Feds Investigate D-Backs Reliever for 'Roids

[rockin500]

Federal investigators searched Arizona Diamondbacks reliever Jason Grimsley’s house Tuesday as part of their investigation of steroid use in baseball.

Thirteen agents searched Grimsley’s house in Scottsdale, Ariz., for six hours, according to Internal Revenue Service Agent Mark Lessler, who would not say what they found.

In seeking a judge’s permission for the search, investigators who cracked the BALCO steroid scandal here said Grimsley initially cooperated in the probe. He withdrew his assistance in April, but not before he allegedly made “extensive statements” about illegal drug use, “for the purpose of performance enhancement,” according to the court documents.


Read the rest here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13173947/

pretty crazy story out there in arizona. Gotta think thats going to affect the team some, let alone him.

[trosmok]

Will the kangaroo court of public opinion now demand asterisks by the batting records of all players who faced him in his 16 year career? I mean, since he is being investigated, he's guilty, and those that tried to swing a bat against him, and he cheated when they were playing fair and square, all 822 MLB players with at leats one AB against him should be given extra credit, right? See how this nonsense of tainted records, when taken to the logical extreme becomes highly illogical? I hope the Diamodbacks can quickly get this behind them and focus on playing ball in that tough, tough, division.

[Alibi Ike]

Grimsley is ammo for the "PEDs don't make you a better player" camp.

Gotta think thats going to affect the team some, let alone him.

This has the potential to get uglier if the names that were named wind up getting released. Although I am no fan of Bonds, the more random pitchers and lower-tier players that wind up being implicated is better to get a grasp on the whole situation. I still think with the focus on the sluggers who may have been using, far too many others are being let off gently.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Grimsley is ammo for the "PEDs don't make you a better player" camp.



This has the potential to get uglier if the names that were named wind up getting released. Although I am no fan of Bonds, the more random pitchers and lower-tier players that wind up being implicated is better to get a grasp on the whole situation. I still think with the focus on the sluggers who may have been using, far too many others are being let off gently.

Yeah, which is why we saw more lesser names being released to the public during last year.

[Hammerin Hank]

Trosmok: I think you're right. I will hold nothing against batters who cheat by using PEDs anymore. I'll stop bashing Bonds, in fact, I'll start supporting him.

What ought to happen is since we can't tell which players are steroid abusers, all players should use them so that way there's even competition and no records will be tainted. It should be mandatory that as soon as you enter the MLB you get a syringe in your ass.[/sarcasm]

[BoofBonser26]

Trosmok: I think you're right. I will hold nothing against batters who cheat by using PEDs anymore. I'll stop bashing Bonds, in fact, I'll start supporting him.

What ought to happen is since we can't tell which players are steroid abusers, all players should use them so that way there's even competition and no records will be tainted. It should be mandatory that as soon as you enter the MLB you get a syringe in your ass.[/sarcasm]
:clapping :clapping :clapping

[csh19792001]

:clapping :clapping :clapping

:clapping x10

[Chelle]

Trosmok: I think you're right. I will hold nothing against batters who cheat by using PEDs anymore. I'll stop bashing Bonds, in fact, I'll start supporting him.

What ought to happen is since we can't tell which players are steroid abusers, all players should use them so that way there's even competition and no records will be tainted. It should be mandatory that as soon as you enter the MLB you get a syringe in your ass.[/sarcasm]

:clapping X100

[Hammerin Hank]

Wow, it is usually a very negative response whenever I go into sarcasm mode...:D

[Knick9]

Trosmok: I think you're right. I will hold nothing against batters who cheat by using PEDs anymore. I'll stop bashing Bonds, in fact, I'll start supporting him.

What ought to happen is since we can't tell which players are steroid abusers, all players should use them so that way there's even competition and no records will be tainted. It should be mandatory that as soon as you enter the MLB you get a syringe in your ass.[/sarcasm]


Wow, that blew me away. :laugh

:clapping X1,000

[Whitesoxnut]

Decifering Lawyer'ese;)


PHOENIX - Jason Grimsley, who was cut by the Arizona Diamondbacks on Wednesday after admitting to steroid use, was only a pawn in federal agents' attempt to gather evidence against Barry Bonds, Grimsley's attorney told the Arizona Republic.

According to Grimsley's lawyer Edward F. Novak, the feds tried to pressure Grimsley into wearing a listening device to lure other players into confidential conversations, all in an effort to find evidence against Bonds of steroid use.

"It was a specific effort to target Bonds," Novak told the Republic. "We were told that Jason's cooperation was necessary to their case."

So......This lawyer is saying his guy was a "pawn" to gather evidence against Bonds. As if the agents, even if it were true, would tell them Bonds is the target. And as if Grimsley has contact with Bonds, or even knows him. I agree its all very possible but isn't that the job of Law Enforcement? To try and get evidence, and get offenders to cooperate? And isn't it the job of a good lawyer to put out spin and make his client look like the victim?

Authorities tracked a package containing two “kits” of human growth hormone — about a season’s supply — that was delivered at Grimsley’s house on April 19, court documents released Tuesday showed.

Moments later, agents armed with a warrant offered him an option: Cooperate with their investigation into athletes using performance-enhancing drugs, or submit to an immediate search. Grimsley agreed to be interviewed.

This is ridiculous. when you have a search warrant you go in regardless of anything. Regardless of cooperation, noncooperation, whatever. This statement is laughable:D

Novak told the Republic that Grimsley was coerced into the interview, as they threatened to make a big show of the search.

As compared to what? A small show?

"They specifically told him, don't call a lawyer," Novak said. "They let him know that if he didn't cooperate they basically would terrorize his family and come in with guns drawn and lights flashing."

There is no way the Feds, in such a high profile investigation, would try and deny this guy his lawyer. He had already made incriminating statements and was now, no doubt, trying to stonewall the investigation. But the spin about the Feds, basically would terrorize his family and come in with guns drawn and lights flashing." :eek: What? Like in the movies? Yes.....coppers always shoot up houses, terrorize with guns, turn on their lights...ect with baseball players who take growth hormones/amphetamines. If I were a Fed I would want to do it at least 9 times a week. MLB players on juice are more dangerous then a boatload of Al Qaeda and I would want at least 10 machineguns backing me up in such a raid.

Here's my favorite tho.........Selig did release a statement on MLB.com, saying "I am deeply saddened whenever there is an allegation that a Major League Baseball player is involved in the use of performance-enhancing substances. Because this is an ongoing criminal investigation, I will not make any comment about this specific case. As a general matter, however, I urge everyone associated with Major League Baseball - from the players to the union to the owners - to cooperate with the ongoing investigations by the Federal government and by former Senator George Mitchell."

The great reformer speaks. :crazy

[trosmok]

Witch Hunt

[Brownie31]

This is now reaching the point where the Black Sox
scandal was when Eddie Cicotte told all to the Grand
Jury. It is leaving the pure speculation stage.

Ironically, Cicotte, like Grimsley, was a veteran
pitcher.

It is time for a new commissioner-an independent
person of high standards. Can you say General
Colin Powell?

Brownie31

[Chris from NY]

What ought to happen is since we can't tell which players are steroid abusers, all players should use them so that way there's even competition and no records will be tainted. It should be mandatory that as soon as you enter the MLB you get a syringe in your ass.[/sarcasm]

Now there's an idea! Move over Bud Selig, here comes Hank! :D :clapping

[trosmok]

..... his guy was a "pawn" to gather evidence against Bonds. As if the agents, even if it were true, would tell them Bonds is the target.....

We shall see; it very possibly could be another ruse to catch the big fish. This Novitzky guy has had some vendetta against Bonds since the git go, the truth be damned. Reminds me of that Santa Barbara DA, Thomas Sneddon and his personal campaign to destroy a certain entertainer's life.

[Knick9]

This is now reaching the point where the Black Sox
scandal was when Eddie Cicotte told all to the Grand
Jury. It is leaving the pure speculation stage.

Ironically, Cicotte, like Grimsley, was a veteran
pitcher.

It is time for a new commissioner-an independent
person of high standards. Can you say General
Colin Powell?

Brownie31

Nah, Powell is retired. Let the old man have a vacation! :laugh

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the hunt intensifies on Bonds. I still believe to this day that Selig has no backbone whatsoever. He needs to go. He is very partial in what he does and when he is under pressure, he overlooks details. Way to go. :rolleyes:

[jwkfs]

Deadspin.com (http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php) claims to have knowledge of some of the blacked out names in the affidavit, including Sammy Sosa, and trainer Chris Mihlfeld -- who is Albert Pujols' personal trainer :(.

Note that the article doesn't say that Pujols' name is mentioned, merely that his personal trainer is named as having referred Grimsley to a source from which he could obtain steroids and amphetamines.

[sandlot]

Dear Whitesoxnut: No offense, but I fear that, like many of our countrymen, you have far too much faith in the prosecutorial and law enforcement agencies. That faith, it hurts to say, is sadly misplaced. I say this as one who has spent much of his life around, and even in, the criminal justice system. I won't repeat in full what I've posted elsewhere, only to say that vast amounts of ego and very significant career rewards are at play in this whole story, about which there has been from the start more than a whiff of racism -- and I refer not just to Bonds but to Latino players as well. Time will bear out this depressing point, and Grimsley's own previously quoted statements regarding amphetamines and their source underlines the point. Grimsley is indeed a pawn, and apparently a not very gutsy one at that, though we should give him credit if in fact he drew the line at wearing a wire. Trust me on this: They would have carefully assessed his personality and character before scripting their moves and making their threats, and he reacted as their scenario predicted, save possibly for the wire. Now, let's see, as they'll need eventually to get someone who's white dragged in, so as to deflect any charges of racism, and they desperately need someone famous as well, and as they're trawling the D-backs anyway, hmmmm.... I wonder.. is there anyone who's spent time in that dugout, and who's been performing at a very high level beyond when his chronological age suggests that he ought to be, and who is now playing around other players who've admitted to using PEDs or something that might have been? Nah, can't think of anyone. Guess they only care about Grimsley.

