Best outside the Hall by position and era

[leecemark]

--We've had plenty of threads about best players by position outside Cooperstown. I think we've discussed best player from each era not in the Hall as well. I'd like to combine the two here. The cross era comparisons can be difficult, escpecially for those fare removed in time. There is merit to the idea that being amoung the best of your own is deserving regardless of where you stack up all time.
--I'll be going position by position and offering up my best available candidate for each by generational breakdowns. Please feel free to comment on my selections or offer up your own.
--The era breakdowns for the purposes of this thread;
19th Century (19): pretty self explanatory
Deadball (DB): anyone whose career was mostly between 1900 and 1920
Between the Wars (WW): anyone whose career was mostly between WWI-WWII.
Negro Leagues (NeL): another self explanatory category
Golden Age (GA): anyone whose career was mostly from WWII to 1969 (the second expansion and start of divisional play).
Modern Age (MA): anyone whose career was mostly after 1969 and who has been retired long enough to be eligible.

[leecemark]

19: Charlie Bennett - the first great career catcher
DB: Wally Schang - at least arguably better than the two DB catchers who have made it
WW: Jimmie Wilson? - nobody I'd support anyway
NeL: Quincy Troupe - borderline quality guy as near as I can tell
GA: Bill Freehan and Joe Torre are both clearly qualified
MA: Ted Simmons - amoung catching leaders in almost every hitting category

[leecemark]

19: Joe Start - he was Cap Anson before Cap Anson
DB: Ed Konetchy - nor quite there for me
WW: Jack Fournier - better than Kelley and perhaps Bottomley amoung contempory HoF 1B's
NeL: Ben Taylor - probably actually the best DB 1B
GA: Dick Allen - an all timer when motivated
MA: Kieth Hernandez - good bat with best glove ever = HoF IMO

[leecemark]

19: Ross Barnes - short career, but dominating peak
DB: Larry Doyle - maybe best NL player of the 1910s
WW: Joe Gordon - great player, career a little short even with war credit
NeL: Bill Monroe - deadball slugger
GA: Dick McAuliffe - a favorite, but not a HoFer
MA: Bobby Grich - vies with Gordon for most deserving (Whitaker also better than some other era guys)

[leecemark]

19: Deacon White - maybe the best unselected players of his generation
DB: Henie Groh - a little under my line, but has a decent argument
WW: Stan Hack - arguably better than Traynor
NeL: John Beckwith - a earlier Dick Allen
GA: Ron Santo - best player outside the Coop (Boyer also deserving)
MA: Graig Nettles - great glove and excellent power numbers

[leecemark]

19: Jack Glasscock - arguably best 19th century SS period
DB: Bill Dahlen - clearly deserving
WW: Dick Bartell? - this era is overrepresented enough that a team of best uninducted players would probably be the weakest of any era
NeL: Dobie Moore - monster peak
GA: Vern Stephens - probably better hitter than any of his contemporaries who did make it
MA: Alan Trammell - best of this group

[leecemark]

19: Harry Stovey - one of best 1800s sluggers
DB: Sherry Magee - should have been an easy selection
WW: Bob Johnson - almost as good as Goslin/Medwick and better than Hafey/Manush
NeL: Gene Bensen - an earlier (and not as good) Tony Gwynn type
GA: Minnie Minoso - a crime he isn't in
ME: Jim Rice - although Albert Belle would argue the point

[leecemark]

19: Paul Hines - dominating player who career totals are held back by short seasons in the early days
DB: Ginger Beaumont - key member of early Pirates dynasty
WW: Wally Berger - great player, but very short career
NeL: Spot Poles - looks like he belongs to me
GA: Vada Pinson - good, but not great for both peak and career
MA: Dale Murphy - one of many 80s players getting the shaft

[leecemark]

19: Nobody - this was the weakest position in the early days and the guys with any claim have been inducted
DB: Gavy Craveth - HR king of the no HR days
WW: Charlie Keller - great hitter for a brief time
NeL: Willard Brown - although like 19th century this seems to be a weak position
GA: Tony OLiva - he was the Clemente of the AL before his knees gave out
MA: Andre Dawson - also the #2 man in CF if you slot him there (there are half a dozen other decent candidates from this period as well)

[yest]

