Lingering bad blood

[trosmok]

Pitchers coming inside has always been part of the game, and this early season is no different. A purpose pitch, chin music, dust 'em stuff has been fairly consistent, but yesterday's Rockies v. Giants game was over the top. RHP Matt Morris plunked Matt Holliday in the first, and two batters later planted a high hard one right between Eli Marrero's shoulder blades after having been warned by plate ump Travis Reininger. For those that missed it, Felipe Alou and Dave Righetti also got the thumb in the first. Rockies reliever Ray King was ejected for hitting Omar Vizquel in the eighth, Clint Hurdle argued until he, too, was ejected. I didn't see what happened the night before, but evidently Jose Mesa drilled Vizquel in the eighth, stemming from a feud that has been brewing since '02. Vizquel had ripped Mesa in a book for blowing the '97 WS game 7 when they were both with Cleveland, and the quarrel has erupted several times since.

Looking over the stats, I was surprised to see Barry Zito leading MLB with five hit batsmen, and several others have three including Pedro. Are there any other simmering disputes that are likely to boil over into beanballs early this season? Secondly, do you think the umpires are often too quick with the warnings and tossing the managers/ coaches/ pitchers?

[Baseball Guru]

By any chance did Marrero and Morris have issues while they were in St. Louis?

I believe the 1st batter was intentional but I have a hard time believing that Morris hit Marrero intentionally after playing together with him for so many years in St. Louis... I would think that he he were going to hit another batter intentionally it would be any other player in that lineup except Marrero...

JMO:)

[Dravecky43]

Pitchers coming inside has always been part of the game, and this early season is no different. A purpose pitch, chin music, dust 'em stuff has been fairly consistent, but yesterday's Rockies v. Giants game was over the top. RHP Matt Morris plunked Matt Holliday in the first, and two batters later planted a high hard one right between Eli Marrero's shoulder blades after having been warned by plate ump Travis Reininger. For those that missed it, Felipe Alou and Dave Righetti also got the thumb in the first. Rockies reliever Ray King was ejected for hitting Omar Vizquel in the eighth, Clint Hurdle argued until he, too, was ejected. I didn't see what happened the night before, but evidently Jose Mesa drilled Vizquel in the eighth, stemming from a feud that has been brewing since '02. Vizquel had ripped Mesa in a book for blowing the '97 WS game 7 when they were both with Cleveland, and the quarrel has erupted several times since.
First of all, only two of those hit batters were intentional. Jose Mesa is the cause of it all. Mesa started it on Saturday by plunking Vizquel. For some out-of-this-world reason, Mesa wasn't thrown out. It was pretty clear he threw it at Omar's head (Vizquel threw his shoulder up to deflect the ball). Morris hit Holliday in retaliation of Mesa's selfish doings. The second beanball by Morris was unintentional. Many Giants and Rockies players are saying the same thing, including one Eli Marrero. Both teams had been warned, though, so Morris and Alou were immediately ejected. Righetti threw his pitch counter onto the field in anger and was tossed himself.
Later in the game, King hit Vizquel. It seemed to me to be unintentional, but because of the warning King and Hurdle were ejected. That's basically how it all went down.
Secondly, do you think the umpires are often too quick with the warnings and tossing the managers/ coaches/ pitchers?
Yes. They need to consider situations and how the pitch was thrown and other factors.

[trosmok]

..... The second beanball by Morris was unintentional. Many Giants and Rockies players are saying the same thing, including one Eli Marrero.

Yes. They need to consider situations and how the pitch was thrown and other factors.

Marrero getting it right betwixt the shoulder blades sure looked intentional, but given the situation, I have to agree that it may have simply gotten away. I don't like to see anyone get beaned in the head, but it seems things were better policed when the players and managers lived and played by the unwritten rules. It is hard for me to imagine why some current players still go charging the mound when the inside pitch barely nicks their uniform sleeve.

[KCGHOST]

I am not sure that I buy the "Jose Mesa was the cause of it all". If I wrote about you what Vizquel wrote about Mesa you'd probably throw baseballs at me everytime you got a chance. Vizquel knows that he has wronged Mesa in that regard. Why do you think Omar just lowers his head and runs straight to 1B after Mesa plunks him? It isn't professionalism.

