Swing too early - advice request

[clabarre]

Hello,

I help coach my daughters 16u travel softball team. There are a couple of girls on the team who have a tendency to swing far too early. The speed doesn't matter - for example, yesterday in practice the ball machine was set at 65 mph and the kids were only about 30 feet away - they each still swung way early.

I know this doesn't give you much to go on but I'd appreciate any advice/cues that you might offer to help the kids wait on the pitch longer.

Thanks,
Chuck

[Ohfor]

It gives me all I need to hear because I've suffered from and continue to suffer from the same disease.

They are afraid to be late so they start early. Because they start early, they will seldom be on time.

Until you cure "afraid to be late" you won't cure "always early".

[dougmac]

Most kids start early, but the main problem with their early start is that the first move is forward. If they make the first move back, as in cocking the lead knee towards the catcher to initiate the load and do it smoothly and not be in a hurry with it, they will do two things...........they won't be as early and will have loaded for power.

[swingbuster]

Dmac..

You right but they ain't listening. How to load and how to transition at the cusp is at the heart of it all.

They work on forward by turning and do not work on coiling while loading.

You must have both and they do not hear it.

[Ohfor]

...They work on forward by turning and do not work on coiling while loading...

There has never been a better example that you don't know what "forward by turning" means.

[fungo22]

There has never been a better example that you don't know what "forward by turning" means. Amen. I was thinking the same thing myself.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Hello,

There are a couple of girls on the team who have a tendency to swing far too early. The speed doesn't matter - for example, yesterday in practice the ball machine was set at 65 mph and the kids were only about 30 feet away - they each still swung way early.

Thanks,
Chuck

I'm not understanding the logic of this drill. If the hitters are swinging too early at the normal pitching distance, then how does having them practice at 30ft help? I'd think that this would encourage the batters to begin their swing even earlier. This practice would seem to be a move in the wrong direction.

Timing is an important issue.

Consider going back to the normal pitching distance.

Next set the machine to what the hitters will typically see in terms of speed.

From here you need to promote line drives to CF.

If a RH hitter is swinging early and roping it to LF, then you need to find a way for them to trigger later in their swing.

In other words, you don't ask them to swing slower, just later. One way to do that is to have them attempt to hit the ball to opposite field. A RH hitter would attempt to hit the ball to RF. To do this the hitter will need to wait longer before initiating their swing, and in doing so this will give you the result that you are after.

[Ohfor]

They can't just swing later until they quicken the swing. Asking players to just wait and hit oppo when they haven't been quickened will just lead to them "filling" the alotted time with slack. Slack is the problem. They have to start early because they have slack in their swing. It must first be eliminated.

I recommend putting them into a cage and moving them close to where they can't touch the pitches.....or just barely. They will then learn or attempt to learn a new level of quickness. A new "impulse". Once that is learned, once their swing is quickened, you can reasonalby expect them to wait.

Until they learn to be quick, they will always "hide" their lack of quickness by starting early.

[Stealth]

"They work on forward by turning and do not work on coiling while loading."

Swingbuster - check out the clips at siggy's site. The ones of Mauer and Manny. I have been looking at those over and over watching them get ready to initiate the swing. I can't explain it in words but the video's tell the story.

After watching Steve's dvd's I believe I now understand the term forward by turning.

[Mark H]

Dmac..

You right but they ain't listening. How to load and how to transition at the cusp is at the heart of it all.

They work on forward by turning and do not work on coiling while loading.

You must have both and they do not hear it.

You have no idea.

[FiveFrameSwing]

They can't just swing later until they quicken the swing. Asking players to just wait and hit oppo when they haven't been quickened will just lead to them "filling" the alotted time with slack. Slack is the problem. They have to start early because they have slack in their swing. It must first be eliminated.

I recommend putting them into a cage and moving them close to where they can't touch the pitches.....or just barely. They will then learn or attempt to learn a new level of quickness. A new "impulse". Once that is learned, once their swing is quickened, you can reasonalby expect them to wait.

Until they learn to be quick, they will always "hide" their lack of quickness by starting early.


This drill would tend to promote swinging even earlier. That's the wrong direction for the problem that they wish to correct.

[Ohfor]

You don't get it.

Slack is what makes them start early. Until it is gone they will always start early. And, the slower the pitch, the more time they have to fill with more slack.

How do you rid yourself of it?

You put yourself in a position that makes it obvious that you have it. STRESS. Then and only then can you look for setups, hand positions, launch techniques, loads, etc etc that are quicker.

Until then.....more the same. More insanity. More doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

No player "admits" they have slack. You have to show them.

I recommend you look deeply into the meaning of your user name because I'd bet a milk shake the girls who start early don't have 5 frame swings.

[dougmac]

They can't just swing later until they quicken the swing. Asking players to just wait and hit oppo when they haven't been quickened will just lead to them "filling" the alotted time with slack. Slack is the problem. They have to start early because they have slack in their swing. It must first be eliminated.

I recommend putting them into a cage and moving them close to where they can't touch the pitches.....or just barely. They will then learn or attempt to learn a new level of quickness. A new "impulse". Once that is learned, once their swing is quickened, you can reasonalby expect them to wait.

Until they learn to be quick, they will always "hide" their lack of quickness by starting early.



Moving up on a pitching macine won't help anything......you will just have them jumping out early. A complete waste of time. Teach them how to load smoothly and to not hurry it. Strive for 4 frames, as 5 frames is not going to get you hitting 90 mph fastballs.

[Stealth]

Fiveframeswing - Read Ohfor's post as many times as necessary until you understand it. He is right as long as you understand where he is coming from. If you don't understand ask questions.

Ohfor - My son has been working on his swing getting rid of the extra slop, correcting his posture etc. Now he is definately quicker to the ball than before. He plays this weekend in a tournament - I am wondering how he will do because in batting practice his timing is a little off due to this newfound quickness that he has. It should be interesting as he is facing the top 2 USSSA teams in 11U in our area tomorow. One of them has two pitchers that throw 65 plus - he was late against them 3 months ago.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Fiveframeswing - Read Ohfor's post as many times as necessary until you understand it. He is right as long as you understand where he is coming from. If you don't understand ask questions.



The notion of shortening the pitching distance, to solve the problem of swinging too early, is misguided and incorrect. It will result in worsening the problem and potentially degrading the early mechanics of the swing.

[Ohfor]

Moving up on a pitching macine won't help anything......you will just have them jumping out early. A complete waste of time. Teach them how to load smoothly and to not hurry it. Strive for 4 frames, as 5 frames is not going to get you hitting 90 mph fastballs.

