements abound. I should expect no less.

csh19792001

07-30-2006, 07:12 AM

Jeter isn't close to MVP this year. Thome, Mauer, Hafner, Ortiz, Manny, Wells have him beat easily.

Same thing here.

You're making the claim that they have him "beat easily" based on what?

Hammerin Hank

07-30-2006, 07:34 AM

Same thing here.

You're making the claim that they have him "beat easily" based on what?

Performance, stats, the usual.:)

Mattingly

07-30-2006, 07:35 AM

stelly, if hoffman comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up 2 runs, he still gets a save

save % is worthless
I'm wondering if BigStelly happened to see the All-Star Game. Gee, I wonder whose BLSV in a 1-run game led to another closer's chance to save the game by the same amount?

Hopefully, postseason performance counts for something. Still, let's get this back to Jeter.

I think that he's the Yankee MVP, but with outstanding offensive candidates, and perhaps you'll have the ROY/AL Cy Young winner being the same candidate, the MVP could even be a pitcher this season. While I'm not particularly enthused that a pitcher (or a DH) get an MVP when there are other qualified candidates, I don't feel it's unfathomable that Liriano or Papelbon could be considered for AL MVP this season.

Has anyone ever won ROY, Cy Young and MVP in the same season?

Mattingly

07-30-2006, 07:39 AM

Performance, stats, the usual.:)
For argument's sake, which stats are you using? Just offer the stats for the individual and we can go to work.

EDIT:

From today's Newsday, a Long Island/Queens newsdaily:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spynotes304835131jul30,0,4773941.story?coll=ny-yankees-print (scroll down please)
The inside-out of Jeter

With Derek Jeter second in the American League with a .352 batting average, Joe Torre was asked to explain his success at the plate. He pointed to Jeter's ability to hit the ball to rightfield.

"You're basically not going to get fooled very often," he said. "You're not looking to pull the ball. His ability to hit the ball to rightfield ... makes it a lot tougher to pitch to somebody who waits that long to hit the ball."

Asked about the possibility of a batting title for Jeter, Torre did not rule it out but added that he must stay healthy.

"You have to be lucky," Torre said. "I never really pictured him as a guy who's going to hit .340 or .350, but it happens. Just like in my own career, I hit .360 one year [.363 in 1971] and had a lifetime average of .290 [.297]. It doesn't mean it's something you do all the time, but if things happen to align themselves right ... "

csh19792001

07-30-2006, 09:49 AM

Performance, stats, the usual.:)

Certainly a well formed and persuasive argument there. :p

Stats? Jeter is in a virtual tie for the league lead in Win Shares with Thome, Ramirez, and Mauer.

Jeter's line for the entire month of July was .408 with a .561 slugging. This coming from a SS.

Mauer, on the other hand, is returning to reality, as was to be expected. He hit .297 with a .473 slugging.

Performance? Watch him on a day in, day out basis like I do. He sacrifices for his team when they need it, he'll lean in and get hit by pitches regularly (he has more HBP than Barry Bonds, who played for 10 years before Jeter was in the league). Jeter regularly inside-outs it, taking the ball to right field to drive runners in instead of trying to swing for the fences, the homerun, and the personal glory. He's an oustanding baserunner, and that usually can't be quantified (although it is known by fellow players, managers, and people who see him play everyday).

Look to Jeter's situational performance. When it matters most, the guy has come through this year.

Runners on: .366/.457/..503
RISP: .371/.479/.505
Men on, 2 out:.407/.507/.576
2 out/RISP is .410/.549/.590

21 steals and only 2 CS.

Yankee hating, in and of itself, doesn't make a case. All Jeter bashing does is expose the jealousy on the part of the person slinging the arrows.

Or, as I like to say, the usual.

:)

HOOTIE

07-30-2006, 10:26 AM

Yankee hater statements abound. I should expect no less.

Has nothing to do with the NYY. Jeter for his career has been below average with glove. Last year was his only year he was above average (FRAA). Uribe or Peralta should have won last year, but the GG is a joke based on name.

yankillaz

07-30-2006, 10:35 AM

Yankee hater statements abound. I should expect no less.

Yankee Fan quoted me. I knew this was coming. BTW. Are you telling me that Jeter is the best deffensive shortstop in the league. Last season he could've climbed the top 10, but in 2004 he was one of the worst. But you know, a Yankee hater with no knowledge and incredulous is writing, so who knows.

HOOTIE

07-30-2006, 10:44 AM

Same thing here.

You're making the claim that they have him "beat easily" based on what?

I guess he's closer then i thought. He's in the mix, although i don't think he should win.

Right now he's 8th in runs created and 3rd in vorp. He does play a important posotion ss, but he's only average this year using FRAA.

yankillaz

07-30-2006, 11:14 AM

Same thing here.

You're making the claim that they have him "beat easily" based on what?

Note: I wrote this, but it erased, so i'm repeating this...

Based on what???

The following:

1. Sportswriters are biased against Yankees players. And who wouldn't? 200 millions make people expect a high level of playing. If you don't play at that level, you're underachieving. Last season A-Job was the first Yankee player to win, thanks to Big Papi being a DH. I don't see this happening this season.

2. When was the last time a non-slugger won the award? The answer is 2001, Ichiro Suzuki. He lead the league in runs, hits, BA, sb's, but not in WS. WS doesn't give you the award automatically. Jeter doesn't lead in squat. Ohh, yeah, in RISP BA. But so did Mark Grace, Tony Gwynn, and other non-MVP candidates.

