Knuckleball

[BuzzBaseball]

Does throwing a knuckleball place to much stress on a young pitchers (11 year old) arm? Is it a bad pitch for a kid to throw? Is it as bad as a curveball on the arm? On my son's 11u team the pitchers that throw curveballs have gained the head coaches favor big time.

My son throws a very good, controlable fastball and a change-up. His change-up is only 5 to 7 mph slower than his fastball right now (I measured it with a Stalker gun). My son has been throwing the knuckleball at home and it hardly spins at all. It does not "hop" (probably not thrown fast enough to do that) around like a pro knuckleball looks like it does but it dies just after the plate it or comes in very low in relation to the batter and is much slower than his fastball (12 to 15 mph slower). The pitch does not get away from him.

I will not allow him to throw a curveball or slider until he is at least 14 or 15. Will throwing this knuckleball damage his arm or should I shut it down? Thanks

[Chris O'Leary]

Does throwing a knuckleball place to much stress on a young pitchers (11 year old) arm? Is it a bad pitch for a kid to throw? Is it as bad as a curveball on the arm? On my son's 11u team the pitchers that throw curveballs have gained the head coaches favor big time.

My son throws a very good, controlable fastball and a change-up. His change-up is only 5 to 7 mph slower than his fastball right now (I measured it with a Stalker gun). My son has been throwing the knuckleball at home and it hardly spins at all. It does not "hop" (probably not thrown fast enough to do that) around like a pro knuckleball looks like it does but it dies just after the plate it or comes in very low in relation to the batter and is much slower than his fastball (12 to 15 mph slower). The pitch does not get away from him.

I will not allow him to throw a curveball or slider until he is at least 14 or 15. Will throwing this knuckleball damage his arm or should I shut it down? Thanks

No, No, and No.

A professional's knuckleball is thrown at much lower velocity than a fastball and with a neutral wrist, so it exerts much less force on a pitcher's arm.

I know that some people say you shouldn't throw a knuckleball untill you're older, but that makes no sense from an injury-prevention standpoint.

Maybe it's because kids hands tend to be too small to throw it well. Also, it could be that you do have to throw a knuckleball fast enough (e.g. 70-75 MPH) for it to really jump around, and most younger kids just plain can't hit that speed.

I think a knuckle curve is a great breaking pitch for a young pitcher to learn, and I'm teaching it to my 11 YO son.

[bbjunkie]

Is it a bad pitch for a kid to throw? Is it as bad as a curveball on the arm? On my son's 11u team the pitchers that throw curveballs have gained the head coaches favor big time.

I will not allow him to throw a curveball or slider until he is at least 14 or 15. Will throwing this knuckleball damage his arm or should I shut it down? Thanks
I wouldn't discount the curveball so easily. As I understand it, if thrown properly the curve is no more harmful than the fb. Glenn Fleisig, Research Director for the American Sports Medicine Institute, commented in a LL Q&A session that a recent study found few differences in shoulder and elbow forces between fb's, curveballs and sliders in college pitchers. He cited a "number of studies looking at curveballs in young pitchers" and expressed his opinion that the evidence is inconclusive.

Oh yeh, my 12yo son throws at most 3-4 curves a game and they are devastating. Its easy to see why those coaches like them.

http://www.littleleague.org/ask11/06marsession.asp

On the subject of knuckleballs he merely stated that his group had never worked with knuckleballers. The session was interesting. The bottom line was that kids who throw a lot during a season or game, who play more than 9 months a year and particularly those who pitch when their arms are fatigued are most at risk.

[Chris O'Leary]

I wouldn't discount the curveball so easily. As I understand it, if thrown properly the curve is no more harmful than the fb.

The problem is that many pitchers don't throw it the "safe" way and there's no easy way for a coach to tell if a pitcher is throwing it the "safe" way or not.

There's also a lot of uncertainty about whether the "safe" curveball is actually safe.

With my guys I'm going to follow the example of Trevor Hoffman's dad and not let them throw a curveball until they are in college.

[the pyromaniac]

I threw knuckleballs and knuckle-curves exclusively for almost 10 years and never had any arm problems until about 3 years after I threw my last pitch. I've always been of the mindset that if a kid's hands are big enough to throw it properly, there's nothing wrong with the flutterball, from an injury prevention standpoint.

