the rockies pitch religion, take 2

[west coast orange and black]

the original "the rockies pitch religion" thread was quashed because many posts were not related to the topic at hand. so please stick to the menu, as there are no substitutes:
it's the news story of the rockies making a conscious effort to sign players whom they believe to have "character", read: christians.

the article was written without gaining a pulitzer in mind, but if you can read through the writer's sarcasm and want to post, please do so... as long as it is pertinent.

non-pertinent posts will not be tolerated.

many thanx. tony.

. . . . . . . . .

In a remarkable article from Wednesday's USA Today (31 may 2006), the Colorado Rockies went public with the news that the organization has been explicitly looking for players with "character." And according to the Tribe of Coors, "character" means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior. "We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd said. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

Manager Clint Hurdle claims he became a Christian three years ago and says, "We're not going to hide it. We're not going to deny it. This is who we are."

GM Dan O'Dowd believes that their 27-26 2006 record has resulted from the active intervention of the Almighty. "You look at things that have happened to us this year. You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."


here is the complete article (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060619/zirin)

[Elvis]

I wonder how this would play out in another city. Denver is pretty much a wasp town anyway. Good luck to Los Angeles, Miami or New York ever trying this. It definitely wouldn't fly.

[west coast orange and black]

yeah, i agree.
san francisco giants fans would collectively go bonkers if the brass made a move like this.

[RuthMayBond]

And according to the Tribe of Coors, "character" means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior. Is this an actual quote from the article? (and even if it is, it sounds like the writer's "editorialism"

[west coast orange and black]

rhumba:dance man: Is this an actual quote from the article? (and even if it is, it sounds like the writer's "editorialism")

this passage from the article i find key, rmb:
"We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd said. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

i find it important because o'dowd is hinting that the news of the rockies actively pursuing christians may not be received well. he is not talking about pursuing players of character -- that would not be a belief; not many would be offended at a conscious effort to sign that type of player.

[Jake83]

San Francisco

[redbuck]

Wow. This is amazing. :)

27-26 isn't that great of a record.

[RedSoxVT92]

The Rockies should build their team on talent not on religion. It just dont seem right to be doing it based on belife.

What will help there record is to have a balance of good hitters and pitchers (mainly good pitchers cause Coors Field is a nightmare for them)

[Elvis]

Someone should tell Clint Hurdle that it's the big DODGER in the sky, not the big Rocky.

They should concentrate on converting saves instead of souls. :laugh

[VTSoxFan]

I gotta hand it to you, Tony; you got moxie, reintroducing this thread, after the other one erupted like Krakatoa. I hope this one doesn't fly off in all directions.

Someone in the last thread mentioned the 2004 Red Sox, and their cohesiveness based partly on the shared faith of a number of the players. I don't doubt or dispute this. The thing is.... the management didn't go out and look for players of any specific faith or creed. They looked for good, solid, dependable ballplayers. Among the more (Protestant) religious players, Trot Nixon was signed in '93 and Varitek came over in '97 (the Duquette era), Mike Timlin and Billy Mueller came over before the '03 season, Schilling for the '04 season. I don't think it was planned. In fact I'd be quite surprised to learn anything of the sort. Especially given that Theo Epstein is Jewish.... (isn't he? I have the impression that he is.)

The team was built on skill and talent, and many of them happened to share a faith. Building a team around a shared faith will not necessarily work in the other direction, translating into chemistry and success.

The Rockies, as has been said by many, had ought to look for talented players, and kudos to them if they are honorable men as well. Being of a certain faith does not guarantee purity of character, and certainly doesn't guarantee success on the diamond.

[tonjes]

i don't understand why so much is being made of this. while the rockies are making an effort to sign christians because they believe christians are "people of character", they have never come out to say that people of character are limited to christians. christians have done a lot of things that have contributed to their arrogant/simplistic/ignorant reputation, and when that's the case, it's important to write about it and discuss it. there are also a lot of times where christians are unfairly portrayed as arrogant/simplistic/ignorant, and i think what's going on in colorado is being spun this way...

(...and theo epstein is jewish)

[RuthMayBond]

please delete

[rockin500]

the rockies should definitely be looking talent first, then when you find the guys with the talent, look at their character. Talent should be the ultimate deciding factor, but if you have two guys who are of equal value and one is a "better" character guy, then you take the better character guy. If a team wants to decide that a player who is religious equals good character (provided that they dont just use that since there are always some who have big time skeletons and use religion as a front.)

[VTSoxFan]

Tony, you're rhumba-ing around my direct question :waving

RMB, lemme answer your direct question: yes, it is a quote from the article. Here are the two sentences preceding the bit Tony quoted above:

In a remarkable article from Wednesday's USA Today, the Colorado Rockies went public with the news that the organization has been explicitly looking for players with "character." And according to the Tribe of Coors, "character" means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior.

[RuthMayBond]

RMB, lemme answer your direct question: yes, it is a quote from the article. Here are the two sentences preceding the bit Tony quoted above:So it's a reporter's editorialism (based on the REST of the article, which people seem to ignore). Thank you

[SamtheBravesFan]

You know... this whole character thing... I think it might be steroids-related. Someone of high character is assumed not to be taking steroids.

[wamby]

I find that I am in complete agreement with the article. I wonder if this was something that Dan O'Dowd was pushing for when he was assistant GM of the Indians. I don't think that Cleveland is an area in which this would go over very in either.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

yeah, i agree.
san francisco giants fans would collectively go bonkers if the brass made a move like this.
I'm not sure you speak for all Giants fans. As a 28 year Giants' fan it wouldn't bother me. I'd even welcome it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The Rockies should build their team on talent not on religion. It just dont seem right to be doing it based on belife.

What will help there record is to have a balance of good hitters and pitchers (mainly good pitchers cause Coors Field is a nightmare for them)
As I said several times before, I'm sure the Rockies want character guys that can actually play some baseball. It's not like they are just picking players just because they are Christian. Why do some keep saying that the Rockies will only go after Christian guys?

[Jake83]

"Time for our group prayer before the game" shouts Hurdle above the crowd as the home team takes the field .
"Atkins you can lead us tonight." Hurdle demands.
"But, coach you know I am agnostic" informs Atkins.
"Hey Gonzalez you are the starting 3rd basemen" Hurdle says

News out of Denver the Colorado Rockies have just released 3B Garrett Atkins because of supposed clubhouse disturbances. No one has been able to get any information of the suspected disturbances-Reports ESPN :laugh

[cup2006sensrule]

Gotta question the validity of this blog entry since the link to the USA today article which is the source doesn't work.

But if this is true it is pretty pathetic. A baseball organization owned by a brewery playing in a field named after a beer brand is seeking good Christian ball players.......

That is a recipe for losing. Professional sports is the ultimate Meritocracy. If you choose talent any other way than by talent and athletic skill you are going to be a loser. What do they do at the draft? Draft the best available player from a Christian school?

If this blog is true... And to me it seems exagerated, but if it is true and players and coaches are suddenly becoming born again Christians to keep their jobs then that is just so incredibly pathetic and sad.

I'm all for Character guys. Guys that don't beat their wives, drink and drive or do drugs. Guys that show up for work everyday. But their religion is pretty irrelevant, actually completely irrelevant to winning baseball games.

[Elvis]

I'm all for Character guys. Guys that don't beat their wives, drink and drive or do drugs. Guys that show up for work everyday.

Geez, I guy's gotta have some fun. No offence, but you sound pretty intollerant of people of faith.

[cup2006sensrule]

Geez, I guy's gotta have some fun. No offence, but you sound pretty intollerant of people of faith.

I am pretty anti-religous every since I was 6 or 7 and in Sunday school teachers told me fantastic stories from the bible and I asked questions about them as a curious and intelligent child does and the teachers had ridiculous clearly untrue answers. I became an agnostic pretty early.

Knowing and being interested in dinosaurs and knowing they were millions of years old and being told that they were only thousands of years old and that god put them in the ground to make people 'curious'.

So unfortunately I can not shake a real disbelief that millions or billions of people on the planet believe in religion.

Or that a professional sports franchise would care whether or not a person is Christian or not. As it is pretty much completely irrelevant in sports.

[KHenry14]

What strikes me is that this could turn off potential F/A from going to Colorado. For example, Shawn Green might really like to play in Coors, as a lot of lefty hitters have done well there. But as we all know, Shawn is devoutly Jewish, and at the same time a man of great character. If I was Shawn, I'd question whether I'd want to go there after hearing this story.

[Mattingly]

Why do you have the impression Theo is Jewish.....?
Would the last name of "Epstein" mean anything? Or would you prefer "Green", "Rosenbaum" or "Katz". :D

[flash143817]

Seems like a real stretch editorial by a writer that is obviously praying (pun intended) that it all comes crashing down in the Rockies' face.

The Rockies can run their organization the way they believe (another pun intended) will help them be the most successful. If they have decided that going after players that happen to observe the least tolerated religion by the media will make them most successful, then that's their perogative.

And as was stated before, maybe this will cost them some free agents. Maybe it will also gain them some others that feel it would be a good situation for them. I think it will play both ways.

And if players don't happen to believe in the same things that the Rockies are supposedly believing, then they would be fools to come to Colorado and put themselves in a situation that would be no-win for either side.

It would be like someone who is anti-religion coming to a church and standing up in the middle of the service to tell them how wrong or stupid they believe them to be. Or from the other side it would be like a Christian going to a group of people who are anti-religious (which I guess is somewhat like a religion in itself) and telling them that not believing in a religion is stupid.


It goes the same way from the fan perspective. Nobody is forcing anyone to root for the Rockies. If someone doesn't agree with them, then don't root for them. If you like what they are doing and see it as positive, then root for them.

This whole thing really has no need to be a big deal at all unless some journalist is out of ideas and has to scrape the barrel for something.

[Metal Ed]

Wow. This is amazing. :)

27-26 isn't that great of a record.

The Rockies are in last place.

As George Carlin said, "These guys are in last place. Must be another one of those 'miracles'."

[Mattingly]

Carlin = God. That's my religion. Respect it. :D

Adds nothing to the discussion? This whole thread is off topic for a basbeall forum. There's no discussion of baseball here, just religion.
I'm not too sure about this being a full religious thread. I do believe that a bit of baseball as it pertains to the Rockies should be dealt with.

[west coast orange and black]

rmb: Tony, you're rhumba-ing around my direct question

dude, you asked if it was a direct quote from the article and i provided the quote from the article. :lookitup

[west coast orange and black]

san francisco giants fans would collectively go bonkers if the brass made a move like this.

wags: I'm not sure you speak for all Giants fans. As a 28 year Giants' fan it wouldn't bother me. I'd even welcome it.

no, not all, wags. but the great majority of those living in the bay area, at the very least.

