Is Pujols already a first tier Cardinal?

[Designated Fielder]

The Cardinals have a long line of successful players. The most successful in my opinion are Musial, Hornsby, and Gibson.

Brock, Ozzie, Joe Medwick, Frankie Frisch, and Dizzy Dean are at the second level. Pujols can probably already be seen at the 2nd level of Cardinal greats, but how about the 1st level.

The 1st level are the super greats.

[StanTheMan]

Hard to argue with Musial, Gibson and Hornsby.....

Pujols will be a top tier Cardinal very, very soon. One more MVP, another WS apperance (hopefully with better results) and he's there. I think someday he will win the Triple Crown......

Think about this.... If Pujols stays healthy this year, he will undoubtedly surpass (blow away really) the following numbers.

At least .300 average]
At least 30 HR
At least 100 RBI
At least 100 runs scored.

If he does so, it will be his SIXTH consecutive season to start his career in which he surpassed those numbers. And he is CRUSHING those numbers.

No other player in the history of MLB, that's more than 100 years of organized professional baseball in this country, has been able to surpass all four of these numbers for more than TWO seasons to start a career.

SIX for Albert??? That's Three Times as Long as anyone else.... EVER.

Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Gherig, Stan The Man, Williams, DiMaggio, etc. none of them did it more than their first two seasons.

Albert is an alien or something..... Watch him hit every chance you get. If you don't have a TV, steal one so you can watch him hit.

Bryan in Indy

[starkeeper]

Ozzie isn't first tier?? You have some tough prerequistes. I would suggest that Pujols is first tier and so is Ozzie!!

[Designated Fielder]

I think by a first tier Cardinal. I am using the views of the members who discuss who the first tier Hall of Famers are on this website. I think that there would be little argument that Gibson, Musial, and Hornsby are first tier hall of famers.

LIkewise, under his current trend, Pujols is a no doubt first tier Hall of Famers.

As for the second tier, there has been arguments that dispute that Brock, Ozzie, Dizzy, etc are hall of famers although I do not think so.

[KCGHOST]

As good a fielder as Smith was, he isn't first tier. The guy didn't hit a lick for his career and certainly not enough to justify a first tier ranking.

As for Albert, he's getting close but we need to see him spent more/most of his career in a Cardinals uniform before anointing him as one of the Cardinal greats.

[starkeeper]

As good a fielder as Smith was, he isn't first tier. The guy didn't hit a lick for his career and certainly not enough to justify a first tier ranking.

As for Albert, he's getting close but we need to see him spent more/most of his career in a Cardinals uniform before anointing him as one of the Cardinal greats.

Point well taken for Albert, but Ozzie was about the best shortstop I have ever seen, however, I am new to the site and a distant Cards fan (geographically), so I will accept your opinion.

[StanTheMan]

"about the best SS I ever saw...."

If you are talking defense at the most important infield defensive position... Ozzie was undoubtedly the best there ever was. There is no "about" about it. :)

He may be the best defensive player at ANY position, ever. DiMaggio was a great defender, but so was Mays, and Clemente was another great defensive outfielder.

Mazeroski was incredible, but so was Sandberg. Brooks Robinson was astonishing, but Mike Schmidt has 10 Gold Gloves, and Scott Rolen has a mantle with 7, or is it 6.

Nobody comes close to Ozzie Smith. Aparacio? Boudreau? Ripken? None had the incredible range or athletic ability of the Wizard... not even close. He got to more balls, and threw out more runners than the other guys could even imagine. His assists records will not be broken imo (partly due to the emphasis on sluggers now, who hit fewer ground balls, but mostly due to Ozzie's abilities). Barry Larkin?? When Ozzie's run of 13 consecutive Gold Gloves ended, Larkin did not even win the next one..

Yeah, I know the GG award can be a bit of a popularity contest, but all the Reds fans around Indy STILL talk about Larkin like he was some kind of legendary defensive player.... but these idiots probably can't spell Dave Concepcion.

Was he a great hitter? Certainly not. But he was a solid hitter, worked hard at it, imprved at the end of his careeer, and was vastly underrated as a contact hitter. To simply cast Ozzie off as a one trick pony is both shortsided, and uninformed.

Ozzie's average for his last 10 full seasons was .279. To put it another way, using strictly batting average, (and I'm completely conceding the point that Ozzie was a below average power hitter, even for a SS in the 80's and 90's)his last 10 seasons were better than Cal Ripken's career batting average. Ripken was considered a good hitting SS in his day.....

Ozzie's career number of strikeouts was 589. Not terribly significant in and of itself, but pretty remarkable when you consider he had 9,396 at bats.

Derek Jeter has ALREADY struck out more than Twice as many times as Ozzie did, and Jeter is a VERY good hitter. Miguel Tejada... perhaps the premier hitting SS of today, is on pace to K more than THREE TIMES more than Ozzie did. Do ANY chicks dig more than the long ball? They should.

