Time for New Management?

[hubkittel]

i'm just curious about what everyone thinks about the cardinals current management team of lamping/jockety/larussa. they've been together and in charge of things for eleven years now and, while they've certainly had some success, they've failed to win the big prize. these are the st. louis cardinals and anything less than a world series championship is a failure. so should we say that this management team has failed? if so, should they be removed and replaced? eleven years is a long time.

i'm certainly not blind to the success that they (and we) have enjoyed:
1. they've created a consistant contender. six division titles (about to be seven) and one league pennant. most teams would kill for that kind of success.
2. they've kept the franchise healthy. great attendence, new ballpark, nice revenue stream, a payroll that's reasonable (for this day and age). you have to assume the bottem line is pretty good.
3. no real scandles or embarassments that would harm the image of the franchise.
4. jockety has done a great job creating a core of a team that should continue to contend. his record on trades/free agent signings is pretty good.
5. larussa is an outstanding field manager who consistantly puts his players in positions where they can be successful.

but i have a lot of issues with these guys as well:
1. the division title thing is not that impressive when you consider that there are three divisions now. how many times have the cardinals gone into post season and been the favorites? how many times have they been the best nl team in the post season? this "success", which is really the reason these guys are still on the job, is a creation of playoff inflation. i don't have the numbers at hand but if they hadn't have expanded the playoffs, we certainly wouldn't have those 6/7 division titles.
2. even with the expanded playoffs, there has been little playoff success. just one pennant in eleven years and no world series titles. four nlcs loses-one when they were up 3 games to one to the atl braves in 96, one to the wild card mets, one to the wild card astros. i understand you can't win every year but they haven't won at all.
3. their record in drafting and developing young talent is poor. pujols is a fluke/miracle that fell into their lap. molina and reyes look like good young players. did i miss anybody? our minor league system is filled with 4A guys and nonprospects like john gall (good luck overseas), skip schumacker, jrod, and chris duncan. baseball america consistantly ranks the cardinal minor league system near the bottem of their orginazational lists. this management team has failed in their responsibility to develop young players. for every reyes, i give you an ankiel.
4. larussa isn't a st. louis guy, doesn't play a stl style of baseball, and has never really been comfortable with the city/fans. talk to ron gant, brian jordan, ray lankford, and ozzie smith if you want an interesting opinion about the future HoF manager.
5. jockety's reputation really rests on the edmonds trade and isn't all that impressive elsewhere. his free agent signings haven't been all that great. for every carpenter and eckstein, there's an encarnacion and a danny jackson. if you think about it, carpenter, rolen and pujols all fell into his lap. without those moves, how successful would you say jockety really is?
6. i understand that cardinal ownership is in this to make money and the new stadium is great but, my god, we have the third highest avg ticket prices in the league. st. louis is not ny or boston or philly or la. the ownership and lamping are taking advantage of the best fans in baseball.

the window of opportunity is closing fast for this team. edmonds is showing age and his option might not be picked up for next year. carpenter and reyes are the only two starters under contract for next year. we have more holes then ever and could use upgrades at OF, 2B, SP, and the bullpen. is this really the management team we want in place to rebuild this team and take us into the future?

i know that tlr is in no danger of being fired. jockety's job is secure as well. and you have to think that ownership loves lamping. so the question is really about what do we as fans think about these guys and do we think it might be time for a change?

my opinion, for what it's worth, it that it is probably time for jockety and larussa to go. eleven years, no world series title is the bottom line for me. also, we have to get somebody in here who can recognize and develop young talent. if ownership is not going to put more money into the payroll then player development becomes more important then ever. i respect both jockety and larussa and salute them for the fine job that they've done but i think it's time for them to go.