3. Let's take a look at the others:

-Vernon Wells. Solid season, only consistent player on a playoff bound team.
-Vladimir Guerrero. Mainstay of an overachieving Anaheim Angels team.
-David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. Candidates for every season. They'll always put up the numbers.
-Jim Thome. Same as the Ichiro factor. Helped his team get better. And believe me the Sox are getting better.
-Justin Morneau is putting insane numbers in the surge of the Twins. And Mauer is the best player in the league...can somebody look up his WS totals?

Those are my reasons, but let's look deep into it:

Derek Jeter was the best player in the league in the 1999 season. That was the only season that credited him better than Nomar and A-Rod. If he would've lost the MVP to Manny and his 165 RBI's i could understand. As a yankee hater, i gotta admit i'm not blind. He did put great numbers. But he lost, because it was a deep field. Same as this season.

Like my opinions? But you'll see at the end of the season, when the MVP winner will be...someone else than Jeter.

csh19792001

07-30-2006, 11:51 AM

Yankee Fan quoted me. I knew this was coming. BTW. Are you telling me that Jeter is the best deffensive shortstop in the league.

No, I'm saying he's probably the best shortstop in the league, not near the best defensive shortstop.

I'm also saying that Jeter does many little things the are lost to the statistics, but that those of us who see him every day are privy to. These things don't accrue in his statistical value, but they contribute to his teams winning more games in the long run. He's the consummate team player and captain.

csh19792001

07-30-2006, 11:53 AM

Like my opinions? But you'll see at the end of the season, when the MVP winner will be...someone else than Jeter.

Well, if he keeps playing like this (similar to what he did in 99'), it wouldn't be the first time the writers missed completely and screwed him out of an MVP.

plask_stirlac

07-30-2006, 12:53 PM

He is a candidate, which he usually isn't.

I can't say I'd take take him over Wells or Mauer this year as a Offense+/Defense+ player. Manny's going for 100 walks, 45 HR, and topping his 2003 OBP as well as his 2004 slugging.

But this is the MVP, not best player. Ortiz isn't even a cinch for best Boston hitter overall, but he's so crucial to their team. Thome's hitting like A-Rod 2003. Halladay could even be a long-shot for any first place votes, but I could see the Jays under .500 if he were replaced by Pineiro or some lesser pitcher. Doesn't that say MVP? Liriano has been the best start so far and away, and his relief appearances also helped stop some bleeding. Santana could look for tons of high finishes, maybe 1st in IP, Ks, K/BB, and WHIP and close in ERA, Ws.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-30-2006, 02:38 PM

stelly, if hoffman comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up 2 runs, he still gets a save

save % is worthless

You know as well as I that those types of saves are not common, Hoffman rarely gets those kind of saves.

My only thing is that if a player wears pinstripes all reasoning aside he is automatically considered better than if he didnt wear that same uniform.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-30-2006, 02:41 PM

I'm wondering if BigStelly happened to see the All-Star Game. Gee, I wonder whose BLSV in a 1-run game led to another closer's chance to save the game by the same amount?

Hopefully, postseason performance counts for something. Still, let's get this back to Jeter.

I think that he's the Yankee MVP, but with outstanding offensive candidates, and perhaps you'll have the ROY/AL Cy Young winner being the same candidate, the MVP could even be a pitcher this season. While I'm not particularly enthused that a pitcher (or a DH) get an MVP when there are other qualified candidates, I don't feel it's unfathomable that Liriano or Papelbon could be considered for AL MVP this season.

Has anyone ever won ROY, Cy Young and MVP in the same season?

Yes I watched the all star game and its a joke, quoting things that happened in the all star game is like quoting spring training.

An answer to your question no, there has yet to be a player who wins all three awards.

dl4060

07-30-2006, 02:50 PM

Before anybody jumps on Chris, yes, he knows Jeter didn't win the MVP in '99. But he was EASILY the best player in the AL, and deserved it that year.

I agree. Catchers generally don't get better down the stretch... especially young catchers that haven't really gotten used to the grind of a 162 game schedule behind the plate. It's absolutely bewildering to me that Jeter is appearing to get better as he transitions from early 30's to mid 30's... that's basically unprecedented for SS's.

He may have been the best player in the AL that year, but it is very debatable. He most certainly was not EASILY the best player that year. If he was at all, it was very close. He might be the MVP this year, but he is still the David Beckham of baseball: Excellent but overrated.

Redfoot

07-30-2006, 04:02 PM

3. Let's take a look at the others:

-Vernon Wells. Solid season, only consistent player on a playoff bound team.
-Vladimir Guerrero. Mainstay of an overachieving Anaheim Angels team.
-David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. Candidates for every season. They'll always put up the numbers.
-Jim Thome. Same as the Ichiro factor. Helped his team get better. And believe me the Sox are getting better.
-Justin Morneau is putting insane numbers in the surge of the Twins. And Mauer is the best player in the league...can somebody look up his WS totals?

There are many flaws within this so-called "reasoning". First off, you call the Blue Jays "playoff bound". If the season ended today they'd be packing up for the winter. They're not playoff bound. You could have said that Wells is undoubtedly the best player on that team, which he is, but instead chose to quip that he is the "only consistent player" on the Jays. Alex Rios, Reed Johnson, Troy Glaus, and a handful of others would take exception to such a statement. There are a lot of good hitters on Toronto who have been consistent all season.

Derek Jeter has a higher average than Vlad Guerrero this year - a difference of 40 points. His OBP advantage over Vlad is .428 to .357, which isn't even close. Jeter has scored more runs, picked up more hits, walked more, and stolen more bases, and holds an OPS advantage of .916 to .866. Furthermore, Guerrero is actually having the worst season of his career thus far. The Angels won the AL West in 2005. Here in 2006, they currently find themselves out of a playoff spot and in a dog fight with all three teams in their division. How are they overachieving?

