Okay, now I hate Bonds

[digglahhh]

He just hit a pinch hit homer of Wagner to tie today's game. This one went the other way too, not down the line, more toward left-center though...

I saw this coming, Wright made an error to prolong the game and bring Bonds up as a PH with the tying run on...

I don't know what to say...

Barry, I don't hate you, I lobbied for people to take a deeper look at things and to examine their own opinions in light of all the surrounding issues, and this is how you repay me?...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

He just hit a pinch hit homer of Wagner to tie today's game. This one went the other way too, not down the line, more toward left-center though...

I saw this coming, Wright made an error to prolong the game and bring Bonds up as a PH with the tying run on...

I don't know what to say...

Barry, I don't hate you, I lobbied for people to take a deeper look at things and to examine their own opinions in light of all the surrounding issues, and this is how you repay me?...
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wagner is one of my closers on my fantasy baseball team!!!!!!111 :grouchy

[KHenry14]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a base open? Didnt' they think they had a better chance against Lance Neikro than Barry, even if Lance is a righty???? Barry's HR just caused him to get an additional 25 IBB's this year I think!

[JohnGelnarFan]

We can't stop him from passing Ruth but at least we can root for Perjury charges! Hopefully they have enough guts not to IBB him!

[Reed Johnson]

Yes Bonds! I cant wait until he passes Ruth and I really hope he passes Aaron.

[Astro]

We can't stop him from passing Ruth but at least we can root for Perjury charges! Hopefully they have enough guts not to IBB him!
People like this make me want Bonds to pass both Ruth and Aaron

[west coast orange and black]

all 3 home runs this season have been oppo.
bonds knee is killing him, so he is being pitched to outside.
but he is getting the hang of how to go after them while on one leg.

[1doug]

We can't stop him from passing Ruth but at least we can root for Perjury charges! Hopefully they have enough guts not to IBB him!

Cudos to you, well put!

[west coast orange and black]

nearly impossible task to prove perjury against bonds under present conditions.
talk is that it's pretty much all for show.

[Mattingly]

Hey, digg, why all the "playa hatin'"? :D

One day I'll figure out why someone in their right mind wouldn't IBB Bonds after he's hit 2 outta there already this season, and with the game on the line, a base open. Seems as natural to me as moving off the tracks when a freight train is coming your way.

Anyway, here's something on this:

Bonds hits homer No. 711 in big spot
Slugger belts pinch-hit dinger to tie game in ninth vs. Mets (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060426&content_id=1420119&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

[Baseball Guru]

NY Mets 9, San Francisco 7, 11 innings


I could care less about Bonds hitting a homer or not.. Bottom line is the Mets won the game and took 2 of 3 vs San Fran and won 4 of 7 on their 1st West Coast trip:gt

[west coast orange and black]

418 different pitchers have served it up to bonds.
418 would rank bonds 39th on the all-time.

[west coast orange and black]

baseball guru: I could care less about Bonds hitting a homer or not...

so, you don't hate him? :rolleyes:

[Baseball Guru]

baseball guru: I could care less about Bonds hitting a homer or not...

so, you don't hate him? :rolleyes:

Nah, not really... I personally have enjoyed watching him play all of these years:)

[Baseball Guru]

One day I'll figure out why someone in their right mind wouldn't IBB Bonds after he's hit 2 outta there already this season, and with the game on the line, a base open. Seems as natural to me as moving off the tracks when a freight train is coming your way.


I an understand that and would tend to agree but the problem with this situation is that instead of going after Bonds and he could tie it, if you intentionally walk him, you bring the WINNING run to the plate.... That I do not like...

I think Willie made the right call by going after him... Bonds hasn't been spectacular this season thus far, is still battling injuries, is coming off the bench as a pinch hitter and is going against your stud closer, which is one of the best in the game... All signs pointed, at least to me, as being in the Mets favor, except the result:)

[JohnGelnarFan]

Why? If it's proved that he lied to congress and cheated where other major leaguers with much less talent have to work and sweat to have a short,nondescript career,Why should he get a slap on the wrist? As an adult,I don't really care what he does but he is looked up to many kids as a role model. With the internet and cable T.V.,topics like this are covered non-stop and I'm sure there are kids that think his "All I care about is me and mine" attitude is cool and the way to fame and MUCH fortune can be attained by less than legal means,as long as you don't get caught. These men are superior athletically and should be commended for their abilities but if it means that they have no responsibility to the people that pay their salaries and the youth of our nation,I am deeply opposed to their accomplishments.There is too much evidence against him and the others to sweep this era of Baseball under the rug. I have loved this game for more than 35 years and with each scandal and disregard for the privelege they are afforded,a part of that love dies. That is what I despise. It's world wide because they are human,like us,but It's abuse in a very gross way. You can root for him all you like and ignore what's really important.
With that,I still love my Nats!! :gt



People like this make me want Bonds to pass both Ruth and Aaron

[The Big C]

I didn't like all the IBBs early in the season to Bonds, but he seems to be adjusting now and heating up, so it probably will be more justified now.

[Baseball Guru]

Why? If it's proved that he lied to congress and cheated where other major leaguers with much less talent have to work and sweat to have a short,nondescript career,Why should he get a slap on the wrist?

Not sure if this is in reference to me or not but if it is proved then I'll probably change my stance on him...

JMO:)

[Mattingly]

I an understand that and would tend to agree but the problem with this situation is that instead of going after Bonds and he could tie it, if you intentionally walk him, you bring the WINNING run to the plate.... That I do not like...

I think Willie made the right call by going after him... Bonds hasn't been spectacular this season thus far, is still battling injuries, is coming off the bench as a pinch hitter and is going against your stud closer, which is one of the best in the game... All signs pointed, at least to me, as being in the Mets favor, except the result:)
I should've thought of the "winning run" thing. I can't remember the guy's name (too much stuff onscreen to keep opening up more windows), but I think it was Moises Alou or someone was cranking out runs.

I'd still have taken the chance. What's the likelihood he'd (guy behind Bonds) hit a HR? A single or double would only plate the 2B runner, and now way Barry's scoring from 1B unless a triple. Either that or a collision. :o :(

As to the results, I think the Mets won it in the 11th, didn't they?

[Baseball Guru]

As to the results, I think the Mets won it in the 11th, didn't they?

Yes they did so it was easy to defend Willie's decision;)

Now if they had lost..................:cool:

[JohnGelnarFan]

Not you Baseball Guru! We all love the game for the game and happiness it brings us. Just hate to see it tarnished right before our eyes.Maybe that's why my favorite players aren't stars. I don't mean to sound harsh but it gets old real quick. Watching guys like Jeff Conine just Blast a homerun is what I watch and root for!




Not sure if this is in reference to me or not but if it is proved then I'll probably change my stance on him...

JMO:)

[Baseball Guru]

Watching guys like Jeff Conine just Blast a homerun is what I watch and root for!

K-9 is great:)

I was at the game down in Miami for the 2003 NLDS where he threw out JT Snow:D

[JohnGelnarFan]

Great memory for you! Small world because I was down there in 03' and saw him hit a 3 run homer in a crucial game during the pennant race against the Phils. Guys like him can struggle and you'll never root against him. I hope I never lose that child-like love of the game. Talking to all here helps keep it alive! :waving




K-9 is great:)

I was at the game down in Miami for the 2003 NLDS where he threw out JT Snow:D

[Baseball Guru]

Great memory for you! Small world because I was down there in 03' and saw him hit a 3 run homer in a crucial game during the pennant race against the Phils. Guys like him can struggle and you'll never root against him. I hope I never lose that child-like love of the game. Talking to all here helps keep it alive! :waving

Oh wow, that is awesome!

