Barry Bonds

[Sockeye]

Very simple question. Will Barry Bonds make the HOF?

[west coast orange and black]

simply, yes.

[BadKarma]

Another simple Yes here.

[julusnc]

The answer is yes.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when Bonds goes to HOF dinner for just the enshrined players and they all talk about him being elected.

[KCGHOST]

He's a *******, but he's also an HoFer.

[BoSox Rule]

What a question

[west coast orange and black]

julusnc: I would love to be a fly on the wall when Bonds goes to HOF dinner for just the enshrined players and they all talk about him being elected.

save ya the trouble of growing wings and getting all bug-eyed:
they will speak of how much in awe they have been of him. of how much they appreciate his play.

[RuthMayBond]

He's a *******, but he's also an HoFer.I never realized you'd spent actual time with him :rolleyes: :waving

[digglahhh]

Duke Snyder was on the radio today and he spoke about how great of a hitter Bonds is/was and how much he enjoyed watching Bonds hit.

[Taco De Muerte]

It would be the biggest farce in sports history If bonds didn't get inducted into the HOF.

[justice22]

assuming that the investigation discovers that he never did steroids. obviously it will be finished with 5 years of his retirement. i think he did, that's why i voted no.

[west coast orange and black]

julusnc: I would love to be a fly on the wall...

save ya the trouble of growing wings and getting all bug-eyed:
they will speak of how much in awe they have been of him. of how much they appreciate his play...

unless they are hypocrites.

[Sockeye]

It would be the biggest farce in sports history If bonds didn't get inducted into the HOF.

I couldn't agree more

[Sockeye]

Duke Snyder was on the radio today and he spoke about how great of a hitter Bonds is/was and how much he enjoyed watching Bonds hit.

Duke shares my thoughts. We are all better off having seen the true talents of Barry Bonds

[ESPNFan]

Duke shares my thoughts. We are all better off having seen the true talents of Barry Bonds

I agree as well. The true talent of Barry Bonds from 1986 to 1998 was well rounded, impactful and Hall of Fame Worthy. From 1999 to 2006 we have unfortunately seen something that casts that true talent in a very negative light.

[BoofBonser26]

I agree as well. The true talent of Barry Bonds from 1986 to 1998 was well rounded, impactful and Hall of Fame Worthy. From 1999 to 2006 we have unfortunately seen something that casts that true talent in a very negative light.
Which made voting "yes" a stomach-turning experience for me.

[1905 Giants]

Not electing Barry Bonds to the hall of fame would be an insult to the game.

[Sockeye]

Not electing Barry Bonds to the hall of fame would be an insult to the game.

I shoulda saved my couldn't agree more comment until now. He's one of the ten best to ever play the game period!!

[Pghfan987]

Of course the answer is yes, even if you completely disregard his post-1998 years.

I am unsure how to rate his later career. I do not think it is equitable to defenestrate it (a really cool word meaning throw out the window). I am afraid if we do that, then we might have to do the same for the entire era, as it was infested with PEDs. I am inclined to discount his stats, but not eliminate them. I think his records should stand without an official asterisk, but every fan will know that there are certain circumstances behind his stats (the era, not necessarily cheating). He dominated the game for five years; that was truly unique. It was in a different era, but it is not like he was the only one using steroids (assuming he did). Pitchers used as did many of his competitors. And throw in a crucial point that is often overlooked- steroids were not illegal in MLB pre-2003 (to the best of my knowledge), and I find it very difficult to do what most people here want to do- tar and feather Barry and send him on a rail out of town.

[RedSoxVT92]

Personally I would prefer him not to get in, for being a cheater, regardless of being good before steroids. If someone cheats in the game for about 5-6 years they should not get special treatment and have people just ignore the fact that he took steroids. But I think he will end up getting in, although I wont like it....

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I shoulda saved my couldn't agree more comment until now. He's one of the ten best to ever play the game period!!

With a natural decline, not likely.

I answered yes.

[Appling]

Yes -- but not first ballot.

[DTF955]

I agree as well. The true talent of Barry Bonds from 1986 to 1998 was well rounded, impactful and Hall of Fame Worthy. From 1999 to 2006 we have unfortunately seen something that casts that true talent in a very negative light.

Agreed. In fact, though they tend to put only stats on the plaques, I can see some in baseball pushing for some comment such as, "His career from 1999-2006 is clouded by a steroid controversy, but even before 1999 he was considered among the best of his era." The plaque wouldn't say he used them, just trying to downplay those records a little, yet not coming out and saying he was juiced, merely acknowledging the controversy.

Short of an outright ban for life, however, he'd get in. People have been casting write-in votes for Pete Rose even with his lifetime ban, so if Bonds is on the ballot, he's a shoo-in.

[skeletor]

unless there's some sort of backlash against the barry of bonds,
he'll make the hall...myself, i have mixed feelings....

[Goooooo]

Yes. Firstballot. One of the five best ever. And I hate the guy.

[switch_hitter]

Yeah, he is a Hall of Famer, for most all the reasons iterated before. I don't think he's one of the ten best ever to play the game, though.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Even if you don't like him, or disagree with him, you gotta let him in.