[Jake83]

Someone watches a little to much TV...............WhiteSoxnut

[john1972]

Dear Whitesoxnut: No offense, but I fear that, like many of our countrymen, you have far too much faith in the prosecutorial and law enforcement agencies. That faith, it hurts to say, is sadly misplaced. I say this as one who has spent much of his life around, and even in, the criminal justice system. I won't repeat in full what I've posted elsewhere, only to say that vast amounts of ego and very significant career rewards are at play in this whole story, about which there has been from the start more than a whiff of racism -- and I refer not just to Bonds but to Latino players as well. Time will bear out this depressing point, and Grimsley's own previously quoted statements regarding amphetamines and their source underlines the point. Grimsley is indeed a pawn, and apparently a not very gutsy one at that, though we should give him credit if in fact he drew the line at wearing a wire. Trust me on this: They would have carefully assessed his personality and character before scripting their moves and making their threats, and he reacted as their scenario predicted, save possibly for the wire. Now, let's see, as they'll need eventually to get someone who's white dragged in, so as to deflect any charges of racism, and they desperately need someone famous as well, and as they're trawling the D-backs anyway, hmmmm.... I wonder.. is there anyone who's spent time in that dugout, and who's been performing at a very high level beyond when his chronological age suggests that he ought to be, and who is now playing around other players who've admitted to using PEDs or something that might have been? Nah, can't think of anyone. Guess they only care about Grimsley.

This is precisely why Craig Biggio, a player who perfectly fits the bill as performing at a high level beyond his chronological age, will NEVER been mentioned in connection with PED's. Does anyone other than Bonds pose a better example than this guy as someone who's benefitting from the main effects of HGH, specifically a unnatural boost to the system to aid in extending one's career.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the home run hitters as the main suspects yet it's those players who perform at above average levels late in their careers who should be the most targeted.

[Taco De Muerte]

Here's an interesting tidbit from an article - And then something happened. Grimsley became a different pitcher. A better pitcher through chemicals, at least according to the IRS affidavit filed after his two-hour sing-a-long with a federal agent in April. The affidavit mentions that Grimsley turned to Deca Durabolin, a hardcore steroid, to recover from shoulder surgery in 2000. The affidavit does not specify if that was his original entrée into the world of performance-enhancing drugs. But the document includes admissions from Grimsley that he also used human growth hormone (HGH), amphetamines and Clenbuterol in addition to the steroids. The chemicals kept him in the major leagues.

Was the $19,000 or so he spent on HGH alone worth it? The guy who was stuck in Class AAA Buffalo at 31 went on to earn $9 million in the big leagues. His ERA dropped from 5.39 to 4.21. His hits and walks per inning dropped from 1.67 to 1.44. He wasn't a star, but Grimsley was good enough to get regular work for the first time in his life. And while we fixate on Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro and a few other high-profile names connected with what we now call the Steroid Era, Grimsley reminds us that there are many, many more -- by the hundreds -- who carved out less spectacular careers by cheating.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/06/07/grimsley.steroids/&e=15314&sa=X&oi=news&ct=result&cd=2

This, along with other boatloads of evidence debunks the common misconception that steroids/greenies do not benefit pitchers.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I still think with the focus on the sluggers who may have been using, far too many others are being let off gently.

I agree but that's how we work. We focus in more on those who have a greater impact. We wouldn't expect cops to stakeout a 7-11 to catch gum thiefs, and we wouldn't compare that crime of theft to a stolen car. Different impacts In this case, cheating is cheating, but some benefit more and will be critiqued more harshly.

Let's get some names out there shall we.

111 players have been suspended since baseball's new steroids policy was implemented prior to the 2005 season. More than half (52 percent) have been pitchers.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2474192

[Sultan_1895-1948]

This, along with other boatloads of evidence debunks the common misconception that steroids/greenies do not benefit pitchers.

Your first mistake is to lump greenies and steroids together as if they're equal in enhancing performance.

I assume you're referring to a misconception here among Fever members that steroids do not benefit pitchers? Can you provide quotes of this opinion? I haven't read any of that.

There are certainly benefits, aside from a possible mental edge depending on the user...its stamina and recovery. I really don't think we can compare the benefits for pitchers to that of hitters though. Hitters take this battle in a landslide imo, and it certainly doesn't hurt their cause that the game is specifically geared and tailored for them to mash. Pointless to even discuss really. Users are users and should all be treated as such.

btw: I'll give anyone 5:1 odds on Gagne's name not being one of the black-outs, or never coming up in the future. 10 dollar bet. Any takers?

[Little Left Hander]

I'm just waiting to hear who Jason Grimsley named. We will all find out before long.

[sandlot]

Worth recalling here that an affidavit is simply a statement from the investigators, in this case, and does not consitute proof of anything. Nor is it a charge of anything. It is a version -- their version -- of events and it is subject to challenge (as it almost certainly would be if ever used in any proceeding). The authorities will put in only what is convenient, and will leave out whatever is either convenient or inconvenient to their purposes, especially if they might have been pushing the boundaries of proper procedure. As Grimsley has, according to his lawyer, ceased co-operation, you can be sure nothing that makes him look good will be left in the affidavit. It will leave the impression that he has given information, so as to make them look better, to make Grimsley look worse and to worry others who might be fearing a knock at their door as well. Where I live, this is called "killing chickens to scare monkeys." Also, the "names" of other persons supposedly given by Grimsley reportedly have been blacked out -- another way to make nervous players even more nervous? It could well be that Grimsley never uttered a single name, but that the investigators did, and he just responded. But the authors of the affidavit would never spell that out. It's just not how the game is done. Now, let's all take a big breath, sit back and see if and when Grimsley is ever charged, and if so, for what. In the great scheme of things, this guy is very small fry; he's the minnow you hook to catch the game fish. It also sounds -- and I raise it no higher than that -- like he might have been stung.

[trosmok]

Wow, it is usually a very negative response whenever I go into sarcasm mode...:D

Nothing but positive for that one, Hammerman;:clapping Taking things to the logical extreme (a syringe in every can) makes your point all the more, well, pointed.

Sandlot and Sultan have made some very valid arguments as well, and I'd simply like to add at this point is that of the 111 suspended players, over half were pitchers, as sultan quoted, but not mentioned unless you count them, is that 90% are minor leaguers! Many of them are Grimsley type guys that are struggling to make the show, and in spite of more rigorous testing, risked so much for a perceived edge. This is a problem that needs to be addressed, and not by one frustrated ex-jock turned IRS investigator.

[Brian McKenna]

the grimsley case just shows that baseball players are still using peds and that they are more concerned with skirting the regulations than abiding by them

[west coast orange and black]

sandlot: grimsley is indeed a pawn, and apparently a not very gutsy one at that, though we should give him credit if in fact he drew the line at wearing a wire.
apparently, the feds searched grimsley's home only after he refused to wear a wire -- ostensibly to catch a bigger fish. which brings up...

sandlot: ...vast amounts of ego and very significant career rewards are at play in this whole story
the balco case was handled as a run-of-the-mill drug case instead of a sweeping landmark case involving drugs in baseball. the feds made fools of themselves and have been trying to rectify that.
however, things still smell fishy despite this fact because...

sandlot: from the start more than a whiff of racism -- and i refer not just to bonds but to latino players as well.

[west coast orange and black]

bkmckenna: the grimsley case just shows that baseball players are still using peds and that they are more concerned with skirting the regulations than abiding by them
so, baseball players reflect society-at-large, then?

[Brownie31]

bkmckenna: the grimsley case just shows that baseball players are still using peds and that they are more concerned with skirting the regulations than abiding by them
so, baseball players reflect society-at-large, then?

Indeed, they do. So do football, basketball and hockey
players. They come from society-at-large.

Brownie31

[west coast orange and black]

^^ i'm with you on this.
so, why haven't we heard or read stories related to these and other sports?
sandlot has a clue.

[Chelle]

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

[Taco De Muerte]

Your first mistake is to lump greenies and steroids together as if they're equal in enhancing performance.


Fair enough, though, the difference may not be as big as you think - And atleast with roids, work is needed to reap from it's benefits, unlike greenies.

Check out a tidbit from this article - "Now I'm walking around, I'm going, 'I don't know how I'm going to do this. There's no way that I can go play this game today.' I ran into my teammate who I knew had some of the 'little helpers,' as they called them.

"He said, 'Take one of these. It should help. It'll take the edge off.'

"So sure enough, I took one. He goes, 'OK, you can take two, but no more than two.' So I popped one more, and I went out and went 3-for-4 with two homers."

According to retrosheet.org, Leyritz is referencing a Saturday, June 30 game in 1990 against the White Sox, where he went 3-for-5 with two homers and four RBI.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2476681



I assume you're referring to a misconception here among Fever members that steroids do not benefit pitchers? Can you provide quotes of this opinion? I haven't read any of that.

I have read it before, I'm not making this up to make it up.



There are certainly benefits, aside from a possible mental edge depending on the user...its stamina and recovery. I really don't think we can compare the benefits for pitchers to that of hitters though. Hitters take this battle in a landslide imo, and it certainly doesn't hurt their cause that the game is specifically geared and tailored for them to mash. Pointless to even discuss really. Users are users and should all be treated as such.

And I disagree. I believe they benefit both a lot, just in different ways. For a pitcher, they help you with recovery, stamina, allowing you to pitch longer, and the added strength to throw harder. For a hitter, again, recovery, stamina, the added strength to hit the ball harder.

[Brownie31]

^^ i'm with you on this.
so, why haven't we heard or read stories related to these and other sports?
sandlot has a clue.

Lyle Alzado? Ben Johnson? Dexter Manley?

Brownie31

[BoweryBoys]

"Worth recalling here that an affidavit is simply a statement from the investigators, in this case, and does not consitute proof of anything. Nor is it a charge of anything. It is a version -- their version -- of events and it is subject to challenge"

This is where you are more then slightly wrong. An affidavit is a legal document filed with a court and signed under penalty of perjury. It is a form of oath used by investigators, only after having shown just cause and reasons to be allowed to file said document, or the court doesn't accept the filing. It is not simply a statement by investigators in which they can basically say what they want. Each particular item is subject to both perjury and misconduct charges if it can be shown there was deliberate intention to mislead the court. A filing of an affidavit by investigators in a criminal investigation is merely an official step in which to inform the court of an attention to possibly bring indictments.

It seems that the baloney spin of Grimsley's lawyer is already working. Take the spotlight off of those who actually are engaging in illegal conduct and make it seem like those investigating their client have some agenda, not that their client wouldn't even be under an investigation if he just hadn't been doing something wrong in the first place.

[west coast orange and black]

boweryboys: Take the spotlight off of those who actually are engaging in illegal conduct and make it seem like those investigating their client have some agenda

illegal activity and agenda of investigators: both can be occurring simultaneously. no?

[Chelle]

The bloggers are going a great job of taking the spotlight off....and putting it on everyone else. Speculating who are the redacted names. Already people are coming forward and saying it's not them.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/06/09/grimsley.trainer/

[Mattingly]

I'm curious, why in the world is the IRS investigating him? I'd think it would be the US Attorney's Office or some other branch of the federal government. Does he owe back taxes on steroids sold but not accounted for on April 15th?

