Need help with some swing analysis

[cartersball]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW0cIlFHruA
side view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qg8iuG6bss
rear view



Ok gurus,
Click on the links above to view some backyard drill video. I have only been around here for about a month, but there is a lot of good info here and I would love to use some of it to help my son Drake. He has always been a good hitter , but as of late he is lacking in power. I'm not talking homerun power but more like get the ball in the outfield grass consistently power. I can't figure out what he is doing wrong so I am hoping you guys can help. I hope to have some live BP video this weekend.

[Ursa Major]

CB, how old is the kid. If he's as young as I think he is, he's likely waaayyyy ahead of his contemporaries. Looks like he's gotta plenty of pop, and good determination. (In fact, he almost seems too serious.) My meager thoughts:

1. The bat looks a little big. What size is it? What size is he? With something lighter, he could wait longer than snap faster, generating more batspeed.

2. The shorts are too big. It almost seems like he could get lost in there. :p

3. To get more power, he could try to load a little more with his hips. His hipload now is simply moving his hips toward the catcher. He could try to turn that front hip in a little and try to develop a bit of tension in his front inner thigh.

4. He might want to tilt over a little bit, both to get more tension in his load and to reach lower pitches.

5. He's got some bat drag -- i.e., his back elbow is getting in front of his hands. With a bit more tilt and emphasis on swinging his back shoulder toward the ball, the elbow can stay back and he should have more batspeed and get more out of his body.

I repeat that these are all things he could do... but I'm not sure I'd worry about extracting every ounce of available power. He looks dang good for his age.

[WonderMonkey]

CB, how old is the kid. If he's as young as I think he is, he's likely waaayyyy ahead of his contemporaries. Looks like he's gotta plenty of pop, and good determination. (In fact, he almost seems too serious.) My meager thoughts:

1. The bat looks a little big. What size is it? What size is he? With something lighter, he could wait longer than snap faster, generating more batspeed.

2. The shorts are too big. It almost seems like he could get lost in there. :p

3. To get more power, he could try to load a little more with his hips. His hipload now is simply moving his hips toward the catcher. He could try to turn that front hip in a little and try to develop a bit of tension in his front inner thigh.

4. He might want to tilt over a little bit, both to get more tension in his load and to reach lower pitches.

5. He's got some bat drag -- i.e., his back elbow is getting in front of his hands. With a bit more tilt and emphasis on swinging his back shoulder toward the ball, the elbow can stay back and he should have more batspeed and get more out of his body.

I repeat that these are all things he could do... but I'm not sure I'd worry about extracting every ounce of available power. He looks dang good for his age.

I was thinking the bat drag could be a product of the large bat.

[Jake Patterson]

He looks dang good for his age.

1. I would add that I would slow his routine down a little. In the first clip he puts the ball on the tee and hits with little time to set. The second clip is better. It's difficult to learn anything unless there is some analysis going on. "Where did that ball go?" "Why do you think it went there?" "What are we trying to fix?" "What are we going to do to fix it?" Etc....

2. If you slow the clips down and go frame by frame he seems to swing slightly different on every swing in spite of the ball being in the same place. Clip 2 swing 1 has very different results than swing 2. If you put them side by side and hold at contact you can see some differences.

I'll leave it to the gurus to suggest specific items than may help. I agree with UM and think his swing in general is very good.

[cartersball]

Thank you all for the replies.

CB, how old is the kid. If he's as young as I think he is, he's likely waaayyyy ahead of his contemporaries. Looks like he's gotta plenty of pop, and good determination. (In fact, he almost seems too serious.)

Drake is eight turning nine next March. I wouldn't say he his way ahead of them athleticly but as far as sheer determination and knowledge of the game, he surpasses many in my view. No one at his age practices as much as he does. I agree he does seem too serious, his game face is more serious than that.

1. The bat looks a little big. What size is it? What size is he? With something lighter, he could wait longer than snap faster, generating more batspeed.

Bat is 29/16.5, considered a lighter two piece bat but kids this age don't seem to be strong enough to get the pop out of a two piece bat. He is 4'6" and 78lbs btw.

3. To get more power, he could try to load a little more with his hips. His hipload now is simply moving his hips toward the catcher. He could try to turn that front hip in a little and try to develop a bit of tension in his front inner thigh.

4. He might want to tilt over a little bit, both to get more tension in his load and to reach lower pitches.

5. He's got some bat drag -- i.e., his back elbow is getting in front of his hands. With a bit more tilt and emphasis on swinging his back shoulder toward the ball, the elbow can stay back and he should have more batspeed and get more out of his body.

I understand the hip load. Tilt over?? Like over the plate a little? I see the elbow and we will definitely work on that. I originally taught him using Dusty Baker's Systematic Approach to Hitting. Same book my high school coach used many years ago. It worked well for him through coach pitch but now in kid pitch as I said he just doesn't seem to hit the ball hard anymore. I am seeing now that maybe some more refined principles might help. Hope to find those here.
BTW I will take some video this evening from his BP scrimmage to compare with his drill swing. I will post it tonight.

[cartersball]

Jake old friend, you are truly correct here, he is rushing. I also think that is the reason his swing is at so many different planes when the ball remains in the same place. Could also be that the bat is too heavy, but his last bat was an ounce heavier and he used it in coach pitch at age six. Don't know, but I will show him. Thanks.

[cartersball]

Okay, BP scrimmage tonight and he was one for two. The swing in this video resulted in a bloop single over the second basemans head. I am seeing the elbow in front of the bat head aka bat drag. Any tips on eliminating this would be great, and ofcourse a fresh perspective from some of you. Feel free to post anything you see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYZHIKvcAZY

Oh yeah BTW Ursa, the shorts were kinda big, but the baseball uniform looks right.:p

[Jake Patterson]

Feel free to post anything you see.


How old is the catcher??? He's a foot taller!

Look at his head in relation to the fence behind him. Too much movement.

[cartersball]

LOL the catcher is 10 turning 11 in a few months I think. Drake is playing Extended League this summer through LL baseball. They play against other teams from LL's in our area. All the other leagues here still use the Coach pitch, Minors, Majors system where as our league uses a 3 stage minors system. He wanted to play kid pitch just like he did this spring so he looks real small. I do notice the head movement and you're right there is alot there. I hadn't seen this before. Could he be losing the ball out of the pitchers hand?

[cartersball]

Okay after todays two games Drake is 0-1 (K, Sac bunt, BB, BB). He has good plate vision, but I am wondering if he is suffering from the same problem as some of the other kids on this team, and that problem is fear of swinging the bat. It seems as though they wait till the last second to decide. A lot of this can be chalked up to inexperience against kid pitching I believe. Does anyone know what to do about this? We scrimmage with kids pitching for the last half of practice all the time and I have noticed none of the kids seem to hit the ball as well off of the kid as they do from myself or another coach. Any ideas??

[Jake Patterson]

Could he be losing the ball out of the pitchers hand?

Turn your head sideways slightly, pick an object on a wall and move your head up and down and side to side. You can see the object becomes blurred or jumps around. Now hold you head still..... Same thing happens when your hitting.

[Jake Patterson]

Okay after todays two games Drake is 0-1 (K, Sac bunt, BB, BB). He has good plate vision, but I am wondering if he is suffering from the same problem as some of the other kids on this team, and that problem is fear of swinging the bat. It seems as though they wait till the last second to decide. A lot of this can be chalked up to inexperience against kid pitching I believe. Does anyone know what to do about this? We scrimmage with kids pitching for the last half of practice all the time and I have noticed none of the kids seem to hit the ball as well off of the kid as they do from myself or another coach. Any ideas??

Very common problem with this age group. There are two ways in which to make the decision to swing.

1. Swing at everything and make the decision to stop.... or
2. Here come the ball and decide to swing.

It's easier to stop a swing than to start one.

[GFK]

...and that problem is fear of swinging the bat. It seems as though they wait till the last second to decide. ...

Before they get into the batter's box, they need to decide they are going to swing at every pitch. With that decision out of the way, when the pitch is coming they need to say "hold" if it looks unhitable (may be a ball but still be hitable).

If they are making the decision to swing as the pitch is coming, it will be to late.

[cartersball]

Very good ideas, don't know why I didn't think of them. Thanks for the fresh perspective. I am also looking for some good team building activities for ages 8-10. Anybody got any ideas on this?

[sfgiants29]

Considering his age, he has an AMAZING swing. One thing he could work on is his step. It seems as if he's stepping backwards with his back foot instead of taking a nice light step with his front foot.

[Ursa Major]

Hey CartersB, that bat is on the high end of alright for his size. Anything shorter will cost you plate coverage, and you can't get anything lighter at that length. What is it, and Easton SC777 or SC888? Or a Stealth? If so, good bats.
I understand the hip load. Tilt over?? Like over the plate a little? I see the elbow and we will definitely work on that. I originally taught him using Dusty Baker's Systematic Approach to Hitting. Same book my high school coach used many years ago. It worked well for him through coach pitch but now in kid pitch as I said he just doesn't seem to hit the ball hard anymore. I am seeing now that maybe some more refined principles might help. Hope to find those here.The tilt over is the "posture" in the "Posture/connection/rotation" holy trinity. Steve Englishbey is the guru on these issues -- I could try to explain why it's important, but maybe you should just search through his posts and let him explain it. Or PM him and buy from him his Basic Swing Training DVD, which demonstrates it all and would be perfect for this level of hitter.

In my eyes, the tilt is important because (a) it lets kids reach the low outside pitches, (b) it builds tension along the front side muscles, and (c) during the rotation it maximizes the effect of rotational forces by keeping the spine at 90 degrees to the swing plane, just like a discus thrower does when he's rotating around the launch circle. During the course of the launch and swing, the batter adjusts to the height of the pitch by changing the angle of the tilt so that the spine remains at that angle to the swing plane.

I understand your following some of the Dusty Baker stuff -- I did too several years ago -- but have since seen the light. He may have been a successful major league hitting coach, but his advice for kids is poison. JBooth (who coaches kids professionally) has a lot to say about Baker, and none of it good. I'm surprised he hasn't jumped in yet.

Getting kids to swing at that age can be dang hard. They can always rationalize reasons not to. Start with the mantra that every pitch is a strike until and unless they realize that it's not. Tell them to go into full stride mode for every pitch (unless it's coming at them). If they go into it with the mindset that they'll only swing if they see it's a strike, they'll be too late. And instruct them that, when it turns out to be a ball, they should feel mad at the pitcher for depriving them of the opportunity to swing.

Another common problem for not swinging is that the kids' stance and launch position is faulty or too passive. Often, the mind subconsciously knows that the batter isn't ready and refuses to pull the trigger. With some kids, I can tell with 90% accuracy before the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand whether the kid will swing if it's a strike. Have them practice going into launch position and growling over and over.

[cartersball]

Ursa,
The bat is an Easton Havoc. Like I said I just don't see where a two piece bat is very effective for this age group. If they can't get enough force behind it to make the bat bend, or don't hit the ball within the sweet spot, the ball just seems dead off the barrel. I have spoken over the phone wiht Steve and we are currrently working on some of what he explained to me. Definitely planning on buying the DVD.:D

[Ursa Major]

Carter, I didn't know the Havoc had that big a drop. On the "two piece" Stealth bats, I agree that the whip effect is minimal with kids that small, but the bounce off the bat from the nano-carbon technology can be impressive with almost any swing. Also, you almost never get stinging hands, which can be a problem with small kids who don't grip the bat that well.

Glad you're getting Steve's DVD. Once you get it, you can forget everything I said.

