Recent swings

[hiddengem]

Here are some Recent swings from the past few weeks. Thought I'd put them up here so Tom could tell us how bad they are.:D

Here are a couple of HR's from the same night.
Change Up
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[url=http://picsplace.to/] (http://picsplace.to/)

[hiddengem]

Here is a Home Run that traveled about 410 to left center. This guy is a great hitter with a ton of power to all fields.

[Comm]

Here are some Recent swings from the past few weeks. Thought I'd put them up here so Tom could tell us how bad they are.:D

Here are a couple of HR's from the same night.
Change Up
[/url]
Slider, Middle/down
[url=http://picsplace.to/] (http://picsplace.to/)

I see good rotation, however, it breaks down...... It also seems that his arms are pushing at the ball into a V. It could just be that he was fooled by a pitch.

[Comm]

Here is a Home Run that traveled about 410 to left center. This guy is a great hitter with a ton of power to all fields.



Awesome rotation, keeping behind the ball and rotating around an axis.

[jbooth]

I see good rotation, however, it breaks down...... It also seems that his arms are pushing at the ball into a V. It could just be that he was fooled by a pitch.

Yeah right. He got fooled and hit it out of the park. Geez!

He's not pushing the bat. His front arm extended because the pitch was low. The extension was very late. The angular momentum was already generated by his excellent act of keeping the hands near his back shoulder and the 90 degree bat/forearm angle for a long time before he extended the forearm into the ball. Also, you may note that the weight is off of his back foot at contact, meaning he rotated all of his weight into the ball.

If he was fooled so much that he pushed the bat as you say, I guarantee the ball would not have gone out of the park.

I've seen him hit a 5o mph BP pitch 420 feet to left center. I doubt that he pushes the bat.

[jbooth]

Awesome rotation, keeping behind the ball and rotating around an axis.

Yep, and the force from his rotation moved all of his weight onto the front foot. Note that his back foot is unweighted at ball contact.

[Ohfor]

You can't have it both ways Jim.

These two swings are vastly different.

One is very high level. The other has a flaw.

[Mark H]

Arms do look odd but I count a four frame swing.

[tominct]

Yep, and the force from his rotation moved all of his weight onto the front foot. Note that his back foot is unweighted at ball contact.



PLease, some clarification...

Unweighted menas NOT weighted correct? That would mean 0% weighted, no weight whatsoever on the back foot....like this:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?z=9&c=4&n=1&m=24&w=4&x=0&p=17

I don't see anythign like this in Crust's clip.

Now, perhaps I am playing a semantics game here, but everyone is so very literal here, I might as well be too. From your post Jim I would assume that you belvie an UNweighted back foot is preferable to having any weight on it. Should we therefore teach our kids to hit in the manner of Roberto Clemente?

Tom

[tominct]

Well, I was meaning to copy the link to the Clemente clip. I guess I did something wrong.

Tom

[Ohfor]

Watch that rear foot really really closely.

[jbooth]

You can't have it both ways Jim.

These two swings are vastly different.

One is very high level. The other has a flaw.

They are different, and HG's is not "perfect", but he hit it out of the park, so what's the beef? And they are NOT, "VASTLY" different. They are more alike than you seem to understand.

You seem to think that there is only ONE way to apply enough forces to the ball, to get it out of the park. You are wrong.

[jbooth]

PLease, some clarification...

Unweighted menas NOT weighted correct? That would mean 0% weighted, no weight whatsoever on the back foot....like this:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?z=9&c=4&n=1&m=24&w=4&x=0&p=17

I don't see anythign like this in Crust's clip.

Now, perhaps I am playing a semantics game here, but everyone is so very literal here, I might as well be too. From your post Jim I would assume that you belvie an UNweighted back foot is preferable to having any weight on it. Should we therefore teach our kids to hit in the manner of Roberto Clemente?

Tom

You can try to understand the function or you can debate semantics. Sure his back foot has contact with the ground so it isn't 100% unweighted. I would venture that 99.99999% of the forces moving during rotation are being applied to his front foot. Should you teach to hit like Clemente? Why not, it worked for him.

There are a LOT of ways to hit the ball, you need to understand the underlying, important functions. There are several ways to swing, and there are many cues, and methods that can be used to accomplish any of the methods. Until you understand what the important things are, and that there are more than one way to execute them, you will not be the best teacher you can be.

[Ohfor]

They are different, and HG's is not "perfect", but he hit it out of the park, so what's the beef? And they are NOT, "VASTLY" different. They are more alike than you seem to understand.

You seem to think that there is only ONE way to apply enough forces to the ball, to get it out of the park. You are wrong.

Oh Boy....Here comes the cookie cutter argument. The "there is only one way" accusation...........even though their is no evidence of such.

Is this what they call a "straw man" arugment?

[hiddengem]

I see good rotation, however, it breaks down...... It also seems that his arms are pushing at the ball into a V. It could just be that he was fooled by a pitch.


What you guys need to realize is the only thing you are learning around here for the most part, is how to execute a swing that is perfect on a fastball perfectly timed. That is very evident by this comment and Richards. Jim(jbooth) is the one person around here that sees the big picture.

If I were to have just continued on with the rotation in these swings and not extended my hands and arms through these balls I would have simply hit a 17 hopper to 3rd base and or missed the ball completely. I find it funny that because of the good adjustment I made on these pitches, you say they are flaws.

Custs homerun was a fastball about 92 middle away. Go figure.

[hiddengem]

This was a 92mph fastball up and in a bit that I hit off the left center wall.

[Jake83]

This was a 92mph fastball up and in a bit that I hit off the left center wall.




Keep your weight back and drive. Perfect example.

[Ohfor]

...If I were to have just continued on with the rotation in these swings and not extended my hands and arms through these balls I would have simply hit a 17 hopper to 3rd base and or missed the ball completely....

Unless of course, you tilted over and were able to rotate to those locations.

Keep up the good work.

[jbooth]

Keep your weight back and drive. Perfect example.

Please clarify "keep your weight back"

His back foot is dragging on his toe at contact. His upper body mass is "back" (centered between his feet), but the weight is and all the force from momentum of rotation is on his front foot.

[LClifton]

Jim(jbooth) is the one person around here that sees the big picture

I agreed with your hand strength comment.
In essence agreed with the "flat thru contact" argument.
And Jim is the "ONLY" one huh?
I personally think Jim is a student of the swing and a teacher of the swing,,,And I believe he does a good job at it.
But he is not the only one that sees the big picture.

LClifton

[Ohfor]

This was a 92mph fastball up and in a bit that I hit off the left center wall.



Where is the tilt in any of these swings?

This swing is much better.

But, watch your shoulder rotation stop to allow the arms/hands to take over.

Compare your shoulder rotation to that of Cust..........or Bonds.........or Pujols.........or Manny.

The type of shoulder rotation you see from the other guys is quicker which allows another frame or two of read time. They hit the ball deeper than you do. Their shoulders go to contact ahead of the hands. Yours (shoulders) are behind them (hands). Their body is inside the swing arc. Yours is behind it. Their axis of rotation is like a merry go round's axis. Yours is like gear A turning gear B. Yours is like your hands pushing the merry go round.

Don't take my efforts in the wrong way. I'm thrilled to know you. I'm trilled to be able to talk hitting with you. I'm pulling for you.

I also recognize why you may not want to change things.

[Ohfor]

Check out Cust's hands and how they are almost "at his rear hip" at launch and they move to the ball with the rear hip. This is the ultimate connection.

This is also a key to both timing and hitting the ball deep.

Have you ever stood next to a catcher catching a pitcher in the bullpen? I imagine the answer is yes. Time your rear hip to ball arrival. Whether he throws a fastball, a changeup or any other pitch, it's easy to time with your rear hip.

Learn to fasten your hands there like Cust, and let the hip bring them around and you'll feel a tremendous ability to adjust to all the pitches.

[jbooth]

I agreed with your hand strength comment.
In essence agreed with the "flat thru contact" argument.
And Jim is the "ONLY" one huh?
I personally think Jim is a student of the swing and a teacher of the swing,,,And I believe he does a good job at it.
But he is not the only one that sees the big picture.

LClifton

I don't mean to speak for him, but I don't think he meant LITERALLY that I am the ONLY one. I think he was frustrated by the ignorance of some people who frequent this board, and that he meant; of the people he has spoken to and/or interacted with personally and/or privately from this board, I am high on the list of those that he thinks see the whole picture.

Yes, I am a student and teacher and I believe I have now gotten an understanding of the swing, that is beyond that of many here who seem to think they know it all.

[Ohfor]

...And they are NOT, "VASTLY" different...

If they aren't vastly different then HG should be able to do what Cust does and Cust should be able to do what HG does.

I say the over/under on each being able to swing like the other is 5 years.

These swings are vastly different.

Before you crown yourself "king of the hill" I suggest you still can't determine rotation from the center when you see it. And, that doesn't surprise me.

When one rotates from the center properly and the other does not, that is VASTLY different.

[jbooth]

Unless of course, you tilted over and were able to rotate to those locations.

Keep up the good work.

Why does he have to tilt, when his way got the job done? He didn't hit a 17 hopper, he hit a HR. He may also have hit a HR by doing what you say, but who cares when it scores a run?

Ted Williams never tilted the way you say hitters must and he did alright. There's more than one way to achieve the same result.

There are certain things that if done, and not changed, guarantee failure, but there are more than one way to achieve success.

[Ohfor]

Why does he have to tilt, when his way got the job done?...

Keep making ridiculous statements like this and I will officially dethrone you.

[Jake83]

Please clarify "keep your weight back"

His back foot is dragging on his toe at contact. His upper body mass is "back" (centered between his feet), but the weight is and all the force from momentum of rotation is on his front foot.


It is a saying that he let the ball enter the hitting zone and didn't lunge after it which causes pop ups or with good contact line drives foul.

[jbooth]

It is a saying that he let the ball enter the hitting zone and didn't lunge after it which causes pop ups or with good contact line drives foul.

OK, I agree with that.

"Stay back" is a saying that has been around for a long time and it is accurate, but it doesn't really mean what it says. It means keep the upper body mass centered between your feet, don't let it move over your front foot. It doesn't really mean "back" if you think of "back" as over your back foot.

[jbooth]

You can't have it both ways Jim.

These two swings are vastly different.

One is very high level. The other has a flaw.

Bonds' 661st HR seems to have a flaw, maybe you should tell him


Number 715 has a similar flaw, guess he's nearing the end his swing is so bad.

[fpdad]

It looks like Bonds upper spine is tilted more over the plate and the bat is perpendicular to the spine.
David looks more upright and his swing plane looks lower than his shoulder plane.

Bonds front arm looks like it's in the shoulder plane compared to Dave.
David's back arm is extended more also , but he is also hitting further out front.
When he initiates his swing the back elbow drops early, he stays upright, and his hands go to the ball.
I'd like to see other swings to see if this an adjustment for this pitch or a overall pattern.

[jbooth]

It looks like Bonds upper spine is tilted more over the plate and the bat is perpendicular to the spine.
David looks more upright and his swing plane looks lower than his shoulder plane.

Bonds front arm looks like it's in the shoulder plane compared to Dave.
David's back arm is extended more also , but he is also hitting further out front.
When he initiates his swing the back elbow drops early, he stays upright, and his hands go to the ball.
I'd like to see other swings to see if this an adjustment for this pitch or a overall pattern.

In 661 Bonds is tilted more because the pitch is low AND away, he is still extending his arms in addition to that, to get to the ball. Dave didn't need to tilt that much. Also, Dave has already made contact, Bonds hasn't reached the ball yet, his extension a frame later will look like Dave's.

In 715 Bonds' arms are fully extended even with his tilt. The point I was trying to make with these pics was to respond to a post about his arms being straight and that he pushed the bat. That isn't true, and extending the front forearm LATE in the swing, doesn't hurt you much.

Dropping the back elbow early isn't a big deal either, provided that the 90 degree, forearm to bat angle, is kept intact and the hands stay near the shoulder. He does that. There are flaws that will keep you from being succesful and their are flaws that are pretty insignificant.

Dave's swing might not be as good as Bonds' or Pujols', but whose is? How many players can do what those 2 can do? You don't need perfection to be successful. And even the MLB all-stars don't swing to perfection on every swing of every at-bat. Bonds and Pujols aren't hitting 1.000 or even .500. They make bad swings. The pitcher has a lot to do with most that.

It's one thing to point out flaws in a swing where the hitter is 0 for 6 with 6 K's and the flaw is causing the K's. It's kind of silly to point out flaws in a swing that produced 3 HR's two of them back-to-back. The flaws must not be THAT bad.

[Mark H]

I don't mean to speak for him, but I don't think he meant LITERALLY that I am the ONLY one. I think he was frustrated by the ignorance of some people who frequent this board, and that he meant; of the people he has spoken to and/or interacted with personally and/or privately from this board, I am high on the list of those that he thinks see the whole picture.

Yes, I am a student and teacher and I believe I have now gotten an understanding of the swing, that is beyond that of many here who seem to think they know it all.

You have come far and fast since the first day I read your stuff on eteamz. Being willling to question your own beliefs and dig is part of that. Actually teaching a lot of kids to hit is a huge advantage in accelerating your learning process as well. An advantage I can't claim in terms of total numbers. I would recommend your learning method to Tom. I couldn't be happier about the journey you have made. You're still a crusty bristly old buzzard, but you ARE a pretty darn smart buzzard.

[Mark H]

Why does he have to tilt, when his way got the job done? He didn't hit a 17 hopper, he hit a HR. He may also have hit a HR by doing what you say, but who cares when it scores a run?

Ted Williams never tilted the way you say hitters must and he did alright. There's more than one way to achieve the same result.

There are certain things that if done, and not changed, guarantee failure, but there are more than one way to achieve success.

I don't think HG was saying this was an ideal swing. I think he is saying it was an ideal adjustment when he got something different from what he was expecting.

I'll go look at some TW clips but if you are suggesting there is another ideal way to find swing plane beside posture, I would suspect you are letting your irritation with Ohfor override your knowledge base.

[Mark H]

OK, I agree with that.

"Stay back" is a saying that has been around for a long time and it is accurate, but it doesn't really mean what it says. .

I know what you are saying but you have to admit this sentence is hilarious.

[fpdad]

Then Dave is successful at his level in spite of any flaws? Or as you say thery're not that important.
He seems to very athletic, in that he drops his back elbow a lot without this torso turning, even through toe touch, heel plant and after and then he rotates very quickly.
Will this cost him at a higher level of pitching or is already able to play at the highest level? Is he in the majors?
My kids couldn't get away with what he does.

[Mark H]

Keep in mind the difference between the ideal swing and ideal adjustment when fooled and keep in mind it's a four frame swing.

[fpdad]

So his quickness saves him?
And quickness is the goal, rather than what we may think is flawed?
Wouldn't his back arm dropping add into his frame count?
Or do you count from first torso movement?

[jbooth]

Then Dave is successful at his level in spite of any flaws? Or as you say thery're not that important.
He seems to very athletic, in that he drops his back elbow a lot without this torso turning, even through toe touch, heel plant and after and then he rotates very quickly.
Will this cost him at a higher level of pitching or is already able to play at the highest level? Is he in the majors?
My kids couldn't get away with what he does.

He is currently with Triple-A Portland (Padres affiliate), but he spent a little time in MLB with the Astros, and a bit of time with the Angels, and was in spring training this year with the Padres. The Angels organization practically forced him to get his back elbow down early. They said, "Do it that way or else." He is trying to fix that, but as I said, that move alone and not done in a "bat drag" manner is not a big deal.

[jojab]

Where is the tilt in any of these swings?

This swing is much better.

But, watch your shoulder rotation stop to allow the arms/hands to take over.

Compare your shoulder rotation to that of Cust..........or Bonds.........or Pujols.........or Manny.

The type of shoulder rotation you see from the other guys is quicker which allows another frame or two of read time. They hit the ball deeper than you do. Their shoulders go to contact ahead of the hands. Yours (shoulders) are behind them (hands). Their body is inside the swing arc. Yours is behind it. Their axis of rotation is like a merry go round's axis. Yours is like gear A turning gear B. Yours is like your hands pushing the merry go round.


Well done, Richard. I think you are exactly right in what you are seeing. You have an unique ability to break down a swing.

Jim - As Ohfor notes, HG is not just doing this on the pitch he was fooled on but also on the fastball. There is a difference in what he's doing and what Cust, Bonds, Pujols and Manny are doing.

Your comment that Dave's swing might not be as good as Bonds and Pujols but "so what" seems to miss the point of Ohfor's comments. If there is something they are doing differently than Dave, then he, perhaps in the offseason, may want to experiment with it in an effort to improve himself.

[chesspirate]

The Angels organization practically forced him to get his back elbow down early. They said, "Do it that way or else." .

Hey Jim (or better yet HG) i'd like some elaboration here, does the organization as a whole have an opinion on the back elbow?

[jbooth]

Where is the tilt in any of these swings?

This swing is much better.

But, watch your shoulder rotation stop to allow the arms/hands to take over.

Compare your shoulder rotation to that of Cust..........or Bonds.........or Pujols.........or Manny.

The type of shoulder rotation you see from the other guys is quicker which allows another frame or two of read time. They hit the ball deeper than you do. Their shoulders go to contact ahead of the hands. Yours (shoulders) are behind them (hands). Their body is inside the swing arc. Yours is behind it. Their axis of rotation is like a merry go round's axis. Yours is like gear A turning gear B. Yours is like your hands pushing the merry go round.

Don't take my efforts in the wrong way. I'm thrilled to know you. I'm trilled to be able to talk hitting with you. I'm pulling for you.

I also recognize why you may not want to change things.

Your comparisons are valid, but I think you're missing the point. HG is showing you a swing that had a good result that may not be his best swing. The swings that many of us post and analyze here, of Bonds and Pujols etc, are usually swings we got from the pro media of HR swings they made on mistake fastballs.

Do you have any swings of the "big boy" stars that are NOT perfect swings? Do you have any that are HR swings that don't fit the "perfect swing" category?

Let's compare apples to apples. Let's look at those swings and compare them to HG's, and hopefully HG will get a clip of himself making what he considers his best swing at a mistake fastball and we can compare that to the big stars' best swings.

The point HG and I are trying to make is; nobody gets off a "perfect" swing all that often in a game situation, and it is possible to get very good results, even on a less than perfect swing.