I live in the Orlando area so I got to see all of the playoff games with the Cubs and Giants that year:)

K-9 is a .304 career hitter in the postseason;)

[JohnGelnarFan]

I envy you. I was only there for a long weekend but loved the city,the beach and the stadium experience.I'll never forget it. No matter how old we get,some of these guys,past and present,still have an influence on who we are and what we fondly remember. I went to Spring Training in Orlando years ago and remember a guy named Rick Sofield,an outfielder with the Twins for a short time. Why would I remember him? I don't know but I suspect that it's because Baseball meant that much to me.
I'm straying here and that's not allowed so, I STILL don't like Bonds!!




Oh wow, that is awesome!

I live in the Orlando area so I got to see all of the playoff games with the Cubs and Giants that year:)

K-9 is a .304 career hitter in the postseason;)

[ndistops]

Stop IBBing Bonds please. He might still hit the occasional homer, but you're helping the Giants more than hurting them by putting him on all the time.

Actually, this was the case even in the height of his roiding years, but that's a statistical discussion.

[JohnGelnarFan]

I agree. It's been universally agreed that any walk is asking for trouble. The best hitter succeeds maybe 36% of the time. ON AVERAGE,one man isn't going to beat 9. Given Late inning situations might dictate otherwise but to walk a guy 225 times in one year is ridiculous!! :eek:





Stop IBBing Bonds please. He might still hit the occasional homer, but you're helping the Giants more than hurting them by putting him on all the time.

Actually, this was the case even in the height of his roiding years, but that's a statistical discussion.

[west coast orange and black]

Baseball Guru: Nah, not really...
coolio.

[digglahhh]

People like this make me want Bonds to pass both Ruth and Aaron

Absolutely, I hope he hits 850.

That doesn't even mean that I'll recognize him as the greatest homerun hitter of all-time or anything. But the tar and feather crowd has long since reached the tipping point where they annoy me far more than Bonds does.

[digglahhh]

I an understand that and would tend to agree but the problem with this situation is that instead of going after Bonds and he could tie it, if you intentionally walk him, you bring the WINNING run to the plate.... That I do not like...

I think Willie made the right call by going after him... Bonds hasn't been spectacular this season thus far, is still battling injuries, is coming off the bench as a pinch hitter and is going against your stud closer, which is one of the best in the game... All signs pointed, at least to me, as being in the Mets favor, except the result:)

Of course, after the situations in which Willie decided to walk him in the series opener it would seem like an IBB was more warranted in yesterday's game, you don't think?

So he brings the winning run to the plate, ok. Bonds is the tying run at first. SF's gonna need a homer to beat you, because Bonds isn't scoring from first on anything. Maybe they pinch run, in which case an extra base hit only ties it and SF's bench gets further depleted for a trip into extras.

I'm not really pissed that Willie pitched to him, I think he should be pitched to more than he is, and I thought they should have pitched to him more over the past five years. What I'm saying though is that if Willie walked him in the situations he did on Monday, it seems inconsistent that they pitched to him yesterday in that spot.

[KenFougere]

We can't stop him from passing Ruth but at least we can root for Perjury charges!

I couldn't agree with you more . . .
http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/angermax.gif - but it still pisses me off to see records that were set by players using only their "God" given talent broken by players like him using "needle" given talent. It really turns my stomach! - http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/shakehead.gif

[JohnGelnarFan]

So needle or not,you don't mind guys like this being a role model for our kids? Did you read my follow up E-Mail? There are plenty of Baseball players that don't mind playing America's pastime for others but themselves.It's a public profession and we contribute greatly to his salary. He could have chosen another career if that's such a problem.




Absolutely, I hope he hits 850.

That doesn't even mean that I'll recognize him as the greatest homerun hitter of all-time or anything. But the tar and feather crowd has long since reached the tipping point where they annoy me far more than Bonds does.

[digglahhh]

So needle or not,you don't mind guys like this being a role model for our kids? Did you read my follow up E-Mail? There are plenty of Baseball players that don't mind playing America's pastime for others but themselves.It's a public profession and we contribute greatly to his salary. He could have chosen another career if that's such a problem.

Quite honestly, I think the role model argument is absolute garbage. It is the last resort, and it is rhetorical.

When the President of our country is a former cokehead, cheat, a thief and glorified mass murderer, a drug taking baseball player isn't really a big deal by comparison. Do you hold all people who are supposedly role models to the same standard, or do you choose to selectivley apply them to people you don't like and want to discredit anyway?...

If my children idolize a leftfielder for the San Francisco Giants, that's my failure, not his.

I don't want to make this a political discussion, I do too much of that here, so don't focus on that part of the post. I just wanted to highlight the inconsistencies in the way we apply this "role model" clause.

BTW, you contribute to his salary voluntarily, if you have a problem, YOU can choose another hobby.

[JohnGelnarFan]

Point taken. Maybe I don't agree but That's what these forums are all about.


Quite honestly, I think the role model argument is absolute garbage. It is the last resort, and it is rhetorical.

When the President of our country is a former cokehead, cheat, a thief and glorified mass murderer, a drug taking baseball player isn't really a big deal by comparison. Do you hold all people who are supposedly role models to the same standard, or do you choose to selectivley apply them to people you don't like and want to discredit anyway?...

If my children idolize a leftfielder for the San Francisco Giants, that's my failure, not his.

I don't want to make this a political discussion, I do too much of that here, so don't focus on that part of the post. I just wanted to highlight the inconsistencies in the way we apply this "role model" clause.

BTW, you contribute to his salary voluntarily, if you have a problem, YOU can choose another hobby.

[SoxSon]

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wagner is one of my closers on my fantasy baseball team!!!!!!111 :grouchy

No worries. It wasn't earned on Wagner. ;)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Quite honestly, I think the role model argument is absolute garbage. It is the last resort, and it is rhetorical.

When the President of our country is a former cokehead, cheat, a thief and glorified mass murderer, a drug taking baseball player isn't really a big deal by comparison. Do you hold all people who are supposedly role models to the same standard, or do you choose to selectivley apply them to people you don't like and want to discredit anyway?...

If my children idolize a leftfielder for the San Francisco Giants, that's my failure, not his.

I don't want to make this a political discussion, I do too much of that here, so don't focus on that part of the post. I just wanted to highlight the inconsistencies in the way we apply this "role model" clause.

BTW, you contribute to his salary voluntarily, if you have a problem, YOU can choose another hobby.

Kids will always idolize baseball players, period. The president example doesn't hold up. What kid has a podium in his room, trying to emulate one of Bush's hand gestures or goofy expressions. Probably not many. You want to see how impressionable our youth is, watch a little league game sometime, and see the kids standing and watching their homers and swinging from the arses at every pitch. See the kids hurting their arms by trying to throw a Roger Clemens type fastball or a Randy Johnson type slider. Parents should be the real role models, I agree with you there, but kids are entertained by what they're interested in, and it's inevitable that pro athletes will impact our youth.

[Astro]

I couldn't agree with you more . . .
http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/angermax.gif - but it still pisses me off to see records that were set by players using only their "God" given talent broken by players like him using "needle" given talent. It really turns my stomach! - http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/shakehead.gif
Needle vs the Pill

pick your poison

[W_Marone]

When it comes to Bonds anymore I could care less, if he passes Ruth he passes Ruth, I dont think he'll pass Aaron however, this is his last year most likley, last time i checked he still wasnt 100% sure he wasnt coming back next year. But in my mind however as others have said, the Homerun Record Holder will always be Aaron even if Bonds passes him, and Maris will always be the Single Season record holder, but thats just how I am.

