Franceour's slump drawing unwanted attention

[grizzly451]

I've noticed several articles popping up about Franceour and some of them are quite knowledge, and back up their claims with stats not just hearsay. I found both of these through talkingchop.com

I thought you guys would be interested in a couple of them if you already haven't ready them.

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2006/04/25/tough_call_on_f.html

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2006/04/pondering-jeff-francoeur/

The second one is especially good in my opinion, to me it is quite interesting

I hope to get some discussion going about how you all feel Franceour is doing, will do, etc.

I've been wondering about him for a while, he obviously has a lot of power, his swing is very clean, good in the field. Should he be platooned at all? Certain situations? What options would the Braves have if they wanted to do something? The talk about the scouting reports on him made me think, I certainly never thought about it like that. But he did outplay his minor league performance in the majors for a while. Frenchy really needs to make some adjusts with his hitting whether its mentally or maybe his timing, his swing is pretty solid when I see it. Anytime you lead the Majors in swinging at first pitches, and you aren't Mad Vlad, then that probably isn't a good thing. Btw, Franceour is beating Vlad at that too.

There also is/was a thread in the coaching/fundamentals forum about his swing, has some video too.

This is the 'meat' of the AJC article in case anyone gets the login screen

He still hasn't drawn a walk, and he's swung at a majors-leading 55.7 percent of first pitches. Anaheim's Vlad Guerrero (54.9) is the only other major leaguer who's swung at as many as 47 percent of first pitches.
Finally, there's this: Francoeur hit .379 with 10 homers, 30 RBIs and a .734 slugging percentage in his first 33 games in the majors last season, through Aug. 20.

In 50 games since Aug. 28, he has a .207 average with seven homers, 22 RBIs and a .362 slugging percentage, with 44 strikeouts in 188 at-bats.

[grizzly451]

This one just is mainly discussion. But the people that post bring up some pretty good stats.
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2005/08/the-jeff-francoeur-game/

[41-44-VB]

Since he swings at so many pitches, maybe he should be told to take pitches until he gets a strike?

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Frenchy will come around, I'd give him 2 weeks and he should be back to his old self.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

And I just did the math, if you take away his 3 for 37 start, he's hitting .297. Now that's more like it.

[Eugenious]

But his OBP is going to be even lower than that, the 297 is fine, but if he never walks it makes it a VERY empty 297. Thats not Right Fielder stats, thats a 1960s short stop...

[grizzly451]

Don't get me wrong though, I think Frenchy has some great skills, his strikeout rate isn't that bad for a player these days, especially a young one. But his walk rate is horrible. I'm not saying he needs to walk 100+ times or anything like that, but even Vlad draws a fair number of walks to go along with his agressive nature at the plate. He still sees a better then average number of pitches per AB (I THINK). I guess I'm thinking more of a balance here. There is such a thing as being too aggressive, sometimes a walk is as good as a hit.

I'm sure he feels like he should swing, especially at the first pitch, but I think pitchers expect this and more often then not getting him 0-1 on bad pitches that may or may not be balls. I wish I had video of several games he's been in this season just to see what pitches are thrown at him the most as first pitches of his ABs. High, Low, Inside, Away. Fastballs, Changeups, Curveballs, etc.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

I wish I had video of several games he's been in this season just to see what pitches are thrown at him the most as first pitches of his ABs. High, Low, Inside, Away. Fastballs, Changeups, Curveballs, etc.

From what I've seen either low and away fastballs, or high and in fastballs.

[Eugenious]

I agree that strikeouts arent any worse than any other out, and consitency would definitley be good. What he needs is to actually take an approach at the plate and not just go in swinging. And unfortunately, he is not seeing a good number of pitches, he has one of the fewest pitches per plate appearances of anyone - only 3.1!!! WHen you factor in 18 Ks, which at a minimal give him 3 pitches per at bat, you can see how much he is flailing up there.
I'm not trying to rag on him, I like the kid, he's got tons of potential and a great attitude, but something has to be done.
These guys have something to say about it too, its buried in the middle of the first article, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you read the other stuff too...
http://bravesoxtalk.com/I-85_Club.html

[Brian McKenna]

i like him and he thrilled me last year but he has absolutely no plate discipline and seems destined for failure - he's fodder for the skilled pitchers

[foxxx]

He seems to be doing pretty good now. He is fifth in the NL in RBI, his average is rising steadily, and he's on pace to hit 25-30 homers. I read somewhere that one scout who followed him throughout his minor league career said that Jeff Francouer has always gone through slumps and hot streaks, almost exclusively, and there is usually not too much in between. But I think that will change too, Terry Pendleton made Andruw Jones (who was also very streaky and struck out on a lot of bad pitches) into what he is today, he can do the same with Francouer.

