Name Your Top Negro League players

[jalbright]

I'd like to run an election of who we think the top Negro League Players were. I'll take as many as ten choices, and award 12-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 for your picks. In order to exclude Mays, Aaron, Banks, Minoso, Doby and Jackie but not Monte Irvin or Campanella. I'm asking for a minimum of five years in blackball, whether it be in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Mexico, or the US before 1951, but accomplishments outside that era can be considered. Voting will end July 16, 2006 at midnight EDT.

[jalbright]

My ballot:

1. Oscar Charleston
2. Satchel Paige
3. Turkey Stearnes
4. Josh Gibson
5. Smokey Joe Williams
6. Pop Lloyd
7. Ray Dandridge
8. Bullet Joe Rogan
9. Martin Dihigo
10. Cristobal Torriente

[CanadianKid]

1. Josh Gibson
2. Satchel Paige
3. Oscar Charleston
4. James "Cool Papa" Bell
5. Monte Irvin
6. Larry Doby
7. Pop Lloyd
8. Smokey Joe Williams
9. Walter "Buck" Leonard
10. William Foster

[Blackout]

1-Josh Gibson
2-Pop Lloyd
3-Satchel Paige
4-Oscar Charleston
5-Buck Leonard
6-Smokey Joe Williams
7-Cristobal Torrienti
8-Cool Papa Bell
9-Bullet Joe Rogan
10-Jose Mendez

just missed it: luis santop, spot poles, martin dihigo, cannonball redding, chino smith (too bad he died so young)


pitchers count i assume

[jalbright]

pitchers count i assume

Absolutely!

[julusnc]

Oscar Charleston
Josh Gibson
John Henry Lloyd
Satchel Paige
Smokey Joe Williams
Rube Foster
Turkey Stearnes
William Foster
Buck Leonard
Martin Dihigo

[538280]

1.Oscar Charleston
2.Josh Gibson
3.Satchel Paige
4.Pop Lloyd
5.Christobal Torriente
6.Turkey Stearnes
7.Smokey Joe Williams
8.Buck Leonard
9.Martin Dihigo
10.Ray Dandridge

[Bill Burgess]

My Top Negro League Players:

1. Oscar Charleston
2. John Henry "Pop" Lloyd
3. Joshua "Josh" Gibson
4. Clarence Raleigh James "Biz" Mackay
5. Satchel Paige
6. Joe Williams
7. Louis "Santop" Loftin
8. Cristobal Carlos Torriente
9. Martin Dihigo (was actually a multi-position player who pitched. Impossible to categorize cleanly.)
10. Pete Hill
-------------------------------------
Honorable Mentions:

11. Willie Wells
12. John Beckwith
13. "Cool Papa" Bell
14. Joe Rogan
15. Bruce Petway
16. Monte Irvin
17. "Buck" Leonard
18. "Spot" Poles
19. Ray Dandridge
20. Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
21. "Mule" Suttles
22. "Turkey" Stearns
23. "Bingo" DeMoss
24. Ben Taylor
25. Oliver Marcelle
26. Newt Allen
27. Judy Johnson
28. Jud Wilson
29. Dave Malarcher
30. Dick Lundy

[Blackout]

bill, why is Buck Leonard so low? he's easily top 10 worthy, especially on a list without pitchers

[jalbright]

Anybody else want to take a crack at this one? I'll extend voting one day, through the end of Sunday, July 16.

[OOSL]

My top 10 players

1. Oscar Charleston
2. Josh Gibson
3. Satchel Paige
4. Turkey Stearnes
5. Pop Lloyd
6. Willie Foster
7. Martin Dihigo
8. Cristobal Torriente
9. Buck Leonard
10. Smokey Joe Williams

[Brent]

