Bingo DeMoss/Judy Johnson: Negro L. 1st/2nd Tier?

[Bill Burgess]

I always saw Bingo DeMoss listed as the best Negro L. 2Bman.
I always saw Judy Johnson listed as the best Negro L. 3Bman.

Some said Oliver Marcelle out-ranked Julian 'Judy' Johnson at 3B.

Question: Are DeMoss/Johnson still considered 1st Tier Negro League players? Or should we now reconsider them as 2nd Tier Negro Leaguers, due to their weak hitting. Or maybe even 3rd Tier Negro Leaguers? As some have suggested.

Any suggestions?

Bill Burgess

[Mischa]

I always saw Bingo DeMoss listed as the best Negro L. 2Bman.
I always saw Judy Johnson listed as the best Negro L. 3Bman.

Some said Oliver Marcelle out-ranked Julian 'Judy' Johnson at 3B.

Question: Are DeMoss/Johnson now considered 1st or 2nd Tier Negro League players?

Any suggestions?

Bill Burgess

The statistical evidence shows that DeMoss was the Pokey Reese of his era - all glove and small ball skills, no contact or power. And I don't know who "always listed him" #1 - I've often seen Newt Allen, Sammy T. Hughes, Bill Monroe and others presented in that role, which is very much open for picks.

Johnson's reputation has also taken a blow after some research was done, which showed him to be behind guys like Jud Wilson, Dandridge and Marcelle with the bat - and the latter two had impressive defensive reputations as well.

[leecemark]

--I'd like a third tier option. Good glove, no bat doesn't get a player very far with me.

[Bill Burgess]

--I'd like a third tier option. Good glove, no bat doesn't get a player very far with me.
Good Grief, Mark! This is the Negro Leagues. Just how many tiers do you need?! Would 4 do for you?

Bill

[jalbright]

Bill,

I'm rather with mark on this one, because second tier to me at least implies I think the guy was pretty good but not top notch. Based on what I know now, I have trouble seeing any one of these three as much above the level of an average MLBer of their day, if that. They all had nice gloves, but to my mind, they all carried rather small sticks at the plate.

Jim Albright

[538280]

I'm with Mark and Jim here. I couldn't really see DeMoss or Johnson being much more than an average player in MLB. 2nd tier would be way too high IMO. Even in the Negro Leagues, 3rd or 4th tier would be good.

I have always considered Marcelle to be a certain step above Johnson, a better hitter with more power and a slightly better BA. That's always been my impression. I could call him a 2nd tier player.

[jalbright]

The biggest demerit to Marcelle, beyond a less than overwhelming bat is that he had a relatively short career of 13 seasons (in the Negro Leagues, that's quite short, though allegedly he couldn't deal with being seen and teased about his nose after it was bitten off in a fight). If he'd had the longer career, I might agree with you about him, Chris.

Jim Albright

[Bill Burgess]

I added 2 more options to the poll. 3rd/4th Tiers.

4th Tier Negro Leaguers? Wouldn't they be bench-warmers?