C
19 : Deacon White if you want him at 3rd instead Cal Mcvey
DB: Johnny Kling
1B
DB: Jake Daubert
WW: George H. Burns
MA: Don Mattingly
2B
DB: Del Pratt
WW: Bill Meyer
3B
19 : Levi Meyerle (if Decaon is where he belongs)
MA: Bill Madlock
SS
GA: Harvey Kuenn
LF
DB: Bobby Veach
WW: George J. Burns
CF
19: Pete Browning
MA: Al Oliver
RF:
MA: Dave Parker

[yest]

NeL: Ben Taylor - probably actually the best DB 1B
NeL: Willard Brown - although like 19th century this seems to be a weak position

they made it

[SABR Matt]

I like this idea Mark...I'll work on a list based on my research and see how much we have in common. :)

[baseballPAP]

OK Mark...just found this posting...I very much like the concept. I skipped through your picks so as to not put names in my own head...here goes, using your own categories:

CATCHER
Jack Clements-only LH cathcer with any longetivity, monster peak
Johnny Kling-rated highly by his peers
Gus Mancuso-yuck
Bill Freehan-should be in already
Ted Simmons-see above
none that I can think of

FIRST BASE
Joe Start-LQ obviously a concern, storied career too much to ignore
Ed Konetchy-gets no credit, great all around player
Dolph Camilli-huge stick, short career
Gil Hodges-if leadership were quantifiable he'd be in
Keith Hernandez-good bat, great glove
none that I can think of

SECOND BASE
Cupid Childs-awesome stats, OBP career .416, OPS+ 119
Larry Doyle-a crime he isn't there already
Joe Gordon-too short a career, but great glove and a solid stick
Bobby Avila-yuck
Bobby Grich-apologies to Sweet Lou
Bingo DeMoss-very good all around but didn't stand out except maybe with the glove

THIRD BASE
Billy Nash-best glove before Collins, solid stick, good OBP
Heinie Groh-extremely underrated due to his era
Harlond Clift-see Joe Gordon above, without the glove
Santo/Boyer-both should be in
Sal Bando-severly underrated due to low BA
John Beckwith-how did he miss the cut this year?

SHORTSTOP
Jack Glasscock-earlier Ozzie Smith
Bill Dahlen-actually had best years pre 1900, solid for many years
Vern Stephens-helped by his parks, but still better than Reese/Rizzuto
Jim Fregosi-no standout anywhere, solid everywhere
Alan Trammell-should be in
Dick Lundy-could have went Dobie Moore also

LEFT FIELD
Harry Stovey-unheard almost, great slugger of the 1880s, many SBs too
Sherry Magee-overshadowed by others, but no slouch himself
Bob Johnson-poor man's DiMaggio...OK very poor man's DiMaggio
Minnie Minoso-with his NeL play also should be a lock, even with late start
Jim Rice-even with the park effects
Wild Bill Wright- NeL triple crown winner, missed SB lead by one same year!

CENTER FIELD
Pete Browning-they named the bats after him for cryin' out loud!
Cy Seymour-blazed the way for the Babe(P to OF), 1905 was incredible
Wally Berger- great, but flamed out fast
Jimmy Wynn-just for you Chris ;)
Dale Murphy-should make it, probably won't
Spot Poles-"the Black Ty Cobb", 'nuff said.

RIGHT FIELD
Mike Tiernan-short career, or he'd be better than Keeler
Gavvy Cravath-still had the power in other parks, see? (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Gavvy_Cravath)
Babe Herman-short career, monster peak
Roger Maris-see above
Dave Parker-slugger late, but early could do it all

OTHERS
Deacon White- 3B/C/1B should be in
Dick Allen- 3B/LF/1B misunderstood slugger with the awesome #s
Hal McRae- probably not worthy, but nobody ever brings him up :)

[538280]

Gil Hodges-if leadership were quantifiable he'd be in


Great job PAP, but I just have a problem with this. I know Hodges was a great man and all, but he's just not a good enough player to make the HOF. His numbers (which I guess are pretty good) are inflated by era and park, his OPS+ is 120. 120 OPS+ is about average for a 1B, and it's not like he has Tony Perez longevity or much of a peak either. Even though he is a great man and certainly a team leader, I just can't see him in.

I've seen some Dodger fans say he's better than Dick Allen. I'm sorry, there's no amount of intangibles (on either side) that can make that true.

