What is PCR?

[STM4UA]

Thanks in advance.

[chesspirate]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44357

look around a bit.

[fungo22]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44357

look around a bit.To give you a little guidance as you look around, I would like to qualify/amend some things brought out in the thread ChessPirate referred you to. Today is the first time I read it.

Posture - Connection - Rotation

It's simply a new buzzword/term for what good hitters have done for about 100 years and it used to be called "keep your head down, keep your hands back and elbow up, and rotate your body, hips first" This does not come very close to capturing PCR, so don't let it mislead you.

Posture - means to tilt your spine so that when the bat is swung, it swings to the ball, perpendicular to your spine. The old-school saying is; "keep your head down" or "crouch" or "squat" or "bend at the waist and knees" This captures part of what "posture" achieves. But posture includes a stretch loading of muscles in and about the pelvic area, especially in the lower part of the "posterior chain." Upper body posture also includes eventually setting the "box" or front arm at an angle that is close to perpendicular to the spine.

Connection - means to maintain the arm/hand/elbow angles as the shoulders rotate, and to keep the hands near their original location relative to the back shoulder as you rotate. A "box" is formed with the 4 corners being the front shoulder, front elbow, the hands, and the back shoulder. You maintain those "4 "connection" points as you rotate the box by turning the hips and shoulders. Disconnection is to push the bat at the ball and/or change the angles of the corners of the box as it rotates. The old-school saying is; "keep your hands back and keep your elbow up." The "old-school saying" does not cover the concept of connection even by giving it the broadest possible interpretation. Connection can be maintained with the back elbow down. Connection can be broken even if the hands are kept back. Part of connection involves keeping the hands not only behind the rear shoulder, but also maintaining an elevation approximate to the rear shoulder.

Mark's brief definition in the original thread captures the intent of the term "connection."

Rotation - simply means to use the body to rotate the box. The bat is connected to the body and you stay connected as you rotate. The old school saying is; "step and turn and use your hips first." I was a teacher of the "old school saying" for many years even as I read PCR material in its early forms. My "old school" filter (in part) prevented me from really understanding what "rotation" meant in the PCR context. I'm not sure whether this is also Jim's problem. However, rotation according to the PCR understanding is rotation from the middle or by loading and unloading the muscles in and about the pelvic region. "Hips first" doesn't capture it and it can be accomplished whether you "step" or not. My sons both stepped and turned with their hips first for 5 years before they learned to rotate from the middle. It is different.

You'll find a lot of new terms used here, and they are simply synonyms for the technique that has been used since the days of "The Babe." Just a new and probably better way to describe how to swing the most effective way. I agree that they are terms which more accurately describe what good hitters have done for years. I don't see them as synonomous (for the most part) with the terms that have been used over the years. They reflect a better understanding of what high-level hitters are actually doing with their bodies when they swing a bat than the traditional terms.

[jbooth]

I was a teacher of the "old school saying" for many years even as I read PCR material in its early forms. My "old school" filter (in part) prevented me from really understanding what "rotation" meant in the PCR context. I'm not sure whether this is also Jim's problem. However, rotation according to the PCR understanding is rotation from the middle or by loading and unloading the muscles in and about the pelvic region. "Hips first" doesn't capture it and it can be accomplished whether you "step" or not. My sons both stepped and turned with their hips first for 5 years before they learned to rotate from the middle. It is different.

I was trying to give a brief overview, not get into all the details. And, my point was mainly to point out that PCR isn't a new way to swing, it's just a new way to describe the swing, and teach it.

Regarding "move the middle". A hitter's pelvic bone must move to get his belly button facing the pitcher. How an individual figures out how to do that is up to him. Your description of, and insistence that "moving from the middle" is the holy grail, is not the answer for everyone. There are a lot of muscles involved in getting the belly button moved to face the pitcher, and THAT, is WHAT needs to be accomplished. It's been my experience with many students, that you have to make it clear WHAT they need to do, then they have to figure out HOW, with your watching and adjusting until they get it. The "feeling" and/or concious thought or cue, can be different from student to student, and there are many different cues you can use to get the hips turned correctly. "Move the middle" is not the only one, nor IMO, even close to the best one.

The PCR/Nyman crowd may have more accurate descriptions of swing parts, but that doesn't mean using those terms is the most effective way to teach.

BTW, in the year and half that has passed since I first met you on H-M.org, I HAVE learned a lot of stuff, and IMO, I understand this stuff better now than Nyman, and most of his followers. You don't have to agree, and I don't care. My students are having great success learning from me.

