Front foot hitting [Archive]

WonderMonkey

07-17-2006, 01:55 PM

I don't think that will be much of a problem going forward. . .

CONTENT might be a problem.

Best wishes,

Scott

heh, not that. Not my mistake thread. I'm more talking about individuals that seem to act like this is their personal forum.

I'm far too stoopid to actually post useful content, but I try. And the more I try the more I'll learn.

hellborn

07-17-2006, 01:56 PM

Yeah, most likely.

Clips of Sheffield or Thomas anyone?

Or maybe Hank Aaron.

Going back in history, I would call Foxx and Gehrig both front foot hitters. Hornsby appears to have been, but photos of him actually swinging are rare.
I've seen a few shots of Honus Wagner that showed him wayyyy off on his front foot.
You really think of Sheffield as being a front foot hitter? He seems highly variable to me. In my experience of watching him, and I do love to watch him hit, his rip at a good fastball does not look very "front footy", but he seems to shift to the front foot emphasis to buy a little time when he's fooled somewhat by an offspeed pitch. Maybe ties into the "breakdown of mechanics" that some guys here talk about when the batter is fooled, but Sheffield looks to me like he knows exactly what he's doing.

ssarge

07-17-2006, 02:52 PM

post useful content, but I try. And the more I try the more I'll learn.
Well, that IS the right approach.

Best wishes to you,

Scott

Sultan_1895-1948

07-17-2006, 03:30 PM

Going back in history, I would call Foxx and Gehrig both front foot hitters. Hornsby appears to have been, but photos of him actually swinging are rare.
I've seen a few shots of Honus Wagner that showed him wayyyy off on his front foot.
You really think of Sheffield as being a front foot hitter? He seems highly varible to me. In my experience of watching him, and I do love to watch him hit, his rip at a good fastball does not look very "front footy", but he seems to shift to the front foot emphasis to buy a little time when he's fooled somewhat by an offspeed pitch. Maybe ties into the "breakdown of mechanics" that some guys here talk about when the batter is fooled, but Sheffield looks to me like he knows exactly what he's doing.

That's pretty good analysis of Sheff's swing. It does seem more exaggerated when he's out front.

Here's Hornsby and Sheff both out on their front foot. Couldn't you say that being out on your front foot is like a "controlled hip slide," (the front leg remaining firm being the conroller) and as long as the hands are kept back when fooled you're alright. Another thing, is that hitters who tend to swing more level and through the ball, like Sheffield, seem to be more apt to get out on their front leg. Less tilt because from that position its pretty difficult.

You can't see his back foot in that Sheffield shot, but looking at the pic, its clear he's not planted and rotated. The foot would appear to off the ground at impact and is just now coming back down. Or maybe he hasn't made contact yet, and the foot is still rising.

virg

07-17-2006, 04:03 PM

Sultan, hellborn...
I know what it meant fifty years ago and would say that per that you're on the scent.

w-doggy, who used the term and how old is he?

Sultan_1895-1948

07-17-2006, 05:15 PM

Virg,

How would you say the definition has changed from then to now?

Would you agree that Aaron was a front foot hitter as well as being "wristy?"

And what about Mays.

virg

07-17-2006, 08:18 PM

Sultan,
Some shift weight forward [1]harder, some [2] further forward.
Both kinds may contact with back foot leaving [maybe off] the ground.
[1] could have a normal rotater frontside angle, straighter knee
[2] maybe a more vertical frontside, bending knee absorbs some shift
Lau did say ('some get further over the front foot but I don't know how').. I'd say it takes shorter footwork with more shift. But shifting past center weakens pivot, and it's a can of worms from there

Has definition of 'frontfoot hitter' changed over the years?
Am not aware of it but we may soon find out.

was Aaron 'wristy'? This Q too is wormy so let's try to be careful. "wristhitter" was defined in that crowd (T.Wms, Lau, Aaron and earlier folks) as one who hits forcefully, on-the-rollover.