[RuthMayBond]

Pitcher
19-JMcCormick, Mullane
DB-JQuinn?
WW-DLeonard (or in GA), Bridges
GA-Pierce, Trout
MA-Blyleven, Saberhagen

Catcher
19-Deacon White if he can be pegged catcher
DB-?
WW-Schang
GA-Torre (or in MA)
MA-Simmons, BDowning if he can be pegged catcher, Tenace

First
19-Tenney (or in DB), HLarkin
DB-Konetchy
WW-Fournier
GA-Allen (or in MA), Cash
MA-McGriff, WClark

Second
19-HRichardson
DB-LDoyle, Pratt (or WW)
WW-Gordon (or GA), BMyer
GA-JGilliam
MA-Grich

Third
19-LCross
DB-TLeach
WW-Hack
GA-Santo
MA-DaEvans

Short
19-Dahlen (or DB), HLong
DB-DBush?
WW-Bartell
GA-VStephens
MA-TFernandez

Left
19-Stovey
DB-SMagee
WW-Bob Johnson
GA-FHoward
MA-JoCruz

Center
19-Van Haltren
DB-TLeach if he can be pegged CF, Roy Thomas
WW-Cy Williams
GA-JWynn (or MA), WiDavis
MA-Dawson if he can be pegged CF

Right
19-Tiernan
DB-Cravath
WW-DiWalker
GA-Colavito
MA-DwEvans

Flame away

[RuthMayBond]

2B

WW: Bill MeyerDoesn't sound familiar

[leecemark]

--He's your Buddy;) .

[baseballPAP]

Great job PAP, but I just have a problem with this. I know Hodges was a great man and all, but he's just not a good enough player to make the HOF. His numbers (which I guess are pretty good) are inflated by era and park, his OPS+ is 120. 120 OPS+ is about average for a 1B, and it's not like he has Tony Perez longevity or much of a peak either. Even though he is a great man and certainly a team leader, I just can't see him in.

I've seen some Dodger fans say he's better than Dick Allen. I'm sorry, there's no amount of intangibles (on either side) that can make that true.
I didn't say that I thought all of the players mentioned were HOFers....just that they're the best from each era not in the HOF already. In Hodges' case, his "stiff" competition was from Mickey Vernon, Ted Kluszewski and Joe Adcock. Norm Cash was probably the best of the competition, but he "loses" a few years(including one of his better ones in 1971) to the split of the eras, and I discount 1961 a bit because its such an anomaly from the rest of his career.

There are a bunch of guys on my list I don't think are HOF worthy, maybe 50%.

[leecemark]

--Not all the guys on my list are Hall worthy either. You can't make a full team from all (any?) era of qualified Hall of Famers who have been snubbed. The Between the Wars era has been picked so clean there are only a couple guy from any position I'd consider.

[Brooklyn]

Mark - intersting project. Wondering if you've thought of doing pitchers, too.

when this is said and done, I'm wondering which one of the era teams you think would win? I've long since thought that the 70's / 80's were under representated in Cooperstown, and was curious the post 1969 team would in fact have the best team of players not in the HOF

[leecemark]

--I think the more recently retired players have been underrepresented in Cooperstown, in comparison with players from the first half of the 20th century. There are some great 60s players (Santo, Allen) outside the Hall and some of the best players of the 70s and 80s have gotten the shaft. There is no doubt in my mind that a team made up of the most recent oversights would beat any of the other groups.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Pitcher
19-JMcCormick, Mullane
DB-JQuinn?
WW-DLeonard (or in GA), Bridges
GA-Pierce, Trout
MA-Blyleven, Schilling

Catcher
19-Deacon White if he can be pegged catcher
DB-?
WW-Schang
GA-Torre (or in MA)
MA-Simmons, BDowning if he can be pegged catcher, Tenace

First
19-Tenney (or in DB), HLarkin
DB-Konetchy
WW-Fournier
GA-Allen (or in MA), Cash
MA-McGriff, WClark

Second
19-HRichardson
DB-LDoyle, Pratt (or WW)
WW-Gordon (or GA)
GA-JGilliam
MA-Grich

Third
19-LCross
DB-TLeach
WW-Hack
GA-Santo
MA-DaEvans

Short
19-Dahlen (or DB), HLong
DB-DBush?
WW-Bartell
GA-VStephens
MA-TFernandez

Left
19-Stovey
DB-SMagee
WW-Bob Johnson
GA-FHoward
MA-JoCruz

Center
19-Van Haltren
DB-TLeach if he can be pegged CF, Roy Thomas
WW-Cy Williams
GA-JWynn (or MA), WiDavis
MA-Dawson if he can be pegged CF

Right
19-Tiernan
DB-Cravath
WW-DiWalker
GA-Colavito
MA-DwEvans

Flame away
Not a flame, but Schilling, the best of the non-obvious HOF pitchers of the current era (Glavine is obvious, Smoltz is a hair behind) is still active and not exactly eligible here.

