Bill Burgess
07-02-2006, 12:10 PM
Introducing Buck Ewing: October 27, 1859 - October 20, 1906;
NL catcher, IF, OF, 3B, 2B, P, 1880-97
NL manager, 1890, 1895-1900
Bill James; Nov. 5, 1949 - Still Alive;
Prolific author of BB books, popularized new study of BB stats, called "sabermetrics", amazingly widely-read on BB subjects.
First called my attention to Buck Ewing, in his 1st Hist. Abstract, pp. 33-35. Bill points out that many respected BB men considered Ewing to be the greatest all-around PLAYER ever, not simply the greatest catcher. John B. Foster, Mickey Welch and Monte Ward all thought Buck was the greatest ballplayer ever to play the game, until the day they died. That got my attention. Sadly, Bill now down-rates Buck as a catcher due to so few games caught.
John P. McCarthy, Jr. also chooses Buck as his catcher on his A team, from his book, Baseball's All Time Dream Team, 1994.
Connie Mack, Dec. 22, 1862 - Feb. 6, 1956;
NL catcher (1886-96), Phil Athletics' manager (1901-50)
Had Ewing as his catcher as late as Dec. 24, 1931, and John McGraw had Buck as his catcher until he died.
John McGraw, April 7, 1873 - Feb. 25, 1934;
ML 3B (1891-06); Baltimore Oriole man. (1899 , 01-02), NY Giants man. 1902-32)
Had Buck as his catcher until he died.
Grantland Rice, Nov. 1, 1880 - July 13, 1954;
(Atlanta, Cle., Nashville, NY spwr. 1902-54) Most loved, and widely read sports writer of all time.
Put him on a All Time team in 1918. (Sporting News, Jan. 10, 1918, pp. 5, column 2.)
4. Clark Griffith, Nov. 20, 1898 - Oct. 27, 1955;
(ML pitcher,1891-14), (Senators manager,1901-20), Senators owner,1920-55
Chose Buck as his catcher of his scientific team in 1952, and Cochrane / Dickey for his "power" team. (Sporting News, July 23, 1952, pp. 12)
A 3rd book describing Buck is The Greatest Giants of Them All by Arnold Hano, 1967. The section describing Buck is superb and too long to insert here. But one can read this cool fascinating stuff on Buck Ewing through inter-library loans, for almost free.
Buck Ewing has been my catcher for about 17 years now. He was reputed to have been the best all-around PLAYER of the 1800's.
John B. Foster, July 16, 1863-Sept. 29, 1941;
NY spwr., 1888-1941, Editor-in-Chief of Official Spalding Baseball Guide(1908-41), NY Giants business manager/secretary, 1912-1919.
In spring, 1938, John B. Foster, the long time editor of Spalding Official Baseball Guide, from 1908-41, finally chose his all-time team, and chose Ewing as his choice for the Greatest Ever Player. Foster had been watching players come and go since 1887.
Here is John Foster's entry for Ewing, from that 1938 Guide.
The first to be picked, and the first who should be selected in this stretch of fifty years, is William Ewing, better known as Buck."
He is to be the catcher. He has been called the greatest all-round player ever connected with the game. I think that he was. He pitched, played every position on the infield and played the outfield. He did not play at them but played them. I was ready to laugh at his efforts when he essayed to pitch, but he quickly cured me of the inclination. Although he did not have the finesse of Tim Keefe, that great pitcher who was his contemporary, he showed that he had the art, was thoroughly conversant with the batter's weakness, and was doing his level best to pitch to it.
The great speed of Keefe, the curves of Mickey Welsh and the cannonball service of ponderous Ed Crane were missing in Ewing, yet he had an effective style of his own and the batter was not slow in ascertaining it. He was a good adviser to his brother "Long John."
As a thrower to bases Ewing never had a superior, and there are not to exceed ten men who could come anywhere near being equal to him. Ewing was the man of whom it was said, He handed the ball to the second baseman from the batter's box. George W. Howe, treasurer of the Cleveland club, once asked the manager of the team, Oliver Tebeau, why the runners of Cleveland, who were very good, did not steal bases more often when they play New York. Because they're out before they start, was the quick replay. "That man behind the bat for New York can't be fooled. He knows when a runner is going to start practically as soon as the runner decides to make the attempt, and he shoots the ball down to Richardson, who catches the best man we've got.
He stands up an waits for him to come, and makes our runners look foolish."
What was said by Tebeau voiced the sentiment of every other captain in the league. Even the famed Mike Kelly used to study Ewing for minutes at a time, trying to find out how he managed to get the ball to second so smoothly and quickly." (Spalding NL Official Base Ball Guide, 1938, pp. 14)
Francis C. Richter, Jan. 26, 1854-Feb. 12, 1926;
Philadelphia sportswriter (1876-1926), AL Reach Baseball Guide Editor-In-Chief (1901-1926, death)
John B. Foster's counterpart, Francis C. Richter, who had been watching ballplayers since the 1868, chose Ewing as the Greatest Player Ever in 1919.