Until they realize that they are slow, they will not make changes. Or, they may make batspeed changes as opposed to bat quickness changes.

Stressing them with speed is the best information they need to realize their swing has slop.

Soft toss, bp, front toss......all that stuff is good AFTER they realize they have a problem and have fixed it or are working on it.

The single most important thing in my son's progress was demonstrating to him the slop in his swing. Nothing I could say or do would change anything.

Not until we saw a college DI player hitting against a machine, 1/3 of the way closer, did we understand that Brandon's struggles was related to swing quickness, not timing. And, within 20 swings, he was hitting the ball at that 1/3 distance........just like the college DI player. And, then and only then, did many of his swing flaws disapear. All of a sudden, there was no time for them. He was filling the time with slop. Then, the slop took over making it impossible for him to time pitches. He had to allow tiime for the swing and the slop. Now, he only allows time for the swing.

And, you can't have timing until you have swing quickness. Not until you learn just how quick a 5 frame (or less) swing is will you ever have a chance to time top pitching.

It's not a cure all, but it is a vital step in the process.

Before you criticize, you'd better try it.

[Ohfor]

The notion of shortening the pitching distance, to solve the problem of swinging too early, is misguided and incorrect. It will result in worsening the problem and potentially degrading the early mechanics of the swing.

You've said this several times. We heard it each time.

Present some evidence.

I maintain you don't understand why a hitter swings early all the time.

I maintain you are putting a band aid on a much larger "movement" problem.

Your bandaid is not what most kids are looking for.

Stress them a little. Video it. Watch the video. You'd be surprised.

Now, after learning a new movement pattern, waiting is much easier.

[dougmac]

Hitting off a pitching machine from 30 feet is a piece of cake. Just jump out early and hit the ball. It is thrown in the same spot all the time and is easy to hit after a few pitches.......whack, whack, whack. Now throw to him from 60 feet and he jumps out early and has not gained a thing. Teach them how to load and you will help them.......if not, the problems will continue.

The drills that I have seen many of the kids doing........just standing there and rotating are just as bad, because now, the kids try to hit the same way and don't have a load.

It has been preached by many on this board that the way to go is to emulate the big leaguers.......I agree, but the the clips that show up don't show the kids emulating big leaguers. It shows kids doing insignificant tee drills with very little value. Dead starts, no loads and heads going straight down, forced one arm swings like Hriniak used to teach.

If the first move is forward, the kid is going to struggle and that is what I am seeing in the clips of the kids.

[Ohfor]

Hitting off a pitching machine from 30 feet is a piece of cake.

Then go to 20 feet.

Just jump out early and hit the ball.

There is no jumping because it takes timing completely out of the equation. Ready.............swing.

It is thrown in the same spot all the time and is easy to hit after a few pitches.......whack, whack, whack.

Not our machine but I wish it would for this drill.

Now throw to him from 60 feet and he jumps out early and has not gained a thing.

Complete uninformed bull sh*t. With all due respect to my friend DMac. I will acknowledge that timing has to be relearned. But, it is so much easier with a quick swing. So much easier without slop.

Teach them how to load and you will help them

This drill teaches them to preload (which later needs to be done differently). But, it helps them identify the position they are looking for when they load normally. This is a critical stage for young hitters. Without a destination they may end up anywhere and they may get their in inefficient ways.

but the the clips that show up don't show the kids emulating big leaguers. It shows kids doing insignificant tee drills with very little value.

I recommend you learn the drill, what it's teaching and how. Because you don't really know.

[Stealth]

I think everyone would agree that less slop is good. In order to hit from 30ft. you cannot have slop. If this drill helps in getting rid of slop then it would be good right?

With that said - every drill if not understood or done correctly will create more problems. If Fiveframeswing understands what Ohfor is saying and does the drill correctly it will help.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Video it. Watch the video.



There you go. That's one way to work on improving bat speed. Film the hitter's mechanics and remove inefficiences.

The problem that was posted was about swinging too early. I can only imagine that this is a concern because they are pulling the ball. The cure for that is to swing later ... which is what the poster wants to do. One way for someone to swing later is to attempt to hit to the opposite field.

In terms of swing speed I'd recommend using either a radar gun or film analysis. The faster you can provide the feedback the better the drill will be.

[Ohfor]

There you go. That's one way to work on improving bat speed...

You have a ways to go pal. Bat speed is not the issue for a player starting early all the time.

And, I've watch as much if not more video than you. And until the player realizes the level of quickness needed, they will do everything you ask, and do their best to make the video look good, but still can't hit.

Take time away from them and count the flaws that disappear. They no longer have the time to do things wrong.

And, can I ask for evidence again. Your words are meaning less and less to me.

[tom.guerry]

The oaffie and co forward by turning is not the same thing as what buster is describing and is not the same thing as the universal sequence in the mlb swing which is why the PCR tee drills result in teaching a sequence that DMAC is unfamiliar with in mlb.

Dixon had one idea about forward by turning and Nyman tweaked it, but both are wrong.

I don't know what the latest oaffie idea is, but it is unlikely to be what actually happens in an mlb swing.

[dougmac]

Then go to 20 feet.



There is no jumping because it takes timing completely out of the equation. Ready.............swing.



Not our machine but I wish it would for this drill.



Complete uninformed bull sh*t. With all due respect to my friend DMac. I will acknowledge that timing has to be relearned. But, it is so much easier with a quick swing. So much easier without slop.



This drill teaches them to preload (which later needs to be done differently). But, it helps them identify the position they are looking for when they load normally. This is a critical stage for young hitters. Without a destination they may end up anywhere and they may get their in inefficient ways.



I recommend you learn the drill, what it's teaching and how. Because you don't really know.


No Richard, I know and you have shown us the drills and they have not worked at all.......period.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You have a ways to go pal. Bat speed is not the issue for a player starting early all the time.

And, I've watch as much if not more video than you. And until the player realizes the level of quickness needed, they will do everything you ask, and do their best to make the video look good, but still can't hit.

Take time away from them and count the flaws that disappear. They no longer have the time to do things wrong.

Stop spouting off about what you don't know.

You don't know me and you don't know how much video I've analyzed. Why make a statement that you are totally ignorant of? It makes you come across as arrogant.

The poster's concern was on swinging too soon. You ASSumed that this meant that they were swinging too slow. It's quite possible that the poster was concerned with "timing", and the drill that you advocated would make timing even worse.

[Ohfor]

No Richard, I know and you have shown us the drills and they have not worked at all.......period.

Other than the fact that this is totally wrong, you're usually pretty good at analysis.

Don't mistake analysis and understanding what a good swing looks like with "teaching it".