[Senior skittles]

You have some good points....and some not so good points here..........LArussa is a VERY GOOD MANAGER and I dont beleive that him and his resoucefullness is our reason for lack of success in the playoffs. I think that our reason of failure in the playoffs is our team. But now after 2 consecutive titles...our third stint in the playoffs may yield better results. Larussa probally wont manage past this year so we will need a new manager. jose oquendo has exprresed intrest so i say give him a shot. I think edmonds will be picked up for next year for the reason that they want to give colby rasmus time to develop into the star he will be. I also dont believe in getting rid of walt after all hes done for this fracnchise. Too many good deals to git rid of him. I dont believe our window of oppurtunity can ever close so long as we have rolen, pujols, and carpenter on the same team. So give it a year or two before we think of the managment as our problem. here are a couple reasons why we can expect a brave like dynasty from this club.

1.Albert pujols, scott rolen, chris carpenter
2. upcoming stars such as wainwright, reyes, molina(hopefully!!!), and duncan(maybe the next larry walker??)
3.prospects such as colby rasmus, jamie garcia, randy roth,mark worell. tyler green, jon jay, adam occtavio, travas hanson, and some others.
4. Our management will keep a good team together till those guys are ready.
5. Those mediocre prospect may turn out to be big time players,
6. Our managment will stock up on young talent in the upcoming draft.

No need to worry fellow cardinal fans!!

[StanTheMan]

The current drought of 23 years without a World Series is the longest in the history of the franchise... even longer than 1903 (the first WS) to the first WS win for the Cards in 1924. Since 1924... we have never gone this long without winning a WS. For crying out loud, even the Marlins and Diamondbacks have won recently.

:mad:

That said, I don't think that we should break up the trio mentioned. Although the big prize has been elusive, I believe that a significant portion of the teams' success is directly related to these guys, rather than success achieved despite their decisions.

For every acquizition along the lines of Rolen, or Drafting a Pujols, there is also a Tino Martinez, but overall, they each do a good job. They make good decisions and improve the team. I say keep them all.

But, should we extend our World Series Drought another 76 years to match the current 99 consecutive years of futility being enjoyed by the Cubs, I would hope that my Great-Great Grandson has enough sense to start a thread calling for everyone to be fired. :laugh

[BaylorDan]

We are fortunate to have this management team and I hope we do for a long time.

[KCGHOST]

Fire Jocketty and LaRussa, huh?? Might I ask who you have in mind to replace them??

[hubkittel]

You have some good points....and some not so good points here..........LArussa is a VERY GOOD MANAGER... So give it a year or two before we think of the managment as our problem. here are a couple reasons why we can expect a brave like dynasty from this club.

1.Albert pujols, scott rolen, chris carpenter
2. upcoming stars such as wainwright, reyes, molina(hopefully!!!), and duncan(maybe the next larry walker??)
3.prospects such as colby rasmus, jamie garcia, randy roth,mark worell. tyler green, jon jay, adam occtavio, travas hanson, and some others.
4. Our management will keep a good team together till those guys are ready.
5. Those mediocre prospect may turn out to be big time players,
6. Our managment will stock up on young talent in the upcoming draft.

No need to worry fellow cardinal fans!!

i'm not sold on the brave like dynasty (we may never see something like that ever again-especially if the sox take down the yanks this year) but larussa is a very good manager (although he has some tendencies that drive me insane and cause me to periodicly curse his name), i'm not arguing that he isn't. i just think that with the amount of money we have tied up in our core players, with the number of contracts up at the end of the year on the rest of the team, with ownership seamingly unwilling to spend their new ballpark windfall, with the state of our minor league system (and i think you overestimate the quality of our prospects-check out what baseball america (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26660.html)thinks; somebody also just posted something from scouts, inc (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47670)that ranked the top prospects in the minors and not a cardinal in sight), with all of these things i don't see how this management team is going to be able to put a championship team on the field anytime soon.

the outfield has to be rebuilt. edmonds is on the downside of his career. encarnacion was a desperation move. and we don't have a LF (i think guys like duncan are a dime a dozen and when you see him over 600 AB his flaws will be exposed; right now, he's on the kind of tear that jrod/johnny load-remember him-was on last year; it will pass).

the starting rotation has to be rebuilt. we have carp (thank god), reyes, and probably wainwright for next year. mulder, suppan, marquis, and weaver are FA at the end of the year. so we have to find two (really three) more starters. and as for help from the minors, i just mentioned our two best pitching prospects.