[RuthMayBond]

Not a flame, but Schilling, the best of the non-obvious HOF pitchers of the current era (Glavine is obvious, Smoltz is a hair behind) is still active and not exactly eligible here.Thanks, my bad, I fixed it

[538280]

I didn't say that I thought all of the players mentioned were HOFers....just that they're the best from each era not in the HOF already. In Hodges' case, his "stiff" competition was from Mickey Vernon, Ted Kluszewski and Joe Adcock. Norm Cash was probably the best of the competition, but he "loses" a few years(including one of his better ones in 1971) to the split of the eras, and I discount 1961 a bit because its such an anomaly from the rest of his career.

There are a bunch of guys on my list I don't think are HOF worthy, maybe 50%.

All right, but you said "if leadership were quantifiable he'd be in", which made me believe you thought he was deserving. I'll try this, BTW, trying not to look at others ballots:

Catcher:
19-Deacon White (if he's a catcher. If not Charlie Bennett )
DB-Johnny Kling? No good candidates here.
WW-Wally Schang
NeL-Quincy Trouppe
GA-Joe Torre
MA-Ted Simmons

First Base:
19-Joe Start, though Dave Orr or Henry Larkin are better statistically
DB-Ed Konetchy
WW-Mickey Vernon
Nel-Ben Taylor
GA-Dick Allen (or in MA)
MA-Will Clark or Keith Hernandez. Too close to call.

Second Base:
19-Cupid Childs
DB-Larry Doyle
WW-Joe Gordon
Nel-Bingo DeMoss
GA-Jim Gilliam or Dick McAuliffe
MA-Grich, Whitaker, Randolph. All 3 have probably gotten snubbed.

Third Base
19-Deacon White again if 3B. Otherwise Lave Cross
DB-Heinie Groh
WW-Bob Elliot (or GA)
Nel-Oliver Marcelle
GA-Ron Santo
MA-Sal Bando-puzzles me why he doesn't get more support

Shortstop
19-Jack Glasscock
DB-Bill Dahlen
WW-Dick Bartell
Nel-Dobie Moore
GA-Jim Fregosi
MA-Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez also deserves a mention

Left Field
19-Harry Stovey
DB-Sherry Magee
WW-Charlie Keller
NeL-Pete Hill
GA-Frank Howard
MA-Jose Cruz

Center Field
19-Paul Hines, also Ryan and Van Haltren worth mention
DB-Cy Seymour
WW-Wally Berger, better than Hack Wilson
NeL-Spot Poles-Not worthy of the "black Ty Cobb" or the HOF, but still very, very good
GA-Jimmy Wynn
MA-Cesar Cedeno

Right Field
19-Mike Tiernan?
DB-Gavy Cravath
WW-Dixie Walker
NeL-Wild Bill Wright, weak field once Willard Brown was elected.
GA-Tony Oliva
MA-Bobby Bonds, but tons of good candidates (Parker, Singleton, Dawson, Staub, Evans, Murcer)

[Fuzzy Bear]

19: Joe Start - he was Cap Anson before Cap Anson
DB: Ed Konetchy - nor quite there for me
WW: Jack Fournier - better than Kelley and perhaps Bottomley amoung contempory HoF 1B's
NeL: Ben Taylor - probably actually the best DB 1B
GA: Dick Allen - an all timer when motivated
MA: Kieth Hernandez - good bat with best glove ever = HoF IMO

I might rate Stuffy McInnis ahead of Konetchy; he was a tremendous defensive 1B who could hit for average, and was a plus on defense.

[538280]

I might rate Stuffy McInnis ahead of Konetchy; he was a tremendous defensive 1B who could hit for average, and was a plus on defense.

No way I would. McInnis had a 105 OPS+, really not very good at all for a 1Bman. Konetchy was at 122. If these were middle infielders, I'd take a guy if he's a much better defender, but this is first base, where the hitters rule. Konetchy's easily a better player.

One strange thing about McInnis is that he started off a really good hitter, but then tailed off to a merely good one, then an average one, and by the end of his career he was a pretty horrible hitter for a 1Bman. So, his hitting pretty much steadily declined through his whole career. Is there anyone else who has a career pattern quite like that?

