Ok Ground Rule Question.

[ESPNFan]

In tonights Sox Loss to the Twins it was 4 - 0 Twin with Ortiz at the plate. He absolutely CRUSHES a ball to right feild. I'm waiting for the home run trot etc... because just the way the ball left the bat you knew it was gone with that metrodome right feild. Al of a sudden there is this confusion and then the ball riccochets back into the outfeild. Appartently it hit the speakers just under the roof in deep right and bounced back onto the field.

And its rulled a single! not only that but if someone caught it ti would have been an out!?!?!?:crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy

Now I was watching the NESN feed and the Red Sox announcers but Jerry Remy the color guy is not prone to exaggeration or hyperbole, in support of the Sox or not. He said the Ball was headed for at the very least the upper deck and he thought it might have a shot at hitting the murals draped on the back wall of the stadium, thats how much this ball was crushed.

My question is how can there be ground rules that are that punitive to hitters when a batted bal has to be crushed to get there and second how can Tampa Bay's stadium, have a catwalk that seems to be easier to hit, be a home run?

Its not sour grapes here as the HR wouldn't have mattered but what goes into determining a parks ground rules? I mean its seems incredible to me that a ball hit that far could still be an out.

[VTSoxFan]

Neither you nor Jerry Remy were exaggerating; Torii Hunter said that that ball was headed for the giant poster of Kirby Puckett.

There's a story in today's Boston Globe that tells of a "sure" homer that clanked off a speaker and was caught by the second baseman -- possibly the only time in history a 2Bman robbed a guy of a homer.

This Speaker Silences Ortiz (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/16/this_speaker_silences_ortiz)

The Metrodome is a prime example of why baseball should never, ever, ever be played indoors.

[Mattingly]

A ground rule double, from what I've known, is one in which it bounces on the field in fair territory, then bounces into the stands. I presume that fan interference may change this, but if deflecting off a fielder's glove (or the top of Jose Canseco's head, as in an infamous HR), it would still apply.

I'm not sure how that differs from stadium to stadium, but if the ball lands on the field, I can't see that technically being a GRD.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/umpires/ground_rules.jsp
Minnesota Twins - Metrodome

Foul poles are in fair territory. Ball hitting roof or speakers in fair territory: if caught by fielder, batter is out and fielders advance at their own risk.
Ball hitting roof or speakers in fair territory shall be judged fair or foul in relation to where it hits the ground or is touched by a fielder.
Any ball that hits the speaker or roof in foul territory is a foul ball; if, however, the ball is caught by fielder, the batter is out and base runners advance at their own risk.
A ball that hits speaker in foul territory and ricochets back into fair territory is still a foul ball; if the ball is caught by fielder, the batter is out and base runners advance at their own risk.

Dimensions:
Left-field line: 343 feet
Left-center: 385 feet
Center field: 408 feet
Right-center: 367 feet
Right-field line: 327 feet
Fence 7 feet
Fence (RF) 23 feet

[Solair Wright]

In some stadiums, they have a short OF wall, and if it bounces with greater velocity off the ground and into the OF wall, it's a ground-rule double. Some stadiums are easier to do that in than others. Miller Park seems to be pretty easy to do that in, but in Fenway Park, it's pretty hard to do it because it HAS to do as what I said earlier.

[Mattingly]

In some stadiums, they have a short OF wall, and if it bounces with greater velocity off the ground and into the OF wall, it's a ground-rule double. Some stadiums are easier to do that in than others. Miller Park seems to be pretty easy to do that in, but in Fenway Park, it's pretty hard to do it because it HAS to do as what I said earlier.
By short, you mean height, rather than distance from home plate, correct?

Also, I hadn't even realized this was possible (physically, anyway) at Fenway. No way anybody's bouncing one over that Monster in LF. In CF, that place is deep like nobody's business, and in RF, the wall is low, but that baby's pretty far back.

[Alibi Ike]

I remember something similar happening to Darryl Strawberry in the late 80's in Monstreal. He hit a shot that was still going up as it hit the rim of of the hole in the roof. Can't remember the outcome though.