[Brownie31]

I'm curious, why in the world is the IRS investigating him? I'd think it would be the US Attorney's Office or some other branch of the federal government. Does he owe back taxes on steroids sold but not accounted for on April 15th?

It was taxes that sent Al Capone away.

Brownie31

[ESPNFan]

Fair enough, though, the difference may not be as big as you think - And atleast with roids, work is needed to reap from it's benefits, unlike greenies.

Check out a tidbit from this article - "Now I'm walking around, I'm going, 'I don't know how I'm going to do this. There's no way that I can go play this game today.' I ran into my teammate who I knew had some of the 'little helpers,' as they called them.

"He said, 'Take one of these. It should help. It'll take the edge off.'

"So sure enough, I took one. He goes, 'OK, you can take two, but no more than two.' So I popped one more, and I went out and went 3-for-4 with two homers."

According to retrosheet.org, Leyritz is referencing a Saturday, June 30 game in 1990 against the White Sox, where he went 3-for-5 with two homers and four RBI.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2476681





I have read it before, I'm not making this up to make it up.





And I disagree. I believe they benefit both a lot, just in different ways. For a pitcher, they help you with recovery, stamina, allowing you to pitch longer, and the added strength to throw harder. For a hitter, again, recovery, stamina, the added strength to hit the ball harder.

Well Leyritz comments in in direct contrast with what Buster Onley said about the players realizing now that they are not using amphetamines that there was just mainly a placebo effect with them.

And as far as pitchers and Hitters go, if they helped each group the same and as the positive tests show a lot of pitchers were taking them why didnt the offensive numbers during the steroid era spike? I'm not saying they don't help pitchers but a few mph on your heater is nowhere near the advantage as all your deep flys now leaving the yard.

[Mattingly]

It was taxes that sent Al Capone away.

Brownie31
Oh, was that it? I'd thought it was RICO stuff or shaking guys down for payments, sending humongous goons their way if uncooperative. :D

Anyway, I figured that if it were about taxes, the IRS would try determining whether or not he'd distributed any kinds of PEDs for sale. If so, how much money did he make off these sales, and therefore, how much in taxes did he owe upon these unreported sales?

When you're talking naming names, redacted names on memos, I start to think that it's a criminal investigation of some kind. Other than non-payment of taxes, I've never known that the IRS was involved in this. The FBI, I can see, but not the IRS. Can anyone fill me in, please?

[Jake83]

IRS is most likely involved because of money not being claimed on taxes. With black market sales of any product the IRS will create and cause the most damage because then they will seize alot of your property even if it wasn't bought with money made off illegal activities.

[Mattingly]

IRS is most likely involved because of money not being claimed on taxes. With black market sales of any product the IRS will create and cause the most damage because then they will seize alot of your property even if it wasn't bought with money made off illegal activities.
I can understand that, but is it the IRS or another branch of the DOJ (US Dept of Justice), such as the FBI, that is investigating the players themselves? You know, as to who is to be named amongst the players that Grimsley may eventually name?

Or would it be the sports media and/or Bud Lite's office conducting the investigation?

[rockin500]

Oh, was that it? I'd thought it was RICO stuff or shaking guys down for payments, sending humongous goons their way if uncooperative. :D

Anyway, I figured that if it were about taxes, the IRS would try determining whether or not he'd distributed any kinds of PEDs for sale. If so, how much money did he make off these sales, and therefore, how much in taxes did he owe upon these unreported sales?

When you're talking naming names, redacted names on memos, I start to think that it's a criminal investigation of some kind. Other than non-payment of taxes, I've never known that the IRS was involved in this. The FBI, I can see, but not the IRS. Can anyone fill me in, please?
money laundering, squirreling money away, stuff like that which is what usually happens in illicit activities all causes the IRS to become involved since it all falls under the tax evasion realm. I do believe they work pretty closely together on these kinds of cases.

[Jake83]

I can understand that, but is it the IRS or another branch of the DOJ (US Dept of Justice), such as the FBI, that is investigating the players themselves? You know, as to who is to be named amongst the players that Grimsley may eventually name?

Or would it be the sports media and/or Bud Lite's office conducting the investigation?


Remember the Heidi Fless situtation about 10 years back this has so many reminders of that and only person who was named was Charlie Sheen and he took the bullet and I see Grimisley taking the bullet on this because then MLB will welcome him back into the community.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: when you're talking naming names .... i've never known that the irs was involved in this.

balco started out as an irs investigation, two-three.
oftentimes easier to get a foot in the door that way, then bring in the heavies once they got something to use as leverage.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I'm not saying they don't help pitchers but a few mph on your heater is nowhere near the advantage as all your deep flys now leaving the yard.

Exactly. The stamina/recovery aspect to me is the main advantage. Adding a few MPH means very little when facing today's hitters in today's offensively geared game. You don't get to the big show without being able to hit a fastball over the plate, no matter how fast it might be.

[Taco De Muerte]

Exactly. The stamina/recovery aspect to me is the main advantage. Adding a few MPH means very little when facing today's hitters in today's offensively geared game. You don't get the big show without being able to hit a fastball over the plate, no matter how fast it might be.

Right, but the game being geared for offense already has NOTHING to do with how much steroids or amphetamines could benefit pitchers.

More velocity on a fastball - Usually leads to more K'S. Therefore, your a more effective, stronger, more durable pitcher. The article on Jason Grimsley clearly shows how steroids, HGH, and amphetamines made him a better pitcher than he was before.

[Mattingly]

money laundering, squirreling money away, stuff like that which is what usually happens in illicit activities all causes the IRS to become involved since it all falls under the tax evasion realm. I do believe they work pretty closely together on these kinds of cases.
You're talking about accusations in general, or the forementioned Al Capone thing?

Say someone has laundered money, done loan sharking, etc. The IRS finds this out. They then use a prosecuting agency (FBI, US Atty's Office, etc) to go after the other felonies, which you'd named?

So since the IRS is involved, then Grimsley is not just accused of having taken PEDs, but distributing them also? I thought it was just usage.

Still, with the so-called naming of names, I figure that's not an IRS issue, since others using these wouldn't be anything about distribution or money illegally earned. That's why I figure that another branch of the Feds would be involved in that aspect.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Right, but the game being geared for offense already has NOTHING to do with how much steroids or amphetamines could benefit pitchers.

More velocity on a fastball - Usually leads to more K'S. Therefore, your a more effective, stronger, more durable pitcher. The article on Jason Grimsley clearly shows how steroids, HGH, and amphetamines made him a better pitcher than he was before.

It has everything to do with it.

Velocity is nothing without command.

[Mattingly]

Remember the Heidi Fless situtation about 10 years back this has so many reminders of that and only person who was named was Charlie Sheen and he took the bullet and I see Grimisley taking the bullet on this because then MLB will welcome him back into the community.
Yeah, I remember that one. Sheen became the Fall Guy, and after reading a little about him and Denise Richards, he's taking it again. That's rough.

Now let's see if Grimsley's songbook gets published with names, which some judge decided wasn't going to happen to Fleiss' "Little black book", or if names are named, a la Jose Canseco. I'd be very interested in knowing whose name was alleged and their reactions to this. Any documentation would be quite popular for the so-called "inquiring minds" out there who wish to know.
two-three: when you're talking naming names .... i've never known that the irs was involved in this.

balco started out as an irs investigation, two-three.
oftentimes easier to get a foot in the door that way, then bring in the heavies once they got something to use as leverage.
So the "heavies" would be the prosecutors?

[Taco De Muerte]

It has everything to do with it.

Velocity is nothing without command.

Right, which is why they could benefit elite pitchers the most, as with hitters. The more talent and workethic you have, the better benefits you will most likely recieve.

I think Charles Yesalis said it best with this comment - Yesalis adds steroids also can help a top-level pitcher.

"With a few exceptions," he says, "almost every pitch is improved with more power."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-02-23-scholars-steroids_x.htm

[rockin500]

You're talking about accusations in general, or the forementioned Al Capone thing?

Say someone has laundered money, done loan sharking, etc. The IRS finds this out. They then use a prosecuting agency (FBI, US Atty's Office, etc) to go after the other felonies, which you'd named?

So since the IRS is involved, then Grimsley is not just accused of having taken PEDs, but distributing them also? I thought it was just usage.

Still, with the so-called naming of names, I figure that's not an IRS issue, since others using these wouldn't be anything about distribution or money illegally earned. That's why I figure that another branch of the Feds would be involved in that aspect.
distribution is also one of the things that Grimsley is involved with. thats when the IRS becomes involved. at least thats what i am reading into things.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: so the "heavies" would be the prosecutors?

well, there are prosecutors of several kinds, irs included.
but, yeah, the ones who open investigations involving drugs and trafficking. now, irs don't play. but we're talking about federal prosecutors whose departments put people away for a while.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Right, which is why they could benefit elite pitchers the most, as with hitters. The more talent and workethic you have, the better benefits you will most likely recieve.

I think Charles Yesalis said it best with this comment - Yesalis adds steroids also can help a top-level pitcher.

"With a few exceptions," he says, "almost every pitch is improved with more power."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-02-23-scholars-steroids_x.htm

I agree that adding a few MPH to your fastball will slightly increase your margin for error as a pitcher, however that pitcher must have command for that edge to mean anything. Also, what you're either not understanding, or purposely ignoring, is that the slight advantage in that area is wiped out and then some, by factors in todays game which have skyrocketed the hitters margin for error, whether they are on steroids or not.

[Jake83]

Yeah, I remember that one. Sheen became the Fall Guy, and after reading a little about him and Denise Richards, he's taking it again. That's rough.

Now let's see if Grimsley's songbook gets published with names, which some judge decided wasn't going to happen to Fleiss' "Little black book", or if names are named, a la Jose Canseco. I'd be very interested in knowing whose name was alleged and their reactions to this. Any documentation would be quite popular for the so-called "inquiring minds" out there who wish to know.

So the "heavies" would be the prosecutors?


But the difference was Grimsley's names are just baseball players and Fleiss had LA politicos and Hollywood royalty which payed to not have the book seen.

[Mattingly]

But the difference was Grimsley's names are just baseball players and Fleiss had LA politicos and Hollywood royalty which payed to not have the book seen.
I'm still wondering why the top guys in Hollywood would even need that kind of service. As often as they're criticized for having "groupies", you'd think they'd never need this.

Still, without getting crass or insulting to the women here, I figure that some Hollywood actor or exec may pay $2,000 or so to Fleiss for her employees "services", or they could pay the same amount to a PED supplier. In both cases, neither want themselves and/or their employers exposed, so I can see there being tons of reasons to not have their names revealed.