[JohnGelnarFan]

Wer'e on the same side of the fence regarding this discussion Sultan. I know what I see when I watch kids play and how I was the same way. Baseball and my Idols were very Important to me in my Impressionable years,as a fan and player. I'll never forget the many times that my parents let us wait after games for autographs.I'll always remember the players that took time and were nice to us as well as the ones that were rude and brushed by us. Part of who I am is because of those heroes. I am fully aware now that in the days before cable and the Internet,sports heroes were "sterilized" but at that age,I was given pleasure and memories that I wouldn't trade for almost anything. I certainly wouldn't be a member of this great website. I can appreciate that each of us are allowed our opinions. Wer'e all here because we love the game and want it to be the best that it can be.






Kids will always idolize baseball players, period. The president example doesn't hold up. What kid has a podium in his room, trying to emulate one of Bush's hand gestures or goofy expressions. Probably not many. You want to see how impressionable our youth is, watch a little league game sometime, and see the kids standing and watching their homers and swinging from the arses at every pitch. See the kids hurting their arms by trying to throw a Roger Clemens type fastball or a Randy Johnson type slider. Parents should be the real role models, I agree with you there, but kids are entertained by what they're interested in, and it's inevitable that pro athletes will impact our youth.

[TonyK]

If Bonds passes the Babe and Hank Aaron, the next story will be can he catch Oh's record.

[SamtheBravesFan]

If Bonds passes the Babe and Hank Aaron, the next story will be can he catch Oh's record.

:laugh Yeah, right

[digglahhh]

Kids will always idolize baseball players, period. The president example doesn't hold up. What kid has a podium in his room, trying to emulate one of Bush's hand gestures or goofy expressions. Probably not many. You want to see how impressionable our youth is, watch a little league game sometime, and see the kids standing and watching their homers and swinging from the arses at every pitch. See the kids hurting their arms by trying to throw a Roger Clemens type fastball or a Randy Johnson type slider. Parents should be the real role models, I agree with you there, but kids are entertained by what they're interested in, and it's inevitable that pro athletes will impact our youth.

I've coached and umpired little league games and I see the bad habits. I also see the kids emulating the bad habits or actors, musicians and Joe Sixpack. I also see parents personifying the ugly side of competitiveness. I see parents on their laptops, checking their portfolios at the games. I see kids flaunting their expensive athletic equipment in the same way that their parents flaunt the Escalade they transported it to the game in... Let's not single out the ballplayers here. Oh, and kids don't idolize the morally bankrupt CEO class that runs our country, adults do, and then children idolize them.

As you are aware I have an extremely passionate interest in baseball. I followed it as a kid as closely as I could and I loved the Mets and the players. But, I had many people whom I admired and they came from all over the place, to say that a young kid can appreciate an athlete, but not an artist or author, etc is usually used as a cop-out, IMO. Neither my mother nor father had money, and they split up when I was young. My family was blessed with little "advantage" but it was instilled in me to value all kinds of talent and to seek inspiration and guidance from many sources. When I went astray later in life, it was my own fault, but that foundation was strong enough that I found it again, within myself, on my own. It takes more effort on the part of a parent to foster an interest in history or science in your child, but there is nothing about those fields that inherently makes them less interesting or compelling than baseball. To state that kids will idolize ballplayers and call that the end of it, is to set rather low standards for what you want and expect from our children.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

to say that a young kid can appreciate an athlete, but not an artist or author, etc is usually used as a cop-out, IMO.


Never said any such thing. You brought up the president, not artists or authors, and it wasn't about "appeciating" them, it was about being "influenced" by them.

but there is nothing about those fields that inherently makes them less interesting or compelling than baseball.

Sure there is. Kids aren't drawn toward the Mona Lisa, or toward the study of the solar system, the way they are for baseball. The same way they're more drawn to pudding, than a bowl of broccoli. This is as simple as it gets imo.

Doesn't it come down to interest when talking about these kids watching and admiring our athletes. When I was a kid, along with baseball, I was interested in WWF. Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Ravishing Rick Rude, Brutus "the Barber" Beefcake. I was interested in it because the athleticism intrigued me, kicking butt intrigued me, and the lame story lines I bought hook line and sinker cause I didn't know any better.

I idolized those guys along with Mac, Rickey, and Canseco. Posters, neon green batting gloves, we'd do the forearm bash on our baseball team, tried their batting stances, etc. Kids are extremely influenced by these guys imo. After seeing Michael do the free-throw dunk, who didn't give the foul line a second look when you were at the gym, thinking to yourself, damn that's far. After a through the legs dunk at the dunk contest, who didn't lower their hoop to 7 feet and try the same thing. I broke my wrist emulating a Dominique windmill Dunk and missed the first part of 9th grade basebball because of it. You want to put everything on the parents, and I think that's not only a cop-out, but completely unrealistic. They should have the most influence and instill values, but when it comes down to it, I think kids are the most impressionable when it comes to things they genuinely have interest in. You can explain all you want how important math is, and you could even describe some famous math guru's work, but how much genuine passion will that draw from a common kid? Probably not much, and I don't think that's about bad parenting as much as it's about a kid being a kid.

[west coast orange and black]

my only question, sultan:
did you idolize the "wrestlers" and mcgwire, henderson, canseco, et al, as men, or as performers?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

my only question, sultan:
did you idolize the "wrestlers" and mcgwire, henderson, canseco, et al, as men, or as performers?

Both, but more performers. I admired the swagger, cockiness, and talent of those guys, but if I knew back then that I was watching them on steroids, it would have been a wake-up call that no 11/12 year old should have to experience.

[538280]

One thing that has humored me about Bonds this year is how the media continues to assert that he is not having a good year, and he has proven he is no longer one of the best players in the game. The opposite is true, and really this is another charade in which sportswriters and the like prove they cannot look beyond BA. Bonds is hitting .267/.542/.556. He's getting on base a ton, and he's hitting for very, very good power. The .267 BA isn't that great, but that's about the only thing on offense he hasn't been doing tremendously. Lost in the shuffle is that Bonds is actually having a great start.

Of course, many of those walks are intentional, but he's still getting on base, and the fact teams are IBBing him more than anyone else is really proof in itself that he is still considered the best hitter in the game.

[digglahhh]

Doesn't it come down to interest when talking about these kids watching and admiring our athletes. When I was a kid, along with baseball, I was interested in WWF. Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Ravishing Rick Rude, Brutus "the Barber" Beefcake. I was interested in it because the athleticism intrigued me, kicking butt intrigued me, and the lame story lines I bought hook line and sinker cause I didn't know any better.

But what if you watched National Geographic instead...

I had friends who were totally nuts for wrestling, sports, outer space, dinosaurs, painting... None of these things are mutually exclusive.