There are many steps in the process. Some kids can skip steps. They have an understanding already. Others, have to be shown the details.......one small step at a time.

I struggle with teaching it just like everyone. But, when I find something that has a profound effect on improvement, I will share it even if those who don't teach don't like it.

[dougmac]

You have always shared what you know and it is appreciated on my part. I feel you are being stubborn and are not willing to change your teaching methods at all when some of them are not only not working, they won't work. You asked for responses to the clips and what he is being taught and they are being given, but you disagree with everything, so maybe you should just keep grinding along doing what you are doing.

Tip.......you can't unload worth a darn until you learn to load, and it is not a mental or imaginary middle load. If the first move is forward, the young hitter will never drive a ball except by accident.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Tip.......you can't unload worth a darn until you learn to load, and it is not a mental or imaginary middle load. If the first move is forward, the young hitter will never drive a ball except by accident.

Excellent tip.

Much appreciated!!

[Ohfor]

I'm stubborn because I don't agree with you? And I don't agree with you because I have evidence. What is yours? And can I ask you your favorite question......"who have you taught and where are they". Your son of course. Who are the others?

What you don't seem to get a handle on is who "we" are talking about most of the time. It's our sons/daughters. Our sons/daughters that statistically will never play at the level you hang out at. The players who play at the level you hang out at START at a level of athleticism much higher than the majority of our sons and daughters. Our sons and daughters have to learn many things that good athletes already know.

What you refuse to acknowledge (or maybe you just don't know) is that just because the knee is turned in, or just because the hands are back, or just because one coils his hips, or just because a player "looks" loaded, it doesn't mean he is.

That I know for sure.

Not until a hitter is stressed do you realize that "look" may mean nothing.

What the muscles are doing, their level of tension, stretch, whatever you want to call it, "what's beneath the uniform", is what is important. And, until stressed you don't know.

Put them close to a machine and have them learn "stress". Having them figure out a preloaded position from which they swing is bad advice according to you. Well, good luck teaching your way to the 99% that I'm talking about without it.

It's a step in the process. Teach them that "feel". The position from which they unload. Then teach them to load to that position from which they unload. Then teach them to load to that position from which they unload, while timing a pitch.

Step by step by step.

Again, you aren't around many of the 99%.

[Ohfor]

...are not willing to change your teaching methods at all when some of them are not only not working, they won't work...

I'm a dad. He's a son. We both love baseball. We have a computer. We start our jouney 5 years ago.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn030303.gif
Entering Sophomore in high school season. Could barely hit a ball off a tee at the time of this clip.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn040603.gif
Soph in high school. Only played because they had no other third baseman

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/baseball/brndn/hitting/brndn041205whithit.gif
Senior year. Far from there. But hit .400

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn033006springfield.gif
Freshman in college. Double hit 375 feet. Never before in his life had he hit a ball this far and it was against the best pitching he's ever seen.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn060906c.gif
Current swing. Swing that you say "he looks to load the best he's ever done."

There's the progression. A kid who couldn't hit a ball off a tee to playing in college.
Please tell us your story. Everyone needs to compare what you say to what we've done.

We took a lot of forks in the road along the way. Some went to nowhere. Some led to a few nuggets of information. We know the difference. Do you?

Tell me which step we took that was wrong. Which step didn't work?

[Ohfor]

The oaffie and co forward by turning is not the same thing as what buster is describing and is not the same thing as the universal sequence in the mlb swing which is why the PCR tee drills result in teaching a sequence that DMAC is unfamiliar with in mlb.

Dixon had one idea about forward by turning and Nyman tweaked it, but both are wrong.

I don't know what the latest oaffie idea is, but it is unlikely to be what actually happens in an mlb swing.

All

If you've ever wondered about Tom......you know....is he "really all there"?

This may help you answer your question.

Tom The Lunatic (http://psychophysical.free.fr/search.php?search_author=Tom)

[4for4]

All

If you've ever wondered about Tom......you know....is he "really all there"?

This may help you answer your question.

Tom The Lunatic (http://psychophysical.free.fr/search.php?search_author=Tom)

.........:D

[Ohfor]

Hello,

I help coach my daughters 16u travel softball team. There are a couple of girls on the team who have a tendency to swing far too early. The speed doesn't matter...

FiveFrame...

Does this really sound like a timing issue to you?

No matter the speed, they swing too early.

I recommend you study a little bit.

[Jake Patterson]

There's the progression. A kid who couldn't hit a ball off a tee to playing in college.


There may be criticism for specific techniques exhibited by your son, but the progress he has had over the past five or so years is admirable.

[dougmac]

The second clip as a Soph is the best swing. The last swing shows taht he is trying to load with his lead leg, but obviously you don't want him to go any farther with it.

So what has happened is that you were developing good rotation 3 years ago which is better than the rotation he has now. The youngster is trying to get a load with his lead leg, but you don't want that. You keep standing him in front of a machine that is 30 feet away and it most definately won't happen.

As far as my story goes, we moved to LA from Canada when I was a 15 year old Soph in high school. 2 1/2 years later I was playing pro ball. I have worked with young kids and I have worked with major leaguers......BFD.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FiveFrame...

Does this really sound like a timing issue to you?

No matter the speed, they swing too early.

I recommend you study a little bit.

Yes, this sounds like a timing issue.

The hint of course was when they wrote "have a tendency to swing far too early".

When something occurs "too early" then it may be occuring "too early" (i.e., poor timing).

I don't see how your drill addressed such a timing issue. Instead it would tend to promote swinging even earlier.

[Ohfor]

.........BFD.

Ohhhhhhh My God.

YOU can ask us the question. If you, the established, asks it, it has meaning.

But don't we dare ask the same of you. It's just a BFD then.

I gotcha.

[Ohfor]

The second clip as a Soph is the best swing.

Really. Because the rear heel comes off the ground? Or is it because his lead leg never straightens?

Tell Thome the importance of the rear heel.

Give us the full analysis, please.

Because he could barely hit the grass then.

[Ohfor]

Yes, this sounds like a timing issue.

The hint of course was when they wrote "have a tendency to swing far too early".

When something occurs "too early" then it may be occuring "too early" (i.e., poor timing).

I don't see how your drill addressed such a timing issue. Instead it would tend to promote swinging even earlier.

They swing far too early ON ALL PITCHES. ALL SPEEDS.

Not the slow ones after they've seen the fast ones. ALL PITCHES.

There is little to no connection to timing with these facts. Other than they know they need a certain amount of time to execute their swing. And, they fear not having that much time. So, they start early ALL THE TIME.

Reducing the length of time it takes to execute the swing is a reasonable explanation.

[Ohfor]

...

