Little quiz

[Bill Burgess]

A. How many underhand (submarine) pitchers can you name since 1900?

B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at one time, artificial surfaces?

Bill Burgess

[Utter Chaos]

A. How many underhand (submarine) pitchers can you name since 1900?

Carl Mays
Ted Abernathy
Cecil Upshaw
Kent Tekulve
Dan Quisenberry
Chad Bradford
Matt Miller
Mike Myers
Byung-Hyun Kim

[Brooklyn]

Elden Auker

[JohnGelnarFan]

Wasn't Gene Garber a submariner?

[Erik Bedard]

I'd give Chad Bradford the "Most Submarine" award.

Also, Howard Ehmke threw "low sidearm, almost underhand"

[Bill Burgess]

Also, Howard Ehmke threw "low sidearm, almost underhand"

Almost? You were saying?

[Erik Bedard]

Almost? You were saying?

If it WERE underhand, his arm would be a 180-degree angle, not a 160-degree angle, or whatever that is. But I still got it right, didn't I?

[Erik Bedard]

B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at once time, artificial surfaces?

I think all of them that are in use today.

[Bill Burgess]

If it WERE underhand, his arm would be a 180-degree angle, not a 160-degree angle, or whatever that is. But I still got it right, didn't I?
Yes, you did. Thank you for participating!

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

I think all of them that are in use today.

I believe PacBell Park (Giants) never did. And Comiskey Park III didn't, I don't believe. And Yankee Stadium never did. Not the old one or the renovated, re-constructed one.

Bill

[Erik Bedard]

I believe PacBell Park (Giants) never did. And Comiskey Park III didn't, I don't believe. And Yankee Stadium never did. Not the old one or the renovated, re-constructed one.

Bill

I think they all currently do. Yes, every single park in the majors. And quite a few in the minors, too.

[cooldrive]

Dick Hyde (great year in 1958)

[Bill Burgess]

Was Joe McGinnity an underhand pitcher?

[JohnGelnarFan]

Boy,that's a good one! How did you find him? You must read the baseball encyclopedia like a regular book. You earned your stripes today cooldrive! ;)





Dick Hyde (great year in 1958)

[janduscframe]

I think Odell Jones went submarine right at the tail end of his career.s

[Budtaff]

Carl Mays
Ted Abernathy
Cecil Upshaw
Kent Tekulve
Dan Quisenberry
Chad Bradford
Matt Miller
Mike Myers
Byung-Hyun Kim

Terry Leach (Mets in the late 80's) threw sidearm
Mike Venafro (lefty more recently) I believe threw sidearm as well.

[mordeci]

Phillip Rivers

[janduscframe]

Ron Tompkins

[VIBaseball]

Terry Leach (Mets in the late 80's) threw sidearm.

Submariners are one of my pet topics, I love that this came up.

I remember Leach very well as a Mets fan. I would call his arm angle low sidearm, closer to submarine.

The late Steve Olin was like that too. Dan Quisenberry himself called Steve "the submariner of the future" before the terrible boat accident claimed Olin's life (and that of Tim Crews too).

Jim Dougherty, a late '90s reliever, also comes to mind.

Kelly Wunsch, along with Mike Myers, is one of the rare lefty submariners.

Steve Reed is a low sidearm type, a 3:30 arm angle, as were Mark Eichhorn, Todd Frohwirth, and Jeff Innis.

For some reason, there have been a lot of submariners over the years in the Japanese leagues. I've seen a lot of references in passing and intend to compile a list. I want to find out more about why.

I've also seen references to Negro Leaguers, including the successful Dizzy Dismukes (who apparently taught Carl Mays).

[Utter Chaos]

Phillip RiversVince Young and Bernie Kosar :confused:

[Bill Burgess]

Kelly Wunsch, along with Mike Myers, is one of the rare lefty submariners.

For some reason, there have been a lot of submariners over the years in the Japanese leagues. I've seen a lot of references in passing and intend to compile a list. I want to find out more about why.

