Differences in Rotational and Weight Transfer

[WonderMonkey]

Carryover from the following : http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=46910

Alright then. I think I have missed some massive discussions in the past about some differences in rotational and weight transfer. I know what the major differences are and such but lets get to a few specifics.

I have continued to use the principles of "Squish the bug" when converting my son from weight transfer to rotational. I still see the hips opening up and the rear leg rotating in.

In rotational what do you see as different?

Also if this has already been beat up is there a good thred for me to read?

[Ohfor]

Swinging from the center means your pelvis starts everything.

The pelvis turns the foot. The foot does not turn the pelvis.

Rotation is a center out move. Not a ground up move.

Jim Dixon was one of the first, if not the first, to determine that a large difference between great athletes and the rest was in how they use the pelvis. The body's center.

[WonderMonkey]

Ok. So I'm doing exactly that. Even when we were weight transfer style.

No matter what starts the movement, at some point the rear foot turns. Maybe the "Squish the bug" cue is rooted elsewhere, but that's what happening. With rotational is there a word for it?

[deaconspoint]

Thanks Ohfor,

That simple explaination is a great help to those of us here who are just beginning to grasp all there is to know about rotational hitting. It may seem trivial to a lot of you, but I appreciate that simple answer very much.

Tim

[ssarge]

No matter what starts the movement, at some point the rear foot turns. Maybe the "Squish the bug" cue is rooted elsewhere, but that's what happening. With rotational is there a word for it?

You may be getting this, or not, I'm not sure.

Squishing the bug infers grinding the sole of the foot on the ground.

Video of elite hitters seems to reveal that they never grind the sole of their foot. Instead, it turns over and rolls up onto the toe - the sole isn't involved.

That is a tiny difference, with huge implications.

As Ofer indicates, the action is started in the center, which is causal to everything else. The back foot rolls up on the toes as an EFFECT / reaction to the center rotating.

That CAN'T happen if there is still weight on the back foot. Well, maybe it could for a ballet dancer. But not for your average kid hitter.

So, the center drives the swing as forward momentum is created. That momentum is transferred to rotation around the front hip. As the hips continue to rotate, the back foot rolls up - because it can, and because the hitter doesn't want to put even the slightest "brake" on the body's rotation.

The rear foot does not drive or initiate the rotation. The center of the body does. It merely reacts.

Best regards,

Scott

[deaconspoint]

Guys, this has been a great help. I am looking at videos of Aidan's swing. I think he's got the middle first happening as I can see his back foot coming up as he turns and not turning in before the start of the rotation like before. He's hitting well and having a blast!!

Now I just need to hide that heavy bat he loves so much.

Thanks,

Tim

[Ifubuildit]

This thread is a carry over from the Hitting CUE thread. Take a look at my response over there to wondermonkey. Your response and mine were pretty close.

Wonder. Roll the toe would be the better CUE your looking for instead of Squish the bug.

Good post guys.


Elliott.

[WonderMonkey]

You may be getting this, or not, I'm not sure.

Squishing the bug infers grinding the sole of the foot on the ground.

Video of elite hitters seems to reveal that they never grind the sole of their foot. Instead, it turns over and rolls up onto the toe - the sole isn't involved.

That is a tiny difference, with huge implications.

As Ofer indicates, the action is started in the center, which is causal to everything else. The back foot rolls up on the toes as an EFFECT / reaction to the center rotating.

That CAN'T happen if there is still weight on the back foot. Well, maybe it could for a ballet dancer. But not for your average kid hitter.

So, the center drives the swing as forward momentum is created. That momentum is transferred to rotation around the front hip. As the hips continue to rotate, the back foot rolls up - because it can, and because the hitter doesn't want to put even the slightest "brake" on the body's rotation.

The rear foot does not drive or initiate the rotation. The center of the body does. It merely reacts.

Best regards,

Scott


It appears then, that I wasn't doing "Squish the bug" correctly then. I used to it merely mean what you said above, mostly.

Thanks for taking the time to be sure.

[ssarge]

Now I just need to hide that heavy bat he loves so much.

Suspect you'll find bat weight will be way less of an issue than in the past, as he is now creating force - and momentum - w/ his body, rather than his hands and arms.

In fact, if it hasn't happened already, it will. You're going to be fighting the problem of being early, not of being late.

Pick your poison, I guess. Still a tough problem. But the prognosis for future health is much better.

