Payrolls

[Hammerin Hank]

Take your pick.

Guess which one I voted for.

[Hammerin Hank]

Food for thought:


Team Current WIN% Payroll $$ Spent per Wins (162 gms)
Marlins .357 14,998,500 394,361
Rockies .483 41,233,000 877,184
Diamondbacks .586 59,684,226 941,531
Reds .586 60,909,519 963,809
Tigers .638 82,612,866 1,023,464
Brewers .475 57,568,333 1,056,773
Devil Rays .407 35,417,967 1,058,383
Indians .491 56,031,500 1,203,288
Blue Jays .561 71,915,000 1,255,196
Rangers .544 68,228,662 1,256,847
Cardinals .603 88,891,371 1,396,403
Padres .517 69,896,141 1,409,003
Athletics .483 62,243,079 1,430,081
White Sox .614 102,750,667 1,607,638
Mets .596 101,084,963 1,634,824
Phillies .534 88,273,333 1,710,071
Giants .534 90,056,419 1,748,009
Dodgers .559 98,447,187 1,775,435
Nationals .441 63,143,000 1,782,032
Twins .439 63,396,006 1,790,194
Astros .475 92,551,503 1,801,096
Orioles .458 72,585,582 1,902,517
Pirates .373 46,717,750 1,940,888
Red Sox .589 120,099,824 2,039,997
Braves .492 90,156,876 2,056,422
Mariners .450 87,959,833 2,426,056
Angels .448 103,472,000 2,896,121
Yankees .614 194,663,079 3,165,476
Cubs .404 94,424,499 3,460,980
Royals .250 47,294,000 39,394,000


The way this was calculated is by taking 162 games and multiplying it by the win% since payrolls are based on whole seasons and not partial ones. Then subtract 40 wins. The reason for this is because if you had a minor league replacement team, they would end up with roughly 40 wins. You take the payroll and subtract 7,900,000 because the minimum salary for a player is 316,000 and a roster is 25 players. Then divide the payroll by wins. The formula didn't really work for the Royals since they have such a low win%. Also the Marlins may not be that spending efficient either but the formula is flawed because they have such a low payroll. It's pretty accurate for almost all other teams though.

[Jake83]

People always complain about the Dodgers wasting money The Twins, Pirates and Royals have wasted alot more money per win then the Blue.

[Astro]

The Royals one is not even close, period... if they won 2 games then it would have to be lower than that..... theyve won 2 games right?

[Hammerin Hank]

The Royals one is not even close, period... if they won 2 games then it would have to be lower than that..... theyve won 2 games right?

You didn't read the statement below those numbers about the formula used, did you?

[sandlot]

There are two options missing in the poll, and they are versions of the same thing:

I am/am not a Yankee fan and I believe that we/they buy the talent and win the titles.

[Whitesoxnut]

The WhiteSox payroll is a little misleading. true it might actually be that much but they "the team" is only paying about 84 million out of it. The rest is paid by other teams for players traded to the Sox. Kenny Williams, the GM, is one sharp dude.

[KCGHOST]

The Yanks haven't wonit all since 2000, so I don't think they can really be accused of buying a championship. They are making some undeserving players and agents rich, however.

[Hammerin Hank]

The Yanks haven't wonit all since 2000, so I don't think they can really be accused of buying a championship. They are making some undeserving players and agents rich, however.

That's great but I think a division title is what they're buying. They just don't have much success in the playoffs.

[Outta Here]

Agree with ^^^^

They cant b buyin WS titles coz they havn won 1 in 5yrs :laugh

They r buyin AL East 1s tho (IMO)

[BoofBonser26]

The players still have to play the game. No-one wins on paper.

[Hammerin Hank]

That's why it takes them over $3 million per win!

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'm surprised the Braves have such a high payroll. Then again, those Mike Hampton-ish contracts can kill you.

[bluezebra]

A paycheck cannot pitch, hit, or field. No matter what King George thinks.

Bob

[RickeyBeRickey]

This is one of the many reasons why people like Torre much more than Steinbrenner. It's all about the manager here, not the payroll. The Yankees won titles because of key role players, not because of top-dollar free agent acquisitions. Guys like Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, David Wells, and (of course) Paul O'Neil.

[jwkfs]

I'm surprised the Braves have such a high payroll. Then again, those Mike Hampton-ish contracts can kill you.

The Rockies were paying Hampton's $14M salary up to this year, and now that he's out for the year it's paid by insurance.
The Red Sox are paying almost all of Renteria's $9M salary this year.

So if you look at it that way, they're only paying $66,653,333 ;)

I wonder what the salaries for every team would look like if you included what they were paying other teams and what other teams were paying them.

[Oriolesfan1810]

Yankees buy every all-star off the market and make sure they throw $16 to $18 million a season.

Winter meetings: Yankees jump in line before anyone else so they can get the best free agent available.

Yankee GM (mocking): COME WITH THE YANKEES, YOU GET TO THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR, WE TREAT YOU LIKE A KING, AND WE PAY YOU.... WE PAY YOU GOOD!

Royals GM: Cocky a** Yankees..

Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera could easy be the biggest free agents available.

But you know what, even though the Yankees buy their players, they still haven't won a world series (HA HA to A-Rod and AN EVEN BIGGER HA HA TO MIKE MUSSINA!!!!! WHO LEFT BALTIMORE EXPECTING A WORLD SERIES RING!!! HA HA HA HA HA!!!!) since 2000.

[Astro]

Yankees buy every all-star off the market and make sure they throw $16 to $18 million a season.

Winter meetings: Yankees jump in line before anyone else so they can get the best free agent available.

Yankee GM (mocking): COME WITH THE YANKEES, YOU GET TO THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR, WE TREAT YOU LIKE A KING, AND WE PAY YOU.... WE PAY YOU GOOD!