Wms called it impossible; no word on context.. impossible in rotational, or universally

Aaron himself has said he was not a wristhitter (didn't contact on-rollover).
Universal agreement is that a rotational swing hitting on-rollover, is a failed swing.

Aaron has a few times been quoted that he "used my wrists", yet also denied being a 'wristhitter'(on-rollover).
I have heard of no further explanation by Aaron on how he applied wrists in his rotational swing.
I have no ideas, except I hope he explains before checking out and I hope to someone able to communicate these things in a *disinterested* way.

Yes I've seen clips of Aaron with back foot high.
I have no idea about Mays.

Sultan, Your moniker hints that you may have a collection of Ruth films. If this is so, you should be able to get a few insights therein on front leg, frontside, and some more oldtimer stuff.

Jake Patterson

07-17-2006, 08:35 PM

Sultan, Your moniker hints that you may have a collection of Ruth films. If this is so, you should be able to get a few insights therein on front leg, frontside, and some more oldtimer stuff.

Most of the swings I've seen of the Babe showed his signature lower body twist. His weight always seemed to be more evenly displaced than today's hitters.
11304

How would you hitting gurus analyze or critique his swing if he was playing today? Do you feel he would have been effective in today's game???

Jake Patterson

07-17-2006, 08:41 PM

How would you hitting gurus analyze or critique his swing if he was playing today? Do you feel he would have been effective in today's game???

Here's a couple more
11305 11306

After seeing these it appears his weight stays back - at least in these swings..

virg

07-17-2006, 09:00 PM

Jake,
Do you see, as I think I do, much shorter footspreads usually? Wide sometimes (see the Sultan's action logo)?
Have you seen the film of him clouting one, then trotting the bases all the way around? It's shown a few times around opening day. Frontside vertical thru contact, front foot skidding and plowing dirt a couple of inches thru contact, unbelievable strength and control shown.

Jake Patterson

07-17-2006, 09:02 PM

Jake,
Do you see, as I think I do, much shorter footspreads usually? Wide sometimes?
Have you seen the film of him clouting one, then trotting the bases all the way around? It's shown a few times around opening day. Frontside vertical thru contact, front foot skidding and plowing dirt a couple of inches thru contact, unbelievable strength and control shown.

Virg, what do you think of his swing in today's game? Could he compete?

virg

07-17-2006, 09:19 PM

Jake,
If he showed up bangin' it I guess they'd let him go. If not, they'd mess with his cut. Maybe he'd pitch for 25 years.

Have seen quotes by Lau and Wms and (?) other gurus that they 'can't see where the power came from'. But I see Web hotshot gurus who call it their very own way, no question!

hellborn

07-17-2006, 09:23 PM

Most of the swings I've seen of the Babe showed his signature lower body twist. His weight always seemed to be more evenly displaced than today's hitters.
............
How would you hitting gurus analyze or critique his swing if he was playing today? Do you feel he would have been effective in today's game???

I''m no guru, but Babe's swing sure doesn't remind me of any modern hitter. Look carefully at the clip under Sultan's name and try to think of anybody even close to that now...offhand, I can only think of Sheffield as having that kind of powerful drive off the back leg, but their swings are not really similar. That said, I would really hesitate to say that the Babe couldn't have been successful in the modern game...I feel that an unusually high percentage of the top hitters in any period had swings that were very different from most other hitters. Think about guys like Sheffield, Ruth, Simmons, Hornsby, Rudy York, Yaz, Musial, etc. It is often said that they succeeded in spite of their "flawed" mechanics, but maybe they were so good BECAUSE they weren't afraid to adopt a distinctive style that worked well for them.

And, if the Babe's long and extremely powerful stride made him more vulnerable to modern pitching, he would have adjusted and still been an amazing hitter.