Best,

Scott

[DunninLA]

re: good rotation vs. squishing the bug -- I don't think the rotation starts with the *only* the hips, but just as importantly with the inside thigh muscle of the back leg pulling in, and the back thigh muscle of the front leg pushing forward, all at the same time.

The rear knee inward/downward rotation really depends on that inner back thigh muscle(s) pulling strongly. I don't know if it is the gracilus, sartorius or adductor longus, or all three. (here is a link to see those muscles http://www.gwc.maricopa.edu/class/bio201/muscle/leg1.htm ) In the absence of focusing on that inward pulling of the back leg inner thigh muscles, the natural tendency for a beginner is to lauch the hip roation by pushing off the back foot and contracting the gluteus medius muscle. Here is a link of the gluteus muscles : http://www.gwc.maricopa.edu/class/bio201/muscle/musc14.htm

[WonderMonkey]

re: good ratation, I don't think the rotation starts with the *only* the hips, but just as importantly with the inside thigh muscle of the back leg pulling in, and the back thigh muscle of the front leg pushing forward, all at the same time.

The rear knee inward/downward rotation really depends on that inner back thigh muscle(s) pulling strongly. I don't know if it is the gracilus, sartorius or adductor longus, or all three, but in the absence of focusing on that inward pulling of the back thing, the natural tendency is to lauch the hip roation by pushing off the back foot. Here is a link to isolate and see which muscles I refer to: http://www.gwc.maricopa.edu/class/bio201/muscle/leg1.htm

I think that by pushing off the back foot you get more weight transfer.

When moving my son from slight weight transfer to rotational in the off-season the biggest urge for him to overcome was starting it all with the back foot.

Having said all that, he didn't take much more then about a 6 inch step when he did do weight transfer. It worked very well for him and if he would have stayed with his weight transfer he would have continued to do very well. However, I feel that moving more to rotational is superior.

[deaconspoint]

The rear knee inward/downward rotation really depends on that inner back thigh muscle(s) pulling strongly. I don't know if it is the gracilus, sartorius or adductor longus, or all three, but in the absence of focusing on that inward pulling of the back thing, the natural tendency is to lauch the hip roation by pushing off the back foot.

What?

Sorry, I'm not there yet. This fun stuff though. Here's a clip of the "A-man" taking a couple of cuts in the yard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC_mB0W3s3w

Check out the grin at the end. Swung a little early and pulled the second one into my truck.

I know he is all over the place after the swing and probably a lot of bat drag and such, but how does the rotation look? The heavy bat is probably causing a lot of these struggles. We normally hit with a smaller/lighter bat, but he loves this one so I let him now and then. He's 7. We're just having fun. All he wants to do is hit though. We went to the park the other day real early in the morning and took some swings. He asked me to buy him an alarm clock that evening so he could wake me up and do it again whenever he wants to. He said if he has trouble getting up I need to tell him we're going bird hunting so he'll jump up. I guess he still loves something more than baseball.

Tim

[WonderMonkey]

What?

Sorry, I'm not there yet. This fun stuff though. Here's a clip of the "A-man" taking a couple of cuts in the yard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC_mB0W3s3w

Check out the grin at the end. Swung a little early and pulled the second one into my truck.

I know he is all over the place after the swing and probably a lot of bat drag and such, but how does the rotation look? The heavy bat is probably causing a lot of these struggles. We normally hit with a smaller/lighter bat, but he loves this one so I let him now and then. He's 7. We're just having fun. All he wants to do is hit though. We went to the park the other day real early in the morning and took some swings. He asked me to buy him an alarm clock that evening so he could wake me up and do it again whenever he wants to. He said if he has trouble getting up I need to tell him we're going bird hunting so he'll jump up. I guess he still loves something more than baseball.

Tim

It's awesome he enjoys it that much.

[hiddengem]

Guys, this has been a great help. I am looking at videos of Aidan's swing. I think he's got the middle first happening as I can see his back foot coming up as he turns and not turning in before the start of the rotation like before. He's hitting well and having a blast!!

Now I just need to hide that heavy bat he loves so much.

Thanks,

Tim


Round Rock Express fan?

[Ohfor]

There is no question in my mind. Aiden swings from his center.

[deaconspoint]

Round Rock Express fan?