I don't see how your drill addressed such a timing issue. Instead it would tend to promote swinging even earlier.

It's quite clear you don't understand the benefit of the drill.

Thanks for acknowledging it.

Go ahead. Just tell your players to wait longer. Tell them to hit to the opposite field. They'll still carve out enough time to execute their slop filled, slack filled swing. You've accomplished nothing. Because, they still have to swing too early to go oppo. The swings are still slop filled.

Been there. Done that.

[dougmac]

Because he rotated well and it was a good start in your quest to teach your son how to swing a bat. The back foot gets to the toe and the lead leg does not quite straighten..... A-Rod does that quite often. The rotation since then has not been as good. He is stronger now and has taken thousands of more swings, but the swing is not as good as it was then.

As far as the BFD goes, you don't care who I have worked with anyway and that is why I wrote BFD.

[FiveFrameSwing]

They swing far too early ON ALL PITCHES. ALL SPEEDS.

Not the slow ones after they've seen the fast ones. ALL PITCHES.

There is little to no connection to timing with these facts. Other than they know they need a certain amount of time to execute their swing. And, they fear not having that much time. So, they start early ALL THE TIME.

Reducing the length of time it takes to execute the swing is a reasonable explanation.

Of course there is a connection. Under all circumstances they begin their swing too early. It sounds like the coach wants them to swing later. The words "earlier" and "later" suggest a timing issue.

They may be triggering off of something too early in the pitchers motion.

Whatever it is, the coach wants them to swing "later". Your drill would have them swinging "earlier".

Why not believe the coach? Why not directly answer the question of how to initiate the swing later?

[Ohfor]

...but obviously you don't want him to go any farther with it...

Who said that?

You said to improve the knee action.

I said...

Good replies. Good advice. Thanks.

[FiveFrameSwing]

It's quite clear you don't understand the benefit of the drill.

Thanks for acknowledging it.

Go ahead. Just tell your players to wait longer. Tell them to hit to the opposite field. They'll still carve out enough time to execute their slop filled, slack filled swing. You've accomplished nothing. Because, they still have to swing too early to go oppo. The swings are still slop filled.

Been there. Done that.

But you admitted yourself that your drill would not improve timing ... but instead bat speed.

Next time read the poster's question before issuing advice.

By the way, there is no need to rush the initial loading of the swing. This can be a slow and controlled motion. It isn't until the hitter progresses from toe-touch to heel-plant that they need to quickly begin rotation.

[Ohfor]

...

As far as the BFD goes, you don't care who I have worked with anyway and that is why I wrote BFD.

I'll accept that when you stop asking others the question......or......when you accept the same answer you expect me to accept.

[Ohfor]

But you admitted yourself that your drill would not improve timing ... but instead bat speed.

Show where I said this.

Next time read the poster's question before issuing advice.

Really? My advice is right on point to a very real problem with young kids. One I suffered through myself, as a player, and am trying to fix currently. And, one I have already fixed with my son.

Yours?

Standard hogwash.

[tom.guerry]

oaffie-

You are no more able to understand postmodern epistomology/depth psychology (see tom the lunatic) than you are the mlb swing.

You and your now discredited guru could use a little depth psychology.Hope you don't turn on your current guru the same way.

I think your son benefitted most from the throwing drills. Tee drills and all that PCR junk is just making him a dead hands no strider.

Doug knows what a high level mlb swing looks and feels like. You are truncating the load and dooming him to failure from the getgo.

Insanity is trying the same stuff and expecting different results.

[Ohfor]

...Hope you don't turn on your current guru the same way.

Did you really just say this?

I think your son benefitted most from the throwing drills...

You forgot to finish your statement. I'll do it for you.

.....otherwise, all the stuff I (Tom) say would be wrong.

[Ohfor]

...Whatever it is, the coach wants them to swing "later". Your drill would have them swinging "earlier".

Not really. My drill would have them swing immediately. And quickly. Very quickly. In fact, maybe with less batspeed. In fact, probably with less batspeed. A lesson they need to learn. Don't ya think?

Why not believe the coach? Why not directly answer the question of how to initiate the swing later?

When this conversation started I thought you may be knowledgeable.

Do you think a 6+ frame swing can be started earlier or later than a 5 frame (or less as DMac suggests) swing? No matter what pitch is being thrown.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it a while.

I'm curious what comes out.

And, I really am enjoying this.

[swingbuster]

Because he rotated well and it was a good start in your quest to teach your son how to swing a bat. The back foot gets to the toe and the lead leg does not quite straighten..... A-Rod does that quite often. The rotation since then has not been as good. He is stronger now and has taken thousands of more swings,

but the swing is not as good as it was then.

I said that 6 months ago when you posted them. The more narrow stance works better for him. What are you gaining from the wide base?

Your THome swing comp is an outside pitch he stayed completely back on because he recognized it and took it oppo. I don't think Thome crashes his rear foot on his best swings does he?

Did you see CHipper BHUT and flick an oppo HR last night? Effortless man

[Ohfor]

As a player in college, I always struggled with "catching up". I had no instruction and was not a good hitter.

I often wondered just what benefit bp was. Go to a big league game early. Watch bp. What good is it? I mean, anyone can hit good in bp. I could hit good in bp. So I thought.

What I thought I needed and what was not available anywhere (still isn't) was high speed live bp. I could hit in bp. What I needed was to practice hitting the fast stuff. Where do I find it? Where does anyone find it? Answer......no where.

So, how do you get better? How did the guy who can already hit 90+ learn it? He didn't have high speed live bp either. How did he find out how to do it? You say games? Well, yes. But, seems to me I played a lot of games too. I couldn't do it. DMac says "talent, son. You either have it or you don't". A lot of truth there. But, if that was ALL of the answer then there were some "nontalented" guys hitting it also. By that I mean the minor leaguers who didn't progress. Many of their problems was not "catching up" so much as "not being able to handle the off speed stuff".

Well, my drill goes a long way toward explaining the answer to these questions. I'm not saying it provides the high speed live bp. I'm saying it can show a player how quick he must become. And then he has a chance to hit the high speed live stuff.

[FiveFrameSwing]

My drill would have them swing immediately.

And that's the problem with your drill. The posters issue is that their hitter is initiating their swing "too early". Your drill promotes swinging even earlier.

A key component to hitting has to do with "timing". This person wants the timing adjusted so that their hitters swing later. Your solution is to have them perform a drill that has them swing even earlier.

Think about it. Then redraft your suggestion.

[FiveFrameSwing]

When this conversation started I thought you may be knowledgeable.

Do you think a 6+ frame swing can be started earlier or later than a 5 frame (or less as DMac suggests) swing? No matter what pitch is being thrown.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it a while.