[Monzonater]

yes :)
he is one of the greatest

[cavalier1968]

Yes, A hall of famer.....excuse me I just threw up........


Cav

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yes. Firstballot. One of the five best ever. And I hate the guy.

Haven't you made some posts defending steroid use and Bonds?...yet you hate him? Uh huh.

[Appling]

Agreed. In fact, though they tend to put only stats on the plaques, I can see some in baseball pushing for some comment such as, "His career from 1999-2006 is clouded by a steroid controversy, but even before 1999 he was considered among the best of his era."
Couldn't we say almost the same for Joe Jackson? "... but prior to 1919 he was considered among the best of his era".

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yes [Forrest Gump]And that's all I have to say about that [/Gump]

[Williamsburg2599]

Yes [Forrest Gump]And that's all I have to say about that [/Gump]
Please dont use a quote from the greatest movie ever made and use it to talk about Bonds.:laugh :dance

[Captain Cold Nose]

Please dont use a quote from the greatest movie ever made and use it to talk about Bonds.:laugh :dance
He didn't quote Glengarry Glen Ross.

[JohnGelnarFan]

Yes,and my stomach is churning too. I don't want to be too narrow minded so I hope he makes it on the veterans committee vote(last try),then has a smaller plaque put in a very dark corner......in the Cooperstown bathroom. I wouldn't feel this so strongly if he'd been a credit to the game,at least to kids,before he found "The Needle".

[BronxBoy]

I am narrow minded -- I hope the guy never gets in; I do not care about his statistics. He has cast a pall over the game.

[JohnGelnarFan]

and when he retires and says to people,"I'M Barry Bonds",no one will know who that is....





I am narrow minded -- I hope the guy never gets in; I do not care about his statistics. He has cast a pall over the game.

[StresManagement]

The best players of this and every other era will get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Bonds is one of those players and he should and will get in.

[JohnGelnarFan]

Welcome Stres. You got in on a very popular subject. Have Fun! :waving




The best players of this and every other era will get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Bonds is one of those players and he should and will get in.

[west coast orange and black]

ESPNFan: From 1999 to 2006 we have unfortunately seen something that casts that true talent in a very negative light.

1. apparently you did not pay too much attention to the other 1,000+ players.

2. is your inclusion of 2006 as part of steroid era about specifically bonds, or all of baseball?
if just bonds, why?
if all of baseball, congrats for watching all of baseball, not just bonds ab.

[digglahhh]

He didn't quote Glengarry Glen Ross.

Well he's going to go and to those who don't want him there, "What are you gonna do about it, [jerk]..."

[Fireballer]

he is going to get in but not first ballot i say a couple of years after he is nominated like 5

[TonyK]

If he does not make get in it will be because the Commissioners Office rules against his eligibility when Sen. Mitchell's investigation finishes. That is difficult to predict at this moment, but won't be in another year.

[wamby]

He didn't quote Glengarry Glen Ross.

Or Chinatown. If you can't see me as thinking Barry Bonds doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, then you're dumber than you think I think you are.

[thecoach]

Barry Bonds is nearing the end of a very long career. Now, I know all the talk about Steroids, and that he has done this and that, but as far as I know no one has proven he has done anything wrong except being a jerk, and a very talented player? Given what we know to be fact does he make the Hall?

[runningshoes]

With the moral climate being what it is?

Yes, unfortunately, he will.

Given what you know and given what you're willing to accept are two different things.

[538280]

It very well might be the biggest travesty in the history of professional sports if he doesnt make it in. Should be first ballot with 100% of the vote.

[thecoach]

With the moral climate being what it is?

Yes, unfortunately, he will.

Given what you know and given what you're willing to accept are two different things.

But if you where being judged in a court of law would you not want to be judged on facts only, and not what someone is willing to accept?

I would!

[runningshoes]

But if you where being judged in a court of law would you not want to be judged on facts only, and not what someone is willing to accept?

I would!

And what is the fact; he didn't test positive?

[thecoach]

It very well might be the biggest travesty in the history of professional sports if he doesnt make it in. Should be first ballot with 100% of the vote.

I agree with you young man, but I fear that you will be given a lessen in human nature. I do not believe he will get in with 100% of the vote!

[thecoach]

And what is the fact; he didn't test positive?

What is fact is what you can prove! In this case that he has not tested positive, and therefore no one can say without any reservation that he has used them.

[Taco De Muerte]

What is fact is what you can prove! In this case that he has not tested positive, and therefore no one can say without any reservation that he has used them.

Although I am No Bonds basher or baseball purist by anymeans, That really doesn't tell us anything. Although many have said undetectable steroids aren't as good as " regular " gear, it's still good stuff, and is of course used to beat testing.

With that said, the man should and will get into the HOF.

[538280]

I agree with you young man, but I fear that you will be given a lessen in human nature. I do not believe he will get in with 100% of the vote!

Neither do I. I'm just saying that I think he should get 100% of the vote

[thecoach]

Although I am No Bonds basher or baseball purist by anymeans, That really doesn't tell us anything. Although many have said undetectable steroids aren't as good as " regular " gear, it's still good stuff, and is of course used to beat testing.

With that said, the man should and will get into the HOF.