[grizzly451]

So far he Francoeur has at begun to take the first pitch during some of his ABs. I think he is beginning understand that he doesn't have to go after the first thing he sees and that by having a willingness to take the first pitch he's making the pitcher work harder.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

The changes in Francoeur are evident and they will continue to improve. Take away his 2 for 36 and he's hitting exactly .312 .

[jpenrod]

He seems to be doing pretty good now. He is fifth in the NL in RBI, his average is rising steadily, and he's on pace to hit 25-30 homers. I read somewhere that one scout who followed him throughout his minor league career said that Jeff Francouer has always gone through slumps and hot streaks, almost exclusively, and there is usually not too much in between. But I think that will change too, Terry Pendleton made Andruw Jones (who was also very streaky and struck out on a lot of bad pitches) into what he is today, he can do the same with Francouer.

Well I hope you are right about TP working with Frenchy. As someone who got to watch Jeff in the minors I can tell you he is either Hot or Cold and I have seen him be both.

[KCGHOST]

The guy is only 22 so he might very well develop some plate discipline. The odds are somewhat against it but players have turned their careers around. I don't want to get into a "did he or didn't he" argument but Sosa's career really blossomed when he finally became a little more selective at the plate.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

...This kid Francoeur will never be anything...;)

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Make that a 14 game hitting streak as Francoeur goes 2 for 5 tonight with a dramatic game tying home run in the bottom of the ninth. This guy has been hot for a while now, let's keep it up Frenchy.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Here's a link to Frency's commercial.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z21n1t0LkeY&search=Atlanta%20Braves

[foxxx]

I love that commercial, I wonder how much Brian McCann makes fun of him every time that commercial comes on

[forznoles]

Well, as I type this it's 1/4 of the way through the season, the Braves have just elevated above the .500 mark at 21-20, and Francouer leads the Braves in homers, passing Andruw Jones with 2 dingers today.

Hopefully his early-season troubles are over, and he's back.

[iPod]

As of June 15, Francoeur's got 14 HR and 47 RBIs, which is impressive and all, but his on-base average is only .269. If he gets 30 HR, 100 RBI like he's on pace for, I'd bet that'd be the lowest OBP ever for a 30/100 player. And he's leading the Braves in at-bats!

[ATL22]

strikeouts arent any worse than any other out

Actually I think they are and that is a big part of the Braves problem this year. When you strike out you don't even give yourself a chance for something good to happen. It's like you put an out on the board without ever going to bat. If you put the ball in play you at least give runners a chance to move up and you make the fielders get you out, which gives you a chance for something in your favor to happen. When you strike out you have no chance for anything good to happen. When the ball is in play at least something good could happen and will happen at least occasionally, especially if the hitter is speedy like Francoeur.

[iPod]

Actually I think they are and that is a big part of the Braves problem this year. When you strike out you don't even give yourself a chance for something good to happen. It's like you put an out on the board without ever going to bat. If you put the ball in play you at least give runners a chance to move up and you make the fielders get you out, which gives you a chance for something in your favor to happen. When you strike out you have no chance for anything good to happen. When the ball is in play at least something good could happen and will happen at least occasionally, especially if the hitter is speedy like Francoeur.

I agree that if you put the ball in play, you might get on base, but knowing the things a player might do possibly to get on base is, it is argued, only relevant in that it affects how often the player actually gets on base. But, since we already know how often the player gets on base, focusing on the way a player made his outs isn't all that helpful. Obviously given the choice between striking out and putting the ball in play, you pick putting the ball in play; that's not the proper comparison. You're comparing the strikeouts to the infield flies, the weak grounders back to the pitcher, and so forth.

[trosmok]

The guy is only 22 so he might very well develop some plate discipline. The odds are somewhat against it but players have turned their careers around....

It won't be a season long struggle, and at his tender age he will develop more discipline. Lots of players experience a sophomore slump, and the Cubs first round pick a number of years ago, Shawon Dunston, was swinging at absolutely everything, and looked destined to return to Iowa, perhaps permanently. His third year, though, he started laying off the eye-high stuff, actually looked for pitches to hit, and upped both his OBP and BA to better than respectable levels. Except for his struggles in '98 when he went from the Cubs to SF, he maintained a near .400 slugging, and near .300 average for most of his career. (except his stinking up the post season):crazy The opposite is, of course, Vlad who still swings at everthing, but he manages to hit balls in fair territory that are 18 inches off the plate. I just read he still averages 2.5 pitches per at bat,(up from 2.2 two seasons ago) That is absolutely incredible, but he is one of a kind.