I'm not slamming you, I'm just a bit tired of your insinuations that I still have a lot to learn to get to the Nyman crowd's level. Everyone continues to learn, and I don't think I know it all, but I think I'm well farther along than you think I am.

[GFK]

...It's been my experience with many students, that you have to make it clear WHAT they need to do, then they have to figure out HOW, with your watching and adjusting until they get it. The "feeling" and/or concious thought or cue, can be different from student to student, and there are many different cues you can use to get the hips turned correctly....

jbooth, this has been my experience with my three boys.

No One Can Teach Me Anything – Arrogant Attitude
Someone Can Teach Me Everything – Naïve Attitude
Everyone Can Teach Me Something – Teachable Attitude

[fungo22]

I was trying to give a brief overview, not get into all the details. And, my point was mainly to point out that PCR isn't a new way to swing, it's just a new way to describe the swing, and teach it. I agree with this part of your point.

Regarding "move the middle". A hitter's pelvic bone must move to get his belly button facing the pitcher. How an individual figures out how to do that is up to him. Your description of, and insistence that "moving from the middle" is the holy grail, is not the answer for everyone. There are a lot of muscles involved in getting the belly button moved to face the pitcher, and THAT, is WHAT needs to be accomplished. It's been my experience with many students, that you have to make it clear WHAT they need to do, then they have to figure out HOW, with your watching and adjusting until they get it. The "feeling" and/or concious thought or cue, can be different from student to student, and there are many different cues you can use to get the hips turned correctly. "Move the middle" is not the only one, nor IMO, even close to the best one. Two issues being discussed: (1) how rotation ("belly button facing the pitcher") is most effeciently/powerfully accomplished and (2) what cue will best help a hitter accomplish this movement.

First, I agree that whatever cue gets them there is a good one. However, in terms of describing how it is accomplished (i.e., what muscle action is taking place), I rather think that "rotating from the middle" is the holy grail. Describing what is actually going on (the muscle action reality) on one hand, and the cue to to develop that muscle action on the other hand, are two separate issues. I'm pragmatic on the cue issue, but the muscle action issue is not a matter of personal preference. As I remember, you were having trouble making this happen in your own swing and distinguishing the difference (both in practice and in video analysis) between rotating from the middle and whatever it was you were doing in your swing.

The PCR/Nyman crowd may have more accurate descriptions of swing parts, but that doesn't mean using those terms is the most effective way to teach. Once again, I agree with this.

BTW, in the year and half that has passed since I first met you on H-M.org, I HAVE learned a lot of stuff, and IMO, I understand this stuff better now than Nyman, and most of his followers. You don't have to agree, and I don't care. Your apathy toward our assessment of your understanding is only surpassed by mine toward your assessment of your understanding. But since you don't care, I might be so bold as to express some skepticism. But I could be wrong.

I'm not slamming you, I'm just a bit tired of your insinuations that I still have a lot to learn to get to the Nyman crowd's level. Everyone continues to learn, and I don't think I know it all, but I think I'm well farther along than you think I am. I now understand your position: You understand more than Paul and most of us. I, on the other, hand don't know how much you have to learn. I only know what I've read. And of course, I've failed to get your point.


My students are having great success learning from me. Post clips.

[Ohfor]

...and IMO, I understand this stuff better now than Nyman, and most of his followers...

There you have it Ursa.

He is "self appointed".

Even though he can't recognize swinging from ones center yet.

Even though he has no clue what "move the middle" means.

Even though he can't recognize why on every pitch shown HG starts his swing the same way which leads to disconnection on every swing. No matter the location or speed.

And, even though he can type a good game and ignore almost everything he types, rather than help his good friend.

Something is wrong at launch and he can't see it.

Yet.............Jim knows............just ask him.

[Ohfor]

... but I think I'm well farther along than you think I am.

Can we see those clips of you rotating while leaning on the wall again?:D

[hiddengem]

Even though he can't recognize why on every pitch shown HG starts his swing the same way which leads to disconnection on every swing. No matter the location or speed.


What would be some reasons that I would be a better hitter, than a person with a picture perfect swing?

[Ohfor]

I believe I just answered this in your thread. At least gave some ideas about it.

I think it's in the same ball park as to why one high school player with ugly throwing mechanics can throw 90 while another high school kid with perfect mechanics can't go beyond 85.

[ssarge]

What would be some reasons that I would be a better hitter, than a person with a picture perfect swing?