Absolutely. He's a fan period. Loves watching the archived plays on the MLB website. Not bad stuff for him to watching I guess. I can sure think of worse things he could be doing on a computer. He picks a team and just bounces around until he finds his own little "web gems". Calls me at work when he finds a really good one so we can look at it together.

[deaconspoint]

There is no question in my mind. Aiden swings from his center

Thanks for the look Ohfor. It's good to know that I may at least not be leading him astray at this point.

Tim

[chesspirate]

he didn't take much more then about a 6 inch step when he did do weight transfer. It worked very well for him and if he would have stayed with his weight transfer he would have continued to do very well. However, I feel that moving more to rotational is superior.

So in your mind, rotational hitting doesn't require any transfer of weight???

[WonderMonkey]

So in your mind, rotational hitting doesn't require any transfer of weight???

Gotta go. Be back in a minute.

[tom.guerry]

the pelvis isn't "starting everything".

It may start the load motion, but this is not an absolute.

It may start the unload motion, but this needs to be preceded by ongoing forward weight shift/positive move.

The swing is an overlapping load/unload motion. Don't forget that the load motion is continuing in the upper body and arms as the weight is shifting and the hips begin turning open (which you might call the start of the unload motion, some call the start even later when hips uncok and front leg starts blocking).

Yeager has the best universal description of weight shift as the sequence:
back leg load
back leg push
front leg block
front leg push.

Slaught emphasizes the necessity of the negative and positive moves.

The main thrust of Dixon's exceptional player book was to explain what Lau Sr meant by weight shift.

Getting the desired nonbugsquishing back foot action where back heel leads back toe requires finishing the back foot push (requires a nice "carry" and "coil" among other things) before the front leg blocks.

Lau emphasizes weight shift the most and uses cues about when the front knee extends (Peavy calls it "front leg firmup") and how much weight shifts to as opposed to against the front leg as the key to in vs out location adjustment.

Epstein recognizes that weight must shift forward more when you get the axis upright to adjust for high ball.

So, the more outside and the more high, the more weight will have to shift forward. In any case it must synch well with coil/block,etc.

[FanRuth714]

If all you need to do is "rotate from the center" then why do 99% of MLB hitters stride??????

I do not need to stride to allow my core muscles to turn my hips...

[Ohfor]

Because it helps them rotate from the center.

They would like that little bit extra.

That little bit is the difference between 000,000,000 and 000,000.

However, one who doesn't know HOW to convert that linear into rotation gets between 00,000 and 0. :D

Most think they understand the stride. Many do. Very few understand the rotation.

[FanRuth714]

How does a stride help you rotate from the center????

[Ohfor]

Momentum creation.

[FanRuth714]

FORWARD momentum??

[Ohfor]

Backward..

[FanRuth714]

I am assuming you are joking....

[WonderMonkey]

So in your mind, rotational hitting doesn't require any transfer of weight???

I think that pushing off the back foot gives you MORE weight transfer. More then I would want.

[chesspirate]

Monkey: you don't have to push off the back foot to move forward, or create momentum.

FanRuth714, your post total is really low to be cocky.

Ohfor, let it out of the bag man.

[Ifubuildit]

Wouldnt the stride be a linear movement?

[WonderMonkey]

Monkey: you don't have to push off the back foot to move forward, or create momentum.


Agreed. I am saying nothing more nor implying more then what I was saying. Pushing off the back foot could give you more foreward movement then what you want. Maybe once again I wasn't part of prior threads to where this is being read into.

[FanRuth714]

FanRuth714, your post total is really low to be cocky.


How was I being cocky??

I just thought he had to be kidding. Forward movement during the stride is evident in nearly every MLB hitter.. I'd love to see a MLB hitter move backwards:


from the time the front foot is completely off the ground

as compared to:

the time the fron heel is completely down...

[FanRuth714]

FanRuth714, your post total is really low to be cocky.

Since when does post total on a website reveal anything about how much a person knows?

Monkey: you don't have to push off the back foot to move forward, or create momentum.

ok-so you are saying that the MLBer moves forward by rotating the core muscles???

I just do not see the connection in the front foot moving forward and /or coming off the ground in order to use core muscles to rotate the hips...

[Encinitas]

How was I being cocky??

I just thought he had to be kidding. Forward movement during the stride is evident in nearly every MLB hitter.. I'd love to see a MLB hitter move backwards:


http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//sorianoside.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//CFloyd2005NYM_SView.gif

[chesspirate]

nice clips Encinitas

Since when does post total on a website reveal anything about how much a person knows?