[flea45]

Hey cartersball, i think you gotta give the kid some space and let him develop a little more before you feed him too much information. kids that age (me a few years back) can definately not be thinking at the plate. giving them more and more information, especially is he is not happy with his game will only get him thinking about it more - never a good thing for anyone. i would keep it as basic as possible (i coach a team of kids this age, and all i do is tell them to swing on a flat plane) until he gets at least a few years older

[GFK]

...all i do is tell them to swing on a flat plane) until he gets at least a few years older

A flat plane parallel to the ground?

A flat plane perpendicular to the spine?

[Jake Patterson]

Hey cartersball, i think you gotta give the kid some space and let him develop a little more before you feed him too much information.

The key with young players is not to give them more things to think about it's giving them ques and instruction that allows them to swing correctly more naturally - muscle memory.

I agree with don't give them a lot to think about, but that doesn't mean you can't teach.

[cartersball]

He has plenty of space if he chooses to use it. He wants to practice everyday. He wants to be the best at it, and he wants to be perfect at doing it. As Jake has said " He is determined." Believe me when I say I was never this way. My coaches were lucky to get me to pay attention long enough to catch what position I would be playing in. In fact, when he first started playing I told my wife I would never coach him. I didn't want to pressure him in to doing anything the way I have seen many other parents do thier kids. During his first season of t-ball I coached a 14u travel ball team. I went to many of his games but not all of them. On one particular day I came home from a long weekend with the older boys and asked him how his game went. He answered "If you would have been there you wouldn't have to ask." and from the "mouths of babes" I learned quickly that he wanted my help more than anyone elses.
I make him take time off when he gets frustrated and have even held him out of games as a punishment for behavior at home or at school. But, I have never forced him to do something to better himself. I only give him advice when he asks for it.

[Jake Patterson]

Carter,

You have to piss with the puppies before you can bark with the dogs

We need to give credit where credit is due. This was a favorite saying of my old Platoon Sergeant. SFC Norman Dutram, Company B, 242d Combat Engineers.

[BearsCoach13]

Here's a useful tip...

While he is working on the tee, have your son visualize a pitcher behind the netting. Have him visualize the ball being delivered to the spot where it sits on the tee. If you want, go stand behind the net (at a comparable distance to what he sees in the game) and go through the motions of delivering a pitch.

Obviously, this won't help correct any swing flaws, but it will promote good habits and using the tee to its full advantage.

No one hits by starring at the space where the ball will eventually be (the tee)...they track it to that spot.

[flea45]

A flat plane parallel to the ground?

A flat plane perpendicular to the spine?


Ideally both, but to me its more important that its flat to the gorund. Its more of an overexxageration thing to try and stop their ugly uppercuts. I swing with a slight upper cut, and i do think that a slight uppercut is more benneficial, but not when it goes to far the other way (ala' ted williams) Most of them still swing with an upper cut and try to smash it as far as they can, but i started saying this they uppercuts are slowly becoming more level

[jimmiemac]

Here's a useful tip...

While he is working on the tee, have your son visualize a pitcher behind the netting. Have him visualize the ball being delivered to the spot where it sits on the tee. If you want, go stand behind the net (at a comparable distance to what he sees in the game) and go through the motions of delivering a pitch.

Obviously, this won't help correct any swing flaws, but it will promote good habits and using the tee to its full advantage.



No, don't do this. Tee work is to work on mechanics and not timing. There is no way he could visual the timing correctly and will not only add useless steps to his activity (and wasted time) it could ultimately be harmful to his on-field performance.

[jsiggy]

Ideally both, but to me its more important that its flat to the gorund. Its more of an overexxageration thing to try and stop their ugly uppercuts. I swing with a slight upper cut, and i do think that a slight uppercut is more benneficial, but not when it goes to far the other way (ala' ted williams) Most of them still swing with an upper cut and try to smash it as far as they can, but i started saying this they uppercuts are slowly becoming more level

I'm not sure how you hit a knee high pitch with a level swing?

The quicker you get a hitter to undersand a level swing perpendicular to the spine, the better IMO. Lower pitch, requires more torso tilt.

Nyman's animations showed this best IMO.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/animations/cd102_Momentum_lr.gif

[cartersball]

The quicker you get a hitter to undersand a level swing perpendicular to the spine, the better IMO. Lower pitch, requires more torso tilt.

Well said jsiggy! I am eagerly awaiting the Englishbey DVD so I can better explain this to my son. He is constantly looking at the pictures you guys post and trying to copy them in his form. He is gaining some ground but he has a ways to go.

Here ya go Jake!

[flea45]

jsiggy, i did mean it as more of a exageration thing, but point well taken. i had never really looked to closely at that. i watched some film of me hitting and noticed that i did follow your diagram, something i hadnt yet realized i did on occasions when i put a solid swing on the ball down in the zone, a definate weakness of mine. (with my tape, i try to focus on looking at my at bats with better swings.....usually on pitches a bit higher in the zone...i try not to worry about bad swings but rather emphasise things i do well in successful at bats) just the way i have been working since i started using video tape. thanks for this little bit of info.... might turn this weakness into more of a strength now that ive got a different way of thinking on these types of pitches

[Jake Patterson]

i had never really looked to closely at that. i watched some film of me hitting....

Flea, go to siggy's blog and take a look at the pro hitters he has there. http://imageevent.com/siggy;jsessionid=p9b72u6rj2.buffalo_s

You'll see they have a great deal in common.... and none swing parallel to the ground.

[GFK]

.... and none swing parallel to the ground.

Unless it is a pitch at the very top of the zone.

[cartersball]

One week of practice with Steve's DVD and we have improved. 2-2 tonight:) , I will try to post some video after tommorows games.

[Mark H]

No, don't do this. Tee work is to work on mechanics and not timing. There is no way he could visual the timing correctly and will not only add useless steps to his activity (and wasted time) it could ultimately be harmful to his on-field performance.

If he practices on the tee looking at the tee instead of looking out toward the pitcher, THAT will likely lead to problems.

[Jake Patterson]

Nyman's animations showed this best IMO.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/animations/cd102_Momentum_lr.gif

Siggy who asked you to pull the clip down???

[jsiggy]

Siggy who asked you to pull the clip down???

Nyman requested all Setpro material including his animations be removed.

[Baseball gLove]

I don't know about the bat being too heavy. Only the smaller kids on my Coach Pitch U6 team were using the 16 oz. All of the kids on my team hit off of the pitch. The better hitters were not allowed to go to tee and were subject to strikeout.

Your sons bat drag is minimal, and in some swings not there. He may be extending his hands a little early and he is not swinging hard, both rob him of power. I agree that he is taking his cuts too quickly. He should take his time and look to swing harder. I don't see anything wrong with his foot work. My 6 year old, (he'll be 7 in September) normally swings a 27-18. Yesterday, he was swinging a 31-25 oz wood choked up (it was the only bat available at the time) and was hitting linedrives 130 to 150 feet.

[Jake Patterson]

Nyman requested all Setpro material including his animations be removed.

That's too bad...From a marketing standpoint it was a great way for him to advertise.

I'll have to check. From an academic standpoint using his pictures for discussions and non-publish use should be ok as long as you give credit where's credit is due. Once he puts the work in the public domain.... But then again I am not a copyright lawyer.

[Baseball gLove]

No, don't do this. Tee work is to work on mechanics and not timing. There is no way he could visual the timing correctly and will not only add useless steps to his activity (and wasted time) it could ultimately be harmful to his on-field performance.

I'm with Bears coach on this one. While I do want the kids to focus on the ball, I want them to associate hitting off the T as the means to improve their hitting of a pitched ball, versus hitting better off of the T.

[jsiggy]

That's too bad...From a marketing standpoint it was a great way for him to advertise.

I'll have to check. From an academic standpoint using his pictures for discussions and non-publish use should be ok as long as you give credit where's credit is due. Once he puts the work in the public domain.... But then again I am not a copyright lawyer.

Jake I'm pretty sure you're correct. Both that it was good advertising (it had a logo on it indicating where it came from) as well as the fact that it's almost certainly okay to use since he put it in the public domain. I was just doing it out of respect to his request.

I have some ideas on how to show the concept in a similar fashion and hope to get to it soon - if real work well will ever quit interrupting me.

john

[Mark H]

Ideally both, but to me its more important that its flat to the ground.

Which of these swings are flat to the ground?

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro

[Jake Patterson]

Which of these swings are flat to the ground?

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro

That's easy. None!

[Mark H]

I don't make the point in order to try to be a smart aleck jerk. I do want those who teach kids to constantly check what they teach against slow motion video of the best in the world.

[jimmiemac]

If he practices on the tee looking at the tee instead of looking out toward the pitcher, THAT will likely lead to problems.

What pitcher?

Yes, kids have a difficult time distinguishing between hitting off a tee and live hitting. They should envision a child winding up and throwing along with 7 other fielders every time they hit off the tee so they can not only time that imaginary pitch correctly, but also hit it into the gaps.

It will be a very productive exercise.

[BenSamLewis]

What pitcher?

Yes, kids have a difficult time distinguishing between hitting off a tee and live hitting. Most kids around here can differentiate between the two. If not, we just explain that when we put the ball on a tee, we're hitting off a tee.

But your point about making any drill work as realistic as possible - if only in the mind of the one doing the drill work - is a good one.

[Mark H]

What pitcher?

Yes, kids have a difficult time distinguishing between hitting off a tee and live hitting. They should envision a child winding up and throwing along with 7 other fielders every time they hit off the tee so they can not only time that imaginary pitch correctly, but also hit it into the gaps.

It will be a very productive exercise.

The pitcher you describe them envisioning in the second sentence of your second paragraph.

[Mark H]

Most kids around here can differentiate between the two. If not, we just explain that when we put the ball on a tee, we're hitting off a tee.

But your point about making any drill work as realistic as possible - if only in the mind of the one doing the drill work - is a good one.

I thought that was the point already made? Did JM just disagree with a point and then argue for it in the same thread? Perhaps I'm not following something here?

[jimmiemac]

I thought that was the point already made? Did JM just disagree with a point and then argue for it in the same thread? Perhaps I'm not following something here?

Sarcasim is obviously lost to many here.

You want to make efficient use of time and while visualization can be effective, visualizing non-existent pitching motions before hitting off a tee is counter-productive. Visualizing your swing motion can be productive because of immediate and accurate feedback. You have no feedback on the visualization of the pitchers motion and made be completely off without knowing it and carry those poor skills to the live game.

[jimmiemac]

The pitcher you describe them envisioning in the second sentence of your second paragraph.

Hey thanks. How tall is he, what is his release point, what pitch is he throwing and how hard is he throwing so my kid can get his timing down?

[Mark H]

Sarcasim is obviously lost to many here.

Visualizing your swing motion can be productive because of immediate and accurate feedback. .

Can you explain this further?

[Mark H]

Hey thanks. How tall is he, what is his release point, what pitch is he throwing and how hard is he throwing so my kid can get his timing down?

Well he's darn sure not standing by the tee is he? Looking down at the tee can change posture promoting things such as counter rotation. Look out at the "pitcher" with only a corner of the eye glance to find the ball.

[cartersball]

I was unable to get any video with Drake hitting. He walked four times Sat. and once Sun. Was hoping for a hit in his last AB on Sun. but we needed the run so we had him sac bunt. Worked out well :). We will try again this weekend.

[jimmiemac]

Well he's darn sure not standing by the tee is he? Looking down at the tee can change posture promoting things such as counter rotation. Look out at the "pitcher" with only a corner of the eye glance to find the ball.

Well then how fast should he rotate his focus from the "pitcher" to the ball? You think most kids will do this too fast? How do you think it will affect his timing vs live pitching? What path should his focus maintain from looking at the "pitcher" until he can finally focus on the ball which has been still on the tee? You think when he finally finds the ball that path will have lead him directly there?

You mention "only a corner of the eye glance to find the ball". Is this what you want happening against live pitching? Are you really teaching this to your kids?