I've also seen references to Negro Leaguers, including the successful Dizzy Dismukes (who apparently taught Carl Mays).
Interestingly, I've never seen a lefty submariner in my life. And I never even thought about it to this very moment. Hmm. I wonder why.

I've also heard that the Japanese leagues have a few submariners.

And I've NEVER heard that Dizzy taught Carl Mays. Any sources you remember that you could cite. Not challenging you at all, just find that cool.

Thanks everyone for all this wonderful feedback. Didn't realize there were so many until we see it all compiled like this.

I also seem to remember that Don Drysdale threw fairly low, like Walter Johnson. And didn't Ewell Blackwell sling low. Called cross-fire.

I remember reading that Walter Johnson, who threw a low sidearm, (not true sidearm, but very low) once musing out loud in an interview, why more pitchers didn't give his style more of a chance. He thought his style was so much more natural, and put so less stress on the arm. He compared it to skipping stones over a pond.

Bill Burgess

[VIBaseball]

Interestingly, I've never seen a lefty submariner in my life. And I never even thought about it to this very moment. Hmm. I wonder why.

Bill, I've heard a theory that because lefties live in a righty world, they tend to use their dominant arm "over the top" for things like opening doors, writing, etc. It applies to pitching and bowling too.


And I've NEVER heard that Dizzy taught Carl Mays. Any sources you remember that you could cite. Not challenging you at all, just find that cool.

From Rob Neyer's web page, http://www.robneyer.com/book_04_extras1.html

Dizzy Dismukes (Negro Leagues)
Webster McDonald: "He was an underhand pitcher, and he's the man I learned it from. Who's the boy with the Yankees hit that boy and killed him? Carl Mays. Dismukes taught him how to pitch in World War I overseas."
Source: Voices From the Great Black Baseball Leagues (John Holway, 1975)

I want to see if this is mentioned in Mike Sowell's The Pitch That Killed. Maybe the McDonald account is apocryphal.

The Neyer/James guide to pitchers has complete lists of knuckleballers and submariners. There are also assorted lists online -- the Knuckleball HQ page is a fun one.

[Johnny Seven]

Kelly Wunsch, along with Mike Myers, is one of the rare lefty submariners.

If you include video games, in MVP 2004, my closer from 2032-2040 was a lefty submariner named Ivan Valdez.

[Bill Burgess]

If you include video games, in MVP 2004, my closer from 2032-2040 was a lefty submariner named Ivan Valdez.Now THAT is a crucial nugget.

[janduscframe]

Anyone know how often any of the submariners cited went on the dl with arm problems? It seems like it was quite a rare occurence. If I remember correctly,Tompkins had some arm trouble which he attributed to his offseason job running a jack hammer.

[baseball=my life]

mike myers :laugh

[VIBaseball]

On whether Dizzy Dismukes (Negro Leagues) taught Carl Mays the submarine style -- I now believe he did not:


Webster McDonald: "He was an underhand pitcher, and he's the man I learned it from. Who's the boy with the Yankees hit that boy and killed him? Carl Mays. Dismukes taught him how to pitch in World War I overseas."
Source: Voices From the Great Black Baseball Leagues (John Holway, 1975)

I want to see if this is mentioned in Mike Sowell's The Pitch That Killed. Maybe the McDonald account is apocryphal.

No mention of Dismukes in The Pitch That Killed. The book says that Mays came down with a sore arm playing for Portland in 1913. He saw Joe McGinnity still playing for Tacoma at age 42 and decided to switch. He worked on the delivery with help from his manager, Billy Sullivan (1906 White Sox catcher). Two years later he was in the majors.

Also -- and I find this more conclusive -- the book says that Mays did not get sworn into the Army until November 6, 1918. And he never made it out of St. Louis because his unit got hit by the influenza pandemic. He was discharged a few weeks later.

Webster McDonald must have been thinking of someone or something else.

[redbuck]

B.