Sure, one needs to know what a perfect swing looks like, and how it works, and hopefully be able to execute one, but the main goal is to get on base.

I have recorded many episodes of Baseball Tonight's "Touch 'em all" segment, and analyze each swing. There are many HR's hit with swings that are not textbook perfect and from looking at more than one of a particular player's HR's, you can see that his swing is not always exactly the same, or perfect on each swing that resulted in a HR.

The VERY elite hitters who are the all-stars of the all-stars, such as Bonds, Pujols and Manny Rameriz make near perfect swings consistently, but the rest of the guys don't and there are a lot of players who are having and have had; long MLB careers who didn't hit for a super high average and/or hit a lot of HR's.

You can analyze a posted swing and critique it against a perfect swing, or you can critique it against criteria that can be successful.

Paul Nyman once asked seriously for an answer to the question; "How is it that a player can make a less than optimum swing and still hit a HR?"

I believe I know, and Paul was stumped because he is too hung up on believing that the body must move according to his analysis of the physics of it, or it won't work. He's wrong.

You have a very good understanding of what a good swing looks like, and you can recognize the differences between that and someone's swing that doesn't match what you know is best, but I don't think you REALLY understand how the parts work and which ones are important versus those that are insignificant. I get the impression that it is "all or nothing" with you. You think a player can't be successful unless their swing looks like the one you know to be perfect.

[Ohfor]

The following has little to do with HG and a lot to do with jbooth.

Jim

Your series of posts tonight, including the stills of Bonds, shows you aren't anywhere near the top of the hitting ladder. You're foot is reaching for the first rung.

Not that I'm that far ahead of you. But....

My comments have everything to do with two things. HG still doesn't rotate from his center as well as Cust and the other mlb players mentioned. And, he doesn't have the proper tilt which would help him handle the strike zone and it would provide more of a "load" to quicken the swing. A result of all of this is his shoulder rotation is inadequate and he swings with his arms. It also offers insight into his "strong hands" belief.

In response to my comments about tilt and rotation from the center, you post clips showing Bonds arms extended to reach pitches and then say "see, nana nana boo boo". "Barry extended his arms".

I made no mention of HG's arm extension.

On every clip shown, he has incomplete shoulder rotation and his arms take over. That is a result of poor rotation from the center. Compare him to Cust and see what rotation from the center looks like.

I enjoy HG's company. I acknowledge I've never played at his level. Neither have you. I think he helps all of us learn. The difference between me and you is you're in awe of his "position" as a professional player. I am also. But my "awe struckness" doesn't override my ability to analyze and remain honest.

If all of these swings are "adjustments", fine. Show me the good swing to compare them to. I suspect every clip will show the lack of rotation from the center because when you rotate from the center and make adjustments, they look different than these swings.

HG is old enough, smart enough and has played enough to separate what he can use and what he can't. He can, probably will, and probably should ignore all that is said at this time. Changing mid season is not recommended. But, as a professional player, I doubt he is looking for what he's doing right. I bet he's looking for things that can help him. If he's smart he'll analyze what everyone has to say and use what he can when he can. The last thing he should want is gushing dishonesty from awestruck fans.

Mark

I'll bet a milk shake there is at least one frame missing.....in the area from lag to contact.

[hiddengem]

I don't mean to speak for him, but I don't think he meant LITERALLY that I am the ONLY one. I think he was frustrated by the ignorance of some people who frequent this board, and that he meant; of the people he has spoken to and/or interacted with personally and/or privately from this board, I am high on the list of those that he thinks see the whole picture.

Yes, I am a student and teacher and I believe I have now gotten an understanding of the swing, that is beyond that of many here who seem to think they know it all.


This is what I meant. Sorry if I offended you Clif.

[hiddengem]

Does anybody have clips of Rob Quinlan. he's got a right down "ugly" swing yet he hit .300+ every year in the minors and had a 25+ game hitting streak in the majors. I was there when the Angels tried to help him with his swing. He crapped the bed trying.

Any clips of Garrett Anderson or Cal Ripken? Lets look at some different hitters other than the standard Pujols, Bonds or Manny. Not everybody is gifted enough to do certain things that the "superstars" do.

[jbooth]

Jim

Your series of posts tonight, including the stills of Bonds, shows you aren't anywhere near the top of the hitting ladder. You're foot is reaching for the first rung.

That's your opinion. I have a current pro and and former MLB player who think differently. Your opinion has no value to me, but their's does. The former MLB player brings his 11 year-old son to me. He's managing the league's 11yo All-star team and he asked me to help him. Got anybody like that asking you for help?


Not that I'm that far ahead of you.

You're probably NOT ahead of me. But that's MY opinion and I don't care what you think of it. I have no respect for you as a person or a teacher, and my only regret is that I broke my vow to myself to never respond to any of your posts.


In response to my comments about tilt and rotation from the center, you post clips showing Bonds arms extended to reach pitches and then say "see, nana nana boo boo". "Barry extended his arms".

Yeah, because it isn't just about tilt. It's tilt and sometimes arm adjustment in addition.


The difference between me and you is you're in awe of his "position" as a professional player.

You don't know anything about me, if you did, you'd know that I'm not awestruck by anybody, and my first communications with HG on this board were to tell him he didn't know what he was talking about on the hands topic. He is a cool enough guy to have forgiven me for not being awestruck, and we now talk often.


But, as a professional player, I doubt he is looking for what he's doing right. I bet he's looking for things that can help him. If he's smart he'll analyze what everyone has to say and use what he can when he can.

That's exactly what he's doing. Just so happens he agrees with a lot of what I have to say. Are you jealous, you jerk?

[hiddengem]

I see good rotation, however, it breaks down...... It also seems that his arms are pushing at the ball into a V. It could just be that he was fooled by a pitch.


Why does it have to be that I'm "pushing" at the ball? Why can't it be that I'm "letting" my arms extend to the ball rather than holding them in. If these were fastballs and I wasn't out in front, I'd hold my hands and arms in closer rather than letting them extend to contact.

[hiddengem]

Hey Jim (or better yet HG) i'd like some elaboration here, does the organization as a whole have an opinion on the back elbow?


Yes, they want the back elbow coming down early and getting into their side. There are quite a few great hitters in the organization that have alot of success doing it.

[Jake83]

Yes, they want the back elbow coming down early and getting into their side. There are quite a few great hitters in the organization that have alot of success doing it.


Is that because they want players to drive the ball into the gaps at Petco instead of swinging for the fences

[hiddengem]

Is that because they want players to drive the ball into the gaps at Petco instead of swinging for the fences

This is Anaheim we're talking about.

[hiddengem]

...........

[Jake83]

This is Anaheim we're talking about.


Mickey Hatcher is a joke of a hitting coach and if any information comes from him I would turn away.

[hiddengem]

Mickey Hatcher is a joke of a hitting coach and if any information comes from him I would turn away.

Excuse me? Have you ever worked with Mickey Hatcher? Do you have some sort of first hand knowledge you could share with us?

[Jake83]

Excuse me? Have you ever worked with Mickey Hatcher? Do you have some sort of first hand knowledge you could share with us?


I have heard him speak numerous times on his theroies of hitting and he is someone who thinks practice is more important than changing a hitter's approach. Which is fact compounds certain Angel hitters problems at the plate alas....Dallas McPherson someone who should and could become a 300 hitter and Lead the league in homers instad of looking like another Rob Deer.

[hiddengem]

Dallas McPherson someone who should and could become a 300 hitter and Lead the league in homers instad of looking like another Rob Deer.

Thats all I needed to hear...thanks.

[Jake83]

Thats all I needed to hear...thanks.


You played with him at SLC last year you have an idea of his upside. He looks like a young Jim Thome a Player who almost strikes out, walks or homers every time at the plate

[hiddengem]

You played with him at SLC last year you have an idea of his upside. He looks like a young Jim Thome a Player who almost strikes out, walks or homers every time at the plate

no comment.

[GuitarMan]

I'm an idiot. I'm in Portland on business, and I've been just sitting around tonight not doing much and I just realized that I could have gone to the Beavers game. D'oh!

[Jake83]

I'm an idiot. I'm in Portland on business, and I've been just sitting around tonight not doing much and I just realized that I could have gone to the Beavers game. D'oh!


Just about the only option in Portland

[Ohfor]

...my only regret is that I broke my vow to myself to never respond to any of your posts.

Maybe I can help you........It's the facts that bothered you.

You made ridiculous statements, you were called on them, the facts were against you, and you had to try to save face.

Just like you're trying to do here. After all, "I'm Jim Booth" (as in Denny Crane).

[Ohfor]

...

Any clips of Garrett Anderson or Cal Ripken? Lets look at some different hitters other than the standard Pujols, Bonds or Manny. Not everybody is gifted enough to do certain things that the "superstars" do.





Garret Anderson (http://www.teachersbilliards.com/anderson_garret.mpg)

I don't have any clips of Ripkin.

I see the Cardinals on a regular basis. From David Eckstein, to So Taguchi, to Aaron Miles and John Rodriquez (none superstars) ALL of them rotate from their center.

Juan Encarnacion is pitiful this year. I'd like to know who he's been listening to or if he simply forgot how to swing. They ought to be comparing his swings from his days with the Reds to now. It is completely different.

As for a major leaguer with a bad swing I think Scott Spezio has to be near the top of the list. Another "athlete" who can get it done with less than optimal mechanics.

[jbooth]

Maybe I can help you........It's the facts that bothered you.

You made ridiculous statements, you were called on them, the facts were against you, and you had to try to save face.

Just like you're trying to do here. After all, "I'm Jim Booth" (as in Denny Crane).

Facts as you see them, and you still don't get the point, and I don't have enough respect for you to bother debating it with you. Nor, do I want to debate with a guy who responds more with personal insults than well presented justification for his beliefs and has tunnel vision, unopen to any ideas contrary to his. The statements weren't ridiculous, you just can't see the point of them.

I'm not trying to save face. I see no reason why I have to. You don't intimidate me, you jerk, you just aggravate me. I can fix that by doing what I was doing before yesterday, just ignore you.

[GFK]

I see good rotation, however, it breaks down...... It also seems that his arms are pushing at the ball into a V. It could just be that he was fooled by a pitch.

Within the early Setpro forums, there was a discussion of the swing starting as a flail and ending in a whip by extending into contact. The swing was still powered by rotation because the hitter would rotate into extension. The method of flail-whip was not presented as an absolute but as a form used by some high level hitters. Sosa and Mac were given as examples.

It seems to me both hiddengem and #29's swing go from flail to whip and not pushing at the ball into a V. As I remember it, Fungo22 started the thread. He may have more input and knowledge regarding the idea of flail transitioning to whip.

(No I don't think I am dead on. I reserve the right to be wrong and get smarter.)

Ohfor, thanks for the Anderson clips!

[fungo22]

What you guys need to realize is the only thing you are learning around here for the most part, is how to execute a swing that is perfect on a fastball perfectly timed. This is correct for the most part. But we are also learning a swing that is quick enough to "wait longer" so that something other than a fastball might be picked up ... but still get around on a fastball.


Jim(jbooth) is the one person around here that sees the big picture. I'm not so sure about that. It may be that he talks about it more when that is what you want to talk about. We are not so focused on the "big picture." For the most part, the little picture of teaching good PCR is all we can handle. It is enough for now, I think. Hitting coaches with more experience at the higher levels are more qualified than us to help out with the big picture.


If I were to have just continued on with the rotation in these swings and not extended my hands and arms through these balls I would have simply hit a 17 hopper to 3rd base and or missed the ball completely. I find it funny that because of the good adjustment I made on these pitches, you say they are flaws. I must admit that this is true. I think all three swings start out pretty good (in the "efficient" and "optimal" sense) - which I believe is what enabled you to generate the momentum necessary to hit the ball as well as you did even though you had to extend your arms and "give up" your rotation toward the end (i.e, make adjustments).

A couple more words on issues related to the "big picture." Another reason we don't talk about adjustments off the "optimal swing" is that some things just can't be taught - at least by most of us. Hitters at the higher levels have efficient swings which, for the most part, exhibit PCR. We can teach PCR, but some things that hitters at that level do are beyong our ability to teach. Some things depend on strength, some things depend on experience and good instincts, and some things depend on talent and athleticism. If we fail to sufficiently discuss these adjustments, it is because they are beyond our control. We tend to focus on only those things that we can have an influence on. PCR is within that sphere of influence. The other things in addition to PCR are not. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate the "big picture," including adjustments and compensations made by strong and gifted hitters with good instincts. It just means it is beyond our sphere of influence.

Concerning the "little picture," however, I think there are several on this forum who have a better understanding of what constitutes an efficent or "optimal" swing and how to develop one than most with high-level coaching and playing experience. I'm not sure whether Jim Booth is among them, but he does seem to have a better understanding than when he first blustered into h-m.org.

I've used an editorial "we" a lot in this post. Perhaps I'm just talking about myself. Keep up the good work HG.

[Ursa Major]

Gee, Ohfor, JBooth keeps his head low for several month, and once he pops back in you feel you need to shoot it off, rather than sticking with the purpose of the thread and look and learn regarding HG's swings. Is there some leftover baggage from Hitting-mechanics.org or something?

Jim did not try to anoint himself "king of the hill"; if anything, he tried to modestly deflect HG's accolade. And Jim is one of the few people on the boards I've seen who both exhibits high level knowledge and a fierce desire to challenge old prejudices to advance his knowledge. I don't talk to him but every few months, but -- when I do -- he's never more excited than when he's picked up a new way to understand or teach a facet of hitting or correct a hitting flaw. And, he tests it out with students.

I do give some credence to HG's assessment of Jim's knowledge -- apart from what he says in the forums -- because HG has actually sat down with Jim and talked hitting with him in person. So have I. Have you?

Anyway, you're so fired up to disagree with Jim that I think your judgment has been a little clouded. For example:

Where is the tilt in any of these swings?I think the tilt is just fine. It's hard to see from the side angle, but he does a little last minute fall, then straightens up just after contact. Compare his tilt on the low slider to that on the higher pitches. He certainly has more tilt than Anderson does in the game clip posted above. Part of the intriguing thing about HG's swing and how it has changed over the past six months is how little his swing seems to change from pitch to pitch and location to location, but he's still perpendicular to his spine.
But, watch your shoulder rotation stop to allow the arms/hands to take over.I don't think it stops. He stays inside the ball a little more than Cust, giving up a little in pop to make sure he makes better contact. I think also we're seeing what HG has been trying to explain over and over; when you're facing high level pitching coming at you with motion and three or four different speeds, the hands are going to have to play a more prominent role in adjusting to speed and location than they would for a high school hitter. And the hands can, because his hands and arms are stronger than a high school kid.
If they aren't vastly different then HG should be able to do what Cust does and Cust should be able to do what HG does.Well, that's about the dumbest thing you've said in a long time. To start with, I agree with Jim that the key differences between Cust and HG aren't so pronounced; they finish much differently, but that's after-contact style. But go ahead and take us through them, if you think it's important.

I'm not sure what you mean by your comment that Cust and HG should be able to do what each other does. If I can perfectly mimic Pujols' swing, should I be able to hit major league pitching? If Cust and HG do have differences, Cust outweighs HG by 60 pounds and HG hits in a different spot in the lineup, with a different role in the team's offense. Even so, Cust has homered every fifteen at-bats and HG every eighteen. I'd say it's pretty close on that score notwithstanding their size difference... So, what's your point?

[dannyboy]

fungo,

while adjustments and compensations made by strong and gifted hitters with good instincts can't be taught, I don't think it is beyond the ability of a coach to influence.

[MSandman]

I don't think it stops. He stays inside the ball a little more than Cust, giving up a little in pop to make sure he makes better contact.

[Ohfor]

...I think the tilt is just fine...

Now I have to question your intellectual honesty and "star stuckness" or your ability to analyze swings.

HG has no tilt. Because he has no tilt his swing plane does not match his shoulder turn plane. Because his swing plane isn't perp to the spine, he can not adjust to pitches with his posture. He has to swing with his arms. Yes, he plays at a high level. Apparently very athletic. Good for him. Great for him. I'm pulling for him.

I'm also pulling for Jim to learn swing analysis. Now, I'm pulling for you.

Both you and Jim have "spoken the truth" before but now you ignore the truth. Why? Because he's your friend? Star struckness? Afraid to hurt feelings? Go ahead an enable him. I won't be a party to that.

You both have stepped on the wrong side of quality instruction. You have to offer honest evaluation or you're hurting HG, and every reader of this site.

As far as carry over from H-M site. In the last few weeks I've agreed with Jim many times. In fact, I don't remember the hitter but the swing was very similar to HG's. Jim was saying the same things I'm saying. I posted agreement. But, now that it's HG, now that a couple of balls were well hit, he can't see straight.

HG's results, although improved, will be inconsistent because his swing doesn't offer HG enough decision time. Every ball shown is hit out front. Check out the difference between where Cust hits the ball and where HG hits the ball. Probably a 2-3 foot difference. The time that takes is the difference between adjusting for pitch speed and location and not.

As I said before, maybe these are adjustment swings. Fine. Show me fastball down central. If I'm wrong I'll tell you I'm wrong. But the way these swings start lead me to believe they all start that way.

[fungo22]

Richard, I think the test of your posture (torso tilt) concerns would be to see how HG sets up for a fastball down in the zone or a downward moving pitch that he reads early enough to tilt (swoop) to hit. But in comparing the two hitters, it seems to me that there are two cases of adjustments made with the arms on the part of both hitters.

We've already discussed those made by HG, and his lack of tilt may be more a case of the pitch ending up at a location lower than that originally projected when his tilt/swing path was set. Consequently, he had to use his hands to adjust. We know this happens even with good hitters, :) meaning even the best hitters at the MLB level. We've seen clips of Arod and most recently Sweeney hitting the ball pretty will with hand/arm adjustments at the end (intead of with opitmal PCR). I'm not sure we've seen enough of HG's swings to identify his late disconnection as a swing flaw in these swings.

On the other hand, I believe that Cust's swing shows similar adjustments with the hands. The difference is that his adjustment is for a pitch that is higher than his original swing plane. Mark observed that he was doing something strange with his hands/arms. It looks like to me that his tilt and originaly swing path is for a pitch lower than the one he actually got and that he is compensating/making adjustments with this hands/arms.

