the old Todd Jones

[carta_411]

it appears the old todd jones is back!! 5 runs in the 11th innining for the loss last night vs: the yanks. felt bad for the guys who fought back to tie it!

[racosun]

Actually, this is the same Jones we've witnessed all year. Instead of getting out of his self-made ninth-inning jams, he faced the Yankees and they made him pay. He can put a guy or two on when we're playing the Royals, maybe even Cleveland, but not the Yankees. We've got above-average players at every position; the Yanks have All-Stars at every position. Could it be nearing the time when Zumaya takes over as closer? Leyland has always said he likes talent over age, so it's time for him to prove it. Jones would be a very capable 7th-inning guy, but he's not a closer anymore.

[OldEnglishD]

I completely agree. Jones would be a decent #2 setup guy - nothing more. Certainly not a dominating closer - (like Zumaya will be ;)).

I was at the game, and wow - very exciting. The crowd was into it, and I loved it. It used to bug me in years past that the crowd would ..... wait ..... for the Tigers to give them something to cheer about. But this year, I've been happy every time I've gone - the crowd is there BEFORE things happen, anticipating & pumping the guys up to give them a little more oompf to make something happen.

But back to Jones. I've never liked Todd "the Roller Coaster" Jones. He just isn't dominating enough to be a closer. You wanna see the 1-2-3 most of the time ... but even when he is "successful", it seems as if he lucks out of things.

[riverfrontier]

A 6.00 ERA in May, and 26 baserunners allowed in 15 innings. Not so much the stats of a dominant pitcher, but more like those of a belly-itcher, which, as has been stated game after game, exactly what most fans DON'T want. The fans have spoken, now let's eat.

[Blackout]

come on guys, its not his fault he ran into the Yankees, he's not THAT bad

[racosun]

come on guys, its not his fault he ran into the Yankees, he's not THAT bad

Yeah, just like you can't get too mad at Kyle Farnsworth for getting tagged by his former team. Alot of the current Tigers (if not most) have played with Farnsy, and they know his style. Plus the Tigers have a top-five offense capable of getting to anyone, although not as powerful as the Yankees. Todd Jones is old and crafty, and really would be better used in the 7th inning slot. He's in his forties, and doesn't have the velocity he used to. He gets tired easier. And it's not really fair to put his 93-95 mph heater in there right after the opponent has witnessed a 98-102 mph one. Much easier to pick it up after seeing those white blurs fly by for eight innings.

[moldyoldie]

....He's in his forties....
:eek: I had to make of double-take of that one! Actually, he's only 38.

I've always liked the idea of "bullpen by committee". If a guy is gettin' 'em out, keep him in there and forget about a "designated closer". It's a lame concept, just like the "save" statistic and the "situational southpaw".

Make decisions based on historical effectiveness against certain hitters. Count the pitches just as you would a starter.

I cringe whenever I see a pitcher mow down the side in order, only to be lifted the next inning for the "closer".:ughh

[racosun]

:eek: I had to make of double-take of that one! Actually, he's only 38.

I've always liked the idea of "bullpen by committee". If a guy is gettin' 'em out, keep him in there and forget about a "designated closer". It's a lame concept, just like the "save" statistic and the "situational southpaw".

Make decisions based on historical effectiveness against certain hitters. Count the pitches just as you would a starter.

I cringe whenever I see a pitcher mow down the side in order, only to be lifted the next inning for the "closer".:ughh

Oops, my bad. He's just pitching like a 40-year old.

I'm not sure the players would be too keen on a "bullpen-by-committee" approach, mainly because they find more stability in their life when they have a defined role (doesn't everyone?). While I agree that it is a lame concept, I think most players play better when they have a certain job to take care of. I just think certain players are in the wrong roles right now. Zumaya should be closing (he'd make Papelbon share the spotlight, and possibly ROY), and Bonderman should have been able to keep his "Ace" tag. Jones should be pitching the 7th, sometimes the 8th. I'd have Polanco lead off, followed by Guillen, Pudge, and Maggs and Shelton. Of course, that's all just my opinion. I trust that Jim Leyland knows what he's doing, and he definitely knows way more baseball than I do.

[skeletor]

Oops, my bad. He's just pitching like a 40-year old.

I'm not sure the players would be too keen on a "bullpen-by-committee" approach, mainly because they find more stability in their life when they have a defined role (doesn't everyone?). While I agree that it is a lame concept, I think most players play better when they have a certain job to take care of. I just think certain players are in the wrong roles right now. Zumaya should be closing (he'd make Papelbon share the spotlight, and possibly ROY), and Bonderman should have been able to keep his "Ace" tag. Jones should be pitching the 7th, sometimes the 8th. I'd have Polanco lead off, followed by Guillen, Pudge, and Maggs and Shelton. Of course, that's all just my opinion. I trust that Jim Leyland knows what he's doing, and he definitely knows way more baseball than I do.