Royals GM: Cocky a** Yankees..

Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera could easy be the biggest free agents available.

But you know what, even though the Yankees buy their players, they still haven't won a world series (HA HA to A-Rod and AN EVEN BIGGER HA HA TO MIKE MUSSINA!!!!! WHO LEFT BALTIMORE EXPECTING A WORLD SERIES RING!!! HA HA HA HA HA!!!!) since 2000.
Dontrelle Willis would be a good fit for the Yankees... an overrated SP that would do bad in New York

And why laugh at Mussina? Have the O's won a World Series since he left or something?

[Oriolesfan1810]

I laugh at Mussina because he made the stupidest decision ever. He went to New York hoping to win 20+ games as a pitcher and easily getting a world series ring. So far he's got nothing!

Let me remind of this, Astro, He's now public enemy #1 in Baltimore. The moose is never going to get a world series ring or win 20 games for as long as he is in the major leagues.

Dontrelle Willis isn't that overrated and no! He better not go to the Yankees, I'll be mad if he does.

[Astro]

I laugh at Mussina because he made the stupidest decision ever. He went to New York hoping to win 20+ games as a pitcher and easily getting a world series ring. So far he's got nothing!

Let me remind of this, Astro, He's now public enemy #1 in Baltimore. The moose is never going to get a world series ring or win 20 games for as long as he is in the major leagues.

Dontrelle Willis isn't that overrated and no! He better not go to the Yankees, I'll be mad if he does.
It's a dumb decision to leave a team that has little to no chance to make the playoffs for a team with an excellent chance to make the World Series year in and year out?

I beg to differ

[Yankee Legend]

I am a Yankee fan and I think it is impossible to "buy" titles.

A good team and good pitching win titles NOT $$$$$$$

In fact, the reason why we haven't won since 2000 is because we have been focusing our attention on big name all-stars rather than our farm system. (Hopefully that is changing now)

[Hammerin Hank]

Wow, only one Yankee vote. Big surprise this is a topic they stay away from...:rolleyes:

[DabigJimdogg0]

I really think that the Yankees win by their payroll. Every year they go for the biggest name guys they can find and give them more money than there worth (ala: Johny Damon, A-Rod, Kevin Brown). However, I do believe they desirve to have that big of payroll because of the distingushed success the franchise has had...I believe they have the right to spend more money than a team who isn't willing to win such as Florida.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I really think that the Yankees win by their payroll. Every year they go for the biggest name guys they can find and give them more money than there worth (ala: Johny Damon, A-Rod, Kevin Brown). However, I do believe they desirve to have that big of payroll because of the distingushed success the franchise has had...I believe they have the right to spend more money than a team who isn't willing to win such as Florida.
Brown and A-Rod were trades, with their previous teams, (Dodgers and the Rangers) being the guilty parties in terms of inflated contracts.
The Yankees have the biggest payroll, but they are hardly the only team that overspends or buys what they can, including the team the thread starter roots for . . .

[Jake83]

Brown and A-Rod were trades, with their previous teams, (Dodgers and the Rangers) being the guilty parties in terms of inflated contracts.
The Yankees have the biggest payroll, but they are hardly the only team that overspends or buys what they can, including the team the thread starter roots for . . .


It is only fun to blame the Yankees.

[Yankee Legend]

Wow, only one Yankee vote. Big surprise this is a topic they stay away from...:rolleyes:

Why don't you just rename this "The Official Yankee Bashers Thread"????

Seriously, what is it with all the Anti-Yankee threads?? I think you guys just picked the Yankees as an exuse to rip on a team.

[Hammerin Hank]

Why don't you just rename this "The Official Yankee Bashers Thread"????

Seriously, what is it with all the Anti-Yankee threads?? I think you guys just picked the Yankees as an exuse to rip on a team.

I believe the Yankees are a detriment to the game of baseball.

The original topic was supposed to be about payrolls in general. Like how much success does a certain get out of the money they spend. Then I decided to throw in the poll because I thought it would be interesting to me. Just to me. I don't care about what interests others. I expected a few more whiney complaints like yours though. I'm disappointed about that. Money won't buy you sympathy though.

[BoofBonser26]

Baseball needs the Yankees, and baseball needs the Yankees to win. Then everyone has a team to hate. And the hated team wins. So they hate them more, and have rivalries etc. Otherwise it'd be the 80's with a whole bunch of teams with no identities trading places going to the playoffs.

[Yankee Legend]

I believe the Yankees are a detriment to the game of baseball.

The original topic was supposed to be about payrolls in general. Like how much success does a certain get out of the money they spend. Then I decided to throw in the poll because I thought it would be interesting to me. Just to me. I don't care about what interests others. I expected a few more whiney complaints like yours though. I'm disappointed about that. Money won't buy you sympathy though.

How do you explain the fact that the Mets, Angels, Red Sox, etc. do the same exact thing??? Face all big market teams do this. Yankees are just playing the game like everyone else. Plus baseball is about COMPETITION not equal opportunity for all teams. If another team had the highest payroll then you would hate them instead of the Yankees.

[Appling]

The players still have to play the game. No-one wins on paper.
Yes the players must play out the schedule, and no one is guaranteed that having the best players will win a league championship. But with free agency, the richest team is able to buy whatever players they need (or think they need) to shore up a weak part of the roster. Certainly the teams willing to spend (Yankees, Red Sox, now even the White Sox) can get another starting pitcher when they need one -- or add a middle relief pitcher -- or a left-handed power hitter. Teams on a tighter budget (Marlins or Royals) can't do that -- but sometimes (very rarely) those low-spending teams can win anyway -- as Oakland has sometimes done.