Or so it seems to me.

[jojab]

Now I have to question your intellectual honesty and "star stuckness" or your ability to analyze swings.


I had the same thoughts when reading Ursa’s post. Since when is sitting down and talking with someone in person a precursor to analyzing a video clip of their swing? Since when do we ask where a hitter bats in the line-up or how much they weigh before offering up an opinion?

Ursa, you may not like Richard’s over the top approach but I’d challenge you to go back and find where his analysis of a swing has been off. He is often the first one to offer up an opinion when someone posts a clip. I can recall on another site where someone posted Upton’s swing clip with no identification of who it was and asked for an analysis. Richard stepped right up and said it was outstanding. He calls them like he sees them regardless of who is holding the bat.

[jbooth]

I had the same thoughts when reading Ursa’s post. Since when is sitting down and talking with someone in person a precursor to analyzing a video clip of their swing? Since when do we ask where a hitter bats in the line-up or how much they weigh before offering up an opinion?

Ursa, you may not like Richard’s over the top approach but I’d challenge you to go back and find where his analysis of a swing has been off. He is often the first one to offer up an opinion when someone posts a clip. I can recall on another site where someone posted Upton’s swing clip with no identification of who it was and asked for an analysis. Richard stepped right up and said it was outstanding. He calls them like he sees them regardless of who is holding the bat.

You're not getting the point any better than Ohfor and fungo22.

I agree that HG's swing at the ball was not the picture perfect, swing at a ball on a tee, swing. If you strictly want to analyze the swing by comparing what it looks like, to what a perfect swing looks like, then yes, it is not perfect.

There is more to HITTING, than just the SWING. One can make a perfect swing and not hit the ball, and also make a crummy swing and hit a HR.

Guys like Bonds, Pujols and Manny Ramirez have a gift and talent to make near perfect swings in games. MOST players even at the MLB level cannot do that.

I have a couple of students who have beautiful, near perfect swings from a mechanics point of view, and they can't hit for beans in a game. I have a couple of other students who have knocked it out of the park more than once and their swings are not as good as the other two.

HG's swing at the change up was flawed because he had to adjust to the pitch and in so doing his mechanics broke down a little bit, but the POINT is, the mechanics were still good enough to hit the ball out of the park. Now, if the catcher had told him a change up was coming, he probably wouldn't have had a breakdown in mechanics.

On the fastball he hit, the swing may not be perfect, but again, it was good enough, and maybe on a similar pitch later, he would hit it with a perfect swing.

The goal is to hit the ball, and every MLB player from Bonds on down, will sometimes make the adjustment to hit the ball, by tilting only, sometimes with arm adjustment only, and sometimes they will tilt more AND use an arm adjustment. The goal is to hit the ball! The reason they (including HG) can often get a good result even when they had to tilt more than they wanted and change their arm angles more than they wanted, is; they all START the swing correctly, and the adjustments are LATE in the swing. Tremendous forces have been applied and momentum generated, well before they have to adjust. The adjustment mostly just changes the direction of the momentum, it doesn't decrease it much if the adjustment is small.

Once a player has reached a high level of swing mechanic, whether he has success or not, depends on his ability to time the swing correctly and to make adjustments to get the bat on the ball. If those adjustments are minor because of good timing and a good start to the swing, the hitter will be a successful hitter. If he makes beautiful mechanical swings that are mistimed, and/or don't make the bat hit the ball, he's useless.

Obviously, the more beautiful your swing is (fundamentally sound), the better your chances for success are. And, you won't be successful at a high-level if you don't have a solid foundation of a swing.

Ohfor knows what a perfect swing looks like, and he IS good at finding the flaws and pointing out the differences between what is perfect and what the person in the clip is doing, but that doesn't make a hitter. I don't think he or most of the former H-M.org people really understand what's important and what's not, and how the mechanics actually relate to what happens to the bat, and how to be a successful hitter. All they know is what Nyman defined as a high-level swing and they don't really know how to make it happen. JMO.

If your goal is to make a swing that will hit the ball as far as you can make it go, then there are a lot of things that need to be done correctly. But, even in a HR derby contest, you don't get extra points for hitting it farther than your opponents, you just have to get more balls over the fence. In a game, the goal is to get a hit, and a HR would be nice, and to hit a HR sometimes you only need to hit it 330 feet. You can get a hit, and you can get a 330 foot HR without the swing having the components necessary to hit it 420 feet.

Again, I'm not saying that you ignore flaws and don't try to make your swing perfect, I'm just saying that some flaws will make you fail, and some flaws just mean you won't hit it 425 feet.

I think HG's frustration is from the fact that he forgot that the focus of this forum is on understanding what a perfect swing looks like, and how to learn how to execute it. He's looking for success as a hitter, not just looking to make his swing look perfect. Pro hitters all have pretty darn good swings, their ability to succeed or not, is based on the ability to make adjustments and hit the stuff the high level pitcher is throwing at them. They all hit great in BP, it's the ability to hit in a game that gets them a good paycheck.

[fungo22]

You're not getting the point any better than Ohfor and fungo22.
Did you read my post? You must not have gotten my point any better than Swingbuster typically gets it. I just read your entire post. I don't disagree with it. So which point among your pontifications do you think I failed to get, oh Sage and Seer of the Big Picture?

[jbooth]

Did you read my post? You must not have gotten my point any better than Swingbuster typically gets it. I just read your entire post. I don't disagree with it. So which point among your pontifications do you think I failed to get, oh Sage and Seer of the Big Picture?

Post #63 was a very good one. Post #68 was the one I was referring to. You did not get the point that his swing was not perfect because he intentionally changed it to adjust to the pitch. A flaw is something that is consistently wrong, that you need to fix. A game swing that isn't perfect doesn't mean you have an ingrained flaw, it just means you didn't swing perfectly on that pitch. Is his best swing perfect? Probably not. Did he have a flaw last year? Yes.

You made a very good point, (I got it), that the focus of the forum is on the perfect swing and not about the big picture of hitting. HG and I are on the same wavelength in that, we don't think there is only ONE way to move the bat to achieve success, and you don't HAVE to make a perfect swing, regardless of your theory of what a perfect swing is; in order to get a hit.

I haven't responded to all of your posts, but you have made some very good points recently, on several posts within several different threads.

[fungo22]

Post #68 was the one I was referring to. You did not get the point that his swing was not perfect because he intentionally changed it to adjust to the pitch. If you think I didn't get this point, then you need to reread both #63 and #68 where I acknowledged that this is what he was doing.


A flaw is something that is consistently wrong, that you need to fix. A game swing that isn't perfect doesn't mean you have an ingrained flaw, it just means you didn't swing perfectly on that pitch. Is his best swing perfect? Probably not. Did he have a flaw last year? Yes. I don't understand why you are defining the word "flaw" for me. But for the record, I agree with your definition. I'll reread my post again, but I don't recall claiming that HG's swing had a flaw.


You made a very good point, (I got it), that the focus of the forum is on the perfect swing and not about the big picture of hitting. HG and I are on the same wavelength in that, we don't think there is only ONE way to move the bat to achieve success, and you don't HAVE to make a perfect swing, regardless of your theory of what a perfect swing is; in order to get a hit. You and HG are not the only ones with access to that wavelength. We can be on the same wavelength without making a big deal about it. Post #63 was an attempt to explain why some of us might seem to ignore the wavelength under discussion. Circumstances dispose us to give more time and attention to a diffferent wavelength.


I haven't responded to all of your posts, but you have made some very good points recently, on several posts within several different threads. Thanx. Did you think any of them were funny?

[hiddengem]

The Reason I'm not as tilted, Richard, is because this pitch was in and up in the zone. I felt I did a pretty dang good job of adjusting my posture AND using my hands to stay on top of this fastball. I made contact on if not inside my front foot on an inside pitch, which is plenty deep in the zone. Custs, pitch was below his belt and middle away, which would call for a more tilted position. He too made contact on his front foot and in just about the same position as I.

[dougmac]

Now I have to question your intellectual honesty and "star stuckness" or your ability to analyze swings.

HG has no tilt. Because he has no tilt his swing plane does not match his shoulder turn plane. Because his swing plane isn't perp to the spine, he can not adjust to pitches with his posture. He has to swing with his arms. Yes, he plays at a high level. Apparently very athletic. Good for him. Great for him. I'm pulling for him.

I'm also pulling for Jim to learn swing analysis. Now, I'm pulling for you.

Both you and Jim have "spoken the truth" before but now you ignore the truth. Why? Because he's your friend? Star struckness? Afraid to hurt feelings? Go ahead an enable him. I won't be a party to that.

You both have stepped on the wrong side of quality instruction. You have to offer honest evaluation or you're hurting HG, and every reader of this site.

As far as carry over from H-M site. In the last few weeks I've agreed with Jim many times. In fact, I don't remember the hitter but the swing was very similar to HG's. Jim was saying the same things I'm saying. I posted agreement. But, now that it's HG, now that a couple of balls were well hit, he can't see straight.

HG's results, although improved, will be inconsistent because his swing doesn't offer HG enough decision time. Every ball shown is hit out front. Check out the difference between where Cust hits the ball and where HG hits the ball. Probably a 2-3 foot difference. The time that takes is the difference between adjusting for pitch speed and location and not.

As I said before, maybe these are adjustment swings. Fine. Show me fastball down central. If I'm wrong I'll tell you I'm wrong. But the way these swings start lead me to believe they all start that way.




Last year in "AAA" Cust hit .257 with 19 home runs and 75 RBI. He also walked 115 times which is good. He punched out 153 times which is not good and in almost 4000 AB's in the minor leagues, he has punched out once ever 3 AB's which is not good at all. If he really had a great swing to go along with the patience he shows at the plate, he would be in the big leagues, but he is basically a minor league Rob Deer. At least Deer hit his 200 home runs in the big leagues. In his 148 AB's in the big leagues he hit .220 with 5 home runs and 58 strikeouts. I will take David's swing anytime over Cust's.

[Ohfor]

Once a player has reached a high level of swing mechanic, whether he has success or not, depends on his ability to time the swing correctly and to make adjustments to get the bat on the ball.

Genius at work folks.

Duh.

And would a guy who has to start his hands early have an easier or a harder time timing pitches?

Would a guy who has to start his hands early have an easier or a harder time adjusting to location?

Would a player who launches his swing from his center have an easier time doing both?

You are right that someone doesn't get the point.

[hiddengem]

Last year in "AAA" Cust hit .257 with 19 home runs and 75 RBI. He also walked 115 times which is good. He punched out 153 times which is not good and in almost 4000 AB's in the minor leagues, he has punched out once ever 3 AB's which is not good at all. If he really had a great swing to go along with the patience he shows at the plate, he would be in the big leagues, but he is basically a minor league Rob Deer. At least Deer hit his 200 home runs in the big leagues. In his 148 AB's in the big leagues he hit .220 with 5 home runs and 58 strikeouts. I will take David's swing anytime over Cust's.

I appreiciate that Doug. You know whats funny, our roving hitting instructor is Rob Deer.

[jbooth]

You are right that someone doesn't get the point.

Yep, and it's still you.

[hiddengem]

And would a guy who has to start his hands early have an easier or a harder time timing pitches?

I don't know, I time pitches as good if not better than Cust. He miss hits balls and flat out misses balls just as much as I do. The only difference between him and I is that when he hits the ball square the ball goes alot further than mine. He's 60 lbs heavier than me.

[hiddengem]

What are you trying to show here, Sandman? Cust has more of an uppercut, his axis is further back toward the catcher, his ball is down, my ball is up and I'm on top of the ball better than him.

[hiddengem]

Good Swing?

[Ohfor]

This is a better launch, one that allows better use of the shoulders with rotation from the center even though adjustment for a low pitch was necessary. Uses tilt and arm extension to get to this pitch.

This hitter is inside the bat arc, inside the merry go round, powering the swing with rotation from the center.

Sits to hit.

Hits the ball deep in the zone.

I would say good swing or at least on the way to one. Shows good signs.

I suppose you're going to say he's a pitcher.:D

[hiddengem]

This is a better launch, one that allows better use of the shoulders with rotation from the center even though adjustment for a low pitch was necessary. Uses tilt and arm extension to get to this pitch.

This hitter is inside the bat arc, inside the merry go round, powering the swing with rotation from the center.

Sits to hit.

Hits the ball deep in the zone.

I would say good swing or at least on the way to one. Shows good signs.

I suppose you're going to say he's a pitcher.:D

No, he's a decent hitting catcher, that tells me all the time he'd love to have my hand speed. I think he's hitting .240 or so. Because he lacks it, good fastballs often beat him. He's a great 5pm hitter however.

He doesn't time pitches better than me, actually worse. Doesn't adjust to locations better than me, actually worse. But his swing is better than mine, rotates from his middle better than me. How can this be?

[fungo22]

He doesn't time pitches better than me, actually worse. Doesn't adjust to locations better than me, actually worse. But his swing is better than mine, rotates from his middle better than me. How can this be? I realize that these are rhetorical questions, but we all admit that there is more to being a successful hitter at ANY level than having and efficient (PCR) swing. I mentioned some of those requisite/variables in another post.

The issue that most concerns me is not whether there is more to being successful than PCR. That is not disputable. The issue is - all variables equal - whether the hitter with good PCR stands a better chance of being successful. I suppose that question is rhetorical as well.

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor replied to my last post as follows:
"Now I have to question your intellectual honesty and "star stuckness" or your ability to analyze swings....
HG has no tilt. Because he has no tilt his swing plane does not match his shoulder turn plane. Because his swing plane isn't perp to the spine, he can not adjust to pitches with his posture. He has to swing with his arms....
But the way these swings start lead me to believe they all start that way."Well, I never professed to be an expert at analyzing swings, and just because I don't see everything the way you do doesn't make me intellectually dishonest. My points were directed to a couple of comments of yours that I felt were not entirely accurate. As to tilt, I think HG's own response speaks for itself. But, if you slow down the one swing where he was hitting a ball lower down (mid-thigh high), you'll see that he tilts during the swing so it looks like he is perpendicular at "contact", though I admitted it's hard for you or me to be 'right' or 'wrong' given the camera perspective.

So to go on and say that he starts all his swings "that way" without saying what "that way" is or addressing what adjustments he makes after the start certainly is not intellectually rigorous, even if it's not actually intellectually dishonest.

The problem in learning from you is that you seem to enjoy speaking hyperbolically to put others down, which calls into question the opinions that flow from them. That's the way that scientific inquiry works -- a pronounced bias by the scientist leads others to question his credibility. Credibility is lost when you speculate about matters of which you do not know, such as where you assume that I'm starstruck in dealing with HG; believe me, I've had a lot more intimate contact with folks (including athletes) a lot more famous than he is, thank you. If I have a bias its because he's uncommonly generous with his time and his devotion to sharing the game with others, including my son on the one occasion we met briefly. But I'm happy to call him on some of his flaws where I see them -- we've talked about his tendency to "walk away from his hands". But I just didn't see the two you mentioned. We've talked about tilt; please educate me on the "shoulder stopping" issue you raised.


Jojab said: Since when is sitting down and talking with someone in person a precursor to analyzing a video clip of their swing? Since when do we ask where a hitter bats in the line-up or how much they weigh before offering up an opinion?
Ursa, you may not like Richard’s over the top approach but I’d challenge you to go back and find where his analysis of a swing has been off. He is often the first one to offer up an opinion when someone posts a clip. I can recall on another site where someone posted Upton’s swing clip with no identification of who it was and asked for an analysis. Richard stepped right up and said it was outstanding. He calls them like he sees them regardless of who is holding the bat. Jojab, you missed the point about "sitting down with someone." Ohfor derided HG's conclusion that Jim Booth had pretty advanced knowledge about hitting. Ohfor obviously based his conclusion on what Jim has posted here, and I know that Jim (like many others) is frustrated that trying to explain hitting concepts via the written word is not always succesful. By contrast, HG has actually met Jim in person and they've talked hitting for several hours. So, I believe HG has insight about Jim's analytical skills that Ohfor does not. And, of course, HG has credentials that Ohfor does not.

I have no desire to go back and prove that Ohfor is wrong in his swing analyses in general. I too have defended his knowledge in the face of others complaining about his antics. I don't care about showing I'm smarter than he is in general and I never have professed to be, but I think I can offer specific observations and am willing to have him or others show me I'm wrong. Calling me names does not show me that. Taking a clip, breaking it down, and offering cogent analysis might.

And I'm not doubting Ohfor's willingness to lend his opinion. So do Swingbuster and TomG, but that doesn't necessarily make them geniuses. And I'm glad that he's willing to buck others to offer his own opinions. He's just gotta back it up.

[Ursa Major]

Fungo22 said: I realize that these are rhetorical questions, but we all admit that there is more to being a successful hitter at ANY level than having and efficient (PCR) swing. I mentioned some of those requisite/variables in another post.

The issue that most concerns me is not whether there is more to being successful than PCR. That is not disputable. The issue is - all variables equal - whether the hitter with good PCR stands a better chance of being successful. I suppose that question is rhetorical as well.You and Jim touch on some critical issues that really drive to the heart of what can and should be achieved by the discussions here. I disagree with Jim to the extent he truly believes that "the focus of this forum is on understanding what a perfect swing looks like." That's certainly not my goal and the goal of many of us who teach younger (say, under 13 year old) hitters. Your point really drives to the heart of what we can hope to achieve -- giving the hitter the basic framework (such as PCR) on which he or she can add the fine tuning that actually allow him or her to hit pitches with a desired result (line drives, home runs, whatever) thrown by a specific universe of pitchers in a specific competitive environment. This fine tuning includes adjusting to pitches thrown elsewhere or elsewhen you'd like to and what compromises you might have to make to be able to hit the highest percentage of pitches you're likely to see (and thus accept that you may hit poorly against pitching that you're not gearing toward). And, I think it's fair to say that a professional level ballplayer will have to make (and can make) more adjustments to pitches than will a 12 year old Little Leaguer, so a straight PCR model will have less applicability to him than to the kid hitter. This is why I laugh when certain people rush in to offer advice about a hitter's claimed hitting problems without knowing the age or playing level of that hitter.