[Mattingly]

Pedro hit 3 batters in one inning and Zito is leading the league in hit batsmen? Interesting.

The Yanks and Red Sawx haven't even played each other. We'll see if good baseball or base-brawl will be played.

As to the warnings, is it a top pitcher who's been on his game all day? As in many strikeouts, few walks? Whe Pedro hit those batters, it was argued in this thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41903) that he'd had very little spring training, so this was essentially his ST. He'd also missed his WBC games, so he was rusty.

If it's a rookie or someone who's a bit wild, or even if the hit is a curveball, that would not count as badly as would a 95mph heater to the head.

[west coast orange and black]

gatw has it correct all the way around.
mesa is the root of sunday's problems. he hit vizquel the day before -- he has vowed to hit vizquel every time the two meet. also, he has vowed to "kill" vizquel should omar ever finally lose and rush the mound.

mesa has displayed maniacal behavior. when someone shows me who he is, i believe him. why in the world mlb continues to allow mesa to continue to hit vizquel is a travesty.

[Mattingly]

gatw has it correct all the way around.
mesa is the root of sunday's problems. he hit vizquel the day before -- he has vowed to hit vizquel every time the two meet. also, he has vowed to "kill" vizquel should omar ever finally lose and rush the mound.

mesa has displayed maniacal behavior. when someone shows me who he is, i believe him. why in the world mlb continues to allow mesa to continue to hit vizquel is a travesty.
If Mesa has said that, then someone should've called Selig's office and mentioned that to him officially.

I'm guessing Vizquel is even-tempered, as he could've done a Bert Campaneris thing and thrown a bat at him.

[KHenry14]

If Mesa has said that, then someone should've called Selig's office and mentioned that to him officially.

I'm guessing Vizquel is even-tempered, as he could've done a Bert Campaneris thing and thrown a bat at him.

I would be astounded if Selig doesn't know about this, as it's been around for a couple of years. Yet is any of us surprised that nothing is done?

People in Cleveland and SF have come to know the kind of person Omar is, and we have embraced him. Mesa on the other hand....

One wonders what it is going to take to put a stop to this. :confused:

[Mattingly]

I would be astounded if Selig doesn't know about this, as it's been around for a couple of years. Yet is any of us surprised that nothing is done?

People in Cleveland and SF have come to know the kind of person Omar is, and we have embraced him. Mesa on the other hand....

One wonders what it is going to take to put a stop to this. :confused:
Considering that when Pedro (and especially Clemens) were in the AL, people always said that they'd never get away with that in the NL, where they'd potentially have to face their own medicine.

After Clemens hit Piazza in July of 2000, many Mets fans clamored for him to pitch Game 1 of that year's WS, since he'd pitch at Shea Stadium. He pitched Game 2, thus avoiding Shea Stadium altogether.

It wasn't until a few years later that he'd finally pitched at Shea, then got shelled, 8-zip (around 2002). This in a game where journeyman Sean Estes threw a pitch *BEHIND* Clemens glutes. Several Yankee fans wondered aloud how Sean could've missed a target that huge. :D :crazy

Anyway, since we're talking about the NL, how come Mesa hasn't had some chin music come his way? Nobody on the San Fran team willing to teach him how to skip rope?

[riverfrontier]

i've been living in taiwan for the past few years, so i'm a bit out of the loop on some of the fringe stories that make the rounds. i don't know what was said by whom about whom. anybody got the scoop?

[jwkfs]

i've been living in taiwan for the past few years, so i'm a bit out of the loop on some of the fringe stories that make the rounds. i don't know what was said by whom about whom. anybody got the scoop?

In his book, "Omar! My Life On and Off the Field," Vizquel wrote about game 7 of the WS against the Marlins, where Mesa blew the save. He had this to say about Jose:


The eyes of the world were focused on every move we made. Unfortunately, Jose's own eyes were vacant. Completely empty. Nobody home. You could almost see right through him. Not long after I looked into his vacant eyes, he blew the save and the Marlins tied the game. ”


Mesa was quite upset about this, and said, "I will not forgive him. Even my little boy (Jose Jr.) told me to get him. If I face him 10 more times, I'll hit him 10 times. I want to kill him."