1. Josh Gibson - A catcher who could hit like Lou Gehrig.
2. Oscar Charleston - Did everything well - hit for average, for power, ran the bases, great fielder.
3. Cyclone Joe Williams - Many seasons of pitching excellence.
4. John Henry Lloyd - Great hitter, great shortstop.
5. Turkey Stearnes - See Oscar Charleston comment.
6. Roy Campanella - I don't see him on ballots, but from what it says at the top of the thread I think he's eligible. Great hitter and a great defensive catcher (though mostly in the majors).
7. Martin Dihigo - Underappreciated. For the first two-thirds of his career he was a great power hitter; for the last two-thirds he was a great pitcher. During the middle third, when he was both, he was a wonder to behold, leading his leagues in both all the pitching and all the hitting categories.
8. Satchel Paige - A bit overrated perhaps, but for seven or eight years before his injury he was the greatest pitcher in baseball. And when he came back, he pitched forever.
9. Grant (Home Run) Johnson - Tremendous hitter and shortstop. The best eligible player not in the HoF. The best Negro League player before Lloyd-- might have been his equal.
10. Buck Leonard - A consistently great player for a long time.

[jalbright]

6. Roy Campanella - I don't see him on ballots, but from what it says at the top of the thread I think he's eligible. Great hitter and a great defensive catcher (though mostly in the majors).

I think the relevant parts of the "rules" are as follows:
I'd like to run an election of who we think the top Negro League Players were. .... In order to exclude Mays, Aaron, Banks, Minoso and Jackie but not Monte Irvin or Campanella. I'm asking for a minimum of five years in blackball, whether it be in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Mexico, or the US before 1951, but accomplishments outside that era can be considered.

That means Campy is someone you can vote for , but it seems that with him and Irvin, people have put more emphasis on "Negro Leagues", which is their right.

Jim Albright

[leecemark]

1) Oscar Charleston
2) Satchel Paige
3) Josh Gibson
4) Pop Lloyd
5) Turkey Stearnes
6) Smokey Joe Williams
---big drop off?
7) Luis Santop
8) Christobal Torriente
9) Willie Wells
10) Buck Leonard
HM (not in order); John Beckwith, Jud Wilson, Dobie Moore, Pete Hill, Frank Grant, Martin Dihigo, Ray Brown, Mule Suttles, Cool Papa Bell, Bill Monroe, Biz Mackey and Ray Dandridge. Really not comfortable mixing pitchers and position players so only one (the unrated Brown) mad emy honorable mention list, although some other may have been better than some of the players listed here.
--Campanella is consider mostly a major leaguer and Monte Irvin I'm not sure what to do with. He should at least get an HM I guess.

[baseballPAP]

1-Josh Gibson
2-Oscar Charleston
3-Satchel Paige
4-Smoky Joe Williams
5-Pop Lloyd
6-Martin DiHigo
7-Cool Papa Bell
8-Cristobal Torriente
9-Buck Leonard
10-Turkey Stearns

Close.....John Beckwith, Rube Foster, Cannonball Redding, Will Jackman, Willie Wells, Mule Suttles, Biz Mackey and a bunch of other guys....the second tier starts at about #9 and has 15-20 players who are very tough for me to seperate.

[jalbright]

I'll report the top eleven, all of whom received at least ten points in my final count (which is a little different than most of you would get, as one voter included Larry Doby, who does not meet the criteria. I tried PM'ing him when I belatedly realized the problem without response, so Doby is out and the candidates below him on that ballot moved up one spot.) All the candidates with 10 or more points were supported by at least three voters, and none of the ones with less were supported by more than two voters. Without further ado, here's the results of the voting:

Player......................Points (1st place votes)
Oscar Charleston..............96 (6)
Josh Gibson.....................85 (4)
Satchel Paige..................67
Pop Lloyd.......................63
Smokey Joe Williams.........44
Turkey Stearnes..............36
Cristobal Torriente...........20
Buck Leonard..................18
Martin Dihigo...................15
Cool Papa Bell..................14
Bill Foster........................10

I think the results are rather reasonable. Thanks to all ten voters who participated.

Jim Albright

[Legacy]

Don't know how current this site is, but was scouting the net and found it. My grandfather is David Showboat Thomas. Many know that emphezema caused him to leave the game. Many do not know, and I have the proof, that it was my grandfather who was first to go to the majors' for training, but had to quit because of his illness. 'This' is what resulted in his not being the first afro-american to "play" in a major league game (opening the way for Robinson), but he was indeed the first afro-american to be "sent to" the majors. A common blog around the web is that this was some racial publicity stunt. Photos and newsclippings show otherwise. His health, developing emphezema during training, was his nemesis.