[Mattingly]

Silly question, of the "had to ask" variety:

What would happen if the ball somehow got stuck on something up there? If it simple settled on something and didn't come down, what would they do? I'm sure it would never happen in a billion years or two (the Yanks should have at least 27 rings by then), but couldn't help myself. :p

[otis89]

The flag pole at Minute Maid in Houston is in play. I think the Cubs announcers during a game there said that Richie Sexson hit a ball about 480 feet that bounced off the pole and in play. He hit a ball 480 feet and didn't get a homer.

[trosmok]

....
The Metrodome is a prime example of why baseball should never, ever, ever be played indoors.

I second that, and call for a voice vote on the motion to outlaw indoor ballparks. All in favor.....

Some people believe that domes and retractable roofs are a requirement in northern climes, as well as as desert areas, but I say hogwash. I played in the Twin Cities in early April in my college days, and while brutally cold, it wasn't like just one team was dealing with it. I also played in August in Puerto Rico, and stifling doesn't begin to describe the weather conditions, but both teams were still playing and the fans still kept coming. I don't feel as old as my years, (except my feet sometimes), but I remember when the movie houses were among the few places with that new-fangled air conditioning thing. Now everywhere seems to have climate controlled air that just can't seem to duplicate the healthiness of fresh air in the great outdoors.:cool:

[ESPNFan]

Silly question, of the "had to ask" variety:

What would happen if the ball somehow got stuck on something up there? If it simple settled on something and didn't come down, what would they do? I'm sure it would never happen in a billion years or two (the Yanks should have at least 27 rings by then), but couldn't help myself. :p

Actually It happened the first night. A ball was hit into foul territory that looked like it could have been caught and all of a sudden it never came down.

Seriously I have played wiffleball in backyards with better layouts.

[W_Marone]

The roof is considered in the field of play, like an umpire or fielder,etc. so if it hit off the roof and they caught it, he would have been out. Thats the problem with indoor baseball stadiums, the dang roof, I had just turned it on when it happened to, I thought it was gone.

[Red Sox Rule]

I second that, and call for a voice vote on the motion to outlaw indoor ballparks. All in favor.....

i'll agree with that

[Astro]

The ground rules differ from stadium to stadium...

At Wrigley Field if the balls goes into the ivy and the outfielder does not attempt to retreive it, instead turns around and tells the ump, it is a double

If the player attempts to retreive it the ball is in play and is played like a normal ball... except the outfielder must find it in the ivy

This will happen every few times a year, usually with young outfielders who are not aware of the ground rule

[Mattingly]

Actually It happened the first night. A ball was hit into foul territory that looked like it could have been caught and all of a sudden it never came down.

Seriously I have played wiffleball in backyards with better layouts.
Oh gawsh, now my nightmare that something like this could actually happen. I don't even think that the mighty light-, heat- and life-giving sun itself existed a billion years ago, but this happened just the other day. I'll have to go for a trillion (or even a gazillion) the next time. :p

Just think, World Series 2006, Game 7, bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, 3-2 count, base runners on 2B and 3B. And the pitch ...

BOY DOES HE HIT IT! It is hit so deep, it'll land into the next state! The ballgame is ... where's the ball?

Anyway, stuff like that is of my nightmares. I mean, what if in a playoff game or late into a game that decides whether or not a team makes the playoffs, a ball gets stuck up there?

To me, they should bring in a fire truck, extend the ladder all the way up there, shake the thing loose and see where it lands. If by then the hitter hasn't slid home (like he'd need to), then he'd better learn to hustle. :D

[Mattingly]

The ground rules differ from stadium to stadium...

At Wrigley Field if the balls goes into the ivy and the outfielder does not attempt to retreive it, instead turns around and tells the ump, it is a double

If the player attempts to retreive it the ball is in play and is played like a normal ball... except the outfielder must find it in the ivy

This will happen every few times a year, usually with young outfielders who are not aware of the ground rule
So basically, if someone is aware of the rule (likely a Cubs or ex-Cubs player), then if there's a guy on 1B, he'd be advised to just tell the ump, to avoid the baserunner scoring from 1B while the fielder looks forever for the ball?
i'll agree with that
Thirded. Oh, and three cheers for Sir Tros! :p ;) :D

[Astro]

So basically, if someone is aware of the rule (likely a Cubs or ex-Cubs player), then if there's a guy on 1B, he'd be advised to just tell the ump, to avoid the baserunner scoring from 1B while the fielder looks forever for the ball?