I idolized those guys along with Mac, Rickey, and Canseco. Posters, neon green batting gloves, we'd do the forearm bash on our baseball team, tried their batting stances, etc. Kids are extremely influenced by these guys imo. After seeing Michael do the free-throw dunk, who didn't give the foul line a second look when you were at the gym, thinking to yourself, damn that's far. After a through the legs dunk at the dunk contest, who didn't lower their hoop to 7 feet and try the same thing. I broke my wrist emulating a Dominique windmill Dunk and missed the first part of 9th grade basebball because of it. You want to put everything on the parents, and I think that's not only a cop-out, but completely unrealistic. They should have the most influence and instill values, but when it comes down to it, I think kids are the most impressionable when it comes to things they genuinely have interest in. You can explain all you want how important math is, and you could even describe some famous math guru's work, but how much genuine passion will that draw from a common kid? Probably not much, and I don't think that's about bad parenting as much as it's about a kid being a kid.

Hey man, I'm not trying to be holier than thou. I had the neon green Rickey Mizzuno, puffy joints too, they completely clashed with my uniform, but I didn't care. In fact, in my league it was like an unwritten code that none of the scrubs wore those gloves and if you had them, it was like you were worthy.

I watched tons of wrestling and begged my mom to order the Pay-Per Views and everything. But for some reason, I also read a lot. I was also taken to museums all the time and street theatre. I had lots of interests and all the people who did what entertained me were larger than life. Its not all on the parents, but for the most part, kids are empty vessels and they get filled up with what they are given.

These players were my role models- on the field. When I was in class, my role model was the guy who won Jeopardy the night before...

[Sultan_1895-1948]

One thing that has humored me about Bonds this year is how the media continues to assert that he is not having a good year, and he has proven he is no longer one of the best players in the game. The opposite is true, and really this is another charade in which sportswriters and the like prove they cannot look beyond BA. Bonds is hitting .267/.542/.556. He's getting on base a ton, and he's hitting for very, very good power. The .267 BA isn't that great, but that's about the only thing on offense he hasn't been doing tremendously. Lost in the shuffle is that Bonds is actually having a great start.

Of course, many of those walks are intentional, but he's still getting on base, and the fact teams are IBBing him more than anyone else is really proof in itself that he is still considered the best hitter in the game.

Remember, his average is as HIGH as it is, because they are walking him so much. If they pitched to him, it would likely be lower because of a larger sample size of AB, reverting to what a 40 year old should revert to. Best hitter in the game is arguable.

What if every manager in the game got together and they all agreed to IBB him every time to the plate, no matter what the situation, in order to preserve Aaron's record. That would be Utopia.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

But what if you watched National Geographic instead...

I had friends who were totally nuts for wrestling, sports, outer space, dinosaurs, painting... None of these things are mutually exclusive.



Hey man, I'm not trying to be holier than thou. I had the neon green Rickey Mizzuno, puffy joints too, they completely clashed with my uniform, but I didn't care. In fact, in my league it was like an unwritten code that none of the scrubs wore those gloves and if you had them, it was like you were worthy.

I watched tons of wrestling and begged my mom to order the Pay-Per Views and everything. But for some reason, I also read a lot. I was also taken to museums all the time and street theatre. I had lots of interests and all the people who did what entertained me were larger than life. Its not all on the parents, but for the most part, kids are empty vessels and they get filled up with what they are given.

These players were my role models- on the field. When I was in class, my role model was the guy who won Jeopardy the night before...

lol, I loved those Mizuno gloves. We were rockin' the green and the orange back in the day. So we wore those ugly, clashing gloves because we thought they were cool because Rickey wore them...so how big of a stretch is it that a youngster will see what Bonds has allegedly done, and decide to order steroids from a website because of it. The number of kids using has increased every year for awhile now, and it's not limited to kids of bad parents.

btw: That Jeapardy thing makes you truly unique ;)

Speakin' of old school stuff. Do you remember the old school high-top Nike cleats that Eric Davis and others used to wear? Lookin' to get a pair of those...hit me up if you run across any :p

[KenFougere]

What if every manager in the game got together and they all agreed to IBB him every time to the plate, no matter what the situation, in order to preserve Aaron's record. That would be Utopia.

Aaron's record?
Hell, I wish they'd do it before he reached 714. :evil
Unfortunately poetic justice seldom happens in real life . . . http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/sarge/Disappointed_anim.gif

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Aaron's record?
Hell, I wish they'd do it before he reached 714. :evil
Unfortunately poetic justice seldom happens in real life . . . http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/sarge/Disappointed_anim.gif

I hear ya.

Hey, how are you getting different smiley things? Is there a list of codes somewhere to use?

[KenFougere]

I hear ya.

Hey, how are you getting different smiley things? Is there a list of codes somewhere to use?
Sultan, check your PM's . . .

http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/cwm3d/3dbiggrin3.gif

[digglahhh]

Chris,

Remember though that although the walks are valuable, once on the bases, you don't get much less valuable than Bonds, at this point he's like Jason Phillips out there.

[538280]

Chris,

Remember though that although the walks are valuable, once on the bases, you don't get much less valuable than Bonds, at this point he's like Jason Phillips out there.

Of course I understand that, but he's still not making an out (allowing for another hitter to come up), and getting on base for a possible run. Baserunners=runs, even if they are slow.

[west coast orange and black]

Kids will always idolize baseball players .... kids are entertained by what they're interested in...

there is a sea of difference between being entertained by ballplayers and idolizing them.
kids can emulate without idolizing. they do it every day.

[west coast orange and black]

did you idolize the "wrestlers" and mcgwire, henderson, canseco, et al, as men, or as performers?

Both, but more performers. I admired the swagger, cockiness, and talent of those guys, but if I knew back then that I was watching them on steroids, it would have been a wake-up call that no 11/12 year old should have to experience.

ok. thanx. but, what does the fact that the wrestling entertainers used steroids have to do with anything? i mean, why would that change your mind, looking back on it all now?

the fact that you at one time idolized characters acting out a staged script is a separate issue than the fact that those characters happened to be using steroids. the steroid use has nothing to do to whom you idolized.

but, dude, don't take this as me trying to rake you or anything. i simply do not understand.

[west coast orange and black]

538280: [bonds is] still not making an out (allowing for another hitter to come up), and getting on base for a possible run. Baserunners=runs, even if they are slow.

yeah, they keep walking him.
check it out (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=42561)

[The Big C]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone using steroids. Not physically in the act. Kids just seeing a player who is on steroids and doing good is different from seeing a player wearing batting gloves to trying and look more like that player on the field by wearing the same batting gloves in my estimation. Kids don't copy the diets or pregame rituals of players very often, do they?

[538280]

538280: [bonds is] still not making an out (allowing for another hitter to come up), and getting on base for a possible run. Baserunners=runs, even if they are slow.

yeah, they keep walking him.
check it out (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=42561)

And that's the thing-until he retires, Bonds will always be extremely valuable because he gets on base more than anyone. Now that he's hit some HRs his line is up to .267/.542/.556, and he's just as valuble a the plate as anyone in the NL this side of Pujols.

When Barry continues to heat up (it's bound to happen), and when Pujols goes down to human levels (it's bound to happen), we'll see who's really the more valuble hitter, and to be honest my money's on Barry.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone using steroids. Not physically in the act. Kids just seeing a player who is on steroids and doing good is different from seeing a player wearing batting gloves to trying and look more like that player on the field by wearing the same batting gloves in my estimation. Kids don't copy the diets or pregame rituals of players very often, do they?

You'd be surprised what's happening to our youths in athletics. I'll try to look up the numbers, but teen steroid use is through the roof; no coincidence if you ask me. And keep in mind any numbers posted will only be the kids that admitted it.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

did you idolize the "wrestlers" and mcgwire, henderson, canseco, et al, as men, or as performers?