He was often called the Greatest First Baseman of All Time, and was given the name Showboat by a "white" journalist (a great recognition of that time). He was also known to be a good manager, getting top dollar for his players. He ha smy vote for being one of the Top 10, and receive Hall of Fame recognition.

[The Kid]

1.Oscar Charleston
2.Josh Gibson
3.Satchel Paige
4.Pop Lloyd
5.Christobal Torriente
6.Turkey Stearnes
7.Smokey Joe Williams
8.Buck Leonard
9.Martin Dihigo
10.Ray Dandridge

I agree completely.

[WJackman]

Latest figures for Cannonball Bill Jackman.

336 recovered pitching boxscores.

199 wins and 85 losses.

22-3 record when opposing hurler had big league time.

48 shutouts and 78 games with 10 or more strikeouts.

The Boston Globe announced in May of 1949 that Jackman had just pitched in his 1,200th career game. Since he pitched through the 1953 season, an estimate of 1,350 games seems reasonable. So let's multiple his numbers by four.

800 wins, 200 shutouts and 250 games with 10 or more strikeouts. So far 40 homers have also been recovered. So likely he hit 120 career homers.

So how can Jackman be omitted from any list of top African-American players?

Competition factor? He played with and against the top major, minor and Negro League players that Paige or Joe Williams did. Literally hundreds and hundreds.

There were plenty of top Negro League players and teams operating and barnstorming about New England in Jackman's day. For some reason, it has just remained untapped as anyone's research project.

No discussion of baseball's top hurlers will be complete without Jackman's inclusion.

[jalbright]

No discussion of baseball's top hurlers will be complete without Jackman's inclusion.
Perhaps, when you get to publish who those stats were accumulated against, I'll agree with you. Until I get to see more information, I intend to reserve judgment. Sorry.

Jim Albright

[WJackman]

Jim,

No problem. Do you mind throwing out some stats on Paige and Williams for me?

[jalbright]

See posts 55 and 62 on this page http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=637522#post637522 for the best I've got on those two.

Jackman may well have accumulated the stats you cite against similar caliber opposition. If I am convinced of that, I can buy your assertion. But until I have better evidence to make that evaluation, I have to keep in mind that often barnstorming opposition wasn't generally as high a caliber as the Negro Leagues. Jackman by being a draw may have played against better opponents--but given what I know, I can't be sure of that. It's easier to be cautious given what I know and when shown convincing proof of the quality of Jackman's opposition to come around to your point of view than to embrace your point of view on faith and then be disappointed with the actual evidence and backtrack. I'm simply not willing to make such a leap of faith.

Jim Albright

[WJackman]

So you have never done any actual compilation or review of either Williams of Paige on your own and are just relying on secondary sources?

Shades of Glory has Paige at 103-61 in the offical Negro Leagues but that is spread out over 20 years. So he averaged about five wins a season. He did go 28-31 in the majors but had he been born in 1897 rather than 1906 he would have won zero.

So the only double digit win seasons we have for Paige are:

12-5 in 1928
10-9 in 1929
10-5 in 1930
10-4 in 1932
14-2 in 1934
12-10 in 1952

Certainly these numbers in themselves mean little in the way of defining greatness. So the rest of his career work was against whom?

And Williams' career Negro League record, again per Shades of Glory, is just 30 wins and 33 losses. So the rest of his career was against whom?

[jalbright]

So you have never done any actual compilation or review of either Williams of Paige on your own and are just relying on secondary sources?
Yes. But I've had the chance to review their work in detail, which at this point I cannot say for your work. Also, I can review several sources about these other men, and the information on Jackman is limited to you. Forgive me, but when I have to rely on one and only one source, I tend to want to examine what I am being told quite carefully. I am open to adopting your position on Jackman, but the comparatively little I've been provided over the internet isn't enough for me. I look forward to seeing your work published and giving it full consideration then.

Jim Albright

[WJackman]

An article (already completed) on Jackman is tentatively scheduled for next summer. With the two additionaol games just added to the data base his record will appear at 200-86. I think the 200 win mark gives it some signficance though the gold standard of the project will be to document 500.