Mr. Richter was a Phil. spwr. since 1872, and served as the Editor-In-Chief of the AL Official Base Ball Guide from 1902-1926. He had started sp. dept. at newspapers, and was of the most influential movers & shakers in baseball. Even though by 1925, Richter had evolved to Cobb, that only served to prove that he had never allowed himself to grow stale. Here is the quote from Richter, taken from the 1919 Reach AL Baseball Official Guide.
"It is a difficult, not to say ungrateful, task to select any one player as superior to all the rest, though we have always been inclined to consider Catcher-Manager William (Buck) Ewing in his prime, from 1884 to 1890, as the greatest player of the game. From the standpoint of supreme excellence in all departments-batting, catching fielding, base running, throwing and base ball brains-a player without a weakness of any kind, physical, mental, or temperamental. . . ."
I have seen all the players in the major leagues in action since 1868, and . . . Ty Cobb appears to me to be, with two exceptions, just a trifle superior to all the rest. . . these two exceptions are Buck Ewing, the greatest catcher that ever stood in shoe leather and Hans Wagner, the super-excellent shortstop of the Pittsburgh club." (Reach AL Baseball Official Guide, 1919)
John McGraw, April 7, 1873 - Feb. 25, 1934;
ML 3B (1891-06); Baltimore Oriole man. (1899 , 01-02), NY Giants man. 1902-32)
In 1919, John McGraw had this to say about Buck. "Roger Bresnahan was the greatest catcher I ever saw, always excepting Buck Ewing."
(Baseball Magazine, May, 1919, pp. 14)
Four years later, In his autobiography in 1923, John J. McGraw, had this to say about Buck Ewing. He came as near to being a catcher without a single weakness as the game has ever known. In fact, Buck Ewing was a Ty Cobb behind the bat. He had a mental capacity equal to his playing ability. Ewing could handle a team perfectly. He had an uncanny knack of getting the jump on the pitchers.
No player ever studied a rival pitcher's delivery closer and was so quick to take advantage of the slightest false move. As a thrower Buck excelled. He got the ball away from him with a quick round arm snap, no time being wasted. Buck threw what is known as a very "heavy" ball, one that dropped in the baseman's hand like a lump of lead. Ewing had so much confidence in his throwing that I have seen him deliberately roll the ball away from him just to tempt the base runner into a steal. He was hard hitter as well as a scientific place hitter. Roger Bresnahan was a close second to Ewing in all that goes to make a great catcher." (John J. McGraw, My Thirty Years in Baseball, by John J. McGraw, as told to Bozeman Bulger, 1923, pp. 214)
In a truly wonderful article for The Sporting News, dated Feb.18, 1932, John B. Foster, gives a glowing description of Ewing. I've cherry-picked a few choice tid-bits from that article.
"There are some who think Charley Bennett was a trifle superior to Ewing and some who incline to Mike Kelly. Of these two, Bennett was much the better. Kelly was popular with the crowd, but, as a technician, he was not the equal of Bennett, and the latter was not the equal of Ewing in brilliancy as well as in physical attainments.
One day, he was talking about throwing and about his arm. "I can snap them just as easy as I can throw them." he said. What's the use of standing up every time you want to catch a man off the bases. You have got to lose two steps on the runner while you are straightening yourself out. You see, my forearm is pretty strong," extending his arm for inspection, as he said it.
"I've got good muscles below the elbow and around it. I'll bet that I can throw into the outfield using my forearm only, nearly as far as some players can throw if they put all they have into an overhand motion." "But don't you think that some day you will hurt your arm by so much of this forearm snapping of the ball?" "I don't see why. It's there, and good. Tell me what difference it makes if you use the muscles of your lower arm, depend upon them, you might say, and don't use the muscles around your shoulder." It may not make any difference, but some baseball men, you know, have a hunch that your forearm will give out quicker than your upper arm."
I'm still goin'," was the reply. Yet that was the very thing that happened. (Spring, 1892) His forearm did give out and he could no longer snap the ball as he had, but he could throw fairly well overhand and so he played in the outfield after he had finished catching.
Ewing could handle the delivery of any pitcher. He was as remarkable in that respect as he was in others. Ed Crane, who was called Hercules in his day--and he was the model of a Hercules--had more speed than any other pitcher in the National League, but did not know how to control the ball, and to try to catch him was a task and something of a physical feat, for he had the reputation of tearing up the hands of a catcher because of his speed. Ewing could handle him and escape the punishment that other catchers seemed to receive and he could get winning games out of him where others failed to keep him steady.
As a field general, Buck brought the Giants into the championship class. John Ward had tried it and failed. Ward was a good leader, but not of the type of Ewing, and not qualified to handle a team like the Giants as successfully as Ewing could handle them. Buck knew the plays and the players of other teams. I doubt whether any catcher ever knew opposing batters more thoroughly than he did and that helped to make him great.
One day, I told him I thought he led all the catchers in baseball history . . . "I'm glad you think so," said Buck. "I tried to do the best I could and oh, man, but I did love to play with the old Giants. I used to think that if I could catch as well as Charley Bennett was catching for Boston, we could win the championship. We only beat 'em a game in 1889, so there couldn't have been much difference between me and Charley." (The Sporting News, Feb.18, 1932, pp. 5, "Buck Ewing Called Greatest Catcher in Game's History, by John B. Foster)
John M. Ward - "There will never be another Ewing. He is on top. He was a great hitter and a brilliant man back of the plate."