So, I don't think the question "of whether the hitter with good PCR stands a better chance of being successful" "is rhetorical as well". For a ten year old, I'd guess the answer is a 95% probabability of being "yes". For a major leaguer, the answer is more complicated and likely to apply in a lower percentage of hitters, depending on your definition of "PCR". (E.g., does Ryan Howard hit with PCR, or is he just a big ox?)

[Ohfor]

Well, I never professed to be an expert at analyzing swings, and just because I don't see everything the way you do doesn't make me intellectually dishonest. My points were directed to a couple of comments of yours that I felt were not entirely accurate. As to tilt, I think HG's own response speaks for itself. But, if you slow down the one swing where he was hitting a ball lower down (mid-thigh high), you'll see that he tilts during the swing so it looks like he is perpendicular at "contact", though I admitted it's hard for you or me to be 'right' or 'wrong' given the camera perspective.

So to go on and say that he starts all his swings "that way" without saying what "that way" is or addressing what adjustments he makes after the start certainly is not intellectually rigorous, even if it's not actually intellectually dishonest.

The problem in learning from you is that you seem to enjoy speaking hyperbolically to put others down, which calls into question the opinions that flow from them. That's the way that scientific inquiry works -- a pronounced bias by the scientist leads others to question his credibility. Credibility is lost when you speculate about matters of which you do not know, such as where you assume that I'm starstruck in dealing with HG; believe me, I've had a lot more intimate contact with folks (including athletes) a lot more famous than he is, thank you. If I have a bias its because he's uncommonly generous with his time and his devotion to sharing the game with others, including my son on the one occasion we met briefly. But I'm happy to call him on some of his flaws where I see them -- we've talked about his tendency to "walk away from his hands". But I just didn't see the two you mentioned. We've talked about tilt; please educate me on the "shoulder stopping" issue you raised.

Jojab, you missed the point about "sitting down with someone." Ohfor derided HG's conclusion that Jim Booth had pretty advanced knowledge about hitting. Ohfor obviously based his conclusion on what Jim has posted here, and I know that Jim (like many others) is frustrated that trying to explain hitting concepts via the written word is not always succesful. By contrast, HG has actually met Jim in person and they've talked hitting for several hours. So, I believe HG has insight about Jim's analytical skills that Ohfor does not. And, of course, HG has credentials that Ohfor does not.

I have no desire to go back and prove that Ohfor is wrong in his swing analyses in general. I too have defended his knowledge in the face of others complaining about his antics. I don't care about showing I'm smarter than he is in general and I never have professed to be, but I think I can offer specific observations and am willing to have him or others show me I'm wrong. Calling me names does not show me that. Taking a clip, breaking it down, and offering cogent analysis might.

And I'm not doubting Ohfor's willingness to lend his opinion. So do Swingbuster and TomG, but that doesn't necessarily make them geniuses. And I'm glad that he's willing to buck others to offer his own opinions. He's just gotta back it up.

Simply unbelievable.

Your clip showing his position at contact and professing it shows tilt is unbelievable to me.

Do you know what and when and where the tilt should be visible?

Do you know the benefits of tilt?

I do not call extending the arms to reach a low pitch as evidence of tilt. That's quite a bit late.

[Ohfor]

...Calling me names does not show me that.

Pointing out the fact that you write and profess PCR and then talk the opposite when analyzing "a friends" clip is calling you names? Calling you intellectually dishonest is name calling? The only name calling I've seen in this thread comes from jbooth.


Taking a clip, breaking it down, and offering cogent analysis might.

Not if you don't pay attention. I've said nothing different about any other swing clip ever posted. I've said it hundreds of times. You've often agreed.

These swings are evidence of swing plane not matching shoulder turn plane. Which arguably could be ABSOLUTE #1. It's a clear indication of poor rotation from the center. Among other things. It effects his ability to be successful.

If my posts would have been about a 12 year old kid you'd have said "great post". If my post would have been about a high school kid you'd have said "great post". But......it was about a professional hitter who happened to go deep on these swings. Well, at every level, athletes have success without doing things in the optimal manner. I bet HG was highly successful as a kid, as a prep, as a collegiate etc. I also bet the success level decreased gradually as he went up the ladder. True for most everyone I guess. But, those that go the distance demonstrate not only outstanding athletic ability but also great mechanics.

Any discussion about the catcher, who swings pretty good, yet is no better than HG, would be better "framed" if we could compare him to himself. Him with the mechanics he has versus him with the mechanics HG has. That would be the only true analysis. Ask the catcher to hit by taking his hands to the ball and not rotating from the center. Asking him to abandon his good swing plane.

HG has different athletic abilities than this guy. Could this guy play second base? Could HG catch? Will HG ever hit with the power this hoss can muster? Will the catcher ever hit for the avergage HG might. Those athletic abilities are different. Each has his own genetic potential. Neither will reach it without great mechanics. Maybe the catcher has reached his. Maybe he has maxed out. Maybe he still needs to refine the mechanics some.

I don't believe HG has reached his potential based on the fact that he has some success with less than optimal mechanics (my opinion). Then again, considering what it takes to change, his age, and his level of "muscle memory" it may be his best option to continue on as is.

[jbooth]

The issue is - all variables equal - whether the hitter with good PCR stands a better chance of being successful. I suppose that question is rhetorical as well.

Anyone who wants to get to the top, must always strive for perfection and continuously work on their swing to get it to the best that it can be.

I'm not implying that you should just live with your little flaws just because you are successful, and yes, I believe that a hitter with good PCR stands a better chance than one who does not. However, just having good PCR doesn't guarantee that you will be successful.

Example of 2 hitters;

Hitter "A" has perfect mechanics, and hitter "B" is fundamentally sound, but not perfect, but he has great instincts, reactions and an ability to adjust, where "A" is not quite as good at that.

Off the tee, they will both hit great.

In soft toss, they will both hit great.

In BP you may start to see "B" hit the ball well more consistently, although "A" may whack some harder and farther than "B"

In game situations with a good hard thrower who has 4 pitches, "B" will probably get more hits.

Also, Ted Williams talked about style versus technique. There are more than one way to execute a swing and have it contain the components necessary to hit the ball and hit it hard. SOME (not all), of the Nyman followers seem to think that you have to swing exactly like his swing model, or you will never make it.

Hitters have different physical makeup and mental makeup and skill levels. To develop a good HITTER, not just a good SWINGER, you have to understand how the physics work, and the VARIOUS ways the body can produce the needed physics, so that you can devise a swing STYLE that fits the hitter, so that HE can be successful with HIS sytle, provided that that style still contains the necessary components.

You don't have to put your hands in one exact spot to load, you don't have to have one exact bat angle at load. You don't need one exact knee bend/spine tilt. You don't have to have one exact stride style.

AND, you have to be willing to adjust (let the technique breakdown) in some situations, to get a hit. The goal is to hit the ball, and get on base. They pay you if you can do that, and they don't much give a rats behind how you do it.

Certain things that you do will guarantee that you will fail when you get to the top level, but other things, although not necessarily "by the book", will still allow you to succeed at the top.

When you teach someone, they need to understand what is important and why it is important. They need to understand that they MUST accomplish certain things and do them in a certain sequence, but then you have to let them be athletes, and let them develop through trial and error, under your guidance, a way that THEY can execute the correct fundamentals.

[Ohfor]

Poppeycock.

I couldn't have demonstrated Jim's lack of ability to recognize what works and what does not work any better than his last post.

Let me translate his post...

Jim looks at the back of a baseball card and says....."this guy has a good swing".

Look at the numbers. Wow, he does things right.

He has no abiltiy to distinquish what all the greats are doing.

[jojab]

Ohfor’s analysis has really sparked some interesting discussion. We have Jim Booth explaining to all of us novices that he knows more than Nyman and the rest of us and that just having great mechanics won’t guarantee that the hitter will be able to hit. He even started a thread where he shows us hitters that are hitting HR’s with less than optimal mechanics. Gee, who would have thought that was possible? We have Ursa Major clamoring that Ohfor should use an analysis of a clip to make his point. We even have HG saying that he produces better results than some players with what could be termed better PCR mechanics.

IMO, in the rush to defend our beloved HG, the points Ohfor made in posts 21 & 22 are missed. He never said he didn’t like HG, that HG couldn’t hit, that HG was doomed to fail, etc. All he said was that HG had something going on that was less than the optimal for HG.

I know stills are often times difficult to rely upon in a swing analysis but read what he says here and look at comparison between HG and Pujols (this is the fastball swing of HG’s as that one looked the “best”) (note that their bats are in approximately the same place in these two swings):


“…watch your shoulder rotation stop to allow the arms/hands to take over.

Compare your shoulder rotation to that of Cust..........or Bonds.........or Pujols.........or Manny.

The type of shoulder rotation you see from the other guys is quicker which allows another frame or two of read time. They hit the ball deeper than you do. Their shoulders go to contact ahead of the hands. Yours (shoulders) are behind them (hands). Their body is inside the swing arc. Yours is behind it. Their axis of rotation is like a merry go round's axis. Yours is like gear A turning gear B. Yours is like your hands pushing the merry go round.

Check out Cust's hands and how they are almost "at his rear hip" at launch and they move to the ball with the rear hip. This is the ultimate connection.

This is also a key to both timing and hitting the ball deep.”

Go back and watch the clips very slowly, frame-by-frame. Answer these questions: What is powering the knob of the bat around the corner? Is it being driven from the middle?

[hiddengem]

I think one of the main reasons I stop the rotation of my shoulders and my arms tend to take over is because I cross stride. This comparison between me and pujols displays that to me, and probably me only because I know my swing and where I stepped. Also, the Pujols swing was taken directly from his side, my swing was taken from the end of the dugout toward first base.

My guess is that if I were to have stepped straight in this swing, I would better be able to rotate fully and correctly. This is something I've tried to shake but have a terrible time overcoming, I just don't feel comfortable doing anything different and my performance suffers.

Further, because I cross stride I tend to be pretty closed and anything on the inside, and I feel the need to pull my hands and arms in to get the barrell to the ball.

Is this optimum, obvioulsy not, but my athletic ability has allowed me to "adapt" to this and still have success at a high level.

[jbooth]

Poppeycock.

I couldn't have demonstrated Jim's lack of ability to recognize what works and what does not work any better than his last post.

Let me translate his post...

Jim looks at the back of a baseball card and says....."this guy has a good swing".

Look at the numbers. Wow, he does things right.

He has no abiltiy to distinquish what all the greats are doing.

You must be a real insecure person, and you obviously need to see a shrink, and to top it all off, you don't have much IQ either.

Your translation makes my point. You didn't get the point of the post at all. And whether you think so or not, I know what they do and how they do it and what makes the body move the bat, and the bat move the ball.

I don't look at numbers and assume the guy does it right. But, he must be successful however he's doing it, or he wouldn't have a card to look at. And your statement shows an idiotic thought process. What is "right" and why would "right" with low numbers be better than good numbers, doing what you think is wrong? The goal is to be successful and get good paycheck. It IS possible to do that without necessarily doing it EXACTLY according to what YOU think is "right."

If you don't see a response from me, to any more of your posts, it won't mean I didn't read them, or that I'm afraid to respond, it just means I'm ignoring you, which I did before, and should have continued to do.

Go ahead and talk me and everybody else down, so you can feel good about yourself, I'll just ignore you.

[Ohfor]

You must be a real insecure person, and you obviously need to see a shrink, and to top it all off, you don't have much IQ either.

Your translation makes my point. You didn't get the point of the post at all. And whether you think so or not, I know what they do and how they do it and what makes the body move the bat, and the bat move the ball.

I don't look at numbers and assume the guy does it right. But, he must be successful however he's doing it, or he wouldn't have a card to look at. And your statement shows an idiotic thought process. What is "right" and why would "right" with low numbers be better than good numbers, doing what you think is wrong? The goal is to be successful and get good paycheck. It IS possible to do that without necessarily doing it EXACTLY according to what YOU think is "right."

If you don't see a response from me, to any more of your posts, it won't mean I didn't read them, or that I'm afraid to respond, it just means I'm ignoring you, which I did before, and should have continued to do.

Go ahead and talk me and everybody else down, so you can feel good about yourself, I'll just ignore you.

Who's the one talking who down?

All you can do is offer stupid bull sh*t about the swing. It's required because of the statements you made earlier. Now, your hole is deeper and deeper and deeper. So, instead, to save face, you attack me.

Please talk about the swing plane issue. Or, the shoulders/hands relationship. Or, the rotation from the center.

We'll see who has the IQ on this stuff.

Will you post your clip of rotation where you use the wall while demonstrating? We plebes would like to see the maestro in action.

[dougmac]

I appreiciate that Doug. You know whats funny, our roving hitting instructor is Rob Deer.



David, Rob could run, throw and field well to go along with his tremendous power. He can still take a real good BP and hit balls a long way and is about 43-44 years old now. He is a good guy too that I see in the Instructional league in the fall. Say hi to him next time he is in town. He closed off his stride too, and would take balls and hit them 450 feet, but they would be 20 feet foul. If they moved the foul pole about 20 feet to the left, he would have hit about 400 home runs.:D

[ssarge]

It seems to be that at each step of the pyramid, there are fewer guys doing it differently - or that their degrees of difference (don't know how else to phrase it) are less. Giftedness evens out as the air rarifies, and mechanics become the trump card.

Assuming the validity of the assumption, this argues strongly to me to find the points of commonality (not difference) among those at the top of the pyramid, and attempt to make that the basis point for teaching kids. With that as a foundation, it would seem to me that the next step would be to determine the developmental process that will best accomplish learning those same points of commonality. And determine the cues and communication skills that will best enable a kid to assimilate the instruction.

Which obviously can vary by kid.

Accomplish all of that perfectly, and it's no guarantee. At best, it permits a shortening of the STILL necessary trial-and-error process.

But on the positive side, the simplicity of those points of commonality - and their relative effectiveness - generate some great early results. Which keeps a kid interested, motivated, and being given a continuing opportunity to play.


There are some things I personally have found less than helpful in the process. Regretably - this is not at all directed at David or others here who have played at a high level - the cues / comments of individual high level hitters are among those things I haven't generally had much luck with.

As is obviously demonstrable, most elite hitters don't describe their swing well or acurately. Perfectly natural that they would describe what they FEEL, and they do. But it often doesn't dovetail w/ reality that technoplogy can assist us to view.

Feelings are also individual. And the feelings of a world-class hitter aren't even close to those of a 12 year old just learning.

Finally, there is the challenge of communication. Those listening to the descriptions of elite hitters in order to themselves teach kids take those instructional words at face value. They have no other choice. It is fine to say - as some on this board do - that instructors are all trying to teach the same thing using different words. I DOUBT highly they are all trying to teach the same thing. But absent the "insider" hitting lexicon, folks listening are going to take the words to mean what the words mean in plain English.


HOW a great athlete accomplishes adjustment w/ a less than perfect swing is interesting to me. Understanding HOW the best HITTERS attempt to swing - in order that adjustments need to be less frequent - is VITAL to me. That is the basis point for teaching kids to hit, IMO. For obvious reasons, not the least of which is that adjustments are intuitive and reactive, may vary by hitter, and very difficult to "teach" (as opposed to developing through trial-and-error). But easier on all those levels if the foundation PERMITS the adjustments. Got to learn the foundation first.

Regards,

Scott

[hiddengem]

David, Rob could run, throw and field well to go along with his tremendous power. He can still take a real good BP and hit balls a long way and is about 43-44 years old now. He is a good guy too that I see in the Instructional league in the fall. Say hi to him next time he is in town. He closed off his stride too, and would take balls and hit them 450 feet, but they would be 20 feet foul. If they moved the foul pole about 20 feet to the left, he would have hit about 400 home runs.:D

Did you know of Robby's close call with Death? He had a blood clot in his wrist, that apparantly was pretty serious. He had surgery but still everything isn't right. He's a great guy and we've talking hitting quite a bit this year. Before his surgery I was told he was still impressive with the stick.

I've tried to fix my stride issue and when I step straight, it feels like I'm stepping toward third base and I have no chance on anything middle away. I just feel completely pulled off of everything.

[hiddengem]

Here is another shot of Cust hitting this offseason. No doubt he's got a nice swing.
[/url]

This is also Cust demonstrating why he hits the ball like he does.
[url=http://picsplace.to/] (http://picsplace.to/)

[Ohfor]

What's his history? I've never heard of him until you posted. Where's he from? Sign out of high school? college? position?

Nice swing.

[hiddengem]

From Jersey, 1st Round Pick in or around 99 with the Dbacks out of high school. He's played in the big leagues for the Rockies, Orioles and possibly the Dbacks but not sure. He's an outfielder...used to be brutal out there. Lets put it this way, he has to hit in order to keep his job.

[dougmac]

1st round (30th overall pick) by the D-Backs in 1997. Has been called up by the D-backs in 01, the Rockies in 02 and the Orioles in 03 and 04.

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor said: Calling you intellectually dishonest is name calling? Well, that and "starstuck". (I think you meant starstruck.) Remember that I live in Berkeley, and them's is fighting words in our academic community. Sorta like calling someone a "Hilary Clinton liberal" in your part of Missouri, I'd imagine. The point is that you ascribe motives to others (or charge them with idiocy) for their opinions rather than simply addressing the merits of the opinions.

Pointing out the fact that you write and profess PCR and then talk the opposite when analyzing "a friends" clip is calling you names? Well, that's another problem -- ascribing to others opinions that they've never voiced. As I recall, all I said was that I thought his tilt was fine (as you claim he has no tilt) and his shoulders didn't "stop" (and sure, they slow down as HG agrees, but you were going too far to make your point). That doesn't mean I disagree with the theory of PCR.

Your penchant for hyberbole is another problem in getting to the merits of your opinions. After three swing clips, you seem to profess that HG has "no tilt". Your words. I showed a clip on a lower pitched ball that shows his head and shoulders lower during the course of the swing as he adjusts to the ball -- i.e., since his legs aren't bending, that must mean that his spine is tilting over. (You can use the top of the dugout behind him as a reference point.) That observation is wholly independent of what his arms are doing, so I don't "call extending the arms to reach a low pitch as evidence of tilt," as you think I do. I've conceded that I can't be sure from this vantage, but it seem physically impossible for the lowering of the head to occur without the spine tilting over (as it doesn't look like he just dipped his head). Please tell me what I'm missing here rather than asking me to define my terms and provide a discourse on the advantages of tilting.