It was much the same when I first followed baseball, in the 1940's. The St. Louis Browns sometimes developed a star player, but in a year or two he was playing for Boston (Red Sox). There will never be true parity in ML Baseball.

[NYYDerekJeter]

Baseball is an American sport and relects the American way of life, capitalism. Business works that way so is baseball, the guys with the deeper pockets are more competitive and smaller companie gets bought by bigger ones. I'm not 100% for it, but this is how it works. I'm a big Yankee fan and all, and I'm glad that my team can use money to attract player but I feel for smaller market teams. Being from Québec I've saw the Expos die because they couldn't compete moneywise.

But in the other hand, I just don't believe you can buy a championship. Clutch play, dedication and team spirit cannot be bought... The Yankees are not a complete joke because of guys like Jeter, Bernie and Posada that will give everything for the team night in and night out. Those guys are Yankees in their heart and will always be. Winning in sports is all about heart, if you don't put your heart into it, you just don't win. Without guys like this they would be just like the Rangers (NHL) wore before the lockout. A buch of superstars grabbing their asses while collecting big money.

[Appling]

Maybe you can't buy championships, but think of it this way:

You and I and 38 other kids are 12 years old, and we are chosing sides for a short playoff series. We are going to chose sides for four teams with nine players on a team.

I own the bat and the ball, so I get to pick the first four players for Team A.
The four team captains do the choosing from the remaining 32 players.

Team B: picks 5, 11, 12, 18, 19, 25, 26, 32,
Team C: picks 6, 10, 13, 17, 20, 24, 27, 31,
Team D: picks 7, 9, 14, 16, 21, 23, 28, 30,
Team A: picks 8, 15, 22, 29 (in addition to picks, 1, 2, 3 and 4)

There we are: four teams of 9 players each. We played together before, so we all know which are the best players. We each pick 8 players in addition to ourselves. But -- IS IT FAIR?

[Ubiquitous]

Yes if all sides agreed with that setup beforehand it is fair.

Also that doesn't really work that way in MLB. Because the way free agency is setup and how it limits who is available and who is not the Yankees are not free to get anyone they want and must do some planning and do some building of their own in order to be good. We saw what happens to the Yankees when all they can do is get free agents and have a poor farm system and home grown talent. Much of the 80's and first half of the 90's saw a mediocre Yankee team. It wasn't until the Yankees developed a farm system and some home grown talent that they started to win games.

The Yankees abilities should reflect the abilities of its market. Why should the Yankees be forced to behave like a small market team when it is in the largest market in the country?

[Centreville82]

I believe the Yankees are a detriment to the game of baseball.

The original topic was supposed to be about payrolls in general. Like how much success does a certain get out of the money they spend. Then I decided to throw in the poll because I thought it would be interesting to me. Just to me. I don't care about what interests others. I expected a few more whiney complaints like yours though. I'm disappointed about that. Money won't buy you sympathy though.


They're playing by the rules of MLB. Can't fault them for that. I sure as hell wish that my team (the Cardinals) had an owner who had the same passion and effort as Steinbrenner. Yet, he cries poor when opportunity knocks on his door to improve a ballclub that has been close to winning a title for 6 yrs now...

[Centreville82]

Big free agent signings aren't responsible for the 4 Yankee championships, it was their farm system. George partied like it was the 1980's after the Yankees lost to Arizona in '01. It's no surprise that they haven't won a title since 2000...

[Jake83]

Jeter
Posada
Williams
Rivera
Pettite
Who else was a Yankee farmhand from the late 90's........The rest free agents.

[538280]

The Yankees unquestionably receive a huge boost from their payroll. That said, I feel that a team cannot win on money alone, the managment has to have some clue, and the Yankees have proven that they do indeed have a clue on how to manage a baseball team. They have been the most successful franchise because of their great coaching/managment. The money has been a huge boost, but it does not, in of itself, make them extremely successful.

[Ubiquitous]

Jeter
Posada
Williams
Rivera
Pettite
Who else was a Yankee farmhand from the late 90's........The rest free agents.


How do you think the Yankees got Paul O'Neil, Tino Martinez, and Scott Brosius? They weren't free agents the Yankees had to trade players to get them.


Strong up the middle home grown talent is pretty important. Those are generally the hardest positions to fill and the Yankees were able to do it in house. That is pretty impressive. The Yankees have through their own player development possibly developed a HoF SS, HoF CF'er, HoF C, HoF RP, and at the very least an all star starting pitcher. How often does that happen nowadays?

Cone came in as a free agent, Yankees won the rights to Hernandez, and Wells was a free agent. That is about it in terms of important players on the Yankees signed as free agent during their streak of world series championships.
Bottom line is that Cashman and others put together a very good farm team that produced several hall of famers and enough chits for trades to produce numerous world series championships and for the most part the Yankees used free agency properly. They used it to fill holes with players that could fill those holes properly and not just signed free agents because free agents were available. Which is what they are doing nowadays.

[Biggtone23]

Isnt it awful when a team figures out how to make money and then put it back into the onfield product. I mean my god what is george steinbrenner thinking about? He is only supposed to try to win the world series once every 20 years not every year. I mean putting your money into your farm system so that every team in baseball has at least one former Yankee farm hand on its big league roster and then signing players who will help your team.

I personally Im happy to know that when I go to the ballpark and spend $50.00 on a ticket, $15 to park, $8 for a beer and $5 for a hotdog some of that money goes to help the team not to just buy the owner another jet.

I was a little surprised to see this thread was started by a Braves fan. They're not exactly crying poverty themselves.

And for the post above Cone was traded to the Yankees during the 1995 season.