What if a player has some promotion out, has a reputation for clean living. This could certainly hurt his endorsement deals, including termination of these for a "morals clause" type of thing, saying they neither mix themselves up with uncouths, as did Denny Neagle, nor do they use tainted drugs.

I consider the ballplayers the closest to "royalty" here, but even that I'm not sure about. You won't find any making $20m a movie like Jim Carrey and Tom Cruise, but with PEDs and new contracts, there's lots of incentive to increase, prolong or improve upon their performance.

[Jake83]

I'm still wondering why the top guys in Hollywood would even need that kind of service. As often as they're criticized for having "groupies", you'd think they'd never need this.

Still, without getting crass or insulting to the women here, I figure that some Hollywood actor or exec may pay $2,000 or so to Fleiss for her employees "services", or they could pay the same amount to a PED supplier. In both cases, neither want themselves and/or their employers exposed, so I can see there being tons of reasons to not have their names revealed.

What if a player has some promotion out, has a reputation for clean living. This could certainly hurt his endorsement deals, including termination of these for a "morals clause" type of thing, saying they neither mix themselves up with uncouths, as did Denny Neagle, nor do they use tainted drugs.

I consider the ballplayers the closest to "royalty" here, but even that I'm not sure about. You won't find any making $20m a movie like Jim Carrey and Tom Cruise, but with PEDs and new contracts, there's lots of incentive to increase, prolong or improve upon their performance.


It wasn't the actors but the presidents and board members of the studios.

[Taco De Muerte]

I agree that adding a few MPH to your fastball will slightly increase your margin for error as a pitcher, however that pitcher must have command for that edge to mean anything.

Right, which is why Yesalis said " top level pitchers ". If you already have good control, can throw hard, steroids will only make that better. Assuming you properly use them.

Also, what you're either not understanding, or purposely ignoring, is that the slight advantage in that area is wiped out and then some, by factors in todays game which have skyrocketed the hitters margin for error, whether they are on steroids or not.

No, I do understand. I know today's game is geared for offense. That still however doesn't excuse pitchers who take illegal drugs to " enhance " their performance.

[ESPNFan]

Right, which is why they could benefit elite pitchers the most, as with hitters. The more talent and workethic you have, the better benefits you will most likely recieve.

I think Charles Yesalis said it best with this comment - Yesalis adds steroids also can help a top-level pitcher.

"With a few exceptions," he says, "almost every pitch is improved with more power."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-02-23-scholars-steroids_x.htm

Charles Yesalis in the same link also says the following....

Yesalis, author of the book Anabolic Steroids in Sport and Exercise, says steroids produce greater muscle mass and that translates into faster bat speed.

Batting power is generated by muscles in the player's forearms, shoulders and especially the hips, all areas that can be improved with steroids.

"That increased bat speed means he can wait longer on the pitch," he says. "Even if the contact is not solid, the added power will give the ball more velocity."

He adds that more power can turn an infield ground ball into an outfield hit "and turn a regular home run into a tape-measure home run."

Ok your an MLB player who do you think Steroids are going to help more?
Guys like Beckett and Farnsworth throw gas and still get taken deep.
According to your source batters can wait longer on pitches and hit for a higher average and hit more homeruns.

Couple that with the risks pitcher take with their tendons in their pitching arms on steroids. It would not surprise me to see top level pitchers actually stay away from Steroids as the added velocity could increase the likelyhood of career changing catastophic injuries.

[sandlot]

"Worth recalling here that an affidavit is simply a statement from the investigators, in this case, and does not consitute proof of anything. Nor is it a charge of anything. It is a version -- their version -- of events and it is subject to challenge"

This is where you are more then slightly wrong. An affidavit is a legal document filed with a court and signed under penalty of perjury. It is a form of oath used by investigators, only after having shown just cause and reasons to be allowed to file said document, or the court doesn't accept the filing. It is not simply a statement by investigators in which they can basically say what they want. Each particular item is subject to both perjury and misconduct charges if it can be shown there was deliberate intention to mislead the court. A filing of an affidavit by investigators in a criminal investigation is merely an official step in which to inform the court of an attention to possibly bring indictments.

It seems that the baloney spin of Grimsley's lawyer is already working. Take the spotlight off of those who actually are engaging in illegal conduct and make it seem like those investigating their client have some agenda, not that their client wouldn't even be under an investigation if he just hadn't been doing something wrong in the first place.With respect, I think I am more than slightly right and I am not victim to the baloney of Grimsley's lawyers, thank you. I have just spent large significant amounts of my time around prosecutors at many levels, and in different societies, and my view of their work is justifiably jaundiced -- as is my view of many lawyers for the defense, but that's another story. As to an affidavit: Yes, of course it is a legal document -- a declaration -- and, yes, it is filed with a court under oath. However, it is an ex parte document, not inter partes, which in layman's terms means that at the time of its filing it is unchallenged by the other side -- that is, by definition, it is one party's views only, however solemnly given. It is their complaint, and it sets out what the investigators say are the basic facts. In this sense, as you will know but others might not, it is completely different from a deposition[/]. This is pure procedure and on this we have no disagreement.

I would further contend that it is filed by investigators to [I]support their original contention that they have just cause to proceed with the possible filing of charges subsequently, and that they are acting in good faith. Almost any judge, when approached by federal investigators -- who say they are investigating a possible felony and who have a suspect named and plausible reasons for that suspicion -- will grant approval for the Feds to proceed with the filing of an indictment. What is contained in the eventual affidavit must support the Feds' request or else the judge could, as you imply, accuse them of making the court an accessory in a fishing expedition and apply penalties. But "just cause" is a long, long way from being any standard of proof, which was my point in raising this to begin with: Many persons reading these stories will think, erroneously, that an affidavit ipso facto carries evidentiary weight, but it doesn't. It is, as I wrote and maintain, the investigators' version of events and it is unquestionably open to challenge and verification in the event of any subsequent prosecution. That is the very reason why and how investigators can be, and sometimes are punished for having misled courts and having made perjurious statements. The court would have no way to assess the investigators' version without challenge by the defense. And of course, logically speaking, it would make no sense for sanctions against perjury and misleading the courts to exist in the first place, if in fact investigators never misled courts or committed perjury, would it?

This leads to another key point that followers of this story should be aware of: Not every affidavit filed by prosecutors necessarily leads to a charge, much less to a prosecution. In fact, not every affidavit filed by investigators is even intended to lay the ground for a charge. Filing an affidavit creates very significant pressures and generates publicity, as it has in this case. It is an action that can be and often is intended to apply pressure on an individual or a group, and to encourage people with knowledge to come forward. It is an important investigative tool. Charges can be brought, brought and modified/bargained/dropped, or not brought at all.

In short, an affidavit is not an an indictment, and neither an affidavit nor an indictment constitutes proof of anything.

I repeat, Grimsley is a small fry, not a big fish. Canseco, e.g., has admitted actions that go far beyond the reception of HGH in the mail (which not incidentally, being interstate, provides the Feds with jurisdiction), but where is the prosecution of those admitted violations of the law? And this guy is making profits from the sale of a book based on admission of apparently criminal activities, including the distribution of a banned substance. Prosecution is sometimes selective, isn't it?

[Taco De Muerte]

I really don't see what's the big deal about HGH. It's pretty much no good without using it with forms of steroids.

Here's a quote from an article - Growth hormone is a powerful anabolic hormone that affects all body systems and plays an important role in muscle growth. Animal experiments have shown that growth hormone can partially reverse surgically induced muscle atrophy and weakness. Growth hormone administration to normal animals leads to muscle hypertrophy, but this muscular growth is not accompanied by increased strength.

Also - Although there is no scientific evidence documenting an improvement in athletic performance following growth hormone supplementation, it is reported that this practice is becoming more widespread among athletes wishing to avoid detection with current doping control measures.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3299611&dopt=Abstract

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I really don't see what's the big deal about HGH. It's pretty much no good without using it with forms of steroids.


"Pretty much" no good?

Not accusing him of anything, but they could do wonders in a case like Ryan Howards, where he was basically jobbed of several "should have been" major league seasons, because he was stuck behind Thome. He got to the show late. HGH can make him feel 19 again. Its something the body naturally produces, but also naturally declines as you age. If we naturally produce it and it makes us grow and become stronger, you don't think re-feuling would have a positive impact? Come on Taco.


After the age of 20, the hormone release rate greatly decreases, and by the age of 30 most people start to notice an acceleration in the aging process. One of the leading factors involved in this decline is the decreased production of HGH. Arguably the most important hormone in your body, HGH, or HGH, is produced by the pituitary gland in your brain.

Research indicate that your body produces about 15% less of the hormone with each successive decade. The hormone increases your metabolism. HGH stimulates virtually all of the various systems in your body. Human Increase Hormone is often referred to as the "fountain of youth hormone" due to its youth-promoting benefits. helping to break down fat, build proteins and create lean muscle. As you get older and your body begins to produce less of the human increase hormone, you start to notice that you look and feel older.

http://www.homepagez.com/buyhgh/hgh.html



Here's a quote from an article - Growth hormone is a powerful anabolic hormone that affects all body systems and plays an important role in muscle growth. Animal experiments have shown that growth hormone can partially reverse surgically induced muscle atrophy and weakness. Growth hormone administration to normal animals leads to muscle hypertrophy, but this muscular growth is not accompanied by increased strength.


How do muscles become larger without increasing strength? Could you elaborate on that please?


Also - Although there is no scientific evidence documenting an improvement in athletic performance following growth hormone supplementation, it is reported that this practice is becoming more widespread among athletes wishing to avoid detection with current doping control measures.


Let's hold our breath for that study, shall we. Maybe Bud is our man for that one. Okay, so he forces half of the AL teams to take HGH, and somehow makes sure the other half does not. Then we track their performances in major league conditions for a long enough period to gain a reliable sample size. Then we compare them against eachother. Still holding your breath? Good.

The effects of HGH on humans have been studied and tested on people for over 40 years. HGH has received an astounding amount of press in the last few years, largely due to a 1998 clinical study conducted by the National Institute of Aging. The results of this study have been described as "too good to be true" and "miraculous" by the medical community.

http://www.homepagez.com/buyhgh/hgh.html

[Brian McKenna]

the balco case was handled as a run-of-the-mill drug case instead of a sweeping landmark case involving drugs in baseball. the feds made fools of themselves and have been trying to rectify that.
however, things still smell fishy despite this fact because...

sandlot: from the start more than a whiff of racism -- and i refer not just to bonds but to latino players as well.

the government, racism?? -- any other excuses or others to place the blame for the taint on the game?

perhaps the blame lies on the ballplayer's parents-in-law since they wanted their daughters to marry a millionaire - oh, but maybe the player wasn't married - damn, that's not a solid escape for the players

[Gamingboy]

I smell a witch hunt... meaning there be dark days ahead.

