Slow Pitch Swing Vs. Baseball/FP Swing

[hellborn]

Just curious if some of the high level swing doctors here could add some comments about how swing mechanics should be adjusted for slow pitch play. Given the huge extra amount of time available and the high arc of the pitch, what do you recommend for an ideal swing? Massive uppercut? Take a few steps into the pitch when that's allowed?
This may not be totally appropriate for BASEBALL Fever, but I hope that it isn't so far off the mark as to earn me condemnation!!!!

[4for4]

Just curious if some of the high level swing doctors here could add some comments about how swing mechanics should be adjusted for slow pitch play. Given the huge extra amount of time available and the high arc of the pitch, what do you recommend for an ideal swing? Massive uppercut? Take a few steps into the pitch when that's allowed?
This may not be totally appropriate for BASEBALL Fever, but I hope that it isn't so far off the mark as to earn me condemnation!!!!

Ssarge has talked about this more than anyone I think. Search his id and this topic.

[Mark H]

I'd guess some things like terminal bat drag would work in sp but I guess step one would be study video of great sp hitters. Gad, can't believe I just typed that. lol

[ssarge]

SP swings are optimized for batspeed, not for quickness. And consequently, batspeed of elite SP is much higher than in MLB.

Amazing what a 24mph pitch permits.

I am traveling at a tournament this weekend, and don't have the bookmark.

But look for Mike Machenko's site. He's got some clips and some advice.

I would recommend that you DO NOT use his advice for FP. But I think it's good for SP. He DID hit 860 HRs in a season once - albeit a 375 game season when on tour w/ the Steele's Silver Bullets. Also, you have to love a guy who in the middle of an 800+ HR season was asked (in an SI interview) the secret of his success, and replied,

"Well, I'd like to tell you I am seeing the ball real good, and that it looks as big as a grapefruit. But actually, it IS as big as a grapefruit."

Regards,

Scott

[hellborn]

.....
But look for Mike Machenko's site. He's got some clips and some advice.
.....
Scott
I have to admit that I haven't looked for this site yet, but I will.
Would like to share some progress that I have made...I was having an issue in SP that I would hit the ball really hard on a line to center or right, but pop up or hit fairly weak flies if I tried to pull the ball in the air. I finally noticed that I would usually pull the ball pretty well in the air if I reached a little for a pitch that was coming in a little short, and figured out that I wasn't striding and using my body very much on pitches that were more in what should have been my wheelhouse.
I tried copying some elements of Ruth's swing in my SP swing and didn't have much luck. Then, I started using the little Pujols foot twist to start off my swing...man, what a difference! I started really lofting the ball to LF/LC with authority, like I remembered hitting the ball in years past. I used to have a similar trigger mechanism, but couldn't reconstruct it no matter how I tried...kind of a little waggle that brought my thighs close together. I going to stick with the Pujols twist now!!
Not sure who first posted this, but I first saw this trigger on this site...thanks to whomever posted it!

[handyman11]

I had the opportunity to play against Steeles many years ago , and also played against other 'Major' slo pitch players,when I played on a 'A' level Slow pitch travel team softball team during the late 80's and most of the 90's ,,,,( before the juiced bats and juiced balls ruined the game ) ....

They could all crush the ball .......but like WWF wrestlers , almost all had bodies that you could'nt get with normal weightlifting ... our team stayed at the same hotel in Daytona one year , and we looked like skeletons next to them at the pool ...... had 3 players on my team experiment with the same 'vitamins' one year and the results were extraordinary , as far as home run power ....

What drove us crazy was at that level , the umpires would make the pitcher throw perfect strikes , and they were so disciplined , they would only swing at their pitch ...

That being said , most had taken so many practice swings ( the money was good back then ) and were so good at what they did , that they could change their swing to adjust to the situation at the plate ...

[hellborn]

I had the opportunity to play against Steeles many years ago , and also played against other 'Major' slo pitch players,when I played on a 'A' level Slow pitch travel team softball team during the late 80's and most of the 90's ,,,,( before the juiced bats and juiced balls ruined the game ) ....

Steele's!! There's a blast from the past...haven't seen one of their bats in years. They were everywhere when I lived down in TX...I would guess that they must be out of business now? Maybe they just don't get distributed up
here in New England. I do recall that the Men of Steele were seriously big boys!
Did you see many players at that high level take one or two steps forward before swinging at a ball? A guy on our team called it a "Canadian Shuffle", and I know that it's very common in 16" (Chicago style) softball, but I've only seen it a handful of times in 12". A new guy in our league is doing it and he's been absolutely killing the ball. I do something much like it when I'm fungoing fly balls and have been thinking about trying it for slow pitch, although I hate to mess around now that I've finally got a good (conventional) swing going. I would assume that this style is not legal in all associations.

