MLB's report card

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Any thoughts?


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2415806

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The percentage of black pitchers in the major leagues last year was half of what it was in 1983.

The University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics said Thursday that 3 percent of pitchers, 1 percent of catchers and 11 percent of infielders last year were black, based on 40-man rosters listed in 2005 media guides. That compares with 26 percent of outfielders.

In 1983, 6.6 percent of pitchers were black, the study said.

The institute issues regular report cards for college and professional sports to evaluate hiring and on-field opportunities for women and racial minorities.

Major League Baseball received an overall C-plus in gender and racial diversity on and off the field -- the same grade it received last year. The sport's B-plus for racial diversity was slightly higher than the previous year, while baseball fell from a C to a D-plus for gender diversity.

Twelve percent of VPs in the 2005 season were minorities, while 12 percent were women, the study said. The Red Sox, Dodgers and Arizona Diamondbacks were the only teams with more than one minority vice president.

[Joltin' Joe]

I don't know how MLB can be criticized for the low percentage of women executives. MLB is a totally male dominated organization.

[west coast orange and black]

more than 40% of all fans in the stands are female.
their money has been cheerfully collected, but they have been largley ignored elsewhere.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

more than 40% of all fans in the stands are female.
their money has been cheerfully collected, but they have been largley ignored elsewhere.

So then are there qualified women out there who just aren't given a chance, or do they just lack what is required knowledge wise?

Do you think the home-life expectations of a female come into play, when talking about how much time they put in at the office? Would employers shy away from them because they have home/kid/husband obligations? I'd be interested to see how many of the current females at high positions are married or have kids.

[Joltin' Joe]

more than 40% of all fans in the stands are female.
their money has been cheerfully collected, but they have been largley ignored elsewhere.

Yes but the fact remains that the people that are in baseball are predominantly(and by a huge margin) male.

Also those 40%+(your figure) fans are coming to see the players play the game. That is the final product that they are "buying". I'm sure they couldn't care less about the gender of the executives.

[west coast orange and black]

there are plenty of qualified men out there who just aren't given a chance, so what would that say about women? :eek:

re home-life expectations of women: many are practically forced to hide simple facts such as children at home, wanting to have children, etc, because otherwise they might not get hired or be promoted.

I'd be interested to see how many of the current females at high positions are married or have kids.

this is exactly part of what is held against them, sultan.

[west coast orange and black]

joltin' joe, the fact that the people who operate baseball are predominantly(and by a huge margin) male is not the question. the kernel is why.

why is it predominantly men? nearly exclusively men?

women are cops, firefighters, political campaign managers, math teachers, you name it.

(the 40%+ figure is mlb's own. i merely repeated it.)

. . . . . . . . .

"i'm sure they couldn't care less about the gender of the executives."
uh-huh. certainly. just as they could not care less about the sexuality of same.
i ain't buyin'.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

re home-life expectations of women: many are practically forced to hide simple facts such as children at home, wanting to have children, etc, because otherwise they might not get hired or be promoted.

That's kinda what I figured. It's gotta play a part. You don't want one of your most important employees taking time off because they have morning sickness, or they're tired from staying up with little Johnny all night, or a PTA meeting, or a soccer practice, etc...

Gotta say, I knew the numbers of blacks was low, but that is just deplorable. And some people think the NBA, NFL, rap and entertainment, or just environment in general, doesn't have an influence on the numbers :rolleyes:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

uh-huh. certainly. just as they could not care less about the sexuality of same.
i ain't buyin'.

You honestly think fans care who is employed by teams? Even if it was the GM, I think it'd be refreshing to have a woman doing radio and TV interviews and being sort of a public figure. Granted, if she's attractive, she'll have a tougher road to hoe towards proving her value, but generally speaking most women high very high positions aren't attractive anyway. At least that's been my experience.

Personally though, I don't care if the owner of the Angels is purple or green, woman or man, as long as they keep Vladdy Daddy happy :D

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: You honestly think fans care who is employed by teams?
absolutley. the giants brass believes so, as well. which is why they hire the number of minorities - people of color, women, physically challenged, mentally challenged, etc, that they do.

i recently heard giants coo larry baer speak on this exact topic.



I think it'd be refreshing to have a woman doing radio and TV interviews and being sort of a public figure.
well, the giants hired the first female public adress announcer in the bigs.
when the giants moved to the new digs, she was replaced...
by a woman... who happens to be a very popular morning radio deejay.

[Joltin' Joe]

joltin' joe, the fact that the people who operate baseball are predominantly(and by a huge margin) male is not the question. the kernel is why.