Great athletecism can compensate for a lot.

Most of us work w/ kids who AREN'T gifted with great athletecism, and mechanics consequentely become extremely important. Mechanics and hard work can narrow the "giftedness" gap some.

Ideally, the hitter is hugely gifted, has impecable mechanics, and works his butt off. Those are the folks at the top of the pyramid. But you can get close with just the later two, IMO.

Regards,

Scott

[jbooth]

There you have it Ursa.

He is "self appointed".

The manner in which you respond to everyone certainly gives the impression that YOU believe you are the top dog, even though you haven't said it.

Even though he can't recognize swinging from ones center yet.
Sure I can, I just don't evaluate it as a swing component the same as you.

Even though he has no clue what "move the middle" means.
I sure do and I can teach it too.

Even though he can't recognize why on every pitch shown HG starts his swing the same way which leads to disconnection on every swing. No matter the location or speed.

I see what you see, I just don't see it as a big a problem as you.

Something is wrong at launch and he can't see it.

You think it is a problem because you only view swings from one perspective. Not from the knowledge of how the physics works. His launch is different from what you believe is correct, but it still works. He hit THREE balls out of the park on three DIFFERENT types of pitches.

Yet.............Jim knows............just ask him.

Yep, alot of people do ask. I get quite a few private emails asking my opinion, and I've picked up new students from people liking what they saw me post here. How many people are running to you?

[joof]

What is most interesting to me is that the phrase “move the middle” is repeatedly used in these swing discussions but I have yet to see a clear delineation of teaching points that can serve as the basis for teaching kids how to correctly “move the middle”. For comparative purposes I would certainly like to see some ideas on how this “movement of the middle” is taught.

Thanks, joof

[tom.guerry]

Jim said:

"The PCR/Nyman crowd may have more accurate descriptions of swing parts, but that doesn't mean using those terms is the most effective way to teach."

I would agree as far as that goes, but the terms are also inextricably tied into an overall implied swing model which is sometimes more and sometimes less acknowledged as in fungo's statement:

'However, rotation according to the PCR understanding is rotation from the middle or by loading and unloading the muscles in and about the pelvic region"

My opinion is that neither the parts or the whole model are adequately reflective of the mlb swing.

As a result, the cues and teaching that rely on this terminology will lead to a different and incompatible destination ("spinhook") unless their interpretation is almost entirely divorced from the underlying implicit/model.

[Mark H]

Yep, alot of people do ask. I get quite a few private emails asking my opinion, and I've picked up new students from people liking what they saw me post here. How many people are running to you?

I would have no hesitation sending someone in your area to you. Doesn't mean I think you are Steve but I think you likely produce good results and I think you understand a high level swing better than 99% of the instructors out there taking money for this. Maybe you are right in thinking you have passed everyone, but remember, you thought you had it nailed the first time we participated in a thread and by your own words it seems you have learned much since then. Enough that you think you have passed everyone. You are an interesting fellow. I've never known anyone with the ego and bristly personality you display to demonstrate the capacity for learning and change you have shown. So I'm ok with the ego and I have no doubt it will not hamper you from continued learning. Your self confidence is backed by substance and practical application. I look forward to watching the rest of your learning journey.

Kudos to the Ohfors of the world for keeping the rest of us from getting comfortable. Would that we had a few such in Congress.

[Ifubuildit]

As an instructor and coach I have never measured success in the number of students or parents that came running to me for assistance. I have had my fair share of players and students.

Its always been the quality of the content I teach that is the focus and paramount to a players success over the long run. How that content is communicated by me and understood by the player (and in some cases the parent) is more important to me than any other aspect of swing instruction.

We can talk the talk all day long on here. In the context of teaching where do you stand, and is it sound in principle?

Last I checked none of us were named hitting messiah of the year for 2006.

Although we are all in the running.

As for the congress remark. Now thats funny.

Elliott

[Steve Englishbey]

In reply to the self-proclaimed "expert of the experts" ,I will quote Dougmac on Shawns website:

"Tom I've never mistaken you for someone who actually knows anything about hitting " and "Only about 20% of what you say makes any sense."


And JJa recently told our resident "doctor of hitting" that he might not have a very good idea as to what I teach.

I will be in northern Ca. for about 8 days [this week and next] . I have little interest in whether the self-proclaimed expert of the expert " comes or not.
What I do know is that I will use him as an example of someone who has very little understanding of what 'Posture ,Connection ,Rotation" actually means in terms of analyzing elite hitters or as a method by which to develop young hitters.And as an example who does not much understand the actual physiology and biomechanics of the swing process.And as an example of someone who does not much understand what ,why and how I teach.