I concur..Leyland certainly knows his baseball..even after being out on hiatus
for six seasons..still coaching for the Cards, ( spring training ? ) kept him
in the loop....If Tram had even 20 % of what Leyland knows, he would still
probably be employed as skipper...

as for Jones, hot and cold...He struck gold last season, got himself inna
good groove with the Marlins..and he certainly could get himself untracked
in Detroit..and do the job..but I don't think he can...and he would be best
suited as a 7 or 8th inning set up...I'm sure Leyland has some sort of
insight and plan for Jones..

also thinking of Farnsworth...pitching with the Braves, then ankling them
for the Yanks...how he would have been better suited in Detroit..

oh well....we need a solid closer in the games ahead.....and stick with him !

[racosun]

A nice two-run bomb in the top of the ninth with two outs to give up the lead. Way to go, Todd! You're on your way to being the 7th inning guy, if you can handle it.

[tigers527]

I do find it amazing, how Jones converts any saves at all. It is perplexing 16 out of 18....with 3 losses. <shrugs> I guess a deal and the devil are likely involved, a 6 ERA is not going to cut it.

That one was a tough loss, and too bad for Rogers....Oh well, they will get them tomorrow.

[racosun]

Amazing is a perfect word describing Todd Jones. His 16 saves are good for 2nd in the AL, 3rd in all of baseball. If Rodney had been the closer that whole time, there's a good chance he's #1 in MLB in saves. Okay, saves aren't always a telling stat of a good bullpen pitcher, so let's compare ERA's: Jones is weighing in with a 5.85 earned run average. Fernando Rodney has a 1.08, and Joel Zumaya boasts a 2.70. In innings in which they've gotten at least three outs, Jones has had the luxury of producing 5 '1-2-3' innings in 18 chances. Rodney converted 9 out of 23 chances, and Zumaya has 5 for 15.

While none of that may really mean anything in the long term, it does tell a story of Todd Jones being out of his element as the team closer. His walks+hits per inning pitched (WHIP) is insane for a closer, especially one that closes for a so-called contending team. What's even more amazing is that Jones has 7 K's and 4 walks over 20 innings of work. He's not exactly blowing people away. With so few K's, and such a high WHIP, batters are able to make consistent contact with his pitches, and with an ERA like he has, they're not popping up to second base.

For comparison purposes, Rodney has 24 K's and 12 walks over 25 innings of work, while Zumaya has 31 and 13 over 25.2 innings. Those are better power pitching numbers more suited for the closer role. If it's experience Leyland wants, switch to Rodney. He's perfectly capable. If it's pure power and talent Leyland wants, switch to Zoom-by-ya. He's destined for greatness in that role. If it's clubhouse dissention and a mid-summer collapse Leyland wants, just stick with Jones and let him "earn" those millions. After he loses 10 more games for us, Leyland will lose the clubhouse, guaransheed.

[riverfrontier]

I had been keeping a few air-sick bags next to the computer for his appearances, and I'm almost out now. Looks like another trip to Hong Kong should replenish my stock. How many more games like these before Leyland makes a move? We threw that game away. Bad aftertaste.

[skeletor]

Amazing is a perfect word describing Todd Jones. His 16 saves are good for 2nd in the AL, 3rd in all of baseball. If Rodney had been the closer that whole time, there's a good chance he's #1 in MLB in saves. Okay, saves aren't always a telling stat of a good bullpen pitcher, so let's compare ERA's: Jones is weighing in with a 5.85 earned run average. Fernando Rodney has a 1.08, and Joel Zumaya boasts a 2.70. In innings in which they've gotten at least three outs, Jones has had the luxury of producing 5 '1-2-3' innings in 18 chances. Rodney converted 9 out of 23 chances, and Zumaya has 5 for 15.

While none of that may really mean anything in the long term, it does tell a story of Todd Jones being out of his element as the team closer. His walks+hits per inning pitched (WHIP) is insane for a closer, especially one that closes for a so-called contending team. What's even more amazing is that Jones has 7 K's and 4 walks over 20 innings of work. He's not exactly blowing people away. With so few K's, and such a high WHIP, batters are able to make consistent contact with his pitches, and with an ERA like he has, they're not popping up to second base.