Ward was being quoted by Granny Rice. (The History of Baseball, by Allison Danzig and Joe Reichler, 1959, pp. 255, column 1)
Tim Keefe - Upon Buck's death on Oct. 21, 1906, his former pitcher, Tim Keefe had these comments. "The other players on the team would go through fire and water for Buck, and I believe no better captain ever stepped upon a ball field. The game has not in its ranks to-day any one who can approach him. I say most unhesitatingly that I never knew his equal as an all-around ball player.
"He was a fine fellow both on and off the field. While the greatest catcher of ancient or modern times, he could do a smart trick in the box, and once almost killed Roger Conner with one of his fast ones. He could play any infield position skillfully. I never saw any one play a deeper short than he. He was a great man for his pitcher, for he knew how to steady him, and no one ever made a deeper study of the weaknesses of opposing batsman." (Washington Post, Oct. 28, 1906, pp. S4)
Cap Anson, April 11, 1852 - April 14, 1922;
(ML 1B, 1871-97), (ML man., 1875, '79-98)
The best catcher I ever saw was Buck Ewing, who caught for the Giants when they won the world's championship in 1888 and 1889. I have never to this day seen his equal, but little Walters, of the New York Yankees, reminds me of Ewing's throwing on bases. "Ewing was a quick thinker and a natural born leader. (Washington Post, June 3, 1917, pp. S18)
Sam Crane, Jan. 2, 1854-June 26, 1925;
ML 2B, 1880-90. NY sportswriter, 1990-25
"Buck Ewing was the best catcher I ever saw," says Crane. "He had everything." (Baseball Magazine, April, 1918, pp. 475)
4. Clark Griffith, Nov. 20, 1898 - Oct. 27, 1955;
(ML pitcher,1891-14), (Senators manager,1901-20), Senators owner,1920-55
"In the catching line, the stars of the present day, are not as good as those of the other days. Buck Ewing never has known an equal as a catcher. I call him the best ball player the world ever has known. The only man who ever approached him was Mike Kelly, of the old Chicago White Sox. Kelly, too, was a wonder, but not quite equal to Ewing." (Washington Post, April 26, 1914, pp. S2.)
Ned Hanlon, Aug. 22, 1857-April 14, 1937;
ML OF 1880-92, NL man. 1889-1907, exc. 1890 player's L. manager.
"No man ever had anything on Buck Ewing as a catcher. He had a wonderful arm, a great head, and was, in my opinion, the best all-round player that ever lived." (Washington Post, Oct. 28, 1906, pp. S4) By 1909, Ned had evolved to Ty Cobb, as his number one ranked player, all time.
John B. Sheridan, Jan. 22, 1870-April 14, 1930;
St. Louis spwr. (1888-1929), Sporting News column, "Back of Home Plate", 1917-29
(Joe) Vila questions the equality of Roger Bresnahan as a catcher to Buck Ewing, Mike Kelly or Charley Bennett. I have had doubts between Breshahan and Ewing, but none about Bresnahan or Ewing's superiority to Kelly or Bennett. To my mind, Kelly was a great personality rather than a great ball player. He was, when fit, a good hitter, a clever base runner or entertaining player, but he never appealed to me as a great technician behind the bat. Charley Bennett was slow, and a good mark to pitch to, a good thrower. Ewing could receive, plan, throw, hit and run bases. I have always agreed Buck was one of the three greatest catchers, Bresnahan and Kling being the other two. I believe that Ewing and Kling had technically, better hands, were better receivers and takers of throws than Bresnahan . . . (Sporting News, February 11, 1926, pp. 4, column 6)
William B. Hanna, Oct., 1956? - Nov. 20, 1930;
NY sportswriter, 1888-1930
"Buck Ewing, more than any other catcher, combined the four cardinal qualities of physical greatness as a backstop. He was A1 as a batter, fielder, base runner and in head work. If you'll think over the other catchers you will find few, if any, who had all of these virtues.
Roger Breshahan came nearest, or Wally Schang, or Wilber Robinson. They were faster afoot than most catchers. A number of receivers could hit and catch and throw as well as Ewing, possibly Bennett was great as a backstop. So were Johnny Kling, Lou Criger, Martin Bergen, Jimmy Archer, Billy Sullivan and Bill Killefer, and Doe Bushong. So are Schalk, Severeid, Bassler and O'Farrell, the last named one of the best of the day for all around excellence. None has made the intaglio-like impress of Ewing. (Baseball Magazine, June, 1924, pp. 300, "Did you ever stop to realize that Roger Bresnahan is the second Buck Ewing of Baseball?" I hadn't, having created a sacred pedestal for Ewing. They broke the Ewing mould. (NY Herald Tribune, Dec. 31, 1926, From an Oldtimer's Notebook, by W. B. Hanna)
Joe Vila, Dec.16, 1886 - April 27, 1934;
NYC sports writer, 1893-1934
"A six footer, weighing 180 pounds, Ewing was noted for his all-around skill. He was a smart backstop, possessing a complete knowledge of the weak points of enemy hitters, a magnificent thrower to bases, always a .300 hitter and rated among the fastest base runners. Ewing not only was superb catcher, but he played every infield position capably and on several occasions showed that he would pitch with more than ordinary skill. "The History of Baseball: Its great Players, Teams and Managers, ed. By Allison Danzig & Joe Reichler, 1959, pp. 256) Joe Vila wrote the above quote in the NY Sun in 1934.