Both, but more performers. I admired the swagger, cockiness, and talent of those guys, but if I knew back then that I was watching them on steroids, it would have been a wake-up call that no 11/12 year old should have to experience.

ok. thanx. but, what does the fact that the wrestling entertainers used steroids have to do with anything? i mean, why would that change your mind, looking back on it all now?

the fact that you at one time idolized characters acting out a staged script is a separate issue than the fact that those characters happened to be using steroids. the steroid use has nothing to do to whom you idolized.

but, dude, don't take this as me trying to rake you or anything. i simply do not understand.

Believe it or not, back in the day, I thought it was real :rolleyes: When I realized it was fake I lost interest. If I thought it was real, and I knew that Hulk Hogan was taking steroids to gain an edge over who he wrestled (I know they were all doing it), it would have bothered me for sure.

[Taco De Muerte]

Bonds is very productive this season - those gob's of walks he recieves are very valuable - Intentional or not. I'm not a big fan of OPS, but just because it's an easy stat to find during the season I'll post bonds current OPS. It's 1.121 right now, which constitutes a great season - And he hasn't even heated up yet.

What's funny is both of the " balco boys " ( giambi and bonds) were both predicted to post ross choad type numbers this year, and yet giambi is one, if not the most productive hitter in the AL, and Bonds is among the best in the NL.

Either they both found some " undetectable " PED'S ( not HGH) to use, or steroids benefits are grossly overrated.

[west coast orange and black]

what happened, 538280, is that bonds has spent tons of time in the cage and is starting to figure out how to hit that outside pitch -- hard slider on the black at the knees has always been his weak spot -- with authority while not using his front (power) leg much at all.

pretty much, bonds is going on one leg, as he did down the stretch of 2004.
he's comin' 'round, but we'll hafta wait and see. bonds could conceivably be out of baseball come the pittsburgh all-star break.

[538280]

Projections-Bonds/Pujols-Let me know if they're reasonable.

Bonds-.290/.520/.600
Pujols-.340/.420/.640

I think that's a good prediction for how their final numbers will be. That would be 11.88 RC/27 for Bonds (118 hits, 194 walks, 244 total bases, 288 outs per 600 PA), and a 10.99 RC/27 for Pujols (179 hits, 73 walks, 337 total bases, 348 outs per 600 PA).

Pujols can have his April HR record-I'll take Bonds' walks anyday-they're going to create you more runs.

Taco-As usual, couldn't agree with you more. This steroids thing, IMO, has largely been a way for the media and the public, who have always hated Bonds, to lash out at him. Bonds was competitvely cheating, and to be honest I don't find that completely disgraceful. It certainly isn't honorable, but not the awful conduct it's been made out to be.

I hope Bonds passes Ruth and has a monster season, hopefully it will shut up the millions of TV people and members here bashing on him every day.

[west coast orange and black]

^^if you come to the city, man, lemme know and we'll catch a game... all up close and personal.

[sandlot]

I have no doubt that emulation occurs in sports like football, where the benefits of mass and muscle mean so much. And I'm pretty certain that the knowledge of how the stars who are being emulated "do it" is passed on in gyms, and by teammates, "helpful" coaches, and other individuals with an interest in seeing a young person achieve athletically. I would not exclude agents from the list. But I doubt that emulation by the very young is as large an issue in baseball. If it were, we'd be seeing 19-year old giants strolling into ST straight from college, and that's rare. But we do see college football players the size of icebergs heading straight into the NFL. It seems to me that in baseball, the problems really begin once they are in the minors. It's there where they begin to see the difference between being good, very good and great -- which is sometimes huge, and sometimes very little. They are also away from other control systems, like family, are more susceptible to temptation, and the financial incentives to get the the big leagues as fast as possible are huge, especially for youngsters coming from disadvantaged backgrounds where extended families may be counting on them to succeed. And it's in the minors where they come into personal contact with top players who were previously just images, or someone who -- if you were lucky -- you got close enough to for an autograph. I've got to think that when younger players saw a Giambi, a Canseco, a McGwire or a Sheffield in person and compared themselves to them, the need for outside help must have been pretty evident. A lot of things in life can be expressed in risk:benefit ratios. I really can't see where there's much room for personal blame in all this, whether it's Bonds or some poor Joe Smith who blew himself up like a blimp but never made the majors. The blame and shame have to be on the whole system, which makes it very, very hard to resolve. At the end of the day, parents have to take responsibility for teaching children until the kids are big enough to take responsibility for teaching themselves. It's one sad irony among many in the steroids saga that any number of players who didn't take the juice, and who could have blown a whistle or two over the years, didn't, but the whistleblower who's now profiting from revealing the extent of the problem is one of the very guys who also profited mightily from expanding the problem in the first place. Parents looking to give their kids guidance could do a lot worse than to try the warning: "Don't use steroids, or you'll grow up to be like Jose Canseco." Emulation can also take the negative.

[digglahhh]

You'd be surprised what's happening to our youths in athletics. I'll try to look up the numbers, but teen steroid use is through the roof; no coincidence if you ask me. And keep in mind any numbers posted will only be the kids that admitted it.

Or those who "admitted" to doing it when the really didn't, in order to seem like badasses.

This too, is a common problem, in self-reporting surveys of adolescents when dealing with rebellious or pathological behaviors.

How many kids did you know at 15 who lied about not being virgins, or getting into fights and beating guys up...

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Or those who "admitted" to doing it when the really didn't, in order to seem like badasses.

This too, is a common problem, in self-reporting surveys of adolescents when dealing with rebellious or pathological behaviors.

How many kids did you know at 15 who lied about not being virgins, or getting into fights and beating guys up...

Can't say 100% that there might not have been some cases of that. Really though, if you had to put money on which has the higher percent, those who really were using and didn't want anyone to know, or those who would lie and say they did use, when they really didn't...which one do you think is higher.

Are you really a "badass" if you've taken steroids, or are you a cheat.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Projections-Bonds/Pujols-Let me know if they're reasonable.

Bonds-.290/.520/.600
Pujols-.340/.420/.640

I think that's a good prediction for how their final numbers will be. That would be 11.88 RC/27 for Bonds (118 hits, 194 walks, 244 total bases, 288 outs per 600 PA), and a 10.99 RC/27 for Pujols (179 hits, 73 walks, 337 total bases, 348 outs per 600 PA).

Pujols can have his April HR record-I'll take Bonds' walks anyday-they're going to create you more runs.

Taco-As usual, couldn't agree with you more. This steroids thing, IMO, has largely been a way for the media and the public, who have always hated Bonds, to lash out at him. Bonds was competitvely cheating, and to be honest I don't find that completely disgraceful. It certainly isn't honorable, but not the awful conduct it's been made out to be.

I hope Bonds passes Ruth and has a monster season, hopefully it will shut up the millions of TV people and members here bashing on him every day.
Chris,

You really think Bond will walk 194 times this season? I highly doubt that for two reasons:

1) Teams will figure out that the 2006 Bonds is nowhere close to the 2001-04 Bonds
2) Bonds will miss significant time at some point this season.

Where do you get just 73 walks for Pujols? He already has 28 walks as of today, a pace of 181 walks for the season. I don't think he'll get quite that many but I'm sure he'll get at least 140-150. Pujols actually has more walks so far this season. Bonds does lead in OBP (.547-.509) but Pujol leads by 340 points in slugging (.914-.574) (If Pujols manages to slug .914 for the entire season that alone would probably make it the greatest season ever).