I prefer teaching them to find the ball as soon as possible and maintining focus on the ball as long as possible. Your method is counter-productive to what I want my hitters doing and definitely will not teach such. I want focus on the ball, not the pitcher, especially a pitcher who isn't there. I want them watching the spin on the ball, the location of the ball, where it was released, etc. I couldn't care less about them looking at a pitcher.

[chesspirate]

if the posture is set correctly and the swing follows the intended swing plane, the hitter doesn't even have to look at the ball, he will hit it because his angles were set properly.

[GFK]

Well then how fast should he rotate his focus from the "pitcher" to the ball? You think most kids will do this too fast? How do you think it will affect his timing vs live pitching? What path should his focus maintain from looking at the "pitcher" until he can finally focus on the ball which has been still on the tee? You think when he finally finds the ball that path will have lead him directly there?

You mention "only a corner of the eye glance to find the ball". Is this what you want happening against live pitching? Are you really teaching this to your kids?

I prefer teaching them to find the ball as soon as possible and maintining focus on the ball as long as possible. Your method is counter-productive to what I want my hitters doing and definitely will not teach such. I want focus on the ball, not the pitcher, especially a pitcher who isn't there. I want them watching the spin on the ball, the location of the ball, where it was released, etc. I couldn't care less about them looking at a pitcher.

Jimmiemac, I think you are missing Mark H’s point. No hitter starts his swing by looking at the point of contact. This will change the posture.

Do you subscribe to the idea of seeing the ball hit the bat? If so, you may want to do some research. I would suggest you start with Adair. From what I have studied, eye tracking is not sufficient to watch the ball to the bat during the last several feet of travel prior to impact. I have read some information that states the peripheral (spelling) vision "corner of the eye glance" plays more of a role in tracking the ball then conventional wisdom acknowledges. If you walk frame-by-frame through slow motion video of the best, you will notice they appear, at the point of contact, to be looking a few feet out past the ball toward the pitcher.

Even if eye tracking was sufficient to watch the ball to the bat, the hitter has determined the timing and location of the pitch while it is several feet out and has initiated the swing. To change the swing path during the last few feet of ball travel would require considerable disconnection and more than likely exceed human reaction time.

Your desire to have your hitters pick up the ball as soon as possible is sound. Just answer me this, how can they do this if their motor program for swinging a bat was developed while looking down at the point of contact during initiation of the swing?

But you do what you think is best. We are all in this for the kids, aren’t we?

[dannyboy]

jimmiemac,

I agree with you.

The whole point to using a baseball tee is to eliminate the pitcher. To eliminate the need to predict. To free up visual cognitive processing in order to work solely on hand-eye proper mechanics in different parts of the hitting zone. No need to process pitcher’s arm angle, pitcher’s hand and fingers, pitcher’s launch angle, ball’s spin, ball’s speed.
The reason tee-ball (as a game) was invented.
And why complicate the vision/motor process with only viewing the ball peripherally? Because that’s what happens in a real situation? The tee is not a real situation. If you want a real situation then simply have a pitcher pitch. Simulating saccadic and smooth-pursuit eye movements is best achieved by mental imagery before an actual pitch. If you want to work on that, just do it – with a pitcher, that is.
Batters use one of two strategies in tracking the pitch (no need to go into each now) and both use peripheral vision to a degree, but unnecessarily burdening a hitter with not permitting him to have a direct visual is counterproductive to the use of the tee. You are not/should not be working on speed and movement of the ball during tee drills, - only location.

[Mark H]

Well then how fast should he rotate his focus from the "pitcher" to the ball? You think most kids will do this too fast? How do you think it will affect his timing vs live pitching? What path should his focus maintain from looking at the "pitcher" until he can finally focus on the ball which has been still on the tee? You think when he finally finds the ball that path will have lead him directly there?

You mention "only a corner of the eye glance to find the ball". Is this what you want happening against live pitching? Are you really teaching this to your kids?

I prefer teaching them to find the ball as soon as possible and maintining focus on the ball as long as possible. Your method is counter-productive to what I want my hitters doing and definitely will not teach such. I want focus on the ball, not the pitcher, especially a pitcher who isn't there. I want them watching the spin on the ball, the location of the ball, where it was released, etc. I couldn't care less about them looking at a pitcher.

I think if you looked for my point rather than trying to think of ways to disagree it might be better. The point is, working on the tee can produce postural inefficiencies and odd positions that might not appear working against a pitched ball due to the head pointing down at the tee. Mandating starting with a realistic posture in terms of looking at the location where a pitcher would be standing is a partial defense against this. Counter rotation would be one example of a postural inefficiency that often sneaks in during a lot of tee work.

[jsiggy]

Summary:

Mark & GFK say looking directly at the tee can cause postural issues such as counter rotation.

Jimmiemac and Ray say that trying to time or pretend the pitcher is throwing when hitting off a tee is not helpful.

Anybody disagree with the other?

[WonderMonkey]

Summary:

Mark & GFK say looking directly at the tee can cause postural issues such as counter rotation.

Jimmiemac and Ray say that trying to time or pretend the pitcher is throwing when hitting off a tee is not helpful.

Anybody disagree with the other?

Nope, but those things are what I was taught and what I tell my players to do.

And that is why I like this site. These things can be examined and I can make the choice to either continue doing what I'm doing, or change it.

[dannyboy]

Mark H,

Originally posted by Mark H
I think if you looked for my point rather than trying to think of ways to disagree it might be better.

whom are you addressing, please? jimmiemac? me? the board?

[pgibbons]

Counter rotation would be one example of a postural inefficiency that often sneaks in during a lot of tee work.

This is true - at least in my case it is. And I have found that counter-rotation is a tough habit to break once it's got a hold of you.

[tom.guerry]

another good Hansen guideline:

"I think if you looked for my point rather than trying to think of ways to disagree it might be better."

[Mark H]

Mark H,



whom are you addressing, please? jimmiemac? me? the board?

Ray you can assume I was addressing the author of the post I quoted in the same post where I made the statement you asked about. That's what I always use the quote function for-to give context to the statement I'm about to make. Seems to be standard operating procedure for everyone best I can tell.

[dannyboy]

then fungo was right.

[Mark H]

About what?

[dannyboy]

Postural Inefficiencies like these?


Toe touch:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/toetouch.jpg

Lag:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lag.jpg

Contact:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/contact.jpg

Steve:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lookingattee.jpg



I wish I could post the clip of Brett. (courtesy of dougmac). Unfortunately it is in MPEG format and my webspace only permits clips in GIF or JPEG. I am still learning, and either don’t have the know how, or the right software to convert. I will email anyone the clip, if you can do and want to. It shows how fluid Brett really is. And what ease, to power the ball. No postural ineffieciency. No counter-rotation. Just smack.
Actually, for me, working off a tee with someone is the right place to begin correcting postural inefficiencies.



.

[dannyboy]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=641554&postcount=34

[Mark H]

Fungo is usually right and or he is speaking satirically and or jerking his friends' chains. The post you put up is a long one. I still don't know what you give him credit for being right on this particular time but that's ok. We can just agree he was right...or jerking his friend's chain. ;)

[Jake Patterson]

Steve:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lookingattee.jpg.

Are we saying Steve is using good form here?

[dannyboy]

looks pretty good to me for a one armed swing. could get off the backside more (in viewing the entire clip).
my point in posting the clip was to show where his eyes were looking.

as an aside: since i've first seen it, in looking at that clip, it certainly would be possible for the top hand wrist to push (at the right time to assist/add force) against the bottom hand wrist to create more whip. if steve really wanted to satisfy doubting thomas' he would be advised to lose that top hand and show 'em.



.

[Jake Patterson]

looks pretty good to me for a one armed swing. could get off the backside more (in viewing the entire clip).
my point in posting the clip was to show where his eyes were looking.

as an aside: since i've first seen it, in looking at that clip, it certainly would be possible for the top hand wrist to push (at the right time to assist/add force) against the bottom hand wrist to create more whip. if steve really wanted to satisfy doubting thomas' he would be advised to lose that top hand and show 'em..

A still from a clip can be deceiving

[chesspirate]

at some point in time, almost everyone using a tee will pick up the ball. what Steve suggests is to look out toward the pitcher in your set up and then pick up the ball, the timing is up to you i guess, but the ball does end up in sight.

I understand the thoughts about the one handed swing, but the wrist position is only for stabilization, and i think based on the way the swing finishes, it is safe to say he isn't using the arm to 'push'

[dannyboy]

Jake,

your quote:
A still from a clip can be deceiving


That’s why I prefaced:

(in viewing the entire clip)



Chesspirate,

your quote:
at some point in time, almost everyone using a tee will pick up the ball. what Steve suggests is to look out toward the pitcher in your set up and then pick up the ball, the timing is up to you i guess, but the ball does end up in sight.

But he picks up the ball in frame 6, three frames before toe lift-off (stride initiation). And he’s looking at the eventual contact point. That doesn’t happen when a ball is pitched. What is the point in looking out to a ghost pitcher when you look at the ball on the tee before you begin your stride?

your quote:
…and i think based on the way the swing finishes, it is safe to say he isn't using the arm to 'push'


And I respectfully don’t think it is safe to say.
I didn’t say he did. I said that he could. And to dispel any doubt, he should consider doing the action in a way to leave no doubt. If he cares to, that is.
Frames 16 thru 20 are when a push force could be applied, especially 17 thru 19.
Specifically what about “…the way the swing finishes…” could make it safe to say he isn’t using the top hand arm to push, please?



.

[chan7718]

http://images1.filecloud.com/227648/Brettee.gif

[dannyboy]

thanks much, chan7718.

It shows how fluid Brett really is. And what ease, to power the ball. No postural ineffieciency. No counter-rotation. Just smack.

.

[LClifton]

Ray,
Does Brett show any counter rotation in this clip, to your eye.
Relative to the pitchers mound, It looks like he does.
You're the guy that's good with the lines and angles.
Can you tell me what you see with it?

[chesspirate]

Specifically what about “…the way the swing finishes…” could make it safe to say he isn’t using the top hand arm to push, please?
Can you produce a still of the frame after contact? and the frame after that? those two 'pictures' are what i'm reffering to.

[Jake Patterson]

Ray,
Does Brett show any counter rotation in this clip, to your eye.
Relative to the pitchers mound, It looks like he does.
You're the guy that's good with the lines and angles.
Can you tell me what you see with it?

I put a line through his shoulders. Hmmm....
12589

The problem I have with using a tee is the hitter rotating his shoulders away from the ball to a point where he loses site of the mound, especially the young players.

Thoughts?

[dannyboy]

Fungo (if you’re out there),

Something we touched on earlier, for your kid to try.
Good example (disregard the yellow lines):

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/distancefromplate.jpg

and the tee is set (not in the paint, but…) middle-out-out. Hit oppo. Sweet to sweet. No sweat to cover, and room for way more tilt. In fact if he had tlted more, the rear elbow would’ve been perfect.

Tried to follow through on this earlier (problem inside), but I believe the guy gave up….

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47899



.

[LClifton]

I put a line through his shoulders. Hmmm....

The problem I have with using a tee is the hitter rotating his shoulders away from the ball to a point where he loses site of the mound, especially the young players.

Thoughts?

I don't really have an agenda or trying to prove anything with my question(s) to Ray. My point probably is, that I run into the same thing (counter-rotation) when working off the tee.
Seems without the counter rotation there is not much ooomph.
Maybe the oooomph comes from somewhere else. I dont' know.
What I do know is that with all the kids I work with, they want to turn back first (excessively, at least it looks like to much) before they swing at a ball on the tee.