BTW, I'm no real fan of the Braves, but I did hear today the Astros were at 30-39 at this point last season, and still managed to make it to the Series. I really expect the NY Mutts to melt down in July, the Phillies to keep struggling, the Fish to come back to earth, and the Nats have already started playing within their capabilities after that fast start. It isn't even half way yet, and certainly not time to start overthinking every pitch.

[starkeeper]

The guy is only 22 so he might very well develop some plate discipline. The odds are somewhat against it but players have turned their careers around. I don't want to get into a "did he or didn't he" argument but Sosa's career really blossomed when he finally became a little more selective at the plate.


Check out Alex Rios from the Jays. They were looking to trade him last year because he was so offensively anemic and inconsistent. Some time with a good batting coach and a good attitude has turned his career around. I'm a Jays fan but I like the look of Francouer. What a gun he has in right field, if I'm thing of the right guy. Much like Rios. I find them quite similar. Be Patient.

[Rpollard86]

Jeff is the future of the Braves as well as the MLB. He will be well known for one I've been watching him play baseball and football since he was a freshman and Jeff goes out there and gives his 100% all the time. He is trying his best. Myself I think he's doing a wonderful job. He's made some clutch hits and throws from RF. Goodluck to him and hopefully he will help us get back on track this season.

[Eugenious]

I've been gone for a while, so pardon the late smack here, but is Trosmok on Crack? He said Dunston had a near 400 obp for his career? His career obp in 18 seasons was 296. TWO NINETY SIX. He never once had a full season in which he had an OBP of 400. Please dont compare francoeur to dunston, if only for the peace of mind of Braves fan everywhere.
Jeff is only 22, its true that he has a huge amount of potential and could very well be the future of the braves. The problem is that he is not performing well enough to be in there every inning of every game. Its ridiculous. He's had 340 plate appearances and made 244 outs. That means he makes an out 3 out of every 4 times he goes to the plate. Sure he has some prodigous bombs and generates lots of power. He has a great arm, but he has made far too many mistakes in right field consitently overthrowing cut off men and making mistakes on routine plays. Bench him? nope, I'm not saying that, but should he really be playing every single inning of every single game?

I like the kid, i WANT him to succeed, the Braves need him to succeed, but playing him this way doesnt help him or the team.

There is a much better young player right now that EVERYONE should be talking about.

Brian McCann - The NL version of Joe Mauer

http://www.bravesoxtalk.com/85_Stats.html (http://www.bravesoxtalk.com/85_Stats.html)

[KCGHOST]

Braves fans should be sweating bullets about Francouer. He simply has refused to accept that you can't swing at everything that comes out of a pitchers hand. He has been absolutely dreadful offensively since his explosive start last summer. His OBP in 2006 is .274. That, my friends, is not even being Dunstonesque. The good news is the kid is only 22 and has a chance to figure out what is going on.

McCann certainly has performed at an excellent offensive level for a catcher. At age 22 he is producing at an .865 OPS level. That is superb. He's not in Mauer's class as an offensive player, but he is a year younger and should continue to improve.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Braves fans should be sweating bullets about Francouer. He simply has refused to accept that you can't swing at everything that comes out of a pitchers hand. He has been absolutely dreadful offensively since his explosive start last summer. His OBP in 2006 is .274. That, my friends, is not even being Dunstonesque. The good news is the kid is only 22 and has a chance to figure out what is going on.

Which is why I favor sticking him at Richmond until he learns to take a walk.

[trosmok]

I've been gone for a while, so pardon the late smack here, but is Trosmok on Crack? He said Dunston had a near 400 obp for his career?....

Might want to re-read and re-think. That's not what I wrote nor "said". Perhaps you should stay gone until you regain your wits, that is, if you ever had any.;)

[ichiro262]

This guy should NEVER get a hit or get on base. Just throw sliders low and away and he will swing and miss about 90% of the time. I don't get why pitchers don't just do that. I watch the guy play all the time and it's like a broken record. I don't think I've ever seen a player NOT make an adjustment to such a glaring mistake. He has one of the worst approaches at the plate that I have ever seen out of a major leaguer. I am biased, because I don't like the Braves and everyone else around here does, but you guys have to admit this guy is a terrible hitter unless the pitcher makes a big mistake (floats a curve/change/slow heater up and in).
The only good thing you can say about this guy is that he obviously has some talent when it comes to hitting the ball hard.

[DravenX]

I read somewhere they a scout was monitoring Jeff in the minors and he stated that Jeff is a streaky hitter. He will get the bat going for a while than go into a slump and than get hot again.

[jpenrod]

I read somewhere they a scout was monitoring Jeff in the minors and he stated that Jeff is a streaky hitter. He will get the bat going for a while than go into a slump and than get hot again.


lol, you do not need to be a scout to tell that about him. I got to see Jeff play in AA ball whiile I was in Jacksonville, and he is DEFINITELY and streaky hitter.