Lee Allen, (Jan. 12, 1915 - May 20, 1969);
(Cincinnati spwr. 1945 - 1958), (Hall of Fame Historian, 1959-69);
"But Detroit also had Charlie Bennett, considered the greatest catcher in the game except for Buck Ewing;" (The National League Story, by Lee Allen, 1961, pp. 61)
On more than one occasion he caught a brilliant game on one day, and on the following afternoon put in Bill Brown behind the bat and went into the box himself. In the fall of 1888 Ewing went to California as one of the star attractions of the Championship Giants, assisted by Mike Kelly, Jerry Denny, and Tom Brown. Ewing performed the remarkable feat of pitching every game played on that trip, sometimes two in a day, and winning all except one. The following year he caught eighty championship contests for the Giants without missing a game.
As aggressive a player as Buck was, he was never a rowdy in an age of unruly players. He didn't verbally abuse anyone and hence was extremely popular with all. One day in the spring of 1892, when he went to Connecticut to play an exhibition game with the New York's. It was snowing and the wind was cold and raw. Ewing made a quick throw to second base and something snapped in this shoulder. He never fully recovered the use of his throwing arm afterward.
During his career, he accumulated a small fortune that allowed him to live in comfort after he retired from the game. In the 7 yrs. After he retired from baseball until his death, he lived well-to-do, owning considerable property throughout the West. He had always had the good common sense to put away a good part of each year's stipend.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buck Ewing's Gold Glove Estimates, According to Mathew Souder's PCA stat system:
1880 - 16
1881 - 3 (Bennett)
1882 - 5 (Bennett)
1883 - 2 (Bushong)
1884 - 2 (Gilligan)
1885 - 1
1886 - 4 (Bennett)
1887 - 13 (Boyle)
1888 - 2 (Bennett)
1889 - 2 (Zimmer)
1890 - 3 (Farrell)
1891 - NR
1892 (1B) - 7 (Virtue)
1892 (C) - 23
1893 (RF) - 5 (Treadway)
1894 (RF) - 6 (Bannon)
1895 (1B) - 10 (Beckley)
1896 (1B) - 2 (Tebeau)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill James, in his 1st Historical Abstract, 1985, said that while he wasn't including players from pre-1900 and the Negro leagues in his top 100 All-Time list, he considered players Buck Ewing, Satchel Paige, and Oscar Charleston, not beneath his list, but in the top 10 in some other invisible theoretical list, alongside of it. Sadly, in his 2nd Historical Abstract, 2001, he doesn't include Ewing in his top 100 list, due to his catching only 636 games in 13 yrs. He rates Buck only 17 among catchers all-time. I first discovered Buck Ewing in Bill's 1st Historical Abstract. And I've seen no reason to down-rate him since. Buck stopped catching at age 32, because he threw his famous forearm out in spring, 1892.
Most people today don't remember that in 1936, there were supposed to originally be 5 pre- 1900 players elected along with the Original 5. It didn't work out that way. Needing 59 votes to get in, the leading vote getters were Buck Ewing with 40, Cap Anson 40, Keeler 33, Young 32 Ed Delahanty 22, McGraw 17, Herman Long 16, Charlie Radbourne 16, Mike Kelly 16, Amos Rusie 12. So none got elected.
So, in 1939, Judge Landis, Ford Frick and William Harridge selected Buck Ewing, Cap Anson, Al Spalding, Candy Cummings, Comiskey, Radbourne for inclusion in the Hall. Less desirous way to get in. Apparently, the post 1930 world has forgotten why 40 original voters thought Buck Ewing was fully the equal of Anson, as a player. I plan to remind them.
Most well-informed baseball fans now consider Buck Ewing the best all-around player who played pre-1900.
Bill James once considered Buck Ewing to be among the top 10 all-around position players of a theoretical All-Time list.
Author John P. McCarthy, Jr., who wrote Baseball's All-Time Dream Team, 1994, considers Buck Ewing the greatest catcher of all time.
I contend that the immortal Buck Ewing was the greatest catcher of all time, and until 1892, among the Top 10 All-Around Position Players of All Time, and the greatest All-Around Player of the 1800's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chancellor's analysis of catchers:
Bennett was regarded as the best catcher (i.e. not player as Buck Ewing or Roger Bresnahan were, but catcher) of the 19th century (and on into the deadball era.)
Ewing played more games at catcher than at other positions in the following seasons: 1881, 1883-86, 1888-90. In total, Ewing was behind the plate for only 636 out of 1,345 games. Bennett, on the other hand, played 954 of 1,084 career games at catcher.
Ewing, interestingly enough, is also credited with 4 "gold gloves" (as determined by defensive win shares), the same number as Bennett.