I agree, but until you know something to be fact do you want that used to judge someone or have someone judge you. It is possible that Bonds used Steroids or still does for that matter, but I do not know that to be a fact. Therefore I can not use that possibility to judge him. You may be a killer but I can't send you to jail unless I know that to be a fact. That has always been the system we live under, and until this Bonds case came up most people judged on facts. Now we see people judge on what the think or want to think!

[runningshoes]

What is fact is what you can prove! In this case that he has not tested positive, and therefore no one can say without any reservation that he has used them.

He used them (absolutley no reservation, hesitation or any kind of ation for that matter in my thought process or denial response.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

It very well might be the biggest travesty in the history of professional sports if he doesnt make it in.

Did you go to the Bill Walton School of Exaggeration?

It wouldn't be the biggest travesty. It would be the second biggest "being made an example of," next to Pete Rose. Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit and his example is out there for all to see. You can say that Bonds was a hall of famer before he allegedly started using (as if we really know how early it goes back), but some may believe that once you cross the line, no matter how late in your career, it should be punished. Would it be fair to make an example out of him just because he destroyed the record book as we knew it. Probably not. I think he'll get in based on the thought that he was a HOFer before, but we should all keep in mind what his career totals really mean.

[runningshoes]

Neither do I. I'm just saying that I think he should get 100% of the vote

And if we get a bunch of morally devoid writers to to do the voting, I'm sure he will.

[Taco De Muerte]

I agree, but until you know something to be fact do you want that used to judge someone or have someone judge you. It is possible that Bonds used Steroids or still does for that matter, but I do not know that to be a fact. Therefore I can not use that possibility to judge him. You may be a killer but I can't send you to jail unless I know that to be a fact. That has always been the system we live under, and until this Bonds case came up most people judged on facts. Now we see people judge on what the think or want to think!

Fair enough, but I was pointing out that the positive test arguement isn't a good arguement given the fact that he was allegedly using undetectable drugs.

[Taco De Muerte]

It wouldn't be the biggest travesty. It would be the second biggest "being made an example of," next to Pete Rose. Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit and his example is out there for all to see. You can say that Bonds was a hall of famer before he allegedly started using (as if we really know how early it goes back), but some may believe that once you cross the line, no matter how late in your career, it should be punished. Would it be fair to make an example out of him just because he destroyed the record book as we knew it. Probably not. I think he'll get in based on the thought that he was a HOFer before, but we should all keep in mind what his career totals really mean.

What a surprise, a thread about bonds, and sultan is here to bash him. And in other news, the earth is round.

On top of that, he comes to the defense of pete rose, a guy who besides Shoeless joe and his crew, cheated in the worst way possible. And I'm not even taking about his alleged use of amphetamines, and corkedbats, or some of his closest friends and son getting arrested for selling illegal steroids.

[Bench 5]

Either all steroid guys are kept out or else they go in based upon merit. I think most people assume he was off the juice prior to 1999 so it's hard to argue against his career up to that point. But I wouldn't mind seeing him wait a couple years on the ballot before election.

[rockin500]

he still belongs in regardless. based on everything i know (and anyone else knows ) he belongs in

[runningshoes]

What a surprise, a thread about bonds, and sultan is here to bash him. And in other news, the earth is round.

On top of that, he comes to the defense of pete rose, a guy who besides Shoeless joe and his crew, cheated in the worst way possible. And I'm not even taking about his alleged use of amphetamines, and corkedbats, or some of his closest friends and son getting arrested for selling illegal steroids.

Where does he come to the defense of Pete Rose?

I think you need to go back and re-read his post. He's drawing a comparison between the numbers they both put up and how they got them.

[Taco De Muerte]

Where does he come to the defense of Pete Rose?

I think you need to go back and re-read his post.

Where ?

Well, It seems like it with this post - It would be the second biggest "being made an example of," next to Pete Rose. Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit and his example is out there for all to see.

Who knows, maybe it isn't, maybe Im reading it wrong. However, I find it funny that you purists are constantly criticizing us " Bonds apologists " ( If a group like that, really exists) for comparing Bonds current situation with other cheats in the HOF like Roger Hornsby or Gaylord Perry, but then are constantly bringing up Pete Rose and his situation, and comparing it to Bonds current situation ( as if the two, are even remotely comparable anyway).

It Just seems hypocritical to me, but then again, maybe I have my " Bonds blinders " on, and I'm missing something here.

[thecoach]

He used them (absolutley no reservation, hesitation or any kind of ation for that matter in my thought process or denial response.

And my friend, we live in America, and are free to think whatever we want, but thinking it does not make it fact! I to believe he has taken something, but until it is proven he has taken steroids he would get my vote!

Sidebar: Gaylord Perry used the spitball. That is cheating! Do you believe the Hall needs to take action?

[runningshoes]

Where ?

Well, It seems like it with this post - It would be the second biggest "being made an example of," next to Pete Rose. Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit and his example is out there for all to see.

Who knows, maybe it isn't, maybe Im reading it wrong. However, I find it funny that you purists are constantly criticizing us " Bonds apologists " ( If a group like that, really exists) for comparing Bonds current situation with other cheats in the HOF like Roger Hornsby or Gaylord Perry, but then are constantly bringing up Pete Rose and his situation, and comparing it to Bonds current situation ( as if the two, are even remotely comparable anyway).