Just standing there and hitting the ball without generating any movement first ---------------seems to just look like a squish the bug -----
type movement with the lower body. And seems harder for them to maintain connection.
Maybe we're doing tee drills wrong.....i.e. ----trying to hit it too hard off the tee?

[dannyboy]

chesspirate,

no problem. in fact, I'll put up the entire clip if you would ask Steve if he wouldn't mind. i don't think he would object, but .....

or the stills?
whatever you prefer.

[LClifton]

I put a line through his shoulders. Hmmm....


12589
This is the part of the drill I'm referring to.
If he were to try and look at the pitcher from here ---it would be difficult.

Additionally,
He hits the ball right where he should,,,given the location being outside.
Are the shoulders O.K. to be in this position (counter rotated) when doing tee work? Anyone?

LClifton

[dannyboy]

jake and loren,

my definition of counter-rotation is when the upper torso and the hips (lower torso) rotate counter to each other. I don't see that in Brett. Please look at the clip chan put up. (thanks again, chan) Do you guys? or do you have a different interpretation?

as far as the shoulders turned away too much - Brett is stepping into the ball.
and when you stride into the ball the front shoulder closes more in relation to the rear. try it.

[Jake Patterson]

My point probably is, that I run into the same thing (counter-rotation) when working off the tee.

The biggest problem I have experienced with tees is when left to their own devises, hitters especially young unsupervised hitters hitting in a field, become too concerned with distance. The harder they hit the ball the more they tend to counter rotate. The counter rotation creates problems at the plate.

Visual ques physically placed on the screen have helped, but does not always work
We have moved to coach held hitting sticks in lieu of tees.

[Jake Patterson]

my definition of counter-rotation is when the upper torso and the hips (lower torso) rotate counter to each other. I don't see that in Brett. Nor do I

do you have a different interpretation? . Apparently we do. My interpretation is the exagerated inward shoulder turn Brett does before hitting. I now understand your definition.

My discussion may be somewhat tangential to yours and maybe we should handle as two different subjects.

[LClifton]

jake and loren,

my definition of counter-rotation is when the upper torso and the hips (lower torso) rotate counter to each other. I don't see that in Brett. Please look at the clip chan put up. (thanks again, chan) Do you guys? or do you have a different interpretation?

as far as the shoulders turned away too much - Brett is stepping into the ball.
and when you stride into the ball the front shoulder closes more in relation to the rear. try it.

Yes sir, I downloaded the clip and viewed it.
I may have it wrong.
If the shoulders move independently (away from) the pitcher, without corresponding hip movement this would be considered counter rotation?

If the shoulders move in conjunction with hips (proper loading) then it is acceptable?

Ray,
Last thought (question) does this look like more movement away
(it does to me) from the pitcher (shoulders and hips) than you would see in a live-pitching situation?
Due to the fact that it is tee work?

[dannyboy]

Jake,

My interpretation is the exagerated inward shoulder turn Brett does before hitting.

Loren,

Last thought (question) does this look like more movement away
(it does to me) from the pitcher (shoulders and hips) than you would see in a live-pitching situation?

Again, respectfully.

as far as the shoulders turned away too much - Brett is stepping into the ball.
and when you stride into the ball the front shoulder closes more in relation to the rear. try it.

[LClifton]

as far as the shoulders turned away too much - Brett is stepping into the ball.
and when you stride into the ball the front shoulder closes more in relation to the rear. try it.
O.K. I see your point.
I would counter with this (not in an argumentative way) that a stride does not necessarily close the front shoulder.
When I say not necessarily----- it is important to note that he is completing his load -----while striding-----which closes the front shoulder----- and is (my opinion only) this movement ----which involves the rear shoulder and the front hip------ that results in the inward turn moreso than the stride itself.

I'm probably being picky and not really trying to stir anything up. I'm just saying that he does move his body away from the pitcher and I think it is done (IMO) with a well orchestrated load, while striding----- It just appears excessive.
AND (finally, my point) I'm only guessing that it (the inward turn) would not be as much in a live arm / game situation.

Heck for all I know he's working on overdoing his shoulder turn for some particular reason. (just kidding)
(Used to live near the K.C. area but was not invited to this batting practice) LOL.

Lclifton

[Mark H]

What is the point in looking out to a ghost pitcher when you look at the ball on the tee before you begin your stride?


As a check on body position trying to avoid excessive counter rotation or any other postural change that only looking down at the tee might encourage.

[Mark H]

Seems without the counter rotation there is not much ooomph.
Maybe the oooomph comes from somewhere else.

Exactly. :)




.

[Jake Patterson]

as far as the shoulders turned away too much - Brett is stepping into the ball. and when you stride into the ball the front shoulder closes more in relation to the rear.

12596

A reasonable shoulder close might be 10-15 degrees off the line perpendicular to the front of the plate (of course this would depends of pitch location and type). Does it not seem that his shoulder line (yellow) is almost parallel to the plate's front edge making it almost 90 degrees?

Not arguing the mechanics of his swing, more the potential teaching inefficiencies of a tee.

[dannyboy]

Loren,

I would counter with this (not in an argumentative way) that a stride does not necessarily close the front shoulder.

If you stride to a closed stance (heel to toe), keeping the hips parallel to the length direction of the batters box (not in line with the feet) and close the front shoulder (or not), it seems unnatural to me. And I can’t cover the outside pitch as well (the reason for closing off). On the other hand if I stride to a closed stance and permit my hips to align with my feet, and my shoulders to align with my hips, then I can cover that outside corner. I’m assuming that you teach waiting a little longer on an outside pitch.

[dannyboy]

Originally posted by Mark H
As a check on body position trying to avoid excessive counter rotation or any other postural change that only looking down at the tee might encourage.

Then post some clips of major leaguers hitting off a tee while looking out at the space in front of them and not the tee, please.

[Jake Patterson]

Then post some clips of major leaguers hitting off a tee while looking out at the space in front of them and not the tee, please.

Ray are you saying not to look down range at all when hitting off a tee?

[LClifton]

If you stride to a closed stance (heel to toe), keeping the hips parallel to the length direction of the batters box (not in line with the feet) and close the front shoulder (or not), it seems unnatural to me. And I can’t cover the outside pitch as well (the reason for closing off).

You are right. If I'm reading you correctly. If you just stride straight or even stride open it would be both unnatural and you can't cover the outside.
I should have prefaced my comments with "A stride exhibited by many young hitters".....does not necessarily close the shoulders. In fact, the stride really does nothing to close the shoulders, in and of itself.
I still contend that Brett, in this clip, appears to me to be turned inward too far. And I think it is a "tendency" when one is doing tee work.

We certainly attempt to wait longer for the outside location. No doubt.

And I'm assuming you don't teach closed / cross stride to accomplish the reaching of outside pitches.

And, my Dad can beat up yours......
That's what I say when there's nothing left in my limited vocabulary. (grin)
Just a poor attempt at humor, Ray. Think I've been reading too much "Fungo".

Good dialog.

[dannyboy]

Jake,

Yes.

and this is the angle that i see.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bretteeshoulder.gif

[dannyboy]

Loren,

lol.

is that right?

[LClifton]

Loren,

lol.

is that right?
Probably not....by the way, I'm done editing my last post...you can look at it now. (only took me 5 tries)

[dannyboy]

Loren,

And I'm assuming you don't teach closed / cross stride to accomplish the reaching of outside pitches.


correct

[dannyboy]

Loren,

I meant is "lol" right?

[LClifton]

Yup.........

[Mark H]

Then post some clips of major leaguers hitting off a tee while looking out at the space in front of them and not the tee, please.

Now that's funny. MLB tee clips are so available after all. Never mind your continuing misrepresentation using straw man arguments. Still the same after all these years.

[Baseball gLove]

jimmiemac,

I agree with you.

The whole point to using a baseball tee is to eliminate the pitcher. To eliminate the need to predict. To free up visual cognitive processing in order to work solely on hand-eye proper mechanics in different parts of the hitting zone. No need to process pitcher’s arm angle, pitcher’s hand and fingers, pitcher’s launch angle, ball’s spin, ball’s speed.
The reason tee-ball (as a game) was invented.
And why complicate the vision/motor process with only viewing the ball peripherally? Because that’s what happens in a real situation? The tee is not a real situation. If you want a real situation then simply have a pitcher pitch. Simulating saccadic and smooth-pursuit eye movements is best achieved by mental imagery before an actual pitch. If you want to work on that, just do it – with a pitcher, that is.
Batters use one of two strategies in tracking the pitch (no need to go into each now) and both use peripheral vision to a degree, but unnecessarily burdening a hitter with not permitting him to have a direct visual is counterproductive to the use of the tee. You are not/should not be working on speed and movement of the ball during tee drills, - only location.


I have coached many kids that had one swing for hitting off of the "Tee" and another for the pitched ball. I found that by having a teammate pretend to pitch a ball, that it would finally register with the 5 and 6 year olds that the Tee is a training tool. Also, many T-ball leagues require that the pitchers pretend to pitch the ball prior to the batter making an attempt to swing at the ball on the Tee.

[dannyboy]

question for everyone,

what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?

[Baseball gLove]

question for everyone,

what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?


I use the Tee to teach and improve hitting technique to my 14 year old high schooler and to my soon to be 7 year old. My 120 pound freshman is doing well and leads many sophomores and juniors on the high school jv team in hitting. My young one tracks the ball very well and hits for power. I've taught both of my kids rotational techniques. My little guy still has some bat drag, but gets away with it because of his size. As mentioned in a recent post, he was swinging a 30 inch 25 ounce bat (it was the smallest bat available) and was driving the pitched ball with deadly intentions.

[dannyboy]

Baseball Love,

can you expand on "...to teach and improve hitting technique..."?

what specifically do you do?

[Jake Patterson]

question for everyone,

what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?

I don't - I find them to be a deterent to teaching and prefer a hitting stick.

[dannyboy]

questions for those of you that use a tee:
what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?

[dannyboy]

Mark H,

We don’t have to like each other to have a civil discussion.
To that end, we should both cut out the smart-ass stuff.
I tried it with Ohfor, he spit on my hand.
What do you say?


PS. I have often been accused of being guilty of intentional obscurantism (riddles???)
I really don’t see it that way. I think I am very clear, and present as much (if not more supportive evidence) than most. I also provide several links for readers to begin their own research into what I write. I really don’t know why several think I post in riddles. Perhaps it’s because when they read me it becomes a drudge because of the work it may take to truly understand. Or they don’t like to follow up on my links. Or they think science and baseball don’t mix well. Or to stay with me (without getting personal), and get it out. And it’s not fair to assume that I won’t give in on a point. I have, on more than a few occasions, admitted to being wrong. But, it takes a helluva lot to convince me. I just don’t take anyone’s word, and just don’t necessarily believe because the majority does. And being smart with me, doesn’t convince me either. And why I ask so many questions, is to see if who I am talking to really knows his ****. And I mean really.
Maybe most that post don’t wish to get that heavy. Hell, I don’t care. The way I look at it, it’s their loss. Just like those kids that have the drive and those that don’t.

To that end, if you decide to accept my olive branch, what would you have me do to dispel the notion of my talking in riddles?
How about me starting with what I use a tee for, and what I/the hitters work on?





By the way, something to start off on the right foot (ha ha):


Originally posted by Mark H:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy
Then post some clips of major leaguers hitting off a tee while looking out at the space in front of them and not the tee, please.

Now that's funny. MLB tee clips are so available after all. Never mind your continuing misrepresentation using straw man arguments. Still the same after all these years.


Eyes on the tee (teddyballgame):

courtesy of my bud, dougmac. thanks, man.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tedgif.gif




.

[Mark H]

Blank slate. Starting over. Wonder how Ted's tee swings compare to his game swings. ;)

I don't mean to say looking at the tee WILL screw something up. I mean to say, be careful. One check is to look out front.