[Ubiquitous]

oops I forgot he was a trade deadline acquisition

[Hammerin Hank]

The Yankees unquestionably receive a huge boost from their payroll. That said, I feel that a team cannot win on money alone, the managment has to have some clue, and the Yankees have proven that they do indeed have a clue on how to manage a baseball team. They have been the most successful franchise because of their great coaching/managment. The money has been a huge boost, but it does not, in of itself, make them extremely successful.

How could you manage them wrong? You could have any group of players in the field and order your lineup in any random way and it would all be the same.

[redbuck]

The average minor league player is in the 31st percentile of major league players. An average minor league team would win well over 40 games. The difference between major and minor league talent is much less than you might expect. A good triple-A team could perform surprisingly well in the major leagues. In baseball few ML teams win fewer than 40% of their games or more than 60%. I'm not sure where the 40 came from but I'd put that as high as 60 to 65.

[Mattingly]

Yes the players must play out the schedule, and no one is guaranteed that having the best players will win a league championship. But with free agency, the richest team is able to buy whatever players they need (or think they need) to shore up a weak part of the roster. Certainly the teams willing to spend (Yankees, Red Sox, now even the White Sox) can get another starting pitcher when they need one -- or add a middle relief pitcher -- or a left-handed power hitter. Teams on a tighter budget (Marlins or Royals) can't do that -- but sometimes (very rarely) those low-spending teams can win anyway -- as Oakland has sometimes done.

It was much the same when I first followed baseball, in the 1940's. The St. Louis Browns sometimes developed a star player, but in a year or two he was playing for Boston (Red Sox). There will never be true parity in ML Baseball.
If it were that easy, then why haven't the Yanks added any players yet? Last I've heard, the replacements have come from the farm. We're playing rookies in the corner OF in Melky Cabrera in LF and Kevin Thompson in RF. Our rotation includes Chien-Ming Wang, who's in his 2nd year, as is our 2Bman, Robinson Cano.

What I think that's needed is for the Yanks to stop worrying about whether or not a player's salary will pay for itself, but get better and younger players, preferably those who aren't overpriced or on the wrong side of 40. Randy Johnson would be Exhibit A on this for 2006, but countless others have preceded him in this.

[Hammerin Hank]

The average minor league player is in the 31st percentile of major league players. An average minor league team would win well over 40 games. The difference between major and minor league talent is much less than you might expect. A good triple-A team could perform surprisingly well in the major leagues. In baseball few ML teams win fewer than 40% of their games or more than 60%. I'm not sure where the 40 came from but I'd put that as high as 60 to 65.

Actually the number was supposed to be 50 but I didn't realize it until after I was done and didn't want to go back and change everything. But it doesn't make much of a difference to the final result for most teams except for the extremes like the Royals. If you don't think 50 is a good number then ask one of those sabremetric guys, not me. I just used the formula, I didn't create it.

[Centreville82]

Jeter
Posada
Williams
Rivera
Pettite
Who else was a Yankee farmhand from the late 90's........The rest free agents.


And ?

Those 5 were very important during the run of 4 championships. O'Neill became a Yankee in 1992..

[Centreville82]

How do you think the Yankees got Paul O'Neil, Tino Martinez, and Scott Brosius? They weren't free agents the Yankees had to trade players to get them.


Strong up the middle home grown talent is pretty important. Those are generally the hardest positions to fill and the Yankees were able to do it in house. That is pretty impressive. The Yankees have through their own player development possibly developed a HoF SS, HoF CF'er, HoF C, HoF RP, and at the very least an all star starting pitcher. How often does that happen nowadays?

Cone came in as a free agent, Yankees won the rights to Hernandez, and Wells was a free agent. That is about it in terms of important players on the Yankees signed as free agent during their streak of world series championships.
Bottom line is that Cashman and others put together a very good farm team that produced several hall of famers and enough chits for trades to produce numerous world series championships and for the most part the Yankees used free agency properly. They used it to fill holes with players that could fill those holes properly and not just signed free agents because free agents were available. Which is what they are doing nowadays.


Bingo. But let them have their fun by ripping on the Yankees. they never let facts get in the way of good ranting...

[Mattingly]

Jeter
Posada
Williams
Rivera
Pettite
Who else was a Yankee farmhand from the late 90's........The rest free agents.
Free agents and trades, actually. Rodriguez and Johnson are big-salaried versions of the trade thing.

You'd forgotten Ramiro Mendoza, who's home-grown, played for the Yanks from 1996-2002, is now back in the Yankee farm system.

Speaking of which, how many other teams have 4 players still with the same team from a decade ago? That's the often missed portion.

Right now, our farm guys starting include Chien-Ming Wang (RHP/SP), Robinson Cano (2B), Melky Cabrera (corner OF) and Kevin Thompson (corner OF). Additionally, we have Andy Phillips (1B) in the bench.
And ?

Those 5 were very important during the run of 4 championships. O'Neill became a Yankee in 1992..
1993 actually. He came from the Reds at manager Sweet Lou's suggestion, per his YES Yankeeography segment in which Piniella commented on this.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/o'neipa01.shtml

[Ubiquitous]

Jeter, Williams, Pettite, Posada, and Rivera were all all-stars and were all out of the Yankee farm system. Not only that but they drafted them and didn't just trade for them while they were in the minors. The Yankees drafted them, trained them, and then played them, and each is either a future Hall of Famer or a lot closer to it then most non-hall of famers. I said it before but when was the last time a team was ever able to pull that off? Within in a 2 year span the Yankees drafted 5 possible all time greats and played them all on the same team.

Atlanta had Glavine in 1984, traded for Smoltz, picked up Lopez in 1987, Chipper in 1990, and Andruw in 1993. In total they drafted and played 4 guys who are either HoF'ers or close to it but did it over 10 years. They probably come the closest to matching the criteria. Though I will say the Braves blow the Yankees away in terms of signing and developing major league players of all levels. From regulars to all stars. Nobody can really touch the Braves over the last 20 years I'd say.

