The Eclectic Lineup Thread

[The Old Ballgame]

Inspired by a small part of a baseball book I just finished reading, this is a challenge of our knowledge of baseball trivia and personalities. Leo Durocher said "Nice guys finish last.", but do they really? The first challenge is to compile two lineups, one of baseball's all-time ruthless or mean/disliked/unpopular players, and another of baseball's "nice guys". We need to fill out all nine starting positions, plus a pinch-hitter and a closer. Once we come to a consensus on both lineups, we'll move on to another set. We could call them the Durocher squad and the Clemente squad.

For the Durocher Squad, we could play Hal Chase at first, and play Ty Cobb in center (note this is no commentary on Cobb by playing him with Chase. Chase fits the mean/disliked/unpopular part of the bill, and Cobb fits the ruthless part.) Barry Bonds, fitting the unpopular requirement pretty easily, would play a good corner outfield, and Leo Durocher can play his major league position of shortstop, in addition to being the player/manager.

The Clemente Squad could obviously use Roberto Clemente in center, and put Lou Gehrig at first. Christy Matthewson would be a good starting pitcher for this team. Other than this, I'm pretty lost. Anyone have other suggestions, have better selections for the positions already mentioned, or just think I'm an idiot?

[Brian McKenna]

to start - all-time nice guys:
3b - brooks robinson
of - stan musial
ss - cal ripken

[The Dude]

Bad Guys 2nd Basemen: Rogers Hornsby

[leecemark]

--Not sure Clemente is the best "captain" of the nice guys team. He had plenty of detractors most of his career. It was only towards the end he started to be viewed as an icon (and even moreso posthumously,due to his tragic early death).
Bad Guys......................Good Guys
C: Thurman Minson........Roy Campanella
1B: Cap Anson...............Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby........Nap Lajoie
3B: Brooks Robinson.......Dick Allen
SS: Cal Ripken...............Leo Durcouher
LF: Barry Bonds.............Stan Musial
CF: Ty Cobb.................Willie Mays
RF: Joe Jackson............Al Kaline
SP: Carl Mays..........Christy Mathewson
RP: Goose Gossage.....Dan Quisenberry

[Mr. October]

All time "nice" team:

C-Roy Campanella
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Nap Lajoie
3B-Eddie Mathews
SS-Cal Ripken
LF-Willie Stargell
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Mel Ott

All time "mean" team
C-Ivan Rodriguez
1B-Dick Allen
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Wade Boggs
SS-Bill Dahlen? Hard to find one.
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Ty Cobb
RF-Pete Rose

I would take the "nice" team at catcher, first base, third, shortstop, and center field. I would take the "mean" team at second, left, and right.

[The Old Ballgame]

After one full lineup, one full position players lineup, and two votes for individual players, the voting stands as follows
Durocher Squad
1B-Cap Anson (1), Dick Allen (1)
2B-Rogers Hornsby (2)
3B-Brooks Robinson (1), Wade Boggs (1)
SS-Cal Ripken (1), Bill Dahlen (1)
C-Thurman Munson (1), Ivan Rodriguez (1)
OF-Barry Bonds (2), Ty Cobb (2), Joe Jackson (1), Pete Rose (1)
SP-Carl Mays (1)
RP-Dan Quisenberry (1)
Clemente Squad
1B-Lou Gehrig (2)
2B-Nap Lajoie (2)
3B-Brooks Robinson (1), Dick Allen (1), Eddie Matthews (1)
SS-Cal Ripken Jr. (2), Leo Durocher (1)
C-Roy Campanella (2)
OF-Stan Musial (2), Willie Mays (2), Al Kaline (1), Willie Stargell (1), Mel Ott (1),
SP-Christy Matthewson (1)
RP-Goose Gossage (1)

The most wide open race right now is for third outfielder on the nice guy team, with Al Kaline, Willie Stargell, and Mel Ott competing for that position. We really need people to vote for pitchers.

[The Old Ballgame]

I'm going to submit my lineup to add to the voting.