The thing that amazes me about Ruth the most is that he faced towards the catcher slightly in his stance, and would end up with his hips sometimes facing directly away from home plate...I mean, the man was really getting some massive trunk turn!

virg

07-17-2006, 09:42 PM

Guys,
Something you gotta watch out for, on the Ruth photography. There was a photographer billed as the 'greatest Ruth photographer of them all' .. his name eludes now... followed him everywhere, had a great library of Ruth photos, built a copyright based business with them.

Obviously blown swings sometimes used as 'evidence' in applauding his form. Legs twisted up, head back, eyes shut in disgust at being fooled into severely blowing a swing, but the caption reads like dynamite proof.

A clip at setpro shows him shuffling forward then striding very long to swing. Paul's interpretation; it was a four-foot stride. Mine, that he was screwing around and hit a long throw. But everything he did was news, the public was gullible, photogs and writers cashed in.

Sultan_1895-1948

07-17-2006, 11:45 PM

But everything he did was news, the public was gullible, photogs and writers cashed in.

lol, you say that as if Ruth was offering a false product. This wasn't the case. Was there hype, sure, but the spark and the flame were created by Ruth himself. The writers at times sprinkled gasoline on the fire. An example is after his 12th homer in '20, the NY Times wrote "Ruth caught one of Johnson's bullet flings on the end of his bat and shot the ball against the facade of the upper deck in right fieild and almost tore away part of the roof"."

A clip at setpro shows him shuffling forward then striding very long to swing.

I've seen a clip of him doing that. Its on a DVD. Probably the same one. He's choking up a bit and he gets a shuffle start. That wasn't a normal thing as you know.

I think we could all agree that if he played today he could never use a 47 ounce bat, or even the 34 1/2 ounce that he used to belt his last three in Pittsburgh. He'd make an adjustment, no prob. Give him helmet, batting gloves, smaller zone, blah, blah, etc, etc...just bring with him the physiological gifts.

Here's a shot of him whiffing. EDIT: This was actually just a strike. He ended up walking in this AB. The year was '27.

virg

07-18-2006, 04:19 AM

Didn't mean his was a false product. The news they made of trivia was 'false product'.

Why couldn't he compete now?
He batted .345 lifetime, didn't he?

Sultan_1895-1948

07-18-2006, 04:23 AM

.342, but who's keepin' track ;)

I would say he not only would compete now, he'd be at least on the Pujols level of production. That is not time machining mind you.

Just read through your post #11. Good stuff.

Stayed away from the "wristy" thing huh. Yeah, around these parts that might invite a barrage.

Before he made it to the pros, wasn't Aaron using a reverse grip and doing quite well with it? If that doesn't scream wrist hitter, who knows what does. Later on in his career, I thought he attributed his quick bat to coming up with a reverse grip. Hmm maybe not.

I have seen several swings of Babe and wouldn't really consider him a classic front foot hitter. Nor Gehrig. He got lower than Babe and simply rotated without much uppercut. The letter-high pitch he seemed to just murder, staying "on top of it."

virg

07-18-2006, 06:56 AM

Give him helmet, batting gloves, smaller zone, blah, blah, etc, etc...just bring with him the physiological gifts.you know how dumb jocks are; he wouldn't know any better than to muscle in and give it hell.

Stayed away from the "wristy" thing huh. Yeah, around these parts that might invite a barrageDid the best I could with what I have, but don't sell me short. I never tested cross-handed under pressure, but did as a kid on the playground, and it really stung them.

Here's another one, about hitting knowitall philosophy. Any time crosshand was mentioned, someone in the crowd chimed in about 'you can break a wrist doin that!', then someone else knows a guy who did or saw it... like the fat lady with the welfare Caddy was seen in every town, like the Corvette sold too cheap as 'an old Chevvy'...... get the idea? Someone in every town knows a guy who knows a guy...... Hitting study becomes sociable and comfy and frowns on DIY. Common knowledge gets too dmn common for comfort.