Anyway I think one would have to go back to the era before free agency to truly find teams that have done something similar to what the Yankees did with their 5 home grown players.

[Hammerin Hank]

Anyway I think one would have to go back to the era before free agency to truly find teams that have done something similar to what the Yankees did with their 5 home grown players.

So what? It's only five players. There's still $150 million more floating around somewhere.

[Centreville82]

Thanks for the correction, Mattingly.:) Mendoza's back with the Yankees, eh ?

[Ubiquitous]

So what? It's only five players. There's still $150 million more floating around somewhere.


Well Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Phil Rizzuto, Allie Reynolds, and Vic Raschi are only 5 players too.

you are missing the point any team that has Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite, and Rivera are going to win a lot of games. you put them on the Pirates in the mid to late 90's and they are a playoff teaming. Saying they are just 5 guys misses the entire point about how great those 5 players were.

[redbuck]

Actually the number was supposed to be 50 but I didn't realize it until after I was done and didn't want to go back and change everything. But it doesn't make much of a difference to the final result for most teams except for the extremes like the Royals. If you don't think 50 is a good number then ask one of those sabremetric guys, not me. I just used the formula, I didn't create it.

Well, as one of those sabermetric guys, if one of the less experienced ones, I can tell you that assuming, as Bill James did, that the average triple-Aer is 18% worse than the average major leaguer (as of 1985, probably improved by now, by my calculations it's down to about 16.5%), we can assume that the bottom half of minor league players are pretty equal in makeup and number as the bottom 31% of major league teams.

An average minor league team should win as many as 74 games.

[Ubiquitous]

Well with MLE's couldn't we just pick a minor league and it's stats and do a conversion to see how many runs they score and give up at the major league level? 74 wins seems awfully high for an average number for the average AAA team to win at the major league level. I would have guessed that was the upper range not the middle.

For instance Pawtucket is in the middle of the International league in terms of wins. The team is batting .236/.326/.357 and scoring 3.6 runs per game. The pitching staff has an ERA of 3.50, 10 shutouts in 61 games, a WHIP of 1.34, 26 unearned runs and 400 strikeouts. To me it is hard to imagine that this would be anywhere close to 74 games won. It isn't like the hitting would suddenly improve by being promoted to the Majors and it is doubtful that the pitching could maintain a 3.50 ERA or anything close to that.

At best I think you would expect the team to score around 600 runs and at least allow somewhere past 750 runs, and that is being cautious. I would hazard a guess of the first digit being an 8 and not a 7. I would guess that 62 wins would be more likely for this team then 74.

[Ubiquitous]

Okay rereading it again I think it is possible that a AAA team could win as many as 74 but like I said I think that would be the upper limit and not really close the average. I would guess that somewhere around the 100 loss mark most AAA teams would be around.

[Hammerin Hank]

Well Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Phil Rizzuto, Allie Reynolds, and Vic Raschi are only 5 players too.

you are missing the point any team that has Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite, and Rivera are going to win a lot of games. you put them on the Pirates in the mid to late 90's and they are a playoff teaming. Saying they are just 5 guys misses the entire point about how great those 5 players were.

The Cubs have Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Greg Maddux. Are they a consistent playoff team? ;)

[Hammerin Hank]

Well, as one of those sabermetric guys, if one of the less experienced ones, I can tell you that assuming, as Bill James did, that the average triple-Aer is 18% worse than the average major leaguer (as of 1985, probably improved by now, by my calculations it's down to about 16.5%), we can assume that the bottom half of minor league players are pretty equal in makeup and number as the bottom 31% of major league teams.

An average minor league team should win as many as 74 games.

Here's what you failed to consider. I said 'minor league team'. Not triple-A team. Because on what triple-A team is the average salary only $316,000? Those guys are already paid more than that. This is a minor league 'replacement team' being paid the minimum.

[Ubiquitous]

The Cubs have Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Greg Maddux. Are they a consistent playoff team? ;)


Are Wood and Prior even on the field?

Is Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee and a 40 year old Maddux the same as Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Posada, Pettite, and Rivera?

But guess what if all 5 were healthy and playing you better believe they would be a constant playoff contender.

But again ARam, DLee, Maddux, Wood, and Prior do not even come clsoe to matching the output of the Yankee five.

[Centreville82]

The Cubs have Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Greg Maddux. Are they a consistent playoff team? ;)

Please tell me you aren't comparing the Cubs to the Yankees' 5.

[Hammerin Hank]

Please tell me you aren't comparing the Cubs to the Yankees' 5.

It's not just payroll, you Yankee fans also rank #1 in arrogance.

[Captain Cold Nose]

It's not just payroll, you Yankee fans also rank #1 in arrogance.
Hank, please tell me you started this thread to actually discuss baseball payroll, and not just vent out of petty jealousy against the Yankees and their fans. Because it certainly appears that's the only reason for this thread.

[Centreville82]

It's not just payroll, you Yankee fans also rank #1 in arrogance.
I take that as a compliment.:)

I just find it ironic that a Cubs fan is biotching about payrolls... The Tribune Co. arent exactly poor..

[Hammerin Hank]

I take that as a compliment.:)

I just find it ironic that a Cubs fan is biotching about payrolls... The Tribune Co. arent exactly poor..

When did I ever say I was a Cubs fan??:noidea

[Hammerin Hank]

Exactly what I thought...

[Captain Cold Nose]

I don't know Hank, the fact you were a Cubs moderator and have a signature in reference to the Cubs kind of puts a scarlet C on your chest.

[Hammerin Hank]

I don't know Hank, the fact you were a Cubs moderator and have a signature in reference to the Cubs kind of puts a scarlet C on your chest.