[handyman11]

Hellborn ....yes , actually there were players that would run up to the ball , and as long as they are in the box , it should be legal ...I remember it being more the singles , double hitters ..... you do have alot of head/eye movement , I would think ....the longball hitters would just plant , and wait forever for their pitch , which was usually waist high or up ....believe it or not , they spent many hours working at hitting , since the competition for the ones making money was fierce ... it was almost like a second job for them ...or a first job for a few , I think ....

Hav'nt seen a Steele's bat in many years .... the team went downhill when Ritch's Superior ( sponsored by Louisville) took some of their better players , and I think Worth , with Carl Rose , put together a nice team ... the company may have been mismanaged , also , but that was a long time ago ....

Once Ray Dimarini came out with the 'double wall' bat , and other companies followed , the defense slowly went out of softball , and 11-10 games became 56-55 ,....when the wood bat leagues came back to baseball , softball ended for me . . best of luck .....

[ssarge]

I actually think Steels's started the scoring barrage. Nobody in the past had ever assembled a team as powerful. I remember a USSSA Majors World Series game in Waterloo, Iowa where Steele's scored over 80 runs. A guy named Ken Dain was 8 for 8 with 8 HRs and a Sac Fly. Dave Neal (President of Steele's) had an eye for talent, and at the time, the team was barnstorming the country, playing 400+ games per year. Pretty much against all comers. When Neal saw someone who could play, he signed them up, and they hopped in a van. Pay was variable, based on production - BA and HRs.

You're right that Superior out of CT was the next power on the scene. Took Dirk Androff, the heart and sole of Steele's, and a few other players as well. I really liked Androff. Tragically, he dropped dead in his mid-30s after getting off his exercise bike. He was a great one who used to just hit some MOON shots. Unbelievable power. He had been a college basketball player - I think he was about 6' 8" - and then he added a LOT of muscle. Great hitter. For a while, Carl Rose was leading Big Time softball in HRs. I don't remember him playing for Steele's though. Am I wrong about this? One of Superior's players was "Daffy" Dave Steffan, a former Minor League pitcher who hit NINE HRs in 9 ABs at the USSSA World Series in Omaha, breaking Dain's (then) two year old record. The last one was inside the park, though, and wasn't persured very passionately by the disinterested CF. Superior scored 60 runs in the first 3 innings of that game, and then they stopped the bleeding and everyone headed for the airport. Going by memory here, but I think at one time in the 1st inning, there were either 7 or 8 CONSECUTIVE HRs.

And of course there was Machenko, who hit 1650 HRs over a 2 year period. About 2 per game. Saw him in BP in Long Beach at the USSSA World Series one time (the year Steele's won the Triple Cown), and he hit out 23 of 25. One hit the fence, and the other was about 10 feet short. Warning track power, I guess.


Soon after it started getting absolutely ridiculous, ASA instituted steroid testing, and while USSSA didn't, they did start limiting HRs to something like 14 a game in Major's Play.

Today, there are 100 or so guys in SP with 400' power. And some who are more like 500. It is really fun to watch an HR contest. My favorite lefty is Brett Helmers, who can hit about 50 in a row seemingly any time he likes. And from the right side, I have always liked Rusty Baumgardner.

I have no illusions - clearly, supplements are prevalent, and so is bat doctoring. I think that the pitchers are insane, and deserve some sort of medal of valor. Sometimes the Majors guys get in tournaments w/ "A" or even "B" players, and that is not so fun to watch, and probably not at all safe for those players (even though they are very good in their own right). But I still find the game very enjoyable for fans at the top levels. The power is stupendous, and believe it or not, there is some stellar defense, too. Anyone who is in the Orlando area some Septmeber ought to check out the USSSA Majors World Championship. Quite a show.

Regards,

Scott

[handyman11]

Scott ......you are right about Steele's , and the scoring barrage at that level ,.... I was talking more about the level lower ( 'A' ball , with a 6 HR limit ,as opposed to 'Super' ,where they had an unlimited home run limit ) ....

I started at the 'A' Nationals in 1985 ,stopped in 1996 , and games that were 9-8 and 6-5 in 1985 became 31-30 in 1995 .., we went 'major' one year and played in Salem, Oregon, with a 12 HR limit , the games took forever ..