[Mattingly]

It wasn't the actors but the presidents and board members of the studios.
Oh, the execs of the studios. I'm not too sure they make more than $10m/yr, but since they need that kind of stuff, I'm not too sure I'd call them "royalty". Perhaps the Stephen Spielbergs and Harvey Weinsteins of the Hollywood world (even though they both live in NY, I think).

With the $10m salary, do these guys in Hollywood or at least TV make that? When you make that kind of money, you can afford more, be it PEDs or the "other stuff" (which I'm not too crazy about discussing here). There mere fact that one makes big money, is up for a contract, wants to get past a certain milestone (like Raffy's 3,000th hit) could mean one takes something for awhile, then if the results are promising, could lead to addiction.

If the guy's popular, this could lead to his buddies getting interested in his elixir of choice.

[ESPNFan]

I really don't see what's the big deal about HGH. It's pretty much no good without using it with forms of steroids.

Here's a quote from an article - Growth hormone is a powerful anabolic hormone that affects all body systems and plays an important role in muscle growth. Animal experiments have shown that growth hormone can partially reverse surgically induced muscle atrophy and weakness. Growth hormone administration to normal animals leads to muscle hypertrophy, but this muscular growth is not accompanied by increased strength.

Also - Although there is no scientific evidence documenting an improvement in athletic performance following growth hormone supplementation, it is reported that this practice is becoming more widespread among athletes wishing to avoid detection with current doping control measures.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3299611&dopt=Abstract

That abstract was dated 1987.....:clapping

[ESPNFan]

But meanwhile back in 2006....

But the big change has to involve HGH. The club official sees HGH becoming far more prevalent, and one doctor who's been around major-leaguers for years disputed the notion that HGH by itself won't add power.

The doctor said, "It helps a player train longer. If a player hit 50 percent more home runs [with steroids], he might hit [another] 20 percent more home runs with HGH."

http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-sphey314682890mar31,0,3238917.column?coll=ny-rightrail-columnist

[Metal Ed]

It has everything to do with it.

Velocity is nothing without command.


Just going to play devil's advocate for a minute here....

Remember Sandy Koufax? He didn't get good until he started throwing a little less than as hard as he could. His catcher convinced him that he could get hitters out at 95 mph rather than 100, because he could locate at 95 mph but he couldn't locate at 100 mph.

Now to our hypothetical pitcher who's on steroids. Say he can hit 92 throwing all-out but loses some location by doing so. But throwing slightly less than all-out, he can locate great at 88 mph and makes an OK pitcher. He's decent now but he's not Greg Maddux. He takes steroids and his maximum velocity goes from 92 to 96. But he still can't locate worth a darn throwing all-out at 96. But he also doesn't have to throw as hard as he possibly can now to reach 92. Maybe he can locate at 92 now. Who knows. I am not a pitching coach and I don't work with pitchers who are on steroids. But I am guessing that they might be a significant help to pitchers.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Just going to play devil's advocate for a minute here....

Remember Sandy Koufax? He didn't get good until he started throwing a little less than as hard as he could. His catcher convinced him that he could get hitters out at 95 mph rather than 100, because he could locate at 95 mph but he couldn't locate at 100 mph.

Now to our hypothetical pitcher who's on steroids. Say he can hit 92 throwing all-out but loses some location by doing so. But throwing slightly less than all-out, he can locate great at 88 mph and makes an OK pitcher. He's decent now but he's not Greg Maddux. He takes steroids and his maximum velocity goes from 92 to 96. But he still can't locate worth a darn throwing all-out at 96. But he also doesn't have to throw as hard as he possibly can now to reach 92. Maybe he can locate at 92 now. Who knows. I am not a pitching coach and I don't work with pitchers who are on steroids. But I am guessing that they might be a significant help to pitchers.

Koufax is a prime example of velocity not meaning everything. He still threw damn hard, but the ability to locate other pitches, and the hitter respecting those other pitches, is what made his fastball more effective when he could then control it better.

[ESPNFan]

Koufax is a prime example of velocity not meaning everything. He still threw damn hard, but the ability to locate other pitches, and the hitter respecting those other pitches, is what made his fastball more effective when he could then control it better.

Im certainly no expert on pitching but as a lifelong baseball fan i think the most important skills/talents for a pitcher to have are:

Command. If you can't locate your pitches your not going to get anyone out consistantly.

Movement. A laser straight 97 mph fastball isn't anywhere near as confounding to hitters as a 92 mph heater with late movement.
And obviously its even more important for breaking and offspeed offerings.

Delivery. If you can hide or confuse a bater with your throwing motion your going to be more successful(ala El Duque etc...), where as if your delivery lets hitters see the ball or if you tip your pitchers your going to get crushed.

Velocity. Faster is better but only if you can control it. and Changing speeds is just as important,(maybe more), as throwing hard.

[sandlot]

the government, racism?? -- any other excuses or others to place the blame for the taint on the game? perhaps the blame lies on the ballplayer's parents-in-law since they wanted their daughters to marry a millionaire - oh, but maybe the player wasn't married - damn, that's not a solid escape for the playersYes, "the government, racism." Should that be surprising? But to point out the base motivations that can inspire investigators and prosecutors has nothing whatsoever to do with absolving anyone of responsibility or providing escape. Please notice that I use the word "responsibility," not "blame." I have zero interest in blame. But it is important to apportion responsibility, and for people to acknowledge responsibility for their actions (and attitudes) and then to accept that responsibility. That goes for the prosecution, the defense, the judge and the jury. No one's exempt. Let me go at this at some length, because I find myself feeling like so many others that enough is enough.

Anyone reading through these boards cannot fail to notice that in recent weeks there has been a growing backlash against the witch-hunting, the blaming, the shaming, the hectoring, the finger pointing, and the application of Scarlet Letters (Hawthorne understood the notion of being "tainted" and how much is countrymen loved to assign blame, even back then). Labeling is so easy, and so much fun. Especially when done in a group. A fine tradition even older than baseball. What's an asterisk in the baseball records, really, if not a scarlet letter being pinned to an offending statistic to show that, unlike all the others, this one's impure? Impure, that's what tainted means.

That was Hester Prynne's crime, remember? Impurity. Being tainted. That's why they stuck the crimson letter on her just like a great big asterisk. But god forbid that anyone should have the temerity to point out that basbeball's records are not now and never have been, pure; or that there has always been a little ******* cork in the wood-bat pile. This is sacrilege, work of the devil, not to be tolerated. To admit the records are impure would be to absolve the syringe-wielders of their "blame." Worse, it robs the morality police of the their "right" to self-righteously attach asterisks to records like little pieces of colored cloth pinned to offenders of the majority.

Fact is, the general level of the PEDs discussion has sunk to a level where many people want no more of it. They are now at least as turned off by the detractors of the PED's users as they are by the users themselves. Don't take my word -- go through the boards and look at the posts. When Arthur Miller wanted to take on McCarthyism, he used the metaphor of the Salem witch trials. References to both the anti-communist witch hunts and the Salem-era trials are being made, repeatedly, in these boards, and with increasing frequency. That is I why refer to a story written in the years when those trials were stilll living memory. The moralistic attitudes portrayed therein are alive and well, an enduring cultural legacy.

Those who like to bash the PEDs users, be warned: Keep it up and you will soon turn the users and alleged users from targets of scorn into figures of sympathy. Is that what you really want? Worth remembering that the father of Hester's illegitimate child was a minister -- ah, hypocrisy -- and Prynne herself ended up a figure beloved by other women because she was a symbol of what was wrong with male society's attitudes toward women. Heroes may yet be made yet of Canseco -- a prime letter-attacher himself --and of Bonds, Palmeiro, et al., and, if it happens, those who bash will have only themselves to blame.

[trosmok]

I can understand that, but is it the IRS or another branch of the DOJ (US Dept of Justice), such as the FBI, that is investigating the players themselves? You know, as to who is to be named amongst the players that Grimsley may eventually name?....

No one gave you an accurate or complete answer to this so I'll try, Donny Baseball. The IRS investigators are more plentiful, and far more widely distributed around the country than any other branch of the Justice Dept., so early groundwork is usually laid by them. The DOJ's war on drugs has usually originated with the IRS guys, rather than the FDA, for the reasons mentioned above. I'm currently working with a number of federal investigators regarding mortgage fraud and property flipping, and it is usually the IRS folks doing the grunt work; the heavies only weigh in when they have enough grounds for indictments. Fees collected by inflated appraisals, brokers fees used to deceive out-of-state lenders are seldom fully reported as income by the crooked realtors, which gives the IRS initial jurisdiction. Same with ill-got gains of pharmaceutical suppliers selling illegal products; not many folks put drug related income on their 1040 return.

In the BALCO/Bonds case, it was Jeff Novitzky of the IRS that blew a knee out in his playing days, and was a gym rat that decided he could gain greater glory by bringing down a big fish, than he could on the ballcourt. Six years ago he heard about designer and undetectable products being made available in the bay area, and went to work. His personal agenda, while perhaps justified to the folks that are seeking the moral high ground in this debate, is as self-serving as Sneddon's vendetta against Michael Jackson.

Now that the Feds have found a stool pigeon, Congress will be turning up the heat, and more valuable time and resources will be wasted on yet another minor issue. Election year, yah know? If you ask 100 people in your legislative district what their top ten concerns facing them that congress should address, not one would mention steroids, HGH, or greenies in baseball, I guarantee. Yet the posturing and grandstanding gang will milk this scandal for all they can instead of focusing on important social issues. Now if the use of PEDs was mandatory for MLB players, it might warrant congressional attention.

[west coast orange and black]

sandlot: Fact is, the general level of the PEDs discussion has sunk to a level where many people want no more of it.

ballplayer to me within this past week: "i just wish all this stuff would just go away. i'm tired of it."

[west coast orange and black]

bkmckenna: the government, racism?? -- any other excuses or others to place the blame for the taint on the game?

perhaps the blame lies on the ballplayer's parents-in-law...

apples and oranges.
federal prosecutors (and the general public) have indeed shown a certain bias towards the suspected/admitted users.

however, i have made no claim as to who is to blame for the actual substance abuse - the taint on the game - by athletes.
if that was a backdoor way of asking, though: the athletes themselves, not the parents-in-law of the athletes.