You list Manny and Ortiz as MVP candidates. Both fearsome, phenomenal hitters. But unless you plan on handing out the award to co-MVPs, it means that one is better than the other, and essentially that one of the two is not even the most valuable player on his own team, let alone in the entire American League.

The Chicago White Sox are currently 62-41, a winning percentage of .592. Through 103 games in 2005, they were 68-35, a winning percentage of .660. This lends a hand in disputing your off-based claim that Thome has "helped his team get better".

These are all very good players you listed, who all belong in an MVP conversation to this point (except maybe Vlad), but your reasoning is very curious.

Mattingly

07-30-2006, 04:30 PM

Yes I watched the all star game and its a joke, quoting things that happened in the all star game is like quoting spring training.

An answer to your question no, there has yet to be a player who wins all three awards.
Well then, is the WS an exhibition game also? Tell me, who had 3 saves in the 1998 World Series where the Yanks played the Padres? :D

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1998_WS.shtml

Thanks for answering the question about the awards. :)

Brannu

07-30-2006, 04:59 PM

Furthermore, Guerrero is actually having the worst season of his career thus far. The Angels won the AL West in 2005. Here in 2006, they currently find themselves out of a playoff spot and in a dog fight with all three teams in their division. How are they overachieving?

The Chicago White Sox are currently 62-41, a winning percentage of .592. Through 103 games in 2005, they were 68-35, a winning percentage of .660. This lends a hand in disputing your off-based claim that Thome has "helped his team get better".

I suppose every player would love to be hitting .314 with 20 hr's and 78 rbi's through 101 games and be having their worst season thus far. :) I guess the key phrase there is "thus far."

If Chicago's pitching was anywhere close to as good as it was last year, they would have more than 70 wins right now. There's no way to deny what Thome has done for that offense. He's been a serious force in the middle of that lineup.

HOOTIE

07-30-2006, 05:15 PM

You know as well as I that those types of saves are not common, Hoffman rarely gets those kind of saves.

My only thing is that if a player wears pinstripes all reasoning aside he is automatically considered better than if he didnt wear that same uniform.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/library/columns/gs_060321.htm

Hoffman has 261 easy saves, the most ever. Saves and save % are poor stats.

yankillaz

07-30-2006, 07:26 PM

No, I'm saying he's probably the best shortstop in the league, not near the best defensive shortstop.

I'm also saying that Jeter does many little things the are lost to the statistics, but that those of us who see him every day are privy to. These things don't accrue in his statistical value, but they contribute to his teams winning more games in the long run. He's the consummate team player and captain.

Oh yeah, i forgot... the intangibles. In this i gotta agreed. He's the smartest player in the game. Lacks the talent, but is smart.

yankillaz

07-30-2006, 07:29 PM

Well, if he keeps playing like this (similar to what he did in 99'), it wouldn't be the first time the writers missed completely and screwed him out of an MVP.

But they will, because those are sportswriters. Jeter has been very valuable. I put the Guerrero thing because i view a late season surge that will carry them to the playoffs and Vlad is going to be an integral part (He already started today against Boston). Jeter has been the Most Valuable Player for any team in the American League, except possibly for Travis Hafner in the Indians, a player who will never win the award.

But they screwed him back then, and they'll do it again. But don't worry, he'll win his THIRD undeserving Gold Glove.:laugh

yankillaz

07-30-2006, 07:36 PM

There are many flaws within this so-called "reasoning". First off, you call the Blue Jays "playoff bound". If the season ended today they'd be packing up for the winter. They're not playoff bound. You could have said that Wells is undoubtedly the best player on that team, which he is, but instead chose to quip that he is the "only consistent player" on the Jays. Alex Rios, Reed Johnson, Troy Glaus, and a handful of others would take exception to such a statement. There are a lot of good hitters on Toronto who have been consistent all season.

Derek Jeter has a higher average than Vlad Guerrero this year - a difference of 40 points. His OBP advantage over Vlad is .428 to .357, which isn't even close. Jeter has scored more runs, picked up more hits, walked more, and stolen more bases, and holds an OPS advantage of .916 to .866. Furthermore, Guerrero is actually having the worst season of his career thus far. The Angels won the AL West in 2005. Here in 2006, they currently find themselves out of a playoff spot and in a dog fight with all three teams in their division. How are they overachieving?

You list Manny and Ortiz as MVP candidates. Both fearsome, phenomenal hitters. But unless you plan on handing out the award to co-MVPs, it means that one is better than the other, and essentially that one of the two is not even the most valuable player on his own team, let alone in the entire American League.

The Chicago White Sox are currently 62-41, a winning percentage of .592. Through 103 games in 2005, they were 68-35, a winning percentage of .660. This lends a hand in disputing your off-based claim that Thome has "helped his team get better".

These are all very good players you listed, who all belong in an MVP conversation to this point (except maybe Vlad), but your reasoning is very curious.

Ummm. Let's see.

Toronto has the best record in his Division playing against division rivals. Anything can happen, and the reason why the Jays are playing so well is due to Wells, Halladay and Ryan.

Vlad Guerrero is the best player in Anaheim, and i'm counting in a surge from this team. If this doesn't happens, Vlad is off the conversation. If it happens, it doesn't matter if Jeter beats him in every individual stat...Vlad gets the award.

Big Papi can benefit from the injustice that sportswriters made last season. And he will, that's why he's the frontrunner.

Thome is a longshot. But both Mauer and Morneau stack up with Jete's credentials.

plask_stirlac

07-30-2006, 08:42 PM

If an AL West player wins MVP, that would be awful.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-31-2006, 01:12 AM

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/library/columns/gs_060321.htm

Hoffman has 261 easy saves, the most ever. Saves and save % are poor stats.