Defense was huge at the lower levels..nowadays , even at a good 'C' level tournament, with no home runs allowed , the scores can be in the 30's ......

I do remember Dirk Androff , as we played a USSSA over-35 national for 4 years straight in the mid to late 90's , at the same time the USSSA 'major' tourney was held in Daytona ... real nice guy ,and well respected by his peers .....

Carl Rose played with the Worth team back then ,I forget the name ,but never played with Ritch's .....was'nt built like the rest of the players ,but was a HR machine ....I still have my Worth Carl Rose bat , which was a great bat at the time .....

I remember Baumgarter , he was build like a Greek God , and could actually play good defense ..they played at that time in Daytona Cubs baseball stadium , and hit balls out like it was bandbox ....of course ,I was in the parking lot when a bomb was hit out there , and we laughed when we caught the ball ...it was a .50 core ball that was like a golf ball ..... I hope they use 44 core now ...

I'm sure you remember Scott Virkus from Steele's, another monster ,a former NFL defensive lineman who always walked around the hotel with no shirt on ...was about the same size as Androff and Bruce Meade ....

One of my last year's playing , Steel's hit rock bottom in Daytona , went 0-2 in the tourney .... was talking to Dave Neale , who said that Ritch's was offering a few of his players more money,and they did'nt care about winning .... I went to a nightclub with a bunch of players later , when the Powers brother's from Steele's came in , got rowdy , and about 6 cops with night sticks came out of nowhere , and started beating them ...I think Dave had to bail them out out of jail ...and if I remember correctly , the Powers brothers defected to Ritch's the next season ....

You are right , in that the power in pretty impressive at the 'Super' or 'Major' level ,and the defense is actually not that bad either , although you don't see alot of ground balls .... the guys who played at that level were , for the most part , very good athletes ....

Enough reminiscing ..... have to get back to the world of girl's softball !

[ssarge]

Handyman:

Love reading your recollections. Great observations. What Majors team did you play for out of Portland? Wasn't their a trucking company sponsor out of there?


Didn't mean to imply that Rose played for Superior, I realize he didn't.


I had heard that the Powers brothers (Tot, right? And was the other one Jimmy?) could get a little rowdy. THAT story certainly rings true. In fact, there were a number of deep south guys in the day thta seemed to know their way around a party.


I do remember Virkus. 260 lbs + of raging muscle, and still the fastest guy I ever saw playing SP. Unbelievable. For at least a while, he was hitting cross-handed, and could still power a liner to the fence. He could throw one from there, too. But it was the weirdest looking hitting I ever saw. I did hear a number of basically hilarious stories from the Steele's guys indicating that cerebrally, he may have been at the shallower end of the gene pool. Not malicious, the guys seemed to really like him and told the stories in front of him. Some were doozies. But what a physical specimen!


By the way, Baumgardner still plays. So does Todd Joerling from the Steele's team, and I think a couple of other guys. Who was their principle pitcher? Was it Weiderman? I remember Buddy Slater as possibly the best pitcher I ever saw - pitched for everybody over the years, was USSSA World Series MVP the year Campbell's won, then pitched for Superior.


Glad you mentioned Meade. What a machine - and what a great guy. Too bad his back gave out - there was never anybody ever. Huge strength, mechanical perfection.


And I never saw ANYONE stronger than Rick Scheer. What a mountain.


One of the guys who was a GREAT Majors pitcher - and I think he finally won a USSSA World Series w/ Bell Corp - was Greg Cannel (sp?). He lives in my home town. In fact, his nephew played on a LL team I coached. Small world.

I might be pre-dating you a little here, but if you remember back to Howard's Western Steer and Campbell's Carpets, a guy named Denny Jones was a wonderful player. Great hitter - Sports Illustrated once featured him in a Faces in the Crowd segment when he hit .860 for the season for Campbnells (over 100 games, highest competition in the country), but he was also a phenomenal defensive outfielder. Anyway, about 12 years ago, I was pitching for our church team - a "C" team at best, though pretty good for a church team - and I look up in amazement as Jones comes to the plate. Not a ringer either, he was a member of the church and played w/ them whenever he could. It was a tournament, we needed to win the game, and so w/ all the courage I could muster, I pitched him outside and got him to fly out about 400' deep to right (no fence on this field). Felt good. He was annoyed, though. Still, for 10 years, he was a member of the ALL-TIME USSSA Majors World Series All-Star team. Since been bumped, but he was a member forever. His presence in a church tournament took me by surprise.

Great remeniscing with you,

Scott

[wilson68]

It has always rubbed me a little bit wrong that they invented a sport in which anyone could hit the ball, and then they said, 'But not too hard, mind you.'