I poured over Win Shares for a few minutes, gathering the following:
From 1881-83, Charlie Bennett was the best catcher in the National League each of those three seasons. (Buck Ewing was usually second-best.)
From 1884-86 and from 1888-89 Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the National League each of those five seasons. (Charlie Bennett was usually second-best.) Also, in 1890, Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the Players League.
From 1881-89 either Bennett or Ewing was the best catcher in the NL with the sole exception of 1887, when Jim O'Rourke played 40 games at catcher, more than at any other position. (O'Rourke also played 38 games at third and 28 games in the outfield.) If you wanted a minimum percent of games played to qualify, then, you could technically crown Ewing the best catcher in the NL that year, too.
In their declining years in the 1890s, both Bennett and Ewing were eclipsed by Chief Zimmer, Jack Clements and Duke Farrell as the best catchers in baseball.
For a little over a decade, however, Bennett and Ewing were neck-and-neck as the best catchers in the game.
Editors Note: After Bill's comments made me look I must concede that Ewing's value as a catcher is diminished somewhat less by his 636 games than I had first thought.
Of the three names you mentioned - Bennett, Ewing and Kelly - I would have to rate them as offensive players in the following order:
Mike "King" Kelly
Buck Ewing
Charlie Bennett
Ewing, who is closer to Kelly than to Bennett offensively, played many more seasons primarily as a catcher and finished his career with more games at catcher than anywhere else (though he, too, was used at a number of other positions on a regular basis.)
Bennett was a full-time catcher, but his OPS+ of 118, while much better than most players, wasn't as good as Ewing - even if you just include Ewing's "catcher seasons".
So, I'd rate Ewing an edge over Bennett where I would tend to keep Kelly out of the ratings at all (though he was a better hitter than Ewing, if you're just talking about offensive ability.
Also...I would rate Deacon White in between Ewing and Bennett. White was the best catcher of the early years of professional baseball and was one of the game's first stars.
In the 19th century, only Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing and Pop Snyder led catchers in their league in defensive excellence four times. No catcher in history did it for a fifth time until Ray Schalk, at the end of the deadball era.
Bill Burgess
07-02-2006, 12:20 PM
Pre-1910: Jack Clements, Deacon Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Billy Sullivan, Charles Pop Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong, Moses Fleetwood Walker.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On January 12, 1894, at the age of 39, while still active as a ballplayer, Charlie Bennett was run over by a train at Wellsville, KS, and had to have both his legs amputated. Detroit's ballpark was subsequently named after Charlie.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On January 19, 1900, at the age of 28, Martin Bergen, due to mental illness, killed his wife, daughter, son and himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buck Ewing
supporters - 18-------------
Billy Sunday,Jan.24,09
Cap Anson,-Jun.17
Sam Crane,Apr.18
Monty Ward, BE,25
Francis C. Richter,Fe,26
William B. Hanna=26
John B. Sheridan=28
John McGraw,31
Joe Vila,34
John B. Foster,BE38
Fred Logan,=38
John Drebinger,38
Mickey Welch,BE,39
Amos Rusie,39
Nick Altrock,42
Arlie Latham,52
Clark Griffith,52
John McCarthy,94
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freakshow contributed this nice addition.
The top 16 in games at catcher, through 1892, with year retired:
894 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
743 S. Flint '89
668 D. Bushong '90
646 J. Clements '00
635 B. Ewing '97
566 K. Kelly '93
542 J. Milligan '93
538 B. Holbert '88
534 W. Robinson '02
516 C. Zimmer '03
486 C. Mack '96
472 J. Clapp '83
461 D. Miller '96
459 B. Gilligan '88
458 D. White '90
By 1900, four catchers had reached the 1000 mark.
The top 18 in games at catcher, through 1900, with year retired:
1171 D. McGuire '08
1162 W. Robinson '02
1095 C. Zimmer '03
1073 J. Clements '00
954 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
815 D. Farrell '05
743 S. Flint '89
739 M. Kittridge '06
668 D. Bushong '90
636 B. Ewing '97
636 D. Miller '96
630 P. Schriver '01
609 C. Mack '96
605 J. O'Connor '07
595 H. Peitz '06
585 J. Milligan '93
583 K. Kelly '93
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this gem in the historical section, to the thread, "The Greatest Catcher Ever", post #47, on July 30, 2004, 01:43PM
And it still sparkles with insight. An Impacted Life Join Date: Sep 2002, Posts: 2,493
The only two catchers I might rank as high are Buck Ewing and Josh Gibson and I'll tell you why I continue to select Bench over either of them.
Buck Ewing was certainly the greatest catcher in baseball history from the time he played until the Age of Messers. Cochrane, Hartnett and Dickey. Ewing was certainly one of the best players (regardless of position) of his era. However, Ewing was born before the Civil War and died at the age of 47, shortly after his retirement from the game. He certainly wasn't as physically gifted as Bench (or any great athlete born more than a hundred years later.) The competition Ewing faced wasn't necessarily the best in the country at that time as the many of the top "minor" league teams and players were of "major league" caliber. Ewing never had to face the top black or latino athletes in the hemisphere, either. In terms of dominating their respective eras, I can see where Ewing might be considered better than Bench, but in terms of the quality of baseball being played in those eras and doing cross-era comparisons of the all-time greats, I don't see how Ewing could be considered better than Bench at all. Bench excelled against a much higher level of competition, making his dominance more impressive (in my opinion.) Finally, on a defensive note, the catcher's position wasn't quite the same as living fans are prone to think of today and I believe that great defense behind the plate in the 1880s and 1890s is less impressive than great defense behind the plate in the modern era.