How you came up with that number id like to know

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

07-31-2006, 01:13 AM

Well then, is the WS an exhibition game also? Tell me, who had 3 saves in the 1998 World Series where the Yanks played the Padres? :D

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1998_WS.shtml

Thanks for answering the question about the awards. :)

Rivera for some reason is a superior closer in the postseason that ill grant anyone, as far as during the season id never say such a thing.

trosmok

07-31-2006, 01:38 PM

Often the most valuable player on a team is the sole reason the team doesn't lose 100 or more games. Andre Dawson won the award for the last place Cubs back in '87, and sportswriters joked that without him the little bears might have finished the season in AAA. :lookitup
If any AL East shortstop is the most valuable,the '06 MVP may very well go to the Orioles SS, because without Tejada, Baltimore would be suffering an even more dismal season than they are enduring now. Looking at his offensive numbers in relation to Jeter's:

Tejada----------------------------Jeter

.330...........................BA................. ......354
.900...........................OPS................ .....916
19..............................HR................ ......7
77..............................RBI............... ......65
.379...........................OB%................ ....427
.521...........................SLG................ .....490

Very similar when you consider where in the lineup they hit, as well as who they have around them. Tejada has IMHO a wider, deeper range, stronger arm, better defensively all the way around, and has a tougher row to hoe being the leader of a sub .500 club.

Honus Wagner

08-07-2006, 07:18 AM

Sure he's a candidate, but Ortiz is the leader. Ortiz did hurt his chances with 2 horrible performances @ 1B--2 games, 2 errors leading to unearned runs and losses

Verlander and Liriano should be given consideration, however, pitchers only win MVP with extremely dominant years and neither will have enough wins to justify the award.

Imapotato

08-07-2006, 11:03 PM

Love the stats being put up by DH's, but when guys from key positions are putting up great stats as well, you have to give them the nod.

In my mind, it's either Jeter or Mauer, though I'm leaning more toward Mauer, especially if the Twins make the playoffs (which I don't see happening; I think either the Yanks or Red Sox will take the WC over the slipping White Sox and the too-hot-to-maintain Twins).

That;s the thing

Winning club has the chance for MVP

Travis Hafner, he will run away with the Hank Aaron and Silver Slugger Awards...or should

But if the Twins make the playoffs and Mauer hits near .400 yes

No other way Mauer can win it...and for all the hype surrounding Liriano (HE IS NOT THAT GOOD PEOPLE) the rest of the staff is doing HORRIBLE, something Mauer needs a bit of the blame for

So the Al is weak...no one on the Tigers aside from Carlos Guillen really has eye popping numbers

Why not Jeter????
2 COF down, a rookie and Terrance Long step in and you don't skip a beat?
Randy Johnson pitching his way into retirement, Aaron Small break down, Jaret Wright, Chacon, Pavano can't pitch anymore and you are still in 1st? WOW

Who knows, Hafner may get an Andre Dawson MVP

Now go look at the NL....so many MVP canidates it makes you head spin

As for all the Jeter haters....it comes from jealousy...yes they TRY and cover it up with a case of sabermetrics...but it is jealousy...he is handsome, dates beautiful women, makes alot of $$$ becauise women buy his jersey, not because he is Babe Ruth

I knew a guy that went onto a Jeter TIRADE, and wouldn't take any points I had to say in Jeter's favor...I wanted to know why such venom....his girlfriend came in heard us and said

"Wow, Jeter is sooo sexy" and she had the longful thought in her eye

Yep, understood why he hated Jeter so much...cause his face is replaced alot in some scenerios with Derek's...lmao

Basically its insecure, immature men who hate Jeter so much

If I was GM, he'd be one of the 1st guys I would pick

iPod

08-08-2006, 12:02 AM

No other way Mauer can win it...and for all the hype surrounding Liriano (HE IS NOT THAT GOOD PEOPLE) the rest of the staff is doing HORRIBLE, something Mauer needs a bit of the blame for

How do you mean? Do you mean he is pitching above his ability level right now and will regress back to the mean, or that he's not pitching that well right now, and that he's getting lucky (line drives being caught by good Twins field, etc)?

TonyK

08-08-2006, 12:23 AM

I think Jeter needs to win the batting championship to win the MVP. He does not lead in any major offensive category. But, any time a SS hits .350 and is a team leader he must be considered. Defensively, his range is weak and he is among a group of SS with almost the same number of errors. It will be interesting to see who in the AL has the best finish down the home stretch.

Imapotato

08-08-2006, 06:03 AM

How do you mean? Do you mean he is pitching above his ability level right now and will regress back to the mean, or that he's not pitching that well right now, and that he's getting lucky (line drives being caught by good Twins field, etc)?

The former, he is a good pitcher has a good plus change and Fastball

But there have been TONS of P's that have done what he has done, in the 1st half of their 1st season

I am saying don't expect 20 wins and a 2.20 ERA from Liriano next year...or even this second half if he doesn't adjust to the hitters

Mariano_Rivera

08-08-2006, 08:31 AM

`d say their are 4 position player candidates, Jeter, Ortiz, Thome and Maur. This should by know means be the end of the discussion but this is a good way to gauge how much value each player has in a a short amount of time. These are the candidates WARP 3 or Wins Above Replacement Player 3.

Mauer=9.8

Thome=7.5

Jeter=10.2

Ortiz=8.1

1st-Jeter

2nd-Mauer

3rd-Ortiz

4th-Thome

Just an interesting note I thought I`d mention

ZR56664

08-08-2006, 08:55 AM

If the yankees make the playoffs. If not i dont think he should because Derrek Lee got screwed last year because everyone was saying "Well, The Cubs didn't make the playoffs so that hurts his chances" I think thats stupid but if Dlee didnt win it neither should Jeter.