I have no doubt Pujols will have the better offensive season. Even if Bonds has a "monster" season I doubt that will shut anybody up. ;)

[The Big C]

If anything, it will lead to even more bashing. Giambi's success has led to speculation as to the legitimacy of his recent accomplishments, and this is a guy who on all counts put up atleast a facade of being contrite and genuinely appologetic.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Pretty sure Bonds will be 41 in a couple of months. That's friekin' old. He's only like 5 years younger than Julio Franco, and that guy is ancient. Too bad MLB doesn't test for the fountain of youth, "HGH." :rolleyes:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

(If Pujols manages to slug .914 for the entire season that alone would probably make it the greatest season ever).


If he slugs .900, has a .500 OBP, 50+ bombs, and a .330 BA, I'm with ya. It would be top 3 for sure, and arguably the greatest ever.

[538280]

Chris,

You really think Bond will walk 194 times this season? I highly doubt that for two reasons:

1) Teams will figure out that the 2006 Bonds is nowhere close to the 2001-04 Bonds
2) Bonds will miss significant time at some point this season.

You're probably right about #2, but I still think it's reasonable for Bonds to get 600 PAs (which is what my 194 walks is based on). I don't really agree with #1 though. He isn't quite as good as he was then, but I still think he's probably the best hitter in baseball, with Pujols being his only close rival. But, he is still hitting the cover off the ball. His IsoSLG is .289.

Where do you get just 73 walks for Pujols? He already has 28 walks as of today, a pace of 181 walks for the season. I don't think he'll get quite that many but I'm sure he'll get at least 140-150. Pujols actually has more walks so far this season. Bonds does lead in OBP (.547-.509) but Pujol leads by 340 points in slugging (.914-.574) (If Pujols manages to slug .914 for the entire season that alone would probably make it the greatest season ever).

Remeber, those are just based on 600 PA. 700 PA would be a better estimate for a full season, and that would be 85 walks for Pujols. Maybe with his current hot streak teams will pitch around him more, but he's never really been an extremely patient hitter and his ceiling for walks is probably about 100. I think 80-100 walks this year is probably about where he'll end up.

I have no doubt Pujols will have the better offensive season. Even if Bonds has a "monster" season I doubt that will shut anybody up. ;)

Maybe he'll create more runs, simply because he'll play more. But, I stand by that for his playing time, Bonds will be the better hitter this season.

People won't shut up, because some people have an unbelievable hatred for the man. They can keep screaming if they want, few will take them serious anymore though. If it wasn't for the sheer mass of them no one would pay attention to them now.:radio

^^if you come to the city, man, lemme know and we'll catch a game... all up close and personal.

Maybe in 20 years. :)

You agree with me, right? That "all up close and personal" makes me wonder. I know you've defended Bonds before.

[538280]

If he slugs .900, has a .500 OBP, 50+ bombs, and a .330 BA, I'm with ya. It would be top 3 for sure, and arguably the greatest ever.

Slug .900? Get real, Sultan.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Pretty sure Bonds will be 41 in a couple of months. That's friekin' old. He's only like 5 years younger than Julio Franco, and that guy is ancient. Too bad MLB doesn't test for the fountain of youth, "HGH." :rolleyes:
Sultan, Bonds will be 42 in July. He was born in 1964.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Slug .900? Get real, Sultan.
Yes it is rather unlikely. But we are talking "what-ifs" here. IF Pujols slugs over .900 that would be truly a season for the ages. I think Pujols can slug .700 though.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If he slugs .900, has a .500 OBP, 50+ bombs, and a .330 BA, I'm with ya. It would be top 3 for sure, and arguably the greatest ever.
I would love for a "natural" player to do this. Can you imagine if it actually happened? I will be telling my grandchildren about it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Remeber, those are just based on 600 PA. 700 PA would be a better estimate for a full season, and that would be 85 walks for Pujols. Maybe with his current hot streak teams will pitch around him more, but he's never really been an extremely patient hitter and his ceiling for walks is probably about 100. I think 80-100 walks this year is probably about where he'll end up.
Pujols has never been a hacker, either. He set a career high last season with 97 walks. And eventually he'll get the Bonds treatment. I don't think 50 IBBs are out of the question. He already has 28 walks. I can totally see 120-140 walks this season.


People won't shut up, because some people have an unbelievable hatred for the man. They can keep screaming if they want, few will take them serious anymore though. If it wasn't for the sheer mass of them no one would pay attention to them now.:radio


You agree with me, right? That "all up close and personal" makes me wonder. I know you've defended Bonds before.
I've accepted the fact that there is no possibility of ever having a cordial Barry Bonds discussion on BBF. So I stay out of them. My main concern for Bonds is his age. No player has ever performed at an All-star level at that his age. Bond's knee is already toast. It will only get worse. Eventually it will effect him significantly as a hitter. I truly believe that this year Pujols will surpass Bonds as the game's best hitter especially if he slugs .900. :D

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If he slugs .900, has a .500 OBP, 50+ bombs, and a .330 BA, I'm with ya. It would be top 3 for sure, and arguably the greatest ever.
Top 3? Only top 3? Hey Sultan, I guess Pujols has to slug 1.000 to surpass Ruth's best season in you mind, huh? :laugh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Slug .900? Get real, Sultan.I don't know why, but Chris' response makes me :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[538280]

I don't know why, but Chris' response makes me :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

Why? It is true, Sultan should get a dose of reality if he really believes Pujols will stay on the same pace he is on now (which is about a .900 SLG).

And of course if he does slug .900 it will be the best offensive season ever.

BTW, HWR, you might have set some sort of record with six posts in a row on the same thread. :)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Why? It is true, Sultan should get a dose of reality if he really believes Pujols will stay on the same pace he is on now (which is about a .900 SLG).

And of course if he does slug .900 it will be the best offensive season ever.

BTW, HWR, you might have set some sort of record with six posts in a row on the same thread. :)
I'm trying to match Pujols .900 slugging pace...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Why? It is true, Sultan should get a dose of reality if he really believes Pujols will stay on the same pace he is on now (which is about a .900 SLG).

That's why it's so funny. :laugh. Things are most funny when people are trying to be serious.

[Taco De Muerte]

If anything, it will lead to even more bashing. Giambi's success has led to speculation as to the legitimacy of his recent accomplishments, and this is a guy who on all counts put up atleast a facade of being contrite and genuinely appologetic.

What are you talking about ? - Giambi won comeback player of the year, and rarely gets booed anywhere but boston - and even there the treatment isn't bad.

Bonds can and will be very productive this season - Because he's a great great hitter, now I can't say it will change people's negative opinions of him.

[ESPNFan]

What are you talking about ? - Giambi won comeback player of the year, and rarely gets booed anywhere but boston - and even there the treatment isn't bad.

Bonds can and will be very productive this season - Because he's a great great hitter, now I can't say it will change people's negative opinions of him.

Apparently you didn't see tonights game. Giambi was booed Lustily. And Giambi wining comeback player of the year from a drug company is like Elizabeth Taylor winning wife of the year from a online dating service. Straight out of a late night comedians monolouge

[Taco De Muerte]

Too bad MLB doesn't test for the fountain of youth, "HGH." :rolleyes:


You are grossly overrating HGH. It's impact on muscle mass and performance is very overrated. You should do some reading on the profiles of various drugs used in bodybuilding. You'll find HGH use won't do much other than make your bones and intestines grow.

Now whether or not bonds is using something-else to " better " his performance now is debatable - But I highly doubt it's HGH.