I'm curious what comes out.

And, I really am enjoying this.

Don't be so stupid.

Any swing can be initiated "later".

Reread the poster's original post. They want their hitters to swing later. Yet you give a drill for having them swing earlier.

Too funny!

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well, my drill goes a long way toward explaining the answer to these questions.

What your drill did not address was the original question presented by the poster. What they wanted was a drill to help their hitters swing "later". Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

[swingbuster]

Teach loading patterns first and quickness next. If the loading patterns are performed well you will be a lot quicker than you think

Epstein made that issue clear when he stretched his middle finger back and let it pop on his thigh. He said you could practice raising the middle finger off your thigh and snapping it down for years and then pull it back and let it go and the latter would be 100 times faster.

Learning to use elastic energy IS quickness

[Ohfor]

What your drill did not address was the original question presented by the poster. What they wanted was a drill to help their hitters swing "later". Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Answer the question.

Can a 6 frame swing be started earlier or later than a 5 frame swing in order to hit a ball squarely.

I know you don't like the answer.

But, you need to learn what the answer means.

I'd love to help you move from elementary school.

[chesspirate]

I agree with Ohfor.

The girls are early because they are afraid of being late.
Make the swing quicker, give them the confidence that if they wait they can still pull off a good swing.

being quick in this sense is not starting earlier. And if they try and cheat with pre-pitch launching during the drills, yell at them, and tell them to do it again without cheating. They have to get to a point where they can't actually catch up to the pitch, they will do everything in thier power and still be late. From there, they will have to figure out a way of making the swing quicker, taking the slop out of it.

Once the hitter has a quicker swing thier fear of not having enough time to swing should no longer be a problem and they will have the confidence to wait, then you can tell them whatever you want about hitting the other way or up the middle.

The point is, they wont stop starting their swings early untill they are confident that they no longer have to do so.

I don't think you can just tell someone to start later at this point.
In fact that theory is right "if they are early, just start later". That is a correct statement, but if it were that easy, don't you think that it would have been taken care of by now? Don't you think the hitters would have made the adjustment themselves? or the coach? but it's not that simple, where the statement is correct, trying to convey that to a hitter is a different cup of tea.

[tadlock11]

I'm sure most have seen this illustration before. What I've found beneficial to Ohfers drill is having a hitter able to act (whether the action is the load or in most youth cases just the release) when the ball is closer to the hitter. What I believe the original posters girls are doing is "acting" when they should still be in the thinking or deciding stages according to this graphic.
BTW, let me know if it not proper to have this graphic up so I can take right back down. :D
http://xs101.xs.to/xs101/06236/AdairSwing.jpg

[Stealth]

Fiveframeswing - you need to at least rethink what ohfor is saying. His drill if done correctly will give the girls confidence to hit fast pitching. This in turn will help them realize that they have time to hit any pitching, slow or fast.

One of the drills ohfor suggested in another thread was to have kids get in a cage with a pitching machine throwing really fast. Have the kids swing just as the ball comes out, they obviously will swing early and when doing so they realize WOW I actually have time to hit this pitching speed. One thing you need to learn to be a good hitter is to try other peoples suggestions - if it works for you great, if not don't do it again.

If your high school coach says try a certain drill what are you going to do? Argue with him? I doubt it - you give it a try and see what happens. And you better do it with a smile.

Don't get cought up in all of the bickering here, try things and learn as you go. That is why we are here. Some things work and some things don't - but if we thought we knew everything about hitting we would not be on this site!

[fungo22]

The oaffie and co forward by turning is not the same thing as what buster is describing and is not the same thing as the universal sequence in the mlb swing which is why the PCR tee drills result in teaching a sequence that DMAC is unfamiliar with in mlb.

Dixon had one idea about forward by turning and Nyman tweaked it, but both are wrong. Now I understand how you discovered this "universal sequence" and how you "know" all the things you think you know: From the study of golf and paranormal phenomena.

I don't know what the latest oaffie idea is ... Focus your psychic energy and it will come to you. Wasn't this covered in Harding's book?

[Ursa Major]

Richard, I've criticized you for assuming without evidence that certain motivations have driven my perceptions of others' swings. So, I'll tread carefully here, but you're laying out certain hints that your belief that quickening the swing will give the "early" girls confidence to start their swings later is simply a projection from your experience with Brandon. You say:
The single most important thing in my son's progress was demonstrating to him the slop in his swing. Nothing I could say or do would change anything... Not until we saw a college DI player hitting against a machine, 1/3 of the way closer, did we understand that Brandon's struggles was related to swing quickness, not timing. And, within 20 swings, he was hitting the ball at that 1/3 distance........just like the college DI player. And, then and only then, did many of his swing flaws disapear. All of a sudden, there was no time for them. He was filling the time with slop. Then, the slop took over making it impossible for him to time pitches. He had to allow tiime for the swing and the slop. Now, he only allows time for the swing.

And, you can't have timing until you have swing quickness. Not until you learn just how quick a 5 frame (or less) swing is will you ever have a chance to time top pitching. It's not a cure all, but it is a vital step in the process. (Emphasis added)While I agree that some kids' bodies tell them they're swinging too slow and it may enter their minds to therefore swing earlier, I just don't think you can generalize about hitters and say they're early because they know they're slow, and making them faster will convince them at some level that they can start later.

At least four kids on my son's 11-12 y/o team (including him) have this problem of starting too early. I don't think the body's knowledge of its own "slop" is the problem for them. Unabashedly projecting from my son's experience, I think part of the problem is that they were overmatched as 9 year olds, and learned shortcuts to speed up. Slop really isn't much of an issue (except for my son!). Now that they can catch up to the ball (their swing speed increased faster than the pitcher's speed), their instincts still tell them to get out in front.

Frankly, I have better luck mixing speeds when throwing wiffle balls to them from 20 feet away so they learn they have to time the pitch and not the pitcher's motion, as they'll get destroyed by changeups. Mixing speeds is more often a better answer than putting 'em in against a faster machine. But, I think you have to really know the kid you're dealing with to know why she or he is starting early, and adjust your teaching approach accordingly.

Anyway, once you've gotten as far as you can with drills and instruction to not start early, you've got the question of what to do to adjust when the stride has commenced and the hitter realizes that he/she is too early. I like what this young fella did recently:
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn061006c.gif
What was his cue to keep his weight centered when he looked like he was doomed to lunge, Richard?

[hiddengem]

These don't look even close to the same loading pattern. Why won't you allow him to get a little weight shift back to load for power, like A-Rod? I think your son has a fine swing, but it appears to me that it is setup for Fastpitch softball. Is he swinging with wood yet, or only metal?