It Just seems hypocritical to me, but then again, maybe I have my " Bonds blinders " on, and I'm missing something here.

I don't think you're an apologist, I just have a problem with his supporters thinking what he did is no big deal.

I don't bring up or defend Horsby or Perry because they are dead horses while this one still has a pulse.

[runningshoes]

And my friend, we live in America, and are free to think whatever we want, but thinking it does not make it fact! I to believe he has taken something, but until it is proven he has taken steroids he would get my vote!

Sidebar: Gaylord Perry used the spitball. That is cheating! Do you believe the Hall needs to take action?

I'm sorry but I don't see things so black or white.

God gave me this brain to draw my own conclusion as I'm sure he did for you, but at the end of the day, I don't let legal principles dictate what I'm willing to live with or what I'm willing to accept.

[thecoach]

Did you go to the Bill Walton School of Exaggeration?

It wouldn't be the biggest travesty. It would be the second biggest "being made an example of," next to Pete Rose. Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit and his example is out there for all to see. You can say that Bonds was a hall of famer before he allegedly started using (as if we really know how early it goes back), but some may believe that once you cross the line, no matter how late in your career, it should be punished. Would it be fair to make an example out of him just because he destroyed the record book as we knew it. Probably not. I think he'll get in based on the thought that he was a HOFer before, but we should all keep in mind what his career totals really mean.

Most of what you say I totally agree with and Rose belongs in the Hall. But when you say "Here's a guy who's actual playing numbers are legit" I am assuming you are saying he was Steroid free. How do you know that? Don't get me wrong he is a Hall of Famer in my book but we can not just assume anything unless we know for sure.

[thecoach]

Either all steroid guys are kept out or else they go in based upon merit. I think most people assume he was off the juice prior to 1999 so it's hard to argue against his career up to that point. But I wouldn't mind seeing him wait a couple years on the ballot before election.

I totally agree, and I feel hundreds of players used them in the 1980's and 1990's and still are. But they must be caught, and proven to have used them! When all are treated fairly then I say keep them out. But till then the Hall is open.

[thecoach]

he still belongs in regardless. based on everything i know (and anyone else knows ) he belongs in

Total agreement! :clapping :clapping :clapping

[thecoach]

I'm sorry but I don't see things so black or white.

God gave me this brain to draw my own conclusion as I'm sure he did for you, but at the end of the day, I don't let legal principles dictate what I'm willing to live with or what I'm willing to accept.

No I am sure you answer to a higher authority. Judge not...

[runningshoes]

No I am sure you answer to a higher authority. Judge not...

This has less to do with God and more to do with my ability to reason.

I give credit to Him for giving me that ability but that's as far it goes because I believe He gave everyone that ability whether they believe He did or not.

[thecoach]

This has less to do with God and more to do with my ability to reason.

I give credit to Him for giving me that ability but that's as far it goes because I believe He gave everyone that ability whether they believe He did or not.

I give God credit, and I try to follow his teaching. And, I was not kidding: Judge not less ye be Judged

[Fuzzy Bear]

Absent some later revelation that would lead to a suspension from baseball, Barry Bonds will make the HOF.

[thecoach]

Absent some later revelation that would lead to a suspension from baseball, Barry Bonds will make the HOF.

We are in complete agreement-!! :clapping :dance

[RedSoxVT92]

Sadley he will...

I for one think he shouldnt get in and even though there is no "proof" I think that a middle aged mans head growing sizes larger, putting up video game stats starting at 35, having your trainer be involved in balco, etc, is quite suspisious ey? But sadly everyone who played in the 90's and 00's will be up for suspison. And he did put up very good stats before 1998 but that does not excuse the fact that he probably used steroids and cheated(thats an unproven fact :rolleyes: ) But based on known fact he will get in, but based on common sense he shouldnt IMO.

[thecoach]

Sadley he will...

I for one think he shouldnt get in and even though there is no "proof" I think that a middle aged mans head growing sizes larger, putting up video game stats starting at 35, having your trainer be involved in balco, etc, is quite suspisious ey? But sadly everyone who played in the 90's and 00's will be up for suspison. And he did put up very good stats before 1998 but that does not excuse the fact that he probably used steroids and cheated(thats an unproven fact :rolleyes:) But based on known fact he will get in, but based on common sense he shouldnt IMO.


But the question was known fact, and you answered, based on that he will get in. If all cheaters were taken out of the Hall it would have very few members! It would however, be a better place in my opinion! ;)

[flash143817]

Of course he will get in. He is the best player of the last 25 years. But he won't be unanimous because of holier than thou sportswriters.


And it is certainly possible that Bonds was juicing, but I hope that the same people accusing him of it are not naive enough to think that the pitchers he was hitting off of weren't using as well. For this reason that he was likely hitting off of juicing pitchers, I don't punish him for his alleged use.

[thecoach]

Of course he will get in. He is the best player of the last 25 years. But he won't be unanimous because of holier than thou sportswriters.


And it is certainly possible that Bonds was juicing, but I hope that the same people accusing him of it are not naive enough to think that the pitchers he was hitting off of weren't using as well. For this reason that he was likely hitting off of juicing pitchers, I don't punish him for his alleged use.