Nice Guys
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Jackie Robinson
SS-Cal Ripken Jr.
3B-Brooks Robinson
C-Roy Campanella
OF-Roberto Clemente
OF-Willie Stargell
OF-Mickey Mantle
Starter-Christy Matthewson
Reliever-Tug McGraw

Mean Guys
1B-Hal Chase
2B-Rogers Hornsby
SS-Leo Durocher
3B-Pete Rose (Played some games there)
C-Thurman Munson
OF-Ty Cobb
OF-Barry Bonds
OF-Darryl Strawberry
Starter-Carl Mays
Reliever-John Rocker

By my lineup, the mean guys have stars at two outfield positions, a good starter, and a hard-hitting third baseman. They've got a high-quality catcher, and a decent shortstop, but weaknesses at first base, and their reliever. The nice guys have their strength in the outfield, but have high quality players all throughout their lineup, weakening only in relief.

[ElHalo]

Bad Guys......................Good Guys

CF: Ty Cobb.................Willie Mays


Hate to do this, Mark, but I've got to call shenanigans. Everything I've ever heard about Willie Mays leads me to believe that he's one of the most unlikable pricks in the history of baseball, and a jerk of the highest magnitude... kind of like Barry Bonds, but with a mean streak. There's no WAY he belongs on a "good guys" team, and I'd arguably say he deserves the spot on the bad guys team more than Cobb does.

[ElHalo]

Bad guys:

C: Thurmon Munson
1B: Hal Chase
2B: Billy Martin
SS: Leo Durocher
3B: Alex Rodriguez
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Ty Cobb
DH: Rogers Hornsby
SP: Randy Johnson
RP: John Rocker


Good guys:

C: Ray Schalk
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nap Lajoie
SS: Derek Jeter
3B: Pie Traynor
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Ken Griffey, Jr.
RF: Al Kaline
DH: Manny Ramirez
SP: Christy Mathewson
RP: John Franco

[Eastvanmungo]

Nice

C - Roy Campanella
1B - Willie Stargell
2B - Charlie Gehringer
3B - Brooks Robinson
SS - Honus Wagner
OF - Stan Musial
OF - Dom DiMaggio
OF - Mel Ott
SP - Walter Johnson,
RP - Dan Quisenberry
PH - Paul Molitor


Not So Nice

C - Thurman Munson
1B - Cap Anson
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - John McGraw
SS - Swede Risberg
OF - Ty Cobb
OF - Pete Rose
OF - Ben Chapman
SP - Early Wynn
RP - John Rocker
PH - Dave Kingman

[Eastvanmungo]

Okay, here's some history...
I was very tempted to put Jake Powell (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/P/Powell_Jake.stm) on my "Not So Nice" team. A truly mean, racist, dishonest S.O.B. He gave a radio interview in 1938 that made John Rocker's comments seem fairly tame. I won't quote him here, but you can find them at the bottom of the page I linked to. BTW (related to the quote), despite claiming to be so, research has shown that he was never actually a cop. Fortunately.

[J W]

--Not sure Clemente is the best "captain" of the nice guys team. He had plenty of detractors most of his career. It was only towards the end he started to be viewed as an icon (and even moreso posthumously,due to his tragic early death).
Bad Guys......................Good Guys
C: Thurman Minson........Roy Campanella
1B: Cap Anson...............Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby........Nap Lajoie
3B: Brooks Robinson.......Dick Allen
SS: Cal Ripken...............Leo Durcouher
LF: Barry Bonds.............Stan Musial
CF: Ty Cobb.................Willie Mays
RF: Joe Jackson............Al Kaline
SP: Carl Mays..........Christy Mathewson
RP: Goose Gossage.....Dan Quisenberry

Sorry to edit and run, but I think these two positions have been reversed. Otherwise, I'd love to hear the argument for/against these four players. ;)

[538280]

Craig Wright actually once published an article in which he interviewed Dick Allen's former teammates and they all said he wasn't nearly as bad an influence as everyone says he is, and actually that he was a good influence. He is still recognized as a definite "bad guy" in the history of baseball though. I"m pretty sure Mark just made a mistake with those four. Really can't see how on earth Brooksie would belong on the "bad guys" team.

[wamby]

Okay, here's some history...
I was very tempted to put Jake Powell (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/P/Powell_Jake.stm) on my "Not So Nice" team. A truly mean, racist, dishonest S.O.B. He gave a radio interview in 1938 that made John Rocker's comments seem fairly tame. I won't quote him here, but you can find them at the bottom of the page I linked to. BTW (related to the quote), despite claiming to be so, research has shown that he was never actually a cop. Fortunately.

Since I don't believe that history should shy away from controversial subjects, I will quote Jake Powell. On a live radio broadcast he said he kept in shape in the off-season by 'beating up ******* and then throwing them in jail' (From baseball Library). I don't think that's an exact quote. however.