[BuzzBaseball]

I appreciate the responses so far but I do not want to debate the curveball question. My son will not throw the curveball for a few more years, that decision has been made. I'm really just interested in respones that speak to the question regarding the knuckleball. Thanks

Oh, bbjunkie...There is already one of those kids on my son's team who throws the curveball out for the season with what was called by his doctor "little league elbow". Nothing torn, just a strain, but done for the year anyway. The curveball did him a lot of good. Another reason not to let my kid throw the curveball.

[Jake Patterson]

On my son's 11u team the pitchers that throw curveballs have gained the head coaches favor big time."
This is the largest reason why so many young players are ruined at such a young age. They have coaches that are not trained in the proper mechanics of pitching or possess a working knowledge of the adolescent child. More important what can be damaged and why.

I will not allow him to throw a curveball or slider until he is at least 14 or 15.

You are doing the right thing... (Mind you now - it's dependent on his physical maturity and not chronological age.)

Will throwing this knuckleball damage his arm or should I shut it down? Thanks

Knuckler should not damage his arm.

[Chris O'Leary]

Oh, bbjunkie...There is already one of those kids on my son's team who throws the curveball out for the season with what was called by his doctor "little league elbow". Nothing torn, just a strain, but done for the year anyway. The curveball did him a lot of good. Another reason not to let my kid throw the curveball.

I wonder if the problem with the curveball isn't (just) the pitch itself, but the amount of practice it takes to throw one well.

Many pitchers can throw a decent fastball with only a little practice, but throwing a good curveball takes a lot of practice. Could it be that practice -- the sheer number of throws and the resulting overuse -- that creates a lot of the risk?

The same thing could be at the root cause of problems with kids who only throw fastballs. It may not be the fastballs that are causing the problem, but the tons of practice spent trying to throw the fastball just a little faster.

Something to think about.

[bbjunkie]

Oh, bbjunkie...There is already one of those kids on my son's team who throws the curveball out for the season with what was called by his doctor "little league elbow". Nothing torn, just a strain, but done for the year anyway. The curveball did him a lot of good. Another reason not to let my kid throw the curveball.
There is a 13yo locally that was the big stud in LL last year and the year before. This year he was playing JV and BR ball. Never threw anything but fb's and CU's. Rotator cuff injury out for the year and may need surgery. Anecdotal evidence means squat. If you don't pay attention to the science you're fooling yourself.

I'm not advocating throwing anything. It's just a little annoying when I cite the best research available and it is dismissed out of hand because we've all heard for years how bad curves are. There are a lot of myths floating around baseball. If people don't follow the science the myths will continue to float. The stuff that Steve and Paul Nyman have done, as is well chronicled on this board, is evidence that science works for hitters. why not for pitchers too?

I wonder if the problem with the curveball isn't (just) the pitch itself, but the amount of practice it takes to throw one well.

Many pitchers can throw a decent fastball with only a little practice, but throwing a good curveball takes a lot of practice. Could it be that practice -- the sheer number of throws and the resulting overuse -- that creates a lot of the risk?

The same thing could be at the root cause of problems with kids who only throw fastballs. It may not be the fastballs that are causing the problem, but the tons of practice spent trying to throw the fastball just a little faster.

I think Chris is onto the real problem, kids pitching too much. That is borne out by the science in a big way. How much does your kid pitch?

[BuzzBaseball]

Can the curveball be discussed on another thread please? I think the curveball debate has been carried out to death on earlier threads. The curveball is not an option for my kid. There is already one kid on the team who is down for the season because he threw it. Whether he threw it correctly or incorrectly I don't care...to much or to little, I don't care...he threw it and now he is done for the season because of it...that's enough for me.

I asked about the knuckleball and if it was appropriate for a 11 year old to throw and if it would damage the arm as a curveball can do to a young arm. I know there are some good people on this site that can answer those questions. I'm really just tired of unqualified "coaches" and over zealous, wannabee fathers spouting off as they do in the youth baseball community in my area and they don't know sh**.