I use the tee for checking and working on the stroke in any number of ways. Jake, what does the stick do for you the tee doesn't?

[LClifton]

questions for those of you that use a tee:
what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?

I'll go.
Tee work,
Quick example.
Worked with girl that could not hit a ball off the tee to the back of the cage, in the air. Set the tee deeper to try to hit the ball to the right side,,,,,no change.
Rolled over the ball with her hands, cast her hands out and hit around the ball producing little ground balls to the left. (Right-handed batter)

Let me be clear,,,,AMONG MANY THINGS,
We worked on getting her to bend over a little to rotate into the ball better.
So we set a better foundation to turn into the ball as opposed to reaching out with the hands and arms.

Then, I asked her to visualize keeping her hands in a palm up palm down position.

Then I asked her to try to hit the very back of the ball in order to drive it through the middle, on a line, to the back of the cage. In other words, square up the dang bat.!

Yes, I even had her try to hit a pop up to change her swing path from straight down to something that was more conducive to hitting line drives.

So, to talk about specific use of the tee, I would contend that a young, learning hitter should probably learn to hit a stationary ball (well) before giving too many reps with a moving ball.

In addition, various aspects of the swing can be tweaked.
Such as, does this hitter, I am in front of have a rotation that gives out early? Can working off the tee and taking away the stress of hitting a moving ball aid in this? Sure.

Does this hitter have an excessive hand dropping issue? Can we work with the tee a little higher to help with this? Sure.

Do this hitter have a problem with "contact point"? Would the tee be a useful device to demonstrate contact points? Sure.

And on and on.
My 2 cents worth.

p.s. Ray, good question.
On a side note,
And why I ask so many questions, is to see if who I am talking to really knows his ****. And I mean really.
Maybe most that post don’t wish to get that heavy. Hell, I don’t care. The way I look at it, it’s their loss. Just like those kids that have the drive and those that don’t.
Not really sure why some perceptions about people exist. Heck, I don't even know you. Don't know what's happened in the past, probably don't care too much either.
About hitting, I know some, not much. Maybe more than some, certainly less than others,
Is someone knowing their **** a criteria before one can enter a dialog with you? Frankly, I enjoy dialog. I learn.
Certainly don't need anyone to give me a quiz first. If that's your way, who am I to question it?
Just put it out there. Heck you've got good observations.

And you're still wrong about G. Brett's tee swing-----:) :) :) -joking.
c'mon let's just have some fun, learn, etc.

Anyone else??? Tee work???

[LClifton]

I don't mean to say looking at the tee WILL screw something up. I mean to say, be careful. One check is to look out front.
Exactly. Watch what the heck they're doing. Bad habits can creep in quick.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, what does the stick do for you the tee doesn't?

Here's a couple reasons...


You can easily adjust pitches - hi/low - out/in - back/front.
More efficient as you do not have to load and unload the tee nor stop and pick it up when the tee gets knocked over.
Players are more focussed on their swings versus where the ball is going.
You can move a stick to better simulate a pitch by moving the ball to the batter, thus having the hitter look down range.
We do 3-hit repetition drills for timing (you can quickly reload).
No counter rotation (rotating the shoulders and hips back such that the shoulder line points to third versus slightly off second.)
Great for game day warm ups as you do not need a fence.

[dannyboy]

ok

later tonight, if I don't have to go to a wedding.
steelers on now.


loren,
questions just for those that make absolute statements about uncertain theory, instead of declaring as opinion.

[LClifton]

And Ray,
The Steelers are in my backyard,,,,almost literally.
AND, our company had tickets to the game---- in the new Cardinals stadium.

Is there a score?

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, what does the stick do for you the tee doesn't?Mark - do you use a stick?

[Mark H]

I have used a stick in the past...till we broke it. :)
You make some good points. I would discuss a few of them though. #3-As to focusing on where the ball, and how fast the ball, is going, I LIKE the immediate objective feedback. Whenever possible, I use the tee on an open field where they can see the results of their changes. #5 worries me a little. Can you explain further? #6 I can see why counter rotation could be less likely with the stick but I'm not sure why it would be necessarily no problem.

[Jake Patterson]

#5 worries me a little. Can you explain further?

This is a lot easier to show than describe, but here goes...
This is something used in golf to teach timing. Golf instructors will tee up three balls six inches from each other in a line perpendicular to the golfer on a driving range. The golfer will swing and hit ball #1 - take the club back, slight step forward and hit ball #2 - take the club back slight step forward hit ball #3. The timing of swing #3 is what they optimally want. Used primarily for someone who rushes a backswing or foreswing or whose timing is just off.

The same exercise can be done with a hitter, especially one whose timing during their load, seperation, stride and swing are off. Because we can reload the stick quickly we can emulate the same drill.

I use it primarily with young kids

Take a club and try it.
Make sense?

[Mark H]

As long as they can work in their rythm and not truncate the momentum development etc.

[Jake Patterson]

As long as they can work in their rythm and not truncate the momentum development etc.
Agree . ..

[dannyboy]

Imagining a pitcher’s motion and pitch:

What is motion? It is the change in position with time. The rate that an object’s position changes (direction) with time is called the speed. If we know both the direction and speed, then the combined direction and speed are called the velocity of an object.

In the physical world motion needs to be measured relative to a frame of reference.
Motion perception is another matter (I could direct anyone toward a variety of motion illusions to demonstrate, but….). And it (motion perception) also needs to be measured relative to a frame of reference.
Frame of reference remains a factor of motion that has to be solved by our visual system, not our imagination.

Those that imagine a pitcher’s motion, or a pitched ball, are not seeing motion, not even perceiving it. They are not seeing the ball (defined by a difference in luminance from its surroundings), nor are they detecting motion by detecting changes in luminance from one point on the retina and correlating it with a delayed change in luminance at a neighboring point on the retina.

What they are doing is imagining it. And on top of it all, trying to co-ordinate a physical response to an imagined motion. This is unduly complicating the purpose of a tee. And, in the case of a student that has relatively little actual experience (actual exposure to live pitching), an incorrectly imagined motion and imagined motion perception (pitcher and pitch) can , in my opinion actually do more harm than good.



Limiting vision of the ball to peripheral vision:

Peripheral vision is a part of vision that occurs outside the very center of gaze.
“Peripheral vision is weaker in humans, compared with other animals, especially at distinguishing color and shape. This is because the density of receptor cells on the retina is greatest at the center and lowest at the edges (see visual system for an explanation of these concepts). In addition, there are two types of receptor cells, rod cells and cone cells; rod cells are unable to distinguish color and are predominant at the periphery, while cone cells are concentrated mostly in the center of the retina (the macula).
Peripheral vision is good at detecting motion (a feature of rod cells), however, and is relatively strong at night or in the dark, when the lack of color cues and lighting makes cone cells far less useful. This makes it useful for avoiding predators, who tend to hunt at night and may attack unexpectedly.”

“Peripheral vision is good at detecting motion.” And this, because of the physical make up of the eye. When you gaze out in front of a ball sitting on a tee, you are handicapping your vision. You are trying to make use of a strong suit of your vision that is not required (you are not actually detecting motion).


So how does all of this relate to tee work? My point is don’t clutter with speed and direction.
Just location. Spatial awareness.



Proprioception and Proprioception Extension.

Proprioception:
the ability to sense the position and location and orientation and movement of the body and its parts.
The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself.
“Proprioception (from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own" and perception) is the sense of the position of parts of the body, relative to other neighbouring parts of the body. Unlike the six exteroception human senses of sight, taste, smell, touch, hearing, and balance, that advise us of the outside world, proprioception is a sense that provides feedback solely on the status of the body internally. It is the sense that indicates whether the body is moving with required effort, as well as where the various parts of the body are located in relation to each other.”

That is mainly what I use a tee for.

A huge problem that I became aware of with high-schoolers (regarding baseball hitting) is that they have a very weak sense of where they and their body parts are spatially.
They have an even weaker sense of what I call proprioception extension, the sweet of the bat. The out-of-body inanimate extension of self. I have observed that some hitters (I put them through a timed test of touching differently placed objects with the head of the bat. Accuracy is noted) have a stronger sense and these are unquestionably the better hitters.
Sure, I use the tee to work on their mechanics, but it’s near impossible to dent the armor that’s been put up by 14 to 18 years of motor learning with 50 guys. But if I can get them to create a self awareness, a keen self awareness, then their understanding of what they at least should do mechanically makes it easier for them to accomplish. And I would add that this includes awareness of the sweet and the ball. You must work on all three. You would be very surprised what an increased awareness (again, real awareness) of body, bat, and ball can do for plate discipline and timing.

The tools:
A Tanner Tee (best out there).

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tees.jpg


A plate made out of TPO roofing material (or some other material as long as it is thin)
Duct tape for the artificial grass surface of an indoor facility we practice at, blue painters tape for the gym floor, lime line machine for the field to outline the batter’s box.
Baseballs and wiffle balls.

When I begin with Freshmen, I ask questions like “hold up your fingers showing me the width of the plate?” “what are the dimensions of the plate?” “what are the dimensions of the box?” “how is the box placed in relation to the plate?” “how close is the inside edge of the box from the plate? “what is the closest distance that your toes can be from the inside edge of the plate?” “what is the rule for width of the strike zone?” “what is the rule for height of the strike zone?”
And they know they should know this before the next practice, or they may give me a lap.

Each one goes through tee work with me. I throw down the plate before I line the box and tell them to take their stance. One of the things that I have noticed the most when they take their stance is how close they are to the plate. They usually place their lead foot about even with the mid-way crease of the plate, but most crowd the plate severely. Why? I believe it’s pure bad habit. Little Leaguers swing a bat as short as 27 inches but the plate is still 17 inches wide. They crowd to cover the outside edge and step in the bucket to not get hit. When they move up the bat increases in length (so does their reach), and the plate is still 17 inches wide. But they still crowd. Habit. They now step in the bucket to clear the hips to give themselves a chance at the inside pitch.
Another thing that I notice is how inconsistent they are with their stance. Wide then narrow. A lot of this has to do with how poorly ground is kept at the plate, and the holes that are created from digging in. Two big ruts, and if your big or small, do you want one foot on a hill and one in a rut. They conform, and it sucks. I advise them to do their own groundskeeping when they get to the box.
Anyhow the first thing that I do when I notice them standing too close to the edge of the plate, is tell them to take a stride and I note where the front toe lands. I mark the front toe locations with a piece of tape. I put the tee on the inside corner even with the stride toe (after stride).

Here is an example of a hitter whose toes are 12 inches from the edge of the plate, and where I place the tee:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tooinside.jpg


This simulates a fastball that gets too far in (not contacted far enough in front of the plate). Most of them admit that they can’t get it. Some try and look silly. Some step in the bucket severly to get around (and I show them by having them note where the tape is), but they all learn a valuable lesson.

So what is too close? For an average size hitter, the toes being closer than the plate is wide.

I continue by placing the tee further out toward the pitcher but still inside edge of plate. I continue in increments until they can get the sweet on it without stepping in the bucket. You would be surprised how far in front it must be. And they learn another lesson.

So now at least they try standing further off the plate. I suggest 18 inches. They say “WHAT?”
“how can I cover the outside corner?” I say wait longer. Make the contact point deeper. I take the bat and demonstrate extremes.

Here is an example of extremes, but still able to cover with toes 18 inches off the plate:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/stanceii.jpg


The lines on the bats simulates the top hand forearm. Note the relative grouping of what would be the elbows and still permit extreme coverage. The elbows are still in the slot and close to the body. The first thing someone says when they see this diagram is that the inside pitch is too far in front and the outside is too deep. I say they are extreme hits down the lines and if you don’t believe look at some overhead shots. I also get that my drawn forearm location is not correct.