I agree with all that you say. Very well stated!:clapping :clapping

[Sultan_1895-1948]

What a surprise, a thread about bonds, and sultan is here to bash him. And in other news, the earth is round.

On top of that, he comes to the defense of pete rose, a guy who besides Shoeless joe and his crew, cheated in the worst way possible. And I'm not even taking about his alleged use of amphetamines, and corkedbats, or some of his closest friends and son getting arrested for selling illegal steroids.

You read what I wrote and that's what you got out of it?

1. I did not "bash" Bonds.

2. I did not "defend" Rose's gambling.

Are you able to read anything with an open mind and actually try to comprehend the actual ideas being expressed? So quick to throw a label on someone and attack. You make this website a better place Taco. Keep chirping away.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Of course he will get in. He is the best player of the last 25 years. But he won't be unanimous because of holier than thou sportswriters.


And it is certainly possible that Bonds was juicing, but I hope that the same people accusing him of it are not naive enough to think that the pitchers he was hitting off of weren't using as well. For this reason that he was likely hitting off of juicing pitchers, I don't punish him for his alleged use.

No doubt tons of pitchers were using. Given this, the question becomes, do you end it right there and call it a draw; or do you delve deeper and acknowledge that it can and does (imo) aid hitters to a far greater degree, especially when this era is already so heavily geared for offenses to thrive.

On the surface, I think a user is a user, but I also choose to look beyond that for further study. Are there other hitters who used steroids? Sure there are. So why was Bonds able to do what he did, aside from already being one of the most talented players to ever play the game...goes back to the elevator theory, which he completely turned upside down and then some.

So are there other cheaters in the HOF? Sure there are. Is cheating cheating, or are there different levels of cheating that have various impacts? Is corking a bat equal to purposely altering your chemical makeup in order to gain an edge over your peers? Perhaps to some, perhaps not to others.

[flash143817]

No doubt tons of pitchers were using. Given this, the question becomes, do you end it right there and call it a draw; or do you delve deeper and acknowledge that it can and does (imo) aid hitters to a far greater degree, especially when this era is already so heavily geared for offenses to thrive.

On the surface, I think a user is a user, but I also choose to look beyond that for further study. Are there other hitters who used steroids? Sure there are. So why was Bonds able to do what he did, aside from already being one of the most talented players to ever play the game...goes back to the elevator theory, which he completely turned upside down and then some.

So are there other cheaters in the HOF? Sure there are. Is cheating cheating, or are there different levels of cheating that have various impacts? Is corking a bat equal to purposely altering your chemical makeup in order to gain an edge over your peers? Perhaps to some, perhaps not to others.

I call it a draw. Just because the results might be greater for some players than others doesn't change that the intent was the same for all of them.

And I'm not necessarily convinced that steroids aid hitters more than pitchers. It definitely could add at least 5 MPH to a fastball, which can definitely be significant. Big difference between 90 and 95. I just reference Eric Gagne for that. He went from throwing 92-95 to throwing 98-100 in one season and became possibly the most dominating closer ever prior to injuries.

[baseball=my life]

He isnt the most humble guy around.:laugh :laugh Even If Barry did take steroids, he still would be raw without them.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I call it a draw. Just because the results might be greater for some players than others doesn't change that the intent was the same for all of them.

And I'm not necessarily convinced that steroids aid hitters more than pitchers. It definitely could add at least 5 MPH to a fastball, which can definitely be significant. Big difference between 90 and 95. I just reference Eric Gagne for that. He went from throwing 92-95 to throwing 98-100 in one season and became possibly the most dominating closer ever prior to injuries.

5 mph might not be a typical gain, but I understand what you're saying. Adding a little more pep can increase your margin of error for success if you miss your spot, but in general, velocity takes a back seat to command in terms of success imo. I think Gagne's dominance had as much to do with him mastering his changep as anything else. Also his gains seem huge, but remember you're comparing his starting pitcher velocity to closer velocity. Not a fair comparison considering starters pace themselves and hold back for the long haul. As a closer he was able to let loose for one inning. So the "fishy" gain was still there, but I think it was only around 3 or 4 mph.

[flash143817]

5 mph might not be a typical gain, but I understand what you're saying. Adding a little more pep can increase your margin of error for success if you miss your spot, but in general, velocity takes a back seat to command in terms of success imo. I think Gagne's dominance had as much to do with him mastering his changep as anything else. Also his gains seem huge, but remember you're comparing his starting pitcher velocity to closer velocity. Not a fair comparison considering starters pace themselves and hold back for the long haul. As a closer he was able to let loose for one inning. So the "fishy" gain was still there, but I think it was only around 3 or 4 mph.

He was occasionally even clocked at 100 and 101 a few times. It was definitely a significant gain for him. I'd love to think it was the starter/reliever thing but I really don't know. Those gains combined with his injury history makes it seem pretty likely IMO, which is a shame because watching closer Gagne pitch is amazing. The electricity in the air when he enters the game is incredible.

[ChiddixBB12]

I think i read somewhere that Barry Bonds has never tested positive in a drug test! I think he needs a little more respect

[SamtheBravesFan]

He tested positive for amphetimines last season, I think, but that hasn't gotten any legs, which probably means that people view speed as small potatoes.