Ytown Tribe fan

08-08-2006, 09:24 AM

The thing is dislike about Ortiz is that he's not even the MVP of his own team. Manny is. But he'll probably win the MVP because voters feel bad that he didn't win it last year and because he has the tendency to get big hits late in close games.

Manny, you say? Manny has an OBP of .418 in close and late situations, compared to .380 for Ortiz. Yes, Ortiz has had better slugging in those situations. But that's only close and late. That's where a player's reputation rests, some times. That's why closers get a lot of press and startes and middle relievers sometimes don't.

But teams score runs in all the innings, don't they? How do Manny and Oartiz stack up for the whole game? Well, they have both created 91 runs, but Manny has done so in 32 fewer PAs; they are both batting .300 with RISP (Ortiz is at .304, Manny is at .298).

Manny has 22 Win Shares, which is tied with Jeter and Mauer for the AL lead. Ortiz and Hafner have 19, and non on defense of course.

Jeter is absolutely deserving of the AL MVP even if NY misses the playoffs. Mauer won't make it unless the Twins go 23-7 in September and make the Wild Card. But if the MVP comes from Boston, make it the right guy.

DoubleX

08-08-2006, 09:31 AM

Rivera for some reason is a superior closer in the postseason that ill grant anyone, as far as during the season id never say such a thing.

Let's see some regular season numbers...

ERA+
Rivera: 197
Hoffman: 146

That's an enormous gap!

ERA
Rivera: 2.33
Hoffman: 2.76

That's a pretty sizeable gap too, especially considering that Hoffman plays in the NL, and now in that very pitching friendly park there in SD, and Rivera typically pitches more innings (thus more opportunity for ERA to go up).

IP/162
Rivera: 82.0
Hoffman: 73.7

No. of 70+ IP Seasons
Rivera: 7 (Career high of 107.7)
Hoffman: 5 (Career high of 90.0)

This despite Hoffman having a two season lead on Rivera.

In regular season, it is not really that close. Hoffman is great, probable Hall of Famer, but Rivera is in a class by himself. Again, I want to stress the ERA and ERA+ differences (despite Hoffman having the aforementioned advantages). Rivera's ERA+ lead is just ridiculous.

Mariano_Rivera

08-08-2006, 10:29 AM

DoWnWiThTheSiCkNeSs

08-08-2006, 10:32 AM

i dont think jeter should be the MVP, i think either mauer, manny, or big papi before him

Blackout

08-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Let's see some regular season numbers...

ERA+
Rivera: 197
Hoffman: 146

That's an enormous gap!

ERA
Rivera: 2.33
Hoffman: 2.76

That's a pretty sizeable gap too, especially considering that Hoffman plays in the NL, and now in that very pitching friendly park there in SD, and Rivera typically pitches more innings (thus more opportunity for ERA to go up).

IP/162
Rivera: 82.0
Hoffman: 73.7

No. of 70+ IP Seasons
Rivera: 7 (Career high of 107.7)
Hoffman: 5 (Career high of 90.0)

This despite Hoffman having a two season lead on Rivera.

In regular season, it is not really that close. Hoffman is great, probable Hall of Famer, but Rivera is in a class by himself. Again, I want to stress the ERA and ERA+ differences (despite Hoffman having the aforementioned advantages). Rivera's ERA+ lead is just ridiculous.

Hoffman can't even close out an all-star game

and his one world series chance, he gets rocked

mtortolero

08-08-2006, 12:06 PM

mtortolero

08-08-2006, 12:26 PM

Redfoot

08-08-2006, 12:46 PM

Tejada does not look more efficient with runners on than Jeter, at least for me :

Tejada´s splts:
None on
219 AB 11 Hr 11 RBI .342 Avg .390 Obp .557 Slg
Runners on
236 AB 8 Hr 67 RBI .318 Avg .370 Obp .475 Slg

Jeter´s splits
None on
231 AB 6 Hr 6 RBI .338 Avg .398 Obp .485 Slg
Runners on
183 AB 3 Hr 62 RBI .361 Avg .452 Obp .497 Slg

Tejada also leads all of MLB in hitting into DPs (he's always near the top of the league in this category) while Jeter is not in the top 30. Jeter has created more runs despite Yankee Stadium ranking 24th in runs scored as far as park factors go while Camden Yards is ranked 12th. Arguing for Tejada over Jeter seems ludicrous to me.

SoxSon

08-08-2006, 01:48 PM

Jeter is absolutely deserving of the AL MVP even if NY misses the playoffs. But if the MVP comes from Boston, make it the right guy.

This is where you lost me. If the MVP is coming from Boston or NY, it needs to be from the team making it in, IMO.

Also, I'd venture a guess that even most Boston fans, right or wrong, would pick Ortiz over Manny. There are all kinds of ways to measure value in Most Valuable Player, and Ortiz brings a huge motivational value to the ballclub that Manny just doesn't.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

08-08-2006, 05:31 PM

Hoffman can't even close out an all-star game

and his one world series chance, he gets rocked

Regular season save percentage leader.... i rest my case that is THE JOB of the closer not to have a low era or era+(I know they are one in the same thing for the most part)

Basically the only things i hear for a case for Rivera being great are 3 things.... ERA+, postseason, and now the allstar game.... or he pitched more innings. Never he converted more on save oppurtunites somehow that stat has become completely obsolete, never Rivera strikes out more guys, never Rivera did all this with no help from his defense behind him playing for teams in the cellar for so many years.