the bullpen has to be rebuilt. really, in this day and age, a bullpen has to be rebuilt every year but this bullpen especially. izzy's best days may be behind him (and if we lose him to injury or age/ineffectiveness, turn out the lights, it's over) and we need upgrades at both setup spots.

if you want a good evaluation of our 2B/C situation, head over to the hardball times (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/contending-holes-national-league/).

i love the cardinals. a born and raised cardinal fan, i live about seven miles from the ballpark and baseball is our life here. it's what we do, it's what we are. i'm not one of those screaming east coast baseball fans (i'm not naming names but they should really stop booing the reigning AL MVP) who freaks out during a two game losing streak. but i'm trying to be as realistic as possible here.

any team that starts out with pujuls, rolen, and carpenter is in decent shape-no doubt about that. i just think it's getting encreasingly harder to but a team around that nucleus (with the number of holes and the money constraints). and i'm at the point where i question whether currant management can get it done. i'm not saying fire everybody today but we may be reaching the point where fresh blood/new ideas may be a good thing.

[hubkittel]

Fire Jocketty and LaRussa, huh?? Might I ask who you have in mind to replace them??

i'm not absolutely positive but there may be two people somewhere in the country who are qualified to run a major league baseball team. i know you guys in KC have had problems finding those two people but i think, if push came to shove, the cardinals could scrape somebody up. :) in all seriousness, The Secret Weapon is generally believed to be cardinal manager-in-waiting. and as to GM, we'll find some 20 year old kid with a laptop and a copy of moneyball. :laugh

[Senior skittles]

i'm not sold on the brave like dynasty (we may never see something like that ever again-especially if the sox take down the yanks this year) but larussa is a very good manager (although he has some tendencies that drive me insane and cause me to periodicly curse his name), i'm not arguing that he isn't. i just think that with the amount of money we have tied up in our core players, with the number of contracts up at the end of the year on the rest of the team, with ownership seamingly unwilling to spend their new ballpark windfall, with the state of our minor league system (and i think you overestimate the quality of our prospects-check out what baseball america (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26660.html)thinks; somebody also just posted something from scouts, inc (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47670)that ranked the top prospects in the minors and not a cardinal in sight), with all of these things i don't see how this management team is going to be able to put a championship team on the field anytime soon.

the outfield has to be rebuilt. edmonds is on the downside of his career. encarnacion was a desperation move. and we don't have a LF (i think guys like duncan are a dime a dozen and when you see him over 600 AB his flaws will be exposed; right now, he's on the kind of tear that jrod/johnny load-remember him-was on last year; it will pass).

the starting rotation has to be rebuilt. we have carp (thank god), reyes, and probably wainwright for next year. mulder, suppan, marquis, and weaver are FA at the end of the year. so we have to find two (really three) more starters. and as for help from the minors, i just mentioned our two best pitching prospects.

the bullpen has to be rebuilt. really, in this day and age, a bullpen has to be rebuilt every year but this bullpen especially. izzy's best days may be behind him (and if we lose him to injury or age/ineffectiveness, turn out the lights, it's over) and we need upgrades at both setup spots.

if you want a good evaluation of our 2B/C situation, head over to the hardball times (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/contending-holes-national-league/).

i love the cardinals. a born and raised cardinal fan, i live about seven miles from the ballpark and baseball is our life here. it's what we do, it's what we are. i'm not one of those screaming east coast baseball fans (i'm not naming names but they should really stop booing the reigning AL MVP) who freaks out during a two game losing streak. but i'm trying to be as realistic as possible here.

any team that starts out with pujuls, rolen, and carpenter is in decent shape-no doubt about that. i just think it's getting encreasingly harder to but a team around that nucleus (with the number of holes and the money constraints). and i'm at the point where i question whether currant management can get it done. i'm not saying fire everybody today but we may be reaching the point where fresh blood/new ideas may be a good thing.

I was very dissapointed in our prospects rankings because after seeining all of them play.....I thought they deserved to be a little bit higher but I understand what your saying our trashy minor legue system.

next year

SP
carp
mulder
(marquis suppan or weaver)
reyes
wainwright
(hancock???)