[RuthMayBond]

rmb: Tony, you're rhumba-ing around my direct question

dude, you asked if it was a direct quote from the article and i provided the quote from the article. :lookitupSorry, it seemed like that quote was a little different from the rest of the article.

[va_nats_fan]

Isn't there some constitutional amendment requiring separation of church and sport?

I suppose on some level it's no worse than the coach who leads the team in a prayer before the big game. Those movie scenes have always made me uncomfortable. This article makes me really uncomfortable. Faith Night at the ballpark? Holy cow.

On the other hand, it smells strongly like a heavy layer of spin was applied to the writing of this article.

[bluezebra]

I guess the Rockies would turn down a Sandy Koufax, Hank Greenberg, Ken Holtzman, Norm Sherry, Mike Epstein, Richie Scheinblum, Ron Blomberg, Bob Tufts, Elliott Maddox, and Joe Ginsberg. And don't forget the WWII OSS agent, Moe Berg.

Current Jewish players: Brad Ausmus of Houston, John Grabow of Pittsburgh, Shawn Green of Los Angeles, Gabe Kapler of Boston, Al Levine of Detroit, Mike Lieberthal of Philadelphia, Jason Marquis of St. Louis, Scott Schoeneweis of the Chicago White Sox, Justin Wayne of Florida and David Newhan of Baltimore.

The Rockies (rocks in the head), like others, believe that only Christians have morals. How do they explain all the hate groups that have Christ(ian) in their names, and display crosses?

Bob

[RuthMayBond]

[QUOTE=va_nats_fan] <On the other hand, it smells strongly like a heavy layer of spin was applied to the writing of this article.>

Now we're getting somewhere (although people STILL twist it where the Rockies will only hire Christians, which isn't true IF ONE READS THE ARTICLE)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I guess the Rockies would turn down a Sandy Koufax, Hank Greenberg, Ken Holtzman, Norm Sherry, Mike Epstein, Richie Scheinblum, Ron Blomberg, Bob Tufts, Elliott Maddox, and Joe Ginsberg. And don't forget the WWII OSS agent, Moe Berg.

Current Jewish players: Brad Ausmus of Houston, John Grabow of Pittsburgh, Shawn Green of Los Angeles, Gabe Kapler of Boston, Al Levine of Detroit, Mike Lieberthal of Philadelphia, Jason Marquis of St. Louis, Scott Schoeneweis of the Chicago White Sox, Justin Wayne of Florida and David Newhan of Baltimore.

The Rockies (rocks in the head), like others, believe that only Christians have morals. How do they explain all the hate groups that have Christ(ian) in their names, and display crosses?

Bob
Why would the Rockies turn these players down? When did the Rockies ever say they would only sign Christian players? :confused:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

san francisco giants fans would collectively go bonkers if the brass made a move like this.

wags: I'm not sure you speak for all Giants fans. As a 28 year Giants' fan it wouldn't bother me. I'd even welcome it.

no, not all, wags. but the great majority of those living in the bay area, at the very least.

Well maybe in San Francisco. But, Tony, you know that the majority of the Giants' fans are in the South and East Bay, areas a bit more conservative the The City.

[Captain Cold Nose]

But you have no problem with Gay Days at Disney?

<On the other hand, it smells strongly like a heavy layer of spin was applied to the writing of this article.>

Now we're getting somewhere (although people STILL twist it where the Rockies will only hire Christians, which isn't true IF ONE READS THE ARTICLE)
That has been my contention from the beginning. This is cut and paste to the writer/editor's taste journalism at its finest.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Well maybe in San Francisco. But, Tony, you know that the majority of the Giants' fans are in the South and East Bay, areas a bit more conservative the The City...By the way was one of my posts "censored"?
Yeah, you belittled George Carlin. That's a no-no.
I think a few of the more off topic variety of posts, including one of mine (moderating a moderator? Heavens!) were removed. This thread doesn't need to stray. At all.

[RuthMayBond]

Why would there be a problem with this?So you don't have a problem with Faith Nights?

[wamby]

So you don't have a problem with Faith Nights?

As long as I don't get preached too, I don't.

So, what is the problem with gay days?

[RuthMayBond]

As long as I don't get preached too, I don't.

So, what is the problem with gay days?
You have an opportunity to leave the park before you get "preached to" on Faith Night (at least at similar ones that I've been to), but I doubt they wait until all the straights are gone to "show their pride"

[The Big C]

I don't have a problem with either, but neither are all inclusive.

The difference, though, is that the majority of Americans are Christians, whereas only about 10% are homosexual.

[wamby]

You have an opportunity to leave the park before you get "preached to" on Faith Night (at least at similar ones that I've been to), but I doubt they wait until all the straights are gone to "show their pride"

What's wrong with showing some pride? Is it the same as preaching to someone?

[flash143817]

What's wrong with showing some pride? Is it the same as preaching to someone?


Pretty much. Either way you are displaying your beliefs proudly for others to make a decision on.

[wamby]

Pretty much. Either way you are displaying your beliefs proudly for others to make a decision on.

I can't say that I agree with you statement.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I can't say that I agree with you statement.
Why not? Don't you do everything with what other might think in mind?

[Metal Ed]

Pretty much. Either way you are displaying your beliefs proudly for others to make a decision on.


You consider homosexuality a belief system?

And what exactly is "gay day"? I've never even heard of it up until now. Free admission for gay people? Or gay people trying to convert you to gay? For that matter, what goes on at Faith Night? I'm trying to see how one is comparable to the other.

Edit: I see from the article that Faith Night means guest speakers talking about their faith and displaying their faith. So on gay day, do gays display their gayness by having intercourse in public? Because that would be illegal.

[wamby]

Why not? Don't you do everything with what other might think in mind?

I think there is a difference is showing what you stand for and in actually preaching to others about it.

As for me, there is stuff I do where I consider what others might think. But there is stuff I do, that I'm not concerned about what others think about it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I think there is a difference is showing what you stand for and in actually preaching to others about it.

As for me, there is stuff I do where I consider what others might think. But there is stuff I do, that I'm not concerned about what others think about it.
Precisely. Bottom line is, not a single one of us, no matter who or where we are, is actually in a position to judge anyone based on their beliefs, lifestyles, backgrounds or genetic makeups.
King's Island in Cincinnati has for years had days where there is an abundance of gay patrons, with all of them wearing red as a sign of pride. I guess what happens at Disney is similar.

[wamby]

Precisely. Bottom line is, not a single one of us, no matter who or where we are, is actually in a position to judge anyone based on their beliefs, lifestyles, backgrounds or genetic makeups.
King's Island in Cincinnati has for years had days where there is an abundance of gay patrons, with all of them wearing red as a sign of pride. I guess what happens at Disney is similar.

I guess you should tell someone who is bothered by it then.

BUt then, would you be bothered by someone who felt that their group was superior to others? I think that's a big reason that some people don't like the mesage sent out by the Rockies.

[Jake83]

I guess you should tell someone who is bothered by it then. BUt then, you be bothered by someone who felt that their group was superior to others? I think that's a big reason that some people don't like the mesage sent out by the Rockies.


They are making supposed Christian values paramount over values of all others. The point is that because someone is lets say a satanic worshipper does that automatically say the person values are less the others or is a Christian just because he attends church every Sunday and gives small amounts of money to the Church does that mean he is better than the man who never attends church and keeps his money for himself and family.

[wamby]

They are making supposed Christian values paramount over values of all others. The point is that because someone is lets say a satanic worshipper does that automatically say the person values are less the others or is a Christian just because he attends church every Sunday and gives small amounts of money to the Church does that mean he is better than the man who never attends church and keeps his money for himself and family.

You are preaching to the choir here, so to speak.

[Jake83]

You are preaching to the choir here, so to speak.


This ideology has been around for awhile. Lets take it back to another situtation about 50 years ago a store owner would rather hire the a White who in the past has show a lack of character than an African American who throughout his life has lived by a set of values. Man should be judge on who he is and what he shows not his religious beliefs and race.

[Bench 5]

Isn't this the team that has Jose Mesa on it? The guy who said he wants to kill Omar Vizquel due to some silly comments made in a book. Mesa was also charged with rape 10 years ago. If someone like that can pass their test for character then their policy is pretty shoddy.

It's one thing to establish a business practice based upon Christian beliefs but it's another thing if you only hire people of a certain faith. I'm not sure if that's what their position is but if so I don't like it. I say that as a Christian.

[RuthMayBond]

Isn't this the team that has Jose Mesa on it? Mesa was also charged with rape 10 years ago.Tried but found innocent

<It's one thing to establish a business practice based upon Christian beliefs but it's another thing if you only hire people of a certain faith. I'm not sure if that's what their position is but if so I don't like it.>

Well, some of you could actually read the article :rolleyes:

[Captain Cold Nose]

I guess you should tell someone who is bothered by it then.

BUt then, would you be bothered by someone who felt that their group was superior to others? I think that's a big reason that some people don't like the mesage sent out by the Rockies.
I'm just saying Disney is hardly the only place where Gays assemble openly. And not a single person has been harmed. It's not a big deal, nor is it the same as faith nights because those who also go to those amusement parks who aren't gay probably wouldn't even be able to tell what is going on without advanced knowledge.
I am absolutely bothered by claims of superiority based on nothing more than a "because that is my belief". The problem is, I am not convinced, based on what has been posted as an article, the Rockies actually have some sort of exclusionist policy. Now, they probably could have been more tactful in how their message is coming across, because when member of a particular group say they're looking for like-minded but not necessary of the same spirituality people to be part of their team, it's not going to be interpreted very well, because that air of superiority is there. We all want to be good people, but the defining elements of what a good person is is not limited by a belief system.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm just saying Disney is hardly the only place where Gays assemble openly.That wasn't the point

<And not a single person has been harmed.>

Kinda sounds like Faith Night :D

<It's not a big deal, nor is it the same as faith nights because those who also go to those amusement parks who aren't gay probably wouldn't even be able to tell what is going on without advanced knowledge.>

If you say so

<I am not convinced, based on what has been posted as an article, the Rockies actually have some sort of exclusionist policy.>

Someone actually read the article :clapping :clapping

[Metal Ed]

Tried but found innocent

<It's one thing to establish a business practice based upon Christian beliefs but it's another thing if you only hire people of a certain faith. I'm not sure if that's what their position is but if so I don't like it.>

Well, some of you could actually read the article :rolleyes:


The article says that the are "explicitly looking for" players who are Christian. What does that mean? Are they only going to be hiring Christian players, or is it just that they would really prefer that their players be Christian? What exactly is going on here? Of course either scenario would still constitute discrimination based upon religion, though the latter would be a lesser degree of discrimination than the former.

