My Search for Mankin Style THT/BHT

[joof]

My Search for Mankin Style THT/BHT

The force being applied to the bat as a result of the back arm of a hitter being rotated about an axis, as revealed in a computer simulation by Paul Nyman, is completely unrelated in timing and mechanical origin to the THT espoused by Jack Mankin and several other believers. I find that I can only execute useful swings with BHT-THT as a driver of angular displacement of the bat via thought experiments. My inability to physically execute this type swing in a timely manner parallels my inability to find evidence of the BHT-THT component in video of high level swings. My conclusions are based in part on the reasoning that follows. If for instance a torque does exist at the start of the swing as a result of a force delivered via the top hand, then by definition there is an axis of rotation related to this torque. It has to be located on the bat handle between the hands or even under the bottom hand (it serving as the hinge). Of course, if THT and BHT exist in a complementary fashion and if forces from each hand are equal then the optimum position of the axis of rotation will be equidistant between the hands. Upon the application of BHT-THT the bat must rotate about the axis of rotation between the hands. Assuming that THT-BHT exist in a swing, the overall angular displacement of the bat during the swing will be a result of two axes of rotation; the body rotating about an axis and thus moving a connected bat in arc relative to the body’s axis of rotation and the bat also being moved in an arc associated with the axis of rotation between the hands(THT-BHT). I assume that the BHT-THT bat swing plane and the swing plane of the bat resulting from body rotation are the same. All of this to say that when I view clips of high level swings, I see the movement of the bat at the onset of rotation occurring in one swing plane while tracking the rotation of the body. For purposes of monitoring the distance between the bat and back shoulder of the hitter let’s attach an imaginary link between the hitter’s back shoulder and a midpoint on the bat(another distance that may more useful is that between a midpoint on the bat and the hitters back elbow). This shoulder-bat link appears to remain essentially the same length(may in fact narrow with some hitters) until the unhinging of the wrist late in the swing (hooking action of bat knob). If BHT-THT was operating from onset of the swing, I would expect this linkage to lengthen – in fact an accelerated lengthening or separation would occur between the midpoint on the bat and back shoulder from the onset of the swing due to the bat rotating about the BHT-THT axis of rotation. Of course the movement of the bat due to the BHT-THT forces would be anatomically limited (as pointed out by JJA among a series of excellent posts on the topic of THT and BHT at http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=305&st=60). I believe this is due to the limits on ulnar deviation of the wrist(ca. 30 degrees). In order to actively contribute (excluding momentum transfer)to batspeed at contact the movement of the bat due to BHT-THT must be metered out over the timeframe of the swing’s rotation at least and also be within the physical 30 degree limit.

Another consideration is the relative positioning of a midpoint on the bat to the hitter’s back elbow at the instance prior to the unhinging of the wrist or what I am calling the lag position of the swing. Using the change in distance between midpoint on the bat and the hitters back elbow may be the better measure of the existence of bat rotation via BHT-THT. Video evidence indicates that the elbow-bat distance at the onset of rotation does not increase during the course of rotation or upon reaching the lag position. This result is contrary to what might be expected if the bat had been rotating via the application of BHT-THT through some positive angle from the onset of rotation. In closing, with the appropriate technology, the parameters I have employed in the analysis of video of high level swings can be used with live swings to provide additional evidence relating to the existence of BHT-THT in high level swings.


Thanks, joof

[chesspirate]

Just to be completely clear, I am going to post the best 'definition' of THT i could find on the net. I think i found this at batspeed.com.

I don't agree with it, just wanted the info to be available for scrutiny

Enjoy?

"To explain the mechanics of how the large muscles are involved in this transfer, I am going to describe the swing mechanics of a Ken Griffey Jr., or hitters of his caliber, just prior to making contact. --- The large muscles in his legs and back have rotated his hips and shoulders to a point where the belly button and chest are now facing the pitcher. His lead shoulder is now starting to rotate back in the direction of the catcher. This means that the lead arm, and thus the bottom hand, are now being pulling back toward the catcher as the bat approaches contact. --- At the same time the rear shoulder (and top hand) are rotating around toward the pitcher.
This "pulling back" of the bottom hand as the top hand is being "driven forward", generates a tremendous amount of TORQUE on the bat. Torque is the result of forces being applied to the bat from opposing directions that causes an object (the bat) to rotate about a point between the two hands.
So, in the swing of a great hitter, what appears to be wrist action is actually the "push - pull" action of the hands generating a large amount of torque. This torque was developed from the large muscle groups and causes the bat head to be greatly accelerated. --- If the batter does not initiate the swing with torque and rotational forces, he will not be able to obtain the position of power required to apply maximum torque to the bat before contact. This is especially true for pitches on the outside part of the plate."