I would not consider that rebuilding

RP
Izzy
loooper
thompson
kinney
flores
johnson
hancock

again not really rebulding (rincon)??

1b pujols
2b ???????
3b rolen
ss eckstein
rf encarnacion sadly ( 3 year contract??????)
cf Edmonds
lf ?????????
C moilina

we do have some holes but look for molina to improve so i do not consider C a hole. I believe luna may become a starter but dont count on it.......they need to sighn a FA. LF could also be filled from within but personally I thin we need another FA here.

so going into next year....heres our needs

1. A Good, permanent, everyday LF, (lee, soriano, others???)
2. 1 good late game rieliver
3. a number 2 or 3 starter

My point of all this is.......A couple good sighnings could make us a VERY good team next year.....

PS I really believe this team can go all the way this year!!!!!

[Senior skittles]

I hope none of the cardinals read that hardball times article that you presented!!!!!!!!!:waving :eek: :laugh

[hubkittel]

I hope none of the cardinals read that hardball times article that you presented!!!!!!!!!:waving :eek: :laugh
yeah, that wouldn't be too healthy for the old ego.:laugh and really skittles, i agree that this team has the potential to go far in the playoffs. i expect to see them in the nlcs against the mets-and we'll take our chances from there. and as to next year, i think your analysis is fair. the key will be mulder-if we can get him cheap (so to speak) then we can go out and get a carlos lee. (and freakin' todd walker just went deep against us-no wait, back to back jacks, nice work by weaver-i hate the cubs) i think, as far as management is concerned, tlr is here as long as he wants to be-baring a complete collapse, jockety would never fire the guy. and i think the same goes for jockety. they've earned it and i do like the stability in the orginization. all i really want is another world series title (or four) and a farm system that annually churns out studs. where's branch rickey when you need him.

[Senior skittles]

yeah, that wouldn't be too healthy for the old ego.:laugh and really skittles, i agree that this team has the potential to go far in the playoffs. i expect to see them in the nlcs against the mets-and we'll take our chances from there. and as to next year, i think your analysis is fair. the key will be mulder-if we can get him cheap (so to speak) then we can go out and get a carlos lee. (and freakin' todd walker just went deep against us-no wait, back to back jacks, nice work by weaver-i hate the cubs) i think, as far as management is concerned, tlr is here as long as he wants to be-baring a complete collapse, jockety would never fire the guy. and i think the same goes for jockety. they've earned it and i do like the stability in the orginization. all i really want is another world series title (or four) and a farm system that annually churns out studs. where's branch rickey when you need him.

Ya im waching the game right now( SCOTT ROLEN JUST BOBBLED THE INNING ENDING GROUND BALL!!!!) What do you think about todd walker being our second basemen???

[hubkittel]

"What do you think about todd walker being our second basemen???"

oh my god, please no!:eek: i have this very strong anti-todd walker bias. a below average defensive 2B (and i'm being kind) and i think his offensive numbers are a product of having played in col, bos, and chi. i don't really have a problem with the miles/luna platoon at 2B-as long as we get decent defense from the position. the problem comes when we get no production from 2B and C and LF-it's just too much to overcome. and here comes a cardinal rally in the eighth-can we please beat the cubs just once this year.

[skeletor]

Fire Jocketty and LaRussa, huh?? Might I ask who you have in mind to replace them??

nope, won't happen..unless there's a total meltdown..and the attendance
drops...

Tony might retire..but as far as being fired...remote....

I think the problem is the lack of pitching depth..and the farm system
being sorta bare.....heck, the cupboard ain't exactly teeming with blue
chippers at Memphis...mostly career minor leaguers, aging vets, etc...
Look at Braves farm system...look at Cards....Look at Detroit's,

I think eventually, St.Louis needs to invest and grow the farm...quit
going for the quick fix..in trades, and FA's....short term VS long....

Other than that, what a great baseball town...and a rich history...

and good fans...no wonder attendance is always great !