If my posts would have been about a 12 year old kid you'd have said "great post". If my post would have been about a high school kid you'd have said "great post". But......it was about a professional hitter who happened to go deep on these swings.Certainly, your points would have more validity as to the swing of a younger hitter. But we were talking about a Triple-A level hitter. So, what's your point?

Anyway, as I said. I'm not here to prove you wrong. I don't learn anything from that. I'd rather get to the meat of what's right about everyone's analyses and learn from it. Perhaps you could benefit from such an attitude. (Jim too!) For example, the shoulder slowing/stopping issue that you raised is a good point, and I perhaps could have elaborated to give you credit for what is a correct observation poorly articulated. It did indeed give rise to a good discussion by HG of his "cross stride" problem.

If we can all calm down a little bit, we might even move the discussion to what seems to be the issue that logically next flows from that observation -- what effect does having the hands continue forward as the shoulders slow or stop in that fashion lend themselves to the Nyman/Mankin fishhook/angular displacement, etc.? Is it good, bad? For what age level? Kid hitters do that all the time to try to maintain bat control and increase their chances of making contact.

[Ohfor]

...what effect does having the hands continue forward as the shoulders slow or stop in that fashion lend themselves to the Nyman/Mankin fishhook/angular displacement, etc.? Is it good, bad? For what age level? Kid hitters do that all the time to try to maintain bat control and increase their chances of making contact.

Wow.

No wonder.

[Ohfor]

After three swing clips, you seem to profess that HG has "no tilt". Your words. I showed a clip on a lower pitched ball that shows his head and shoulders lower during the course of the swing as he adjusts to the ball -- i.e., since his legs aren't bending, that must mean that his spine is tilting over. (You can use the top of the dugout behind him as a reference point.)

Double Wow.

If there was evidence of tilt, the swing plane would match his shoulder turn plane. Or be very close to it throughout most of the swing.

Do you really believe it does?

Honestly?

Does this ring a bell?



He does this to varying degrees in all three clips.

[Ohfor]

...rather than asking me to define my terms

Where?


But we were talking about a Triple-A level hitter. So, what's your point?


Triple wow.

[Ohfor]

...That doesn't mean I disagree with the theory of PCR.

Get with the picture. You write and profess PCR. Yet, a friend is not really PCRing and you say it's ok. Based on the results, I guess.

Then you use the video to say what's not there is.

Two options.

You don't really believe PCR is all that.

Or

You're ignoring your friends deficiencies.

[Ursa Major]

Wow...
Double wow...
Triple wow...
I guess having an adult conversation -- much less an intellectually valuable conversation -- with you is beyond the realm of possibility.

Yet, a friend is not really PCRing and you say it's ok.Please read what I've said several times. I'm not addressing your criticisms of his lack of PCRing except to note that it looks to me like -- in one facet in one swing -- he seems to do it, and to suggest you've gone a little overboard in saying that he never tilts. I'm not throwing him overboard by saying it's okay if he doesn't swing correctly. And I'm not addressing your other criticisms of his "PCRing".

[Ohfor]

...except to note that it looks to me like -- in one facet in one swing -- he seems to do it...

This is exactly what I'm addressing. Maybe a little study time is necessary.

It must be your belief that at or near contact he can suddenly tilt. In 1 or 2 thirtieths of a second. After he's moved his hands forward so that the body is now "outside the arc of the bat". Which means at the point in time when the arms have taken over. Good luck trying that.

I don't believe it's there at all (see above edited post).

I'll wait while you get Jim's message.

[Ohfor]

I guess having an adult conversation -- much less an intellectually valuable conversation -- with you is beyond the realm of possibility.


A good teacher has to meet his student at the student's level.

[jbooth]

No, he's a decent hitting catcher, that tells me all the time he'd love to have my hand speed. I think he's hitting .240 or so. Because he lacks it, good fastballs often beat him. He's a great 5pm hitter however.

He doesn't time pitches better than me, actually worse. Doesn't adjust to locations better than me, actually worse. But his swing is better than mine, rotates from his middle better than me. How can this be?

He's late on fastballs and his quickness isn't optimum because he doesn't get his hips started soon enough and he doesn't effeciently get off his back foot quickly enough. His SWING is good once it gets going (except for hips turning with the shoulders instead of ahead).

[Ohfor]

He's late on fastballs...

You're the best Jim.

See one clip and say he's late on fastballs. Plural.

[Ohfor]

...he doesn't get his hips started soon enough..

Well, well.

IF a hitter swings from his center, it's his hips that initiate the swing.

Are you saying something else starts his swing?.....and that his hips are late in relation to that?

Hmmm.

That would not be swinging from your center.

[jbooth]

I guess having an adult conversation -- much less an intellectually valuable conversation -- with you is beyond the realm of possibility.


Truer words have never been written.

[Ohfor]

Jim

Come on.

Now you're going to have to say you won't respond to me again.

For the third time in two days.:D

I really think you're avoiding the hitting issues you don't yet understand.

[Stealth]

Just curious if any of you who keep bickering back and forth ever played the game of baseball. You guys are bunch of 5 year olds!

Post your opinions and move forward - I get sick and tired of reading your bs, it ruins it for everyone. Get a life!

[fungo22]

And, I think it's fair to say that a professional level ballplayer will have to make (and can make) more adjustments to pitches than will a 12 year old Little Leaguer, so a straight PCR model will have less applicability to him than to the kid hitter. I don't see how the necessity and ability to make more adjustments makes PCR less applicable to professional level hitters. But perhaps I don't undertand what you mean by "applicability."


So, I don't think the question "of whether the hitter with good PCR stands a better chance of being successful" "is rhetorical as well". For a ten year old, I'd guess the answer is a 95% probabability of being "yes". For a major leaguer, the answer is more complicated and likely to apply in a lower percentage of hitters, depending on your definition of "PCR". (E.g., does Ryan Howard hit with PCR, or is he just a big ox?) I really can't believe that you think that a high percentage of hitters have a better chance of being successful without PCR. Unless I have completely misunderstood you, you're saying either that PCR are not qualities of the majority of MLB swings or that these qualities do not factor into the tremendous efficiency of their swings. I observed that raising the issue was rhetorical because I thought PCR was obviously one of the factors that set high-level hitters apart from the rest of the hacking riffraff. If you are denying this, then let's put on the gloves, counselor cause I think things are fixin' to "get just a little bit rowdy." (SSarge, I've got you on this one.)

[hiddengem]

Double Wow.

If there was evidence of tilt, the swing plane would match his shoulder turn plane. Or be very close to it throughout most of the swing.

Do you really believe it does?

Honestly?

Does this ring a bell?

He does this to varying degrees in all three clips.


Richard are you telling me that these 2 swings look the same?
Also, I'm curious as to why you can't have a professional conversation about something, without feeling the need to "Big League" those involved?

[Ursa Major]

Thanks for the reminder, Stealth. I usually try to stay clear of these battles for just this reason, but I thought maybe I could learn if I was missing something about what this "tilt" stuff. It seemed simple -- (1) post clip, (2) ask someone to pinpoint what if anything I wasn't seeing. It didn't work that way for me. Quadruple wow, dude.

Instead, it somehow degenerated into -- "if you don't tell HG that his deficiencies are exactly what I , the king of Central Missouri pocket billiards, say they are, you're guaranteed to lead him into a life of misery, bad swings, and chronic athlete's foot, (or something)." Well, I'm going to back away from the debate -- since it's not going anywhere helpful, as you note. And, I'm not going to try to decipher and debate Ohfor's inconsistent mumblings about HG's swing, as I don't have delusions that I am qualified to offer comprehensive hitting advice to someone who's got the fifth highest slugging percentage on his Triple-A roster.

[hiddengem]

I don't have delusions that I am qualified to offer comprehensive hitting advice to someone who's got the fifth highest slugging percentage on his Triple-A roster.

..........

[jbooth]

Just curious if any of you who keep bickering back and forth ever played the game of baseball. You guys are bunch of 5 year olds!

Post your opinions and move forward - I get sick and tired of reading your bs, it ruins it for everyone. Get a life!

You're right. I let him get me out of control. It won't happen again.

[fungo22]

I don't have delusions that I am qualified to offer comprehensive hitting advice to someone who's got the fifth highest slugging percentage on his Triple-A roster. HG is doing relatively well, but in my opinion this sort of argument should be beneath you, counselor.

I don't particularly care for Ohfor's rhetoric and I'm sometimes confused about his substance (a little too much riddle-me-this for a simple, straight-forward mind like mine), but Ohfor's observations are as valid (or not) as their accuracy (or not) and neither HG's level of play nor his success at that level factor into the equation.

[hiddengem]

...........

[hiddengem]

Good Swing?...This guy had 40 Doubles and 25 jacks the last 2 seasons. Looks like an Arm swinger to me.

[Ursa Major]

Fungo22 said: I really can't believe that you think that a high percentage of hitters have a better chance of being successful without PCR. Unless I have completely misunderstood you, you're saying either that PCR are not qualities of the majority of MLB swings or that these qualities do not factor into the tremendous efficiency of their swings. I observed that raising the issue was rhetorical because I thought PCR was obviously one of the factors that set high-level hitters apart from the rest of the hacking riffraff. If you are denying this, then let's put on the gloves...Yeah, you misunderstood what I meant to say; I perhaps wasn't clear. Lord help us if you're just reading it in the most damning way possible so you could pick a fight.

My point was that a "straight" PCR model might be less applicable to major leaguers than to kids. Kids are not going to see much if any break on the pitches they face, so they only need to adjust for timing (which presumably encompasses adjusting for changes in a pitch's height as it nears the plate, as a slower pitch will drop more). So, they can rely more on a straight PCR model, which doesn't include the little gimmicks for making adjustments based on the greater and more varied break on pitches. Also, they generally do not have the strength to hit the ball with authority by using their arms; many big leaguers do. I brought up Ryan Howard (who HG originally flaunted at me as someone who really cracks the mold) as someone who can regularly hit it out of the park with very little connection and questionable posture.

Also, I've been convinced by others (primarily HG) that good hitters often will depart from PCR - even if their optimal BP swing is a perfect Ohfor wet dream of a PCR swing -- in many if not most of their swings. (Somehow those clips don't seem to get posted here much.) The problem is that the pitch isn't what, where and when you expected it.

You correctly focused on my use of the ambiguous term "applicability" -- i.e., the applicability of PCR to the swings of top level hitters. But questioning PCR's "applicability" to them, I didn't mean that that they completely depart from it, but rather that after a swing is commenced using PCR principles, a MLB hitter can, needs to and will make more adjustments to pitches by what he does with his arms. This refers to some of those "big picture" issues that others are discussing. A younger hitter won't need to adjust so much and is at greater risk of disconnecting too early if he or she tries to -- hence straight PCR principles are more applicable to his or her swings.

I found this great quote that discusses what I mean. The author said:


Hitters at the higher levels have efficient swings which, for the most part, exhibit PCR. We can teach PCR, but some things that hitters at that level do are beyong our ability to teach. Some things depend on strength, some things depend on experience and good instincts, and some things depend on talent and athleticism. If we fail to sufficiently discuss these adjustments, it is because they are beyond our control. We tend to focus on only those things that we can have an influence on. PCR is within that sphere of influence. The other things in addition to PCR are not. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate the "big picture," including adjustments and compensations made by strong and gifted hitters with good instincts.

Oh, wait, That was you. However, I would surmise that high level hitters have a greater ability, skill set and financial incentive to discuss and try to consciously fine tune some of these adjustments with drills and focussed batting practice. HG might consciously try practicing a swing that simulates a circumstance where he read a pitch as a curve ball and then realized it was a slider and had to deal with more horizontal break (and more speed) than first expected; a 12 year old would not. And, of course, basic PCR principles are more engrained in the basic swings of HG and most major leaguers, so those principles may seem less "applicable" to MLB players just because less time need be spent on them relative to the higher level stuff.

Other than that, I'm of course in agreement with you that the basic MLB swing should apply PCR principles and much of the further work a player does should be to try to expand those situations where the adjustment to pitches occurs within the PCR framework rather than just abandoning those principles and arm swinging any time the hitter is just a little bit fooled by the pitch. But, there's room for an Ichiro in MLB ball; I don't see anyone in my son's 12u league succeeding at the top level without primarily using some form of PCR.

[Ursa Major]

Quote:Originally Posted by Ursa Major
I don't have delusions that I am qualified to offer comprehensive hitting advice to someone who's got the fifth highest slugging percentage on his Triple-A roster.
HG is doing relatively well, but in my opinion this sort of argument should be beneath you, counselor.

I don't particularly care for Ohfor's rhetoric and I'm sometimes confused about his substance (a little too much riddle-me-this for a simple, straight-forward mind like mine), but Ohfor's observations are as valid as their accuracy and neither HG's level of play nor his success at that level factor into the equation.Ah, c'mon, let me have a little fun. My primary point was that Ohfor was trying to bait me into trying to either agree or disagree with what he viewed to be a whole panoply of flaws he saw in HG's swing, based on the three clips HG had posted of himself, and if I didn't do so, I was somehow an "enabler". I declined to try to do so, as whatever expertise I have is limited to youngsters. Maybe I was poking some fun at Ohfor; regardless of the merits of Ohfor's observations, he clearly was making hyperbolic, doomsday comments about HG's swing that were not warranted by what little evidence he had in front of him. And he did not elaborate on his conclusions so that we could test them. Many of the other folks here -- HG included -- take these clips and annotate them with diagrams so we can collectively focus on a specific action or event and make our comments with some assurance as to what we're addressing. Ohfor chooses not to do so, but just says things like "I don't believe it's [[i.e. tilt]] there at all" without even referencing something in the pictures. That's not very convincing.

I heartily agree that we should focus on the message and not the messenger. Indeed, I commended Ohfor on bringing up the shoulder rotation issue, even if I thought he'd overstated it, and I brought up some further issues (i.e., the angular displacement/fishhook question) that I thought flowed from what he detected. He chose to ignore it so he could make his childish series of "wow" comments. I guess nothing ruins a good fight like having someone agree with you.

[fungo22]

Yeah, you misunderstood what I meant to say; I perhaps wasn't clear. Lord help us if you're just reading it in the most damning way possible so you could pick a fight. Given my record, I can see why you might suspect that, but I was sincerely unsure of what you were saying.


I brought up Ryan Howard (who HG originally flaunted at me as someone who really cracks the mold) as someone who can regularly hit it out of the park with very little connection and questionable posture. Don't know Ryan. I know Frank.


Also, I've been convinced by others (primarily HG) that good hitters often will depart from PCR - even if their optimal BP swing is a perfect Ohfor wet dream of a PCR swing -- in many if not most of their swings. (Somehow those clips don't seem to get posted here much.) The problem is that the pitch isn't what, where and when you expected it. I've suggested similar things before. I agree that Ohfor's ... uh ... ideal swing is not the norm. However, I believe that most of their swings are more or less approximations of the ideal PCR swing and it is their strenghth, experience, instincts and athleticism that enables them to be successful even when they are forced by good pitching to depart from that ideal. The complete departure from an efficient swing is not the norm, even at the MLB level.

On the other hand, I also believe that many instances in which MLB hitters fail can be attributed to their failure to understand and implement PCR. HG's "big picture" skills will be an asset (as has been pointed out and discussed), but I believe he will be - no, is - a better hitter due in part by a better cognitive understanding, intelligent appreciation and intentional application of PCR principles.

So perhaps there is no substantial disagreement. Perhaps just a different appreciation for whatever reasons.

[fungo22]

regardless of the merits of Ohfor's observations, he clearly was making hyperbolic, doomsday comments about HG's swing that were not warranted by what little evidence he had in front of him. And he did not elaborate on his conclusions so that we could test them. As much as I like Ohfor, I tend to agree with you. One of HG's swings breaks down fairly early, but HG's explanation seems plausible to me and I don't necessarily see a trend. I also don't see the complete absence of tilt that Ohfor sees.

[Ohfor]

Richard are you telling me that these 2 swings look the same?
Also, I'm curious as to why you can't have a professional conversation about something, without feeling the need to "Big League" those involved?




As I said, each of your swings show varying degrees of that animation.

The clip you've added is more difficult to see the swing plane difference. But, it's there and it occurs when your shoulders slow/stop rotating to allow your hands to get in front. the relationship between the hands and the shoulders of the big hitters is different than yours.

As far as big leagueing people, I will call anyone who lays claim to things that aren't supported by video. I suggested reasons why they are doing it. One, they are too close to you to be objective. Two, they really don't understand PCR yet. At this point, it has to be one of the two.

I think it's good for everyone that we stay on a truth path.

jojabs picture sums it up very well.



HG reaches this position first in each of the clips (to varying degrees) then rotates. Pujols does not do this. His rear shoulder leads the rotation, not his hands. Leads in time, not space. If it wasn't in every swing I'd write it off as "adjustment". At this time it appears to be everywhere.

[Ohfor]

...And, I'm not going to try to decipher and debate Ohfor's inconsistent mumblings about HG's swing,

Inconsistent? I've made the same two or three points since the clips were posted. Your understanding is what is inconsistent....or nonexistent.


as I don't have delusions that I am qualified to offer comprehensive hitting advice to someone who's got the fifth highest slugging percentage on his Triple-A roster.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Ohfor]

... Ohfor chooses not to do so, but just says things like "I don't believe it's [[i.e. tilt]] there at all" without even referencing something in the pictures. That's not very convincing.

I heartily agree that we should focus on the message and not the messenger. Indeed, I commended Ohfor on bringing up the shoulder rotation issue, even if I thought he'd overstated it, and I brought up some further issues (i.e., the angular displacement/fishhook question) that I thought flowed from what he detected. He chose to ignore it so he could make his childish series of "wow" comments. I guess nothing ruins a good fight like having someone agree with you.

I assume you would tell your criminal clients to not say anything as it can and will be used against them.

I suggest that is good advice for you.

I have addressed what you say isn't addressed several times. This is the type of stuff that leads to "your hard feelings". You either won't read what is said or don't understand it and then get mad at me for your shortcomings.

You wanted an argument. You got one. And you now wish you hadn't.

[dougmac]

Inconsistent? I've made the same two or three points since the clips were posted. Your understanding is what is inconsistent....or nonexistent.



Exactly. Thank you.