Be that as it may, I'd still vote in Bonds for the Hall of Fame if I had a vote.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The best players of this and every other era will get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Bonds is one of those players and he should and will get in.

This is clearly true.

I don't believe in denying players the HOF just because they used steroids. This is historically dishonest. I believe that steroid use was widespread to the point to where it was a condition of the time, just like greenies in the seventies, or the war in the forties. I think this calls for an adjustment as to how we look at the stats from this recent era, but there is no question that Barry Bonds was the greatest player of his generation.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I will PRAY he doesn't get in...

Or, if he doesn't get in, put in Pete Rose first....

[Fuzzy Bear]

Or, if he doesn't get in, put in Pete Rose first....


No, no, a thousand times, no!

[Skin & Bones]

No, no, a thousand times, no!

I agree. It's laughable how Rose fans now use Barry Bonds as the reason why Rose belongs in the HOF. For many years it was Ty Cobb's racism, or Gaylord Perry's spitballs, now it's Bonds steroids.

The funny thing is, Rose will never get into the HOF, and that's how it should and will always be.

[Erik Bedard]

Exactly. Rose broke the one rule that results in lifetime banishment every time, on a first offense. Bonds (probably) broke the one that gets you suspended for 50 games. Perry broke the one that gets you kicked out of one game. Cobb didn't break one at all.

As to the poll, I voted yes, because although I wish we could wipe out everything he did from '99-present, he was a HoFer prior to it. Possibly one of the top ten ever, and if he's clean since '99 (highly unlikely), he's the best ever.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

You people upset me so much.

Rose should be banned as a manager, while on the playing field, he's one of the greatest of all time. He did not cheat, while Bonds did cheat. He broke the rules just like Rose did, and I will be sick to my stomach if Bonds makes the hall before Rose, and sickens me more that you support that a-hole for the HOF.

[Erik Bedard]

You can't be banned from managing in baseball. You can only be banned from the sport altogether. Therefore, Rose can't get in the HoF. Bonds has broken rules as well, but BONDS DID NOT BREAK THE ONE RULE THAT GETS YOU A LIFETIME BAN EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Bonds deserves it if he didn't cheat, but he did cheat, and this is why I don't rank him. I know he must banned from the sport all together, but he broke the sport as a manager, but not as a player. Rose should, be in the HOF. Bonds should not.

[philipthegreat]

despite it being it popular by sportswriters and fans to discard his statistics he is a hall of hamer no matter how much I hate him. Or anyone else.

[Skin & Bones]

[QUOTE=Lin_Kuei_Fighter;947084]Bonds deserves it if he didn't cheat, but he did cheat, and this is why I don't rank him. I know he must banned from the sport all together, but he broke the sport as a manager, but not as a player. Rose should, be in the HOF. Bonds should not.[/QUOTEF

For what it's worth, Rose did cheat as a player. Of course, that isn't the reason he's banned, because no type of cheating sans Gambling actually slaughters the integrity of the game.

But keep on supporting him, he has very few supporters afterall.

[Dalkowski110]

I hate his guts, he's a roided out prima donna to the umpteenth level, but his pre-roid years from 1986-2000 made him the best player in baseball during that period.

[J-MAC]

Yes i think he will. Scandal or not he has diffiantly shown he is a HOF player.

[fenrir]

the only two roiders that id vote for are bonds and clemens. both had hof careers before their skulls grew. the rest can rot in hell for all i care.

[steamboat26]

Yes, but with a giant asterisk for obvious steroid/human growth hormone use. Just my beliefs, please don't flame me

[cup2006sensrule]

Bonds is one away from tying Ty Cobb for the most times on base in a career.

Rose 5929
Cobb 5532
Bonds 5531

That is another impressive accomplishment for Bonds.

[BlueBlood]

I had to say "yes"...the way some writers (or ESPN sportscasters) seem to be in awe of the guy despite his highly probable steroid use means that he's going to get in at some point if not on the first ballot. Ain't that a shame. :shrug:

[Dogdaze]

Yes, but with a giant asterisk for obvious steroid/human growth hormone use. Just my beliefs, please don't flame me


:laugh :laugh :laugh

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think Bonds should, and will, go into the HOF.

That Bonds goes into the HOF doesn't mean that his place in baseball history is entirely settled, but it is clear, beyond doubt, that he meets the standards for the HOF.

[brenrich]

Yes, but I think Pete Rose should be in also. The HOF should be about the truth. The fact that great baseball players make mistakes should be shared with the history of the game.

[Brad Harris]

Yes, but I think Pete Rose should be in also. The HOF should be about the truth. The fact that great baseball players make mistakes should be shared with the history of the game.

And that truth has been shared far more by keeping Rose out of the Hall than it would have been had he been inducted in 1991.

[ColbyPants]

Very simple question. Will Barry Bonds make the HOF?

There really is no argument in my mind. Yup.

[downstairs]

I believe they polled a bunch of baseball writers as to whether they would vote in Pete Rose if his ban was lifted today (whenever today was- I think a few years ago). There were clearly not enough votes for him to get it.

But his numbers are absolutely first-ballot.