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn033006springfield.gif

http://img10.picsplace.to/11/arodside.gif (http://picsplace.to/)

[ssarge]

If you are not going to be a pro baseball player, why would swining w/ wood be of any concern whatsoever?

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

AROD, other differences in box

Radial deviation at wrist. Emanski spoke to this issue in 1991 tapes.

Bat 90 degrees to forearm cocked by Arod. Offie not cocked.

[Ohfor]

...Why won't you allow him to get a little weight shift back to load for power

I wish I had that kind of control over him.

[Ohfor]

...I just don't think you can generalize about hitters and say they're early because they know they're slow

I don't believe they all know they are slow. I do believe most know the general length of time it takes them to swing. They may not categorize it as slow. What they think is "my swing takes this much time, so, in order to get the barrel around I have to start now" which is early. Not until they learn to be quicker will they understand they were slow. My sons had no clue. They had a mental rhythm about their swing. A length of time it took to execute. Neither thought they were slow. And, it was almost impossible to time their swings to all pitch speeds because of the length of the swing.

I'll make a Swingbuster claim. In 20 swings or less, a player can learn that he can be quicker as a result of this drill and he can fix it relatively quickly.

The next step is a critical one. They have to memorize that quickness and take it back to the normal distance. They immediately have to learn wait. They now have reprogrammed their swing time in their mind which forces them to learn to wait.

Next time we went to the cage, we started at normal distance. Within several pitches it was obvious that they had forgotten their new found quickness. We moved closer. Relearned the quick swing. Moved back and worked on waiting.

The results were dramatic. The single most important thing I've done over the 5 years.

Brandon went off to college. A JV player getting few reps over several weeks. He forgot again. When he came home we first concentrated on the video and how this and that were not right. We couldn't get it. I finally thought to move him up closer and within a few swings he was back. Steve and others have said, "if you give the body time it will use it". Problem is it fills it with stuff that you can't overcome when it's time to launch.

For a large part of the 99% who won't play professionally, I feel this is critical. A must do. A "have to know" for the player and the coach. If you have a player that doesn't have this problem it will be obvious. Move on.

Now that Brandon is home for the summer, we are working on other things. When I detect a little lethargy that's what we do.

I don't believe the "less than best athletically gifted", the 99%, use their bodies correctly, have the proper movement patterns, and are as quick as they can be. Something needs to help them learn it.



they were overmatched as 9 year olds, and learned shortcuts to speed up.

Sounds similar to what I'm talking about.

Slop really isn't much of an issue (except for my son!).

That is hard for me to believe in a 12 year old age group. A sure sign of a swing that is not as quick as it can be is "hitting the ball out front" on almost every pitch. Only those hitters that hit the ball deep in the zone are quick.

Frankly, I have better luck mixing speeds

Obvioiusly you have to get to this point. But, if slop is there this will not eliminate it.


Anyway, once you've gotten as far as you can with drills and instruction to not start early, you've got the question of what to do to adjust when the stride has commenced and the hitter realizes that he/she is too early. I like what this young fella did recently:
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/brndn061006c.gif

Thanks, that's why I asked Steve if we're in the "ball park". I'm hoping he says we're at least entering the parking lot of the ball park. Because this has been a most difficult thing for Brandon to get. I'm still playing and I have no chance of "getting it".

What was his cue to keep his weight centered when he looked like he was doomed to lunge, Richard?

I have no idea what he was thinking at the moment. But, I know what has led to the improvement. It is the work we've done on loading. More specifically, the work we've done on getting to the loaded position (launch position, I guess) on time. The carrying of the mass forward has been a benefit of trying to reach a certain position on time. His thought process has been changed from "react and swing" (I guess. I really don't know what he was thinking prior) to "get to this position on time and see what happens". We have done a lot of work against the machine on taking pitches and getting to the launch position and deciding mentally...."was I there on time"...."could've I hit that ball if I pulled the trigger". Of course, after some of this we would hit. But I wanted to emphasize getting there on time more so than did I hit it good.

[Ohfor]

Here's another way of saying the same thing about the 99%.

Kids vary the time length of the swing to match the speed of the pitch instead of varying the length of the wait and swinging with the same quickness each time.

Not until they understand how quick the swing needs to be will this make any sense to them.

[MSandman]

Teach them how to load and you will help them.......if not, the problems will continue.

The drills that I have seen many of the kids doing........just standing there and rotating are just as bad, because now, the kids try to hit the same way and don't have a load.

I have been seeing a lot of this w/ my LL team when we face slow pitching. Most of them start their stride way too early and either hit weak popups, ground balls or miss altogether. And these are good hitters vs. "normal" or even fast pitching.

So today, we are playing for the third time a team that has pitched 2 10YO lefty very slow windup, very slow speed pitchers at us, and we've had no answer. So last night, I had my team over in my cage for some "super slow BP". I was using the cue "feel like it's almost in the catcher's glove before you swing, then try to catch up to it". And "play a game w/ yourself and see how long you can wait and still catch up".

A couple kids still struggled, one is our youngest player (10YO) and another a girl who also plays fast pitch softball, and has yet to get a hit this season. But almost every other player was ROPING the ball up the middle. I even have the bruise on the back of my right upper arm from one kid, as I get so focused sometimes on watching the hitter that I don't quite get behind the L-screen enough. ;)

We'll see today if it helped at all.

I agree w/ what Doug and others have said here about "coiling the hips during the load". I've been working on that w/ Kevin for the past week or so, showing him how to turn the hips slightly back during the first half of his stride, then how they start to open into foot plant. When he (or I) do this right, the swing launch feels quicker. When kids start from a dead standstill and apply no "negative move" (as Donny refers to it), they seem to always be early. I wonder if this is because, w/o the hip coil, there swing takes a long time to get up to speed. So in order to be able to catch up to an inside pitch, they HAVE TO start early. OTOH, if they developed more early batspeed by coiling during the stride (many coil before their stride, but lose it all during), then they might start to BELIEVE that they can wait longer and still hit all pitches?

[swingbuster]

Some good points Mike..

The hardest concept for people to get is that negative and positive moves are happening at the same time.

Coiling of the hips as you stride to hit ...the famous Williams quote...about the ahrdest thing in baseball to do is another way to say it.

When a player is coiling into his hip that is a negative move.

When the player loads some weight back and transfers it forward ...that is a positive move...it is stride momentum or carrying the weight

They are happening at the same time and at some point the neg coiling becomes forward by turning / rotating into foot plant. If the hands are going back or turning back on plane as the rotation into foot plant occurs that is when the rubber band is tightening

You cannot fail to coil into the stride and you cannot fail to uncoil into the front foot block.