It's not what you know, it's that nobody knows you yet.

It's like walking into a new business meeting, the people have been together for a long time and a new specialist walks in. Doesn't matter how much that person knows, the fact that they haven't been in that particular business makes what the new person knows somewhat irrelevant.

Better to make relationships first and then show off.

somewhat related, isn't there an internet rules for posting on blog sites or something? I've gotta find that

[DunninLA]

Another way to move forward has nothting to do with *either* pushing off the back foot or rotating... it is to simply pick up the front leg... this forces a person whose weight is equally supported by front and back legs to fall forward. "Riding the back leg forward". If a person simultaneously bends the back leg, they will drop down about four inches and go forward into toe touch and foot plant. rotation happens somewhere in all that furr flying. Now my brain hurts.

[chesspirate]

Dunnin: i don't think the rear leg necessarily has to lower to drop the front side in any way. The act of moving forward with the lead leg and widending the base should create the downward fall into toe-touch/footplant

[Mark H]

Wouldnt the stride be a linear movement?

Hate the word stride, but the answer is, partly. Dixon is a must read on this.

[Steve Englishbey]

Those who are familiar with what Jim Dixon was trying to convey,and what was subsequently talked about on Setpro with regards to what Jim was trying to convey [see for example a thread regarding the distinction between a "rotational push" vrs. a" linear push"],and those who have seen me physically demonstrate various kinds of loading-unloding/movement patterns , should well understand the difficulty of trying to convey and describe this kind of movement with mere words.

For most that are not familiar with this kind of attempt to get on the "inside " of movement if you will , this is going to be nearly impossible to fully understand .

The real genius of Jim Dixon was his ability to look at movement "from the inside out."

Meaning that his seminal observations about the movement of elite hitters and pitchers was really an argument that this kind of movement was the result of subtle but hugely significant differences in how the muscle system was being utilized to create movement .

This ability to look from the inside out had a great deal to do with his understanding [and his well developed "intuition"] as to how elite hitters and pitchers utilized the muscles of the torso [pelvic girdle region especially] to create qualitatetively different muscle activation ,sequencing ,and coordinative patterns.

I have said ----and others have said --- Jim Dixon has had an enormous influence on how I think about and understand the movement of elite hitters and pitchers.

And he has had an enormous influence on how I try to teach hitting .

For example Jim has said that most people learn how to swing the bat by using their arms and legs.

I could not agree more.And much of what informs how ,what ,and why ,I teach is a function of this kind of understanding.


I also think that it is essentially impossible to develop the kind of highly developed sequencing and "good separation" that we see in elite hitters ,unless you can utilize the torso in the manner that Jim was trying to convey and describe.

I see about 5 or 10 out of a 100 high school hitters that even approximate what Jim Dixon was describing .

And these are the hitters that are usually going to be drafted or go to a D1 college.


I also think that one can learn how to create this kind of movement .

Or head towards this kind of movement by certain kinds of training methods and emphasis [but which few will be willing to do----meaning that anything involving the attempt to really master any subject matter will involve doing things that only a few will be willing to fully commit to ].


One thing I know for certain . It will be very difficult to convey with mere words the kind of understanding that Jim Dixon had.

His understanding was truly unique and more so than anyone that I know , he described well what is a near impossibility.

Meaning that he was able to look from the outside and see what was happening from the inside.

Those who know what he was trying to get at are grateful that he made us all just a little bit less "blind" .

steve

[Ifubuildit]

I cant get Dixons book up here in DFW. Have exhausted my resources. If you know of a way I can get a copy please PM me.

Elliott

[FanRuth714]

FanRuth714

If all you need to do is "rotate from the center" then why do 99% of MLB hitters stride??????

I do not need to stride to allow my core muscles to turn my hips...


Ohfor

Because it helps them rotate from the center


FanRuth714

How does a stride help you rotate from the center????



Ohfor

Momentum creation.


FanRuth714

FORWARD momentum??



Ohfor

Backward..


FanRuth714

I am assuming you are joking....



chesspirate
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 173

Monkey: you don't have to push off the back foot to move forward, or create momentum.

FanRuth714, your post total is really low to be cocky.

Ohfor, let it out of the bag man.


FanRuth714

How was I being cocky??

I just thought he had to be kidding. Forward movement during the stride is evident in nearly every MLB hitter.. I'd love to see a MLB hitter move backwards:


from the time the front foot is completely off the ground

as compared to:

the time the fron heel is completely down...