I lost interest in them over the winter, as I've said in the Cubs forum. My signature is wishing for failure. I've only watched pasrt of one single Cubs game this entire season. I wouldn't call that being a fan. Right now I'm just a fan of the game of baseball.

[Centreville82]

Exactly what I thought...

Big Internet Commando, ooh.

I didn't know that you weren't a Cubs fan. Still, I see no reason why you should cry poor. ;)

[KenFougere]

I am not a Yankees fan/I believe they buy their titles.*

* Speaking only during the "King George" era . . . http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/money.gif

[Captain Cold Nose]

I am not a Yankees fan/I believe they buy their titles.*

* Speaking only during the "King George" era . . . http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/money.gif
$o $ayeth the fan of the team with the $econd highe$t payroll.

[Hammerin Hank]

Big Internet Commando, ooh.

I didn't know that you weren't a Cubs fan. Still, I see no reason why you should cry poor. ;)

Haha, my whole life is about having no money. I've been working in a restaurant the past couple weeks and haven't been paid yet so I have no money. One day, I was telling my boss how I hadn't eaten in literally over a day. He says, "You work in a restaurant, you have no excuse for not eating! Buy a banana, they're 31 cents with the 50% employee dicount." To which I replied: "I don't have 31 cents!"

[Captain Cold Nose]

Haha, my whole life is about having no money. I've been working in a restaurant the past couple weeks and haven't been paid yet so I have no money. One day, I was telling my boss how I hadn't eaten in literally over a day. He says, "You work in a restaurant, you have no excuse for not eating! Buy a banana, they're 31 cents with the 50% employee dicount." To which I replied: "I don't have 31 cents!"
The restaurant you work at sells single bananas?

[Hammerin Hank]

The restaurant you work at sells single bananas?

I guess. There were a couple bundles sitting on the break table. Maybe they put them in things, though. Like nanner splits.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I guess. There were a couple bundles sitting on the break table. Maybe they put them in things, though. Like nanner splits.
Got it. Damn, Hank. You'd figure the least they could do was comp something for an employee every now and then. The restaurant I run trivia at does it all the time.

[Hammerin Hank]

Got it. Damn, Hank. You'd figure the least they could do was comp something for an employee every now and then. The restaurant I run trivia at does it all the time.

I'm sure they would if I asked, but I hate getting things for free. Maybe it's because back when I did have money, everyone used to eat my food, smoke my cigarettes*, ask for loans, etc. I hated that.

*I'm quitting smoking as we speak, and it's going well.:)

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm sure they would if I asked, but I hate getting things for free. Maybe it's because back when I did have money, everyone used to eat my food, smoke my cigarettes*, ask for loans, etc. I hated that.

*I'm quitting smoking as we speak, and it's going well.:)
I hear you. At least you're going about things in an honest manner.

[KenFougere]

$o $ayeth the fan of the team with the $econd highe$t payroll.

Ah, true.
But there's a much bigger gap ($80M) between the payrolls of the #1 Yankee$ and the #2 Red Sox than the gap (only $16.5M) that separates the Sox from the #3 Angels . . .

BTW: that extra $80M that NY spends over Boston is more than the bottom 15 teams spend on their entire team payroll . . .


New York Yankees...http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/dollarsign.gif198,662,180
Boston Red Sox.......$120,100,524
Los Angeles Angels..$103,625,333
Chicago White Sox...$102,875,667
New York Mets........$100,901,085

[Yankee Legend]

So why exactly can't a team use all the resources available to put the best team on the field??? You guys keep bashing the Yanks but I don't think you see the reality. Before you judge another team look at the team you cheer for and analyze them critically. Every team has the same goal. No offense but anybody who thinks baseball is about equality and fairness has absolutely no knowledge of baseball.

[Sweet Lou]

The Cubs have Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Greg Maddux. Are they a consistent playoff team? ;)
Well, let's replace Kerry Wood with Carlos Zambrano. ;)

But, I think, this actually proves that the Yankees are a better orginization. Here's the Cubs: They have some very talented players. Heck, why is Pierre stinking it up so badly? And Todd Walker is a real team player. They have a great catcher. What's wrong with the Cubs?

I think it's bad upper management. They want to APPEAR to be fielding a great team, so they get a few great players, but they fail to get a WELL BALANCED team, a team that plays well together, complete with great middle relievers and closers. And then everyone comes to the park and cheers, thinking that the Cubs have a chance.

So why bash the Yankees who have fielded succesful teams for over 10 years now, when you should be complaining about teams such as the Cubs who consistantly underachieve, and spend MORE than enough money to get the job done, but fail miserably year after year?

The Yankees are wonderful. I'm not a Yankees fan, but I'm not a Yankees hater, and if they want to spend all that money, more power to em. It hasn't helped since 2000. And I could be wrong, but the best team in Baseball history in my opinion, was the 98 Yankees...how much did they spend, and how many great players did they "steal" from other teams by buying them? Anybody happen to know?

Meanwhile, I'll support my Mariners first, and then support teams like the Cardinals. And the Twins, who spend very little money and field great teams...most years, if not this year! :)

Lou

[Sweet Lou]

Ah, true.
But there's a much bigger gap ($80M) between the payrolls of the #1 Yankee$ and the #2 Red Sox than the gap (only $16.5M) that separates the Sox from the #3 Angels . . .

BTW: that extra $80M that NY spends over Boston is more than the bottom 15 teams spend on their entire team payroll . . .


New York Yankees...http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/dollarsign.gif198,662,180
Boston Red Sox.......$120,100,524
Los Angeles Angels..$103,625,333
Chicago White Sox...$102,875,667
New York Mets........$100,901,085

And 3 of these Teams have won WS the last 4 years. ;) So what's the problem again? :)

[Hammerin Hank]

So why bash the Yankees who have fielded succesful teams for over 10 years now, when you should be complaining about teams such as the Cubs who consistantly underachieve, and spend MORE than enough money to get the job done, but fail miserably year after year?