[ESPNFan]

Too bad MLB doesn't test for the fountain of youth, "HGH." :rolleyes:

I can't test for a newer substance that Will Carroll described as the latest thing players are using. IGF1 Insulin growth factor 1 is undetectable, aside from anything short of a muscle biopsy IIRC, so there is yet another substance that anyone could be on.

And anyone that doubts what HGH can do is just fooling themselves. This is a drug who SIDE EFFECTS can cause excess growth in a number of bodyparts. Anything that you take that makes something that's not supposed to grow suddenly start to grow again is most definetly not overrated in it's potentcey.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I can't test for a newer substance that Will Carroll described as the latest thing players are using. IGF1 Insulin growth factor 1 is undetectable, aside from anything short of a muscle biopsy IIRC, so there is yet another substance that anyone could be on.

And anyone that doubts what HGH can do is just fooling themselves. This is a drug who SIDE EFFECTS can cause excess growth in a number of bodyparts. Anything that you take that makes something that's not supposed to grow suddenly start to grow again is most definetly not overrated in it's potentcey.

Exactly. Taco Bell, this stuff is potent stuff. Maybe you should do some reading. It IS a fountain of YOUTH.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Top 3? Only top 3? Hey Sultan, I guess Pujols has to slug 1.000 to surpass Ruth's best season in you mind, huh? :laugh

:laugh

Glad you two got a kick out of that. I was being serious though. It was, of course, "fantasy speak," but still. The .900 by itself wouldn't be enough to pass Ruth, but if he slugs .900, then that means his other numbers will be ungodly (unRuthly;)), which will make the overall season the best ever :cool:

Keep chuckling you two... :dance

[west coast orange and black]

wags: I truly believe that this year Pujols will surpass Bonds as the game's best hitter especially if he slugs .900

after more than a dozen years of being top dog it hasta happen some time.
if pujols is the heir-apparent, right on.

[Taco De Muerte]

Exactly. Taco Bell, this stuff is potent stuff. Maybe you should do some reading. It IS a fountain of YOUTH.

Taco Bell ?

Comeon man, if your going to toss out insults, atleast make them funny.

Anyway, I won't even bother explaining exactly what HGH does in terms of " enhancing " someone's performance - Nothing can ever change your mind. I've tried before, and it doesn't work - You just believe what you want.

Anything bonds takes, eats, or drinks enhanced his performance greatly - If this is the lie you want to live by, so be it, live in your fantasy world. After this post, I'm done arguing with you about this issue.

I'll just submit this article on HGH and why it's overrated in some ways - http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/growthh1228/index.shtml



"I am a proponent of [HGH] in general, but it is not the magic answer that people thought it was. It is not a big gun in anti-aging, and it is overrated," says Ullis.

After taking the hormone himself for 18 months, Ullis now believes other supplements and lifestyle changes can produce the same results — and for far less money. A year's supply of the hormone will run you about $5,000.

"I think people are wasting their money on HGH," says Ullis. "You can get more HGH from exercise and sleeping better if you take melatonin or amino acids before you go to bed. Caloric restriction could also elevate HGH over time because calorie deprivation turns on growth factors in the body," says Ullis.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: It IS a fountain of YOUTH.

IS NOT.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Taco Bell ?

Comeon man, if your going to toss out insults, atleast make them funny.

Anyway, I won't even bother explaining exactly what HGH does in terms of " enhancing " someone's performance - Nothing can ever change your mind. I've tried before, and it doesn't work - You just believe what you want.

Anything bonds takes, eats, or drinks enhanced his performance greatly - If this is the lie you want to live by, so be it, live in your fantasy world. After this post, I'm done arguing with you about this issue.

I'll just submit this article on HGH and why it's overrated in some ways - http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/growthh1228/index.shtml



"I am a proponent of [HGH] in general, but it is not the magic answer that people thought it was. It is not a big gun in anti-aging, and it is overrated," says Ullis.

After taking the hormone himself for 18 months, Ullis now believes other supplements and lifestyle changes can produce the same results — and for far less money. A year's supply of the hormone will run you about $5,000.

"I think people are wasting their money on HGH," says Ullis. "You can get more HGH from exercise and sleeping better if you take melatonin or amino acids before you go to bed. Caloric restriction could also elevate HGH over time because calorie deprivation turns on growth factors in the body," says Ullis.

Wasn't trying to be funny, and it wasn't meant as an insult. Unless you've got a Bell phobia we all don't know about. It just came out after I typed Taco, so that's my bad.

There will be articles and accounts from both of our sides that "prove" we're right. I've read all about HGH and it's benefits. It's basically dubbed the "fountain of youth" drug. No worries. We just disagree about what it's about.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan: It IS a fountain of YOUTH.

IS NOT.

------IS 2

[west coast orange and black]

yeah, no worries.

[west coast orange and black]

It just came out after I typed Taco...

the dog ate my homework.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

It just came out after I typed Taco...

the dog ate my homework.

And the dog had been drinking too?

[west coast orange and black]

you tell me.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

you tell me.

Like a fish.

And yes, I said "my bad." ;)

[west coast orange and black]

And yes, I said "my bad."

uh-huh. and you also wrote "It just came out after I typed Taco", as in "and then the gun just went off"

[Sultan_1895-1948]

And yes, I said "my bad."

uh-huh. and you also wrote "It just came out after I typed Taco", as in "and then the gun just went off"

It did WC. I was holding it, but it did. So be it. Gimme a little more friekin' credit than that. If I was gonna try to be funny, do you think "Taco Bell" would be the best I have? :rolleyes:

[west coast orange and black]

you want more freakin' credit than i already give?
dude.:dance you've maxed out four cards already.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

you want more freakin' credit than i already give?
dude.:dance you've maxed out four cards already.

I only ask for what is truly deserved :radio

We've wasted about 10 posts on some stupid reference that came while typing on the go :rolleyes: As a mod, you should be ashamed of yourself :cool: If that happened for every time someone did that on here, we'd never have any discussion with any depth.

We're on opposite ends of "whatever" spectrum which happens to be Bonds related, and we've managed to remain civil. I'd like it to stay that way. Sound good buddy? :D

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: As a mod, you should be ashamed of yourself

*shudder*

[ESPNFan]

Taco Bell ?

Comeon man, if your going to toss out insults, atleast make them funny.

Anyway, I won't even bother explaining exactly what HGH does in terms of " enhancing " someone's performance - Nothing can ever change your mind. I've tried before, and it doesn't work - You just believe what you want.

Anything bonds takes, eats, or drinks enhanced his performance greatly - If this is the lie you want to live by, so be it, live in your fantasy world. After this post, I'm done arguing with you about this issue.

I'll just submit this article on HGH and why it's overrated in some ways - http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/growthh1228/index.shtml

You know I really don't think you can explain what HGH does in terms of anything because just from the links your provide to support your arguments you show everyone that your clearly don't understand the difference between anti aging and performance enhancing.

You linked an article that delt with ANTI AGING aspects of HGH. The person in the link that thought HGH worked for him was 65 years old. This isn't a article that deals with what HGH can do for a healthy adult male in his 20's or 30's. Its no refering to what HGH does in doses well over recomended percription level. Hell even the second page of the link didn't work. And did you even read the portion of the article that mentioned "Because HGH affects protein, glucose, fat and carbohydrate metabolism" and wonder how it affects those processes?

Go to any reputable medical research website and it will state that HGH increases/builds lean muscle in a persons body while reducing fat. In terms of athletics that's hardly overrated. There is also a school of thought that taking HGH with Anabolic Steroids helps because it strenghtens and reinforces tendons to prevent the failures that have been linked to steroid abuse.