No its ERA+ and postseason. Cuz thats all there is to a closer from what you guys say.

ElHalo

08-08-2006, 05:55 PM

Basically the only things i hear for a case for Rivera being great are 3 things.... ERA+, postseason, and now the allstar game.... or he pitched more innings. Never he converted more on save oppurtunites somehow that stat has become completely obsolete, never Rivera strikes out more guys, never Rivera did all this with no help from his defense behind him playing for teams in the cellar for so many years.

Yes, Save% is pretty obsolete. Think about it logically. A guy comes in to start the ninth with a three run lead, gives up two runs in the inning, and gets a save. Guy comes in with nobody out in the eighth with the bases loaded, gets a double play ball and a strike out, and he blows the save. Yes, the second guy pitched better. It's a pretty meaningless stat.

Blackout

08-08-2006, 06:40 PM

trevor hoffman didn't even average one inning per game last year

or the year before that

or in 2002

or in 2001

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

08-08-2006, 06:54 PM

Yes, Save% is pretty obsolete. Think about it logically. A guy comes in to start the ninth with a three run lead, gives up two runs in the inning, and gets a save. Guy comes in with nobody out in the eighth with the bases loaded, gets a double play ball and a strike out, and he blows the save. Yes, the second guy pitched better. It's a pretty meaningless stat.

ah yes this is the guy i was waiting for to come out and play so to speak.... ok lets play your logic game.... you use extremes fine.
A guy comes in with the bases loaded up by 1 and nobody out in the 9th, he then strikes out the side to prevent any runs from scoring. On the other hand a guy comes in with nobody out up by 2 in the ninth, walks two guys then gives up a homerun. Who pitched better, CLEARLY the first guy.

Look at the average save oppurtunity, most of the time its the team up by 1 or 2 runs to close out the game in the 9th not the off the wall situations you used. Though ive seen hoffman stop even the off the wall one very often when i was younger.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

08-08-2006, 06:55 PM

trevor hoffman didn't even average one inning per game last year

or the year before that

or in 2002

or in 2001

What on earth is your point.... that means NOTHING for a closer, they arent designed to lug loads of innings for the bulpen.

Blackout

08-08-2006, 06:56 PM

What on earth is your point.... that means NOTHING for a closer, they arent designed to lug loads of innings for the bulpen.

whens the last time he had a 2 inning save? let alone a 3 inning save

its easy to come in with a 3 run lead in a pitchers park and get a save

ElHalo

08-08-2006, 08:34 PM

ah yes this is the guy i was waiting for to come out and play so to speak.... ok lets play your logic game.... you use extremes fine.
A guy comes in with the bases loaded up by 1 and nobody out in the 9th, he then strikes out the side to prevent any runs from scoring. On the other hand a guy comes in with nobody out up by 2 in the ninth, walks two guys then gives up a homerun. Who pitched better, CLEARLY the first guy.

Look at the average save oppurtunity, most of the time its the team up by 1 or 2 runs to close out the game in the 9th not the off the wall situations you used. Though ive seen hoffman stop even the off the wall one very often when i was younger.

And if screwy things like that almost never happened, then maybe you'd have an argument. But they happen all the time. In the last four years (since the beginning of the 2003 season), Mo Rivera has blown 20 saves. In two of those (or 10%) he gave up NO runs, meaning that he let inherited runners score, but didn't allow any of his guys to score. To outline the situations:

On July 25, 2003, he came in to the game with two outs in the eighth inning and a runner on third, up by one. He allowed a single, then shut down the Red Sox for the rest of the game. Yanks won on a Derek Jeter sac fly in the ninth.

August 1, 2003, he came in with two outs in the eighth, runners on first and second. He induced a groundball to Alfonso Soriano, which Soriano promptly threw into the middle of nowhere. Oakland scored on the error, Rivera shut them down for the rest of his stint, and the A's ended up winning in extras after Rivera had been relieved.

On June 8 of this year, Hoffman blew a save on an unearned run (Greene bobbled what would have been the third out to end the game). Is that his fault? Stuff like that happens all the time. A significant proportion of blown saves come in games the closers pitched really well. It happens.

Honus Wagner Rules

08-08-2006, 11:55 PM

whens the last time he had a 2 inning save? let alone a 3 inning save

its easy to come in with a 3 run lead in a pitchers park and get a save
I believe last season or two season someone had a seven inning save. I can't remember who it was, though...

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

08-09-2006, 12:09 AM

And if screwy things like that almost never happened, then maybe you'd have an argument. But they happen all the time. In the last four years (since the beginning of the 2003 season), Mo Rivera has blown 20 saves. In two of those (or 10%) he gave up NO runs, meaning that he let inherited runners score, but didn't allow any of his guys to score. To outline the situations:

On July 25, 2003, he came in to the game with two outs in the eighth inning and a runner on third, up by one. He allowed a single, then shut down the Red Sox for the rest of the game. Yanks won on a Derek Jeter sac fly in the ninth.

August 1, 2003, he came in with two outs in the eighth, runners on first and second. He induced a groundball to Alfonso Soriano, which Soriano promptly threw into the middle of nowhere. Oakland scored on the error, Rivera shut them down for the rest of his stint, and the A's ended up winning in extras after Rivera had been relieved.

On June 8 of this year, Hoffman blew a save on an unearned run (Greene bobbled what would have been the third out to end the game). Is that his fault? Stuff like that happens all the time. A significant proportion of blown saves come in games the closers pitched really well. It happens.

OK 10% of the time Mo blew a save that wasnt his fault, there is still 90% of the time. That one time Hoffman blew the save this year, yes it was not his fault, but those even out after a while, and if they dont, the team with the worse defense(traditionally san diego) will allow more fluke blown saves.