This is why I think he will not.

You asked "will he" not not "should he", so I'll refrain from giving my reasons why he should not be allowed to tarnish another great part of our sport.

Now that he's got his record, can he just retire already and languish in prison?

[pinkgoat_13]

When Barry Bonds officially retires, should he be inducted into the HOF?

Of course like always lets look at his numbers

Barry Bonds
HR: 762
RBI: 1996
BB: 2558
H: 2935
AVG: .298
SLG: .607
SB: 514

Anyone with these numbers should of course be in the HOF. Well lets also look at his stats from earlier in his career. From the years 1986-2000 he did not have one single season with 50+ homeruns, 130+ rbi's, or .700+ slugging percentage. Then in the 2001 season he hit 73 homeruns, 137 rbi's, and a .863 slugging percentage.

What would do something like this. In 2001 he was 37 years old. When you reach that age, most players do not see a huge increase in production. Yet he did very much so. Theres only one reason that this can be explained. And that is steriods. Barry wanted to improved his game, which previously was a very good career before 2001.

Before the 2001 season he had 494 homeruns, 1405 rbi's, .288 avg, 2157 hits. These are HOF numbers. Why take steriods and ruin your image, your legacy, and your name. There was no reason to take steriods. IN ANY CASE! Bonds has always denied his use of steriods. He should step up and be a man and admit he did do it.

But if i could vote for the HOF'ers, i personally would not vote for bonds

[Seattle1]

But if i could vote for the HOF'ers, i personally would not vote for bonds

Me neither!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I vote yes.

[KCGHOST]

Right now I probably would vote him. I really don't like the idea of the all-time HR leader not being in the HoF. It's bad enough the all-time hit leader is not there. And if you whack Bonds you are almost morally bound to keep Clemens out. Then you will have a Top Five pitcher not in the HoF.

[Brad Harris]

Again...how on earth does a player not admitting to wrongdoing somehow justify being harder on him? What kind of reasoning do you people have if you expect us to believe voters would go easier on a guy who just confessed?

Bonds is an all-time great player, like him or not, with or without the steroids. As such, he should be elected to the Hall of Fame.

[whoisonit]

No to Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Palmiro & Sosa. Of course, I don't have a vote so it doesn't matter.

[Afterglow]

I'd say yes to Bonds.

I wouldn't let him in on the first ballot.

But yea, it will be hard to keep him out of it.

The dude was amazing, even before he became the Terminator.

But then again, nothing surprises me.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line, someone claims they have evidence that he started using something before the 1990 seson.

If he was young and improved like he did 1990 in 2008. He would be a suspect.

[White Knight]

If he makes it, will other alleged PED users make it? McGwire? Palmero? Sosa (least proof of a PED user of the bunch)? Granted, Bonds is far and away the best of the bunch, but the others I mentioned easily have HOF numbers.

[jalbright]

Bonds is unique among those commonly accused in that he had a HOF-caliber career before he began using PEDs (and look at his body before 1997-8 if you think he juiced before that)--the others were at best borderline before that 1997-8 time, then suddenly began to look like HOFers as their heads and muscles all grew in ways that aren't common absent pharmaceuticals.

[AstrosFan]

Clemens was a legit HOFer before he began using, which was in mid-1998, according to the Mitchell Report.

[jalbright]

Clemens was a legit HOFer before he began using, which was in mid-1998, according to the Mitchell Report.

I still haven't gotten used to putting pitchers in the juicer crowd, but you are right about Roger as well.

[six4three]

If he makes it, will other alleged PED users make it? McGwire? Palmero? Sosa (least proof of a PED user of the bunch)? Granted, Bonds is far and away the best of the bunch, but the others I mentioned easily have HOF numbers.

I think it's clear that McGwire has an uphill fight to get in. Palmero also seems like a long shot.

I don't think Bonds will get in, and personally I don't think he should get in. Ironic, because he certainly had a Hall of Fame career before he started juicing.

[White Knight]

I think it's clear that McGwire has an uphill fight to get in. Palmero also seems like a long shot.

I don't think Bonds will get in, and personally I don't think he should get in. Ironic, because he certainly had a Hall of Fame career before he started juicing.
So why shouldn't he go in if he had a HOF career before PED use? Also, do you think Sosa will go in, if nothing comes up on him (like future Mitchell Reports) in the next five years?

[abolishthedh]

So why shouldn't he go in if he had a HOF career before PED use?

The quick and simple answer is that the Hall represents the collection of role models from the game of baseball, as the concept of role model evolves over time. In other words, cheaters are not role models to our country's youth.

This is what the Hall represents, whether we like that or not. A separate question would be whether the Hall means what we think it means to our youth. So,

I believe Bonds shouldn't go in.

But as the poll is presented, I vote yes. (Gagg, cough, cough) I also believe that Sosa will get in eventually. Our society's mores are changing.:disbelief:

Its a shame Barry and I couldn't have a brief talk. I have his father's autograph from 1973, obtained in a Pittsburgh hotel while the Giants were in town playing the Pirates. Bobby Bonds' autograph is one of my cherished childhood mementos, and he signed the paper with big beautiful swirls. I wouldn't cross the room to get Barry's, and if he handed me his autograph, I would wad up the paper and throw it away.