I have to agree with Richard on one point......I have bantered with him for a few years, and the one thing he is not is.....INCONSISTANT. I have disagreed with him many times, but the guy is very consistant in what he writes.

[tom.guerry]

consistently wrong

[jojab]

consistently wrong

Thanks for not posting the normal long posts #1, #2 or #3. I thought with the U.S. Open just around the corner we might get the golf-based post comparing HG's swing to Michelle Wie's.

[hiddengem]

The clip you've added is more difficult to see the swing plane difference. But, it's there and it occurs when your shoulders slow/stop rotating to allow your hands to get in front. the relationship between the hands and the shoulders of the big hitters is different than yours.

Well, I think we already know that. But to post a clip of a skeleton swinging down to the ground with his hands while rotating with level shoulders and saying that I do that in varying degrees is asinine and detreimental your followers on this board. Anybody with a decent pair of eyes can look at all three swings and tell that my shoulders are tilted over the plate when I swing to varying degrees depening on pitch location.


As far as big leagueing people You are the ultimate "Big Leaguer" and it has nothing to do with calling somebody on anything.





HG reaches this position first in each of the clips (to varying degrees) then rotates. Pujols does not do this. His rear shoulder leads the rotation, not his hands. Leads in time, not space. If it wasn't in every swing I'd write it off as "adjustment". At this time it appears to be everywhere.


I've already offered an explanation for this.

[hiddengem]

"Again I would argue that these "bad swing " HR's are many times an example of good enough biomechanics and underlying functional fitness specific to hitting[they are still generating force very quickly/ powerfully ,they are still managing to create good momentum transfer even though it is not optimum performance] . And it is this combination that allows for the ability to get the job done -----without having to be absolutely perfect in terms of biomechanical perfection."

steve E.

[Mark H]

consistently wrong

As Steve often points out, life is nothing if not ironic.

[Ohfor]

... Anybody with a decent pair of eyes can look at all three swings and tell that my shoulders are tilted over the plate when I swing to varying degrees depening on pitch location.

I highly disagree.

The picture with Pujols demonstrates it.

If you have the proper tilt your arms won't/can't get to the position yours do...........in every clip posted.

[Ohfor]

I've already offered an explanation for this.

You've closed your stance and this is a result. I believe that is the explanation you offered. And, you said when you stand square, you feel open and unable to swing properly. I can relate. At my level I suffered the same problem.

If that is your fix. Fine. But, don't tell me your tilt is proper. It can't be with a closed off stance.

Sorry to see you take my dispute with your friends personal.

The only people I can big league are those kinds of people. The people who ignore video. And, as long as they ignore video and post junk, I'll big league them.

[swingbuster]

when you stand square, you feel open and unable to swing properly

Great point..people that have to get closed to get their hands back do not load properly.

They use the closed stance to set their hands inside the target line. It is a counterfeit move at set up to make up for their poor dynamic loading action.

The number one set up problem in high handicap golfers and number one set up problem in LL baseball players.

I am not surprised given Ofhers understanding of loading that he does set up closed.

[LClifton]

I think one of the main reasons I stop the rotation of my shoulders and my arms tend to take over is because I cross stride.
Extremely candid.
Do you think it is, in a subconscious way, an attempt to hit the ball opposite field, and that this is how your body goes about accomplishing that?
One more question, while I agree with the benefit of strong hands,
do you think that this "cross stride" might enhance your feeling of needing stronger hands?



My guess is that if I were to have stepped straight in this swing, I would better be able to rotate fully and correctly. This is something I've tried to shake but have a terrible time overcoming, I just don't feel comfortable doing anything different and my performance suffers.
I can understand fully what you are saying here. Do I dare use a golf analogy?
A golfer that lines up in a closed stance (in your case, strides to one) will feel (when he squares up his stance)that he is going to pull the ball off the edge of the earth, left. So there is a compensation made with his swing. Instead of rotating hard thru the ball he "pushes" the club out to the right because his brain tells him he is too far left.
In your case, (total speculation here) if you try to correct your stride, you could run the risk of striding across even more??? (at first) Maybe due to the message the brain is sending to the body-------- "This is not right."
By the way I'm not saying you are pushing, rather,you may not be rotating as hard thru as your body is capable.
My personal opinion is, that if this "cross striding" issue is cured, even slightly, your connection and rotation will be the improved by products.
Not easy, but attainable to some degree.

Is this optimum, obvioulsy not, but my athletic ability has allowed me to "adapt" to this and still have success at a high level.
Yup, and I believe that it is the same athletic ability that will allow you to make the correction.

Last thought, I don't want to offer an opinion on the correction, because I don't have one. Other than to say, think about when you first began a better vertical load, probably felt strange at first, couldn't take it to the game, initially, but continued to work on it in BP.???

Sincerely,
LClifton

[hiddengem]

I'll big league them.


"You have fungus on your shower shoes, when you get 10yrs in the show the press will think you're colorful, until then, you're a slob"

-Crash Davis to OHFOR-

[hiddengem]

Extremely candid.
Do you think it is, in a subconscious way, an attempt to hit the ball opposite field, and that this is how your body goes about accomplishing that?

What I found was that I crushed pitches inside early in my career, and they caught on and started pounding me away. I struggled handling it, so I developed a cross stride to stay on that pitch.


One more question, while I agree with the benefit of strong hands,
do you think that this "cross stride" might enhance your feeling of needing stronger hands?

Possibly.




By the way I'm not saying you are pushing, rather,you may not be rotating as hard thru as your body is capable.

I think this is probably the closest evaluation, yet.


My personal opinion is, that if this "cross striding" issue is cured, even slightly, your connection and rotation will be the improved by products.
Totally agree.


Yup, and I believe that it is the same athletic ability that will allow you to make the correction.
lets hope so



Last thought, I don't want to offer an opinion on the correction, because I don't have one. Other than to say, think about when you first began a better vertical load, probably felt strange at first, couldn't take it to the game, initially, but continued to work on it in BP.???
Its deffinetly a work in progress

[Stealth]

"You have fungus on your shower shoes, when you get 10yrs in the show the press will think you're colorful, until then, you're a slob"

That is one of the best lines ever!

The more I watch espn and the homeruns hit each day you realize how many of them are hit without an ideal swing put on them. That's why they are in the show, truly amazing athletes!

[hiddengem]

And, you said when you stand square, you feel open and unable to swing properly.


Not that I'm unable to swing properly, I feel like I"m unable to handle pitches middle away.

[Ohfor]

Here are the frames from each clip where Loren suggests that you aren't rotating as well as you can.

The hands move independently a much greater distance than the rear shoulder.

I called it pushing your hands in front of the rotation. Getting the body "outside" the rotation instead leaving it "inside" the rotation. Pushing the merry go round with your arms instead of turning it from the center axis. And, by pushing it with the arms, of course the shoulder turn helps. But the arms are out of position.

Shoulder turn is not powering these swings from the beginning. First the hand movement, then the shoulder turn. The time it takes to get the hands in the position he wants is valuable. 2 frames worth of read time is valuable. Leave the hands back, power the swing with rotation, hit the ball deeper in the zone = more read time, better ability to handle middle out.

The animation I submitted earlier shows the same thing. You keyed in on the hand and arm extension. But, the shoulder area, is what I was referring to. How the animation shows the hitters hands moving in front of the shoulder before rotation.

[hiddengem]

Here are the frames from each clip where Loren suggests that you aren't rotating as well as you can.

I called it pushing your hands in front of the rotation. Getting the body "outside" the rotation instead leaving it "inside" the rotation. Pushing the merry go round with your arms instead of turning it from the center axis. And, by pushing it with the arms, of course the shoulder turn helps. But the arms are out of position.
The Second one looks the best, to me as far as connection to the shoulders.
If I wasn't cross strided in these swings, I wouldn't feel the need to push it with the arms to get the barrell back to the ball on a pitch middle in.

[Ohfor]

Watch the relationship between young Bonds' hands and shoulders.

The hands stay back and are powered forward by the shoulders. Then, adjustments are made to location.

Hold the hands in...

Let the hands out...

But if the hands are moving first you can't adjust later.

[Ohfor]

Another good view...

[paul5150]

i love bond's swing.

[hiddengem]

Watch the relationship between young Bonds' hands and shoulders.

The hands stay back and are powered forward by the shoulders. Then, adjustments are made to location.

Hold the hands in...

Let the hands out...

But if the hands are moving first you can't adjust later.

Its much easier to do this when you step straight and free yourself up.

[Ohfor]

The pertinent frame(s) (similar to jojabs comparison to Pujols)





The degree of shoulder turn when the bat is at lag.

[hiddengem]

The pertinent frame(s) (similar to jojabs comparison to Pujols)





The degree of shoulder turn when the bat is at lag.


Ok, now take this same still of Bonds, and move his front foot 6-8 inches closer to home plate. Whats that going to do?, close his shoulders up so that he's not rotated as much, and its going to force him to push his hands through in order to get to that specific pitch.

[Ohfor]

I don't doubt your stance (launch position) is hurting you.

I'm not sure that's all that is there.

I would be pleased if it is.

I think a new movement from somewhere other than the hands to launch the swing may be needed.

The only way I can make my video look like the good stuff is to "leave the bat back" while I rotate. And I have to be very aggressive with my shoulders to make sure they lead the hands. I have to consciously think, make the shoulders move the bat not the hands. Make it feel like my rear shoulder will push the handle of the bat. If I've pulled the hands forward, I can't feel that. Only if I leave them back can I get that feeling. If I don't, they get in front.

That may just be me.

[Ursa Major]

Fungo22 said: I agree that Ohfor's ... uh ... ideal swing is not the norm. However, I believe that most of their swings are more or less approximations of the ideal PCR swing and it is their strenghth, experience, instincts and athleticism that enables them to be successful even when they are forced by good pitching to depart from that ideal. The complete departure from an efficient swing is not the norm, even at the MLB level.

On the other hand, I also believe that many instances in which MLB hitters fail can be attributed to their failure to understand and implement PCR. HG's "big picture" skills will be an asset (as has been pointed out and discussed), but I believe he will be - no, is - a better hitter due in part by a better cognitive understanding, intelligent appreciation and intentional application of PCR principles. I agree. It would be interesting to take three MLB hitters of varying skill levels -- say a Pujols at level 1, a Steve Finley at level 2, and a Rafeal Furcal at level 3 (or whatever -- I'm just reaching here) -- and rate each of their swings over an extended period (say, two months) on a 1 to 5 scale based on what we'd agree would be good mechanics, and then chart the result of each of those swings. What would be interesting would be to assess the correlation between good swings and good results for each of the hitters.
So perhaps there is no substantial disagreement. Perhaps just a different appreciation for whatever reasons. I don't disagree. Just noting exceptions, as have others. Another potentially interesting chore would be to list those successful hitters who we all agree are non-PCR types and try to determine how it is that they get away with it. Raw strength? Astonishing hand-eye coordination and discipline, like Ichiro?

[Ohfor]

Can I disagree without hurting your feelings?

Why is Ichiro not PCR?

[dougmac]

"Again I would argue that these "bad swing " HR's are many times an example of good enough biomechanics and underlying functional fitness specific to hitting[they are still generating force very quickly/ powerfully ,they are still managing to create good momentum transfer even though it is not optimum performance] . And it is this combination that allows for the ability to get the job done -----without having to be absolutely perfect in terms of biomechanical perfection."

steve E.


At the level that David has reached, it is mostly about ability. People got all over J Booth when he posted clips of Eric Burns and Vlad taking awkward hacks and still hitting home runs. With talented guys, that happens a lot. I can post clips of kids with real nice swings who can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. In all the hitting forums, most of the people who post clips use Bonds and in the last year or so they use Pujols. Great, but Bonds and Pujols have two different swings. Hell, the best hitter in the decade of the 90's was Frank Thomas and I don't see anyone trying to emulate his swing ever. Guys stride, rotate and then rip at the ball and try and hit it hard. There is no perfect way.........we can show clips of Bonds and show how he does it, but not many kids will be able to copy him. We could use clips of Frank Thomas and all the gurus would scream or just go into hiding, because they don't know, understand, or can figure out what he is doing.

The clips of the little kids being cloned with their no stride, no load swings being passed off as learning how to rotate makes me sick. Have them watch the games on TV and encourage them (don't show them because you will screw them up) to copy the big leaguers of their choice. Then go outside and throw them BP and try to stay out of their way.

David is a good player, because this past week end I found out a few things about him. A good friend who scouts in LA brought his name up. He said that David was a field rat as a kid much like Mike Lieberthal. They played on every scout team that would let them and just played baseball all the time. He can play about 5 different positions at the pro level and is a good hitter too.

Trying to fix his swing after looking at a couple of clips is wrong. Nobody is qualified to do that and I hope David does not pay any attention. I have an old saying that all the gurus hate.......who have you taught and where are they at??? If they are not at David's level, then I will take a pass on the teacher.

[jojab]

People got all over J Booth when he posted clips of Eric Burns and Vlad taking awkward hacks and still hitting home runs.


They did? Where?



With talented guys, that happens a lot. I can post clips of kids with real nice swings who can't hit water if they fell out of a boat.


Hmm...I thought that is about how everyone did respond?


In all the hitting forums, most of the people who post clips use Bonds and in the last year or so they use Pujols. Great, but Bonds and Pujols have two different swings. Hell, the best hitter in the decade of the 90's was Frank Thomas and I don't see anyone trying to emulate his swing ever.

I only have one clip of Thomas in my collection. I have far more of Bonds and Pujols so I use them. In my one clip of Thomas he PCR's so I'd have no problem using him either.


Guys stride, rotate and then rip at the ball and try and hit it hard. There is no perfect way.........we can show clips of Bonds and show how he does it, but not many kids will be able to copy him. We could use clips of Frank Thomas and all the gurus would scream or just go into hiding, because they don't know, understand, or can figure out what he is doing.


Meaning they PCR. There may be more than one way to PCR but at its core, high-level hitters PCR.


The clips of the little kids being cloned with their no stride, no load swings being passed off as learning how to rotate makes me sick. Have them watch the games on TV and encourage them (don't show them because you will screw them up) to copy the big leaguers of their choice. Then go outside and throw them BP and try to stay out of their way.


That just comes from working with younger, less talented kids. I'll defer to Ssarge on this as he has previously explained why we take this approach with younger kids. It is not an approach we'd take with someone you were about to sign in the draft.



David is a good player, because this past week end I found out a few things about him. A good friend who scouts in LA brought his name up. He said that David was a field rat as a kid much like Mike Lieberthal. They played on every scout team that would let them and just played baseball all the time. He can play about 5 different positions at the pro level and is a good hitter too.

Trying to fix his swing after looking at a couple of clips is wrong. Nobody is qualified to do that and I hope David does not pay any attention. I have an old saying that all the gurus hate.......who have you taught and where are they at??? If they are not at Divid's level, then I will take a pass on the teacher.

David can make his own mind up on what to listen to. He can read the comments and look at the video clips. From everything I know about David, he is a very intelligent person. If he can get something out of Ohfor's comments and make an improvement in his swing, then why not? In addition to being a field rat, David is also an internet board rat. I guess doing this stuff and talking about this stuff is just part of who he is. :D

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor, actually, I was just posting to commend you for posting the portion of those three HG swings that show HG's hands moving forward just ahead of his rear shoulder. Very, very helpful to us (and hopefully HG) to isolate that movement. Anything as obvious that you can use to show us he's not swinging from the middle?

Can I disagree without hurting your feelings? Why is Ichiro not PCR?Don't worry about hurting my feelings. It's been attempted by the best.... In answer to your question, well, except on rare occasions, there's no P, almost no C, and damn little R.

I just looked for the first clip of him that I could find, and found this one of him hitting a triple here (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=499213&w=2006/open/tp/archive06/060306_kcasea_ichiro_triple_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2006/06/03/kcamlb-seamlb-1&mid=200606041487498&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp350&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&murl=) -- I think it's apparent.

On the other hand, here's an interesting clip of him where he'd been hit in the back by a Cleveland pitcher last year and came back the next day for a little payback, hitting two home runs. Here's his swing on one of them, and it almost looks conventional:
It's reminiscent of the story told about Ty Cobb when everyone got also excited about Ruth's home runs; as the story goes, Cobb said, "I could do that if I wanted to", and went out and hit two home runs in his next game to prove it.




Here are

[TrojanSkipper]

The clips of the little kids being cloned with their no stride, no load swings being passed off as learning how to rotate makes me sick. Have them watch the games on TV and encourage them (don't show them because you will screw them up) to copy the big leaguers of their choice. Then go outside and throw them BP and try to stay out of their way.

DougMac: Amen brother. This spinning and swinging for the moon is baloney.

Gem: Good luck and keep it going... I love getting all your input here.

hopefully i didn't screw this up when i tried to copy the quote... got drilled in the shin today by an 11 yr old (city park and no L-shape in sight, my brain could be impaired) One more thought, all this high tech stuff is pretty cool but "take two and hit to right" still ain't far off the mark is it fellas! good night.

[ssarge]

The clips of the little kids being cloned with their no stride, no load swings being passed off as learning how to rotate makes me sick. Have them watch the games on TV and encourage them (don't show them because you will screw them up) to copy the big leaguers of their choice. Then go outside and throw them BP and try to stay out of their way.
And if they are female hitters, be certain to accomplish all of this by the time they are 13 and facing reaction time windows equivalent to those faced by an MLB hitter (0.4 - 0.45 seconds). NOT a similar challenge, but similar reaction time. And who, by the way, if unable to hit reasonably effectively in that environment probably won't be given the opportunity to play when they are 15. And by effectively, I mean hitting for reasonable power with a fence that is the same distance as in college. When they are in Jr. High. That is the reality of the female FP "A" environment.




That just comes from working with younger, less talented kids. I'll defer to Ssarge on this as he has previously explained why we take this approach with younger kids. It is not an approach we'd take with someone you were about to sign in the draft.
Well, I don't want to make anyone sick.

There are very few kids I'm working with now (out of about 20) who are no-stride. Mainly because most of the kids I am working with have by now learned to rotate reasonably efficiently, and are now moving to incorporate a stride. Including my daughter. And these hitters are generally passing their peers who have been striders all along, but never learned to rotate. Seriously.