Encinitas
Quote:
Originally Posted by FanRuth714

I just thought he had to be kidding. Forward movement during the stride is evident in nearly every MLB hitter.. I'd love to see a MLB hitter move backwards:

Encinitas-you conveniently omitted a very important part of my post which was:
I'd love to see a MLB hitter move backwards:

from the time the front foot is completely off the ground

AS COMPARED TO:

the time the fron heel is completely down...


even the hitters you displayed show forward movement during the stride. Yes the stride involves a shift backward in preparation for the shift forward.

If forward momentum is not needed as some of you seem to believe and if the stride is used to create"Backward" momentum then hitters should have no need to stride FORWARD...they should step back- but they don't.

They step FORWARD to create FORWARD momentum

again-How does a stride (foot moving forward) help you rotate from the center????

[Mark H]

Encinitas-you conveniently omitted a very important part of my post which was:


even the hitters you displayed show forward movement during the stride. Yes the stride involves a shift backward in preparation for the shift forward.

If forward momentum is not needed as some of you seem to believe????


No one believes that. Please read everything on here and or get Steve's dvd's before you get obstreperous. You are asking us to cover ground years past. Which is fine, except you ask with an attitude and we have all covered this same ground so many times.


and if the stride is used to create"Backward" momentum then hitters should have no need to stride FORWARD...they should step back- but they don't.

They step FORWARD to create FORWARD momentum

again-How does a stride (foot moving forward) help you rotate from the center????

The foot moving forward doesn't. The middle moving forward does...if you know how and what to do with the momentum generated. Get a copy of Dixon's book.

[chesspirate]

except you ask with an attitude and we have all covered this same ground so many times.
just needs to be re-iterated.

lots of stuff on here has been covered. Asking questions is great, having a know it all attitude, from the get-go, isn't going to get you anywhere.


Get a copy of Dixon's book.
An awsome addition to my hitting library.

[Mark H]

just needs to be re-iterated.

lots of stuff on here has been covered. Asking questions is great, having a know it all attitude, from the get-go, isn't going to get you anywhere.


.

That's right. Most on here will bust themselves to answer questions and help someone who is genuinely wanting to understand. Especially when the questions show they have been doing some homework.

[collegeStar]

The intimidation continues....what a bunch of ignorant jerks....


fungo22
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Texas
Posts: 517

Intellectual Dishonesty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read that entire thread, *******. The PM quoted from me was a joke intended to get Englishbey to respond the the guy. You are deliberately trying to twist the facts to make that PM look like something it was not. If you want to get into it with me, just post another ******* piece of s*** like your last one. Either be honest or get the hell off the forum. I can tolerate stupid but I cannot tolerate a dishonest ******* with a chip on his shoulder.



Originally Posted by fungo22
He paid me to watch it, but that was before he was famous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fungo22
Cletus, call this guy and take his money. Then send him your video if you feel like it.
Reply With Quote



this is how they talk to one another...

the hoop jumping and secrecy is the same you got from Nyman...Englishbey has learned his baseball and bedside manner from Nyman...and both are wrong...


Originally Posted by jusris
So Ohfor, let me see if I got this for future reference...

I contact someone about helping me get into contact with a great hitting guru who has a video for purchase that will help my kids out with thier swing. That contacted person then says he will help me in a PM to get into contact with someone about the video. Contact person also sends me a PM to Cletus "by mistake", stating that maybe Cletus contact me about the video, and in that PM to Cletus he stats word for word, "Cletus, call this guy and take his money. Then send him your video if you feel like it." Now my reaction to this PM should have been to PM contact person and ask him "Privately" if he indeed wanted to take me for a loop with Cletus as he states in his "mistake" PM or if this was just him joking about taking my money with Cletus.

Good one. again for future reference only. Thanks for the help.


these jerks (posse) --all of them should be avoided....

[chesspirate]

are you still going on about this?

You are one ignorant piece of work.

It was been explained to you in a very clear manner that what was said was a joke, in reference to Nyman.

Goodness, you did end up getting your stuff didn't you? or did you just get your money back? wich you would have...

[FanRuth714]

I am still trying to figure out where I got so "out of line"


Mark H:
help someone who is genuinely wanting to understand.

I genuinely want to understand.

How does a stride (foot moving forward) help you rotate from the center???

thank you...