[handyman11]

Scott ....I actually played for a team ( Pete's Mobil Car Wash ) out of upstate NY ,,,,started out as a local team ,and eventually our sponsor picked up guys from Detroit , Jersey , etc ......we had a good run playing 'A' ball, but after a finishing in the top 4 in Dothan , Alabama in the early 90's , ASA forced us to play Major the following year , which took us to Salem .... we were overmatched ,from a power level , as defense was our strong point ,and it does'nt matter as much at the higher levels ...

I remember Sports Illustrated having an article on Jerry's Caterer's , before I started playing ,and I think Campbell's/Howards may have been part of that ...I'm amazed that alot of these guys still play , but I guess it must be in their blood by now ....

I think Greg Dreiling ( from Houston ? ) was the Ritch's pitcher back then , but it was a long time ago,and there was alot of guys swapping teams ...but I do remember Greg Cannel , I think Bell Corp. actually beat Ritch's one year down there , and won the whole thing .....he was'nt a home run hitter , but probably hit around .800 ,and at USSSA , could throw some crazy pitches .....

Weiderman was with Ritch's , all I remember about him was that he would'nt shut up the whole game ..for slow pitch ,there was alot of bantering back and forth between players , and the game could get pretty intense at time ....

I'm sure you saw some good USSSA pitchers , you probably saw pitchers that would make you laugh out loud ...there were guys who would throw behind their back , threw their legs , would run up to the mound , and fake pitches....one guy would throw a pitch , and at times would actually charge the batter ...

As a pitcher , you must have taken a few off the body ...I would refuse to even pitch batting practice ,as balls came through the box at 100 miles an hour ... one year in Las Vegas we had some guy who looked like Von Hayes run up on the ball and hit a one hopper off the hard ground into our pitcher's chest , and he staggered towards me at second base ..I thought he was going down .....I asked him if he was allright ,and he looked up and mumbled ' he can't hurt me ' .... after I stopped playing , a few of my friends hooked up with a team from Kentucky , and told me that a few years later , hitters avoided going up the middle at the higher levels , so they would'nt hurt the pitcher ...

Major softball was so big back then , there was a great magazine that came out for about a year in the mid 90's called 'Softball Masters ', which was like a Sports Illustrated for Major Softball ....used to cover the whole circuit , and has a ton of great color pictures ...now I may have to go downstairs and break them out of my archives !

[Ifubuildit]

I have no illusions - clearly, supplements are prevalent, and so is bat doctoring. I think that the pitchers are insane, and deserve some sort of medal of valor.

The reason I retired from slow pitch softball as a pitcher. I found sanity as a ball went by my ear at Mach 5.

I do have memories of playing "A" level softball in Ohio against a Lima Steele team in the early 80's. The boys could hit.

Elliott.

[ssarge]

As a pitcher , you must have taken a few off the body
I never pitched above "B" level. Even there, I had to really force yourself to throw anything outer half. my brain just didn't want to allow my body to do it.

Best,

Scott

[GeorgiaHoo]

and we had players on our team that could hit the ball 350+ easily. One player had been an NFL tight end for a few years and was absolutely massive. As an outfielder, I think B and C class ball is much more fun. It gets boring watching the ball go over the fence.

[hellborn]

As a pitcher , you must have taken a few off the body ...I would refuse to even pitch batting practice ,as balls came through the box at 100 miles an hour ... one year in Las Vegas we had some guy who looked like Von Hayes run up on the ball and hit a one hopper off the hard ground into our pitcher's chest , and he staggered towards me at second base ..I thought he was going down .....I asked him if he was allright ,and he looked up and mumbled ' he can't hurt me ' .... after I stopped playing , a few of my friends hooked up with a team from Kentucky , and told me that a few years later , hitters avoided going up the middle at the higher levels , so they would'nt hurt the pitcher ...

Major softball was so big back then , there was a great magazine that came out for about a year in the mid 90's called 'Softball Masters ', which was like a Sports Illustrated for Major Softball ....used to cover the whole circuit , and has a ton of great color pictures ...now I may have to go downstairs and break them out of my archives !
I think that the highest I ever played was C level, and some of the better pitchers there would pitch with a simple toss from the hip and immediately retreat to basically between the SS and 2Bman...helped them avoid injury and also became more of a useful defensive player. Haven't seen a pitcher do that in years, but I'd sure do it if I pitched at all.
"Softball Masters"...I bought a few of those...good mag. Still have one around somewhere, I'll have to dig it out now!!