Thirded. Oh, and three cheers for Sir Tros! :p ;) :D
The player has to signal that the ball is trapped in the ivy, so the 1st baseman could not tell the ump because he would not know if the ball was indeed stuck in the ivy... the outfielder needs to turn around and tell the ump right away its stuck in the ivy, or attempt to find it while the baserunnners circle the bases

The last time I remember seeing it on TV was a game on WGN where then Cubs outfielder Moises Alou searched for the ball and could not find it, and it resulted in an inside the park homerun

[otis89]

The last time I remember seeing it on TV was a game on WGN where then Cubs outfielder Moises Alou searched for the ball and could not find it, and it resulted in an inside the park homerun

He couldn't find the ball because the ball wasn't in the ivy. It was sitting just behind him a few inches from the ivy.

[ESPNFan]

Oh gawsh, now my nightmare that something like this could actually happen. I don't even think that the mighty light-, heat- and life-giving sun itself existed a billion years ago, but this happened just the other day. I'll have to go for a trillion (or even a gazillion) the next time. :p

Just think, World Series 2006, Game 7, bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, 3-2 count, base runners on 2B and 3B. And the pitch ...

BOY DOES HE HIT IT! It is hit so deep, it'll land into the next state! The ballgame is ... where's the ball?

Anyway, stuff like that is of my nightmares. I mean, what if in a playoff game or late into a game that decides whether or not a team makes the playoffs, a ball gets stuck up there?

To me, they should bring in a fire truck, extend the ladder all the way up there, shake the thing loose and see where it lands. If by then the hitter hasn't slid home (like he'd need to), then he'd better learn to hustle. :D


Could you imagine If Pucketts game winning HR in the 1991 WS actually hit a speaker and fell into Ron Gants mitt for an out?

That is mindboggling.

[bluezebra]

A ground rule double, from what I've known, is one in which it bounces on the field in fair territory, then bounces into the stands. I presume that fan interference may change this, but if deflecting off a fielder's glove (or the top of Jose Canseco's head, as in an infamous HR), it would still apply.

I'm not sure how that differs from stadium to stadium, but if the ball lands on the field, I can't see that technically being a GRD.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/umpires/ground_rules.jsp
Minnesota Twins - Metrodome

Foul poles are in fair territory. Ball hitting roof or speakers in fair territory: if caught by fielder, batter is out and fielders advance at their own risk.
Ball hitting roof or speakers in fair territory shall be judged fair or foul in relation to where it hits the ground or is touched by a fielder.
Any ball that hits the speaker or roof in foul territory is a foul ball; if, however, the ball is caught by fielder, the batter is out and base runners advance at their own risk.
A ball that hits speaker in foul territory and ricochets back into fair territory is still a foul ball; if the ball is caught by fielder, the batter is out and base runners advance at their own risk.

Dimensions:
Left-field line: 343 feet
Left-center: 385 feet
Center field: 408 feet
Right-center: 367 feet
Right-field line: 327 feet
Fence 7 feet
Fence (RF) 23 feet

"A ground rule double, from what I've known, is one in which it bounces on the field in fair territory, then bounces into the stands."

No, it's a "Book Rule Double". A Ground Rule is something that is particular to a field. A fair ball that bounces into the stands is a double in EVERY ball park.

Bob

[Mattingly]

"A ground rule double, from what I've known, is one in which it bounces on the field in fair territory, then bounces into the stands."

No, it's a "Book Rule Double". A Ground Rule is something that is particular to a field. A fair ball that bounces into the stands is a double in EVERY ball park.

Bob
I've never heard of a "Book Rule Double". The ball obviously has to bounce first in fair territory, then even if it bounces foul and into the stands, it's still considered a double, but the 1B runner (if any) is stuck at 3B. All other runner(s) score.

So what I've just described in the last paragraph, you're saying is always in every single field, but what the announcers have been calling ground rule doubles is actually a book rule double?