You judge:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/williams.jpg


http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/robinsonpulli.jpg



The Robinson clip can be explained (the red lines and ball) but I don’t think it’s necessary. If you want I will.

Anyhow I can demonstrate this exactly in person. You’ll have to take my word or ask fungo.

If you want to take the time you could read this thread:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47899

the inside pitch
________________________________________
i cant hit it. i cant seem to get my hands inside the ball. in the event that i do get in on it i cant keep it fair. it always hooks foul. its aggravating because i can hit it a mile but foul. help?



I tried to help this guy.
Here is another diagram like the other, except I moved everything (feet, bats, balls, forearms proportionately the same) to simulate the toes 12 inches (that’s the distance he measured) off the plate vs. 18 inches. I did leave one ball (the inside pitch) where it was originally and showed the purple bat on it and what happens.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/stanceiii.jpg




Hey guys, I’m burnt. There is more, but I’m too tired and maybe you think it’s a waste. If it is, be courteous and let me know.

[Mark H]

[U]This is unduly complicating the purpose of a tee. .

I agree. I'll chew through this when it's not so late but don't read too much into my statement about looking at the imaginary pitcher. If the hitter is looking at the tee the whole time, speaking of youngsters, they are likely to counter rotate bringing the upper torso around with the head or some other postural oddity. Before they swing, have them get their position/set their posture, with the head looking out where it will be looking during a live AB. With the head in an unnatural position, looking down at the tee as opposed to starting the process with the head turned toward the pitching mound a variable is added in. Watch for the problem.

[dougmac]

question for everyone,

what do you use the tee for?
what do you work on?


Hi Ray, That is a good question and it deserves an answer. With my son, we started using a tee when he was about 5 years old and he used it for many things. From about the age of 5 through 14, he would play make believe ballgames in the back yard with himself, his tee and a whiffle ball. He had a lot of fun doing this and ended up taking thousands of swings.

As a teaching tool, I used to have him play a game in the cage where he would hit 10 balls oppo, 10 balls up the middle and then pull 10 balls. When doing this, the tee would be moved back and away a little when going oppo and then up a little and middle for middle and up a little more and a little in for pull. We kept score and to get a perfect score, you had to hit 10 line drives to the oppo field, 10 line drives to center and hit all 10 pull balls high and deep.

Doing this drill allows the player to develop a feel as to how to succeed in the drill and allows him to find ways to improve his swing on his own. This is not to say that you don't help them with their swing,but what it does is allow the player to feel what is happening which IMO has more value than just constant teaching of the swing.......it allows the player to teach himself a little and discover things on his own.

[dougmac]

Blank slate. Starting over. Wonder how Ted's tee swings compare to his game swings. ;)

I don't mean to say looking at the tee WILL screw something up. I mean to say, be careful. One check is to look out front.

I use the tee for checking and working on the stroke in any number of ways. Jake, what does the stick do for you the tee doesn't?

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/tedw2.mov

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/Tedhr.mpg

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/gbtee.mpg

Here are 3 clips.....the first is Ted Williams in BP, the second is Ted Williams in a game and the third is a view of George Brett pulling a ball off the tee.

[wilson68]

Why the high tee? In the picture of Williams, the tee seems very high and, recently, I saw a TV report on the Blue Jays hitting coach and in it Glaus was hitting off a high tee.

[dannyboy]

wilson68,

dunno for sure why them, but the strike zone was armpits till '88 (rule, even if they didn't call it).

can tell you that I often place the tee out of the strike zone to guage a hitters coverage.

[dannyboy]

Doug,

...what it does is allow the player to feel what is happening which IMO has more value than just constant teaching of the swing.......it allows the player to teach himself a little and discover things on his own.


Doug, you are my friend, and we have disagreed before, and I must say that I could absolutely not agree with you more.

Let me have a big Amen! AMEN!!!

[dannyboy]

SteveE,

notice you online now.

check this out (i meant to email this to you. saw it on DiscoveryChannel. thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.films.com/id/11902/The_Architecture_and_Design_of_Man_and_Woman.htm

[wilson68]

It wasn't just an observation. In the TV segment they specifically mentioned using a 'high tee'. I was wondering if there was some major league secret that we hadn't been told about.

[Mark H]

I find a high tee useful for letting a hitter who disconnects by pushing the hands down feel the problem. Hard to hit a line drive on a high tee if you push the hands down early in the swing.

[dougmac]

It wasn't just an observation. In the TV segment they specifically mentioned using a 'high tee'. I was wondering if there was some major league secret that we hadn't been told about.


wilson68, The clips show Williams hitting off tees that are high, low and medium. There is no secret, just hard work learning to hit balls in all areas of the strike zone. When Williams did this demonstration, the letter high pitch was a strike, so practice of hitting it would make sense. The guys today practicing hitting a pitch that high makes no sense as it is not a strike.

[LClifton]

So how does all of this relate to tee work? My point is don’t clutter with speed and direction.
Just location. Spatial awareness.
There is no secret, just hard work learning to hit balls in all areas of the strike zone.
:) :) :)

So, to talk about specific use of the tee, I would contend that a young, learning hitter should probably learn to hit a stationary ball (well) before giving too many reps with a moving ball.

Does this hitter have a problem with "contact point"? Would the tee be a useful device to demonstrate contact points? Sure.
Dmac, using the tee, on a field, and asking the hitter to hit (based on location) over SS head, over 2nd and up the middle----DOES indeed aid them in figuring stuff out. Read this from you sometime back and have implemented.

Ray, using the tee. Again, good question. I hope this helps others. It has reinforced its usefulness to me.

Thought:
When a ball is set low kids will top or upper cut the ball. Setting it high the same thing can result. Setting it inside and outside, less than desirable results can occur.
There are kids that can swing, there are those that can hit. And then there are those that can do both. They can (with a tee) learn to "square it up" given various locations.
Having them on a tee assists them in learning to do both. (Swing and hit,,,,,more effectively) IMO.
I read somewhere that A-Rod hits an insane number of balls off a tee??? Anyone else read this, or know anything about it?

[Mark H]

The guys today practicing hitting a pitch that high makes no sense as it is not a strike.

In general, I agree. Using it briefly to prove a point to a skeptical kid and give them a feel for what they are doing wrong can be very helpful. Probably not for the players you are watching, but for helping an average youth hitter, it can be useful.

[dannyboy]

There are kids that can swing, there are those that can hit. And then there are those that can do both.



Loren,

I’ll take those that can hit and those that can do both. Heh, heh.

Again creating an awareness:

Last post was dealing with inside pitch. Now to work on outside.
(will shorten it up and lose the pictures. must’ve been boring?)


Another demonstration with the tee:
Have the batter stand with toes 18 inches off the inside edge of the plate . Have them stride to launch. Place the tee on the outside corner in 12 inch increments under 3 different conditions (in front of the stride foot toes, even with the toes, and 12 behind the toes) telling them to try and PULL that outside pitch under each condition. (Mark their toes so they can’t cheat.) Then have them try and hit the same positions of the tee ball to the opposite field. This will let them MENTALLY KNOW and PHYSICALLY FEEL what is right for their bodies to do and which position is optimum. What feels most natural for the body. A self proof, if you will.


Should I continue after this? There’s more. Are you reading? Am I boring you guys?
This started out as an anti-riddle campaign.

[Mark H]

Loren,

Last post was dealing with inside pitch. Now to work on outside.
(will shorten it up and lose the pictures. must’ve been boring?)


.

No. Pictures are good. I want to go over it but I've been short on time.

[Mark H]

[U] I have observed that some hitters (I put them through a timed test of touching differently placed objects with the head of the bat. Accuracy is noted) have a stronger sense and these are unquestionably the better hitters. .


Much interesting in the whole post. I would be interested in hearing more about this test.

I still think a hitter with that much difference between where he contacts an inside pitch vs an outside pitch is going to be unnecessarily vulnerable to a pitcher who both locates and changes speeds. But maybe much of that is for the purposes of the teaching protocol.

I understand your problem with my suggestion about imagining a pitcher and I hope you understand I did not mean to suggest taking it that far but rather want a tee hitter to keep his head turned to a normal hitting stance position before he swings in order to help keep bad posture from creeping in.

[Baseball gLove]

Baseball Love,

can you expand on "...to teach and improve hitting technique..."?

what specifically do you do?

I observe their form and correct as needed. For the 6 year old I have to keep it simple. He does a good job of staying back and firing his hips with his back foot, but drags the bat. To get him to keep his top hand (TH) elbow behind his hands, I tell him that he need to punch the ball with the TH knuckles up. He usually gets a bucket of Tee work and a bucket of soft toss.

For my older son who is in high school we use Tee work and soft toss as a part of BP. After recently hitting a homerun, he has had a sudden case of homerun-itis and has been trying to hit homeruns. As a result he was trying to muscle the ball by over-coiling, which caused him to drop his rear shoulder too much. which in turn caused him to pull his head and everything else off the ball. He was leaning back so much that he was arching his back and he was not rotating naturally. He was also hitting around the ball instead of through the ball. We went back to basics cut down his stride and shortened his coil and his swing. So today he drove a head-high liner shot over 300 feet.

[Mark H]

I observe their form and correct as needed. For the 6 year old I have to keep it simple. He does a good job of staying back and firing his hips with his back foot, but drags the bat. To get him to keep his top hand (TH) elbow behind his hands, I tell him that he need to punch the ball with the TH knuckles up. .

Can you further explain these points? Specifically "staying back", "firing his hips with his back foot", and "punch the ball with the TH knuckles up". I'm not sure what your meaning is on these.

[chesspirate]

clips please

[LClifton]

Loren,

I’ll take those that can hit and those that can do both. Heh, heh.

Again creating an awareness:

Last post was dealing with inside pitch. Now to work on outside.
(will shorten it up and lose the pictures. must’ve been boring?)
I'm not bored, just never honestly thought of, read about, all this.

Keep going.

Lclifton

[dannyboy]

Mark,

…I would be interested in hearing more about this test.

Actually it started out with us clownin’ around and turned into a game.
3 tees. One in line with the inside paint 12 inches in front of the front edge of the plate, set belt high. Second one dead red front edge of plate, set one ball lower than front tee. Third one at rear apex of plate, one ball lower than second tee. First tee has tennis ball lightly covered with either blue or white chalk line dust. Second tee has golf wiffle ball. Third tee has baseball. Hitter stands with left foot even with crease of the plate, toes 18 inches or so off. He holds the bat with the sweet right behind the baseball and closes his eyes. I say “go” and he opens his eyes and must touch the brim of his hat with the sweet, then knock the baseball backwards without touching the tee, then knock the golf ball off forward, not touching the tee, then load stride and pull the tennis ball. Check the bat for the dust location.


I still think a hitter with that much difference between where he contacts an inside pitch vs an outside pitch is going to be unnecessarily vulnerable to a pitcher who both locates and changes speeds. But maybe much of that is for the purposes of the teaching protocol.

Mark, any pitcher who both locates and changes speeds will make any hitter vulnerable. I did'nt say that those are recommended contact points. You're right about teaching protocal. They are “extremes”. The hitting zone is anywhere between. Hitters should be so lucky to plan and time extreme inside or outside pitches down the line. There are limits to high and low too, but didn’t get to that yet. I want them to realize that its more natural to pull inside and oppo outside. And at the same time I want them to realize their extremes, their limitations.

Notice at what point in the swing Rose contacts an outside pitch (the left and right pics are extremes):

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/roseoppomidpull.jpg



I understand your problem with my suggestion about imagining a pitcher and I hope you understand I did not mean to suggest taking it that far but rather want a tee hitter to keep his head turned to a normal hitting stance position before he swings in order to help keep bad posture from creeping in.