[tom.guerry]

RUTH714-

I think the best fudamental explanation is from Yeager who has a website where his CD's can be ordered. They are worth it. I have forgotten the exact URL.The universal sequence of the high level swing:

back leg load
back leg push
front leg block
front leg push

Getting good weight shift/synch is very difficult when you practice no stride and suppress arm action.Weight shift is absolutely necessary to reliably/consistently launch a quick well timed high level swing.A good arm action sequence organizes the motion as it does in the overhand throw.

From the body perspective (minimal arm action detail):

The sequence of the swing starts with an inward turn where the body turns back pretty much in 1 piece and loads on the back leg. Yeager calls this "back leg load".

Next the body creates stability by loading the lower body/"cocking the hip" and the body goes forward by a combination of gravity (which depends on how the weight is distributed when you load the back leg) and spreading or "Abduction" of the legs/ knees spreading.

The body continues to load during this time as the "hands cock" and the shoulders firm up which prevents the body from turning open (back leg stays internally rotated in hip joint) or turning back too much as the weight is "carried forward" by the muscle tone of the loaded hips and loading shoulders.Yeager calls this "back leg push". It is not a pushing action created by the legs extending or flexing at the knees. This extension/flexion motion is required instead to help vary the degree of sit/ "vertical load" as the weight goes forward toward toe touch. Instead the "push" means that the body is using the contact of the back foot base with the ground to develop a pushing force that is accelerating forward weight shift, primarily by spreading of the knees, but also blended with gravity depending,again, on how much vertical/dropping action there is/how center of body is horizontally positioned with respect to developing base/where feet end up positioned when bearing weight.

Before the front leg blocks, the body must actively coil/"wind the rubber band" which can happen before or after front toe touch depending on a player's style and the location of the pitch. In any case, as Yeager points out, you must "finish back leg push before front leg block". This means that the body must be coiling by means of a loaded shoulder link staying back by good arm slotting action (as bat uncoks) and the hips opening by synchronized front leg then hip action (using the loaded back leg at hip joint/keep INternally rotating back leg-need to have this sequence right) so that the rate of body coil/stretch continues to increase and the forward acceleration of the center of mass is finishing BEFORE the front leg forms a base that can be used to slow/BLOCK this forward "linear momentum" and use it to boost hip turn to maximum velocity as the hip "uncocks".The rubber band winding musdt be effectively underway before blocking can boost hip turn efficiently/transform linear into angular momentum.

The blend of uncoking the hip and transforming the linear momentum as a boost needs to create a last quick coil stretch of the body (xfactor stretch between hips and shoulders) AFTER the front foot is down and blocking (which is why you need to stride THEN swing) but without "interruption"/without letting the rate of body coil/stretch slow down.

The proper quick last stretch/coil/maxing out of xfactor/separation reverses efficiently to launch a quick swing (best way of transferring/transforming momentum as instantaneously as possibly using elasticity and muscle refelexes as opposed to slower pure muscling/muscular force production).It requires the simultaneous hip and shoulder action that Epstein describes best as "drop and tilt". Epstein also explains well how the shoulder action is related to the back knee flex/hinge which is necessary part of adjusting swing plane/timing to optimize contact - the subject of adjustment which is a whole nother level of action superimposed on these basics of sequence.

THEN, the uncoil/unloading drives the bathead quickly to contact assisted by "front leg push"/extension which should see a good synch of uncoking/aDucting wrists through contact as the front leg gets to full extension.

Yeager has a really nice millisecind by millesecond breakdown of good and less good swings that are a MUST HAVE if you want an adequate analytical understanding of weight shift.

[fungo22]

The intimidation continues....what a bunch of ignorant jerks....

... these jerks (posse) --all of them should be avoided.... One of the two guys that like your stuff, Tom.

[Ohfor]

Fungo,

Do you know what the answer is when you have to choose between two evils?

[MarkL]

Many of us out here Tom.

Keep writing we are reading..

Yeager's stuff is outstanding.

Best description of the high level swing I have ever seen and I have seen them all-including the PCR SteveE and Nyman....

Yeager's printed materiel IS great----light on the drills, but If you want to understand the how and whys of the MLB swing, nothing comes close to Yeager.......baseballscience.com

[FanRuth714]

Thanks Tom--great stuff...


This goes out to any and all that have responded in this thread:


I am trying to get my head around this "middle-out" point of view....