For comparison purposes, Rodney has 24 K's and 12 walks over 25 innings of work, while Zumaya has 31 and 13 over 25.2 innings. Those are better power pitching numbers more suited for the closer role. If it's experience Leyland wants, switch to Rodney. He's perfectly capable. If it's pure power and talent Leyland wants, switch to Zoom-by-ya. He's destined for greatness in that role. If it's clubhouse dissention and a mid-summer collapse Leyland wants, just stick with Jones and let him "earn" those millions. After he loses 10 more games for us, Leyland will lose the clubhouse, guaransheed.


Someone oughta call the lost and found department at Joe Robbie stadium,
and see if JONES misplaced his pitching form from last season..'cuz for the
most part, HE AIN'T doing it in DETROIT...could this be another pricey
and ill fated $$$$ signing..? heck, if we needed a 7 inning set up guy,
I'm sure we could have found someone at Erie or Toledo..and far cheaper
than Jonesy...Maybe Leyland is ' forced ' to pitch Jones..but somehow I
think I'm wrong..Jimmy has too much spunk to take guff like that from
upper management, or our pizza swilling owner...:cool:

[tigers527]

I guess baseball karma got the Tigers on this one, they should not have beat the Yankees on Thursday, and the baseball gods bit them. They should have won last night.

I think Jones and the amount of saves he does have are indicative of the old even the best players make an out 7 out of 10 times. He really does not do anymore then see if on a given day he can face his around 5 guys and hope the hit into the 70% outs odds say they will make. Although, it seemed every batter he faced last night was like 5 for 7 against Todd.

I have actually been defending Jones against the people calling for his head, but jeeze, I really think I might have to back track. If the Tigers do throw in Rodney, that would move everyone in the bullpen up one slot. I really don't think they would want Jones out in the 7th either? So who takes Zumayas role? As Zumaya will take the Rodney role, and Rodney the Jones role. So either you stick Jones down a few slots in the Bullpen, you hope the starters can with consistancecy work deeper into games or put in Jamie Walker or the like. As horrid as Jones can be, I really don't know that the bullpen gets better through subtraction? As moving Jones moves all the bullpen up a slot. Although, if you have Jones out in the 7th, that would give the Tigers 9 outs (in home games) to comeback?

[Twins4Ever]

Do you think Zumaya should be closing?

Personally, I think he should.

Todd Jones has done good, but he is who he is.

[racosun]

Someone oughta call the lost and found department at Joe Robbie stadium,
and see if JONES misplaced his pitching form from last season..'cuz for the
most part, HE AIN'T doing it in DETROIT...could this be another pricey
and ill fated $$$$ signing..? heck, if we needed a 7 inning set up guy,
I'm sure we could have found someone at Erie or Toledo..and far cheaper
than Jonesy...Maybe Leyland is ' forced ' to pitch Jones..but somehow I
think I'm wrong..Jimmy has too much spunk to take guff like that from
upper management, or our pizza swilling owner...:cool:

It was a gamble by DD to bring in Jones as the closer, that's for sure. I don't think he really knew how good Rodney would be, or that Zumaya would have such unbelieveable success in the big show. Nor did he know that Jones would pitch like a 38-year old on the steep slope to retirement. DD can't really recieve too much flak for the Jones signing. Now that he knows about Rodney and Zumaya, it actually makes the sting of getting bit by the gamble a little less painful. He has bona fide options to close out games instead of Jonesy. I'm sure it's 100% up to Jim Leyland as to whether the change is made, and when. Jim likes Jones, he's a no-nonsense kind of guy like himself...meat-and-potatoes, jeans-and-Tshirt man. They're both tough dudes. But both will look over-the-hill if the status quo is left as is. I'd bet my house, though, that Jones gets to blow at least one more save before he's moved down the ladder.


I have actually been defending Jones against the people calling for his head, but jeeze, I really think I might have to back track. If the Tigers do throw in Rodney, that would move everyone in the bullpen up one slot. I really don't think they would want Jones out in the 7th either? So who takes Zumayas role? As Zumaya will take the Rodney role, and Rodney the Jones role. So either you stick Jones down a few slots in the Bullpen, you hope the starters can with consistancecy work deeper into games or put in Jamie Walker or the like. As horrid as Jones can be, I really don't know that the bullpen gets better through subtraction? As moving Jones moves all the bullpen up a slot. Although, if you have Jones out in the 7th, that would give the Tigers 9 outs (in home games) to comeback?

I don't think Jones would be moved to the bottom of the barrel if he lost his current role. I'm guessing that he'd probably just switch roles with Rodney, and Zumaya would continue in his current capacity. I think Zumaya could close out games next year or, if Rodney stumbles worse than Jones did, this year. Leyland's style and attitude tells me that he really respects Todd Jones (as do his teammates), and wouldn't demote him all the way down. The only players a switch would effect, IMO, would be Rodney and Jones. That would leave us only 6 outs to try and catch back up.