Seasons and teams change, and as we lose some of the older players on our team (all seven of our Seniors are committed to a college and will be playing there), we'll attract other players - typically younger. And I might very well start them w/ no stride. Because it works to first learn to rotate efficiently, and then to add a stride.

At least it works for me.

I do think that teaching kids to hit is a different skill set than observing kids hitting and judging their ability, but perhaps others feel differently. In my experience of teaching kids to hit, the developmental sequence described above seems to work pretty well. Best I've found yet, anyway, for teaching "regular" kids - not super athletically gifted kids, necessarily - how to hit.

Regards,

Scott

[Mark H]

Have them watch the games on TV and encourage them (don't show them because you will screw them up) to copy the big leaguers of their choice. Then go outside and throw them BP and try to stay out of their way.

.

We all view things through the prism of our own experience. Your method works great with some kids. Probably most of the kids/young men in your world would fall into this group. What about those who are not as strong in this ability to mimic and solve movement problems on their own? This would probably be most kids. It's one thing to tell'em all to get after it and then have your ability to spot the best ones and move on. It's another to be dad to a kid with modest athletic gifts who wants to make the most of what he's got and yet it's not working. I like seeing kids get better. Whether they make it to college or just make their LL all star team, I like helping a hard working good kid get a little better. Is emulation along with trial and error a huge part of that? Sure. But if you show them as close as you can where the path is, that trial and error may be sped up enough that the less kinesthetically gifted kid figures it out before he graduates.

[chesspirate]

I just wanted to comment on the Ty Cobb story, since that is one of my favorite little pieces of info to bust out on unsuspecting people; actually in the first game after that interview he hit 3 home runs and then went out and hit 2 the next day.

[dougmac]

Mark, Actually I agree with much of what you just wrote, but not all of it. My world when I help kids is not much different than yours. I will help the kids at the local high school where my oldest son is the pitching coach. I will help the pitchers a little and when the hitters want some help, I will do that too.Most of them have very modest ability and are playing at the highest level that they will get to. What bothers me is to see clips of kids and then see clips of the same kids two years later doing the same drill and looking the same as they did two years ago.

The reason I said showing them will screw them up is that if you show them, they will try and emulate the person doing the showing. If it is a guy like Steve, then that would be great as they would be watching a guy with real good actions. If it is the average Dad, the kid will be emulating someone who should not be emulated. Having your kids watch big league games on TV and then throwing them BP will (IMO) accomplish a heck of a lot more.

If you want lessons from a good teacher, then get a guy like Steve to teach them. Trying to teach something that you have never done and/or can't do will not get the kids on the right path to improving their hitting skills.

Sarge, I can't comment on girls softball players, because I don't watch the game. No disrespect, I just don't have any interest in it.

[Ursa Major]

SSarge said: Mainly because most of the kids I am working with have by now learned to rotate reasonably efficiently, and are now moving to incorporate a stride. Including my daughter. And these hitters are generally passing their peers who have been striders all along, but never learned to rotate. Seriously.Scott, how is your daughter doing? We haven't heard anything since you posted the clips of her HR and double. Would like to see how it's going with her.

Hope you get a chance to get up to Sacto this weekend, as HG and the Beavers are coming back to town. Unfortunately (well, not really), it looks like Ursa Minor's team is going to the semifinals of his league's tourney (in large part thanks to his single Sunday against one of the league's best pitchers due to a nice bit of tilting), so we won't be able to make it up for those games. Raley Field, home of the Rivercats, is an awesome little ballpark, and it's easy to get to as it's just off I-80 on the West Side of Sacramento.

[Ohioteamz]

The reason I said showing them will screw them up is that if you show them, they will try and emulate the person doing the showing. If it is a guy like Steve, then that would be great as they would be watching a guy with real good actions. If it is the average Dad, the kid will be emulating someone who should not be emulated. Having your kids watch big league games on TV and then throwing them BP will (IMO) accomplish a heck of a lot more.

If you want lessons from a good teacher, then get a guy like Steve to teach them. Trying to teach something that you have never done and/or can't do will not get the kids on the right path to improving their hitting skills.


Although I value your input, and would gladly do lessons with a good PCR instructor like Steve (don't know any in SD), I disagree with your point. Have you seen clips of ohfor's kid at 15?

I don't know about anyone else around here, but I spent a good deal of time attempting to understand and digest the info on setpro. Now is is purely anecdotal, however, I am only 37, and plan to do everything alongside the kids. I need to lose a bunch of weight (6'1" 265), however I can now walk into whatever the fastest cage is and hit pretty damn well. Of course this has no application to the real world, but in HS with my linear, level swing, I was a contact hitter against the fast machine, and practically had to guess against live pitchers that had any velocity. Granted I wasn't D-1 talent, but as an athlete I was certainly above average, but not all-state, particularly in basketball, as a PG in basketball. Again nothing special, but certainly fast, good contact, hit for average, etc, but not draft level talent.

Now how is it that as a totally out of shape tub of goo, I can easily do something that I couldn't do before when I practiced all the time? Sure I am stronger, but I am not quicker in any way shape or form considering the extra 100 lbs. yet, my bat quickness is much better?

Or is it that I've learned better mechanics and how to move more efficiently?

When we long toss, we do it together. Batting cage, we do it together. Filming clips, mine get filmed too. Maybe if I get on the weight loss plan, I'll post some, but the point is, the kids have more fun seeing me point out, when I have failed to rotate properly or exhibit disconnection.

[hiddengem]

David is a good player, because this past week end I found out a few things about him. A good friend who scouts in LA brought his name up. He said that David was a field rat as a kid much like Mike Lieberthal. They played on every scout team that would let them and just played baseball all the time. He can play about 5 different positions at the pro level and is a good hitter too.

Must have been Doug Doeutch(sp). Great guy and you'll always know when he's around, just listen:D Tell him hello for me, and thank him for all he did for me. I've tried to make him proud.


Trying to fix his swing after looking at a couple of clips is wrong. Nobody is qualified to do that and I hope David does not pay any attention.

Doug, I certainly pick my spots, thats forsure. I've been talking to Termel Sledge quite a bit lately. I'm sure you scouted him at Long Beach. He is really good at creating drag with his bat in order to get that great whip you see in a swing like Pujols. He thinks about violently firing his back hip to get that winding action with his torso and the bat flys through the zone late.

The one thing I finally figured out tonight is the whole "Merry go round" analogy. What they are saying is true, and I must have some pretty dam strong hands and arms to do what I do. Some guys on this team call me "easy pop". But I now understand that I power "my" merry- go- round with my arms to get my torso going. And the hitters that they show around here use their stomach and oblique muscles to get it going.

So in BP today I was really thinking about using my mid section to get the rotation going, and tried to just keep my hands at my rear shoulder. What I found was that I crushed everything to right field and felt like I was leaving my hands way behind. Not sure what it looked like, I'll try and get some video when I get home. I'll work on it in BP, see where it goes from there and hopefully its something that when doen enough times will just become the way I do it. Stay tuned.

[Mark H]

Doug,

I agree. That's why I spread the word about Steve.

[dougmac]

Although I value your input, and would gladly do lessons with a good PCR instructor like Steve (don't know any in SD), I disagree with your point. Have you seen clips of ohfor's kid at 15?

I don't know about anyone else around here, but I spent a good deal of time attempting to understand and digest the info on setpro. Now is is purely anecdotal, however, I am only 37, and plan to do everything alongside the kids. I need to lose a bunch of weight (6'1" 265), however I can now walk into whatever the fastest cage is and hit pretty damn well. Of course this has no application to the real world, but in HS with my linear, level swing, I was a contact hitter against the fast machine, and practically had to guess against live pitchers that had any velocity. Granted I wasn't D-1 talent, but as an athlete I was certainly above average, but not all-state, particularly in basketball, as a PG in basketball. Again nothing special, but certainly fast, good contact, hit for average, etc, but not draft level talent.

Now how is it that as a totally out of shape tub of goo, I can easily do something that I couldn't do before when I practiced all the time? Sure I am stronger, but I am not quicker in any way shape or form considering the extra 100 lbs. yet, my bat quickness is much better?

Or is it that I've learned better mechanics and how to move more efficiently?

When we long toss, we do it together. Batting cage, we do it together. Filming clips, mine get filmed too. Maybe if I get on the weight loss plan, I'll post some, but the point is, the kids have more fun seeing me point out, when I have failed to rotate properly or exhibit disconnection.


Send me some clips of your swing against the machine.

[tominct]

Doug,

I agree. That's why I spread the word about Steve.


So, I have Steve's DVDs and I'm studying them diligently, so therefore I am on the right page?

Tom

[GFK]

...The reason I said showing them will screw them up is that if you show them, they will try and emulate the person doing the showing. If it is a guy like Steve, then that would be great as they would be watching a guy with real good actions. If it is the average Dad, the kid will be emulating someone who should not be emulated. Having your kids watch big league games on TV and then throwing them BP will (IMO) accomplish a heck of a lot more.

I figured this out after looking at some video of my swing. I have a good idea of how a proper swing is performed but I can not physically duplicate it. My sons make better progress when I use video of MLB Players as models instead of my swing demonstrations. That and every now and then I will hit on a cue that will give one of them the proper mental cue to perform the correct action.

[ssarge]

Scott, how is your daughter doing? We haven't heard anything since you posted the clips of her HR and double. Would like to see how it's going with her.

Hope you get a chance to get up to Sacto this weekend, as HG and the Beavers are coming back to town. Unfortunately (well, not really), it looks like Ursa Minor's team is going to the semifinals of his league's tourney (in large part thanks to his single Sunday against one of the league's best pitchers due to a nice bit of tilting), so we won't be able to make it up for those games. Raley Field, home of the Rivercats, is an awesome little ballpark, and it's easy to get to as it's just off I-80 on the West Side of Sacramento.

Nice of you to ask, Ursa, thanks.

She is doing pretty well. I personally found high school ball a struggle, because the pitching is so bad compared to Club Ball that it's. . .well, good. Hard for hitters to wait, etc. Plus we were working hard on a couple of major swing changes including adding a stride.

But she did OK, made All-League in a 10 team league (at SS, which she ISN'T, but was the best we had on our team and was thrust into the role).

Club ball has started, and we are facing very good 18Gold pitching. 13 games over the past couple weekends, and she is hitting well, w/ real good power. We played with 275' fences (instead of the usual 100') at Louis Park in Stockton the past couple of weeks, so no HRs, but she did have a couple of triples and a couple of doubles on balls to the fence, and did hit a ball about 260' last Sunday. It was a screwball that probably would have hit her if she hadn't connected, and it was well foul. But very long. Overall, I've been pleased.

The added stride is getting comfortable for her now, and she is creating good momentum into rotation.


Unfortunately, we're not around this weekend. We are at a Showcase in Las Vegas. One of the bigger ones, with maybe 150 college coaches. Since she is finishing up her Sophomore year, it's not real important for her - other than gaining experience for next year when it is important - but the whole team is playing. Do very much appreciate the invitation, though. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to see David play sometimne this summer. Crazy on the weekends, though. Qualifying for Gold Nationals is now starting, which would be a real reach for our team, but you have to try. SoCal next week, actually near home (Sacramento) the following week, then Oklahoma and Vancouver, then back to SoCal.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Sarge, I can't comment on girls softball players, because I don't watch the game. No disrespect, I just don't have any interest in it.

Totally understand, Doug. I'd almost certainly feel the same way if my daughter wasn't involved. Once you et in it though, its as exciting as anything else. And hitters face the same challenges.

I am pleased that MLB is a sponsor of National Pro Fastpitch (the major female pro league). I realize it is simply a marketing decision, but still nice of BB to lend their name.

Best regards,

Scott

[fungo22]

Doug, I certainly pick my spots, thats forsure. I've been talking to Termel Sledge quite a bit lately. I'm sure you scouted him at Long Beach. He is really good at creating drag with his bat in order to get that great whip you see in a swing like Pujols. He thinks about violently firing his back hip to get that winding action with his torso and the bat flys through the zone late. Steve calls this "hinge angle" and "hook."


The one thing I finally figured out tonight is the whole "Merry go round" analogy. What they are saying is true, and I must have some pretty dam strong hands and arms to do what I do. Some guys on this team call me "easy pop". But I now understand that I power "my" merry- go- round with my arms to get my torso going. And the hitters that they show around here use their stomach and oblique muscles to get it going.

So in BP today I was really thinking about using my mid section to get the rotation going, and tried to just keep my hands at my rear shoulder. What I found was that I crushed everything to right field and felt like I was leaving my hands way behind. Not sure what it looked like, I'll try and get some video when I get home. I'll work on it in BP, see where it goes from there and hopefully its something that when doen enough times will just become the way I do it. Stay tuned. This is unspeakably impressive, in my opinion.


Scott, you haven't identified the origin of my quote.

[Mark H]

So, I have Steve's DVDs and I'm studying them diligently, so therefore I am on the right page?

Tom

Everything I understand says yes. Of course get in front of him personally if at all possible.

[Mark H]

Since she is finishing up her Sophomore year, it's not real important for her - other than gaining experience for next year when it is important
Scott

I think that's changed. I see the college coaches making verbal commitments earlier and earlier and they are honoring those commitments from what I hear. Talk to Aradi and see what she says but more and more schools are scrambling for the talent in fp and getting the inside track early is how the coaches are competing in some/many cases.

[Mark H]

Sarge, I can't comment on girls softball players, because I don't watch the game. No disrespect, I just don't have any interest in it.

Just judge them exactly as you would a male baseball prospect.

[dougmac]

In baseball, coaches can't talk to a player until July 1st following their Junior year. Scholarships can't be signed until Nov of their senior year during a one week period. Coaches try to get verbals from players, but a verbal does not have any hold on a player. The player can change their mind and go in a different direction.

[Ohfor]

DMac

Did your team draft that hitter you posted a few weeks ago?

[wogdoggy]

He is really good at creating drag with his bat in order to get that great whip you see in a swing like Pujols


this is where i get confused..with pcr,we are totally connected to our torso.there should be NO bat drag if done correctly...CORRECT????

yet with dixon approach we have torso ahead of hands,,which would create whip??? isnt whip a form of bat drag?How can you create drag id we are rotating properly???

[Mark H]

In baseball, coaches can't talk to a player until July 1st following their Junior year. Scholarships can't be signed until Nov of their senior year during a one week period. Coaches try to get verbals from players, but a verbal does not have any hold on a player. The player can change their mind and go in a different direction.

In fp, and I suspect bb too, the coach can talk to them earlier IF they call the coach themselves or visit campus on their own nickel. The early verbals are all the rage now in D1 fp from what I hear. As you say, there is nothing legally binding but if you need it in writing to hold the coach to it, you probably don't want to play there anyway and vice versa.

[jbooth]

He is really good at creating drag with his bat in order to get that great whip you see in a swing like Pujols


this is where i get confused..with pcr,we are totally connected to our torso.there should be NO bat drag if done correctly...CORRECT????

yet with dixon approach we have torso ahead of hands,,which would create whip??? isnt whip a form of bat drag?How can you create drag id we are rotating properly???

Bat "drag", the way it is most often used on this forum is when the back elbow leads the bat handle, giving the appearance that the hitter is "dragging" the bat forward.

Bat "lag" as it is used often here is derived from a physics term, meaning that when the handle moves; the bathead does not, due to its tendency to keep its inertia, and not move. The bathead is late in getting momentum combined with the momentum of the handle.

The baseball player will use either term and he means something totally different than what each of them mean on this board. Bat drag and bat lag, to a player are synonymous, and he means that the bathead comes around to the ball last, and is whipped around. It means that the head hasn't been cast, or pushed around.

Ah the problems of the English language, and communication in general:ughh

[Mark H]

He is really good at creating drag with his bat in order to get that great whip you see in a swing like Pujols


this is where i get confused..with pcr,we are totally connected to our torso.there should be NO bat drag if done correctly...CORRECT????

yet with dixon approach we have torso ahead of hands,,which would create whip??? isnt whip a form of bat drag?How can you create drag id we are rotating properly???

Bat drag being defined as the top hand elbow leading the hands with the hands out away from the shoulder causing a larger swing radius. You do want a hook/whip, you just don't want a long swing and bat drag is one way to have a long swing in terms of elapsed time often measured by fps on a standard 30 fps video. Probably a longer answer than you needed.

[tom.guerry]

gem-

The problem with your arms needs to be traced causally way back to the initial loading part of the swing.

As Buster said, the hands need to get loaded more in behind the body to get your swing plane oriented for the out side location. You are getting at this VERY indirectly by closing the stance which makes you take the hands back more inside, BUT you still are not getting the hands in enough and then you are left with the closed stance inhibiting middle action somewhat.

Later in the swing there is the major problem, earlier than the lag position, where you let the bend come out of the BACK elbow/ let the hands get away from the back shoulder. This prevents good enough coil to keep the hands back and allow good enough carry/weight shift before you block the weight with the front foot.

These are all problems that can be compensated for in strong guys hitting inside stuff, but will prevent handling outside AND they prevent creating a good plane match for location that compresses the ball. The other "C" hitter you mention gets better plane match/better contact zone/better collision efficiency.

AS you continue to look at video, I think you are the sort of person who benefits from as many perpsectives as possible and does not let that become confusing.

I would recommend you ask Yeager and Mankin for swing reviews. You might well pick up a pearl or two from looking at things from their perspective.

[ssarge]

Later in the swing there is the major problem, earlier than the lag position, where you let the bend come out of the BACK elbow/ let the hands get away from the back shoulder.
David:

I agree that this is an area for improvement.

Regards,

Scott

[fungo22]

Later in the swing there is the major problem, earlier than the lag position, where you let the bend come out of the BACK elbow/ let the hands get away from the back shoulder.

I agree that this is an area for improvement.
I'm with Tom all the way on this point as well. I only wish we had seen it first.

[4for4]

I'm with Tom all the way on this point as well. I only wish we had seen it first.

Isn't this what Richard was essentially saying at the beginning of this thread? Shoulder rotation stops and HG reaches with his arms or lets the arm take over or something to that effect and this fits nicely with the HG merry-go-round epiphany.

[jojab]

Isn't this what Richard was essentially saying at the beginning of this thread? Shoulder rotation stops and HG reaches with his arms or lets the arm take over or something to that effect and this fits nicely with the HG merry-go-round epiphany.