[leecemark]

--I don't know that McInnis changed so much as the game did. He had no power and as that became more important he became less valuable.

[Fuzzy Bear]

19: Harry Stovey - one of best 1800s sluggers
DB: Sherry Magee - should have been an easy selection
WW: Bob Johnson - almost as good as Goslin/Medwick and better than Hafey/Manush
NeL: Gene Bensen - an earlier (and not as good) Tony Gwynn type
GA: Minnie Minoso - a crime he isn't in
ME: Jim Rice - although Albert Belle would argue the point

Can't see how Rice is ahead of Belle; Belle was more productive per season and hit into many fewer DPs.

[leecemark]

--Belle rates are higher because; a) he didn't play as long dragging down his rates and b) it was easier to separate from the league in the 90s than the 70s. Also it is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats. Rice was a more celebrated player in his day than Belle in his. I know some don't care about that, but it is a factor for me.

[Fuzzy Bear]

--Belle rates are higher because; a) he didn't play as long dragging down his rates and b) it was easier to separate from the league in the 90s than the 70s. Also it is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats. Rice was a more celebrated player in his day than Belle in his. I know some don't care about that, but it is a factor for me.

Rice was a more celebrated player, but Belle was an unfairly maligned player. Belle was above league in OBP, Slugging, and OPS by a greater margin than Rice was for his career. Rice led the league in grounding into DPs four times; Belle only once. Rice's slide downward was slower than Belle's but if Belle had chosen to hang on a few more years, he probably would have had 420 HRs for his career, and his chances for the HOF would look rosier.

Rice was a more celebrated player than Belle; that is true. So was Kirk Gibson, Steve Garvey, and Keith Hernandez. Celebrity does not always equal quality.

[538280]

--Belle rates are higher because; a) he didn't play as long dragging down his rates and b) it was easier to separate from the league in the 90s than the 70s. Also it is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats. Rice was a more celebrated player in his day than Belle in his. I know some don't care about that, but it is a factor for me.

I sometimes can care a bit about perceptions, but in Rice's case he was horrifically overrated because RBI was horrifically overrated, they didn't adjust for park enough, and they didn't place the proper values on walks and GIDP. Rice was a product of improper interpretation of statistics, not because there was great insight on what a great, powerful hitter he was.

[baseballPAP]

I was trying to look up some background info on Rice recently, and came across 2 or 3 sources that claimed the Monster hurt him greatly, by turning would be HRs into singles because he didn't hit them high enough. Anyone watch him play enough to verify/deny this claim? I find it unlikely that this would have amounted to more than 8 or 10 balls a year, and that he probably hit many more doubles that would have been outs than singles that would have been HRs.

[leecemark]

--Rice was alot more of a line drive than fly ball hitter and the Monster may have actually cost him some HRs. His splits make it pretty clear that the net effect of Fenway was a strong positive for him though.

[Cougar]

--We've had plenty of threads about best players by position outside Cooperstown. I think we've discussed best player from each era not in the Hall as well. I'd like to combine the two here. The cross era comparisons can be difficult, escpecially for those fare removed in time. There is merit to the idea that being amoung the best of your own is deserving regardless of where you stack up all time.
--I'll be going position by position and offering up my best available candidate for each by generational breakdowns. Please feel free to comment on my selections or offer up your own.
--The era breakdowns for the purposes of this thread;
19th Century (19): pretty self explanatory
Deadball (DB): anyone whose career was mostly between 1900 and 1920
Between the Wars (WW): anyone whose career was mostly between WWI-WWII.
Negro Leagues (NeL): another self explanatory category
Golden Age (GA): anyone whose career was mostly from WWII to 1969 (the second expansion and start of divisional play).
Modern Age (MA): anyone whose career was mostly after 1969 and who has been retired long enough to be eligible.

I don't really know enough about the Negro Leagues to rank them.
Guys who really straddle eras I'll mark with a *.