[tigers527]

With Rodneys preformance tonight? Are you sure you want things to change? Is the Saves guy becoming the LIONS QB? Poor Nate, (hardluck) Nate Robertson.

We lost by the umps not ruling the GRD was not Granderson scoring?

[racosun]

I don't know why Leyland had to lift Zumaya for Rodney. The kid gets you through the Sox' two best hitters, then we sit him down. What was up with Rodney shaking off all of Wilson's signs? If there was a certain pitch he wasn't confident in, why be in there at all? I didn't notice whether Rodney shook off Wilson on the SS's big homer.

Big loss today. We should have taken two of four from the Yanks, then two of three from the Red Sox. Then, we should have wrapped up the first game of this set. Where's that shut-down bullpen we had for the first two months? This is the toughest stretch of the season so far, and they've disappeared. At least we got to see someone else blow the game, instead of Todd Jones. We're used to disappointment, but it was getting a bit monotonous.

[tigers527]

I don't know why Leyland had to lift Zumaya for Rodney. The kid gets you through the Sox' two best hitters, then we sit him down. What was up with Rodney shaking off all of Wilson's signs? If there was a certain pitch he wasn't confident in, why be in there at all? I didn't notice whether Rodney shook off Wilson on the SS's big homer.

Big loss today. We should have taken two of four from the Yanks, then two of three from the Red Sox. Then, we should have wrapped up the first game of this set. Where's that shut-down bullpen we had for the first two months? This is the toughest stretch of the season so far, and they've disappeared. At least we got to see someone else blow the game, instead of Todd Jones. We're used to disappointment, but it was getting a bit monotonous.

I know we are huge Tigers fans? But how do you get 2 out of 4? The Tigers were lucky to get one (I know the Tigers had a chance against Small, it didn't happen) Randy Johnson remembered "who he was" Mike Mussina wasn't going to be stoped (see my avatar), and we lucked out on the final game. HOW...DO....The Tigers deserve 2-2 against the Yankees?

[racosun]

I know we are huge Tigers fans? But how do you get 2 out of 4? The Tigers were lucky to get one (I know the Tigers had a chance against Small, it didn't happen) Randy Johnson remembered "who he was" Mike Mussina wasn't going to be stoped (see my avatar), and we lucked out on the final game. HOW...DO....The Tigers deserve 2-2 against the Yankees?

I believe it was Granderson (I could be wrong) who struck out in the bottom of the 8th of that tie game Jonesy blew. There was someone on third base and less than two outs. If properly executed, we should have won that game, giving us two of four. Although are record is bad through this "tough" stretch, we played good enough to hold our own, if not for the bullpen.

[Paulmcall]

Looks like our relievers are competing for Top Chef by trying to see who can serve up the most meatballs while the game is on the line. First Todd, then Rodney... whoa what's going on here?
We need to get two out of three from the Sox to stay on track.
I don't think Todd will be the closer after the All Star break. He looks like a guy who parlayed one last good season into a big payday. Unfortunately, we maybe paying for it in cash and losses this year and next.:eek:

[skeletor]

looks like jonesy blew another game tonight, against the Blue Jays..

8 th inning horror show...how much longer can this go on ?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[racosun]

This is his third straight blown save, hopefully it's the last game we see Jonesy try to save. I could have dealt with him blowing one every seven or eight tries, but three in a row is just ridiculous. Rodney also had his second straight terrible outing. What the heck is up with this bullpen?

[1935,1945,1968,1984]

Perhaps, we could let Zumaya go for the old 3 inning save? He was the only pitcher out of the bullpen that did anything? And on the odd save situation, when you can't use your closer, have Jones and Rodney fight to blow it?

[racosun]

Leyland seems to be babying Zumaya more than Verlander, which is odd. He says he doesn't want to put Verlander through the rigors of a 200-inning season this early in his career, yet the kid just keeps pitching great. He had shoulder stiffness before his last start, yet threw over 100 pitches again. He's on pace to log well over 200 innings. I hope this isn't another situation like The Bird. Could Leyland really shut down Verlander if the Tigers are in a playoff hunt by season's end? Tough call. We need him for the future.