There is no one on these websites who displays Twain's dictum of "I never let facts get in the way of my opinion" more than the self-proclaimed "expert of the experts."

There is essentially no one who more "perverts " hitting material more than our self-proclaimed "expert of the experts" ,ie almost everything he "interprets" amounts to misinterpretations ,misunderstandings, misinformation of not just my info but ALL information from all sources as regards hitting theory and instruction.

Like Dougmac says : He gets about 20% right.


steve

[LClifton]

As a result, the cues and teaching that rely on this terminology will lead to a different and incompatible destination
And those cues would be?
C'mon Tom, I know I've stopped asking about your working with hitters.
But to profess that you know the cues associated with anyone's teaching is far fetched.
will lead to a different and incompatible destination ("spinhook") unless their interpretation is almost entirely divorced from the underlying implicit/model.
Or, it could be, and very likely is, that your interpretation of the "model" is skewed, tainted, or just flat out wrong.
Spinhook----That's cute, is this the first time you've posted that? ;)

[DunninLA]

PCR is hard to explain in words. For example, Rotation is a funny thing. It is hard to explain when something that looks like rotation is actually spinning.

SteveE worked with my girls last Saturday for 2.5 hours. Only the surface was scratched. It is not unlike gymnastics... you guys know what a KIP is? Its a simple move to pull yourself on top of the bar. Once you do it, it's a breeze. But I've seen people quit gymnastics cuz they couldn't get their kip after trying for more than a year after reaching Level 5.

Properly rotating involves lots of muscles, from the inner thighs up through both sides of the torso. Improper rotation is just spinning off lots of energy into nothing. Properly rotating cannot be taught verbally, and it can only be approximated with visual examples... but the drills SteveE has on the DVDs help a person learn to feel the proper rotation.

Take Posture. There is a subtle difference between tilting forward with a very slight knee bend, and ruining the tilt with too much knee bend. Different muscles are engaged in the two. You have to feel it... hard to teach with a DVD or verbally.

Take Connection. So many subtleties. SteveE has a "Hank Aaron Whip Hook" drill. This involves tracking the rear elbow in a line toward the contact zone with the elbow pointed straight down. As the torso rotation approaches facing to the pitcher, the centrifugal forces of the rotation (with the rear elbow properly positioned and the box intact) whips the bat head through the contact zone with astounding speed. I can't explain it, but seeing it in person is eye opening. I can see Bonds doing it too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is almost impossible to explain PCR in written format... it has to be shown, and experimented with, to feel what it means.

[wogdoggy]

Take Connection. So many subtleties. SteveE has a "Hank Aaron Whip Hook" drill. This involves tracking the rear elbow in a line toward the contact zone with the elbow pointed straight down. As the torso rotation approaches facing to the pitcher, the centrifugal forces of the rotation (with the rear elbow properly positioned and the box intact) whips the bat head through the contact zone with astounding speed. I can't explain it, but seeing it in person is eye opening. I can see Bonds doing it too.



is that the one where he uses the dumbell weight on the top hand?

[DunninLA]

removed to fix

[DunninLA]

Wogdoggy,

No weight involved in the drill we did. He demonstrating how much force is generated by simply holding the bat with just the top hand, resting the bat on on the shoulder, and rotating with power through a normal swing while keeping the elbow pointed downward and tracking in a straight line to the ball.

After a few slo-mo swings like this, he had them do this but with both hands. It's not an exact game swing, but it demonstrates a relationship between real elbow tracking and the bat whipping around really fast into the contact zone following the rotation.

[Mark H]

What is most interesting to me is that the phrase “move the middle” is repeatedly used in these swing discussions but I have yet to see a clear delineation of teaching points that can serve as the basis for teaching kids how to correctly “move the middle”. For comparative purposes I would certainly like to see some ideas on how this “movement of the middle” is taught.

Thanks, joof

Getting hold of Dixon's book is your best bet on learning about "moving the middle". He started selling it again due to demand. I'm sure someone can give you a link.

[joof]

Mark ---

Thanks for the response. I do have Dixon's book and was seeking to learn of drills that others to use to teach and reinforce the proper use of the middle. Working together, daves and I have developed some ideas on the on the topic subject but thought having others thoughts and ideas would help for comparitive purposes.

joof