[swingbuster]

If for instance a torque does exist at the start of the swing as a result of a force delivered via the top hand, then by definition there is an axis of rotation related to this torque. It has to be located on the bat handle between the hands or even under the bottom hand (it serving as the hinge)

I wrote this ( in bold) a year ago in the webball challenge. I agree there is a axis of rotation on the bat. See my quote copied from that article from one year ago

"You see there are three rotation centers involved in hitting. They are the turning hips, the turning shoulders, and the more obscure rotation center between the flat hands


BHUT is a backwards rotation on that axis occuring in the loading phase of some swings.


Maybe we can get somewhere here

[GoDeep]

Swingbuster,

So, BHUT(bottom hand under top, correct?) is the cocking of the front wrist with the bat in the vertical position. then getting into launch the front wrist remains cocked and the bat is brought into the same plane as the lead upper arm as the back wrist is cocked... am i any where close to what you expound? new here so just trying to be clear. thanks

[Batsics1]

I'm confused by a number of things in the definition provided by Chesspirate. The statement, "If the batter does not initiate the swing with torque and rotational forces, he will not be able to obtain the position of power required to apply maximum torque to the bat before contact", is either redundant or a contradiction. Aren't torque and rotational force the same thing? The implication is that the "rotational force" is created by the hips and shoulders. That being the case then the torque would be a rotational force created by the hands to initiate the swing. Is this a counter-rotation? If not, how does initiating a rotational force put you in a power position to apply a second "maximum rotational force" before contact from the same source - the hands? If it is a counter move than why not set the hands in the proper position to begin with, prior to initiating the swing. It would be more efficient and repeatable. Can there really be that much benefit in creating more moving parts?

The second issue is with the statement, "His lead shoulder is now starting to rotate back in the direction of the catcher. This means that the lead arm, and thus the bottom hand, are now being pulling back toward the catcher as the bat approaches contact. --- At the same time the rear shoulder (and top hand) are rotating around toward the pitcher. This "pulling back" of the bottom hand as the top hand is being "driven forward", generates a tremendous amount of TORQUE on the bat. Torque is the result of forces being applied to the bat from opposing directions that causes an object (the bat) to rotate about a point between the two hands".

As stated, the "pulling back" and "driving forward" of the hands are a consequence of hip and shoulder rotation. This means that the most efficient way to transfer the rotational energy to the bat is through passive wrists and hands. Any activation of the hands prior to contact creates tension that would interrupt or impede efficient transfer of energy from the hips and shoulders. It would also seem that any torque created by the hands to initiate the swing would be released with the same negative effect. Perhaps the better terminology is BHS/THS bottom hand swivel/top hand swivel if, in fact, the hands/wrists transfer energy better as a passive hinge rather than an active lever.

Passive hands are essentially in failsafe mode until they naturally unhinge as a consequence of the rotational forces generated by the hips and shoulders. Meaning that they can become active to compensate for bad timing. OTOH, active hands can, and often do, create issues with efficient hip and shoulder rotation.

[swingbuster]

So, BHUT(bottom hand under top, correct?) is the cocking of the front wrist with the bat in the vertical position. then getting into launch the front wrist remains cocked and the bat is brought into the same plane as the lead upper arm as the back wrist is cocked... am i any where close to what you expound? new here so just trying to be clear. thanks

More than close my friend. Now your hips will get ahead of the shoulders and hands without trying to do that..it is another rotation center and a mechanism involved in the " whip theory" . You will get elastic energy in the torso and you hit it harder with a segmentalized body rather than the hands and hips turing together

If it is a counter move than why not set the hands in the proper position to begin with, prior to initiating the swing. It would be more efficient and repeatable. Can there really be that much benefit in creating more moving parts?

YOu wrote some good comments. You can set the hands in the right place. The problem is that the right place is not on plane. If you do the hands and hips can move together in a one piece turn. Also you can hit without that third rotation center optimized...many do. But the " highest level swings" in history did not.

[tom.guerry]

Williams experiende was that "preloading"/presetting messed up the swing.Believe him. You have to start with a good inward turn/hip coil/negative move to get the metronomic hip coking action.

start the swing wrong and the rest will be a mediocre exercise in comenstaion (assume destination is mlb swing).

[LClifton]

You can set the hands in the right place. The problem is that the right place is not on plane.
Donnie, could you take a minute and explain this? I guess my specific question is:
The hands are not on plane until something puts them on plane?
Shoulder tilt?
Shoulder tilt with rotation?
When the hands are up (Hank Aaron still) they are not "on plane" are they?
Or is this the arm action you refer to, that gets them(hands)on plane?
Sorry, a bunch of questions, just trying hard to understand what you mean by the hands on plane.