[sandlot]

No one gave you an accurate or complete answer to this so I'll try, Donny Baseball. The IRS investigators are more plentiful, and far more widely distributed around the country than any other branch of the Justice Dept., so early groundwork is usually laid by them. The DOJ's war on drugs has usually originated with the IRS guys, rather than the FDA, for the reasons mentioned above. I'm currently working with a number of federal investigators regarding mortgage fraud and property flipping, and it is usually the IRS folks doing the grunt work; the heavies only weigh in when they have enough grounds for indictments. Fees collected by inflated appraisals, brokers fees used to deceive out-of-state lenders are seldom fully reported as income by the crooked realators, which gives the IRS initial jurisdiction. Same with ill-got gains of pharmaceutical suppliers selling illegal products; not many folks put drug related income on their 1040 return.

In the BALCO/Bonds case, it was Jeff Novitzky of the IRS that blew a knee out in his playing days, and was a gym rat that decided he could gain greater glory by bringing down a big fish, than he could on the ballcourt. Six years ago he heard about designer and undetectable products being made available in the bay area, and went to work. His personal agenda, while perhaps justified to the folks that are seeking the moral high ground in this debate, is as self-serving as Sneddon's vendetta against Michael Jackson.

Now that the Feds have found a stool pigeon, Congress will be turning up the heat, and more valuable time and resources will be wasted on yet another minor issue. Election year, yah know? If you ask 100 people in your legislative district what their top ten concerns facing them that congress should address, not one would mention steroids, HGH, or greenies in baseball, I guarantee. Yet the posturing and grandstanding gang will milk this scandal for all they can instead of focusing on important social issues. Now if the use of PEDs was mandatory for MLB players, it might warrant congressional attention.Many thanks for this, Trosmok. Lots of solid info and I think you're right on target. I'm indebted to you for linking better than I did or could, the smallness of one individual's personal agenda with the public's wider and legitimate concerns. Re the IRS: Tax evasion, though by no means easy to prove, is a damn sight less difficult to investigate and prosecute than are many other forms of professional criminality. The list of underworld kingpins who've gone up on tax charges is a long one.

[bigtrain]

No one gave you an accurate or complete answer to this so I'll try, Donny Baseball. The IRS investigators are more plentiful, and far more widely distributed around the country than any other branch of the Justice Dept., so early groundwork is usually laid by them. The DOJ's war on drugs has usually originated with the IRS guys, rather than the FDA, for the reasons mentioned above. I'm currently working with a number of federal investigators regarding mortgage fraud and property flipping, and it is usually the IRS folks doing the grunt work; the heavies only weigh in when they have enough grounds for indictments. Fees collected by inflated appraisals, brokers fees used to deceive out-of-state lenders are seldom fully reported as income by the crooked realtors, which gives the IRS initial jurisdiction. Same with ill-got gains of pharmaceutical suppliers selling illegal products; not many folks put drug related income on their 1040 return.

In the BALCO/Bonds case, it was Jeff Novitzky of the IRS that blew a knee out in his playing days, and was a gym rat that decided he could gain greater glory by bringing down a big fish, than he could on the ballcourt. Six years ago he heard about designer and undetectable products being made available in the bay area, and went to work. His personal agenda, while perhaps justified to the folks that are seeking the moral high ground in this debate, is as self-serving as Sneddon's vendetta against Michael Jackson.

Now that the Feds have found a stool pigeon, Congress will be turning up the heat, and more valuable time and resources will be wasted on yet another minor issue. Election year, yah know? If you ask 100 people in your legislative district what their top ten concerns facing them that congress should address, not one would mention steroids, HGH, or greenies in baseball, I guarantee. Yet the posturing and grandstanding gang will milk this scandal for all they can instead of focusing on important social issues. Now if the use of PEDs was mandatory for MLB players, it might warrant congressional attention.

Great piece of info. I have to disagree on an opinion issue though. I believe you are absolutely correct on the ranking of the average public's concerns on steriods in baseball. Let's face it, not that big of a priority in the non-baseball fan's mind and for that matter some baseball fan's minds. But at the same time I think if a crime is committed the person should be punished. Why have rules if they are not going to be enforced?

At the same time I do agree with you that this is being blown out of proportion and certain people and politicians are attaching themselves to this case when they should be dealing with more important issues.

By the way, nice work on bringing up the Tom Sneddon comparison. Never thought of it that way. But at the same time can you blame him. I mean if you found a cause where you thought you were making a big impact and gathering a lot of attention to a cause, would you walk away? I know if I was on a role I would keep going and see where it ends.

[Taco De Muerte]

"Pretty much" no good?

Not accusing him of anything, but they could do wonders in a case like Ryan Howards, where he was basically jobbed of several "should have been" major league seasons, because he was stuck behind Thome. He got to the show late. HGH can make him feel 19 again. Its something the body naturally produces, but also naturally declines as you age. If we naturally produce it and it makes us grow and become stronger, you don't think re-feuling would have a positive impact? Come on Taco.






How do muscles become larger without increasing strength? Could you elaborate on that please?



Let's hold our breath for that study, shall we. Maybe Bud is our man for that one. Okay, so he forces half of the AL teams to take HGH, and somehow makes sure the other half does not. Then we track their performances in major league conditions for a long enough period to gain a reliable sample size. Then we compare them against eachother. Still holding your breath? Good.

Hmm, in the link you posted it says "buyHGH ". It seems like a site trying to promote the stuff. What a surprise that it will be talking about how " good " it works.

From what I've read and heard from people who have experimented with the stuff, it's almost useless WITHOUT using it with steroids.

But believe what you want, we all know what you want to believe.

[ESPNFan]

Hmm, in the link you posted it says "buyHGH ". It seems like a site trying to promote the stuff. What a surprise that it will be talking about how " good " it works.

From what I've read and heard from people who have experimented with the stuff, it's almost useless WITHOUT using it with steroids.

But believe what you want, we all know what you want to believe.

Can I ask you a legitimate question? Do you really believe what you post about HGH or is it just some elaborate joke. Are we on punked? Where is Ashton?:noidea

HGH is, in simple terms, what makes us grow. To say that it only "works" in concert with steroids is just ignorant.

Do you know what acromegaly is? Its a rare disease where the pituitary gland creates so much growth hormone that the entire body grows at an abnormal rate sometimes creating a Neanderthal look. Andre the Giant the Pro Wrestler had acromegaly. He was about 7" tall and 500 lbs. He died young at 44 because his condition also enlarged his organs etc to a point where it put a severe tax on his health especially his heart.

HGH is one of the key factors in the body's creation of IGF-1 or insulinlike growth factor a substance which Will Carrol has already said players are using. We are talking about a substance that caused a man to grow 7' and weigh 500 lbs, a substance that doctors give to children to help them grow. To say that this substance would be of no use to an athlete looking for a quicker way to add a few pounds more muscle and boost his metabolism without steroids is simply negligent.

How someone can raise a stink about a guy before the turn of the century injecting himself with ground animal testicles but dismiss a known a scientifically verified anabolic substance is simply mind boggling.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Hmm, in the link you posted it says "buyHGH ". It seems like a site trying to promote the stuff. What a surprise that it will be talking about how " good " it works.

From what I've read and heard from people who have experimented with the stuff, it's almost useless WITHOUT using it with steroids.

But believe what you want, we all know what you want to believe.

You could find the same info on any HGH website. Just because they're selling the stuff, you shouldn't discredit the products effects. Bad mistake.

What I want to believe? As if I really give a rats a-hole? If the stuff was shown not to work, I'd have no qualms about sharing that opinion. I'm interested in the truth. You seem to be hell-bent on spreading your dismissal of all things involved. "None of it helps," "its nothing without other forms," "oldtime players ate cow semen, blah blah."

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Can I ask you a legitimate question? Do you really believe what you post about HGH or is it just some elaborate joke. Are we on punked? Where is Ashton?:noidea

HGH is, in simple terms, what makes us grow. To say that it only "works" in concert with steroids is just ignorant.

Do you know what acromegaly is? Its a rare disease where the pituitary gland creates so much growth hormone that the entire body grows at an abnormal rate sometimes creating a Neanderthal look. Andre the Giant the Pro Wrestler had acromegaly. He was about 7" tall and 500 lbs. He died young at 44 because his condition also enlarged his organs etc to a point where it put a severe tax on his health especially his heart.

HGH is one of the key factors in the body's creation of IGF-1 or insulinlike growth factor a substance which Will Carrol has already said players are using. We are talking about a substance that caused a man to grow 7' and weigh 500 lbs, a substance that doctors give to children to help them grow. To say that this substance would be of no use to an athlete looking for a quicker way to add a few pounds more muscle and boost his metabolism without steroids is simply negligent.

How someone can raise a stink about a guy before the turn of the century injecting himself with ground animal testicles but dismiss a known a scientifically verified anabolic substance is simply mind boggling.

Yeah, but Andre the Giant just got "bigger," he didn't get "stronger." :laugh

[Taco De Muerte]

You could find the same info on any HGH website. Just because they're selling the stuff, you shouldn't discredit the products effects. Bad mistake.

I never completely dimissed it, but I believe you could find better articles on the net to support your arguement than sites trying to sell the stuff.

Hell, I could show you sites trying to endorse protein shakes, and taking about how great they are, that doesn't mean it's necessarily true.



What I want to believe? As if I really give a rats a-hole? If the stuff was shown not to work, I'd have no qualms about sharing that opinion. I'm interested in the truth. You seem to be hell-bent on spreading your dismissal of all things involved. "None of it helps," "its nothing without other forms," "oldtime players ate cow semen, blah blah."

Please show me onetime where I said steroids don't help. Ofcourse they help. Players wouldn't take them knowing the health-risks they cause if they didn't help. They help everyone who uses them. Some more than others.

However, I don't get bent out of shape about this issue. Whether or not you want to " dock " bonds for not having a so-called " natural " decline phase is your business, not mine.

But you shouldn't be annoyed or upset when others point out the drug use of the players of yester-year.

BTW, quick question, did you ever read this article ? - http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060522/zirin

Quote from article -But Ruth didn't just stop at the watering hole to find an edge. According to The Baseball Hall of Shame's Warped Record Book, by Bruce Nash, Allan Zullo and Bob Smith, the Bambino fell ill one year attempting to inject himself with extract from a sheep's testes. This effort by more than a few athletes of his era to seek the healing and strengthening properties of testosterone prefigured the craze for steroids. When Ruth fell ill from his attempted enhancement, the media was told that Ruth merely had "a bellyache."


Now, since you claim to do tons of research on Ruth, what are your thoughts on this, and how true is this claim ?

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Yeah, but Andre the Giant just got "bigger," he didn't get "stronger." :laugh

Yeah, I fought the guy one time. Kicked his butt, no problem. Thought two left jabs and my overhand right would put him down, but he was such a wussed-out weakling, my first left jab flattened him.