[RuthMayBond]

The article says that the are "explicitly looking for" players who are Christian. What does that mean? Are they only going to be hiring Christian players, or is it just that they would really prefer that their players be Christian? What exactly is going on here? Of course either scenario would still constitute discrimination based upon religion, though the latter would be a lesser degree of discrimination than the former.That is the AUTHOR'S biased opinion, NOT the quotes from the Rockies in the USA Today article (interesting, the link doesn't work)

[wamby]

I am absolutely bothered by claims of superiority based on nothing more than a "because that is my belief". The problem is, I am not convinced, based on what has been posted as an article, the Rockies actually have some sort of exclusionist policy. Now, they probably could have been more tactful in how their message is coming across, because when member of a particular group say they're looking for like-minded but not necessary of the same spirituality people to be part of their team, it's not going to be interpreted very well, because that air of superiority is there. We all want to be good people, but the defining elements of what a good person is is not limited by a belief system.

I am bothered by the same thing. From the article, I don't get the sense that the Rockies are only interested in christian ballplayers. What I don't like is the fact that a player being a christian is such a high criterian for determining the said players character. I've never understood why having certain religous beliefs automatically makes someone believe you are a good person or have good character.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The article says that the are "explicitly looking for" players who are Christian. What does that mean? Are they only going to be hiring Christian players, or is it just that they would really prefer that their players be Christian? What exactly is going on here? Of course either scenario would still constitute discrimination based upon religion, though the latter would be a lesser degree of discrimination than the former.
That's the columnists's take on that. Nowhere in the "article" is a member of the Rockies organization actually saying that.
I said it in the first thread before it got totally hijacked and I'll say it again. If this was actually the policy, the ACLU, who shouts what they do from the rooftops, would be all over them in a second.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Guys, please. Tony reintroduced the thread because this is a viable topic as long as we stay on topic. It is very much in danger of moving away from that.

[Bench 5]

<It's one thing to establish a business practice based upon Christian beliefs but it's another thing if you only hire people of a certain faith. I'm not sure if that's what their position is but if so I don't like it.>

Well, some of you could actually read the article :rolleyes:

Well, some of you could actually read the posts. :p

Actually I did read the article and heard quite a bit about it on the radio yesterday. The article implies that they are looking to hire people that are Christian. As I said before I'm not sure if that is their official position. Maybe this writer is taking things out of context. If it is their position then I don't like it. If not it wouldn't be the first time someone in the media has bashed people of faith for no reason. I guess we will find out more over time.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Guys, please. Tony reintroduced the thread because this is a viable topic as long as we stay on topic. It is very much in danger of moving away from that.
To me the issues are this:

1) The Rockies want to focus on "christian" ballplayers because they think "christian" ballplayers, in general, are "character" guys. This doesn't mean non-Christian players can't be "character" players.

2) The Rockies DID NOT say they will NOT sign non-Christian ballplayers

3) Even if the Rockies wanted to sign only Christian ballplayers that would not be practical and doesn't make any business sense.

4) This is NOT discrimination by the Rockies. The Rockies are a private organization. Baseball teams are unlike most businesses. Anti-trust laws does not apply to baseball and is extremely exclusionary in that so few men have the necessay talent to play at the major league level.

5) They can choose whatever ballplayers they want. All professional sports teams do this now. Why do you think they do background investigations, give intellegence tests, and drug tests? Player payroll is extremely expensive in baseball. I think the teams have to right to find out of a potential player will be able to play and not be distracted by legal issues, drugs, or immoral behavor that makes the team look bad.

I think it's scary that some people, you know who you are :D , think they have the right to tell other people how to run their business and who to hire.

[Metal Ed]

That is the AUTHOR'S biased opinion, NOT the quotes from the Rockies in the USA Today article (interesting, the link doesn't work)

Maybe you shouldn't have asked me to "read the article" if you believed it didn't portray the Rockies correctly. I did what you asked, read the article, then you tell me that the article is incorrect. I can't win.

But I found this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2006-05-30-rockies-cover_x.htm

which seems to be more informative. Basically, it seems that a lot of the guys on the club are Christians. It's not clear to me, however, if the reason why there are no issues of Playboy and the only reading material are newspapers, sports magazines, car magazines and the Bible, is because the players, being Christian, have themselves chosen those items, or because it's club policy that those are the acceptable reading materials. If the players chose this for themselves, even as an atheist/Joe Pesci-ist, I don't see what the big deal is. It's their right.

But overall, the article doesn't make it 100% clear how Christian they are, or how they came to be that way. At one point, they are called a "Christian team". But at another point, they say that they don't require you to be a Christian in order to be on the team. Great! No problem. But then you're not a Christian team, you're a team with some being, but not all being, Christians on it. There's also the question of how they came to be "a Christian team." Was the team constructed based on non-religious issues (talent, money, etc.), and then did a lot of them realize "hey! almost all of us are Christians here!" ? Or did management, being Christians themselves, end up getting more Christian players, either through a deliberate effort to get more Christians, or by inadvertently favoring Christians without realizing it? It's not clear.

[RuthMayBond]

If the players chose this for themselves, even as an atheist/Joe Pesci-ist, I don't see what the big deal is. It's their right.

at another point, they say that they don't require you to be a Christian in order to be on the team. Great! No problem.Sorry, I meant the less-biased USA Today article, which you have read and seen how much the "problem" is overexaggerrated

[Elvis]

Here's a question for any who wish to answer:

What if a team said it was looking for ballplayers with "character" of ANY faith. In other words, players who are active in their faith, be it devout jews, catholics, protestants, muslims, mormons... and had the divirsety on the team to "prove" it.

Would this be any less offensive? Or would the discrimination against "lazy" christians, athiests and agnostics be just as bad?

EDIT: to clarify "lazy"

[sandlot]

Here's a question for any who wish to answer:
What if a team said it was looking for ballplayers with "character" of ANY faith. In other words, players who are active in their faith, be it devout jews, catholics, protestants, muslims, mormons... and had the divirsety on the team to "prove" it. Would this be any less offensive? Or would the "discrimination" against the "lazy", athiests and agnostics and be just as bad?Given the gross crimes against humanity that have been, and still are being committed around the world in the name of God, I think that any team espousing what you've described would be an extremely blinkered and ignorant organization. It would also be discriminatory and offensive. Moreover, who's to stay that either atheism or agnosticism is "lazy"? Many people have deliberated long and hard over deeply spiritual questions to arrive at these positions, and those deliberations might be ongoing, life-long inner struggles. Others have suffered greatly in order to defend the right not to believe what some group, asserting dominance, says they must. And these may be persons of great character and self-discipline. I refer back to an earlier post: Take the time to research the Adolph Coors family, and see whether you can easily arrive at the conclusion that owning a largely Christian team resulted from mere chance.

[Elvis]

Given the gross crimes against humanity that have been, and still are being committed around the world in the name of God, I think that any team espousing what you've described would be an extremely blinkered and ignorant organization. It would also be discriminatory and offensive. Moreover, who's to stay that either atheism or agnosticism is "lazy"? Many people have deliberated long and hard over deeply spiritual questions to arrive at these positions, and those deliberations might be ongoing, life-long inner struggles. Others have suffered greatly in order to defend the right not to believe what some group, asserting dominance, says they must. And these may be persons of great character and self-discipline. I refer back to an earlier post: Take the time to research the Adolph Coors family, and see whether you can easily arrive at the conclusion that owning a largely Christian team resulted from mere chance.

Whoa, I didn't say lazy agnostics or athiests. I meant "lazy" as in "lazy christians/jews", meaning someone who calls himself a christian/jew, for example, but never goes to church/temple nor prays, nor has read the bible, comma, then agnostic and athiest.

To another point, gross crimes against humanity have also been commited in just as horrific numbers by those not in the name of God. Stalin, Hitler, Rwanda etc.. I don't think it's fair to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Mother Theresa, and those like her of all faiths, are also part of the broad religous picture too. You can't say that because people kill in the name of God that the worship of God is wrong.

[Sweet Lou]

To me the issues are this:

1) The Rockies want to focus on "christian" ballplayers because they think "christian" ballplayers, in general, are "character" guys. This doesn't mean non-Christian players can't be "character" players.

2) The Rockies DID NOT say they will NOT sign non-Christian ballplayers

3) Even if the Rockies wanted to sign only Christian ballplayers that would not be practical and doesn't make any business sense.

4) This is NOT discrimination by the Rockies. The Rockies are a private organization. Baseball teams are unlike most businesses. Anti-trust laws does not apply to baseball and is extremely exclusionary in that so few men have the necessay talent to play at the major league level.

5) They can choose whatever ballplayers they want. All professional sports teams do this now. Why do you think they do background investigations, give intellegence tests, and drug tests? Player payroll is extremely expensive in baseball. I think the teams have to right to find out of a potential player will be able to play and not be distracted by legal issues, drugs, or immoral behavor that makes the team look bad.

I think it's scary that some people, you know who you are :D , think they have the right to tell other people how to run their business and who to hire.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Thank you. :)
Lou

[wamby]

That's the columnists's take on that. Nowhere in the "article" is a member of the Rockies organization actually saying that.
I said it in the first thread before it got totally hijacked and I'll say it again. If this was actually the policy, the ACLU, who shouts what they do from the rooftops, would be all over them in a second.

I don't think the ACLU would be involved in this, I don't think this is a first amendment issue,

[wamby]

That's the columnists's take on that. Nowhere in the "article" is a member of the Rockies organization actually saying that.
I said it in the first thread before it got totally hijacked and I'll say it again. If this was actually the policy, the ACLU, who shouts what they do from the rooftops, would be all over them in a second.

I'm a little suprised that people are suprised about the articles slant. It is from the Nation, after all.

[Sweet Lou]

Baseball's Rockies seek revival on two levels

By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY

DENVER — No copies of Playboy or Penthouse are in the clubhouse of baseball's Colorado Rockies. There's not even a Maxim. The only reading materials are daily newspapers, sports and car magazines and the Bible.

Music filled with obscenities, wildly popular with youth today and in many other clubhouses, is not played. A player will curse occasionally but usually in hushed tones. Quotes from Scripture are posted in the weight room. Chapel service is packed on Sundays. Prayer and fellowship groups each Tuesday are well-attended. It's not unusual for the front office executives to pray together.

On the field, the Rockies are trying to make the playoffs for the first time in 11 seasons and only the second time in their 14-year history. Behind the scenes, they quietly have become an organization guided by Christianity — open to other religious beliefs but embracing a Christian-based code of conduct they believe will bring them focus and success.