Remember the King of Clever Sarcasm wrote that as a comment regarding the King of the Melting Pot of Gurus. Don't tell Tom.Guerry that he just agreed with Ohfor though because Ohfor is not on Tom's list of acceptable gurus to quote from. ;)

[fungo22]

Isn't this what Richard was essentially saying at the beginning of this thread? Shoulder rotation stops and HG reaches with his arms or lets the arm take over or something to that effect and this fits nicely with the HG merry-go-round epiphany. Is that what he was saying? I guess Tom and I both must have either misread or misunderstood what Ohfor was getting at. That explains why Tom thought Ohfor didn't know what he was talking about. You're right, 444: It does all fit rather nicely.

[dougmac]

DMac

Did your team draft that hitter you posted a few weeks ago?


If you mean the guy who was 5 1/2 frames to contact??? No, we did not take him.

[swingbuster]

Isn't this what Richard was essentially saying at the beginning of this thread? Shoulder rotation stops and HG reaches with his arms or lets the arm take over or something to that effect and this fits nicely with the HG merry-go-round epiphany.


where your hands are spatially when the rotation begins is at issue here. The closed stance for many indicate that the hands need to get there by a different method.

Changing direction of the knob is not a back and forth directional change always. Turning the knob under facing the catcher and then back to the oppo box as the rotation begins will stop what you are seeing with the hands getting ahead of the shoulders. Yeager says " it helps to get the hands behind the turning mechanism". He is correct

Twenty swings or less ? NOPE..... In one swing done right.....

He can stop getting closed and see the pitcher with both eyes again....it helps

[fungo22]

In one swing done right.....
One swing? Are you actually saying that you can get it right in one swing if you do it right in that one swing?

[swingbuster]

If I showed him...yes one.....:clapping

Maybe 2 if he doesn't get the concept quickly

[fungo22]

If I showed him...yes one.....

Maybe 2 if he doesn't get the concept quicklyYeah, I'm with you on this one. I can see where it would take slower learners 2 swings to get it right if they can't do it right until the second swing. On the other hand I've been able to get really athletic kids to get it right without taking any swings if they're already doing it right.

[swingbuster]

On the other hand I've been able to get really athletic kids to get it right without taking any swings if they're already doing it right.

His HG doing it right? IMO not at pre- launch. The description of his problem was correct but the beginning of the problem was up stream.

Let me say it would be interesting to see him in a different loading pattern and the resulting pop.

He is a good hitter. He might be much better.

What is the big deal about trying something that many great hitters do. He is right handed and many righties need it.

Circular hand path is as important as swing plane. They must work together. If you do not have a circular hand path you are leaving a lot on the table

CHP is a result of a good interface of the upper and lower body with the hands staying back and the shoulder turn bring them around

If the move doesn't start right you cannot recover it or force it to happen

[fungo22]

If the move doesn't start right you cannot recover it or force it to happen True. You'll have to try to get it right in the next swing.

[Ohfor]

One time a kid told me how to swing.

I guess he learned in -1 swings.

Beat that.:D

[hiddengem]

The baseball player will use either term and he means something totally different than what each of them mean on this board. Bat drag and bat lag, to a player are synonymous, and he means that the bathead comes around to the ball last, and is whipped around. It means that the head hasn't been cast, or pushed around.

Ah the problems of the English language, and communication in general:ughh

This is what I was trying to say.

[hiddengem]

I'm with Tom all the way on this point as well. I only wish we had seen it first.

Can you create a .gif of this point in the swing?

[dougmac]

I will see you at BP tomorrow......let it rip. I am the old guy with white hair and a chip on my shoulder.:D

[hiddengem]

I will see you at BP tomorrow......let it rip. I am the old guy with white hair and a chip on my shoulder.:D

Very cool..Come up and say hello.

[hiddengem]

gem-

The problem with your arms needs to be traced causally way back to the initial loading part of the swing.

As Buster said, the hands need to get loaded more in behind the body to get your swing plane oriented for the out side location. You are getting at this VERY indirectly by closing the stance which makes you take the hands back more inside, BUT you still are not getting the hands in enough and then you are left with the closed stance inhibiting middle action somewhat.

Later in the swing there is the major problem, earlier than the lag position, where you let the bend come out of the BACK elbow/ let the hands get away from the back shoulder. This prevents good enough coil to keep the hands back and allow good enough carry/weight shift before you block the weight with the front foot.

These are all problems that can be compensated for in strong guys hitting inside stuff, but will prevent handling outside AND they prevent creating a good plane match for location that compresses the ball. The other "C" hitter you mention gets better plane match/better contact zone/better collision efficiency.

AS you continue to look at video, I think you are the sort of person who benefits from as many perpsectives as possible and does not let that become confusing.

I would recommend you ask Yeager and Mankin for swing reviews. You might well pick up a pearl or two from looking at things from their perspective.


Tom, What happens if I take your advice and I turn this good season I'm having into a crappy one? Are you going to pick up my salary when I get the ax?

[jbooth]

I will see you at BP tomorrow......let it rip. I am the old guy with white hair and a chip on my shoulder.:D

I'll be there too. Let's try to find each other. (If you want to) You have to promise not to hit me.:D

[fungo22]

Can you create a .gif of this point in the swing?:clapping That's the way it is played. He can hit and he's got wit. :clapping

[ssarge]

What happens if I take your advice and I turn this good season I'm having into a crappy one? Are you going to pick up my salary when I get the ax?
The absolute crux of it - when it really matters to you, and isn't just a theoretical exercise. Obviously true for a pro. True of kids trying to play in college, too. Or even of young kids dreaming of making their high school team.

I think about this every time I give advice. "Am I pretty sure this is going to work?" Because this IS important to people.

Regards,

Scott

[LClifton]

Tom, What happens if I take your advice and I turn this good season I'm having into a crappy one? Are you going to pick up my salary when I get the ax?
My only suggestion,
remain productive


Dmac said:
We can't and shouldn't look at a couple of clips and make suggestions.
He went on to say "David, I hope you don't listen." Dmac has been around this much longer than myself and he has a valid point. He's probably seen talent get bogged down, listening to too many suggestions.
I think most of us know that making suggestions can be detrimental.
(As Sarge stated he wants to be absolutely sure)
Observations (a better word) were made, at least that was the intent of my post.
Yeah, I wish I had kids on my team that swung so poorly. ;)
I'm cheering for HG to get to the next level.

In a very calculated manner I'm confident that HG will implement changes.

And I would add, what I believe to be an important attribute of David's,---
--His ability to recognize there is always room for improvement.
or he would not have posted for feed back.

My observation,
LClifton

[tom.guerry]

gem-

I think you're a bigboy and whatever I say is unlikely to harm you.

[swingbuster]

Tom ,

I get amused by Dads saying , I am just afraid if I trying something it will mess him up.

If he is that fragile he is already messed up.

[Mark H]

You two are beginning to look like a pair.

[swingbuster]

You six like a six-pack

[Mark H]

Snappy comeback. :)

[LClifton]

Tom ,
I get amused by Dads saying , I am just afraid if I trying something it will mess him up.
If he is that fragile he is already messed up.
Amusing?,,, maybe. Could be wise. Probably not much to do with fragile.

Donnie, Regarding your leftie with a very good swing you said,

I never talk hitting to him. He came out of the egg doing that and I AM smart enough to leave alone what is good.
Wise or fear of "trying something"....?

The thread is about HG's swing.
It would be wise, IMO, to contemplate thoroughly any suggestion of what to change.

[swingbuster]

Wise or fear of "trying something"....?

THere was not much wrong with my LH hitter's swing per you guys and per my observation...he had a very high level swing. Sandman has a clip of a drive into the LF fence where he was even better

HG was said by you guys to have his hands passing the body parts. IOWs his kinetic chain was breaking down.

trying what a PHD Kinesiologist( Yeager) said " keeps your hands behind the mechanism" might be worth the risk. Since I know it does ; I would recommend it.

Take a few cuts working the handle differently.

You do it or you don't. I have a job already. He might or might not in a few years.

[LClifton]

THere was not much wrong with my LH hitter's swing per you guys and per my observation...he had a very high level swing. Sandman has a clip of a drive into the LF fence where he was even better
Donnie, the quality of that young man's swing was not in question.
It would indeed be wise to really contemplate before any suggestion for change. That, to me, is not fear of making a suggestion to change.

But back on topic,
I doubt with HG there is much fear. He need not only consider the change, but the best step(s) to accomplishing them.
I doubt that he goes to BP and just randomly "tries something"....without some forethought.

Let's just say that you are right in your suggestion.
So HG begins to work on keeping the hands behind the mechanism. Haven't we omitted what he has stated may be the cause of him not being able to accomplish this?
He has stated that he cross strides. So, he (hypothetically) takes your advice to "try something" and the problem is now compounded because the hands have difficulty staying behind the mechanism and he's now hitting the ball with less authority, due to his front side being in the way.

The "fix", done in the wrong order = chaos. JMO.

[swingbuster]

He sets up closed to get his hands inside. That is common. Rentoria does it and hits well and others to. I would not teach it to a kid.

I teach kids to line up to the throwing arm of the pitcher and load/ coil against the proper target line with upper and lower body synchronization and better loading pattern that causes some plane transition and locks the hands back for a moment.

None of us coach MLB players but...a swing is a swing right?


The "fix", done in the wrong order = chaos. JMO.


I doubt that he goes to BP and just randomly "tries something"....without some forethought


Don't tell a soul ...just....


1. line your feet up to throwing arm

2. Load your shoulders where the barrel goes out over the helmet

3. Hit some balls off the tee and focus on the inside seam

Hard as hell ............20 swings...."could a had a V-8"

I would hate to play until my opportunity ended without trying some of the things the HOF players did well

[LClifton]

He sets up closed to get his hands inside.
What I see is that he strides to a closed position.


1. line your feet up to throwing arm
What if the pitcher throws side arm??? [Just kidding.]
He lines up square.


2. Load your shoulders where the barrel goes out over the helmet
His shoulders load and the barrel is near where you say.


3. Hit some balls off the tee and focus on the inside seam
Hard as hell ............20 swings...."could a had a V-8"

With or without the cross stride?
This was / is still the question.

I'll bet HG could stand there all day and hit the inside seam of a baseball. I'll bet he can do it with his bat splitting his helmet.
But will those things fix the cross stride?


I would hate to play until my opportunity ended without trying some of the things the HOF players did well
I'm pretty sure you or I will not have to worry about that.:)

[swingbuster]

With or without the cross stride?
This was / is still the question.

I talked two hours to a 60 year old golf pro from TN yesterday. The guy is a scratch golfer still and was shanking the ball.

His feet were right of target and I pointed it out. He smiled and said" you know what..that is it. I have been allowing myself to work around more closed"

Cross striding is stepping into a closed position. It....

1. keeps the front shoulder in

2. gets the rear shoulder back.

3 relatively gets the rear hip back

4. gets the hands inside the target line

The problem ...none of this happens from negative rotation or coil. It is all a counterfeit way to get in A position to hit but not THE position. It is close enough to feel like your working but the physics are not nearly the same

My personal opinion is that...players that practice a lot and feel they need to be working at the game unknowingly take short cuts that make it less effort to swing. Cross striding takes less effort than doing it right.

People destroy their golf swings on the practice range. They come down with three bags of balls. THey lose their alignment, stop turning the shoulders and hips, and keep hitting until they are much worse off than when they stepped out of the cart. Why? lazy swing mechanics crept in.

Somewhere in his career it worked it's way into the swing to stay. Checking the feet alignment and maintaining it is the first step to making repeatable loads against the target line. When that line is given up the swing is changed immediately

Loren

I'm pretty sure you or I will not have to worry about that.

I am 52 and I am playing the best golf of my life now. How...My baseball studies.

1. I keep the club in the momentum plane of the shoulder turn

2. I create the x angle over the target line..feet left slightly and shoulders right

3. the dropping of my lead heel begins the swing

4. I get inside/ out on the ball

5. I have learned proper rotation

6. I maintain the hinge angle as long as possible

Any of this sound familiar.. It confirms to me what can happen when you have good mechanics. These young guys can play wrong their whole career and it will be a short one. I know from personal experience with golf that good understanding can totally trump practice. I was getting no better practicing

The miracle of what happened for me is not what I shoot now . ...76 last round from blues. The miracle is the fact that I do not practice and I am consistent and I am certainly not more athletic and flexable than 30 years ago. The miracle is that I am effortlessly 10 strokes better with good mechanics.

If you move my feet back to my old "closed position" I'm at 90 again in less than 20 swings...

[tom.guerry]

What makes this so hard is that things inevitably change and the tiniest details can be important.

If you are golf phobic, ignore, but here is a story from the best of his time, Bobby Jones,BOBBY JONES ON GOLF, P.14f, HOW FORM AFFECTS SWINGING:

"The man with a faulty swing ties himself up so that a smooth stroke becomes impossible. The expert swings smoothly because his successive positions are easy and comfortable, and are such that the movement from one to another is not hampered by unwilling muscles. The average golfer does not swing smoothly because at some stage he creates a condition that makes it easier for him to move in the wrong direction than in the right one.

"Here is an example of how one faulty position or movement can upset a swing, when with this one fault corrected,it is able to function reasonably well. The swing, being my own, is one with which I can claim to be fairly familiar; and, when the trouble appeared, it marked for the first time in at least 10 years when I had developed a fault I could not detect or work out for myself within a reasonable time.

"For several months, the old feeling of comfort and smoothness had entirely escaped me, especially with the woods - the irons had not been so bad. I noted that my swing was abnormally fast, and particularly that my legs were not working just right. I tried everything that had worked for me in the past - slowing down, exaggerating the forward shift of my hips at the start of the down stroke, watching the wrist cock to make certain of getting the left [front] side into the stroke - but still I could not bring back the accustomed rhythm. I did suspect that the trouble was in my feet, for I could not even be comfortable in the stance and address position, which upon examination appeared to be as usual.

"So, despairing of ever working the thing out for myself, I took out George Sargent, who was then professional at my home club, to knock around a few holes and talk the thing over. At first, of course, he could only see that my swing did not look as it used to look, that the rhythm was gone, and that it lacked power. Searching back from effect to cause, after we had played five holes, he happened to be standing directly behind my back as I hit a brassie shot. Immediately he caught it. In addressing the ball, my right [back] heel was entirely off the ground.

"Now, let's see what the effect of this could be. My right knee was bent abnormally and what weight rested on the right foot was supported on the toe. Obviously, this made a normal stance, with both feet on line, very uncomfortable. With only the toe of this foot supporting the weight, I had to draw the right foot well back [close stance] to maintain any sort of balance. But the worst part of it was that the precarious balance made a smooth start back impossible. There was an irresistable impulse to get back to earth quickly, and my backswing always started with a jerk. Straightening the right leg a bit - it should never be perfectly straight or rigid - and lowering the right heel to the ground made my balance secure again, and I was able to start back without hurry.

"The two danger points are at the start of the backswing and at the start of the downstroke. To start back smoothly avoids haste later on; to start down in leisurely fashion helps maintain the perfect balance, and provides for well-timed, accurate striking."

[swingbuster]

Great story Tom,

Our buddies are light years from accepting what really happens.

Does a 4 1/2 frame swing lack rythm and segmentation. I don't think so. Did MLB players always throw 95...probably not in the early days?

Brings up good points to discuss

[hiddengem]

Great story Tom,



You actually read that? Say it ain't so.

[swingbuster]

Read it, love it, understood it. It had a point. A closed stance or cross striding is a dangerous thing. It makes it more likely that what follows will be easier done wrong than right

Golf tells you how well you understand the swing with one number.

I guess baseball does too . It is called a Batting Average. Joe Mauer is at .370 He understands it best right now.

[sl0annuggets]

i read pretty much this whole thread, i just wanna hit with yall

[dougmac]

Read it, love it, understood it. It had a point. A closed stance or cross striding is a dangerous thing. It makes it more likely that what follows will be easier done wrong than right

Golf tells you how well you understand the swing with one number.

I guess baseball does too . It is called a Batting Average. Joe Mauer is at .370 He understands it best right now.


http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/GBrett85HR.mpg

Here is a guy that used to stride to a closed position and he was a better hitter than Mauer.

[hiddengem]

Read it, love it, understood it. It had a point. A closed stance or cross striding is a dangerous thing. It makes it more likely that what follows will be easier done wrong than right

Golf tells you how well you understand the swing with one number.

I guess baseball does too . It is called a Batting Average. Joe Mauer is at .370 He understands it best right now.

So, if when August comes around and he's hitting .270 are you going to jump off his Wagon?

[swingbuster]

No...I know his brother Jim . They make and sell the Mauer Quickswing. Nice guys. I will still like him.

[Ohfor]

"The Contraption Club"

Is Eric a member? Just kidding. Where you been Eric?

Taking marketing lessons from the Conn Huckster.

[swingbuster]

"The Contraption Club"

Better than the " Co-Dependency Club"

[hiddengem]

No...I know his brother Jim . They make and sell the Mauer Quickswing. Nice guys. I will still like him.


I saw that thing at the Texas coaches convention. Who cares if they are nice guys? You brought him up because he steps straight and is hitting .370. What if he was stepping straight and hitting .250, is it all of a sudden wrong? DMAC brough up Brett, did he swing wrong? His results were decent.

[dougmac]

Mauer can step straight, but he won't ever be George Brett and Brett stepped closed. HOF

[swingbuster]

Dmac brought up a guy that cross strides and keeps his led foot closed. He keeps a long lead arm. He swings inside out and maintains his hinge angle and generates a lot of bat tip speed.

Can't think of too many others that do that. NO RH hitters come to mind.

So what is your point? Is cross striding a teach. My best LH hitter strides closed and gets that Brett like unhinging vs a chicken-wing. He is a great hitter too. I did not change him. When we did level his feet, he could not get the barrel squaring out in the zone.

There is a mechanism there. It can work if the stages of the swing fit. It can be a disaster if it is a bad compensation that starts one wrong move after another which is more common but bad swings are more common than good.



Who cares if they are nice guys?

I do but not many here care

[hiddengem]

I do but not many here care

Of course you would like the guy(as a person) if he was hitting .250, but thats not what we were talking about.

[fungo22]

Of course you would like the guy(as a person) if he was hitting .250, but thats not what we were talking about. Good luck with keeping SB tracking on topic, HG.