I do both. They are both mistakes. I just can't stand baseball being so far from perfect. It's very disappointing.

[Captain Cold Nose]

And 3 of these Teams have won WS the last 4 years. ;) So what's the problem again? :)
The mean principality wants the world to think they're just like us common folk. It's not working, Ken.

[Sweet Lou]

I do both. They are both mistakes. I just can't stand baseball being so far from perfect. It's very disappointing.Well, then, you are very fair and objective. I appreciate the even-handedness. :)

[KenFougere]

And 3 of these Teams have won WS the last 4 years. ;) So what's the problem again? :)

Certainly no problem for the Yankees.
It's just that sometimes I find the Yankees' inexhaustible supply of money and their casual way they over-pay players, nauseating & obscene. http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Money/Stack_of_dollars.gifhttp://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Money/Stack_of_coins.gif

[Sweet Lou]

Certainly no problem for the Yankees.
It's just that sometimes I find the Yankees' inexhaustible supply of money and their casual way they over-pay players, nauseating & obscene. http://www.animation-station.com/money/animatedmoney/government.gif
But if it doesn't even do them any good, or another way of putting it, if they throw all that money at the players, and are so casual, and yet, they don't get to go to the Big Dance, why worry about it?

[KenFougere]

But if it doesn't even do them any good, or another way of putting it, if they throw all that money at the players, and are so casual, and yet, they don't get to go to the Big Dance, why worry about it?

Worry isn't the word. Envious, maybe . . . :o

[Whitesoxnut]

Boston Red Sox.......$120,100,524
Los Angeles Angels..$103,625,333
Chicago White Sox...$102,875,667
New York Mets........$100,901,085
[/LIST][/B][/indent]

The Sox actually only pay out 84 m due to other teams paying parts of salaries. Its probably changed now that they picked up a top reliever but Kenny Williams is a sharp GM. Heres the breakdown, tho again its confusing as the actual organization may not be footing the entire payroll. I admire the Yanks and their history.


Team Payrolls
No. Team Payroll
1. New York Yankees $198,662,180
2. Boston Red Sox $120,100,524
3. Los Angeles Angels $103,625,333
4. Chicago White Sox $102,875,667
5. New York Mets $100,901,085
6. Los Angeles Dodgers $99,176,950
7. Chicago Cubs $94,841,167
8. Houston Astros $92,551,503
9. Atlanta Braves $92,461,852
10. San Francisco Giants $90,862,063
11. St. Louis Cardinals $88,441,218
12. Seattle Mariners $88,324,500
13. Philadelphia Phillies $88,273,333
14. Detroit Tigers $82,302,069
15. Baltimore Orioles $72,585,713
16. Toronto Blue Jays $71,915,000
17. San Diego Padres $69,725,179
18. Texas Rangers $65,468,130
19. Minnesota Twins $63,810,048
20. Washington Nationals $63,267,500
21. Oakland Athletics $62,322,054
22. Cincinnati Reds $59,489,015
23. Arizona Diamondbacks $59,221,226
24. Cleveland Indians $56,795,867
25. Milwaukee Brewers $56,790,000
26. Kansas City Royals $47,294,000
27. Pittsburgh Pirates $46,867,750
28. Colorado Rockies $41,133,000
29. Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,417,967
30. Florida Marlins $14,998,500

[bigtime39]

Please read "Taking on the Yankees" by Henry D Fetter, a great analysis of how the Yankee$ professionalized their FO operations long before anyone else, and how early ownership used their financial advantage / position in the largest market in the country to overwhelm the opposition from 1920 on.
WS wins are also a little misleading, for the purpose of this discussion. The baseball SEASON is a marathon. The playoffs are a series of sprints. (This is one reason the Braves have "so little" to show for their 14 NL East titles.) The Yankee$ have proven over the past 8 seasons that the marathon (AL East) title CAN be purchased, but that playoff wins are more a "catch lightning in a bottle" sort of thing.
As long as baseball is a 21st Century sport burdened with a 19th Century robber baron economic system, the Yankee$ will continue to exploit their advantage. As long as I am a fan of a team stuck in the same division with them, I will continue to be unhappy about it.

[pacewon]

Please read "Taking on the Yankees" by Henry D Fetter, a great analysis of how the Yankee$ professionalized their FO operations long before anyone else, and how early ownership used their financial advantage / position in the largest market in the country to overwhelm the opposition from 1920 on.
WS wins are also a little misleading, for the purpose of this discussion. The baseball SEASON is a marathon. The playoffs are a series of sprints. (This is one reason the Braves have "so little" to show for their 14 NL East titles.) The Yankee$ have proven over the past 8 seasons that the marathon (AL East) title CAN be purchased, but that playoff wins are more a "catch lightning in a bottle" sort of thing.
As long as baseball is a 21st Century sport burdened with a 19th Century robber baron economic system, the Yankee$ will continue to exploit their advantage. As long as I am a fan of a team stuck in the same division with them, I will continue to be unhappy about it.

As a fan of the Orioles you should be grateful to the Yankees for all that revenue your owner takes in when Camden Yards transforms into Yankee Stadium South when the Bombers come to town :laugh (the same goes for the Boston fans who embarrassingly take over your ballpark every time the Red Sox visit Baltimore).

Your owner can spend as much money as the Yankees if he wants, but he opts not to. That's why I don't buy into your sympathy story. Cry me a river.

[Outta Here]

I wonder how much of the Marlins 15mil payroll is spent on Cabrera & Dontrelle? :eek:

[bigtime39]

As a fan of the Orioles you should be grateful to the Yankees for all that revenue your owner takes in when Camden Yards transforms into Yankee Stadium South when the Bombers come to town :laugh (the same goes for the Boston fans who embarrassingly take over your ballpark every time the Red Sox visit Baltimore).