I understand what your saying, but hitters turning too far away from the pitcher has never been a real big problem for us. Knock on wood. I dunno. I like to see them load to really whack. I know too much is not a good thing. We work on keeping both eyes turned to the pitch (no nose interference with the rear eye) in BP. When I see them turning away too much in tee, I tell them to “pick it clean” and “don’t hit the tee”. This tempers the swing. The bat diameter is 2 5/8 inches, the ball is 2 7/8 inches.
Look at Williams in his 3rd and 4th swing on the tee. Brett on the pull hit.

[Mark H]

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=16&n=13&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[Baseball gLove]

Can you further explain these points? Specifically "staying back", "firing his hips with his back foot", and "punch the ball with the TH knuckles up". I'm not sure what your meaning is on these.

Staying back: does not lunge forward. I taught him last year to stay back and wait for the ball longer.

Firing hips: rather than sliding forward, he turns his back foot toward the pitcher and to allow the hip to turn. See example this is very good, this is what I taught my sons:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=24kndpd1w2.lion_s?p=7&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

This is bad:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=24kndpd1w2.lion_s?p=9&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9


Punch the ball: I prefer that my kids keep their elbow down at load, but the kids like it up. So picture the top hand palm up, I want him to punch toward the ball keeping the palm up to help prevent bat drag. His bat drag actually decreased when he used a heavier bat, a bat I consider way too heavy.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20060816/i/r3710364528.jpg

[chesspirate]

This is bad:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=24kndpd1w2.lion_s?p=9&n=1&m=20 &c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
why is this bad?

[Baseball gLove]

He is sliding the hips forward. Try it.

[chesspirate]

First off, it's a SHE. So lets start with that stunning observation of yours.

Second, there are many people who feel that the load that she is performing is a good one to emulate, so instead of saying "this is bad" "try it" why don't you explain (providing evidence) why this is so bad.

[dougmac]

She slides forward with the hips and has her shoulders much too closed. I think she is a good athlete who is getting away with a way below average move and lousy mechanics. If anyone tried to teach my kids or grandkids the moves she makes, there would be a fist fight real quick.

[chesspirate]

She slides forward with the hips and has her shoulders much too closed.
Okay, could you get a little more specific as to why you don't like the way she moves her 'hips' and why you don't like the shoulders closed?

I'm just trying to get some more dialogue out there than "i do (or don't) like this"

[tom.guerry]

siggy put this clip right after guerrero.

how about full clips of both side by side for comparison ?

[dougmac]

Okay, could you get a little more specific as to why you don't like the way she moves her 'hips' and why you don't like the shoulders closed?

I'm just trying to get some more dialogue out there than "i do (or don't) like this"


I don't care for the slide move or the really closed shoulders. If she was a baseball player, she would be in a a position to get buried inside with fastballs. Since most here have been taught to learn from film of the best major league swings, and I agree with that very much. That being said, there are no quality major leaguers who approach the swing the way this young gal does and there are good reasons for it. The hip slide and extremely closed shoulders do not appear in the big leagues, because it is not a successful way to hit big league pitching........if it was, there would be many big leaguers swinging the way she does, but there are not.

[jojab]

If anyone tried to teach my kids or grandkids the moves she makes, there would be a fist fight real quick.

Anyone want to volunteer to coach Dmac's grandkids? :D

[chesspirate]

Doug, what about...

http://teachersbilliards.com/Ball/2/APujols7.gif

I'm looking for clarification, because i think Pujols move is similar

[jsiggy]

I don't think she is hip sliding - in the usual (negative) sense of the word. That being where the hips move forward during rotation and drain off power & increase time to get around the corner.

Seems to me she is loading the middle by sliding & counter rotating the hips.

Not my preferred way of loading - but I'm interested in why folks think it's bad. Like chesspirate, I think there are similarities to Pujols.

[Baseball gLove]

First off, it's a SHE. So lets start with that stunning observation of yours.

Second, there are many people who feel that the load that she is performing is a good one to emulate, so instead of saying "this is bad" "try it" why don't you explain (providing evidence) why this is so bad.


Your sarcasm is unwelcome. I can't help it if she looks like a he. I don't know who your "many people" are. She is sliding her hips forward as she coils her shoulders back. I actually tried it and found that my front-side was out front, rotation was awkward and lacked power. My 14 year old used to slide his hips in a similar way when he was 11. He had a tendency to hit the ball out in front. It also appeared to be a "bailing" maneuver. Her hips should be staying or loading back not sliding forward. My son is probably lighter than that "girl." My 14 year old practices with a 33-32 wood bat and drives the ball 280 to 300 feet. His 120 pounds has recently hit an opposite field homerun over an 8 foot fence that was 305 feet away with his 32-29 Stealth. He has also hit a line drive that hit the fence in right center at 345 feet.

[Baseball gLove]

Doug, what about...

http://teachersbilliards.com/Ball/2/APujols7.gif

I'm looking for clarification, because i think Pujols move is similar

I don't think so. Pujols hips are turning back slightly. You need to look at the relationship of the position of his hips to his front foot. Her back-side is almost in front of her front leg.

[Baseball gLove]

Lastly, with her back leg straightening out, I see difficulties turning the knee to fire the hips as effectively. It is likely that she gets caught out in front and also has problems with the harder throwing pitchers. If she instead kept her hips back, to turn her back knee forward, to roll up on to her back toes, like Pujols does in your example, she would see the ball better, deeper, and kill it more effectively.

[chesspirate]

Your sarcasm is unwelcome. I can't help it if she looks like a he well, you coming on here and ripping Michelle for her loading pattern with only vague reasons is unwlecome.

Her hips should be staying or loading back not sliding forward why? and what do you think she is trying to achieve with this move? she isn't doing it for no reason.

I don't think so. Pujols hips are turning back slightly the clips are taken from different angles, so that will play in to your thoughts a little i'm sure, but after Pujols kinda rocks back, his lower body acts in a very similar fashion, with the butt moving forward kinda funny-like. Yes, his base is wider and he does stride a bit so they are not identical, but similar.

If she instead kept her hips back, to turn her back knee forward, to roll up on to her back toes, like Pujols does once again i think the camera angle is getting the better of you here. Pujols back leg does straighten out as he moves forward, and he does move his hips forward as well.

So, either you are honestly distracted by the different camera angles, or you have an agenda for some reason against ms. smith. (and the reason your son is smaller is because the clip is from he playing in college. Many bigger girls playing college fastpitch).

In all fairness, does anyone have any other clips of Michelle from more directly across the batters box so we could compare them more fairly,

[jojab]

In all fairness, does anyone have any other clips of Michelle from more directly across the batters box so we could compare them more fairly,

Not exactly what you are looking for but there are three more here:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic

[Baseball gLove]

well, you coming on here and ripping Michelle for her loading pattern with only vague reasons is unwlecome.



why? and what do you think she is trying to achieve with this move? she isn't doing it for no reason.

the clips are taken from different angles, so that will play in to your thoughts a little i'm sure, but after Pujols kinda rocks back, his lower body acts in a very similar fashion, with the butt moving forward kinda funny-like. Yes, his base is wider and he does stride a bit so they are not identical, but similar.

once again i think the camera angle is getting the better of you here. Pujols back leg does straighten out as he moves forward, and he does move his hips forward as well.

So, either you are honestly distracted by the different camera angles, or you have an agenda for some reason against ms. smith. (and the reason your son is smaller is because the clip is from he playing in college. Many bigger girls playing college fastpitch).

In all fairness, does anyone have any other clips of Michelle from more directly across the batters box so we could compare them more fairly,

The truth often hurts. Sometimes, my son doesn't like to hear the truth either. My son's old batting coach, who did play in the MLB, said to my son: "when you stop learning in baseball, is when you decline as a player, and it's time to quit." I have to remind him of that from time to time.

In the latest clips, her hip-slide is still there in the full swing in one, but she turns well. In the front and rear views I can't see the hip slide. Was her hip-slide the result of getting fooled on a pitched change-up and she was able to muscle through it? I don't know. But in the clip I originally used, it was there.

[dougmac]

Doug, what about...

http://teachersbilliards.com/Ball/2/APujols7.gif

I'm looking for clarification, because i think Pujols move is similar


The only thing that Smith and Pujols have in common is that they are both trying to hit a ball with a bat.

[chesspirate]

okay, just to clarify then, what is your definition of hip slide? The way I (and others in this thread) are used to it being described, it is when the hips 'slide' forward during rotation, not before.

similar move seen here, much less obvious, but there none-the-less
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic;jsessionid=t5upg20hx1.buffalo_s?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[Baseball gLove]

okay, just to clarify then, what is your definition of hip slide? The way I (and others in this thread) are used to it being described, it is when the hips 'slide' forward during rotation, not before.

similar move seen here, much less obvious, but there none-the-less
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic;jsessionid=t5upg20hx1.buffalo_s?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

That doesn't look like a hip-slide, it looks like a stride. Notice the back leg is loaded until she uses it to fire her hips.

[dougmac]

okay, just to clarify then, what is your definition of hip slide? The way I (and others in this thread) are used to it being described, it is when the hips 'slide' forward during rotation, not before.

similar move seen here, much less obvious, but there none-the-less
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic;jsessionid=t5upg20hx1.buffalo_s?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/msmith.gif


This clip is a definition of hip slide and over rotating the shoulders. There are no quality big leaguers who do what she does. Comparing her swing to Pujols' swing is enough to make a grown man cry.

[chesspirate]

That doesn't look like a hip-slide, it looks like a stride. Notice the back leg is loaded until she uses it to fire her hips.
again, i don't think you're using the term "hip slide" like i'm using it.

Besides, you are missing 'the move' that is obviously taking place in all three swings mentioned here, striding or not striding doesn't change what move is going on, i can perform 'the move' with or without a stride myself.

Doug: the M. Smith clip is not the definition of hip slide because all the movement you're calling 'hip slide' is taking place before rotation.

and is the shoulder rotation that severe?

[dougmac]

CP, It may not be your definition of hip slide, but it is hip slide to me, and a large hip slide at that. Her shoulders are pointed at the first baseman......is that severe enough? If I am pitching and she has a wood bat, she will break enough bats to keep LS in business for a year.

[chesspirate]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/wright3.gif

I think David here is showing the same movement that the others are achieving.

I think all three are making the same move but to different degrees.

[Baseball gLove]

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/wright3.gif

I think David here is showing the same movement that the others are achieving.

I think all three are making the same move but to different degrees.


Here the view angle is the problem; the batter's box serves as a reference. Mr. Wright stays behind his front leg with his hip load. You have to look at the back leg too. BTW, my son is a "No Stride." ala Pujols.

[Mark H]

It is likely that she gets caught out in front and also has problems with the harder throwing pitchers. .

Actual results were she tore up the toughest conference in the country as a freshman for both power and average. If she could run she would have had a shot at the national team.

[dougmac]

Mark, How about the results of her Soph year? .263, 7th on her own team in hitting. 4 HR's in 171 AB's. An educated guess would be that the opposing pitchers found a weakness and exploited it.

[wilson68]

Mark, How about the results of her Soph year? .263, 7th on her own team in hitting. 4 HR's in 171 AB's. An educated guess would be that the opposing pitchers found a weakness and exploited it.

Ahh, you really do care. :D

[fungo22]

I don't think she is hip sliding - in the usual (negative) sense of the word. That being where the hips move forward during rotation and drain off power & increase time to get around the corner.

Seems to me she is loading the middle by sliding & counter rotating the hips.