Putting Ewing or Gibson over Bench requires adopting a line of reasoning that I'm uncomfortable with and feel would be wrong-headed in such a comparison. I have to stick with Bench. Gibson #2. Ewing is #5 in my book (after Berra and Cochrane).
1. Bench 2. Gibson 3. Berra 4. Cochrane 5. Ewing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chancellor on Catchers:
Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 101, on February 9, 2004, 1:53PM:
Munson had a 116 OPS+ in 5,900 plate appearances. Bennett had a slightly higher OPS+ in roughly 1,500 fewer PAs. The difference, however, in playing time has everything to do with the eras in which they played.
Munson played regularly from 1970-78 and was the "starting" catcher in 1979, when injuries made him miss 65 games. For Munson, he was a starter at the age of 23 and died (in the second-half of his career) at the age of 32.
Bennett was the starting catcher on his teams from 1881-91, through eleven seasons (as opposed to Munson's 10). Quite simply, if the season had been 162 games in the 1880s, Bennett would very likely have at least as many PAs as did Munson.
So I think, in the context of their times, it is reasonable to say that their offense is a wash. Munson was a horrible baserunner. He stole 48 bases in 11 seasons, but was caught stealing 50 times! Bennett, on the other hand, stole 42 bases from the age of 31 on; there's no verifiable data on CS for those years or for SB totals prior to 1886. It isn't difficult to imagine that Bennett's career steals would look a little bit better if all the data were available. For now, let's call that a wash too.
So how about their defense? Well...Munson won 3 gold gloves. Bennett, playing many generations before the award was invented, won none of course.
According to defensive win shares, however, Bennett should have won 4 - in 1881-82, 1886 and 1890. And Munson? Defensive win shares point to a pair of undeserved awards; Munson shouldn't have received the prize in 1974-75. For their careers? Bennett receives an "A" while Munson is graded at a "B minus".
Of course, Munson received important hardware in 1976 when he was part of the first Yankee team to win a pennant in twelve years. The AL MVP that year, however, should have gone to someone else. Graig Nettles, Mickey Rivers and Roy White all had better seasons than Munson in 1976 -- and those were just his teammates. The best player in the AL in 1976 was among George Brett, Rod Carew and Bobby Grich. Brett led the league with 33 win shares - 9 more than Munson and there were a total of 21 players who had as much or more value than Munson did to their respective teams.
This isn't meant so much as a disaccreditation of hardware in modern baseball so much as it is to point out that the absence of hardware in an era before those awards were given regularly is no more/less telling than a few awards in modern baseball because, after all, even voters miss the mark from time to time.
Munson has a point in his column for his excellent post-season play. Bennett also won 2 post-season championships (and with two different teams) and had 13 hits and 10 RBIs in the 13 post-season games he appeared in.
So it looks like Munson and Bennett are basically a tie. And here's where we leave Munson behind.
Bennett was regarded as the best catcher (i.e. not player as Buck Ewing or Roger Bresnahan were, but catcher) of the 19th century (and on into the deadball era.)
Bennett meets 26.3 of the Hall of Fame's standards (where an "average" Hall of Famer meets 50.0), but Munson - playing in an era with over 50% more games per season - met only 29.5.
Of course, just as Munson's career was ended prematurely by the plane crash, so Bennett's career was abruptly interrupted by his losing both legs in an accident when he slipped crossing train tracks in 1894. Bennett was, in fact, so highly thought-of at the time that his former team, the Detroit Wolverines (later Tigers), named their ballpark after him; to this day Bennett remains the only player ever to receive that honor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 103, on February 9, 2004, 4:05PM:
Ewing played more games at catcher than at other positions in the following seasons: 1881, 1883-86, 1888-90. In total, Ewing was behind the plate for only 636 out of 1,345 games. Bennett, on the other hand, played 954 of 1,084 career games at catcher.
Ewing, interestingly enough, is also credited with 4 "gold gloves" (as determined by defensive win shares), the same number as Bennett.
I poured over Win Shares for a few minutes, gathering the following:
From 1881-83, Charlie Bennett was the best catcher in the National League each of those three seasons. (Buck Ewing was usually second-best.)
From 1884-86 and from 1888-89 Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the National League each of those five seasons. (Charlie Bennett was usually second-best.) Also, in 1890, Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the Players League.
From 1881-89 either Bennett or Ewing was the best catcher in the NL with the sole exception of 1887, when Jim O'Rourke played 40 games at catcher, more than at any other position. (O'Rourke also played 38 games at third and 28 games in the outfield.) If you wanted a minimum percent of games played to qualify, then, you could technically crown Ewing the best catcher in the NL that year, too.