Stayed away from the "wristy" thing huh. Yeah, around these parts that might invite a barrage
Barrage, who me? Duck!
Check out Ruth's stance; facing catcher, back a bit at pitcher.
Hornsby: stance closed 1", stride 45degrees at pitch lane.
Set up (imaginary) square with plate, stride to pitcher, stroke as usual (palm up/palm down). "normal"
SEE how your wrist-rollover relates to lane and contact area.

NOW set up and stride like Hornsby, and see where that puts rollover.
DO the same with Ruth's stance, and check rollover.
What the hell; while we're at it think about Musial's peek-a-boo setup.
(No I never dared against pitching)

And where do you get those oldtimer pics? Hall of Fame?

hellborn

07-18-2006, 08:14 AM

.342, but who's keepin' track ;)
.....
I have seen several swings of Babe and wouldn't really consider him a classic front foot hitter. Nor Gehrig. He got lower than Babe and simply rotated without much uppercut. The letter-high pitch he seemed to just murder, staying "on top of it."
I wouldn't call Babe a front-foot hitter at all...he did tend to take a huge stride, at least some of the time, but he would really rock back as he was bringing the bat around. Lou was very different from somebody like Hornsby in that he didn't keep a stiff front leg and really kick the back leg up, but would bend the front leg a little and keep the back leg lower. I believe that Foxx was similar, but I have a hard time finding photo confirmation of that.

Why didn't I think of this classic modern example...Clemente was very much a front foot hitter, in my opinion.

virg

07-18-2006, 08:55 AM

hellborn
...he did tend to take a huge stride, at least some of the time,

If I recall right, doesn't that stride begin by lifting, then swinging the front foot back to the rear shin. Then, the forward stage begins from there and lands at a point not unusually far past stance position?

It's a long, from the back shin to touchdown, but isn't it fairly short from starting to landing points? His own kind of kick-stride?

virg

07-18-2006, 08:58 AM

wogdog is smirking, hanging back to see what kinda freeforall he (thinks) he started. Why don't that dog ever bark?

Sultan_1895-1948

07-18-2006, 12:32 PM

hellborn

If I recall right, doesn't that stride begin by lifting, then swinging the front foot back to the rear shin. Then, the forward stage begins from there and lands at a point not unusually far past stance position?

It's a long, from the back shin to touchdown, but isn't it fairly short from starting to landing points? His own kind of kick-stride?

From my understanding, this is what Ruth picked up on from Shoeless Joe Jackson. The exaggerated inward turn. That, and he moved his feet about 8 or 9 inches apart upon setup.

But his front foot doesn't seem to go back at all. He turns his lead leg inward before he strides, but he foot never goes back toward his rear shin at all.

And where do you get those oldtimer pics? Hall of Fame?

Pictures of Babe? You name it and I can probably find it.

But have you checked out Bill's Historical Photo Archive over in the history section? Check out the first page. He has it all indexed by player.

hellborn

07-18-2006, 07:09 PM

hellborn

If I recall right, doesn't that stride begin by lifting, then swinging the front foot back to the rear shin. Then, the forward stage begins from there and lands at a point not unusually far past stance position?

It's a long, from the back shin to touchdown, but isn't it fairly short from starting to landing points? His own kind of kick-stride?
Hey Virg,
Everything I've seen of Ruth shows him taking his stance with his feet very close together (as well as slightly closed and pointed somewhat back towards the catcher), then taking a very long and powerful stride that sometimes ends up bringing the back foot along for the ride towards the end of the swing. I think that photos taken at the end of the swing can give the impression that Babe didn't stride much because his feet are close together, but I think that's because BOTH feet have moved forward during the swing, at different times.
Haven't seen the kick-stride myself, but Ruth played for a long time, and everybody makes adjustments, right? I'd be very interested in seeing this motion if anybody can dig it up.
Virg, I enjoy your posts and your insights into old time hitters.

virg

07-18-2006, 07:33 PM

PullFactor

07-18-2006, 07:45 PM

Sultan_1895-1948

07-18-2006, 08:26 PM

.And all the pics I've seen are not alike.