I also agree with Mr. Burgess. This type of thread has some place in BBF, but it is not history.

[wamby]

We just lost chs1979-2001, because History has become a forum for anything but serious historical discussion, and now the mod of Trivia refused this thread and sent it back.

One man can only do so much. Plus, few responded to real historical content which was recently posted. If this is what you want, don't cry when you get a lot more.

Old Ballgame: Don't take this as a putdown of your efforts. I was simply trying to showcase it where the most members who like this type of game go to find more of the same.

Bill

I've put together a few things but I don't really want to take the time to post them here because it will inevitably become a numbers argument. Besides the fact that most of the members with whom you can have a decent discussion with no longer post here.

[leecemark]

Sorry to edit and run, but I think these two positions have been reversed. Otherwise, I'd love to hear the argument for/against these four players. ;)

My bad. They should be reversed. Somebody else put Ripken on the all bad guy team too though. Following my lead or some skelatons in Cal's closet?

[Yankee Legend]

i'ld put Yogi Berra in the nice guys category

[The Old Ballgame]

Okay! I'm glad to see that this thread has gotten some response. I'm not really worried if its in history or trivia, and my opinion on that shouldn't matter anyway. On a few positions we seem to be reaching a consensus on who the starters should be, and once we fill out the lineups, we can compare the teams.

Mean Guys
Catcher-Thurman Munson (3), Ivan Rodriguez (1) Pudge got a lone vote here, and unless there's any dissent I think we can make Thurman the starter.
First Base-Cap Anson (2), Dick Allen (1), Hal Chase (1) This race is pretty wide open, with Cap in the lead right now.
Second Base-Rogers Hornsby (4) I think its pretty safe to say Rogers will probably be starting for this team.
3B-Dick Allen (1), Wade Boggs (1), Pete Rose (1), John McGraw (1) This is a close race, with four different candidates all running for it. As a side note, there are a few players in the running for more than one position. If a player gets a few votes at each position, but wins none, all his votes will be counted as pinch hitter votes.
SS-Bill Dahlen (1), Leo Durocher (2), Swede Risberg (1) Another close race.
OF-Barry Bonds (3), Ty Cobb (4), Joe Jackson (1), Pete Rose (2), Darryl Strawberry (1), Willie Mays (1), Ben Chapman (1), Jake Powell (1) We might as well pencil in Barry and the Georgia Peach unless anyone objects, but the third outfield spot is still up for grabs.
Starting Pitcher-Carl Mays (2), Early Wynn (1)
Reliever-Dan Quisenberry (1), John Rocker (2) We need more people to vote for pitchers.
Pinch Hitter-Dave Kingman (1) The top vote getter who doesn't win his position will be the pinch hitter. Right now, that's Dick Allen with 2, but Pete Rose could lose his outfield spot, or Dave could get a few more votes.
Nice Guys
Catcher-Roy Campanella (4), Yogi Berra (1) Looks like Campy's taking this one.
1B-Lou Gehrig (3), Willie Stargell (1), Gil Hodges (1)
2B-Nap Lajoie (2), Jackie Robinson (2), Charlie Gehringer (1)
3B-Brooks Robinson (4), Eddie Matthews (1)
SS-Cal Ripken (4), Honus Wagner (1)
OF-Stan Musial (3), Willie Mays (2), Willie Stargell (2), Mel Ott (2), Al Kaline (1), Roberto Clemente (1), Mickey Mantle (1), Dom Dimaggio (1)
SP-Christy Matthewson (2), Walter Johnson (1)
RP-Goose Gossage (1), Tug McGraw (1), Dan Quisenberry (1)
PH-Paul Molitor (1)

Just a few more votes and we're set to start penciling in the lineup.

[Yankwood]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but Roberto Clemente was always seen as a surley, whining, complaining type who was very tough for sportswriters and fans to approach. Revisionist history has made him a "nice guy" because of the tragic way in which he died.

[Eastvanmungo]

I'd like to hear the argument for Dan Quisenberry being on the Bad Guys team.

[flash143817]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but Roberto Clemente was always seen as a surley, whining, complaining type who was very tough for sportswriters and fans to approach. Revisionist history has made him a "nice guy" because of the tragic way in which he died.

I get the feeling the same thing is being done with Willie Mays. I always heard of him being very aloof and unapproachable.