Not my preferred way of loading - but I'm interested in why folks think it's bad. Like chesspirate, I think there are similarities to Pujols. I agree that there are similarities. Big difference seems to me that although she coils, she is not really generating any forward momentum so that she drops her heel into foot plant. Her load is pretty much tilt & stretch/coil and then unload. Also notice that she pulls her back leg straight with her coil, which pretty much halts her forward movment. She seems to have more coil/counterrotation of the hips than Pujols. Pujols has plenty of tilt & stretch/coil but is "carrying' the middle forward more like a stride. As is the Mets 3B guy whose name I have forgotten.

I agree that Smith has too much counterrotation of the shoulders to be optimally efficient but both dingers I saw from her freshman year were middle=in. I am really curious why she bombed this year.

PS I'm not sure which MSmith clip you're looking at (can't see 'em from this location). Both of the swings I have are nearly identical.

And I definitely agree with Siggy (and Pirate?) that there is no hip slide.

[Mark H]

Mark, How about the results of her Soph year? .263, 7th on her own team in hitting. 4 HR's in 171 AB's. An educated guess would be that the opposing pitchers found a weakness and exploited it.

Good to see a fellow fp fan. ;) Could be. Could be sophomore slump. Could be being away from her original instructor. Could be stupid coaching though I'm told she's been left alone mechanically. Could be that counter rotation neither you nor I are thrilled about. But, she did what she did her freshman year so she must have been doing something right. I saw a clip of her the summer before college and, with her gold coach and Scott as my witness, I said this kid is going to hit. And she did. I'll email you the original clip and see what you think.

[tom.guerry]

most similar comparison clips I can find here are the open view

SMITH: 4/30/05 clip from Siggy

Pujols: pujols1clr.gif from here somewhere.

Very different swings/patterns.

For "frame counters" :

from when back elbow starts down to contact:

Pujols 8 frames

Smith 6 frames

Pujols drops the elbow (slots) in a way that is optimizing ongoing coil letting him wait longer then launch more quickly and accurately

from when front foot is down flat to contact:

Pujols <4 frames

Smith 6 frames, first one of these 6 is the last bit of hip slide.

Very different patterns.

Pattern is way more important than frame counting in my opinion in assessing quickness.

[Mark H]

So quickness is more about form than elapsed time? Is that what you are saying?

[swingbuster]

Is Mr Wright stride today ; swing tomorrow by Ohfers definition. Looks like he gets his foot down early as he coils his hips,shifts and uncoils. There appears to be some separation between load/ stride and rotate. hummmm?

I think Ted would say he is still coiling his hips as he is shifting

[chesspirate]

Looks like he gets his foot down early as he coils his hips,shifts and uncoils.

I think this is oversimplification.

Yes, his front toe does touch the ground early, but i would argue that he is essentially loading during his 'stride' with the toe on the ground. The real action starts to take place as he goes into footplant.

[tom.guerry]

MARK H -

Quickness is about optimal blend of short path of bathead launch to contact and highest possible batspeed over this path to minimize timing error.

In addition,the high level mlb swing launches/starts accelerating further back - has so-called "early" batspeed as opposed to the late batspeed of the PCR swing where absence of focus on upper body/arm load forces "late batspeed" and spinhook because bathead acceleration can't be started as far back as desired and coil can't be as efficient without keeping the hands back better (too much "middle emphasis" and too passive an approach to upper body arm action in PCR).

Notice how Pujols keeps the hands back as the back elbow slots, continues to coil, then has optimal quickness from launch to contact (the best are usually 3.5 or so frames from launch to contact.

Rather than frame counting, the nonhigh level hitters can be seen to have a different pattern that prevents optimal coil and early batspeed.

You can have a low frame count with PCR spinhook by shortening path too much so that too much batspeed is given up and swing starts spatially too late. Swing appears quick, but can't wait on ball as long and timing error is high.

[dougmac]

Tom, I agree with the last paragraph of this post too. Very similar to the last post of yours that I commented on.

[Mark H]

MARK H -

Quickness is about optimal blend of short path of bathead launch to contact and highest possible batspeed over this path to minimize timing error.

.

No, quickness is about quickness. Great hitting is about quickness with sufficient batspeed at contact to hit the ball over the fence, or at least to it in the gap.

[dougmac]

No, quickness is about quickness. Great hitting is about quickness with sufficient batspeed at contact to hit the ball over the fence, or at least to it in the gap.

Mark, Great hitting is about more than just quickness. Great hitting is about quickness,bat speed, power, timing, knowing the strike zone, knowing the pitchers, strength and make up. Last, but not least it is the ability to guide the sweetspot on the bat to the baseball.

[tom.guerry]

I would disagree. Quickness is to minimize timing error, not just to be quick.

That is different from shortening the path as much as possible while retaining enough batspeed to hit the ball out.

Highest source of timing error is related to body's ability to predict duration of swing.Body does better job of this the shorter the path AND the quicker the path is traversed. The body does it's best job of predicting duration that needs to be executed when a given path is traversed as fast as possible. That means a unique/optimized blend of path length and acceleration of bathead. It is not just as short as you can be with adequate dinger speed.

In addition, the place where acceleration happens is important because when the swing can be started spatially "early"/behind the hitter, there is more time to recognize pitch location and better ability to adjust matching swing plane. Can wait on ball and make contact deeper without loss of power.

It's all interrelated - quickness,spatial accuracy,where and when launch occurs- in the high level swing, but low timing error is most important. Good timing means most importantly hitting ball when batspeed of the given swing is at maximum. As Williams noted this spatially goes with contact in a window 30 degrees before to 15 degrees after perpendicular to ballpath. See where "joy spot" is in SCIENCE OF HITTING.

[dannyboy]

tom,

simply the best that I have read of you.

dmac,

kudos to you for recognizing this, acknowledging it first, and putting it in baseball terms.

mark,

i would ask you please, to put your observation/perception of tom's history aside for the moment, and truly engage and pursue this recent line of thought.

[Mark H]

Mark, Great hitting is about more than just quickness. Great hitting is about quickness,bat speed, power, timing, knowing the strike zone, knowing the pitchers, strength and make up. Last, but not least it is the ability to guide the sweetspot on the bat to the baseball.

Agreed, but the statement covered the quickness vs batspeed vs shortest path vs universal sequence nonsense from Tom. I wouldn't argue with your list except to say power might be covered by other points in your list.

[Mark H]

I would disagree. Quickness is to minimize timing error, not just to be quick..

Who said being quick was just to be quick? The longer you can watch ball flight before you have to start (Dmac's experience is four frames from start to contact is what you need to hit pro pitching), the better. The quick swing allows this and then allows you to get to the ball quickly once you decide where it's going to be and when.

That is different from shortening the path as much as possible while retaining enough batspeed to hit the ball out.

.

Short in terms of distance, ie shortening the path, is only relevant insofar as it affects quickness, batspeed and the ability to get the sweet spot on the ball consistently.

[dannyboy]

I know you're reading this.

overhead views, available hitting zone, pull vs. oppo.

you should get your facts straight:

1. Reaction to sound is faster than reaction to light. Hitters use vision to react.
2. A 90 mph fastball travels only at a rate of 132 fps on release only. The average velocity is more like 123 ft. per sec.
3. The average speed of a 90 mph fastball is more like 84-85 mph because of deceleration.
4. Considering point of pitch release for average size pitcher and average contact point of batted ball 1ft. in front of the front edge of the plate, the distance traveled is more like 52 ft.
5. Five frames on a VCR equates to approximately.167 seconds.
6. A study found that the mean visual reaction time for professional players sampled was 239 msec. A .15 visual reaction time is not considered average for simple visual reaction tests (the light changes – hit the button). Certainly not in complex (recognition and choice) reaction tests.
7. reaction time is the time from the onset of a stimulus until the organism responds. Onset of stimulus is pitch release, a hitter begins response to this stimulus at toe touch.

[W_Marone]

I'm not sure this really has anything to do with waht your discussing but, when I swing, I usually pull my foot up then down then up again and hit the ball, if you get what I'm saying, kind of like the Michael Young foot tap, it keeps my timing about right all the time to make contact, unless I get crossed up, but you know what I mean.

[Mark H]

I know you're reading this.

overhead views, available hitting zone, pull vs. oppo.

you should get your facts straight:

1. Reaction to sound is faster than reaction to light. Hitters use vision to react.
2. A 90 mph fastball travels only at a rate of 132 fps on release only. The average velocity is more like 123 ft. per sec.
3. The average speed of a 90 mph fastball is more like 84-85 mph because of deceleration.
4. Considering point of pitch release for average size pitcher and average contact point of batted ball 1ft. in front of the front edge of the plate, the distance traveled is more like 52 ft.
5. Five frames on a VCR equates to approximately.167 seconds.
6. A study found that the mean visual reaction time for professional players sampled was 239 msec. A .15 visual reaction time is not considered average for simple visual reaction tests (the light changes – hit the button). Certainly not in complex (recognition and choice) reaction tests.
7. reaction time is the time from the onset of a stimulus until the organism responds. Onset of stimulus is pitch release, a hitter begins response to this stimulus at toe touch.

OK. Then what?

[dannyboy]

sorry Mark my last post wasn't to you. to someone not on this board (at least by proper name).

[Mark H]

Well I was still curious.

[dannyboy]

ok.

tomorrow. i'm drilled tonight.

[dannyboy]

Mark,

remember, you asked for it.

“…different swing patterns…”

A demo (one of the reasons why professional major league hitters can’t hit Jenny Finch):

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/marshallfinch.jpg

Columns A thru F represent a 90 mph fastball thrown by Mike Marshall.
Columns H thru M, a 62 mph fastball thrown by Jenny Finch. (note: I know Finch can throw harder)

B,33 and I,33 represent the time from pitch release to contact (the distance 52 ft. for baseball and 36 ft. for women’s fastpitch) for respective pitchers.
I purposefully picked Finch’s speed (J,3) to make these times equivalent (to demonstrate what follows).

B,18 represents reaction time by accomplished professional baseball hitters.
Please see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9037989&dopt=Abstract

By my calc, a 90 mph fastball has traveled a little over 29 ft. (F,18)
Now notice that a batter facing Finch will have only seen a little over 20 ft. in comparison.
A HUGE disadvantage in visual recognition and processing.

If a woman hitter would wait for the softball to travel the equivalent distance of 29 ft. she would have allowed approx. .345 seconds to elapse (I,26), leaving only around .08 seconds to actually swing.
This is the strain (induced by the rules) under which women fastpitch softballers much perform.

According to my calc, men allowing a pitch to travel 29 ft. before start of reaction, have (a leisurely-heh-heh) .18 seconds or so to swing.
If men had to hit a 90 mph fastball within a distance of 36 ft., and watched it travel 29 ft. before they began their swing, they would only have around .05 seconds in which to complete the action.
In comparison to women, if they started their swing after processing only 20 ft. of the pitch they would have around .26 seconds in which to swing.


Speed-Accuracy Trade-Offs.
There is a relationship between the distance of a movement and the time within which the movement is accomplished.
There is also a relationship between the speed of the movement and the accuracy of the movement.

Success in hitting depends not only on simple reaction time, but your information processing rate - the time it takes from the point of perception to the point of recognition.

And after/during processing we must choose the optimal response.

And finally, execute. The start of physical adjustment to a specific pitch. Anticipatory to Compensatory. Repeatable to Procedural.



And comparing men’s quickness to women’s quickness…..
As tom said, “Very different patterns.”

Some fun:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/video/twib/index.jsp?content=04

OCT. 2, 2004 THE 700TH EPISODE
“The Best of Pitch, Hit &mp; Run with Jennie Finch”

[Mark H]

Mark, How about the results of her Soph year? .263, 7th on her own team in hitting. 4 HR's in 171 AB's. An educated guess would be that the opposing pitchers found a weakness and exploited it.

Maybe she's back. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/robocoach/vpost?id=1320984

Ray,

Thanks. I'll take the time to study on this.