Anyway, since we're talking about the NL, how come Mesa hasn't had some chin music come his way? Nobody on the San Fran team willing to teach him how to skip rope?

Mesa is in the set up role for the Rockies in front of Fuentes, so he understandably doesn't come up to bat much :D

I can understand Mesa being upset about what Vizquel wrote about him, but his response seems a little extreme.

[trosmok]

....
I can understand Mesa being upset about what Vizquel wrote about him, but his response seems a little extreme.

I'm wondering what the response from MLB's disciplinarian, VP Bob Watson will be. I recall him really laying it on the D-Rays and Red Sox in terms of fines and especially suspensions after a couple of bench clearing donnybrooks, but I still think pitchers get off rather easy since they seldom pitch every day. It usually takes a few days for Bob and Slug to review the events and decide on appropriate measures, but it sounds like Mesa is out for blood and will not be deterred by a few coins or days off.

[Mattingly]

Mesa is in the set up role for the Rockies in front of Fuentes, so he understandably doesn't come up to bat much :D

I can understand Mesa being upset about what Vizquel wrote about him, but his response seems a little extreme.
Even if he doesn't step into the box, if he keeps plunking the same guy, I say that one bat thrown his way could send a far stronger message than any fine or suspension that Bob Watson ever could delve out.

Not that I'm promoting violence, but if he can't keep things under control, a flying bat going his way could do wonders to make him consider doing this. Of course, it would greatly change Vizquel's perception as the "nice guy", but I wouldn't blame him.

[CuriousBoston]

gatw has it correct all the way around.
mesa is the root of sunday's problems. he hit vizquel the day before -- he has vowed to hit vizquel every time the two meet. also, he has vowed to "kill" vizquel should omar ever finally lose and rush the mound.

mesa has displayed maniacal behavior. when someone shows me who he is, i believe him. why in the world mlb continues to allow mesa to continue to hit vizquel is a travesty.

A threat to kill someone is a felony. Why didn't Vizquel, team, press charges? We all know what a hit to the head can do..

[Ursa Major]

Here's a more complete story about the origins of the situation going back almost eight years: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/56157.html (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/56157.html) . As I would expect, Vizquel was a class act all the way, and tried to cut Mesa some slack even after Mesa's threat to kill him.

Of course, Vizquel is right about Mesa. He's been gutless for years in big situations. He was on the Giants for a half season and was supposed to be a big time reliever, and they just used him in mopup before unloading him in the off-season. All you need to know about Mesa is that he carries this grudge all this time; if he didn't feel it had hit home or had an ounce of maturity, he would have let it go long ago.

That he hasn't let it go and is still aiming at Vizquel while threatening to kill him is some scary, scary s**t. When one player with a lethal weapon has that kind of vendetta, it gets really scary, cuz it's not about chin music. You gotta tell Mesa that any time he hits a targeted opponent after that kinda threat, it's a criminal act and he sits for 30 days.

What's astonishing is that the umps on the game had no clue about the vendetta or the previous plunkings. So, they started with a clean slate, and Morris got the thumb for it.

[rockin500]

has he ever thrown at his head when hes come to the plate? if not, go right on ahead mesa, keep drilling him in the ribs, back, butt, or legs.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ ballplayers hafta think and see and stuff, so the head is useful. but, have you ever hard of a player whose career ended because of injury to his leg? back?

[west coast orange and black]

^^ ballplayers hafta think and see and stuff, so the head is useful. but, have you ever hard of a player whose career ended because of injury to a leg? a shoulder? his back?

mesa's dangerous antics oughtta be stopped immediately.
they ought not be enjoyed.

[rockin500]

i'm sorry, but i cant feel any sympathy for vizquel. If he didnt want to have this problem, he didnt need to throw Mesa under the bus.

and no i havent heard of anyones career ended because of getting drilled in the leg, shoulder or back as those are big meaty areas where there is usually a lot of meat. you can argue that nomar's career hasnt been the same since getting drilled in the wrist, but not much meat there.