If the PCR theory is that hitters should "rotate from the middle" and that the legs are essentially slave to the rotation of the "middle" then how do they reconcile the fact that nearly all MLBers stride??

I am not trying to say who or what is right or wrong I just want to understand how the stride is justified with this thoery.



Something like the following would be greatly appreciated:


The great majority of MLBers move the front foot forward becauses it enhances PCR by ___ _____ ______ __________ _________ ___________ ____________ _________ ____________ _____________ ______ __________ ___________.


thank you.

[Mark H]

Thanks Tom--great stuff...


This goes out to any and all that have responded in this thread:


I am trying to get my head around this "middle-out" point of view....

If the PCR theory is that hitters should "rotate from the middle" and that the legs are essentially slave to the rotation of the "middle" then how do they reconcile the fact that nearly all MLBers stride??

I am not trying to say who or what is right or wrong I just want to understand how the stride is justified with this thoery.



Something like the following would be greatly appreciated:


The great majority of MLBers move the front foot forward becauses it enhances PCR by ___ _____ ______ __________ _________ ___________ ____________ _________ ____________ _____________ ______ __________ ___________.


thank you.

You would be best served by buying Dixon's book. Whole 'nuther point of view. Right now you are watching the magician's hand while the trick is going on elsewhere.

[GFK]

...If the PCR theory is that hitters should "rotate from the middle" and that the legs are essentially slave to the rotation of the "middle" then how do they reconcile the fact that nearly all MLBers stride?? ...

Think of it this way. If you have ever pushed a car (I ride junkers), you will have noticed it takes a great amount of force to overcome the at-rest (static) inertia and get the vehicle rolling. Once the vehicle is rolling, it takes much less effort to keep it rolling.

The stride gives the hitter some momentum to carry into the turn / rotation. If the timing is correct, when the hitter starts to rotate, the bat and torso will not be starting from a static position. Their are some hitters who break the static inertia without a stride and do very well (Pujols).

[ssarge]

If the PCR theory is that hitters should "rotate from the middle" and that the legs are essentially slave to the rotation of the "middle" then how do they reconcile the fact that nearly all MLBers stride??
Nearly all Major Leaguers hold their bat in their hands, too.

And still manage to generate most of the force of the swing w/ their bodies.


Striding - done correctly, which is rare among NON-elite hitters - develops momentum which can be transferred to rotation around the front hip. It also serves to carry the body's mass forward.

Both things can be accomplished without striding - Pujols is a good example. But the majority of elite hitters use the stride to help accomplish the objective.

Elite athletes are fairly natural in using the center of the body to create force.

Most young hitters are not elite hitters, and don;t naturally do this.

They can learn to do it, however.

Many of us who work w/ athletes whose natural gifts do not put them at the top of the pyramid have discovered that eliminating the stride in the developmental process helps train those athletes to do what didn't come naturally - use the middle to create force.

And in most cases, once that is learned, we implement a stride to assist in timing and maybe slightly enhance the development of momentum.

I have just gone through this exact process with my own daughter, and found the addition of the stride to be relatively painless. And her swing today looks pretty good. And she definitely has an enhanced timing ability now.

Regards,

Scott

[GeorgiaHoo]

Thanks for the info Scott. I was going to post that it was my understanding, based on looking at the video, that with PCR most players still stride, at least the college FP players do (is Michelle Smith one who doesn't?).

I also wonder how much power Pujols generates (similar to Bustos in FP possibly) because of his size alone (6'3" 225) without needing to stride (although Bustos does stride).

[MarkL]

Tom--as you noted:

Yeager points out, you must "finish back leg push before front leg block".

***forward acceleration of the center of mass is finishing BEFORE the front leg forms a base that can be used to slow/BLOCK this forward "linear momentum" and use it to boost hip turn to maximum velocity as the hip "uncocks".

This was key in his videos for me to finally understand weight shift and stride...

[tom.guerry]

Arm action emphasis has increased over the years.

Dixon was the first to recognize it as the key differentiator between the skills of throw vs hit.

Some in Hodge.

Much more in LAu Jr than Sr.

Most emphasized by Mankin.

Good stuff by YEager too.

I find that thinking of how to synch up overlapping load and unload programs with weight shift is an adequate way to organize analysis.

Weight going forward prepares the lower body to start turning open LEAD BY the front leg externally rotating in synch with the back arm - synchronized external rotation, arms permitting leg to go first.