[Mattingly]

Could you imagine If Pucketts game winning HR in the 1991 WS actually hit a speaker and fell into Ron Gants mitt for an out?

That is mindboggling.
I say that the Twins invest in curved stuff up there, so that way, there are no flat surfaces for a ball to be snagged upon. Had that happened way back then, the roof would've been torn apart that same night, I tell ya. The demo crew would've consisted of whoever was there that night. :p

I'm already not too crazy about a ball getting stuck up there entirely, but with the semispherical shape of these indoor stadiums' domes, when the ball is near the fence, that's where the down is already on its downward trend. Meanwhile, the ball is still likely travelling uphill or merely beginning its hi-speed downward spiral.

Unless the FAA (http://faa.gov/) says that there's an airport nearby or there's no reason for it, I would think that the dome could be higher or arch differently. Of course, construction and design costs would be affected.

Heck, why don't we just ban domed stadiums? If the crowd complains about the heat, then hose 'em down between innings. :D (even Bill Veeck may like that one)

[rockin500]

I've never heard of a "Book Rule Double". The ball obviously has to bounce first in fair territory, then even if it bounces foul and into the stands, it's still considered a double, but the 1B runner (if any) is stuck at 3B. All other runner(s) score.

So what I've just described in the last paragraph, you're saying is always in every single field, but what the announcers have been calling ground rule doubles is actually a book rule double?
the correct definition is the book rule, since its not a ground rule, per se. you hear jon miller and a couple other ESPN guys say that, but other than that, you dont hear it used much. just easier to use ground rule.

bluezebra is right though. ;)

[Mattingly]

the correct definition is the book rule, since its not a ground rule, per se. you hear jon miller and a couple other ESPN guys say that, but other than that, you dont hear it used much. just easier to use ground rule.

bluezebra is right though. ;)
Thanks. Shows how little one can know about the game until they come here. :D (as if I'd even be a good example of that). ;)

[SoxSon]

I say that the Twins invest in curved stuff up there, so that way, there are no flat surfaces for a ball to be snagged upon.

Well, they won't have to worry about it for much longer anyway, right?:

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/min/ballpark/index.jsp

[Mattingly]

Well, they won't have to worry about it for much longer anyway, right?:

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/min/ballpark/index.jsp
When my sillier comments get serious replies, I sometimes have to wonder. Could it be a Red Sox conspiracy between yourself and ESPNFan? :D ;) :p

Anyway, that new thing doesn't have a dome. Ortiz will only have to watch for low-flying airplanes from now on. If he gets a really good whack at it, we'll see what the rules are if he smashes in the windshield of the Goodyear or Fuji Blimp! :crazy



tv announcer: i can't believe ... what i just saw

[Astro]

Could you imagine If Pucketts game winning HR in the 1991 WS actually hit a speaker and fell into Ron Gants mitt for an out?

That is mindboggling.
I'm sure if that had happened, they would have changed the ground rules the following season

[bluezebra]

I've never heard of a "Book Rule Double". The ball obviously has to bounce first in fair territory, then even if it bounces foul and into the stands, it's still considered a double, but the 1B runner (if any) is stuck at 3B. All other runner(s) score.

So what I've just described in the last paragraph, you're saying is always in every single field, but what the announcers have been calling ground rule doubles is actually a book rule double?

Correcto Mundo. It's in ALL the rule books. A "ground rule" is for a particular obstruction at a ball park, such as a ball getting trapped under a tarp. Or, as I mentioned earlier, stuck in the ivy at Wrigley Field.

Some announcers refer to a "Book Rule Double", but most call it a "Ground Rule" double. Just like EVERY announcer using ther term, "Foul tip", on any sharply foul ball that goes past the catcher. Umpires (at least those who read the rule book(s) know it's a "Book Rule Double".

Bob

[Rounding Home]

With the Wrigley Field ivy, the ump has to go out and tell whether or not the ball is actually in the vines or if the ball is in-play. I've heard stories from Cubs announcers about players who signal the ball's in the ivy, realize the ump can see it and then casually hit the ball with their feet to push it back in the vines.

Then there's the players who spend more time in the vines then a gardener and turn a double into a home run because they can't find the ball and aren't aware of the rule.