Hargrove in danger

[skeletor]

Will he make it thru the season, or will he finally get sent packing ?

maybe you could hire Buddy Bell as his replacement ?

all kidding aside....any ideas who the next M's skipper might be ?

[runningshoes]

Hey.

I thought you got hit a train. Where ya been?

[SABR Matt]

Dan Rohn...two time AAA MOTY and current "roving instructor" which is the code word for "the guy we want on staff to take over for Grover if his team flops again"

[papa~smurf]

Any chance we will see Gar or Bone?

[SABR Matt]

Buhner wants nothing to do with the Mariners right now (not that he isn't still a fan of the team, but he's enjoying his retirement a great deal and probably wouldn't enjoy the hostility in the front office.

Edgar should eventually be our hitting coach when he decided to take another run at baseball in a few years.

[Rennie Stennett]

If Hargrove is in danger of getting drop-kicked out of here, is it because you think this team is under achieving and that they are a playoff caliber team ?

I think this is a good team, perhaps a playoff team, but they need to develop. Pitching needs to come around and on some days the hitting just disappears. Consistency is not there yet.

I'm not in the locker room everyday, but I think they have good chemistry. They are lead by the jokester, Everyday Eddie. He keeps everyone loose. This is important because it is a long season.

If we do get rid off Hargrove, when do we do it ? End of the season ? Trading deadline, if we are still in it ? Now ?

[SABR Matt]

The PITCHING has not been our problem at ALL in Seattle...aside from a struggle from King Felix until recently.

Meche, Pineiro and to a lesser extent Moyer are all doing just fine thank you very much...and Washburn's been a bit inconsistent lately but overall solid. The pen has been (all things considered) LIGHTS OUT.

The problem is the hitting...and a HUGE CHUNK of that hitting problem is three people.

Richie Sexson and his .210 BA with no power
Adrian Beltre (although he's coming around right now)
Jeremy Reed

I don't expect ANY of those guys to continue struggling this badly let alone all of them.

And yes...we are badly...BADLY underperforming because Mike Hargrove is the worst manager in professional sports right now.

[Rennie Stennett]

The PITCHING has not been our problem at ALL in Seattle...aside from a struggle from King Felix until recently.

Meche, Pineiro and to a lesser extent Moyer are all doing just fine thank you very much...and Washburn's been a bit inconsistent lately but overall solid. The pen has been (all things considered) LIGHTS OUT.

The problem is the hitting...and a HUGE CHUNK of that hitting problem is three people.

Richie Sexson and his .210 BA with no power
Adrian Beltre (although he's coming around right now)
Jeremy Reed

I don't expect ANY of those guys to continue struggling this badly let alone all of them.



And yes...we are badly...BADLY underperforming because Mike Hargrove is the worst manager in professional sports right now.

The worst skipper in pro sports ? Them's strong words. Why is he so bad ? Is it because he doesn't get the most out of his players ? They don't play hard for him ? Why ?

I'll tell you what. Reed will never snap out of it and neither will Beltre. Big Ritchie has always hit. Reed struggled all of last year and is platooning this year. Beltre is in the lineup because of his paycheck. Is it Hargrove's fault that these guys are not hitting ? We can't bring back Sweet Lou. So who then do we hire ? It's so easy to blame the manager when the team plays bad. I have questioned a few moves by hargrove; one that gets me laughing is when he asked Lopez to sac bunt like three times the past week or so. sheesh. Your #1 RBI guy and HR guy bunting.

[SABR Matt]

Hargrove is a terrible manager because:

1) He runs into more unproductive baserunning outs than any manager in baseball.

2) He is badly misusing the bullpen with the exception of Putz.

3) He has shot down Bavasi's attempts to force him to use good young pitching prospects in the pen by refusing to use them

4) He's in a huge pissing contest with Bavasi over Roberto Petagine...REFUSING to use him at all for no apparent reason despite Petagine's great hitting track record in Japan and a number of AAA and short MLB stints.

5) He has barely touched Matt Lawton despite the fact that Reed isn't hitting.

6) His teams have consistently underperformed expectations since 1997 and that Cleveland team was a tidal wave of brilliant young players, not any particular skill on Grover's part.

7) He consistently chooses to play tried and tested veterens like Willie f'in Bloomquist and Carl Everett rather than allowing players that will actually be a part of our future to step into major league roles.

He's a horrific manager and everyone in baseball knows it except Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong.

[Rennie Stennett]

It's Hargrove's fault the guys can't run the bases ? They teach these things since day one in little league. He's badly misusing the pen ? A short time ago everything was great except for three hitters. I don't get it. Are we talking about putting rookie pitchers in the game with it on the line ? Sweet Lou loved veterans. Does that make him bad ? Why is the GM forcing anything ? It's Hargrove's club. It they don't like it, make a move. Petagine is a good hitter in triple A and in Japan. Yep. He's older than dirt too. Same with Lawton. As we know, Lawton spent the first ten days suspended for dope. Bloomquist is hitting like (.284) and has been CS once in like ten attempts. He's got more hustle in him then Petagine and Matt Lawton and Reed combined. So just throw this season away, even if we are just six games back, in early June and play young players instead of tried and tested veterens. Who is ready to step into ML roles, that are being blocked by veterans ? Stop shouting !


Hargrove is a terrible manager because:

1) He runs into more unproductive baserunning outs than any manager in baseball.

2) He is badly misusing the bullpen with the exception of Putz.

3) He has shot down Bavasi's attempts to force him to use good young pitching prospects in the pen by refusing to use them

4) He's in a huge pissing contest with Bavasi over Roberto Petagine...REFUSING to use him at all for no apparent reason despite Petagine's great hitting track record in Japan and a number of AAA and short MLB stints.