Your owner can spend as much money as the Yankees if he wants, but he opts not to. That's why I don't buy into your sympathy story. Cry me a river.

"My owner" can spend as much money as the Yankee$, when, and only when, The Endle$$ River of Ca$h that flows through the Bronx is shared equally by all the other teams, just as 1/30th of their revenue streams (much smaller, but, hey, in your immortal words, "cry me a river") is sent to King George III. My being an Orioles fan only heightens my irritation at the current situation. It doesn't create the situation, nor does it change the basic unfairness of baseball's revenue distribution. Would you have had the gall to make this statement if I were a Devil Rays fan?
And as for the Yankee$ and Red $ox fans who invade Baltimore along with their teams? Please, stay home. OPCY is a much more pleasant place without the hordes of drunks chanting "Let's go _____" (clap, clap, clapclapclap).

[pacewon]

"My owner" can spend as much money as the Yankee$, when, and only when, The Endle$$ River of Ca$h that flows through the Bronx is shared equally by all the other teams, just as 1/30th of their revenue streams (much smaller, but, hey, in your immortal words, "cry me a river") is sent to King George III. My being an Orioles fan only heightens my irritation at the current situation. It doesn't create the situation, nor does it change the basic unfairness of baseball's revenue distribution. Would you have had the gall to make this statement if I were a Devil Rays fan?[/b]

Sharing the revenue streams equally among the 30 teams is absurd because there are owners richer than Steinbrenner that opt to pocket the money they are receiving from the Yankees rather than reinvest it into their teams.

But the biggest story is the effect revenue sharing is having on the league's economic landscape. Most of the money comes courtesy of the New York Yankees, which paid a record $77 million toward baseball's revenue sharing system. The Boston Red Sox, baseball's No. 2 revenue sharer, paid only $51 million. Such generosity by Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, required by the league's rule that teams pay 34 percent of their net local revenue to help make poorer teams more competitive, is the reason why the Oakland Athletics, Minnesota Twins and Kansas City Royals increased in value by more than 20 percent.

Revenue sharing also had a profound impact on operating income. The Yankees and the Red Sox lost $50 million and $18.5 million, respectively, before interest, income taxes and depreciation. By not using their subsidies to boost player payroll (which was the intent of revenue sharing), the Pittsburgh Pirates, the Royals and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays each earned more than $20 million.

But the league's reliance on Steinbrenner's Yankees goes far beyond revenue sharing. For example, a visit by the Yankees can increase a home team's ticket sales by as much as 25 percent. And the Yankees account for 27 percent of all league merchandise sales, the profits of which get shared equally throughout the league to the tune of more than $3 million per franchise. In effect, much of the league operates as subsidiaries of the Bronx Bombers.

And as for the Yankee$ and Red $ox fans who invade Baltimore along with their teams? Please, stay home. OPCY is a much more pleasant place without the hordes of drunks chanting "Let's go _____" (clap, clap, clapclapclap).

Not my fault that you can't fill OPCY with your own drunken fans :laugh but it's funny that you're complaining about revenue when it's Yankees and Red Sox fans constantly putting money in your owner's pocket by embarrassingly taking your stadium over every time one of the two teams is in Baltimore.

[bigtime39]

Sharing the revenue streams equally among the 30 teams is absurd because there are owners richer than Steinbrenner that opt to pocket the money they are receiving from the Yankees rather than reinvest it into their teams.
That practice is wrong, and shouldn't be allowed. Just like the current revenue distribution system is unfair, and should be changed.
Also, the Yankee$ revenue sharing payout is about to go down, dramatically, when they begin to write off the cost of building "the House the the other 29 teams paid for a big chunk of."


Not my fault that you can't fill OPCY with your own drunken fans :laugh but it's funny that you're complaining about revenue when it's Yankees and Red Sox fans constantly putting money in your owner's pocket by embarrassingly taking your stadium over every time one of the two teams is in Baltimore.
Nor is it mine...but this isolated issue has relatively little bearing on the overall situation, and nothing to do with the woes of franchises like Tampa Bay...

[Hammerin Hank]

An update, this time using 50 wins:

Team Current WIN% Payroll $$ Spent per Wins (162 gms)
Marlins .439 14,998,500 338,023
Rockies .500 41,233,000 1,075,258
Tigers .662 82,612,866 1,310,752
Reds .543 60,909,519 1,394,987
Athletics .543 62,243,079 1,430,081
Diamondbacks .514 59,684,226 1,569,219
Rangers .543 68,228,662 1,587,596
Devil Rays .414 35,417,967 1,618,704
Cardinals .618 88,891,371 1,619,827
Brewers .493 57,568,333 1,655,611
Blue Jays .536 71,915,000 1,730,135
Padres .522 69,896,141 1,771,318
White Sox .638 102,750,667 1,789,635
Twins .500 63,396,006 1,790,194
Mets .623 101,084,963 1,827,156
Indians .449 56,031,500 2,092,674
Mariners .479 87,959,833 2,106,838
Red Sox .588 120,099,824 2,493,329
Nationals .444 63,143,000 2,511,045
Dodgers .522 98,447,187 2,587,062
Phillies .500 88,273,333 2,592,688
Giants .493 90,056,419 2,738,547
Orioles .451 72,585,582 2,812,417
Astros .514 92,551,503 2,821,717
Angels .449 103,472,000 4,155,304
Pirates .366 46,717,750 4,313,083
Braves .429 90,156,876 4,329,309
Yankees .559 194,663,079 4,555,197
Cubs .391 94,424,499 6,655,731
Royals .279 47,294,000 n/a