The upper body action that maximizes the application of all of this is another story

[jojab]

We have done a lot of work against the machine on taking pitches and getting to the launch position and deciding mentally...."was I there on time"...."could've I hit that ball if I pulled the trigger". Of course, after some of this we would hit. But I wanted to emphasize getting there on time more so than did I hit it good.

{and...}

Here's another way of saying the same thing about the 99%.

Kids vary the time length of the swing to match the speed of the pitch instead of varying the length of the wait and swinging with the same quickness each time.

Not until they understand how quick the swing needs to be will this make any sense to them.

Good stuff, Richard. This is very helpful information.

[hiddengem]

If you are not going to be a pro baseball player, why would swining w/ wood be of any concern whatsoever?

Regards,

Scott

What, does little offie not want to play pro ball? If I were him I wouldn't wait until I have to swing wood, to swing it. It might suck to find out what happens when he puts wood in his hands, but you gotta learn sometime. Its a different world, trust me.

[Jesse]

Here's my interpretation of what's happening. I believe they're afraid of being late because they lack confidence in the quickness of their swing. They're afraid if they wait too long to initiate their swing they won't get to the ball in time. So they overcompensate and swing early. In doing so, they have to slow their swing down to compensate for swinging so early. End result: they're not only swinging early, they're swinging in slow motion. This causes their whole swing to fall apart. Even if they make great contact, they won't hit the ball well.

One of the benefits of Ohfor's drill, aside from getting rid of the slop, would be to teach these girls just how quick they are capable of swinging. Once they realize this, they'll have the confidence to wait.

Fiveframe, your advice seems to boil down to "tell them to swing later." Don't you think their coach has tried that already? Ohfor's drill would address the underlying reason why they're swinging early and fix it.

If you've worked with kids, you know that you can tell them something until you're blue in the face and they won't listen. It's one of the most frustrating aspects of parenting (and coaching). Kids need proof. Until these girls know how quick they're capable of swinging, they will continue to swing early. This drill puts them in a position of having to use the quickest, most efficient swing they're capable of. The lightbulb will come on, and you can go from there.

[hiddengem]

I wish I had that kind of control over him.

So, are you saying that you would rather him have a loading pattern more like A-Rod?

[hiddengem]

I wish I had that kind of control over him.


How did his numbers turn out this year?

[Ohfor]

I'm a little confused by your questions

We have nothing to hide. And, we've never suggested he's a star. I've said numerous times, the kid is not a prospect. Just loves to play and wants to be the best he can be. The fact he was in the lineup in a college game is a huge accomplishment for him.

I believe he was 3 for 15 or 16 in JV action at his DIII school. Two doubles, one single. All to left field. Played like 5 games over 3 months. JV players get very few reps in practice.......and anti-instruction.

I do want to follow up on ssarge's question.

Why wood bat if you're never going to play professionally?

[Ohfor]

...Why won't you allow him to get a little weight shift back to load for power, like A-Rod?

This is the part I'm referring to. How do you know I haven't asked him to load differently? Or, get a little weight shift? You assume because he doesn't do it that I don't want him to do it.

He can only learn at his pace. Which isn't the fast lane. We've worked forever on rotation and connection. I think he's good enough to move on to loading and weight shift. Steve E suggested it so we are moving on. Early results are encouraging.

His goal is to make the varsity while he gets an education. Works hard at both.

[dougmac]

The sweet spot on a wood bat is a lot smaller than on a metal bat. Using a wood bat in practice can help a youngster zero in on hitting the ball in a smaller area of the bat. It is much like the newer irons in golf. The old forged head irons had a sweet spot about the size of a pin head and the new ones have a sweet spot about the size of a silver dollar.

The smaller sweet spot forces the hitter to learn how to guide the head to the ball which will make him a better hitter. You won't get away with mis hits as much with a wood bat.

[Ohfor]

Understand.

Then again, he'll never have to use one in a game.

So, we choose not to break 'em.

[dougmac]

Dad is cheap.:D

[Erik]

Understand.

Then again, he'll never have to use one in a game.

So, we choose not to break 'em.

Ohfor,




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Major League Baseball has instructed Baum Research & Development to walk a fine line by creating a durable bat while allowing it to break at the upper limits of thick handled Major League wood. Our company is the pioneer in research to evaluate the performance of all bats including metal, wood, and composite bats, both for baseball and softball.

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The Patented AAA PRO model Baum®Bat is the only true high-tech wood composite bat, approved for minor league game use by Major League Baseball. It is also approved for NCAA and NFHS season 2005 game use.

EL,

[Ohfor]

Dad is cheap.:D

I wouldn't be if I saw benefit to him. I see none.

If he were a prospect he would never practice with metal.

Eric

I knew you were lurking.

[Erik]

I wouldn't be if I saw benefit to him. I see none.

If he were a prospect he would never practice with metal.

Eric

I knew you were lurking. YEP! YEP!

Ohfor,
Have you seen this product yet? I tried this out and I like it because I can use this when hitting live batting practice.

www.batbuster400.com



EL,

[dougmac]

I wouldn't be if I saw benefit to him. I see none.

If he were a prospect he would never practice with metal.

Eric

I knew you were lurking.


It's too bad you don't see the benefit of practicing with good wood. A guy can only see what he can see. I have tried the Baum bats and don't care for the feel of them. Tried 5-6 that high school and JC players were using in fall ball but the feel was not there. They are durable though.

[fungo22]

It's too bad you don't see the benefit of practicing with good wood. A guy can only see what he can see. I have tried the Baum bats and don't care for the feel of them. Tried 5-6 that high school and JC players were using in fall ball but the feel was not there. They are durable though. I grew up with wood bats. That's all there were. I've bought my sons 3 or 4 of them. They lasted less than a week. I don't know whether Ohfor is cheap, but I know I am. And even if I weren't, I wouldn't consider it as being among the best investments I've made. I agree with Ohfor: If he were a prospect, I'd bite the bullet. Since he ain't, I'll just shoot DMac with it.

[hiddengem]

This is the part I'm referring to. How do you know I haven't asked him to load differently? Or, get a little weight shift? You assume because he doesn't do it that I don't want him to do it.

He can only learn at his pace. Which isn't the fast lane. We've worked forever on rotation and connection. I think he's good enough to move on to loading and weight shift. Steve E suggested it so we are moving on. Early results are encouraging.

His goal is to make the varsity while he gets an education. Works hard at both.

Varsity? I didn't know that college had more than one team.

[hiddengem]

They lasted less than a week.

What does that tell you?