From ownership on down, it's an approach the Rockies are proud of — and something they are wary about publicizing. "We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd says. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings says: "They do preach character and good living here. It's a must for them, and that starts from the very top. But we're not a military group. ... Nobody is going to push their beliefs on each other or make judgments. We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

The Rockies, at 27-24 entering Tuesday, are having their best season since 1995 with a payroll of $44 million, the lowest in the National League's West Division. Their season ticketholders and fans are, for the most part, unaware of the significance the Rockies place on Christian values.

"I had no idea they were a Christian team. ... I would love for them to talk about their Christianity publicly," says Tim Boettcher, 42, a season ticketholder for 12 years and an elder at the Hosanna Lutheran Church in Littleton, Colo. "It makes sense because of the way they conduct themselves. You don't see the showboating and the trash talking. ... They look like a team and act like a team."

That's a departure from the team's recent past. Colorado has averaged 91 losses the last five years, the legacy of costly personnel decisions that didn't pan out.

"We had to go to hell and back to know where the Holy Grail is. We went through a tough time and took a lot of arrows," says Rockies chairman and CEO Charlie Monfort, one of the original owners.

Monfort did, too. He says that after years of partying, including 18 months' probation for driving while impaired, he became a Christian three years ago. It influenced how he wanted to run the club, he says.

"We started to go after character six or seven years ago, but we didn't follow that like we should have," he says. "I don't want to offend anyone, but I think character-wise we're stronger than anyone in baseball. Christians, and what they've endured, are some of the strongest people in baseball. I believe God sends signs, and we're seeing those."

The use of faith as a motivator and team-builder isn't unusual in sports.

A few minor league teams — particularly in the South — have held Faith Night promotions for churchgoing fans that have featured rock concerts and even sermons. It's common to see groups of professional football and basketball players in postgame prayer circles.

The Rockies' approach is unusual in that religious doctrine is a guide for running a franchise. The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.

"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."

Is it possible that some Rockies are playing the role of good Christians just to stay in the team's good graces? Yes, former Rockies say.

"They have a great group of guys over there, but I've never been in a clubhouse where Christianity is the main purpose," says San Francisco Giants first baseman-outfielder Mark Sweeney, a veteran of seven organizations who spent 2003 and 2004 with the Rockies. "You wonder if some people are going along with it just to keep their jobs.

"Look, I pray every day," Sweeney says. "I have faith. It's always been part of my life. But I don't want something forced on me. Do they really have to check to see whether I have a Playboy in my locker?"

Approach not for everyone

Other baseball executives say they appreciate the Rockies' new emphasis on good character but say they would never try to build a team of Christian believers.

"You don't hear about it so much with their players, but you hear about it with their front office," San Diego Padres general manager Kevin Towers says. "That's not us. ... We wouldn't do that. But who's to say they're wrong for doing that?"

The Rockies, who tied for the second-worst record in baseball last year at 67-95, are on pace to finish with a franchise-record 86 wins. They have had at least a share of first place for 32 days and were in first as recently as May 21.

They have fine pitching, led by starters Aaron Cook, Jeff Francis and Jennings, and a bullpen anchored by Brian Fuentes is on target for the lowest earned run average in franchise history.

Their defense ranks third in the league. All-Star first baseman Todd Helton, the face of the organization, has been joined by rising outfield stars Matt Holliday and Brad Hawpe.

"I'm very proud of the comeback they've made," says baseball Commissioner Bud Selig, adding he was unaware of the extent of the team's focus on religious values. "They have to do what they feel is right."

Helton, a regular at the team's chapel services, says: "There is a plan for everything. ... We have a lot of good people in here, people who care about each other. People who want to do what's right."

Hurdle, 48, who says he became a Christian three years ago, says of the team's devotion: "We're not going to hide it. We're not going to deny it. This is who we are."

While praising their players, Rockies executives make clear they believe God has had a hand in the team's improvement.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."

Arrest sparks change

By the time the sun rose Dec. 4, 2004, Rockies management had vowed the direction of the organization would change. Pitcher Denny Neagle had been charged with soliciting a prostitute, another embarrassment for a franchise that had not been competitive for years.

"God gave us a challenge right then and there," McGregor says. "You always say you want to do the right thing, but often in this business we warp our values and do less than what's the right thing."

Colorado released Neagle three days after his arrest — he joined the Tampa Bay Devil Rays but did not stick — and ended up paying $16 million of the $19 million owed him on his contract.

"It was an expensive, painful education," McGregor says.

Monfort says: "We had a great thing with the fans, making the playoffs in '95, selling out, and we just became arrogant. The honeymoon started waning, and we went into panic mode" by spending millions on free agent players who didn't pan out.

The Rockies say they welcome anyone regardless of religious beliefs. "We don't just go after Christian players," O'Dowd says. "That would be unfair to others. We go after players of character."

There have been exceptions. When the Rockies signed reliever Jose Mesa last December, they were aware of his 1996 rape charge, for which he was acquitted. O'Dowd, who knew Mesa, talked extensively to him and his agent before signing him. Mesa has appeared in the most games of any Rockies pitcher this season (27, with a 0-1 record and 3.52 ERA).

"Look, we don't want to come across as holier than thou. None of us are perfect," O'Dowd says. "But I just feel like if you have people with the right heart and their desires are with the right intent, what bad can come out of that?"

Monfort and McGregor have never shared their religious views at owners meetings, Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf says.

"It's interesting, but I had no idea. I don't think any of us do," says Reinsdorf, who, like Selig, is Jewish. "I do believe character is very important. But only to a point. Does this mean ... Babe Ruth (a Hall of Famer and notorious carouser) could never have played there?"

The Rockies' clean-living approach is reflected throughout the organization, including its minor league teams, Monfort says. "I don't want our 17-, 18-year-old kids to sign, leave mom and dad and be on the road for the first time and have to see and be part of" a typical clubhouse culture, he says.

Winning still important

Religion's role in baseball occasionally has created controversy, most recently in Washington.

The Washington Nationals suspended a volunteer chaplain and issued an apology last year after outfielder Ryan Church, a devout Christian, made public conversations he had with the chaplain about an ex-girlfriend who was Jewish. Church told The Washington Post he had asked Jon Moeller whether Jews were "doomed" because they "don't believe in Jesus." Church said Moeller "nodded, like, that's what it meant."

After Jewish community leaders complained, Church issued a statement saying, "I am not the type of person who would call into question the religious beliefs of others."

Helton echoes Rockies executives who say the team rejects intolerance. "I have never noticed anybody feeling uncomfortable here," he says. "We have good people here. ... Guys who stay out of trouble. Guys who go to Bible study every Tuesday. But it's still a baseball clubhouse."

Monfort says he realizes fans aren't going to flock to Coors Field to watch nice guys finish last. There still must be success on the field.

Colorado drew at least 3 million each of the first nine years of the franchise. But the Rockies haven't sold more than 2.7 million tickets in a season since 2001, and attendance fell to a franchise-low 1.9 million last year. They're on pace to draw 2 million this year.

"After the whole thing with Denny Neagle and contracts that didn't work out, they were the laughingstock on several different levels. It really left a bad taste for people," says Scot Minshall, 33, general manager of Jackson's Sports Rock bar, across the street from Coors Field. "Now there's actually something to cheer for."

As for whether the cheering will last, McGregor says, "Who knows where we go from here? The ability to handle success will be a big part of the story, too. There will be distractions. There will be things that can change people. But we truly do have something going on here. And (God's) using us in a powerful way."

[west coast orange and black]

"Look, we don't want to come across as holier than thou. None of us are perfect," [Rockies GM Dan] O'Dowd says.
"But I just feel like if you have people with the right heart and their desires are with the right intent, what bad can come out of that?"

historically, teams have been assembled nearly exclusively by which group of 25 will win the most games. that is, which players have the most talent. oh, roles need to be filled, there are payroll issues, and at times a team rejects a certain player for a specific reason.

but, assembling players based on "character"?

"We're nervous, to be honest with you," O'Dowd said. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

i gotta agree with zirin:
when people are nervous that they will offend you with their beliefs, it's usually because their beliefs are offensive.

the veil is translucent. time will tell if it becomes transparent.

[RuthMayBond]

Baseball's Rockies seek revival on two levels

By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY

Behind the scenes, they quietly have become an organization guided by Christianity — open to other religious beliefs but embracing a Christian-based code of conduct they believe will bring them focus and success.

"We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd says. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings says: "They do preach character and good living here. It's a must for them, and that starts from the very top. But we're not a military group. ... Nobody is going to push their beliefs on each other or make judgments. We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

Their season ticketholders and fans are, for the most part, unaware of the significance the Rockies place on Christian values.

"I had no idea they were a Christian team," says Tim Boettcher, 42, a season ticketholder for 12 years. "It makes sense because of the way they conduct themselves. You don't see the showboating and the trash talking. ... They look like a team and act like a team."

The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.

"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."

"You don't hear about it so much with their players," San Diego Padres general manager Kevin Towers says.

Helton, a regular at the team's chapel services, says: "There is a plan for everything. ... We have a lot of good people in here, people who care about each other. People who want to do what's right."

The Rockies say they welcome anyone regardless of religious beliefs. "We don't just go after Christian players," O'Dowd says. "That would be unfair to others. We go after players of character."

There have been exceptions. When the Rockies signed reliever Jose Mesa last December, they were aware of his 1996 rape charge, for which he was acquitted. O'Dowd, who knew Mesa, talked extensively to him and his agent before signing him.

"Look, we don't want to come across as holier than thou. None of us are perfect," O'Dowd says.

Monfort and McGregor have never shared their religious views at owners meetings, Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf says.

"It's interesting, but I had no idea. I don't think any of us do," says Reinsdorf, who, like Selig, is Jewish.

Helton echoes Rockies executives who say the team rejects intolerance. "I have never noticed anybody feeling uncomfortable here," he says. "We have good people here. ... Guys who stay out of trouble. Guys who go to Bible study every Tuesday. But it's still a baseball clubhouse."

Monfort says he realizes fans aren't going to flock to Coors Field to watch nice guys finish last. There still must be success on the field.Yeah, this sounds like an intolerant group that only hires Christians and cares nothing about on-field success :waving :gt

[RuthMayBond]

[i gotta agree with zirin:
when people are nervous that they will offend you with their beliefs, it's usually because their beliefs are offensive.Nice generalization. Maybe they're nervous that they will be attacked at least in writing.
Nah, couldn't happen, right, guys? :rolleyes:

[The Big C]

Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings says: "They do preach character and good living here. It's a must for them, and that starts from the very top. But we're not a military group. ... Nobody is going to push their beliefs on each other or make judgments. We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

The use of faith as a motivator and team-builder isn't unusual in sports.

The Rockies' approach is unusual in that religious doctrine is a guide for running a franchise. The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.

"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."

"You don't hear about it so much with their players, but you hear about it with their front office," San Diego Padres general manager Kevin Towers says. "That's not us. ... We wouldn't do that. But who's to say they're wrong for doing that?"