Upper body resistance to turning open which creates good coil means that the upper body/arms and bat must be finishing the load program, including uncoking the bat as the unload program proceeds in the lower body to get coil right.

This is a more adequate/still necessary analytical model than the "from the center" Nyman oversimplification.

[9'sDad]

As many here are aware, my daughter and I have been working diligently of the past week to get a firm grasp on this hitting style. So far, some are saying that she is progressing quite well.

With that being said, in order to allow room for the stride and weight transfer she has to slide a tad deeper in the box than usual for contact to be at the front of the plate. Is that usual or are we missing something?

BTW, thanks to everyone who has helped to this point.

[WonderMonkey]

As many here are aware, my daughter and I have been working diligently of the past week to get a firm grasp on this hitting style. So far, some are saying that she is progressing quite well.

With that being said, in order to allow room for the stride and weight transfer she has to slide a tad deeper in the box than usual for contact to be at the front of the plate. Is that usual or are we missing something?

BTW, thanks to everyone who has helped to this point.

Contact at the front of the plate is relative to where you are standing. For a netural position in the box the front of the plate is typical. If you are standing further up or further back you have to adjust that contact point appropriately.

[9'sDad]

Contact at the front of the plate is relative to where you are standing. For a netural position in the box the front of the plate is typical. If you are standing further up or further back you have to adjust that contact point appropriately.

So it is understandable that when adding a weight shift to a stride without a weight shift that a batter would have to slide a tad bit deeper then, right?

[WonderMonkey]

So it is understandable that when adding a weight shift to a stride without a weight shift that a batter would have to slide a tad bit deeper then, right?

Sure, if you want the same contact point. It's only a small difference.

Of course the next question is about the decision to do weight transfer over rotational. Some are for one, some are for another. The overwhelming view on this board is that rotational is the way to go.

If you are only adding the small weight shift to help in the opening of the core (hips, etc) then it's such a small shift difference you may not care to fool with it.

[9'sDad]

It's my understanding that there is a weight transfer with rotational hitting.

[WonderMonkey]

It's my understanding that there is a weight transfer with rotational hitting.

Yes there is and it is to aid in the rotation. There are better people then myself here to explain it. A few threads on first page are speaking about it and is one of the major topics here. I'm going to defer to some of the other guys.

[Encinitas]

Yes there is and it is to aid in the rotation. There are better people then myself here to explain it. A few threads on first page are speaking about it and is one of the major topics here. I'm going to defer to some of the other guys.

The preferred term is momentum shift. Much like the Soriano or Cliff Floyd clips and certain Manny clips you'll see a weight shift to front side, but it's not what you think. Good momentum development leads to good rotation. Often this enables the rotation to start just before the front heel drops.

Now keep in mind, some of these are not strides in the traditional sense. They might simply be picking it up, moving the middle and as the foot comes down starting their core rotation. So it isn't as if you can say, the foot comes forward 3 inches, it often comes right back to where it was, but this loads the hips, and allows for better unload.

[MarkL]

Yeager from the "Stride" thread.

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.p...owtopic=159&hl=


*********In order to correctly describe the actions of the swing I would highly recommend that you substitute the word “WEIGHT” with “CENTER OF PRESSURE” and “CENTER OF MASS”. (You may not need to use this terminology with players, but for a literal description of the swing COP and COM offer more information about what is happening.)



When the stride is complete, your CENTER OF PRESSURE SHOULD BE ON YOUR FRONT FOOT AND your CENTER OF MASS is behind your center of pressure. This is NOT a position where the “weight” is “balanced” on both feet. There is a DYNAMIC BALANCE with the great majority of pressure held on the front foot.



sooooo-Yes the CENTER OF MASS is pushed forward during the stride, but the MASS should stay behind the CENTER OF PRESSURE which is on the front foot after the stride. This is the feeling of "against" that you get.


He has a gret deal of info in the timing of the actions in his DVDs and printed materiel...found at www.baseballscience.com

another good thread:

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=258&hl=

[FanRuth714]

SSarge:
Striding - done correctly --- develops momentum which can be transferred to rotation around the front hip. It also serves to carry the body's mass forward.


is this not working from-the-ground-up NOT the-middle-out????

[FanRuth714]

SSarge
It (Striding) also serves to carry the body's mass forward.

I thought in PCR the "middle" was responsible for moving the body forward.