Yup, Andre the Giant was lucky if he could lift 100 pounds. And he was 7'5", by the way. But our 1'3" height difference meant nothing. Neither did his enormous reach advantage, the fact his hands were bigger around than my thighs (and I'm BIG), etc., etc.

BHN

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Quote from article -But Ruth didn't just stop at the watering hole to find an edge. According to The Baseball Hall of Shame's Warped Record Book, by Bruce Nash, Allan Zullo and Bob Smith, the Bambino fell ill one year attempting to inject himself with extract from a sheep's testes. This effort by more than a few athletes of his era to seek the healing and strengthening properties of testosterone prefigured the craze for steroids. When Ruth fell ill from his attempted enhancement, the media was told that Ruth merely had "a bellyache."


Now, since you claim to do tons of research on Ruth, what are your thoughts on this, and how true is this claim ?

lol, "claim," as if I'm really a huge admirer of Johnny Evers, but I'm "fronting" as a Babe Ruth fan :rolleyes:

Well its funny...I emailed the author of that "article" and never received a response. In the email I was polite and straight forward with my question towards him and he chose not to respond. Maybe he's just too busy making up other stuff. Its a book called the "Hall of Shame" Taco. If you were trying to sell books, would you accuse Ping Bodie of something, or Babe Ruth? His linking Babe's '25 bellyache to sheep testes?

To answer your question, I put absolutely zero stock in that claim, and in over a decade of research on Ruth, this is the first I've ever heard such a thing. Maybe you should ask around this board and see if other Ruth researchers have heard of it. My guess is no. So the question falls back on you. Why would such a groundbreaking truth only show up in a book that just so happens to be titled "Hall of Shame?" Wouldn't Smelser or Creamer or Wagenheim or Reisler have at least mentioned such a revelation?

The dark side of Ruth is out there for all to see. He had warts. He had several large warts, just like you and me. Writers have went to great lengths to uncover good and bad with him. Its not as if everything written about him is a fluff piece. There's a theory he was poisoned by gamblers and there's a theory he ate too many hot dogs. There's also the popular theory it was syphillus, which was a rumor started by Barrow, and something which would not require surgery and leave a several inch scar like he had. Now apparently, there's this one theory that he injected sheep testes. Lord knows he needed the help. He must have been ashamed of his career performance up to that point.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Sultan, do you have a big thing for self-flagellation? If so, and if you live within a hundred miles of a big city, why not spend some money once or twice a month on a real good professional dominatrix? You'll get your jollies in a big way; your need to expiate your perceived guilt will be mollified; the young woman will surely be grateful; and you won't drive yourself and other regulars nuts.

In other words, since you KNOW it's inevitable that, in Neil Young's words, you're just pissing in the wind, why not give up? All you're doing is giving the misanthrope his gratification. I am quite certain you realize as much, because I know you to be a bright guy. To paraphrase a great 60's slogan, what if they gave a torrent of abuse, and nobody listened?

You know?

BHN

[trosmok]

.... I mean if you found a cause where you thought you were making a big impact and gathering a lot of attention to a cause, would you walk away? I know if I was on a role I would keep going and see where it ends.

Depends entirely on the cause. I actively campaigned for the induction of James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey to the Hall of Fame without success for over ten years. I bugged the members of the VC, every sportswriter who had a smidgen of interest in the Negro Leagues, the Commissioner, and even Ol' Buck O'Neil every year around selection time. When I heard the Negro League candidates would be facing their last chance due to changes in the process I was furious. Imagine my satisfaction when he finally received the honor he so richly deserved in the latest class of those enshrined in Cooperstown, which I like to think I helped acheive, in my own persistent but low-key way.

Pursuing a witch hunt that the steroids scandal has become is more likened in my mind to McCarthyite red scare, the homophobic wedge of gay marriage bans, atheistic challenges to the phrase "In God we trust" on coins, protests against the DaVinci Code film, violence in reaction to cartoons, or any other so-called cause that is all bluster with no substance. Plus, there are already laws on the books forbidding the MLB banned substances that are at issue; why not simply enforce them? Bottom line is I guess I prefer a quiet joust with windmills over shouting hate from the courthouse steps.

[ESPNFan]

Sultan, do you have a big thing for self-flagellation? If so, and if you live within a hundred miles of a big city, why not spend some money once or twice a month on a real good professional dominatrix? You'll get your jollies in a big way; your need to expiate your perceived guilt will be mollified; the young woman will surely be grateful; and you won't drive yourself and other regulars nuts.

In other words, since you KNOW it's inevitable that, in Neil Young's words, you're just pissing in the wind, why not give up? All you're doing is giving the misanthrope his gratification. I am quite certain you realize as much, because I know you to be a bright guy. To paraphrase a great 60's slogan, what if they gave a torrent of abuse, and nobody listened?

You know?

BHN


I agree completely. Sultan you have a better chance of convincing Carl Evertt Dinosaurs exsisted. There is a reason why he completely pretends my post refuting his doesnt exsist, and then brings up something on Ruth to you that could and probably is a complete fabrication, or at the very least wild speculation. It's basicly because he'd rather deal with fantasy that supports his point of veiw than with facts that refute it. He's basicly a propagandist.
How else can you explain someone who says...
"Players wouldn't take them knowing the health-risks they cause if they didn't help. They help everyone who uses them. Some more than others." ....about Steroids, when the exact same evidence he just stated is also applicable to HGH. Players use it and its side effects are dangerous, maybe even moreso than with Steroids.

If you have to, address, or more likely correct the offending statements, and watch as the subject gets changed.

[Taco De Muerte]

Well its funny...I emailed the author of that "article" and never received a response. In the email I was polite and straight forward with my question towards him and he chose not to respond. Maybe he's just too busy making up other stuff. Its a book called the "Hall of Shame" Taco. If you were trying to sell books, would you accuse Ping Bodie of something, or Babe Ruth? His linking Babe's '25 bellyache to sheep testes?

Right, so anything negative about ruth is " made up ".

Got ya.

To answer your question, I put absolutely zero stock in that claim, and in over a decade of research on Ruth, this is the first I've ever heard such a thing. Maybe you should ask around this board and see if other Ruth researchers have heard of it. My guess is no. So the question falls back on you. Why would such a groundbreaking truth only show up in a book that just so happens to be titled "Hall of Shame?" Wouldn't Smelser or Creamer or Wagenheim or Reisler have at least mentioned such a revelation?

Fair enough.


Now apparently, there's this one theory that he injected sheep testes. Lord knows he needed the help. He must have been ashamed of his career performance up to that point.

Right, so because he didn't need the help, means he didn't do it.

Aaron or nor bonds didn't need the help of drugs, but both decided to take it anyway.

Could it be that MAYBE Ruth was human and felt like he needed a " boost " from something, like the MAJORITY of athletes in sports history ?

[Taco De Muerte]

And as for ESPNfan, mods, could you please do something about this character. His rude and snide remarks about me is effecting the good-time I'm having on this forum.

I like this place because each member usually shows eachother respect, despite whatever differences they may have with eachother.

This guy however has consistently criticized my posts, and insulted me.

Mattingly, and whoever else runs this site, please do something about this situation.

Thanks.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan, do you have a big thing for self-flagellation? If so, and if you live within a hundred miles of a big city, why not spend some money once or twice a month on a real good professional dominatrix? You'll get your jollies in a big way; your need to expiate your perceived guilt will be mollified; the young woman will surely be grateful; and you won't drive yourself and other regulars nuts.

In other words, since you KNOW it's inevitable that, in Neil Young's words, you're just pissing in the wind, why not give up? All you're doing is giving the misanthrope his gratification. I am quite certain you realize as much, because I know you to be a bright guy. To paraphrase a great 60's slogan, what if they gave a torrent of abuse, and nobody listened?

You know?

BHN

Time to give up on young Jedi Taco? Too far gone? Maybe you have a point.

Bertha, the Angel of Darkness is on her way over here ;)

[Yankwood]

Time to give up on young Jedi Taco? Too far gone? Maybe you have a point.

Bertha, the Angel of Darkness is on her way over here ;)Please, he resorted to The Nation for reference. Bird cage liner that it is.

[Mattingly]

No one gave you an accurate or complete answer to this so I'll try, Donny Baseball. The IRS investigators are more plentiful, and far more widely distributed around the country than any other branch of the Justice Dept., so early groundwork is usually laid by them. The DOJ's war on drugs has usually originated with the IRS guys, rather than the FDA, for the reasons mentioned above. I'm currently working with a number of federal investigators regarding mortgage fraud and property flipping, and it is usually the IRS folks doing the grunt work; the heavies only weigh in when they have enough grounds for indictments. Fees collected by inflated appraisals, brokers fees used to deceive out-of-state lenders are seldom fully reported as income by the crooked realtors, which gives the IRS initial jurisdiction. Same with ill-got gains of pharmaceutical suppliers selling illegal products; not many folks put drug related income on their 1040 return.

In the BALCO/Bonds case, it was Jeff Novitzky of the IRS that blew a knee out in his playing days, and was a gym rat that decided he could gain greater glory by bringing down a big fish, than he could on the ballcourt. Six years ago he heard about designer and undetectable products being made available in the bay area, and went to work. His personal agenda, while perhaps justified to the folks that are seeking the moral high ground in this debate, is as self-serving as Sneddon's vendetta against Michael Jackson.

Now that the Feds have found a stool pigeon, Congress will be turning up the heat, and more valuable time and resources will be wasted on yet another minor issue. Election year, yah know? If you ask 100 people in your legislative district what their top ten concerns facing them that congress should address, not one would mention steroids, HGH, or greenies in baseball, I guarantee. Yet the posturing and grandstanding gang will milk this scandal for all they can instead of focusing on important social issues. Now if the use of PEDs was mandatory for MLB players, it might warrant congressional attention.
Many thanks for the info and analysis, plus lotsa interesting background stuff. :D ;)

I presume everyone knows that Grimsley Receives 50-Game Suspension (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/13/sports/baseball/13grimsley.html). If not, they've heard it here first. :p

So basically what you're saying is that the IRS guys, due to their sheer numbers, are like the "first on the scene" guys who spread out and find out other stuff to be tried upon later in court? I hadn't realized that. I've known a few prosecutors, such as the Brooklyn DA's and some US Attorneys in down Brooklyn, NY, where there's a big courthouse, but haven't discussed their work with them much.

I know I've heard the name "Jeff Novitzky" before. Doing a simple search engine request, I'd gotten this 61-page affidavit (http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/sports/usconte90303sw.pdf) from him, for which you'll need to download Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html) software.