"I'm very proud of the comeback they've made," says baseball Commissioner Bud Selig, adding he was unaware of the extent of the team's focus on religious values. "They have to do what they feel is right."

The Rockies say they welcome anyone regardless of religious beliefs. "We don't just go after Christian players," O'Dowd says. "That would be unfair to others. We go after players of character."

"Look, we don't want to come across as holier than thou. None of us are perfect," O'Dowd says. "But I just feel like if you have people with the right heart and their desires are with the right intent, what bad can come out of that?"

Helton echoes Rockies executives who say the team rejects intolerance. "I have never noticed anybody feeling uncomfortable here," he says. "We have good people here. ... Guys who stay out of trouble. Guys who go to Bible study every Tuesday. But it's still a baseball clubhouse."

I think this stuff pretty much speaks for itself. Nobody from within is complaining, Bud Selig (who is Jewish) signed off on it, what more do you want?

[Elvis]

[COLOR="Gray"]
historically, teams have been assembled nearly exclusively by which group of 25 will win the most games. that is, which players have the most talent. oh, roles need to be filled, there are payroll issues, and at times a team rejects a certain player for a specific reason.

but, assembling players based on "character"?


A more accurate phrase would be, ..."assembling players in part based on character?"

Isn't that also a prerequisite for entry into Cooperstown?

[Johnny Thinslow]

I think Dan O'Dowd got it exactly right when he asserted that "You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God...definitely had a hand in this." So obvious is God's influence on the Rockies that one has to ask if an asterisk will be placed next to all the Rockies who have significant accomplishments this year. If Helton wins a batting title, for example, shouldn't the award go to God? When the Rockies win it all this year (and how can they miss), shouldn't the World's Championship title go to God? Will Clint Hurdle have enough humility to transfer title to the Manager-of-the-Year Award to the Prime Mover Himself? In the official National League standings, why even have Colorado listed at all? Simply put God up there in first place.

I suspect we do not have long to wait before Topps will be issuing a baseball card featuring God in a Colorado uniform, and soon after that, the Almighty wiil begin appearing at card shows and signing.

Why did the Lord decide to alight in Colorado? Probably, the tall mountains made his descent slightly easier, but no matter what the reason, we should all rejoice that at last He has returned. I am sure that Mr. Coors, right now, is preparing a commercial featuring the Supreme One belting down a cool one.

[wamby]

I think Dan O'Dowd got it exactly right when he asserted that "You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God...definitely had a hand in this." .

Then what about the losses? No hand of god there?

[W_Marone]

I read a quote today in Sports Illustrated from Todd Helton saying something the likes of "Were hated just the same as everyone else, probably should be hated more becuase we're ball players." I think it was something like that when he was commenting on the story about the Rockies only signing those who beleive in god. Something like that, I seem to have misplaced today's issue.

[sandlot]

Whoa, I didn't say lazy agnostics or athiests. I meant "lazy" as in "lazy christians/jews", meaning someone who calls himself a christian/jew, for example, but never goes to church/temple nor prays, nor has read the bible, comma, then agnostic and athiest.Thanks for the clarification. Although I see what you were trying to say, I think it still would be read by most people -- even with the comma -- as putting agnostics and atheists on a different plane than that of believers. My point is that for many people, agnosticism and atheism are also deeply held beliefs. And it might come as surprise to some of the Rockies' front office that non-believers have also suffered a lot over the centuries, and all too often it's been at the hand of Christians. A short history of The Inquisition would serve as a useful reference point, not to mention The Crusades.

To another point, gross crimes against humanity have also been commited in just as horrific numbers by those not in the name of God. Stalin, Hitler, Rwanda etc.. I don't think it's fair to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Mother Theresa, and those like her of all faiths, are also part of the broad religous picture too. You can't say that because people kill in the name of God that the worship of God is wrong.Nowhere did I suggest that worshipping God is wrong. I was responding directly to the question you posed: My view is that even if a club said it was open to all believers in God irrespectve of creed, it would still be discrimination because it's equating character with deism; in fact, it would be conflating character with deism. As I wrote, there's ample historical and contemporary evidence to show that belief in god, irrespective of particular theology, does not equate in any way with good character. There is no necessary cause-effect relationship between spiritualism and being a decent person, much less a good baseball player. What the Rockies' management is demostrating is the old "it works for me, so I think it should work for you, too" line of thinking. I have absolutely no problem, however, in any management wanting players who keep themselves out of jail, stay sober, help folks with white canes to cross the street, and don't abuse their spouses or kick the dog.

[flash143817]

Behind the scenes, they quietly have become an organization guided by Christianity — open to other religious beliefs but embracing a Christian-based code of conduct they believe will bring them focus and success.

Nothing wrong here. They are completely open and non-discriminatory toward all beliefs.


Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings says: "They do preach character and good living here. It's a must for them, and that starts from the very top. But we're not a military group. ... Nobody is going to push their beliefs on each other or make judgments. We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

Once again, they are not pushing their beliefs on anyone.





The Rockies' approach is unusual in that religious doctrine is a guide for running a franchise. The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.

Third time the article mentions that they are not intolerant toward other beliefs.


"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."

They don't go around taking a census of who is Christian and who isn't. Once again, no discrimination.




The Rockies say they welcome anyone regardless of religious beliefs. "We don't just go after Christian players," O'Dowd says. "That would be unfair to others. We go after players of character."

They don't believe it is only possible for Christians to have good character.


Overall, while they may be putting on a Christian front, they are in no way discriminating against other beliefs or players that might believe other things. They also made it clear that they do not strictly attempt to sign Christians or believe that only Christians can have good character. Overall, it looks like a pretty harmless situation for everyone.

[sandlot]

They don't believe it is only possible for Christians to have good character. (...) Overall, while they may be putting on a Christian front, they are in no way discriminating against other beliefs or players that might believe other things. They also made it clear that they do not strictly attempt to sign Christians or believe that only Christians can have good character. Overall, it looks like a pretty harmless situation for everyone.Hmmm, maybe yes, maybe no. Discrimination can be subtle. Suppose I need an OF and I could hire either of two players, who otherwise are more or less equal in talent, but I like A's values because he's a Zoroastrian, like me, so I choose him on that basis. Am I being fair or unfair to player B? On a deeper level, if I -- being a Zoroastrian -- know that A is also a Zoroastrian, will I tend to give his talent and "intangibles" a higher assessment than I otherwise would if he were a non-Zoroastrian? The most difficult discrimination to address is discrimination that occurs when someone thinks that he (or she) is really and truly fair, but when you look around the workplace you find that the workers are all or mostly from one group, be it the same race, gender, ethnic group, religion, language, whatever, so something is clearly at work. Now, let me flip it around: You're the player personnel guy for an MLB team and you're also deeply Christian. But you don't make a big deal out of it. Player C looks promising as an OF, so you hold some talks, and at some point before you shake hands on the deal, you say, "Okay, C, are there any last questions that you have about becoming a San Francisco Crab?" And C says, "Well, BHN, truth be told, what I'd really like to know is: Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?" Now, whom are you going to be more inclined to sign -- this guy? -- or the Zoroastrian OF who wanted to know if you had an special feelings about fire? I suspect that O'Dowd is perfectly aware that "character" is awfully close being a code word, and that's why the team's "nervous" about this. They know that if there were not something fundamentally disquieting about what they're doing, folks like us would not be discussing it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I read a quote today in Sports Illustrated from Todd Helton saying something the likes of "Were hated just the same as everyone else, probably should be hated more becuase we're ball players." I think it was something like that when he was commenting on the story about the Rockies only signing those who beleive in god. Something like that, I seem to have misplaced today's issue.
Close, he used the term dirtbags in reference to himself and his teammates. Either way, the spin from the Nation is coming to a halt.

[Metal Ed]

Hmmm, maybe yes, maybe no. Discrimination can be subtle. Suppose I need an OF and I could hire either of two players, who otherwise are more or less equal in talent, but I like A's values because he's a Zoroastrian, like me, so I choose him on that basis. Am I being fair or unfair to player B? On a deeper level, if I -- being a Zoroastrian -- know that A is also a Zoroastrian, will I tend to give his talent and "intangibles" a higher assessment than I otherwise would if he were a non-Zoroastrian? The most difficult discrimination to address is discrimination that occurs when someone thinks that he (or she) is really and truly fair, but when you look around the workplace you find that the workers are all or mostly from one group, be it the same race, gender, ethnic group, religion, language, whatever, so something is clearly at work. Now, let me flip it around: You're the player personnel guy for an MLB team and you're also deeply Christian. But you don't make a big deal out of it. Player C looks promising as an OF, so you hold some talks, and at some point before you shake hands on the deal, you say, "Okay, C, are there any last questions that you have about becoming a San Francisco Crab?" And C says, "Well, BHN, truth be told, what I'd really like to know is: Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?" Now, whom are you going to be more inclined to sign -- this guy? -- or the Zoroastrian OF who wanted to know if you had an special feelings about fire? I suspect that O'Dowd is perfectly aware that "character" is awfully close being a code word, and that's why the team's "nervous" about this. They know that if there were not something fundamentally disquieting about what they're doing, folks like us would not be discussing it.

Well put, I concur.

[W_Marone]

This doesnt seem to be getting much attention in the mainstream media at all...havent seen much if anything about it on ESPN or Sports Illustrated, etc. Only heard about it on here. Havent seen anything in the paper around here even mentioning it.

[RuthMayBond]

This doesnt seem to be getting much attention in the mainstream media at all...havent seen much if anything about it on ESPN or Sports Illustrated, etc. Only heard about it on here. Havent seen anything in the paper around here even mentioning it.Maybe because you guys are blowing the alleged "discrimination" out of proportion?

[W_Marone]

After reading how big the thread was on here I figured yeah this should be all over the news the way everyone on here is going post wild over this, but alass nothing at all, so I agree...not really a big deal. Its the owner's team, he owns it he sets the rules, and if it means being a christian so be it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Hmmm, maybe yes, maybe no. Discrimination can be subtle. Suppose I need an OF and I could hire either of two players, who otherwise are more or less equal in talent, but I like A's values because he's a Zoroastrian, like me, so I choose him on that basis. Am I being fair or unfair to player B?

Why do we worship this idea of "fairness" as if that is the highest ideal? In your example, it is YOUR team. YOU are the one making the decision. You are free to use whatever critieria YOU choose. "Fairness" has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that better players have to play behind inferior players only becuae the inferior player is a veteran?


On a deeper level, if I -- being a Zoroastrian -- know that A is also a Zoroastrian, will I tend to give his talent and "intangibles" a higher assessment than I otherwise would if he were a non-Zoroastrian?
Perhaps. But you haven't proved that selection based on specific criteria is wrong. You have only asserted it.