[The Old Ballgame]

Well, there seems to be no dissent in finishing up the lineups, so I'll do it.

Bad Guys
Catcher-Thurman Munson
First Base-Cap Anson
Second Base-Rogers Hornsby
Third Base-Wade Boggs (Rose and Allen have votes elsewhere, and Mcgraw we can put as the manager. Boggs had nowhere else to go.)
Shortstop-Leo Durocher
CF-Ty Cobb
LF-Barry Bonds
RF-Pete Rose
Starter-Carl Mays
Reliever-John Rocker

Nice Guys
Catcher-Roy Campanella
First Base-Lou Gehrig
Second Base-Because I voted for Jackie Robinson, I'll break the tie and give it to Nap Lajoie.
Third Base-Brooks Robinson
Shortstop-Cal Ripken
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Stan Musial
LF-Willie Stargell (Stargell's 1B vote breaks the tie)
Starter-Christy Matthewson
Reliever-I'll break the tie for Dan Quissenberry.
Utility men
Bad Guys-Dick Allen (Allen received votes to play at first and third, winning neither position)
Good Guys-Jackie Robinson or Mel Ott? The first person to post their opinion breaks the tie.

[yankillaz]

Good Guys:

C- Roy Campanella
1b- Lou Gehrig
2b- Ryne Sandberg
3b- Brooks Robinson
ss- Cal Ripken Jr
lf- Stan Musial
cf- Kirby Puckett
rf- Al Kaline
dh- David Ortiz
sp- Christy Mathewson
rp- John Franco

Bad Guys:

C- AJ Pierzynski
1b- Kent Hrbek
2b- Wally Backman
3b- Wade Boggs
ss- Leo Durocher
lf- Barry Bonds
cf- Ty Cobb
rf- Pete Rose
dh- Dick Allen
sp- Bob Gibson
rp- John Rocker

[Gee Walker]

Bad Guys:

C: AJ Pierzynski
1B: Hal Chase
2B: Rogers Hornsby
SS: Vern Stephens
3B: Graig Nettles
OF: Albert Belle, Ben Chapman, Jake Powell
SP: Denny McLain, Jack Hamilton, Doc Gooden, Carl Mays
RP: Ed Farmer

MGR: Ozzie Guillen


Good Guys:
C: Ernie Whitt
1B: Boog Powell
2B: Bobby Richardson
SS: Ernie Banks
3B: Brooks Robinson
OF: Al Kaline, Kirby Puckett, Willie Stargell
SP: Orel Hershiser, David Cone, Fernando Valenzuela, Mickey Lolich
RP: Dan Quisenberry

MGR: Dick Howser

[iPod]

That's what he said, and he's only posted once in the last 4 days, and this kind of thread in History is what he was referring to.

Many good former guys no longer post in History. This is not what I call serious discussion. But it would fit in nicely in Trivia Forum. I'm not saying to disallow these types of threads, just that they go where they belong.

Bill

Well jeez, Bill, why don't you just make Chris the moderator? If Chris has decided he wants to go, let him go. If I were the moderator, there's no way in the world I'd change around the way my forum is run just because one member has decided to hold out on the rest of us.

[The Old Ballgame]

Before we move on to the next challenge, some notes on this one.

Nicest Position (Most Candidates)-Second Base
Easiest Choice (Most Votes)-Brooks Robinson at third on the nice guy team with 6. Honorable Mention goes to Cal Ripken on the Nice Guy team with five, and Rogers Hornsby on the Mean Guys with five as well.
Toughest Cut-Tug McGraw and Ernie Banks being left off the Nice Guys.
Torn Between Sides-Dan Quisenberry?! drew a vote for the Mean Guys.

Our next challenge is to make a lineup of the most educated baseball players and the least educated baseball players. Christy Matthewson will probably make another appearance, but there are a lot of choices here.

[west coast orange and black]

elhalo: Everything I've ever heard about Willie Mays leads me to believe that he's one of the most unlikable...

because you have not heard even one decent or good thing about mays, let me offer this, elhalo: mays more than once bought a brand new caddy for a teammate simply because that player did not own a car.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Funny thing about these lists. I'd be willing to bet the guys on the "good guy" list aren't nearly as nice or morally sound as you think, and the "bad guys" aren't nearly as horrible as they're viewed. Just the way it is with athletes in most cases imo.