In their declining years in the 1890s, both Bennett and Ewing were eclipsed by Chief Zimmer, Jack Clements and Duke Farrell as the best catchers in baseball.
For a little over a decade, however, Bennett and Ewing were neck-and-neck as the best catchers in the game.
Editors Note: After Bill's comments made me look I must concede that Ewing's value as a catcher is diminished somewhat less by his 636 games than I had first thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 109, on February 11, 2004, 8:47AM:
Of the three names you mentioned - Bennett, Ewing and Kelly - I would have to rate them as offensive players in the following order:
Mike "King" Kelly
Buck Ewing
Charlie Bennett
However, Kelly played more games in the outfield than at catcher and, in fact, is categorized in the Hall of Fame as a rightfielder, not as a catcher. Only 5 of Kelly's 16 seasons saw him play at catcher more games than at any other position. And those were 5 of his final 6 years. Kelly barely amassed 1,600 plate appearances in those seasons so it really would be fair to include him in this discussion of great hitting catchers of the nineteenth century.
Ewing, who is closer to Kelly than to Bennett offensively, played many more seasons primarily as a catcher and finished his career with more games at catcher than anywhere else (though he, too, was used at a number of other positions on a regular basis.)
Bennett was a full-time catcher, but his OPS+ of 118, while much better than most players, wasn't as good as Ewing - even if you just include Ewing's "catcher seasons".
So, I'd rate Ewing an edge over Bennett where I would tend to keep Kelly out of the ratings at all (though he was a better hitter than Ewing, if you're just talking about offensive ability.
Also...I would rate Deacon White in between Ewing and Bennett. White was the best catcher of the early years of professional baseball and was one of the game's first stars.
I also happen to think White belongs in the Hall of Fame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suffice it to say at the moment that I've compiled a list of the best defensive catcher in each league/season from 1876-2003. This is, essentially, a list of the most "gold gloves", though in fact it ignores actual gold gloves won in favor of who win shares said was the best (as opposed to the subjectivity of the voters). This is a measurement of defense only.
Most win shares "gold gloves", catcher
9 Ray Schalk
8 Gary Carter
6 Gabby Hartnett
6 Ivan Rodriguez
5 Yogi Berra
5 Roy Campanella
5 Mickey Cochrane
5 Bill Dickey
5 Bill Freehan
5 Bill Killefer
5 Jim Sundberg
In the 19th century, only Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing and Pop Snyder led catchers in their league in defensive excellence four times. No catcher in history did it for a fifth time until Ray Schalk, at the end of the deadball era.
This isn't the final word on how good those players were defensively, but it's one way of examining things and I thought I'd pass the info along as I got it.
------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Win Shares Gold Gloves - Catchers
The Slaff: Aug. 22, 2005; 11:45 AM; Join Date: Jan., 2003; Posts: 269;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1876 J. Clapp / D. White
1877 Lew Brown
1878 Pop Snyder
1879 Pop Snyder
1880 Silver Flint
1881 Charlie Bennett
1882 Charlie Bennett … Pop Snyder (AA)
1883 Doc Bushong / Barney Gilligan … Bill Holbert (AA)
1884 Buck Ewing … Pop Snyder (AA) … George Baker (UA)
1885 Buck Ewing … Doc Bushong (AA)
1886 Charlie Bennett … Doc Bushong (AA)
1887 Tom Daly … Kid Baldwin (AA)
1888 Buck Ewing … Wilbert Robinson (AA)
1889 Buck Ewing … W. Robinson / Jack Boyle (AA)
1890 Charlie Bennett … Jack O'Connor (AA) … Duke Farrell (PL)
1891 Chief Zimmer … Morgan Murphy (AA)
1892 Chief Zimmer
1893 John Grim
1894 Duke Farrell
1895 Deacon McGuire
1896 Ed McFarland / C. Zimmer
1897 John Warner
1898 Lou Criger
1899 Ed McFarland
The Slaff Aug. 24, 2005, 11:47 AM Join Date: Jan 2003; Posts: 269
Win Shares Gold Gloves: Catchers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of times:
9x
Gary Carter, Ray Schalk
7x
Gabby Hartnett
6x
Ivan Rodriguez
5x
Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Bill Freehan, Bill Killefer, Jim Sundberg
4x
Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Jim Hegan, Lance Parrish, Ossee Schreckengost, Pop Snyder
3x
Brad Ausmus, Earl Battey, Doc Bushong, Del Crandall, Lou Criger, Bob Boone, Red Dooin, Johnny Edwards, Johnny Kling, Sherm Lollar, Ed McFarland, Ray Mueller, Muddy Ruel, Frank Snyder, Chief Zimmer
2x
Harry Danning, Duke Farrell, Rick Ferrell, George Gibson, Frankie Hayes, Charles Johnson, Deacon McGuire, Bob O'Farrell, Mickey Owen, Tony Pena, Wilbert Robinson, Buddy Rosar, Johnny Roseboro, Walter Schmidt, Brian Schneider, Mike Scioscia,
Luke Sewell, Ira Thomas, Jimmie Wilson
1x
Andy Allenson, Jimmy Archer, Ed Bailey, George Baker, Kid Baldwin, Walter Blair, Glenn Borgmann, Jack Boyle, Lew Brown
Rick Cerone, John Clapp, Tom Daly, Darren Daulton, Jody Davis, Einar Diaz, Brian Downing, Duffy Dyer, Bruce Edwards,
Joe Ferguson, Silver Flint, Rich Gedman, Barney Gill, Joe Girardi, Hank Gowdy, Earl Grace, John Grim, Tom Haller, Rollie Hemsley, John Henry, Ramon Hernandez, Ed Herrmann, Bill Holbert, Elston Howard, Randy Hundley, Ron Karkovice, Malachi Kittridge, Jack Lapp, Mike Lieberthal, Al Lopez, Javier Lopez, Gus Mancuso, Mike Matheny, Tim McCarver, Chief Meyers, Damian Miller, George Mitterwald, Bengie Molina, Pat Moran, Thurman Munson, Morgan Murphy, Jack O'Connor, Ken O'Dea, Joe Oliver, Mickey O'Neill, Steve O'Neill, Tom Pagnozzi, Bill Rariden, Del Rice, Paul Richards, Buck Rodgers, Manny Sanguillen, Benito Santiago, Admiral Schlei, Boss Schmidt, Terry Steinbach, Hal Smith, Billy Sullivan, Zack Taylor, Birdie Tebbetts, Al Todd, John Warner, Wes Westrum, Deacon White, Sammy White, Ernie Whitt, Rick Wilkins, Steve Yeager, Rudy York
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------__________________
It took those informations in Bill James "Win Shares: Digital Update" available at stats-inc website.