The most difficult discrimination to address is discrimination that occurs when someone thinks that he (or she) is really and truly fair, but when you look around the workplace you find that the workers are all or mostly from one group, be it the same race, gender, ethnic group, religion, language, whatever, so something is clearly at work.
Well if they don't they are discriminating and you do think they are discriminating who should we believe? People have always "discriminated" against others. The is the nature of mankind. If a person feels more confortable with a specific group of people who are you to tell him he is wrong?


Now, let me flip it around: You're the player personnel guy for an MLB team and you're also deeply Christian. But you don't make a big deal out of it. Player C looks promising as an OF, so you hold some talks, and at some point before you shake hands on the deal, you say, "Okay, C, are there any last questions that you have about becoming a San Francisco Crab?" And C says, "Well, BHN, truth be told, what I'd really like to know is: Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?" Now, whom are you going to be more inclined to sign -- this guy? -- or the Zoroastrian OF who wanted to know if you had an special feelings about fire?
Are the Rockies actually do this? Again, if the Rockies are doing this it is their right to do so. Though, I doubt they have been going around asking prospects if they have eternal salvation.


I suspect that O'Dowd is perfectly aware that "character" is awfully close being a code word, and that's why the team's "nervous" about this. They know that if there were not something fundamentally disquieting about what they're doing, folks like us would not be discussing it.
I doubt it is disquieting to the Rockies. I like the logic here. O'Dowd is nervous so it must be wrong to seek out "character" guys who are Chrisitan. I'm sure they are "nervous" because they know full well the media will try very hard to twist this around and try to make the Rockies look bad. Yet, O'Dowd and the Rockies still came forward and admitted to it and that takes guts in this day and age were one cannot even speak of faith, morality, and values in public without the fanatical secularists having a hissy fit. :o

[Sweet Lou]

i gotta agree with zirin:
when people are nervous that they will offend you with their beliefs, it's usually because their beliefs are offensive.
Nice generalization. Maybe they're nervous that they will be attacked at least in writing.
Nah, couldn't happen, right, guys?
I like the logic here. O'Dowd is nervous so it must be wrong to seek out "character" guys who are Chrisitan. I'm sure they are "nervous" because they know full well the media will try very hard to twist this around and try to make the Rockies look bad. Yet, O'Dowd and the Rockies still came forward and admitted to it and that takes guts in this day and age were one cannot even speak of faith, morality, and values in public without the fanatical secularists having a hissy fit.
Bingo. :)

It's unfortunate that Christians in general, (in general, not everyone) come across as holier-than-thou when the fundamental basis of Christianity is that we are NOT good people. I wish more folks could know that it's not about being a "good person"; indeed, it's the fact that we aren't "good" that causes all the world's problems, and that's why we need a relationship with Jesus Christ.
The Rockies have every right to be nervous, because this WILL be twisted and judged, and misunderstood. As a Christian myself, I'M very, VERY nervous as to how this all turns out, and how it reflects on Christians and Christ.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
I think this statement is what causes much confusion and disgruntlement, (if that's a word :) ) God doesn't really care how many games the Rockies win, he's more interested in our personal lives and character. He's not a Judge sitting up on a cloud waiting for us to screw up so he can put the hammer down, He's more of a Father that cares that we don't do things that cause hurt and grief to ourselves and those around us.
Winning a championship is no more related to personal beliefs than it is related to how much money you have, or how well educated you are. Lots of things can help you win a championship, but that's not what being a Christian is about. A few of the guys in the Rockies front office are young Christians, (Hurdle and Monfort only became Christians 3 years ago) and I'm not sure how long the others have been Christians, but they are young (in the Christian faith), and just like anything else, they have to learn and grow. Maybe 10 years down the road they will look back and say "Man, we sure were silly in our zeal". I suppose you could view a young Christian the same way you would view a high school graduate, or even a college grad. They often think "now I'm an adult, now I know stuff" and really, the rest of us know they don't know squat! As we get older, we realize WE don't know squat either. (The more you learn and know, the more you realize how little you know)
I sure appreciate what they are doing, and I truly hope the best for them and for the Rockies as a team, but as wamby said:
Then what about the losses? No hand of god there?
I hope I didn't preach too much, I just wanted to clarify some things about Christianity. Let me know if I did and I can edit my post. :)
Sweet Lou

[west coast orange and black]

elvis: A more accurate phrase would be, ..."assembling players in part based on character?"

what about: "assembling players in large part based on 'character'"?

[west coast orange and black]

sandlot: ...o'dDowd is perfectly aware that "character" is awfully close being a code word, and that's why the team's "nervous" about this.
uh-huh.

they know that if there were not something fundamentally disquieting about what they're doing, folks like us would not be discussing it.
exactly, sandlot.
as you posted, even a cursory check of the history of the coors family would leave one with the impression that this "character" business is no coincidence.

what rubs me the wrong way is that a baseball team -- ostensibly one interested in what the other 29 are after as well -- making an overt effort to ink personnel based largely on what they conclude is "character*".

have the yankees ever relied on such measures?

*character: code word

[west coast orange and black]

good-goin' with #91, lou.
many thanx.

[Sweet Lou]

good-goin' with #91, lou.
many thanx.
You are very welcome! :)

[Elvis]

elvis: A more accurate phrase would be, ..."assembling players in part based on character?"

what about: "assembling players in large part based on 'character'"?

Ha ha. Fair enough.

[Uptown Underdog]

Baseball's Rockies seek revival on two levels

By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY

DENVER — ...The only reading materials are daily newspapers, sports and car magazines and the Bible...Quotes from Scripture are posted in the weight room. Chapel service is packed on Sundays. Prayer and fellowship groups each Tuesday are well-attended. It's not unusual for the front office executives to pray together...they quietly have become an organization guided by Christianity.

Christians, and what they've endured, are some of the strongest people in baseball. I believe God sends signs, and we're seeing those.

"...None of us are perfect," O'Dowd says.

And (God's) using us in a powerful way."

I've recently heard Albert Pujols is a strong Christian.
http://www.bpsports.net/bpsports.asp?ID=4649

The Rockies sound like a tolerant group that mainly want to hire Christians, like Pujols, (but anyone else with quality character traits) because they care about on-field success.

[Captain Cold Nose]

God has inspired me numerous times through Christian men of character to be faithful to my wife, to be a better father to my children, and to be a Christ-like example to people around me.

I've recently heard Albert Pujols is a strong Christian.
http://www.bpsports.net/bpsports.asp?ID=4649

The Rockies sound like a tolerant group that mainly want to hire Christians, like Pujols, (but anyone else with quality character traits) because they care about on-field success.

I actually came to know Christ partly because of SS Greg Gagne MN Twins after the 1987 World Series victory. Greg told the media LIVE on the post game celebrations that although winning the WS is a great accomplishment, starting personal relationship with JESUS brings even greater joy!!! :dance
With all due respect, Uptown Underdog, this is not the place to proselytize.

[Captain Cold Nose]

That'd be fine if it wasn't also the place to put down (not by you but others)
That's why I'm not going to delete it, RMB. People are going to believe what they're going to believe, and this is not the place to push one's, nor bash someone else's, beliefs.
Unless it's baseball beliefs. Bash where need be.

[sandlot]

...O'Dowd and the Rockies still came forward and admitted to it and that takes guts in this day and age were one cannot even speak of faith, morality, and values in public without the fanatical secularists having a hissy fit. :o To try and keep this thread from wandering too far afield, let me focus on the two words in blue. No one in this thread -- not me, not anyone -- has accused the Rockies or the Coors family of being fanatical anything (though, I repeat, time spent researching the Coors' history would be time very well spent). And no one has said that supporting morality or faith was, in itself, in any way unacceptable. To the contrary, every post here has supported those principles. But when one supports faith in a society that promotes equality, does one faith have the right to precedence over others? Which one? When promoting morality, is there one code of morality that should get preferential consideration? Which one? If one wants to promote values, should one set of values get promoted to the detriment or exclusion of others? Which one? And when the name-calling starts, from which direction does it finally come? Sorry, HWR, with all respect to the spiritual tradition in which you and I have both been raised, it comes from the side that always thinks it is being fair and that it has the (god-given?) right to assert that fairness in the way it sees fit. Inadvertently, you eloquently make my point: The action of the Rockies' management bespeaks a blinkered notion of "character" and the sources from which it arises. We're talking basic human nature here. If something works for us, we think it's fair. If it works against us, we think it's unfair. If all our friends like something, we assume that's the way it's supposed to be. But there is a great big world of difference between believing (assuming) certain things and insitutionalizing those beliefs and assumptions. The Rockies' managers are not just exercising their individual right to believe, they are instutionalizing that belief, however nicely they want to dress it up. Ah, but I hear someone say, that's okay because they own the team. Well, property rights, though Constitutionally protected, do not take precedence over other rights that are equally guaranteed by the Constitution and by a number of international conventions to which our country is a signatory (and, often, instigator). In short, employment does not constitute servitude, not even in baseball, and that holds true despite exemptions to anti-trust laws that have been granted. It was precisely on that point -- employment vs servitude -- that the free agency struggle took place, and why Curt Flood is every ballplayer's angel.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

To try and keep this thread from wandering too far afield, let me focus on the two words in blue. No one in this thread -- not me, not anyone -- has accused the Rockies or the Coors family of being fanatical anything (though, I repeat, time spent researching the Coors' history would be time very well spent). And no one has said that supporting morality or faith was, in itself, in any way unacceptable. To the contrary, every post here has supported those principles. But when one supports faith in a society that promotes equality, does one faith have the right to precedence over others? Which one? When promoting morality, is there one code of morality that should get preferential consideration? Which one?
If one is to choose a "moral" system ons has to to choose one. In doing so, other moral systrems get disgarded. And this is bad because?


If one wants to promote values, should one set of values get promoted to the detriment or exclusion of others? Which one? And when the name-calling starts, from which direction does it finally come? Sorry, HWR, with all respect to the spiritual tradition in which you and I have both been raised, it comes from the side that always thinks it is being fair and that it has the (god-given?) right to assert that fairness in the way it sees fit.
So? And? You fail to realize that you are using your definition of "fairness".


Inadvertently, you eloquently make my point: The action of the Rockies' management bespeaks a blinkered notion of "character" and the sources from which it arises. We're talking basic human nature here. If something works for us, we think it's fair. If it works against us, we think it's unfair. If all our friends like something, we assume that's the way it's supposed to be. But there is a great big world of difference between believing (assuming) certain things and insitutionalizing those beliefs and assumptions.
What's wrong with institutionalizing a belief if that belief would add value to society or at least one thinks it adds value to society?