Yeah, he never had one particular type of swing (seemed to depend on his mood, the pitcher he was facing, and the situation, but I would say his most common swing was not front foot hitting, and his front foot never went backward at all.

virg

07-18-2006, 09:08 PM

Haven't seen the kick-stride myself, but Ruth played for a long time, and everybody makes adjustments, right? I'd be very interested in seeing this motion if anybody can dig it up. Virg, I enjoy your posts and your insights into old time hitters.

Not a high kick. A low back/forward sweep of the foot; low smooth and quick.

Tracking through books, tracking old names, after a key tip I used. What a nightmare, nothing useful, stories of Bobby Thomson's shot everywhere and little else.

Sultan_1895-1948

07-18-2006, 10:05 PM

Hey Virg...

Would be good to have a side view of this bottom picture, but you can kinda see what you're talking about here.

virg

07-18-2006, 10:10 PM

Yeah, if I can stop laughing about the top one.

Sultan_1895-1948

07-18-2006, 10:19 PM

lol, yeah, talk about screwing yourself into the ground, eh.

virg

07-19-2006, 07:12 AM

I know it's difficult, but I think it may be time to consider that Mr. Ruth was a much muscularly stronger, and better mental and visual hitter than he was mechanically compared to today's hitters.
With all of the technology and understanding of the human body behind today's MLB swing, I'd bet that using today's swing, unless it interfered with his ability to make good contact and see the ball, that Mr. Ruth would be more effective given his strength, and natural talent.

He can't be compared mechanically to today's hitters because he used an entirely different mechanical system
("a good working swing is an internally balanced mechanical system" author unkn).

Available technology? Video, internet, and what else?
You have expressed desire to (in your way, for your reasons) stay in the game, in fact excel. Can't you appreciate that need in others, if younger and less gifted, to stay in the game as long as they can?

today's MLB swing is simply today's mlb swing. MLB is show business and takes care of itself. Tech is for the most gifted (with the cash). Who cares about those others who can't quit and cannot stand just watching? Oldtimer stuff works for them (at least).

Dave Cash

07-19-2006, 09:00 AM

remember the era babe and the rest grew up in, that's the way they were taught. i think vlademir guererro swings like ruth from rightside. suzuki is a classic front foot hitter for real. ralph garr, i think batted cross handed.

virg

07-19-2006, 09:21 AM

[QUOTE=Sultan_1895-1948]
Pictures of Babe? You name it and I can probably find it.

You're on big guy! Find me one of him flipping Cobb the birdie!

Sultan_1895-1948

07-19-2006, 12:11 PM

Well geez, why don't you just request a picture of him arguing with Brick Owens while you're at it ;)

Oh wait...I found what you're looking for :D

hellborn

07-19-2006, 09:21 PM

hellborn,
what I called 'kickstride' might go by another label.
Seems like he lifted the knee, moved it back, lowered, smoothly skimmed the foot forward.

And all the pics I've seen are not alike.

I'd like to see anatomical measurements of proportions of some of these guys' frames. Reasons: Williams' final footspread was approx 36", and on him it looks easy a/c looong legs and wiiide hips. Ruth was much more muscular, more masculine frame, but looks a bit like as long-legged and short in the torso, and his footwork is deceptive.

Have you seen pics of him as a rookie?
I've seen some photos from his years as a pitcher in Boston, not sure if I've seen rookie pics in particular. Seemed like Ruth's stance was not as narrow back then, and the stride was not so aggressive. Just impressions from a very few photos, mind you.

hellborn

07-19-2006, 09:26 PM

Hey Virg...

Would be good to have a side view of this bottom picture, but you can kinda see what you're talking about here.
Yeah, bottom one does look like what Virg describes...excellent!