Pitcher
19-Bob Caruthers, Bobby Mathews
DB-Wilbur Cooper / Carl Mays*
WW-Carl Mays* / Bucky Walters
GA- Billy Pierce or Mickey Lolich*
MA- Blyleven; also Kaat, John, Guidry, Tiant

Catcher
19-Deacon White
DB- Wally Schang*
WW- Schang*
GA- Joe Torre*, Elston Howard, Bill Freehan*
MA- Ted Simmons, Torre*, Thurman Munson

First
19- Dave Orr
DB- Ed Konetchy
WW-Frank McCormick, Charlie Grimm
GA- Gil Hodges, Mickey Vernon
MA- Bagwell, McGwire

Second
19- Ross Barnes or Cupid Childs
DB- Larry Doyle, Del Pratt
WW- Joe Gordon, Buddy Myer
GA- Bobby Richardson
MA- Lou Whitaker

Third
19- Lave Cross
DB- Heinie Groh
WW- Stan Hack, Al Rosen
GA- Ron Santo, Ken Boyer
MA- Graig Nettles, Darrell Evans

Short
19- Bill Dahlen*, Herman Long
DB- Bill Dahlen*, Roger Peckinpaugh
WW- Cecil Travis, Marty Marion, Johnny Pesky
GA- Vern Stephens, Dick Groat, Maury Wills, Campaneris*
MA- Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez, Campaneris*

Left
19- Harry Stovey, Pete Browning
DB- Sherry Magee, Bobby Veach*
WW-Bob Johnson, Lefty O'Doul
GA- Minnie Minoso
MA- Jim Rice, Albert Belle

Center
19- Geo. Van Haltren, Jimmy Ryan
DB- Cy Williams*
WW- Cy Williams*, Wally Berger, Doc Cramer, Dom DiMaggio
GA- Vada Pinson
MA- Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy

Right
19- Mike Tiernan
DB- Gavy Cravath
WW- Babe Herman
GA- Tony Oliva*, Maris, Colavito
MA- Dave Parker, Dwight Evans, Oliva*, (Dawson if at RF)

[Royal Rooter]

19: Ross Barnes - short career, but dominating peak
DB: Larry Doyle - maybe best NL player of the 1910s
WW: Joe Gordon - great player, career a little short even with war credit
NeL: Bill Monroe - deadball slugger
GA: Dick McAuliffe - a favorite, but not a HoFer
MA: Bobby Grich - vies with Gordon for most deserving (Whitaker also better than some other era guys)

For the MA, I would throw a lot of support behind Frank White. His average was comparable to Reggie Jacksons (which is not saying alot), not alot of power, but a good doubles hitter. In addition, he had one of the smoothest gloves in the game throughout the late 70's and 80's piling up 8 gold gloves. He was not a flashy player, which probably is why his following is limited to Royals fans, but he was a work horse that was smooth as silk.

[538280]

For the MA, I would throw a lot of support behind Frank White. His average was comparable to Reggie Jacksons (which is not saying alot), not alot of power, but a good doubles hitter.

Sure, he hit a lot of doubles. It doesn't make him a good hitter. He was well below league averages in OBP, and was also about 10-15 points below in BA and SLG. The doubles are nice, but they don't make him anything resembling a good hitter. His OPS+ is 85, which isn't even very good for a 2Bman.

In addition, he had one of the smoothest gloves in the game throughout the late 70's and 80's piling up 8 gold gloves. He was not a flashy player, which probably is why his following is limited to Royals fans, but he was a work horse that was smooth as silk.

He was a great fielder, and that will always be his calling card. But, although he was very, very good he was quite clearly not the best fielding 2Bman of all time. That distinction belongs to Bill Mazeroski, who is in the HOF. I don't really think Maz belongs in, because he wansn't extraordinarily valuable to his teams, but there is the added greatnesss factor in that he was the best fielding 2Bman who ever lived, according to comtemporary accounts as well as statistics. White was about the same hitter as Maz (not a compliment), and his fielding was just a little bit behind. Maz doesn't belong anywhere near the Hall of Value, and White's value is even lower. Maz is only a defensible selection with his subpar value because he was the best fielder ever at a key defensive position. White wasn't, so where's the case? He doesn't lack support because he wasn't flashy. No, he lacks it because he just wasn't good enough.

[Yankwood]

--Belle rates are higher because; a) he didn't play as long dragging down his rates and b) it was easier to separate from the league in the 90s than the 70s. Also it is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats. Rice was a more celebrated player in his day than Belle in his. I know some don't care about that, but it is a factor for me.This is a point which is so overlooked. There is no way we can or should compare the stats of Jim Rice with the stats of Albert Belle. Jim Rice was actually the dominant slugger of a 10 year period in the A.L. His era was not the slugger's paradise that Belle's was.

