Top 10 Pre-1900 Pitchers:

[Bill Burgess]

Anyone have the chutzpah to give a Top 10 Pre-1900 Pitchers?

Since Pre-1900/Negro Leagues continue to be weak areas for most of us, especially me, it might take some nerve to presume to rank 10 of their pitchers. But still, this is one list we haven't tackled, and might be fun. Who knows, we could have fun! Let's try? Give it a shot?

I provided a little form chart to get the ball rolling.

Pitchers:

Pre - 1900:
Tim Keefe, John "Monte" Ward, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Mickey Welch, Sadie McMahon, Jim McCormick, Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne, Amos Rusie, Jim Whitney, Larry Corcoran, Clark Griffith, Al Spalding, Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Charlie Ferguson, Tony Mullane, Silver King, Bobby Mathews, Tommy Bond, Jim Creighton, Gus Weyhing, Jack Stivetts, Will White, Ted Breitenstein, Adonis Terry, Will White, Charlie Buffington, Bill Hutchison, Guy Hecker, Terry Larkin, George Bradley, Fred Goldsmith, Ed Morris, Dave Foutz, Toad Ramsey, Jim Devlin, Matt Kilroy, Ben Sanders, Elton Chamberlain, Candy Cummings.

[Bill Burgess]

Just to prove I have more guts than brains, I'll go first. Here's my tentative Top 10.

My Top 10 Pre-1900 Pitchers:

1. Amos Rusie
2. Kid Nichols
3. Cy Young
4. Charlie Radbourne
5. John Clarkson
6. Tim Keefe
7. Jim Galvin
8. Mickey Welch
9. John 'Monte' Ward
10. Ted Breitenstein

[Baseball Guru]

Bob Caruthers
Amos Rusie
Kid Nichols
Cy Young
Al Spalding
Charlie Radbourne
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Jim Galvin
Mickey Welch
John Ward

[dgarza]

Something along these lines:

1. Kid Nichols
2. Tim Keefe
3. John Clarkson
4. Al Spalding
5. Cy Young - not quite sure what to do with him
6. Charley Radbourn
7. Jim McCormick
8. Amos Rusie
9. Mickey Welch
10. Pud Galvin
------------------
11. Bobby Matthews

[Buzzaldrin]

Mickey Welch has no place on this list, and Candy Cummings and Scissors Foutz HAVE to be there.

But, are we counting best for a while, or best for career? Guy Hecker had some seasons, but no career. Thing is, it's tricky for career- you take a guy like Silver King; he was the king of the world till he lost his arm. He was 23 when that happened, had four good years. How different is that from a Galvin, really?

My list:

John Clarkson (head and shoulders above the rest)
Bob Caruthers
Kid Nichols
Candy Cummings
Amos Rusie
Hoss Radbourn
Tim Keefe
Al Spalding
Pud Galvin
Scissors Foutz

HM: Bobby Matthews

[HDH]

Kid Nichols
Tim Keefe
Pud Galvin
Cy Young
Amos Rusie
Mickey Welch
Charley Radbourne
John Clarkson
Bobby Mathews
Clark Griffith

[yest]

in no paticular order
Tim Keefe
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Pud Galvin
Mickey Welch
Old Hoss Radbourne
Amos Rusie
Al Spalding
Cy Young
Kid Nichols

[Baseball Guru]

Mickey Welch has no place on this list, and Candy Cummings and Scissors Foutz HAVE to be there.



Please explain? Cummings had a 120 era + and pitched in 242 games in his career, giving up over 2500 hits while pitching about 2150 innings...

Welch pitched in over double the games, gave up 4587 hits to 4802 IP, his era + was 113 and he won over 300 games...

I think Foutz is more deserving than Cummings, but I think saying that they should both be on the list and that Welch has no place on this list is a bit of a stretch...

I'm not saying you are wrong, just interested in your thinking...

[christian gentleman]

wasn't candy the inventor of the curve ball? and quite good at it too?

[Baseball Guru]

wasn't candy the inventor of the curve ball? and quite good at it too?

Yes he was good at it but there is debate on whether or not he is the actual iventor of the pitch.. He has the greatest backing because he came out with his own article: "How I Pitched The First Curve" in 1908 plus he had the support of Henry Chadwick, at the time, a very respected baseball writer...

Fred Goldsmith is another pitcher that has recieved a lot of support for inventing the curveball.. Apparently he actually is credited for making the first public demonstration of a curve back in 1870..

[Wee Willie]

Fred Goldsmith is another pitcher that has recieved a lot of support for inventing the curveball.. Apparently he actually is credited for making the first public demonstration of a curve back in 1870..
Fred Goldsmith was only 14 years old in 1870. I doubt it was him.

[Baseball Guru]

Fred Goldsmith was only 14 years old in 1870. I doubt it was him.

Not necessarily...

He was not a major league ballplayer, but a sandlotter of the time he demonstrated the pitch according to accounts....

[Buzzaldrin]

Here's my defense, Guru:

Welch was NOT great pitcher, he was merely very good, but nowhere near the level of a Clarkson or Rusie. Welch never led the league in wins, k's, ERA, innings pitched, complete games- nothing (well, three times in walks allowed and once in earned runs given up, but I meant nothing positive). He just happened to slog along in enough seasons without getting injured or sidetracked to top 300, something which Mathews and Mullane failed to do. That in itself does not make you one of the best pitchers of your era. Welch seems to me to be a lot like a Don Sutton or Milt Pappas, a quality pitcher you could count on year in and year out, but he was no Radbourn or Caruthers. Tony Mullane, Jim McCormick, Will White, Silver King- guys like that were all better pitchers than Welch, and If Mullane hadn't missed all of one season and parts of two others, he would've easily cleared 300 wins (possibly as high as 350) and we'd be arguing about him instead. Mathews gets screwed by missing 300 as well, and even worse- he won 297 games, but played several seasons in leagues that were unsanctioned as major leagues, silly really, because they were no worse than the UA or NA, and probably as good as the early seasons of the AA, so he's uncredited for well over 30 more wins.

I started writing about Cummings but changed my mind- if you want an alright bio of him and what he did and how well he did it, here's one from SABR:

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1276&pid=3130

As to Scissors- he was, like Hecker and Caruthers, a hell of a hitting pitcher. Before his arm went, well, let's say that if you can win 40 games and hit over .280 in the same season (and .357 next one), you're pretty good. Foutz has one of the highest winning percentages of all time, but I'm not gonna argue his case here, because I've realized that his throwing career was really too short to qualify for the list of best pre 1900 pitchers, so I'm gonna remove him from my list, and move Mathews up from honorable mention. I guess my new HMs are Nig Cuppy and Larry Corcoran.

[KCGHOST]

Kid Nichols
Cy Young
John Clarkson
Amos Rusie
Tim Keefe
Jack Stivetts
Old Hoss Radbourn
Silver King
Tony Mullane
Clark Griffith

[Buzzaldrin]

People always forget Stivetts, a real unsung hero and another of the alltime great hitting pitchers. I still wouldn't put him in my top ten from the era, but I'll always have a soft spot for him, along with oh, say Sadie McMahon and also a host of what might have been early 20s burnouts like the Icebox and the one season wonders like the Detroit Lady. A great era for crushed futures, wasn't it?