I can see a kick-butt rotation featuring Verlander, Bonderman, and this Andrew Miller kid we just drafted. If Zumaya isn't going to close games, he would be another power arm for that rotation. Bonderman pitched well enough for the win yesterday, but good OLD Todd Jones had to try and save it. I think Leyland will really lose some of his luster if he decides to stick with Jones any longer than he already has. It's obviously not working, and I'm sure the rest of the players are getting pissed that their hard work against some pretty good teams is going to waste because an over-the-hill pitcher blows all of it in less than an inning. I wonder if Jonesy apologizes after every blown save, and whether the rest of the team will continue to forgive him.

[racosun]

TODD JONES SAVES GAME; TIGERS WIN 5-3

Sorry, it's just a bit surreal to see him save a game nowadays. They flashed to Miner really quick in the dugout when Jones was on the mound, and he looked pretty nervous. Even Leyland looked scared, especially after Jones allowed the tying run to come to the plate (again). Jonesy then went on to let the winning run come to the dish. He may have nailed this one down, but I still don't feel comfortable with him "closing" games.

[racosun]

Word is Jim Leyland likes the way the back-end of his bullpen looks, and won't be changing it anytime soon. He also said Zumaya isn't ready to be a closer. Okay. Yeah. Just like Boston wasn't sure if Papelbon would be any good in that role. I think Jim is just being stubborn right now, and at the detriment of the team. Is the whole "talent-over-age" quote not true anymore, Jim? You can't possibly believe that Todd Jones is a better option than Joel Zumaya, can you? Or even Fernando Rodney? There's a million Tigers fans that would disagree. I wonder how many more saves Jones will blow before he is finally demoted in rank. Too many, methinks.

[racosun]

Joel Zumaya pitched three hitless innings today in Toronto to nab his first career big-league save in a 10-5 Tigers victory over the Jays. Is this a sign of things to come? I hope so, but I'm not counting on it. I think Jones and Rodney got a rest day. Zumaya tallied four K's and allowed one walk, and at one point touched a season-high 102 on the radar gun. Simply put, the kid is phenomenal. I think he's got better stuff than Jon Papelbon, he just needs to opportunity. Joel has come in and got the Tigers out of countless jams so far in his rookie year, so I don't agree with Leyland when he says he's not ready to be a closer. He's got fire in his arm and ice water in his veins. It was good the see Leyland allow him to go longer than one inning. It needs to happen more often.

[racosun]

Todd Jones pitched two innings yesterday while getting his first win of the season. Rodney was also decent.

[carta_411]

it appears the old todd jones is back!! 5 runs in the 11th innining for the loss last night vs: the yanks. felt bad for the guys who fought back to tie it!

4hits 4 runs in the 12th!! 6/14, good outing for bondo, 12 K's!! 1 ER

[HDH]

Am I the only person that thinks that Todd Jones the weakest link on this team? Lately, he's had something to do with many of the losses.

[nosoupforyou]

I always get nervous whenever they motion for Jones. I start thinking to myself how is he going to make it interesting this time. Jones was good, and I emphasize "was". He had a good year last year in Florida, but he is too old and doesn't have his stuff anymore. I thought it was a bad idea to sign Jones in the offseason. I was thinking isn't there anyone a little younger who they could get. I think Rodney or Zumaya would be a good closer if given the chance. They need to trade Jones if possible by the deadline to a team who is in need of a closer and has someone worth picking up. Don't get me wrong, I like Jones, but he is not the man for the job. We have a good young team who is hungry for a playoff spot, and I would hate for the team to end up losing important games in the 9th after all the hard work they put in. We are neck and neck with Chicago, and I need to see get to the playoffs. I was only 3 when they won in '84, and it is my dream to see them win another title before I die. I have a very good feeling about this year if they can keep up the good work.

[HDH]

Its a near miracle that the Tigers are doing so well with Jones at the end of the game. His ERA hovers ± 7.00. The problem is he's actually getting worse. I like teams with a strong relief corps. However, there needs to be at least a stable closer for the middle relief to be affective. It seems that the only series they loose is because of Jones and Jones only. We can't say that the infielders are plaing soft behind him. He's simply being tagged. I will be dissapointed if Jones isn't moved soon. They tolerated less from last year's relievers Ugueth Urbina and Kyle Farnsworth.

[racosun]

By "move" I'm sure you mean move Jones to a different role instead of the closer. Because it would be nearly impossible to move him to a different team. Leyland never seems to run out of excuses as to why Jones just blew another one. Another masterful managerial stroke, truly. He claims to know what he's doing by sticking with Jones, so we'll see. It really is hard to argue with the man when he's got the best team in baseball, regardless of Jonesy. Me, I'd let ol' Zumaya have a go at the closer role, but what the hell do I know?

[HDH]

I want to see hom move to another team. Someone will almost always take a chance on a closer. He did well in the NL; he may do well there again.