[west coast orange and black]

white knight: If he makes it, will other alleged PED users make it?

will alleged users make it?
white knight, users of substances have already gained entrance.

maybe it goes to who is doing the alleging.

[SamtheBravesFan]

The quick and simple answer is that the Hall represents the collection of role models from the game of baseball, as the concept of role model evolves over time. In other words, cheaters are not role models to our country's youth.

Hall of Famers are not and never have been put up to be role models for our country's children. If they're looking at baseball for a role model, there's something wrong.

[west coast orange and black]

^^
:applaud:

[SamtheBravesFan]

^^
:applaud:

Thanks. I guess that's more true now, since PED use appears to be so pervasive. If a child looks up to a great baseball player and then finds out he takes PEDs, it's either going to be such a shock that he's turned off from the player or baseball, or he's going to follow his example. That's why it's not such a good idea to look at sports athletes as a role model because we only know half of their lives: what we see on TV and newspapers. If it comes out that he's not such a good role model... what then?

[White Knight]

The quick and simple answer is that the Hall represents the collection of role models from the game of baseball, as the concept of role model evolves over time. In other words, cheaters are not role models to our country's youth.

This is what the Hall represents, whether we like that or not. A separate question would be whether the Hall means what we think it means to our youth. So,

I believe Bonds shouldn't go in.

But as the poll is presented, I vote yes. (Gagg, cough, cough) I also believe that Sosa will get in eventually. Our society's mores are changing.:disbelief:

Its a shame Barry and I couldn't have a brief talk. I have his father's autograph from 1973, obtained in a Pittsburgh hotel while the Giants were in town playing the Pirates. Bobby Bonds' autograph is one of my cherished childhood mementos, and he signed the paper with big beautiful swirls. I wouldn't cross the room to get Barry's, and if he handed me his autograph, I would wad up the paper and throw it away.


The Hall was built for great players, I don't believe it ever had any intention of being a role model club. There are certainly more than a few people in there who are/were people with bad attitudes.

As for cheating, it's a matter of opinion. I don't, nor will I ever view PED's as cheating. Not anymore than a healthy diet and working out.

[White Knight]

white knight: If he makes it, will other alleged PED users make it?

will alleged users make it?
white knight, users of substances have already gained entrance.

maybe it goes to who is doing the alleging.

So why isn't McGwire in?

[SamtheBravesFan]

So why isn't McGwire in?

I think he means people like Mickey Mantle, who most likely (not Mantle, just players in his era in general) took speed.

[abolishthedh]

The Hall was built for great players, I don't believe it ever had any intention of being a role model club.

That is where we disagree. I knew my grandparents and my parents' generations well, and I believe strongly that the main and possibly only reason they established the Hall was to set up athletes as role models. In the 1930s, with the Great Depression and widespread poverty by today's standards, the media and MLB wouldn't bother with the Hall for their own sake of reminiscing, as we assume today. The Hall was indeed set up to tell the youth of the country which athletes were deserving of admiration, and to tell book publishers who to research for biographies.

This, remember, was WAY before subsequent biographies revealed the shortcomings of early groups of players into the Hall.

The people of the 1930s were an amazingly self-less lot, and it showed in the conversations they had with their grandkids (myself).

[Cowtipper]

Is he still looking for work? Or is he done?

[MyDogSparty]

Duke shares my thoughts. We are all better off having seen the true talents of Barry Bonds

TRUE talent?:laugh I would have loved to have seen that for the entirety of his career.

[twinkies]

if theres a hof for most juiced hed get in for sure

no not to the real 1

[EricAnno]

if theres a hof for most juiced hed get in for sure

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Gee, that's a good one. I've never heard that before.

no not to the real 1

He should. And if the writers get their heads out of their asses, he will be. Regardless of the steroids controversy, he's probably the greatest all-around player ever and probably the third or second greatest hitter ever.

[White Knight]

if theres a hof for most juiced hed get in for sure

no not to the real 1

Why not? Even on juice, could any current player produce with equal or superior numbers than his 2001-2004, starting at age 37-40? Pujols roided out to the max probably couldn't do it, and he's only 30 or so.

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

Hall of Famers are not and never have been put up to be role models for our country's children. If they're looking at baseball for a role model, there's something wrong.

Kids do look up to these guys. Not because their parents are making them do so - kids want to be Barry Bonds. They want to be A-Rod. They want to be Lebron James. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It is a perfectly natural thing for kids to want to emulate the heroes they watch on TV and at the games.

Should they look up to these guys? No. But they do.

[Captain Cold Nose]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Gee, that's a good one. I've never heard that before.



He should. And if the writers get their heads out of their asses, he will be. Regardless of the steroids controversy, he's probably the greatest all-around player ever and probably the third or second greatest hitter ever.

Please. Don't push it with twinkies.

[six4three]

Why not? Even on juice, could any current player produce with equal or superior numbers than his 2001-2004, starting at age 37-40? Pujols roided out to the max probably couldn't do it, and he's only 30 or so.

That's what's so pathetic about the whole Bonds saga - he was one of the greatest natural players ever. He didn't need drugs to make the Hall of Fame, but they will almost certainly keep him out, no matter what we think of it.