BigStellyPADRES4LIFE

08-09-2006, 12:10 AM

whens the last time he had a 2 inning save? let alone a 3 inning save

its easy to come in with a 3 run lead in a pitchers park and get a save

Sorry he played most his career in a neutral park, not petco, and by the way right now petco has a higher power index than coors field!!!(or did a few weeks ago im not sure if that's still the case)

trosmok

08-09-2006, 07:09 AM

Tejada does not look more efficient with runners on than Jeter, at least for me :

Tejada´s splts:
None on
219 AB 11 Hr 11 RBI .342 Avg .390 Obp .557 Slg
Runners on
236 AB 8 Hr 67 RBI .318 Avg .370 Obp .475 Slg

Jeter´s splits
None on
231 AB 6 Hr 6 RBI .338 Avg .398 Obp .485 Slg
Runners on
183 AB 3 Hr 62 RBI .361 Avg .452 Obp .497 Slg

But MVP is not decided by value with runners on. Great analysis, mtortolero, nonetheless. Just imagine if Jeter was batting fifth in the lineup, and Tejada was the Orioles' lead-off man, or better still if they switched teams. Who would be the more valuable player in that scenario? Sure it is a lot of speculation, but the MVP has consistently been a popularity contest; statistical superiority seldom wins out unless it is a Dawson, Walker, Thomas or Jr. type of season for an also-ran team.

trosmok

08-09-2006, 09:17 AM

........Winning club has the chance for MVP

So the Al is weak...no one on the Tigers aside from Carlos Guillen really has eye popping numbers........

Interesting take on the whole anti-Jeter sentiment, and very good point made in asking "Why not?"

Started me thinking about the Tigers catcher, Ivan Rodriguez. Why not I-Rod for MVP? He is easily in the top five defensively, has consistently hit .300 or better this season, calls a great game for all his pitchers including the bullpen guys he barely knows, and is the anchor that knows how to deal with success on the young and hungry Detroit team. The Tigers have the best record in MLB, more wins already than all of last year, and with Mags, Guillen, et.al., smothering the challengers in the AL Central, he must be given some consideration as most valuable, in my book.

Captain Cold Nose

08-09-2006, 09:48 AM

Sorry he played most his career in a neutral park, not petco, and by the way right now petco has a higher power index than coors field!!!(or did a few weeks ago im not sure if that's still the case)
While I can appreciate standing up for your guy, and the Hoffman-Rivera discussion is an interesting one, it has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. Please start a new thread as opposed to hijacking an ongoing one.

ElHalo

08-09-2006, 11:26 AM

I believe last season or two season someone had a seven inning save. I can't remember who it was, though...

Jake Westbrook.

Imapotato

08-09-2006, 02:50 PM

Interesting take on the whole anti-Jeter sentiment, and very good point made in asking "Why not?"

Started me thinking about the Tigers catcher, Ivan Rodriguez. Why not I-Rod for MVP? He is easily in the top five defensively, has consistently hit .300 or better this season, calls a great game for all his pitchers including the bullpen guys he barely knows, and is the anchor that knows how to deal with success on the young and hungry Detroit team. The Tigers have the best record in MLB, more wins already than all of last year, and with Mags, Guillen, et.al., smothering the challengers in the AL Central, he must be given some consideration as most valuable, in my book.

That's who I thought of as well...but I think Rodriguez is highly overrated, he can hardly speak English...so I highly doubt he does alot with the P's like Verlander, Rogers, Miner, Bonderman. He has a strong accurate arm...and that is about it

The Tigers are running on pitching and timely hits it seems

The AL Cy Young is coming out of Detroit, but MVP...I don't know

I also take Most Valuable Player seriously...it is more then Stats

if you want a guy like Travis Hafner...that is called the Hank Aaron Award, which I think should get more press as well

DoubleX

08-09-2006, 06:22 PM

Sorry he played most his career in a neutral park, not petco, and by the way right now petco has a higher power index than coors field!!!(or did a few weeks ago im not sure if that's still the case)

BigStelly,

I really don't see how you can deny these three things:

1) Rivera has a better raw ERA, by almost half a run and despite playing the AL.

2) Rivera's has an enormous advantage in ERA+. The gap is ridiculous.

3) Rivera averages more innings per 162 - meaning he's out there more often than Hoffman and getting more saves of more than an inning, meaning he has more chance to tire and for his ERA to go up (yet it's still noticeably lower than Hoffman's).

Hoffman is great, don't get me wrong, but right now it seems that you're grasping at straws.

EvanAparra

08-09-2006, 06:50 PM

Right now i would think there are only 4 valid candidates for MVP...

David Ortiz
Derek Jeter
Albert Pujols
Lance Berkman

538280

08-09-2006, 08:14 PM

Wow! I can't believe I'm going to, for the 2nd time this week, argue for Derek Jeter! Either him or Mauer, but I think Chris was right earlier when he said Mauer probably isn't likely to keep it up. I also argued on the other thread how Jeter deserved the '99 MVP.

My new system was also pretty impressed with him, perhaps I'm becoming sort of a Derek Jeter fan. :D

W_Marone

08-10-2006, 08:16 PM

When it comes to MVP Jeter is a canidate, but lets not forget that young first baseman in Minnisota, Mr. Morneau.

W_Marone

08-10-2006, 08:19 PM

Right now i would think there are only 4 valid candidates for MVP...

David Ortiz
Derek Jeter
Albert Pujols
Lance Berkman

Are you serious? What do you consider for a valid canidate? Carlos Beltran isnt a qualified canidate, or Ryan Howard, or Chase Utley, or David Wright, or Justin Morneau? Get out of here, what season are you watching? Certainly not this one.