Astrodome
Olympic Stadium
The Vet
Old Busch
Three Rivers
Riverfront
Candlestick
Kingdome
Skydome
Exposition Stadium
Tropicana
Metrodome
Kauffman

Special Occasion MLB parks
Tokyo Dome
San Juan Stadium

[soberdennis]

I think all of them that are in use today.
There are a lot of parks that have always used natural grass in use today, including the 5 oldest parks
Fenway
Wrigley
yankee
Dodger
Shea
All of them have always had grass.
Petco Park is also grass. I think most if not all new parks are grass.

[Erik Bedard]

There are a lot of parks that have always used natural grass in use today, including the 5 oldest parks
Fenway
Wrigley
yankee
Dodger
Shea
All of them have always had grass.
Petco Park is also grass. I think most if not all new parks are grass.

Incorrect. The question states playing surfaces, not grass.

[soberdennis]

Incorrect. The question states playing surfaces, not grass.
Explain to me what you mean by an artificial playing surface, then. Somebody says every park does. But I was under the impression that ARtificial meant Astroturf or one of the derivatives. I was listing the ones that don't.

[Bill Burgess]

MapleSyrupMan,

soberdennisthemenace was simply correcting the poster who said that ALL past ballparks had used synthetic surfaces.

He was listing those which had NOT. So good for him.

Bill

[Alibi Ike]

B.

Astrodome
Olympic Stadium
The Vet
Old Busch
Three Rivers
Riverfront
Candlestick
Kingdome
Skydome
Exposition Stadium
Tropicana
Metrodome
Kauffman

Special Occasion MLB parks
Tokyo Dome
San Juan Stadium

Didn't [Old] Comiskey also have the turf infield, grass outfield for a while?

[Utter Chaos]

Incorrect. The question states playing surfaces, not grass.Incorrect. The question status "B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at one time, artificial surfaces?", not playing surfaces.

[Erik Bedard]

Incorrect. The question status "B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at one time, artificial surfaces?", not playing surfaces.

Whatever. Still, could Bill please define "artificial surfaces"? I was under the impression that artificial meant anything other than grass, rocks, and dirt.

[Alibi Ike]

Whatever. Still, could Bill please define "artificial surfaces"? I was under the impression that artificial meant anything other than grass, rocks, and dirt.

I still think that stands. I believe "The question states playing surfaces, not grass." was in reference to the posts discussing places that have grass surfaces.

[Bill Burgess]

My brothers,

No need to get excited. I have always hated anything other than grass/dirt. So I was asking which ballparks had anything other than the real, old-fashioned type of surfaces. So that was the intention behind my simple question.


B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at one time, artificial surfaces?

Sorry for the inexactitude.

Bill

[Erik Bedard]

So, are we counting rubberized warning tracks or not?

Either way, not all of them have them. I stand corrected.

[soberdennis]

MapleSyrupMan,

soberdennisthemenace was simply correcting the poster who said that ALL past ballparks had used synthetic surfaces.

He was listing those which had NOT. So good for him.

Bill
Thank you that was exactly what I was doing.
I think the incorrect poster said all current parks.
I know the original questionsaid artificial.

[Erik Bedard]

MapleSyrupMan,

soberdennisthemenace was simply correcting the poster who said that ALL past ballparks had used synthetic surfaces.

He was listing those which had NOT. So good for him.

Bill

Yes, and he was incorrect in his statement. Fenway Park and Dodger Stadium, to name a couple, both used artificial surfaces at one point. Fenway, I think, still uses it today.

[Erik Bedard]

Thank you that was exactly what I was doing.
I think the incorrect poster said all current parks.
I know the original question said artificial.

Excuse me?

Did you just call me incorrect? I'm very correct. I never said anything about them having artificial whatevers, I just said the question stated playing surfaces, and also that you were incorrect.

[soberdennis]

I still think that stands. I believe "The question states playing surfaces, not grass." was in reference to the posts discussing places that have grass surfaces.
Understood, as has already been stated, I was responding to an incorrect statement by someone else. If you read my post, you'll realize that. I agree that you were asking for artificial surfaces. But I was not answering the question in my post.