The Rockies' managers are not just exercising their individual right to believe, they are instutionalizing that belief, however nicely they want to dress it up. Ah, but I hear someone say, that's okay because they own the team. Well, property rights, though Constitutionally protected, do not take precedence over other rights that are equally guaranteed by the Constitution and by a number of international conventions to which our country is a signatory (and, often, instigator).
Specifically, what rights are you referring to? What rights are in conflict with each other?


In short, employment does not constitute servitude, not even in baseball, and that holds true despite exemptions to anti-trust laws that have been granted. It was precisely on that point -- employment vs servitude -- that the free agency struggle took place, and why Curt Flood is every ballplayer's angel.
I have no idea what you are talking? And Curt Flood didn't usher in free agency. That is one of baseball's great myths. Flood tried to remove the reserve clause through legal action arguing that the baseball reserve clause was unconstitutional. Well, the Supreme Court disagreed and reaffirmed that the baseball reserve clause was constitutional.

In the mid 1970s the players took a new approach. The reserve clause states that if after March 1st a player and a team cannot reach a contract agreement, the team has the right to sign that player to a one year contract. For decades every one assumed that this meant a team can sign the player to a one year contract year after year after year. The players argued that one year meant one year, meaning the team could only sign the player to a one year contract once. The players and owners went to an arbitrator. The arbitrator didn't rule the reserve class was unconstitutional (that would have been strange), he simply ruled in favor of the players' interpretation of the reserve clause. The owners knew they were beaten. So they opened their pocketbooks and the huge contracts started coming. Curt Flood had very little do with it.

[Brannu]

I'm wondering what would happen if a team decided that they were highly interested in recruiting Buddhist baseball players because living Zen opened them to fine tuning their awareness to the moment and you need that ability in baseball. What if they made it important for their players to do yoga and meditate before games?

Obviously, I think it's silly. Because if you are in the business of baseball then you know what matters most is winning. The fans aren't thinking that they want to go out and watch a good Christian baseball team or guys with good character ... they want to go see their favorite team win. You can be as Christian as you want, but, does it matter to the larger scope of the baseball world when you arrive in last place again? Jesus isn't hitting, pitching, fielding or coaching .... and their isn't enough faith in the world that will help you hit a 97mph fastball .... it takes skill. So, I think it would be highly more important for them to be more concerned with attracting the best talent available ... not just "good character".

[Elvis]

I'm wondering what would happen if a team decided that they were highly interested in recruiting Buddhist baseball players because living Zen opened them to fine tuning their awareness to the moment and you need that ability in baseball. What if they made it important for their players to do yoga and meditate before games?

Phil Jackson already started doing that many years ago with his teams. No one ever complained to my knowledge.

[RuthMayBond]

Phil Jackson already started doing that many years ago with his teams. No one ever complained to my knowledge.Hm, sounds like a double standard :rolleyes:

[Elvis]

Hm, sounds like a double standard :rolleyes:

Of course it is.

[sandlot]

I think HWR and I, like some other forumers, are just poles apart and unlikely to find much common ground. If some people feel that it's okay to institutionalize one set of values to the exclusion of other, equally moral and substantive values, and do not see that as being potentially prejudicial, supremacist or discriminatory, then there's not much one can say. If one cannot see that an individual's assertion of property rights at times conflicts with other legal rights, it's hard to see where the conversation can go. It would seem self-evident that if rights did not conflict, we would not need courts to settle competing claims. The great virtue of a democratic, secular state, it seems to me, is that it allows religious freedom, and that includes the right not to partake in religious exercise, or to have any religion at all. There is nothing fanatical about this. The Rockies are treading on sensitive ground and know it. End of story. PS. Flood took on the system and paid a price. Many owners in those days saw players as chattle. Yes, Flood's efforts did not solve the problem and, yes, other battles followed. But the essential point remains that he took up the challenge and pointed the way. Where would things be if he hadn't? Oh, Phil Jackson: I don't know what he did, but it should be pointed out that meditation is not necessarily a religious or spiritual exercise at all. And not all Buddhists meditate or even know how. BTW, I live in a society full of Buddhists. But meditation can be and is used for the purposes of concentration, relaxation, lowering blood pressure, promoting healing, encourgaing creativity, enhancing perfomance, etc. It's often a mental exercise, devoid of spiritual content. If Jackson used it this way, I can't see where any issue of double standards would arise.

[Elvis]

I think HWR and I, like some other forumers, are just poles apart and unlikely to find much common ground. If some people feel that it's okay to institutionalize one set of values to the exclusion of other, equally moral and substantive values, and do not see that as being potentially prejudicial, supremacist or discriminatory, then there's not much one can say. If one cannot see that an individual's assertion of property rights at times conflicts with other legal rights, it's hard to see where the conversation can go. It would seem self-evident that if rights did not conflict, we would not need courts to settle competing claims. The great virtue of a democratic, secular state, it seems to me, is that it allows religious freedom, and that includes the right not to partake in religious exercise, or to have any religion at all. There is nothing fanatical about this. The Rockies are treading on sensitive ground and know it. End of story. PS. Flood took on the system and paid a price. Many owners in those days saw players as chattle. Yes, Flood's efforts did not solve the problem and, yes, other battles followed. But the essential point remains that he took up the challenge and pointed the way. Where would things be if he hadn't? Oh, Phil Jackson: I don't know what he did, but it should be pointed out that meditation is not necessarily a religious or spiritual exercise at all. And not all Buddhists meditate or even know how. BTW, I live in a society full of Buddhists. But meditation can be and is used for the purposes of concentration, relaxation, lowering blood pressure, promoting healing, encourgaing creativity, enhancing perfomance, etc. It's often a mental exercise, devoid of spiritual content. If Jackson used it this way, I can't see where any issue of double standards would arise.

It's a double standard. If Phil was called the "Christ-master" and used biblical quotes, gifts and philosophies in teaching and coaching his players, there would be a significant backlash. Switch it to Buddhist quotes, gifts and philosophies and it's all kosher.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think HWR and I, like some other forumers, are just poles apart and unlikely to find much common ground.
Yes we can agree to disagree. Isn't America great? :D


If some people feel that it's okay to institutionalize one set of values to the exclusion of other, equally moral and substantive values, and do not see that as being potentially prejudicial, supremacist or discriminatory, then there's not much one can say.
A very nice strawman. We institutionalize many things in our society, not just "religion". High taxes, the Federal Reserve, secularism, gas prices, foolish wars, political correctness are just some things forced upon us without our consent. We've institutuionalized abortion without consent of the people, and now some are trying to institutionalize uthanasia and gay marriage against the will of the people. When does it stop?

The Rockies are simply a baseball team, not the U.S. Government. As I said before they are not forcing players to be Christians or even necessarily have Chrisitian "values" per se. The Rockies want players to have good character and so they have decided to focus on Christian players. That doesn't mean they wouldn't seek non-christian players. Many non-christians live exemplary lives and share the same lifestyles as christians.



If one cannot see that an individual's assertion of property rights at times conflicts with other legal rights, it's hard to see where the conversation can go. It would seem self-evident that if rights did not conflict, we would not need courts to settle competing claims. The great virtue of a democratic, secular state, it seems to me, is that it allows religious freedom, and that includes the right not to partake in religious exercise, or to have any religion at all.
Not all "secular" states allow religious or many other freedoms. I believe secularism is a step backwards for a society to take but I digress.


There is nothing fanatical about this. The Rockies are treading on sensitive ground and know it. End of story.
They do? I think they are senitive to how people will want to misrepresent their position to try to denigrade them. :o


PS. Flood took on the system and paid a price. Many owners in those days saw players as chattle. Yes, Flood's efforts did not solve the problem and, yes, other battles followed. But the essential point remains that he took up the challenge and pointed the way. Where would things be if he hadn't?

Flood wasn't the first player to take on the baseball establishment. He chose to do what he did and he knew the consequences. He had guts and I respect him for that.

[Brannu]

Phil Jackson already started doing that many years ago with his teams. No one ever complained to my knowledge.

I thought that what Phil Jackson did was utilizing Buddhist philosophies as a coaching tool, not an assumption of particular character that he wanted to have on his team.

Boy, The Rockies got 14 runs tonight ... away from Coors Field ... :)

[sandlot]

It's a double standard. If Phil was called the "Christ-master" and used biblical quotes, gifts and philosophies in teaching and coaching his players, there would be a significant backlash. Switch it to Buddhist quotes, gifts and philosophies and it's all kosher.To repeat, I do not know what Jackson did or did not do. Maybe you could edify us with some details? But meditation by itself is an exercise for the mind; it is neither a philosophy, nor a theology, nor a value set of any kind. It's a tool, period. So, for example, is pre-visualization, and this is used as part of some cancer treatments. If you want to use meditation for spirtual development, you can; if you want to use it to sink more free throws, you can. Sting thinks it helps sex. Maybe it would also help A-rod break out of his slump -- just to get this back to baseball. PS. I'm also perplexed at how employing Buddhism would make anything kosher. :)

[Elvis]

I thought that what Phil Jackson did was utilizing Buddhist philosophies as a coaching tool, not an assumption of particular character that he wanted to have on his team.

Yes, I wasn't implying that he did more than that.

[sandlot]

I thought that what Phil Jackson did was utilizing Buddhist philosophies as a coaching tool, not an assumption of particular character that he wanted to have on his team.As they would say in my parish church, Brannu: BINGO!

[sandlot]

It's a double standard. If Phil was called the "Christ-master" and used biblical quotes, gifts and philosophies in teaching and coaching his players, there would be a significant backlash. Switch it to Buddhist quotes, gifts and philosophies and it's all kosher.

Originally Posted by Brannu
I thought that what Phil Jackson did was utilizing Buddhist philosophies as a coaching tool, not an assumption of particular character that he wanted to have on his team.

Yes, I wasn't implying that he did more than that.

Careful, Elvis, whiplash can be very painful. ;)

[Captain Cold Nose]

It's a double standard. If Phil was called the "Christ-master" and used biblical quotes, gifts and philosophies in teaching and coaching his players, there would be a significant backlash. Switch it to Buddhist quotes, gifts and philosophies and it's all kosher.
I don't know if that was supposed to be funny or not, but considering Christians are supposed to be humble, at least in regards to Jesus, I find that thought hysterical.

[Elvis]

To repeat, I do not know what Jackson did or did not do. Maybe you could edify us with some details?

Details were already given: Jackson uses Buddhist teachings, tools and philosophies in his work as a coach. He has also been known to give his players books on the subject.

Are you looking for the names of the specific books or something? That I can't help you with.

Careful, Elvis, whiplash can be very painful.

Please enlighten me on what I changed my position on. :confused:

[NickG]

"Good character guys" aren't necessarily actually good character guys. Raffy Palmeiro, anyone?