[MyDogSparty]

elhalo: Everything I've ever heard about Willie Mays leads me to believe that he's one of the most unlikable...

because you have not heard even one decent or good thing about mays, let me offer this, elhalo: mays more than once bought a brand new caddy for a teammate simply because that player did not own a car.

Oh, so he had to buy his friends?:laugh Just kidding.

Here are some other opinions in this thread...http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=31749&highlight=nice+guys

and this thread... http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32158&highlight=Reggie+Jackson

[iPod]

elhalo: Everything I've ever heard about Willie Mays leads me to believe that he's one of the most unlikable...

because you have not heard even one decent or good thing about mays, let me offer this, elhalo: mays more than once bought a brand new caddy for a teammate simply because that player did not own a car.

If you've ever had to work with somebody on something and the other guy is basically bossing you around, or if you're in a conversation with him and he won't shut up about his ideas, but you just can't seem to be offended by it because he's so much more brilliant than you ever will be, that's sort of how I imagine it must have been like in the Giants clubhouse in the 1960s.

Here's a quote from Mays back in 1965:
"As captain of the Giants, I've had other players come up to me with the most intimate problems you can imagine - things they wouldn't even tell the manager, which is what captains are for - either for advice, or to relay word to the manager, or just for somebody to listen to. I could say, and truthfully, that these players have included white Southerners, except it never was that. It was just two people talking."

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Pretty sure Mays was in control of all the outfielders and infielders on defense. His knowledge and instincts were so highly respected, that he was looked to for defensive positioning from batter to batter. He had arm signals that were easily interpreted upon first glance. As a centerfielder I can say that positioning the corner outfielders is not a big deal, happens all the time and is easily done based on several factors. But positioning the infielders is unheard of. I might yell something out from time to time, like heads up for this, heads up for that; but if he was actually looked to for positioning from them, it either says a lot about how respected he was, or how little confidence they had in their own judgement. Probably a bit of both.

[sturg1dj]

what about Ted Williams on the mean side....he's one of my all-time favorites partly because he was such a mean SOB

[The Old Ballgame]

Now that the thread is in a new place, and I'm glad its not blocking off anything in another forum, I think its time to restart real quickly. We came to a consensus on nice guys/mean guys, and now I think we can try a new lineup-Most Educated Baseball Players against Least Educated Baseball Players. Bobby Brown would definitely be an addition to the smart guy team, and so would Christy Matthewson, I think. Least Educated is a little trickier-Dizzy Dean, perhaps?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yeah Christy was thought to be a saint, and by comparison to other ballplayers he really was. The only time I've heard of him not being a saint was on the road one time. Probably says a lot more about the fans of the time, who were very close to the players, very rowdy, crude, and seemed to think it their right to abuse famous players for their play; but Christy one time hit a lemonade boy in the mouth, splitting his lip because of his constant and harsh comments about a Giant teammate.

[rugbyfreak]

I've read though all the posts, and there are some great calls. Here are two teams, not my all-timers, but consisting of equally deserving guys who have been snubbed, as yet:

Duocher:

P--"Happy Jack" Chesbro, Guy Bush, Burleigh Grimes
C--Clint Courtney--my best pull: Not a well-known, but read any '50s books--he was the meanest snake in ML history. recuited by Hornsby--'nuff said?
1B--Chick Gandill: Suprised you guys didn't name the 1919 ringleader himself
2B--Johnny Evers: Didn't call him "The Crab" for nothing.
SS--Larry Bowa: A personal tab here
3B--Bill Madlock: Everybody can't be wrong.
OF--Dixie Walker: He started the Bums' anti-Jackie petition; reggie Jackson; Bobby Bonds: Gotta be some reason this huge talent was moved so much.

Clemente:

P--Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax: Hey, very often nice guys finish first.
C--Manny Sanguillen: Always smilin'
1B--Norm Cash: One of the game's legendary clowns, and a helluva player.
2B--Willie randolph: Anyone disagree?
SS--Honus Wagner: I'm amazed no one tabbed him!
3B--Joe Torre: I love him, what can I say?
OF--Dale Murphy: He DEFINES good guy; Tim raines: Once he got off the rock, he was rock-solid; Bernie Williams: They do not come any nicer.