[soberdennis]

Yes, and he was incorrect in his statement. Fenway Park and Dodger Stadium, to name a couple, both used artificial surfaces at one point. Fenway, I think, still uses it today.
Fenway Park uses grass today. Ibelieve that both of those stadiums always have. In fact the Baseball almanac lists Fenway's surface since 1912 as bluegrass. That is not artificial. Ask any Kentuckian.

[soberdennis]

It sounds to me like we are arguing about semantics. I always understood artificial surface to refer to the turf. If you are considering something else, than we might both be right depending on how we interpret the question.

[Bill Burgess]

In the context of my original question, I was referring to anything other than grass/dirt.

Astroturf, grasstex, that plastic green stuff they put around swimming pools, etc. And I was not even thinking about warning tracks. That never occurred to me.

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

Is there a single ML ballpark in use today that does NOT have a grass surface?

Bill Burgess

[Gee Walker]

Is there a single ML ballpark in use today that does NOT have a grass surface?

Bill Burgess

Rogers Centre (Toronto) uses "field turf"

Metrodome (Minnesota) uses old-style Astroturf, as far as I know.

[rugbyfreak]

Interestingly, I've never seen a lefty submariner in my life. And I never even thought about it to this very moment. Hmm. I wonder why.

I've also heard that the Japanese leagues have a few submariners.

And I've NEVER heard that Dizzy taught Carl Mays. Any sources you remember that you could cite. Not challenging you at all, just find that cool.

Thanks everyone for all this wonderful feedback. Didn't realize there were so many until we see it all compiled like this.

I also seem to remember that Don Drysdale threw fairly low, like Walter Johnson. And didn't Ewell Blackwell sling low. Called cross-fire.

I remember reading that Walter Johnson, who threw a low sidearm, (not true sidearm, but very low) once musing out loud in an interview, why more pitchers didn't give his style more of a chance. He thought his style was so much more natural, and put so less stress on the arm. He compared it to skipping stones over a pond.

Bill Burgess

Bill: Yanks currently have a southpaw submariner: Mike Myers, acquired for the specific purpose (so we're told) of getting out Big Papi.

[Bill Burgess]

Bill: Yanks currently have a southpaw submariner: Mike Myers, acquired for the specific purpose (so we're told) of getting out Big Papi.
OK. Thanks, rugbyfreak.

Bill

[carlos_delgado021]

the only underhand pitcher i know of is mike myers

[ACrank]

Wasn't Steve Reed - Braves, Rockies, Indians, and i think Giants a submariner?

[Bill Burgess]

Wasn't Steve Reed - Braves, Rockies, Indians, and i think Giants a submariner?
I don't know, but that's a good question. Anyone take a shot?

[Dodgerfan1]

I seem to recall as a kid in the late '60s watching a pitcher for the A's named Ed Sprague (father of the Toronto third baseman) throw submarine-style. Upon plugging his name into my favorite search engine (I would say 'Googling' if I used Google), I came up with several references to Sprague but none that referred to him as a submariner. Is my memory failing me? I'm pretty sure the A's of that era had such a pitcher and I could have sworn it was Sprague.

[Old Sweater]

Is Brian Fuentes considered a submariner or is Mike Myers considered a side winder?

[Tacosaregood/metsguy234]

I'll take a shot at this one without reading the other responses so far...


A. How many underhand (submarine) pitchers can you name since 1900?
-Joe Smith
-Chad Bradford
-Damn... I need to pay more attention to pitchers...lol
B. How many ballparks can you name which had, at one time, artificial surfaces?
-Rogers Center/SkyDome
-Astrodome
-Candlestick Park? I know the Giants had turf at least once...
-Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome? Seems like most domes have turf...

[RuthMayBond]

Tekulve & Quisenberry?

[janduscframe]

Sprague was a submariner and had a bit of success with Milwaukee and then ripped his knee up and that was that.

I believe Milwaukee had three left handed submariners in camp this spring, Shouse, Stetler, and Choate.

Anyone seeing a harder throwing submariner than Neshek of the Twins? Or is it just me? He's fun to watch...