[Captain Cold Nose]

"Good character guys" aren't necessarily actually good character guys. Raffy Palmeiro, anyone?
It's not so much the steroids but how quickly he was to point to Miguel Tejada that shows more about character to me. One misguided misstep isn't enough to disqualify someone, but throwing a teammate under the bus shows an entirely compromised soul.

[Brannu]

As they would say in my parish church, Brannu: BINGO!

Wouldn't you say that is different than advocating a particular character in your players? Hurdle is not using the philosophies of The Great Jewish Prophet as coaching tools. It appears to me that they are two very different things.

Hell (wrong word for this thread), they must be doing something right. 8-1 victory today. I think they've won 4 straight.

[sandlot]

Wouldn't you say that is different than advocating a particular character in your players? Hurdle is not using the philosophies of The Great Jewish Prophet as coaching tools. It appears to me that they are two very different things.

Hell (wrong word for this thread), they must be doing something right. 8-1 victory today. I think they've won 4 straight.Of course they are different things. We are talking about criteria for selection versus coaching,about people who are to be selected versus people who've already been selected. And we're talking about selection not simply upon good character -- no objection there -- but about selection based upon a definition of what constitutes good character that is overtly linked to a specific religious preference. The suggestion that good character is more likely to be found among Christians than among non-Christians is what some people find offensive. Secondly, there is a huge difference between Buddhist principles as a philosophy and Buddhism as a religion. For people who don't know much about Buddhism that might be a hard distinction to make. Perhaps it's helpful to know that a person can be a Buddhist and not believe in god. In Buddhism there is no notion of salvation, nor is there necessarily an afterlife as many religions would understand it. Buddhism is a philosophy based on examining the central question: What is the cause of suffering? It is a teaching based on practice, and it is non-exclusive. A person could adopt and employ many principles and practices of Buddhism and still be a Christian, Jew or whatever, and many people do. Where I live, millions of people happily mix Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, ancestor worship and indigenous animisms. Some of them have great character, some are shmucks, and in about the same proportions you'd find anywhere else.

[Elvis]

Did anyone else catch the Rockies owner infer that Coors Field is God's Stadium in the on-field presentation of the Warren Giles trophy tonight? I can't remember the exact quote, but he definitely said something along those lines.

Anybody record or remember the presentation and can give the exact quote and context? No biggie, and I don't have a problem with it, but I thought it was curious...although, not unexpected


...although, 21 out of 22?.....maybe he's right. :think: :p

And, I didn't know God was a Coors guy. I always assumed High Life.

Congrats to the Rockies

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/chris_ballard/10/16/rockies.clinch/Denver_fans.jpg

[RuthMayBond]

And although the Rockies don't "pitch" religion, what do those of you who were waiting for God to "do something" with the Rockies think now? :think:

[Sweet Lou]

And although the Rockies don't "pitch" religion, what do those of you who were waiting for God to "do something" with the Rockies think now? :think:I myself am a Christian, and one thing I've noticed during this run is that very few references have been made to "God" during interviews. I find that refreshing. I think it's so cliche to "Thank God" every time someone wins...it's much harder to thank Him when things aren't going your way.

While I do believe that a relationship with Jesus Christ will carry over into every aspect of your life, I also know, as much as it pains me to say it, that God doesn't really care who wins the World Series. He's much more interested in each of us individually. He didn't "do something" to make the Rockies win. He's not "up there" playing chess with us, giving special things to people who believe in Him, or playing favorites. He always has let us work things out ourselves. It's part of the free choice He gives us. He's given us rules to live by, and when we live by those rules, things usually go better for us. And His rules are pretty simple, really: Love others, do good to those that hate you, take care of those in need, feed the hungry, be faithful to your spouse, don't frustrate your children, honor your parents...When we do these things, life is just a lot easier for us. Not because we get punished when we do wrong, but because we reap the benefits of doing right. And when we do wrong, be quick to admit it, say sorry, and continue on. That's it, in a nutshell.


But if he was a Sports Fan He'd be a Baseball fan, no doubt about it. I wouldn't play Fantasy Baseball with Him, that's for sure. :laugh :laugh

Eric Clayton

[Walt Zink]

I've read just a few posts here, but I just wanted to toss in some thoughts on it.

Personally, I am an atheist. It's still a belief, like the many others. It just lacks deities. However, I think I would cringe if any organization took steps to exclude people due to one's skewed views of what the term "values" means. It differs even amongst those in the Christian faith, and we're human, so we're prone to err in judgement, even if the best intentions are at hand.

That said, I find it somewhat of a backtracking with such an approach. How each player feels, that's fine, but to state publicly that you are looking for certain traits in the people who will join your organization, that borders on some mild form of discrimination. The Rockies should be very careful when approaching this, and if they were to re-fit it by welcoming even those that didn't accept Jesus, yet were model citizens, that would certainly be welcome in my book. It's a tricky situation to work around, but it can be done.

[west coast orange and black]

today i read every post of this thread.
i gotta say, i am proud to be a b-f member!

carry on.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

today i read every post of this thread.
i gotta say, i am proud to be a b-f member!

carry on.

WCOB,

Can you give a short summary? I don't have the patience to read 124 posts. :happy:

[RuthMayBond]

Personally, I am an atheist. It's still a belief, I'm glad to hear you admit that last part

[Lefty32]

This was an annoying story, I hope it goes away now.

This whole "gods team" bs was kind of a turn-off.

[RuthMayBond]

This was an annoying story, I hope it goes away now. Nice of you to bring it up

<This whole "gods team" bs was kind of a turn-off.>

And they claimed this when?

[Lefty32]

I didn't "bring it up", this thread has been around for about five months now.

As for when it was claimed, well, comments like this, from Charlie Monfort, certianly point in that direction: "I think character-wise we're stronger than anyone in baseball. Christians, and what they've endured, are some of the strongest people in baseball. I believe God sends signs, and we're seeing those."

So he didn't say they were "god's team", but he did say that god was sending signs through his team, and as a baseball fan, comments like definitely turn me off. Doesn't exactly endear me to the Rockies organization.

[west coast orange and black]

wags: Many non-christians live exemplary lives and share the same lifestyles as christians.

and many christians do not lead exemplary lives. so, what's the point of the comment?

[west coast orange and black]

elvis: Did anyone else catch the Rockies owner infer [sic] that Coors Field is God's Stadium .... 21 out of 22? maybe he's right.

and the owner's god was busy doing just what, exactly, while the coloradans played boston?

[west coast orange and black]

lefty32: This whole "gods team" bs was kind of a turn-off.

rmb: And they claimed this when?

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," [Rockies general manager Dan] O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
-from the original usa today story

[Chi]

That said, I find it somewhat of a backtracking with such an approach. How each player feels, that's fine, but to state publicly that you are looking for certain traits in the people who will join your organization, that borders on some mild form of discrimination. The Rockies should be very careful when approaching this, and if they were to re-fit it by welcoming even those that didn't accept Jesus, yet were model citizens, that would certainly be welcome in my book. It's a tricky situation to work around, but it can be done.

Well then. You should look at what the brass was saying, since it sounds like it should be welcome in your book.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," [Rockies general manager Dan] O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
I am about as atheist as it gets, but when you believe God plans and designs everything for a reason, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to apply that to baseball games.

[Old Sweater]

This sorta explains why 2007 was suppose to be a bubble year for Hurdle and O'Dowd and 1 or 2 games into the season they were both signed to 2 year contract extensions.

[RuthMayBond]

lefty32: This whole "gods team" bs was kind of a turn-off.

rmb: And they claimed this when?

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," [Rockies general manager Dan] O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
-from the original usa today storyI don't think he equated that with being God's team

[sturg1dj]

to claim you are God's anything is just arrogant. Its fine if they are all religious people, more power to them. But if they think for one second that the belief will help them win games they are sadly mistaken.

if they are doing it because they believe it makes their lives better thats one thing; but for the people who hint that it may give them some sort of advantage I would say look at the World Series. in the grand scheme of life I doubt baseball is really that important. and if there is a God then I would think that sure he likes baseball, but he's probably not too involved in it.

[west coast orange and black]

rmb: And they claimed this when?

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," [Rockies general manager Dan] O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
-from the original usa today story

rmb: I don't think he equated that with being God's team

well, i do.

since according to o'dowd his god had a hand in the rockies winning, then it is reasonable that o'dowd believes that his god had a hand in the other teams losing.

it is therefore reasonable to conclude that o'dowd believes that his god has chosen his team.

[nolanryan5714]

I'm temporarily closing this thread, until the Current Events Mods and / or Admins can view it and make a final decision.

It's getting to the point of silly, petty arguing that has nothing to do with baseball. Therefore, it's not in line with our regulations (and adding the religious nature of this, it only doubles the reasoning).

[VTSoxFan]

Okay, after a bit of housecleaning, I've reopened the thread. Please keep this thread focussed on the topic at hand.

[digglahhh]

since according to o'dowd his god had a hand in the rockies winning, then it is reasonable that o'dowd believes that his god had a hand in the other teams losing.

it is therefore reasonable to conclude that o'dowd believes that his god has chosen his team.

I don't think that this is what O'dowd means. And, even though your conclusion is quite accurate in the practical, Ps and Qs logical sense, I think O'Dowd can probably believe what he believes, without believing your conclusion without there really being a contradiction.

In the spiritual sense, the amount of "blessings" God can offer are infinite. In the material sense, the fruits of such blessings are finite, and therefore (as per simple physics) all material manifestations of "blessings" come at the expense of another (for somebody to win, somebody must lose). That practical, conservation of energy type sense is the basis of your conclusion. If the Rockies' players are blessed with professional success at the hands of God, practically manifested, it must come at the expense of an opponent.

This is not to say that the Rockies are God's team, specifically, that they are not God's only team. A true Christian would believe that we are all God's people, hence all teams are God's teams. God may "bless" those who make up the Rockies' opponents in many other but equally important ways.

Spiritually speaking, even concluding that the Rockies were the chosen team is not the same as concluding that God was "rooting" for the Rockies.

I'm an atheist, so I'm liable to agree with your conclusion, WCOAB. But that is because we are playing by our set of rules, which stipulates that all success have to come at the expense of failures, meaning that for me to reward you with a finite-form reward, I am inherently depriving, or punishing another. In terms of Christian spirituality, I don't think the same would apply. Since the "blessings" are potentially infinite, there is no inherent victim of your success. Coming from that angle, there is no contradiction, it is not inherent in being chosen by God to be victorious that opponent has been deemed unworthy or inferior. This is probably easier to grasp if you view the teams simply as a collection of individuals, God's blessings are abstract and infinite, World Series titles are tangible and finite.

By projecting secular pragmatism onto the events we see it as such, though I believe that Hurdle, O'Dowd, etc. don't see it that way.