[rugbyfreak]

Our moderators may be right in scolding us that this "good guy/bad guy" HOF is a bit frivolous, and they can place it in whatever forum they like, but I say a little fluff here and there is good for the soul. We work hard; we've earned a little recess. I have some random notes:

Good calls by you guys:

--I think we agreed that naming the good guy team after Clemente was a bit silly. We have heard roberto called many things, including compassionate, even heroic, if you like, but I don't think we ever heard "nice guy", at least not in the Dale Murphy sense. I head prickly a lot, and worse. Doesn't mean he belongs on Leo's team, though, not by a long shot.

--Great call in calling out crackerhead pricks Chapman and Powell (ashamed to admit they were both Yankees). They made their dubious place in history, and they should never be allowed to live it down, simply because they never seemed interested in doing so. (Contrast with: Billy Hitchcock, Solly Hemus.)

Some of you may choose to give them that "product of their times" free pass; I do not. I figure, changing times notwithstanding, their was never a time in history when a cool Saturday night out featured cracking Negro skulls with a bat and then running and hiding. To this list I added Dixie Walker, who decided that not having Jackie's back was more important to him than being a good Dodger. Always remember: There were countless MLers in the early days who viewed Jackie as the anti-Christ--and for having these thoughts I DO give them the nurture pass--but who had at least the decency to shut up and take one for the team.

Which reminds me, another glaring ommission on the good guy team: SS--Pee Wee reese, because he decided that having Jackie's back was more important than being from Kentucky. In fact, he viewed it as the the most important thing he had ever done in his life. A HOF captain.

--It probably hurts us to face it, but some of you were forthright enough to point out that the Say Hey Kid image, that vision of joyful, boyish brilliance, was mostly fluff. Much of the time, he was a class-A hump, especially when things did not go his way, and we must admit, more than any other Giant, the move to SF hurt his fan-appeciation meter, for whatever reasons. (Maybe the Bay Area crowd didn't buy his prickly act like NY did, nor the Say Hey act, I don't know.) Nothing evil about Willie--more like garden-variety surliness, and again, does not warrant him a place on The Lip's All-Hump squad.

--Eerily, the man to whom Mays was most often compared, The Mick, suffered from the same dual image. Mick's conduct with his young fans was bizzarely bi-polar, one day including hours of patient autograph-signing, and other times, 8-year-old boys were told to go f--ck themselves by their idol. But you never heard anything of the kind from his teammates. To a man, they have all said he had a rare gift for playing down his superstardom in the clubhouse, to the point of telling tales of his own buffoonish antics, sitting for hours after a game in the locker room, shooting the breeze with anyone who was there (he never had anywhere to be--Merlyn never spent one season up in NY), and taking the 25th man on the bench out for a big night, making sure to hit the hot spots so the kid would be sure to be seen with the great Mickey Mantle. Finally, they saw every day of his career the pain and trouble he went through just to take the field, and they watched with silent awe.

--Two more split personalities: ripken and Gossage. Saw them on both teams. Some have hung Cal for making the streak more important than the team, and I heard he cheated on his wife, but that's all I know. Goose? I saw him firsthand with the Yanks, and he was quite menacing on the mound. Exactly what I want from my closer.

--Can never agree with Dick Allen being on any bad guy team, though the Phils would love us to believe he was incorrigible. What he was was an immensely proud black man who played in a backwards, crackerhead environment, his team a perfect reflection of its city. OK, Gene Mauch was not Ben Chapman, but I don't read that he went out of his way to make his finest player more comfortable in a difficult situation, and eventually it led to "richie" being run out of town.

--Joe Jackson. OK, he was one of the Eight Men Out, and that remains baseball's highest notoreity. I view him as a gullible, country bumpkin who got jammed up by slicker types around him, and before he knew it, there was no way out. I place some credence in the story that he tried to tell Comiskey beforehand, and Commy wanted nothing to do with it. Want an owner of your miserable-human team? Look no further.

--Speaking of those Sox, you guys missed the boat on Chick Gandill for the Goofus team. Chick is easily one the most odious men ever to suit up, going toe-to-toe with his contemporary Chase for top honors. Not only the 1919 ringleader, but a Svengali who took down decent men like Buck Weaver, Joe Jackson, Claude Williams and Fred McMullin. We can't even say he honestly believed they would get away with it; he retired before the '20 season began, leaving his "friends" to face the heat he knew was coming.

--For the Gallant team, don't know how all of you could miss Dale Murphy. He was so squeaky clean, you couldn't make him up.

That's all I have. Thanks for listening!

freak