[tonjes]

am i right in assuming that some of you are uneasy because of the struggles we've had this season?

a lot of people don't realize this, but we're in the middle of rebuilding the franchise. jocketty wasn't born yesterday. he knows edmonds has seen better days. he knows rolen only has a few more high caliber production seasons left. in the past, jocketty's strategy has been to go out and trade youth for star players. we had a lot of success with this because we could afford to do this. i don't think we can anymore. payrolls are continuing to increase, with the "rich" franchises spending over $100M a year on their players.

...so what do we do? we have to adjust to the market. focus on youth, invest our resources in the draft and farm system, and build from within. while we don't have any can't miss prospects, we're slowly putting together a very respectable core of players. if you don't agree, read this article about the quad cities team from today's post-dispatch.

recent cards draft picks are producing for quad cities team
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/5A241EFC518CAC4A8625719B001EB504?OpenDocument

also, as skittles mentioned, we do have a lot of rising stars that have already made it to the show. reyes and wainwright are going to be very solid starters (perhaps occasional all-stars) for the next decade. molina has potential to be a star. he's already one of the best defensive catchers in the league, and as soon as he develops more as a hitter he's going to be an extremely valuable player for the team. duncan is an intriguing wild card. while i wouldn't call him the next larry walker, i do see him as an everyday player someday.

i guess to sum all this up, i just want to say that we cardinal fans are the luckiest fans in baseball. most franchises wait too long before realizing it's time to rebuild. what's worse, some never realize it's time to rebuild, ie the new york yankees, and annually waste money on high priced veterans that don't have a lot of chemistry. the fact that we're able to win a division while rebuilding is definitely a reason to believe the future is going to continue to be very bright.

[hubkittel]

am i right in assuming that some of you are uneasy because of the struggles we've had this season?

a lot of people don't realize this, but we're in the middle of rebuilding the franchise.

i guess to sum all this up, i just want to say that we cardinal fans are the luckiest fans in baseball. most franchises wait too long before realizing it's time to rebuild. what's worse, some never realize it's time to rebuild, ie the new york yankees, and annually waste money on high priced veterans that don't have a lot of chemistry. the fact that we're able to win a division while rebuilding is definitely a reason to believe the future is going to continue to be very bright.

i guess, to set the record straight, i'm not unhappy with cardinal management and i'm not really calling for heads to roll. i started this thread just to take the pulse of the cardinal fans here on the forum and get a little something going here in the cardinal section.

that said, i am concerned about the general direction of the franchise. i'm obviously not as high on our minor league talent as some of you are and that (along with the lack of a world series title) is my major beef with the currant management. with their inability to develop a strong minor league development system and ownership's unwillingness to increase the major league payroll beyond 90 mil, how do we plug the holes we have now and the ones that will develop in the future? it's going to have to be done through player development and management's track record over the last eleven years has shown that to be the weakest part of their resume.

now they have made some changes over the last year or so as far as drafting/player development is concerned. they've brought in some new people and are using some of the new methodology that smaller market teams have been successful with. we'll see in a few years if that helps.

my greatest fear is that we find ourselves on a treadmill over the next two or three years-85 to 92 wins, contending in or winning a weak division, never winning a world series title, and wasting the career of the great pujuls. we win enough so everybody keeps their jobs, the core of the team gets older and older, and the minor league system continues to produce little more than chris duncan types (don't believe the hype-one decent month does not a career make). at some point that kind of thing will collapse on itself in a very ugly way.

but i know how lucky and spoiled we are. things could be a lot worse. we could be cub fans. :laugh

[Designated Fielder]

It seems that in '06 that the Cardinals have come back to the pack. I think that we will win the division in '06, and we have the experience over the Mets in the playoffs. I don't think the Mets pitching is that much better than the Cardinals. I'd take Carpenter over Pedro. I do think that we should have won it on '04 because based on how we did against the American League this year, we may have trouble in the World Series.

Now, in '07, we may have some difficulties, and may be looking up at the brewers, Astros, or Reds. Will there be alot of needs? Yes. I like Jocketty as a General Manager. Tony LaRussa still seems to out of place in St. Louis. I think that we judge that LaRussa is not Whitey or Red. LaRussa is a good in-season manager, but not post-season.

We should be developing our farm system now.