[64Cards]

I'll agree completely with Stan's assesment of Ozzie. SS is above all a position where defensive ability is paramount and no one did it better than Ozzie, plus it's not a case where he hurt you in the lineup, always had a good OBP, an excellent basestealer, just had very little power.

As for Albert, barring some terrible injury or tragic accident, I can't see how he can avoid becoming one of the truly greatest players, not just to wear the Cards uniform, but of all time. He is totally committed to his profession and as good as he was his first 5 years, is even better today.

[Designated Fielder]

Is ozzie a first-tier Cardinal? Is Ozzie by his defensive prowess alone in the same standard as Musial and Gibson? I don't think so. Musial and Gibson are among the tops in the National League.

Ozzie is, therefore, in the second tier. He may be a bit above the other seond tier players that I included such as Brock, Dizzy, and Medwick. That is what makes this intersting.

I think part of what why Ozzie has a high ranking in the minds of some Cardinals fans is because of his recent retirement. Others on the Baseball fever website has criticized Brock, but I think that one has to look at Brock in the context of his generation. Rickey Henderson has overshadowed Brock, and has made him less appealling. Likewise, I think that Dizzy Dean fits in the same category. Dizzy Dean was his generations Sandy Koufax. Koufax is more current so he gets lots of support, but Dean may have been the best National pitcher of the 30s. I only see Carl Hubbell giving him any competition for that title.

Both 1st and 2nd tier Cardinals are great players, and Pujols obviously is at least a second tier Cardinal now with the possibility of joining the ranks of the first tier

[BaylorDan]

As good a fielder as Smith was, he isn't first tier. The guy didn't hit a lick for his career...
Smith improved as a hitter and from age 30 to 38, hit from .276 to .303 except for one year. His career average was .262. He is clearly a first tier Cardinal.

[starkeeper]

This is what is inscribed on the "Wizard's" plaque in Cooperstown.
He is not only "first tier" Cardinal, he is "first tier" all of baseball.



OSBORNE EARL SMITH
"Ozzie" "The Wizard"
SAN DIEGO, N.L., 1978-1981
ST. LOUIS, N.L., 1982-1996
REVOLUTIONIZED DEFENSIVE PLAY AT SHORTSTOP WITH HIS ACROBATIC
FIELDING AND ARTISTIC TURNING OF DOUBLE PLAYS. THE 13-TIME GOLD
GLOVE WINNER SET SIX MAJOR LEAGUE FIELDING RECORDS AMONG
SHORTSTOPS, INCLUDING MOST ASSISTS, DOUBLE PLAYS AND CHANCES
ACCEPTED. AN EFFECTIVE OFFENSIVE PLAYER, HE ACCUMULATED 2,460
HITS AND STOLE 580 BASES. NAMED TO 15 ALL-STAR TEAMS. HIS
RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF PERFECTION HELPED LEAD THE CARDINALS TO
THREE WORLD SERIES, INCLUDING A 1982 CHAMPIONSHIP. HIS
CONGENIAL PERSONALITY, CONSUMMATE PROFESSIONALISM AND
TRADEMARK BACK FLIP MADE "THE WIZARD" A FAN FAVORITE.

[LoyalCardinalFan]

Amen STAN THE MAN I toally agree with you 100% on Ozzie Smith chatter

[csh19792001]

Q: Is Pujols already a first tier Cardinal?

A: Yes. he's demonstrated himself to be one of the greatest players the Cardinals have had in their storied 120 years of existence.

[hubkittel]

This is what is inscribed on the "Wizard's" plaque in Cooperstown.
He is not only "first tier" Cardinal, he is "first tier" all of baseball.



OSBORNE EARL SMITH
"Ozzie" "The Wizard"
SAN DIEGO, N.L., 1978-1981
ST. LOUIS, N.L., 1982-1996
REVOLUTIONIZED DEFENSIVE PLAY AT SHORTSTOP WITH HIS ACROBATIC
FIELDING AND ARTISTIC TURNING OF DOUBLE PLAYS. THE 13-TIME GOLD
GLOVE WINNER SET SIX MAJOR LEAGUE FIELDING RECORDS AMONG
SHORTSTOPS, INCLUDING MOST ASSISTS, DOUBLE PLAYS AND CHANCES
ACCEPTED. AN EFFECTIVE OFFENSIVE PLAYER, HE ACCUMULATED 2,460
HITS AND STOLE 580 BASES. NAMED TO 15 ALL-STAR TEAMS. HIS
RELENTLESS PURSUIT OF PERFECTION HELPED LEAD THE CARDINALS TO
THREE WORLD SERIES, INCLUDING A 1982 CHAMPIONSHIP. HIS
CONGENIAL PERSONALITY, CONSUMMATE PROFESSIONALISM AND
TRADEMARK BACK FLIP MADE "THE WIZARD" A FAN FAVORITE.
i couldn't have put it any better myself.