Top one reminds me of Joaquin Andujar at bat...he would swing like that on every pitch. It was fun to see the Cards playing the Cubs, after every Andujar swing, Harry Caray would say, "Heeee hadda CUT....."

Sultan_1895-1948

07-19-2006, 11:38 PM

Harry Caray would say, "Heeee hadda CUT....."

Just don't ask him to pronounce Hideki Irabu.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Non-front foot hitting.

virg

07-20-2006, 05:45 AM

hellborn

07-21-2006, 10:06 AM

Just don't ask him to pronounce Hideki Irabu.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Non-front foot hitting.
Harry doesn't pronounce anything very well anymore...and, it always amazed me that the Cubs got Carl Sandburg out of retirement to play 2B.
I wasn't the biggest Harry fan in Chicagoland, but he was usually fun. Nowadays, even at Fenway, I belt out a big, drunken "HEYYYYYYY!!!" at the end of "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" in honor of HC. After I sing totally random syllables in honor of Ozzie Osbourne.

Babe didn't exactly have classic golf form, did he? That was my biggest problem with playing golf, other than not liking the game...rocking onto my back foot. Could produce a really impressive slice, pushing 90 degrees.

hellborn

07-21-2006, 10:10 AM

If the topic is really front foot hitting;
a. have you read the hitting chapter in Cobb's autobiography? (by/with Al Stump)
b. ever (and where) seen more details on the Hornsby tip about "aim with the knob"?
c. any idea why Brett's photos differ between the cover (frontleg) and inside (back) of The Art of Hitting .300? They are all posed, so Why that way?
a. Haven't read the Cobbiography. Ty just never fascinated me.
b. This is a new one to me, just have heard the Splinter comment that Hornsby REALLY impressed on Teddy the importance of getting a good pitch to hit. Never heard anything mechanical. Rajah and the Kid were obviously very different animals at the plate.
c. I'm not sure if I have that one...think that I have a later book by Lau that used mostly White Sox players as models. I think that Ron Kittle may have been on the cover, which would be totally ironic...

hellborn

07-21-2006, 10:12 AM

Well geez, why don't you just request a picture of him arguing with Brick Owens while you're at it ;)

Oh wait...I found what you're looking for :D
Priceless!!! :laugh
Didn't Cobb pistol whip the Babe after noticing the gesture?

jsiggy

07-24-2006, 01:02 AM

Wow what happened to this place? Swing analysis based on stills - just like grand pappy used to do it. :crazy

hellborn

07-24-2006, 06:47 AM

hellborn,
what I called 'kickstride' might go by another label.
Seems like he lifted the knee, moved it back, lowered, smoothly skimmed the foot forward.

And all the pics I've seen are not alike.
.....

Hey Virg, check out post #379 on this fever page. Looks just like what you're talking about, and the photo's from the side!
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40306&page=16
HB

virg

07-24-2006, 10:44 AM

hellborn,
thanks! that's it, and he's pretty young there. But is it frontleg hitting or is it just some kinda stork position? You ready to try it?

hellborn

07-24-2006, 12:27 PM

hellborn,
thanks! that's it, and he's pretty young there. But is it frontleg hitting or is it just some kinda stork position? You ready to try it?
No prob, virg. Knew that I had to make sure you saw that!
I tried aping some parts of Ruth's swing, at least the one seen in Sultan's header, in my slow pitch swing early in the season, but it threw me off. I can't take that big a stride on any swing and keep my balance. I've drawn some inspiration from Pujol's swing since then and have been pounding the ball pretty good! :)

virg

07-25-2006, 05:58 AM

hellborn, sultan, the reason for

1. Ruth's stance shading at the catcher,
2. Hornsby's striding 45degrees into pitch lane,
3. old time frontleg methods,
........ wanna guess or do I remind you?
A. to make contact on-the-rollover.
B. Frontleg with vertical axis made those packages possible.
C. it is well known that bat speed peaks during rollover
D. Granpappy's way of hopping up a swing.