[RuthMayBond]

This is a point which is so overlooked. There is no way we can or should compare the stats of Jim Rice with the stats of Albert Belle. Jim Rice was actually the dominant slugger of a 10 year period in the A.L.You're overlooking Rice's park advantage

[Yankwood]

You're overlooking Rice's park advantageIt's too tough to measure. Now you're supposed to give me some sort of factor, so go ahead.

[RuthMayBond]

It's too tough to measure. Now you're supposed to give me some sort of factor, so go ahead.I don't have it offhand, but look through the Jim Rice threads. There's one started every week :laugh

[Cougar]

You're overlooking Rice's park advantage

Rice had a park advantage, to be sure.

However, it seems to me that except in very extreme cases (Baker Bowl, Coors Field), era effects trump park effects.

I don't think Fenway 1975-1990 was really that extreme.

[Yankwood]

I actually already did and although he benefitted at home, even his road splits for that era were very good. Besides, I'm a Yankee fan and when Rice came up to bat he scared the $hit out of us.

[Chisox]

I actually already did and although he benefitted at home, even his road splits for that era were very good. Besides, I'm a Yankee fan and when Rice came up to bat he scared the $hit out of us.
.277, .330, .459 was good for the era?
Curious, how about .267, .347, .449 (road) for the same era for a near exact contemporary?

[Yankwood]

.277, .330, .459 was good for the era?
Curious, how about .267, .347, .449 (road) for the same era for a near exact contemporary?Who was it?

[baseballPAP]

I'll step up for this one.
Fenway park factors from '74 through '89 for RH hitters:
singles:104%
doubles:131%
triples:110%
HR:116%

Assuming normal distribution for Rice, His totals would look like this for a neutral park (real home total in black, "adjusted" home totals in red, career in blue, adjusted career in green)

AB-4075/4075/8225/8225
H-1304/1190/2452/2338
2B-207/158/373/324
3B-44/40/79/75
HR-208/179/382/353
BA-.320/.292/.298/.284
SLG-.546/.482/.502/.471

Now you might further adjust the adjusted totals if you feel that some of the hits that were doubles in Fenway may have been singles in a neutral park, and the same for triples and HR. I did not do this, but it is theoretically plausible.

Does he still look like a Hall of Famer if you take away the Monster? Not to me.

[Yankwood]

My question is, though, who so far outdistances him for that era that he should not be given consideration. I still say he was one of the dominant sluggers for that decade which he excelled. In other words, who are the players that were better in terms of overall hitting?

[538280]

I am firmly opposed to putting Jim Rice in the HOF. His supposedly great, great peak really wasn't all that great when Fenway, GIDP, and all contexts are taken into consideration. After that peak and into his 30s he really wasn't a very valuable hitter.

The way I see the Jim Rice debate is that the people arguing for him are largely those who are unwilling to look beyond raw, unadjusted numbers, and mostly look at the triple crown stats. The people against him are those who are willing to make all adjustments neccessary and then look at the player after all those adjustments are made. The latter group will always be much, much more accurate and come up with a better picture of the overall player, and with Jim Rice they're hit the nail on the head.

When I was talking about Craig Biggio, I mentioned "little stats" (HBP, GIDP, sac hits) that by themselves don't mean much but if a player's little stats are all outstanding (like in the case of Biggio) it can make a BIG difference about how valuable the player is. Call Jim Rice the anti-Craig Biggio.

Think about it this way:

1.Jim Rice's OPS+ is 128. That's pretty good, and for a corner OF with a pretty long career and a good peak like Rice that could be enough to get him in the HOF, not as a slam dunk but it could. But, let's look at his offensive value outside of OPS+. Like Gee Walker said, Rice was a GIDP machine. The amont of DPs he grounded into was really ridiculous, and those GIDPs are horrible for a team. They pretty much eliminate a team's chances of scoring for an inning, and Rice was doing it 15+ times every single year, and most of the time he was over 20! He owns the two highest GIDP marks in history, and also the #6 season.

2.Jim Rice was an okay fielder, could be good in his younger days but overall not much better than average, probably slightly below. It's hard to see how his fielding increases any of his HOF credentials. He never really stole any bases either.

3.Rice wasn't really a good intangilble player. He got along horribly with reporters, of course. That's not the best way to judge intangibles (some players just don't do well with the media but are actually good in the clubhouse), but Jim Rice was known to even his teammates/managers to not be a nice guy. Here's a quote from one of Rice's former teammates, Bill Lee:

"No one could like Jim Rice. Jim Rice had one of the biggest egos I've ever seen. He treated people so abruptly, just had no neeed for anybody, gave no time back to the fans, just was not a nice person."