HGH might not be a fountain of youth but it most certainly has aspects that will help athletes.

[west coast orange and black]

espn, what do you know about human growth hormone taken by itself, without parallel steroid use?

[ESPNFan]

espn, what do you know about human growth hormone taken by itself, without parallel steroid use?

To make it simple HGH makes you grow when your young and regulates some body fuctions (metabolisim etc..)when you get older. Its released from the pituatary gland and HGH activates bone growth and also stimulates muscle/tissue growth. HGH is related to the release of IGF-1 Insulin Growth Factor 1 in the body, which is another substance that Baseball players are using Anabolicly, according to Will Carroll (its also undetectable). Growth Hormone also aids with protien synthisis, the bodies use of amino acids.
As we get older we produce less and less because we don't need it to physically grow but to govern body fuction. Anti Aging school of thought is to therepudicly rasie the levels of HGH in older people (60+) to restore a level of vitality and health and possibly slow or reverse the effects of aging. The Doping aspect is to take massive amounts of it in order to build lean muscle and strenghten connective tissue.

You can see how the Bone growth aspects of HGH would give the undesireable side effects that we have seen warnings about (abnormal growth etc..). I believe this is one reason why Ball players and other athletes are turning to IGF-1 because I don't believe that IGF-1 instigates bone growth.

WCOB again I'm not a Dr. or a Ph.D so I could be mistaken. But as far as I know from the things I have read these are facts.

[Taco De Muerte]

There will be articles and accounts from both of our sides that "prove" we're right. I've read all about HGH and it's benefits. It's basically dubbed the "fountain of youth" drug. No worries. We just disagree about what it's about.

Fair enough. If you want to believe it's the foutain of youth based on what you've read or heard, I'm fine with that. From what I've read and heard, it's basically used with other steroids to prevent injuries to ligaments. It's " fountain of youth " name it's recently got is very overrated.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Fair enough. If you want to believe it's the foutain of youth based on what you've read or heard, I'm fine with that. From what I've read and heard, it's basically used with other steroids to prevent injuries to ligaments. It's " fountain of youth " name it's recently got is very overrated.

We can argue all we want about whether it deserves the label "fountain of youth," but the bottom line is, that HGH production reduces dramatically as we age. Replacing that chemical which is reducing, is in fact, reversing the aging process, or maintaining your youth longer than what is natural.

I believe ESPN touched on this, but I don't think we have controlled studies of athletes who are just past their prime, taking HGH in the levels that these guys are taking. There's just no way to pinpoint exactly how much it helps when taken in extreme amounts, when taken with lord knows what other chemicals, and when they workout the way they do.

Just think: If it can do these things for a 65 year old man, what would it do for a 35-40 year old athlete who takes higher doses, takes it with other stuff, and who works out and eats properly.

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http://www.hghamerica.com/learnmore.html

What HGH does…
Your body naturally produces HGH (Human Growth Hormone) and uses it for tissue, bone and muscle development and for generally maintaining healthy body function.


As shown below, aging causes a natural decline in HGH production. This can lead to a variety of health issues and general physical deterioration:

Age HGH Level

18---1000
20---775
25---500
30---375
35---325
40---300
85---225

Increasing HGH levels has been proven to reduce the symptoms of aging and improve overall health within a matter of weeks!

» Decreased Body Fat ---------» Increased Muscle Mass
» Improved Mental Clarity------» Boosted Sexual Potency
» Lowered Blood Pressure------» Elevated Sleep Levels
» Enhanced Mood-------------» Thickening of Skin (less wrinkles)

"The effects of six months of growth hormone on lean body mass and adipose-tissue mass were equivalent in magnitude to the changes incurred during 10 to 20 years of aging."
~ Daniel Rudman, M.D., Medical College of Wisconsin.

"We really have something here which may be able to reverse some of the problems associated with aging."
~ Dr. Anthony Karpos, M.D.

"All of these ideas about treating people with growth hormone have been directed towards people sixty-five and older. If you look at the data, people have so-called 'elderly' levels by age forty. Perhaps we should be giving HGH replacement therapy earlier rather than attempting to treat tissues that have seen little or no growth hormone for decades."
~ Dr. Eve Van Cauter, GH researcher, University of Chicago Medical Center.

"Daily Administration of growth hormone in the first week after trauma would enhance the metabolic status.... resulting in reduced morbidity and earlier discharge from hospital." (May 1992, Journal of Surgery. Vol. 111, 495-502.)
~ Drs. Ramias, Shamos, and Schiller of St. Joseph Hospital Medical Center in Phoenix, AZ

"By replenishing your supply of growth hormone, you can recover your vigor, health, looks and sexuality. For the first time in human history, we can intervene in the aging process, restore many aspects of youth, resist disease, substantially improve the quality of life, perhaps extend the life span itself. The 'Fountain of Youth' lies within the cells of each of us. All you need to do is release it."
~ Dr. Ronald Klatz, world renowned expert on anti-aging, founder and president of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.

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http://hgh.lx.ro/

Researchers studied the normal levels of HGH patterns in adults. At age 21, the normal level of HGH is approximately 10 milligrams per deciliter of blood. After age 30, the secretion rate drops by 14 percent, every 10 years. By the age of 61, the human growth hormone is diminished by 80 percent, down to 2 milligrams. Over the age of 75, the body barely produces enough HGH to build a toenail.

What is HGH?

Human Growth Agent is a revolutionary formula of bioidentical hormones designed for natural anti aging therapy. Human Growth Hormone (HGH) is the most abundant hormone produced by one of the endocrine glands: the pituitary gland. This gland is located in the center of the brain. HGH is also a very complex hormone. It is made up of 191 amino acids - making it fairly large for a hormone. In fact, it is the largest protein created by the pituitary gland.
HGH secretion reaches its peak in the body during adolescence. This makes sense because bioidentical hormones helps stimulate our body to grow. But, growth hormones secretion does not stop after adolescence. Our body continue to produce growth hormones usually in short bursts during deep sleep. As we get older our body produces less amounts of growth hormone. Human Growth Agent is designed to help your body naturally increase it's own levels of HGH. Increased levels of growth hormones can assist in weightloss and muscle gain. HGH can also increase your energy level and may assist sexual performance and endurance.

Human Growth Hormone is known to be critical for tissue repair, muscle growth, healing, brain function, physical and mental health, bone strength, energy and metabolism. In short, it is very important to just about every aspect of our life!

Dr. Rudman studied men between the ages of 61 and 80 who were overweight. These men did not alter their diet, exercise, or smoking habits. When they were given HGH, they gained an average of 8.8% in lean muscle mass while losing 14% of their body fat. They experienced localized increases in bone density and their skin became thicker and firmer. The subjects of this study reversed these parameters of aging by 10-20 years.

Fountain of Youth Inside...
Dr. Ronald Klatz, world renowned expert on anti-aging, founder and president of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine: "By replenishing your supply of growth hormone, you can recover your vigor, health, looks and sexuality. For the first time in human history, we can intervene in the aging process, restore many aspects of youth, resist disease, substantially improve the quality of life, perhaps extend the life span itself. The 'Fountain of Youth' lies within the cells of each of us. All you need to do is release it."

Increase Lean Body Mass...
Daniel Rudman, M.D., New England Journal of Medice: "The effects of six months of human growth hormone on lean body mass and adipose-tissue were equivalent in magnitude to the changes incurred during 10-20 years of aging."
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AR