[bbjunkie]

I asked about the knuckleball and if it was appropriate for a 11 year old to throw and if it would damage the arm as a curveball can do to a young arm. I know there are some good people on this site that can answer those questions. I'm really just tired of unqualified "coaches" and over zealous, wannabee fathers spouting off as they do in the youth baseball community in my area and they don't know sh**.
No, No, and No.

A professional's knuckleball is thrown at much lower velocity than a fastball and with a neutral wrist, so it exerts much less force on a pitcher's arm.

I know that some people say you shouldn't throw a knuckleball untill you're older, but that makes no sense from an injury-prevention standpoint.

Maybe it's because kids hands tend to be too small to throw it well. Also, it could be that you do have to throw a knuckleball fast enough (e.g. 70-75 MPH) for it to really jump around, and most younger kids just plain can't hit that speed.

I think a knuckle curve is a great breaking pitch for a young pitcher to learn, and I'm teaching it to my 11 YO son.
Your question answered by one person who carries a measure of authority.
Knuckler should not damage his arm.
Answered by another who has written books on the subject of youth baseball.

I threw knuckleballs and knuckle-curves exclusively for almost 10 years and never had any arm problems until about 3 years after I threw my last pitch. I've always been of the mindset that if a kid's hands are big enough to throw it properly, there's nothing wrong with the flutterball, from an injury prevention standpoint.
Answered by someone with anecdotal experience, the kind you apparently have great faith in.
I'm really just tired of unqualified "coaches" and over zealous, wannabee fathers spouting off as they do in the youth baseball community in my area and they don't know sh**.
I assume you were referring to me. Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't offer the anecdotal evidence I've seen in my own son's experience in throwing knuckleballs because, frankly, his knuckler doesn't seem to do much from 46 ft. Instead, I referred you to comments by a highly authoritative source relied upon by Little League International. Did you even read it? Have you done any research beyond asking a question on this board? You asked for input and I gave you what I know. I have to ask who the "over zealous, wannabee father" is in this conversation. This my last input in this discussion.

[BuzzBaseball]

bbjunkie, what is your problem? I don't care about any of your curveball research or your defense of little kids throwing it. The curveball is not an option, as I stated previously, and won't be for a few more years. Please go hijack a thread somewhere else within the website or start your own regarding little kids throwing curveballs. I believe there is plenty of credible research out there stating 11 year old pitchers should not throw a curveball but I could not find much referring to a knuckleball so that's why I asked the question on this website. I did not want to discuss the curveball.

And, no, I was not referring to you as an over zealous, wannabee father but I seemed to have touched a nerve....

[yosteve]

The knuckler won't hurt your....but either will a change up. Difference is the change up is a pitch everyone can perfect, and throw it forever. The knuckler, only so many guys can actually throw a great one.

[Ursa Major]

I think if you think of a knuckler as a change-up (since, as noted, few thrown in that age bracket really break) it can be an effective pitch. The problem is that kids with small hands tend to telegraph it because they have to change their motion to keep the ball from falling out of their hand in mid-motion.

Still, most kids at that level don't know how to adjust even if they know it's coming. (I pitch wiffle balls to our kids in pre-game and I'll get 'em used to changeups by announcing, "OK, change-up coming", and they're still three feet in front of it. Had a great moment in our last game when one of our smaller pitchers got a kid with great bat speed at two strikes; he kept throwing strikes and the kid kept blasting fouls down the third base line. Finally, the kid got the notion that the hitter was timing his arm and literally shot-putted a knuckler up to the plate. The kid swung and was half way to the bench by the time the ball finally arrived. Everyone in the park could see it coming, but the hitter couldn't hold back. Also, if you can throw it without spin, it may well mezmerize kids who aren't used to being able to see the threads. (Remember, an ideal knuckler is supposed to have a minuscule amount of forward spin -- like maybe a quarter rotation.)

Okay, lest I too be accused of not answering the original question, I'll get to it. If the kid can grip the ball well enough to throw it accurately with his fastball motion, the pitch should be safe. But, as noted, kids tend to push the knuckler and straighten their elbow much too soon, which could cause damage there. So, I'd monitor their motion and their elbows after throwing 'em.

[Chi Sox 1]

no strain at all. an example is satchel paige, he pitched until he was almost 60 because he was a knuckle-baller