Now, not saying that being a bad guy disqualifies Rice for the HOF. There are jerks in the HOF, and certainly a few people who were worse than Rice. But, when you're on the fringe (like Rice is), this is a mark against you.

What do we have? A 128 OPS+ corner OF with little to no value outside of his hitting. In addition, because his "little stats" were so bad he was almost certainly a worse hitter than that OPS+ indicates. I don't see him as an HOF caliber player.

There is one more thing to address. One of things you most often hear a proponent of Rice mention is how he was "regarded as the best hitter in the game in the late 70s and early 80s". Well, with new methods we know now that he wasn't, except for probably in 1978. There's a difference between perception and reality. Even if he was thought of in that way it doesn't mean he actually was, and he wasn't.

Another link, Jim Rice vs. Roy White:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=521019&postcount=55

[BoSox Rule]

I never realized how bad this was on the internet: http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=442&mforum=sportsheaven

He IM'ed me to join his forum and I immediately noticed that post. He added the "courtest of baseball-fever" part after he knew I knew about the plagarisim. :laugh

[baseballPAP]

I never realized how bad this was on the internet: http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=442&mforum=sportsheaven

He IM'ed me to join his forum and I immediately noticed that post. He added the "courtest of baseball-fever" part after he knew I knew about the plagarisim. :laugh
I'm honored. We're so revered that others are stealing from us. :)

[538280]

I'm honored. We're so revered that others are stealing from us. :)

That's my attitude towards it as well. I would take it as an honor that I'm thought to be such a good, intelligent poster that someone would steal my own writing in an attempt to look smart.

[ElHalo]

I'm honored. We're so revered that others are stealing from us. :)

You'd be surprised how many people read this forum. Take a gander every now and then at how often we do an in-depth discussion of a topic, which a week later gets covered by national websites. It's happened five or six times with ESPN.com.

[jjpm74]

Now that the SOC is finished and the ultimate quest is well underway, it's a good time to revisit this topic. Here are my picks by position. Players in italics are guys I don't support as a HOF candidate.

Catchers

19: Charlie Bennett
DB: Johnny Kling (Maybe the best catcher of his era)
WW: Wally Schang (fits here about as well as he fits in the DB era)
NeL: Quincy Trouppe
GA: Bill Freehan
MA: Ted Simmons (one of the 5 top overlooked HOF candidates)

First Base

19: Joe Start (one of the best of his era and one my top 5 overlooked candidates)
DB: Jake Daubert (of eligible candidates)
WW: Dolph Camilli
NeL: Luke Easter
GA: Dick Allen (Probably fits in MA more)
MA: Will Clark

Second Base

19: Ross Barnes (short career or not, he edges out Childs, Richardson and others from his era)
DB: Larry Doyle (easily the best of his generation)
WW: Joe Gordon
NeL: Bill Monroe
GA: Dick McAuliffe
MA: Lou Whitaker

Third Base
19: Deacon White (was better known as a catcher)
DB: Heinie Groh
WW: Harlond Clift
NeL: Oliver Marcelle(one of the best defensive third basemen in the NeL)
GA: Ron Santo (how he isn't in the HOF is a total mystery to me)
MA: Howard Johnson

Short Stop

19: Jack Glasscock
DB: Bill Dahlen (one of my top 5 not in the HOF)
WW: Dick Bartell
NeL: John Beckwith (one of the most notable oversights of the last Veteran's Committee)
GA: Vern Stephens (a major oversight and one of the 25 best to field his position)
MA: Alan Trammell (how he's been overlooked is a complete mystery to me)

Outfielders *(I did not differentiate by field for OF)

19: Harry Stovey, Paul Hines, George Van Haltren
DB: Gavvy Cravath, Sherry Magee, Cy Seymour
WW: Ginger Beaumont, Bobby Veach, Jimmy Sheckard
NeL: Alejandro Oms, Chino Smith, Turkey Stearnes
GA: Minnie Minoso, Rocky Colavito, Frank Howard
MA: Albert Belle, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines

Pitchers

19: Tony Mullane, Bob Caruthers
DB: Jesse Tannehill, Smoky Joe Wood
WW: Wilbur Cooper, Urban Shocker
NeL: Dick Redding
GA: Don Newcombe, Billy Pierce
MA: Bert Blyleven, Ron Guidry, Luis Tiant, Dan Quisenberry (one of my top 5 not in the HOF)