If you do the hands and hips can move together in a one piece turn. Also you can hit without that third rotation center optimized...many do.

Probably by splitting the quote I made this a little out of context.
This (if I understand) part of your post says: If you do put the hands in a wrong spot (off plane) that the hips and hands move together, which is not what you look for. Meaning, the separation part is non-existent.
But what is it that you mean by third rotation center?
1) Being between the hands or below bottom hand
2) Being the center of the body
3) What is the third?

LClifton

[swingbuster]

The hands are not on plane until something puts them on plane?
Posture and reversal of the elbow position. rear up to down and lead down to up.

Being between the hands

yes ..the reversal of the elbows torques the bat as the bottom hand moves the knob up/ forward and the top hand moves the barrel back/ down.....the shoulder rotation is occuring just as they begin to turn over

What is the third?

1 hips coil and uncoil


2. shoulder turn back then forward

3. the bat moves around a point between the hands

Segmentalization is the centers moving as a progressive linkage; not as one piece

If you do put the hands in a wrong spot (off plane) that the hips and hands move together, which is not what you look for. Meaning, the separation part is non-existent.

When you have your hands off plane when the rotation begins the hips and hands cannot move together and you usually cannot be top hand dominant.

[LClifton]

2. shoulder turn back then forward
Would I be accurate if I said the front shoulder moves down and in (toward the plate slightly) while the back shoulder moves up and slightly away from plate? (during the loading or coiling phase)

Then they reverse course in swing initiation?

Is this the arm action feature of the swing or is there more to it?

I'll put my cards on the table first in an attempt to understand.
If we just use Pujols as the example:
He does what you describe (with his shoulders) in the clip Tom analyzed.
IF I understand (probably I do not) that the arm action is a
pulling in of the hands (whereas bat tip points towards the plate a little or maybe a little to 2nd base)
uncoil begins and he then moves his hands slightly away from his body and begins to "flatten the bat" with his hands and shoulder action.
Is this the arm action?

-LClifton

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/baseball/2/apujols2.gif

[LClifton]

When you have your hands off plane when the rotation begins the hips and hands cannot move together and you usually cannot be top hand dominant.
Bear with me,
Not being picky here...But do you mean that when your hands are ON plane, the hips and hands DO NOT move together and you take the top hand dominance out of the swing?

Oops wait a minute, I just read your position on hands again, and you said what you meant. I just misread it.

So, let me take another crack:
Hands off plane (which they always are until posture and reversal of elbow positions puts them on plane----down into the path of the ball?) which allows:
Hips and hands to move separately----(sequentially)---- keeping:
The top hand non-dominant.

Is this the arm action detail, subtle but there, as you like to see in a swing?
Or is the arm action, you look for in the swing, as I have attempted to describe in the post with the Pujols clip?

LClifton

[swingbuster]

Is this the arm action detail, subtle but there, as you like to see in a swing?
Or is the arm action, you look for in the swing, as I have attempted to describe in the post with the Pujols clip?

Yes..you described it well. It is shoulder action in some and hand action leading shoulder action in some. As a teach it can be communicated by hand action/ position quicker and undertstood quicker.

I think Pujols has distilled the swing down to all most good things but you have to play Hocus Focus to find them .

He has coil, he has shift, he has rotation, he has posture, he has plane transition, he has some measure of BHUT.

If he stays healthy he could be in the " highest level swing" category in his playing time. Heck...he is amazing now

[LClifton]

Yes..you described it well. It is shoulder action in some and hand action leading shoulder action in some. As a teach it can be communicated by hand action/ position quicker and undertstood quicker.
O.K. this too has probably been covered. With the wrists----the initial hand set you are looking for----they are cupped (cocked) and then as the hand /arm action takes place and the hands rotate to get on plane the wrists flatten (moving the bat tip toward the catcher) and then:
1) Are effectively cocked in a different direction (back toward the catcher)
poised for a final UNCOCK.? Which contributes to good connection.
2) from a "cupped look" to a postion where the wrist is cocked back toward the the forearm...(thumb back toward the forearm, if that makes anymore sense)
3) and this is performed by the movement(s) of hand and arm action?
Not solely, (I think I understood you)but in conjunction with , posture and shoulder movement. Would the external rotation of rear shoulder contribute to the arm action scenario?
Am I mis-stating your view?
I know there are proper terms for the way the wrist moves but I honestly don't know what they are.

LClifton