5) He has barely touched Matt Lawton despite the fact that Reed isn't hitting.

6) His teams have consistently underperformed expectations since 1997 and that Cleveland team was a tidal wave of brilliant young players, not any particular skill on Grover's part.

7) He consistently chooses to play tried and tested veterens like Willie f'in Bloomquist and Carl Everett rather than allowing players that will actually be a part of our future to step into major league roles.

He's a horrific manager and everyone in baseball knows it except Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong.

[SABR Matt]

ABSOLUTELY it's Hargrove's fault the guys are running into outs...he's the one TELLING THEM TO RUN TOO OFTEN...he should know what he has in the line-up and not ask Richie Sexson to steal a base (Sexson's been sent running 3 times this year!) or Johjima to score from 1st on a hard hit double (OK...that's more the third base coaches fault, but Grover picked the third base coach). A good manager knows how to get the most out of the running game...Hargrove does NOT...he just runs like an idiot and it kills rally after rally.

It's not Hargrove's team and that's the mistake the Mariners' front office is making...it's NOT THE MANAGER'S CLUB...IT'S THE GM'S CLUB. The manager's club is to steward the group of players the GM assembles to as many wins as possible...Hargrove doesn't own the club and he shuoldn't be dictating promotion strategy or player usage. Billy Beane knows this...that's why he only hires managers who buy his philosophy.

[Rennie Stennett]

ABSOLUTELY it's Hargrove's fault the guys are running into outs...he's the one TELLING THEM TO RUN TOO OFTEN...he should know what he has in the line-up and not ask Richie Sexson to steal a base (Sexson's been sent running 3 times this year!) or Johjima to score from 1st on a hard hit double (OK...that's more the third base coaches fault, but Grover picked the third base coach). A good manager knows how to get the most out of the running game...Hargrove does NOT...he just runs like an idiot and it kills rally after rally.

It's not Hargrove's team and that's the mistake the Mariners' front office is making...it's NOT THE MANAGER'S CLUB...IT'S THE GM'S CLUB. The manager's club is to steward the group of players the GM assembles to as many wins as possible...Hargrove doesn't own the club and he shuoldn't be dictating promotion strategy or player usage. Billy Beane knows this...that's why he only hires managers who buy his philosophy.

Again, quit shouting. For those of you college guys, this means, don't use capitals for complete sentences. Capitals are for guys that can't make a clear point or argument.

It's the manager's club. PERIOD !!!!!!! He is the only one who makes the line up card and decides who plays when.

For a guy who is a bad manager, Grover has the boys playing some good baseball. Oh yea, The GM gets credit for that...lol :radio

[wamby]

[QUOTE=Rennie Stennett]The worst skipper in pro sports ? Them's strong words. Why is he so bad ? Is it because he doesn't get the most out of his players ? They don't play hard for him ? Why ?

QUOTE]

After the 1995 season, the Indians rarely played hard for Hargrove (or Charlie Manuel for that matter). They had the 'we can kick it into high gear when we need to' mentality. I think the Indians postseason record form 1996 to 2001 shows what a bad aproach this is.

[Rennie Stennett]

[QUOTE=Rennie Stennett]The worst skipper in pro sports ? Them's strong words. Why is he so bad ? Is it because he doesn't get the most out of his players ? They don't play hard for him ? Why ?

QUOTE]

After the 1995 season, the Indians rarely played hard for Hargrove (or Charlie Manuel for that matter). They had the 'we can kick it into high gear when we need to' mentality. I think the Indians postseason record form 1996 to 2001 shows what a bad aproach this is.

I hope this is not the case here. IMO we have good chemistry here. There are no Joey Bells and Manny's here. At least not yet. Thanks for shedding some light on the subject.

[ichiro262]

Hargrove has made some good moves lately, but he has made a lot of bad moves over the last year and almost a half. I think he is a decent manager who could prosper with a roster like the ones playing in New York (but what decent manager couldn't?). We need a guy like Lou Piniella who always gets the most out of his players or they don't play. Period. Black and white. Hargrove rarely shows emotion and is almost never seen talking to his players -- two things Piniella always did. And it worked!! I think unless the team finishes second or a close third (at or near .500) this season he is gone.
If we can't bring back Lou, what do you guys think about Dusty Baker? He's a west coast guy who gets into the game, and there's a pretty good chance he will be available after this season. He took San Fran to the WS and he was a curse away from getting to another with Chicago. It's also hard to say that he doesn't get good production out of his players because -- with the exception of Juan Pierre and Aramis Ramirez -- the Cubs are terrible!! They are nothing without their pitching and a ridiculous performance from D-Lee. Anyway, do you guys think it could be a good idea to bring him to Seattle?

[wamby]

[QUOTE=wamby]

I hope this is not the case here. IMO we have good chemistry here. There are no Joey Bells and Manny's here. At least not yet. Thanks for shedding some light on the subject.

Albert Belle left the Indians after the 1996 season, so he doesn't really factor into this. Albert Belle always struck me as the kind of guy who would play hard no matter what.
When I think of that era of the Indians, I think more of guys like David Justice, Kenny Lofton (after he returned from the Braves especially) and Roberto Alomar.

[Rennie Stennett]

:dance Thanks for the refresher course. "I remember Little O" from that club and that the M's were up 2-1 against the Tribe in the ALCS, with the great pitching of Medford Bob Walcott and big hitting by Mr. Clutch, Luis Sojo. As we know, the M's ran out of gas after that and lost the ALCS. Little O turned out to be a pretty good ballplayer.

Some have mentioned that Hargrove does not have big highs and lows. he doesn't seem to communicate with his players. He has to be what he is and not try to be like Sweet Lou. There is only one Lou and he's not coming back. Grover seems to hold the stress inside. I would hate to be around when he explodes.