I'm curious, what was self-serving about Novitzky's work with the IRS's Criminal Investigation unit? Was this one of those "prosecute and find guilty at all costs" types of things, be the charges true or some things not altogether true? Or was it the ego boost of seeing his name in the papers that you're referring to?

One thing I'm wondering. Since people have all heard stories of the infamous "jailhouse stoolie", I'm wondering how much of what Grimsley says will be taken seriously. Even if he names players, all of whom could be household names to us, would this be any different than when Jose Canseco named a bunch of names, saying that "this person looks like he's juicing up" (to paraphrase, not an actual quote)?

Anyway, I'm presuming that the blacked out/redacted names will eventually be revealed. However, I'd like to see some kind of proof, paper trail or something of the like to support those claims. Otherwise, it may as well be just reading license plates off the cars parked at a shopping mall, then saying that you saw "so-and-so" at a certain place and time, but blatantly lacking any evidence to support this.

[ESPNFan]

One thing I'm wondering. Since people have all heard stories of the infamous "jailhouse stoolie", I'm wondering how much of what Grimsley says will be taken seriously. Even if he names players, all of whom could be household names to us, would this be any different than when Jose Canseco named a bunch of names, saying that "this person looks like he's juicing up" (to paraphrase, not an actual quote)?

Anyway, I'm presuming that the blacked out/redacted names will eventually be revealed. However, I'd like to see some kind of proof, paper trail or something of the like to support those claims. Otherwise, it may as well be just reading license plates off the cars parked at a shopping mall, then saying that you saw "so-and-so" at a certain place and time, but blatantly lacking any evidence to support this.

Matt, I think the main problem were dealing with now is the press leaking the names. Once those black marks appeared in the affadavit the race was on to find out who they were as we saw with Deadspin.com speculationg about it almost immeaditly afterwards.
Unfortunately once those names get leaked I don't think the court of public opinion will be very forgiving no matter the circumstances. There will be an air of guilty until proven innocent and thats just really unfair considering we really don't know Grimsley's motivation for giving them other than to cooperate.
I'm hoping that the powers that be move quickly to not only release the names themselves but also, with their release, either implicate the named with charges, or publicly clear them of any wrongdoing.

[west coast orange and black]

espnfan: Unfortunately once those names get leaked I don't think the court of public opinion will be very forgiving no matter the circumstances.

even if one of the names is "chris mihlfeld", one of albert pujols' personal trainers?

[ESPNFan]

espnfan: Unfortunately once those names get leaked I don't think the court of public opinion will be very forgiving no matter the circumstances.

even if one of the names is "chris mihlfeld", one of albert pujols' personal trainers?

Yeah unfortunately. I know people who I talk baseball at work with were basicly saying things like "see told you he wasn't clean." etc....

I think the major problem now is that it seems that there is a growing portion of people that are skeptical of almost any outstanding achivement being clean (PED free).

It's sad but this is what happens when management neglects to deal with a problem until its spiralling out of control.

[Mattingly]

Matt, I think the main problem were dealing with now is the press leaking the names. Once those black marks appeared in the affadavit the race was on to find out who they were as we saw with Deadspin.com speculationg about it almost immeaditly afterwards.
Unfortunately once those names get leaked I don't think the court of public opinion will be very forgiving no matter the circumstances. There will be an air of guilty until proven innocent and thats just really unfair considering we really don't know Grimsley's motivation for giving them other than to cooperate.
I'm hoping that the powers that be move quickly to not only release the names themselves but also, with their release, either implicate the named with charges, or publicly clear them of any wrongdoing.
That's why I'd mentioned the "jailhouse stoolie" thing, since some guys will sing like they're Nat King Cole or Frank Sinatra in order to get themselves a break. Either that or some infamous notoriety. Jason Grimsley's baseball career is effectively over, much like a General's military career once he's been demoted and stripped of his lofty rank.

Presume it's now the middle of July. Instead of blockbuster trades, we're hearing names that are presumed clean, but that few of us (presuming I can speak for some of us) don't wish to know are "dirty". You hear the names Clemens, Pujols, Jeter, Tejada, Carpenter, etc. Guys whose names would truly shock people into disbelief. Not necessarily that bad, but I figure you're catching my drift.

Anyway, like Jose Canseco, how much of this is real, how much of this is added on to up the ante? To sell a story better by contriving a few things, just for creativity's sake, at the expense of the innocent.

To me, that's my worst-case scenario, and right now, I'm not too sure that would be anything different from what will actually happen.

If it's the no-name journeymen of the MLB world, rather than those names who don't need a photo for people to know who they are, I do believe that the headlines will be furious in their updates. Sometimes I wonder if the accuracy would be properly dealt with.

Out of curiosity but unrelated, I looked up his number. Jason (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4425) wears #54, not the #25 that a few of the accused have worn.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I've made no secret here of the fact I am a criminal defense attorney, albeit of the rare "appellate" variety--i.e., I'm a writer, not a courtroom performer. And I'm really only knowledgeable about California law, some federal criminal laws, and common law principles which are likely to apply in all states.

But if you want to know how snitch testimony is generally produced, and treated, by the prosecution in a criminal trial, someone please say so and I'll post a brief essay on the subject. When it's the defense producing a snitch, of course, the jury is almost hopelessly circumspect, since jurors think most defense evidence is fabricated garbage to begin with, and jailhouse snitch testimony is the most stigmatized testimony of all.

BHN

[ESPNFan]

I've made no secret here of the fact I am a criminal defense attorney, albeit of the rare "appellate" variety--i.e., I'm a writer, not a courtroom performer. And I'm really only knowledgeable about California law, some federal criminal laws, and common law principles which are likely to apply in all states.

But if you want to know how snitch testimony is generally produced, and treated, by the prosecution in a criminal trial, someone please say so and I'll post a brief essay on the subject. When it's the defense producing a snitch, of course, the jury is almost hopelessly circumspect, since jurors think most defense evidence is fabricated garbage to begin with, and jailhouse snitch testimony is the most stigmatized testimony of all.

BHN


I'm always open to an education BHN. If you have the time I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[trosmok]

....
I'm curious, what was self-serving about Novitzky's work with the IRS's Criminal Investigation unit? Was this one of those "prosecute and find guilty at all costs" types of things, be the charges true or some things not altogether true? Or was it the ego boost of seeing his name in the papers that you're referring to?


Funny thing is, he is not trying to build a real solid case against anyone except Bonds, he seems more interested in tarring anyone he can through all kinds of dirty tricks and abuses of his power. He is a frustrated ex-jock that played on the San Jose State basketball team, and was never really good enough for the NBA, even before his career ending knee injury, so he is taking out his sense of failure with the IRS. Much of what I know about him comes from the links below, as well as the article that appeared in Playboy, but I am aquainted with a former co-worker of his that complained he was an insufferable suck-up with his superiors, treated female agents like my friend as if they were innately inferior, and followed the human island method of career advancement, (climb on someone and hold them underwater so you have a dry place to stand.) He has been accused throughout his career of illegal detentions and failure to advise detainees of their rights to counsel, as well as their right to remain silent, but nothing has stuck so far. His wire wearing operative, Iran White, sufferd a debilitating stroke during the course of the BALCO investigation, and the circumstances surrounding this sudden event are about as fishy as a Star-Kist canning factory. See:

http://www.getbig.com/iview/delczeg040217.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1298639/posts

[sandlot]

I was writing the post below to another thread, but it got closed even while I was typing. So, as it's not entirely inappropriate to this discussion and says what I'm thinking, here goes (apologies in advance to the Mods, if need be):

In light of all that keeps coming out, why not keep it simple and easy, and just name anyone you think is NOT on steroids or some other kind of PED? Should be a much shorter list. Don't forget to include managers, a number of whom are performing successfully in professional ball way past the point when the immutable laws of gerontological progression mandate that they should to be rocking away in retirement. And after that, in the interest of fairness, let's list all the BBF forumers who are either likely to be in the pay of Balco (explaining why they are apologists), or are probably users themselves -- I mean, come on, how else could they type so damn many posts without getting RSI or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and some of these folks admit they're old enough to have seen Dimaggio play even before the war? I mean, is that unnaturally extended performance or what?:)

As for testimony: BHN and Trsomock are opening a very interesting discussion on how testimony is developed, and I hope it's not all carried out offline because there's much for us to learn and to share. In this vein, I'm bothered by two things: One is the term "snitch." I'm not sure whether that's the right term to use to describe information/allegations provided by a person who's as yet uncharged but in fear and, perhaps, acting to protect family and loved ones. "Snitch" can apply in a number of other scenarios, for example, where the snitch is responding to gain and not to loss. I'm not sure what alternative term to use for shorthand, frankly, but maybe the better way is just to describe the circumstances as we know them and resist the temptation to characterize. The other bothersome thing is the reference to the media as "leaking" information. In fact, the media are reporting, and it's the sources who are leaking. IMHO, this is an important distinction if we're to apportion responsibility correctly. Somebody has to talk to reporters, or provide them with documents, or else it's very hard for them to write a story. The motivations of the media are easy enough to understand. But what are the motives of the leakers?

[BaseballHistoryNut]

OK. You are right. "Snitch" is a decidedly pejorative sounding term. In the context of informants used to get search warrants, there are typically two types: "C.I.'s" and "C.R.I.," i.e., confidential informants and confidential reliable informants. The former are people looking to get a deal on their own cases, in return for the info they're providing against others. The latter are good citizens providing info to the authorities because they feel it's the right thing to do. And it IS a little unfair to lump them together under the term "snitches."

A jury, obviously, is a great deal less circumspect about the motives and credibility of the second group than they are about those of the first group.

BHN

[sandlot]

Thanks for the note re "snitch." I agree that juries do look differently at the two types you mention. But of course sometimes we are discussing proceedings here where no jury is involved. Also, there's a distinction, maybe not appreciated by the average newspaper reader/tv watcher, between a jury and a grand jury. I'd add another term to your list: the highly reliable informant, or some similar variation on the wording. This is often a euphemism for information obtained by some form of intercept or covert surveillance.

[blaire576]

Read the rest here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13173947/

pretty crazy story out there in arizona. Gotta think thats going to affect the team some, let alone him.

yeah its really important nowadays to conduct investigation, wait u may see http://www.unlimited-backgroundcheck.com i got to search myself before but the only thing pissed me of is to see my own record like ssn, college and even high school record.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Your HIGH SCHOOL record??? How old are you, and what aspects of your high school record (no details, just which aspects) did this thing disclose? (I don't like the sound of this AT ALL.) And is this supposed to be something you subscribe to on a monthly basis? Or is it a per-hit kind of thing?

BHN