[fungo22]

What does that tell you? That it wasn't a good investment.

[hiddengem]

I wouldn't be if I saw benefit to him. I see none.


It would make him a better hitter, force him to have better hand eye cordination, force him to be shorter to the ball, force him to focus every swing. And not to mention, strengthen his hands. But I know you don't like to hear that one.

Those are some pretty good benefits, I would think.

[hiddengem]

That it wasn't a good investment.

Maybe that your kids are getting away with subpar swings?

[hiddengem]

That it wasn't a good investment.

I don't need a shitload of broken bats to tell me that my son is not as good a hitter as you.

All you need is one..when it cracks put a nail in it and tape it up. How do you think I learned? I could by a dozen wood bats for the price of these stupid metal bats you dads are buying. Talk about a dumb investment. These companies have everybody snowed into buying $300 dollar bats.

[fungo22]

Maybe that your kids are getting away with subpar swings? Subpar? You think?

I know all about the wooden bat standard. I know it takes a better hitter to use one. I don't need a shitload of broken bats to tell me that my son is not as good a hitter as you.

[hiddengem]

I don't need a shitload of broken bats to tell me that my son is not as good a hitter as you.

I solved that problem for you.

[fungo22]

I could by a dozen wood bats for the price of these stupid metal bats you dads are buying. Talk about a dumb investment. These companies have everybody snowed into buying $300 dollar bats. Now this I agree with. The prices on metal bats is a joke. I refuse to pay more than $75 for one. All companies make a "generic" model that is less expensive than the others with the same amount of pop. If my sons want some fashionable model that costs more than that, they pay the diffference.

[hiddengem]

Now this I agree with. The prices on metal bats is a joke. I refuse to pay more than $75 for one. All companies make a "generic" model that is less expensive than the others with the same amount of pop. If my sons want some fashionable model that costs more than that, they pay the diffference.

Well, you are few and far between. These compainies feast on dads with too much pride to buy the cheap bat that performs just the same.

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor said: The next step is a critical one. They have to memorize that quickness and take it back to the normal distance. They immediately have to learn wait. They now have reprogrammed their swing time in their mind which forces them to learn to wait.

Next time we went to the cage, we started at normal distance. Within several pitches it was obvious that they had forgotten their new found quickness. We moved closer. Relearned the quick swing. Moved back and worked on waiting.

The results were dramatic. The single most important thing I've done over the 5 years. Well, I'll tell you. I can sit here and tell you why I think your drill is counter-intuitive. But, ya know what? I'll never know sitting here at my computer. Next time at the cages, I'll run Ursa Minor to the 75 MPH cage for a couple rounds -- and he usually can catch up to those after ten swings -- and then run him back to the 55 MPH machine with that "memorize your quickness" cue and see if it helps. If not, I'll go look for another rabbit and another hat. And, for the cost of the three rounds at the cage, you'll owe me a $3 discount on my first burger at Teacherman's. ;)

[Erik]

It's too bad you don't see the benefit of practicing with good wood. A guy can only see what he can see. I have tried the Baum bats and don't care for the feel of them. Tried 5-6 that high school and JC players were using in fall ball but the feel was not there. They are durable though.

Dougmac,
I agree the bats might not have the feel for everyone. I don't think they make enough models. I just think they're very durable like you said. I just tried the maple Prairie Sticks bats. This is a nice bat made in Canada. www.Prairiesticks.com



EL,

[Ohfor]

Varsity? I didn't know that college had more than one team.

Yeah, varsity. He's a marginal player. Always has been. Would be a great story if he made the varsity next year and ended up playing by the time he's a junior or senior.

If that's beneath you, so be it. Not everyone gets or wants to play for money. Some just love the challenge.

I have never stated it any differently.

I will say this, since you want to make it more personal than just a group of guys advising those who post clips....(BTW, if you don't want the advice there is a sure way to avoid it) Taking my son from where he was at the beginning of this quest, to where he is now, is at least equal to, and in my opinion a much larger and more difficult task, than taking you, or the likes of you (professional players; good/great athletes) and getting them to the big leagues.

[Ohfor]

... strengthen his hands. But I know you don't like to hear that one.



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http://www.gbraleague.com/gonzo.gif http://www.gbraleague.com/Dortiz.gif

http://www.gbraleague.com/JDDrewcollege.gif http://www.gbraleague.com/mac7.gif http://www.gbraleague.com/MRamirez_side.gif



The one thing I finally figured out tonight is the whole "Merry go round" analogy. What they are saying is true, and I must have some pretty dam strong hands and arms to do what I do. Some guys on this team call me "easy pop". But I now understand that I power "my" merry- go- round with my arms to get my torso going. And the hitters that they show around here use their stomach and oblique muscles to get it going...

http://img10.picsplace.to/11/DMSacHR.gifhttp://img10.picsplace.to/11/DMsacHR1.gif

http://img8.picsplace.to/img8/16/DMMemphis.gif

[Ohfor]

Who had the guts to say what he saw?

[swingbuster]

You think a cross stride can inhibit a full hip turn? Compare the best hip turns to the cross stride. See the hips get choked down before completion?

[dougmac]

I grew up with wood bats. That's all there were. I've bought my sons 3 or 4 of them. They lasted less than a week. I don't know whether Ohfor is cheap, but I know I am. And even if I weren't, I wouldn't consider it as being among the best investments I've made. I agree with Ohfor: If he were a prospect, I'd bite the bullet. Since he ain't, I'll just shoot DMac with it.

Heck Greg, I knew you were cheap:D but I don't think Richard is cheap, just stubborn. If the bats only last a week in BP, then they are flawed or the swing needs some work. Anyone that does not think that using a good wood bat can help improve the young hitter has either not played with wood, forgotten what it was like to play with wood, or is just cheap.

[fungo22]

You are no more able to understand postmodern epistomology/depth psychology "Postmodern epistemology" is pretty close to an oxymoron. Postmodernists have intellectually abandoned their right to know anything in any objective sense of the term.

Insanity is trying the same stuff and expecting different results. Is that why you keep posting the same thing over and over?

[GFK]

...Anyone that does not think that using a good wood bat can help improve the young hitter has either not played with wood, forgotten what it was like to play with wood, or is just cheap.

I just wish the bat makers would make some out of a lighter cheaper wood for use by kids 11 and under. My kids love using wood. I buy the cheap ones at Walmart because they are lighter. We did go through several before they figured out they needed not hit it off the handle.

My sons and I agree with you with respect to using wood to improve your swing. Just need to keep buying the cheap ones. Bottom line, I am cheap but I know you speak the truth when you say hitting with wood in batting practice is a move toward a better swing.