Honus Wagner

08-10-2006, 09:06 PM

i admit i was wrong...ortiz will not win the MVP award

ESPNFan

08-10-2006, 09:44 PM

I cant understand the logic behind an MVP coming from a psudo all-star team where any player is only a multi-million salary dump and a few mid-level prospects from being replaced.

W_Marone

08-11-2006, 12:55 PM

Ortiz is AL MVP right now, really no doubt about it...leads the majors in Homeruns and is up there with RBI, not sure his rank in that, and he is the most clutch hitter in the game today.

TheKingofKings

08-11-2006, 01:18 PM

Ortiz is AL MVP right now, really no doubt about it...leads the majors in Homeruns and is up there with RBI, not sure his rank in that, and he is the most clutch hitter in the game today.

You know , i'm sick of people who think that HRs and RBIs are everything in baseball . Jeter is a much better player all around than Ortiz who is overrated due to his ability to hit HRs and drive in meaningless runs , Jeter can actually field (is a 2-time Gold Glover and reigning champ) , hit for Power , Contact and in Clutch situations and is a valuable captain and presence in the Clubhouse . Jeter is much more than a Power Hitter in a Crazy and Lucky team , he is a leader , a champion and an all-around player that nobody can stand up to .

Edgartohof

08-11-2006, 01:23 PM

[Ortiz] leads the majors in Homeruns and is up there with RBI, not sure his rank in that

Ortiz is leading in RBI as well (110).

In fact, he is on pace for 59 HR, and 158 RBI - not a bad season at all.

W_Marone

08-11-2006, 05:31 PM

Ortiz is leading in RBI as well (110).

In fact, he is on pace for 59 HR, and 158 RBI - not a bad season at all.

Hard to ignore those numbers and sorry to say, people who vote for MVP look at homeruns and RBI's more than fielding, thats what gold gloves are for, and to say that Ortiz hit meaningless runs is a joke, he's hit numerous game winning walkoff homeruns/hits, and plenty of other hr and rbi that lead the Red Sox to victory. When a guy has a season like the one he's having he will most surely win the AL MVP. By the way, Ortiz is one of the leaders of the Red Sox, is he the Captain? No, but, he is a leader of the BoSox. You want to talk about clutch? You cant talk about clutch without mentioning the name David Ortiz.

DoubleX

08-11-2006, 05:44 PM

Ortiz is AL MVP right now, really no doubt about it...leads the majors in Homeruns and is up there with RBI, not sure his rank in that, and he is the most clutch hitter in the game today.

Normally I'd agree with you, but the Yanks were pretty ravaged with injuries this year with and things looked pretty grim a few weeks ago with most so called "experts" predicting that the Yankees would be left out of the party. Here's a quick list of the things to hit the Yankees this year:

- Matsui out since May
- Sheffield pretty much out since May (he came back briefly)
- Cano out for six weeks
- Carl Pavano out since last year (I really rue that signing)
- Randy Johnson showing his age
- A-Rod under-performing and next to Barry Bonds, being the biggest distraction in the game this year
- Johnny Damon has been battling injuries for much of the year
- Jaret Wright and pick-a-player as the 4 and 5 starters
- Corner outfield, which are typically run-production position, for most the season being a platoon of Bernie Williams/Melky Cabrera/Bubba Crosby/Aaron Guiel/Terrence Long/Kevin Thompson

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not usually one to cry "woe is me," because I realize the good fortune I have in being a Yankees fan, but Jeter has pretty muh carried this team this year. I don't know if that necessarily makes him the league's MVP, but he is certainly the Yanks' MVP (and right now I think I'm leaning towards giving him the award - no slight to David Ortiz, Travis Hafner, and Jim Thome, who are all phenomenal hitters, but I have a strong bias against DHs when it comes to the MVP; for a DH to win the MVP, IMO, he better be having a season at the plate on the scale of something like the peak years Ruth/Williams/Cobb/Bonds/Gehrig/Foxx/Hornsby/Mantle/Thomas/Pujols, etc..).

Honus Wagner

08-11-2006, 07:36 PM

You know , i'm sick of people who think that HRs and RBIs are everything in baseball . Jeter is a much better player all around than Ortiz who is overrated due to his ability to hit HRs and drive in meaningless runs , Jeter can actually field (is a 2-time Gold Glover and reigning champ) , hit for Power , Contact and in Clutch situations and is a valuable captain and presence in the Clubhouse . Jeter is much more than a Power Hitter in a Crazy and Lucky team , he is a leader , a champion and an all-around player that nobody can stand up to .

How do you know that Jeter is a valuable presence in the clubhouse? Wasn't Jeter notorious for late night partying?

Imapotato

08-12-2006, 02:55 PM

Hard to ignore those numbers and sorry to say, people who vote for MVP look at homeruns and RBI's more than fielding, thats what gold gloves are for, and to say that Ortiz hit meaningless runs is a joke, he's hit numerous game winning walkoff homeruns/hits, and plenty of other hr and rbi that lead the Red Sox to victory. When a guy has a season like the one he's having he will most surely win the AL MVP. By the way, Ortiz is one of the leaders of the Red Sox, is he the Captain? No, but, he is a leader of the BoSox. You want to talk about clutch? You cant talk about clutch without mentioning the name David Ortiz.

EDIT----DOUBLE X beat me to it...lol

yes very true and if the Yankees were healthy all year, I would say Ortiz

But the Yanks had Long, Kevin Thompson, Mely Cabrera, Bubba Crosby in the OF and then Miguel Cairo getting alot of time at 2b

All that and Jeter's stats make him MVP

Of course Giambi and his new undetectable 'juice' gets a slight mention