Yearly win shares leaders are listed...
-Top 10 overall
-Top 5 pitching win shares
-Top 5 batting win shares
-Top 5 defensive win shares for every position .
...1876 through 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Pre-1900 Catchers Caught Infrequently:
In the ancient times, pre-1900, many great catchers played very few games behind the plate. Many played other positions, due to the stress that crouching placed on their knees. A few of their records are:
"Deacon" James White: caught 226 g, out of 1299 total
Buck Ewing: caught 636 g, out of 1315 total, almost all in '80's. After that he lost his arm, and played 1B/OF in 90's.
Jim O'Rourke: caught 209 g, out of 1774
Mike "King" Kelly: caught 583 g, out of 1455. Mostly OF throughout career.
Roger Bresnahan: caught 974 g, out of 1446. Mostly OF otherwise.
Marty Bergen: caught 337 g, out of 344. Only played 4 seasons, 1896-99, before his mental illness caused him to take his own & his families lives.
Charlie Bennet: caught 954 g, out of 1062. OF otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So that was my post back when. And then AG2004 rebutted me nicely with this following rejoiner.
And let's not forget (just among those playing sometime in 1887)
Pop Snyder: caught 877 g, out of 930 (including National Association games).
Jack Clements: caught 1073 g, out of 1157.
Chief Zimmer: caught 1239 g, out of 1280.
Wilbert Robinson: caught 1316 g, out of 1371.
Deacon McGuire: caught 1611 g, out of 1781.
However, I'm wondering what happened to Ewing himself in 1887. Here are the number of games in which the following people caught for the (NL) club that season:
Williard Brown - 46. 21-year-old rookie.
Jim O'Rourke - 40. 36-year-old; one of only three seasons where he caught more than 15 games, and the only one where he played more games at catcher than at any other single position.
Pat Deasley - 24.
Pat Murphy - 17. 30-year-old making his first major league appearances.
Buck Ewing - 8.
Ewing played 19 games at 2nd and 51 at 3rd. This is in the middle of Ewing's prime years as a catcher, remember. Jim O'Rourke appeared in 38 games at 3rd that year, so it seems that Ewing could have had more appearances at catcher and O'Rourke could have had more appearances at third that season.
The 1887 season doesn't seem consistent with Ewing's being the greatest catcher ever. Does anyone know why Ewing was playing 3rd so often that year instead of catching?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
Games Total
Player as C Games % as C Debut
================================================== =
Deacon McGuire 1611 1781 90.5 1884-06-21
Wilbert Robinson 1316 1371 96.0 1886-04-19
Chief Zimmer 1239 1280 96.8 1884-07-18
Jack Clements 1073 1157 92.7 1884-04-22
Duke Farrell 1003 1563 64.2 1888-04-21
Charlie Bennett 954 1062 89.8 1878-05-01
Jack O'Connor 860 1451 59.3 1887-04-20
Pop Schriver 654 800 81.8 1886-04-29
Buck Ewing 636 1315 48.4 1880-09-09
Doggie Miller 636 1317 48.3 1884-05-01
Connie Mack 609 723 84.2 1886-09-11
Jocko Milligan 585 772 75.8 1884-05-01
King Kelly 583 1455 40.1 1878-05-01
Charlie Ganzel 578 786 73.5 1884-09-27
John Grim 578 706 81.9 1888-09-29
Farmer Vaughn 553 915 60.4 1886-10-07
Con Daily 550 630 87.3 1884-06-09
Jack Boyle 544 1086 50.1 1886-10-08
Bill Holbert 538 623 86.4 1876-09-05
Jack Ryan 527 616 85.6 1889-09-02