There is a very good reason why. How many women player are there in the ML?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Joltin's got a point WC. If this were the league of brownie baking, how many male executives would you expect to have. Better yet, who would really care how many there were? I think the people who might get miffed about an issue like this, are extremists who just search for something to get mad about. Just for a "cause."

[west coast orange and black]

How many women player are there in the ML?
that's academic.

[west coast orange and black]

If this were the league of brownie baking, how many male executives would you expect to have?
ouch.

Better yet, who would really care how many there were?
double-ouch.

extremists who just search for something to get mad about. Just for a "cause."
rather than *extremists*, maybe they represent, are interested in the interests of, or are themselves *the minority* involved in the issue.

[Joltin' Joe]

How many women player are there in the ML?
that's academic.

How is this academic? Where are these "qualified" women executives supposed to come from? Certainly not from ex-players. Certainly not from ex-coaches or managers. From other industries? Which ones? Fashion? Automotive? Electronics? Where?
I would agree to the fact that all qualifications being equal, a woman is probably more likely to be snubbed for an executive position than a man.
The fact of the matter is, there are so few woman involved in the ML to begin with, there are hardly any women that are qualified for these executive postions to begin with.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

rather than *extremists*, maybe they represent, are interested in the interests of, or are themselves *the minority* involved in the issue.

Talking about the people that just take things a bit too far, when the issue really doesn't affect them at all. Sure, you can believe that drinking coffee is bad, so don't do it. Doesn't mean you need to go picket outside of every doughnut shop. Just looking for a cause.

In this case, if the "minority" is indeed women, then they should take whatever necessary steps to achieve their goal. Do you know if there's any type of "required interview" process with women, just as there is for minorities?

[west coast orange and black]

How is this academic?
quick, have all big show managers played in the bigs?*
and, were all who did succesful?

* here's a hint: no

[west coast orange and black]

when the issue really doesn't affect them at all
ouch. many care about others for the simple sake of.


Sure, you can believe that drinking coffee is bad, so don't do it. Doesn't mean you need to go picket outside of every doughnut shop. Just looking for a cause.
double ouch. if that is what they want to do, let 'em. it's their life, man. even but for "looking for a cause", let 'em. how is that not good?


In this case, if the "minority" is indeed women, then they should take whatever necessary steps to achieve their goal. Do you know if there's any type of "required interview" process with women, just as there is for minorities?
don't know hr stuff, sultan, but, you ask as if the status of *women* is not as a minority.
they are indeed a minority in the workforce.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

They've probably all either played in the bigs, played the game at some high level, or have been around the game their entire lives, giving them the required mind-set and and knowledge to succeed.

What percentage of college female students would you say, have "being a major league executive" as their career goals? How did the current female execs end up in these positions? Token hires? What do they bring to the table that a man couldn't?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

as if the status of *women* is not as a minority.
they are indeed a minority in the workforce.

In the workforce they might be for logical reasons. There's a reason why they make less than men also. Men do more dangerous work, and they generally work longer and harder than women.

Let's not pretend that women are just a weak little group. They hold a lot of power in society, and much of it has to do with nothing other than being a woman.

Just so you know where I'm sort of coming from. I was recently "let go" from my job that I'd been at for around 5 years. The reason? I was training out at the Nike campus, and I brought a Stuff magazine into the lunchroom to read. No big deal, other mags layin all around. A 10 year old could go in and buy that mag. Not in plastic, nothing. Just a variety magazine. So I leave it there when I'm done, for others to read. I leave, and apparently a woman picks it up and takes it into the bathroom for reading material. Well, that woman leaves it in there, and another woman comes in, sees it, and gets "offended" by it. Since I subscribe to it, my name was on the front, and my boss fired me for how it "made the company look." Nevermind that Nike never took me through any policy or procedures class, or even hand me a piece of paper with any policies on it. Nevermind that Nike had Playbody lingerie mags sitting right on top of their mailroom bins to be recycled, with female employees walking to and fro, right past it. No, it was MY friekin' STUFF magazine that offended this broad. Still pisses me off.

[538280]

I agree 100% that MLB is losing the black population, and that is sad. It is especially a bad thing for the league quality of the league. Blacks in general have had a much greater success rate in sports than other races, and yet MLB is losing them all.

[west coast orange and black]

They've probably all either played in the bigs, played the game at some high level, or have been around the game their entire lives, giving them the required mind-set and and knowledge to succeed.
plenty of brass never played the game.
plenty of 'em have failed miserably at being a part of brass.
many women have been around the game all their lives.

the game of baseball is a business. women have aptly demonstrated for quite long enough that they can manage people and can manage systems as well as the men.


What percentage of college female students would you say, have "being a major league executive" as their career goals?
a. doesn't matter
b. 1. how many men have?
b. 2. see "a", above*

* "b. 2" is an instruction :D

[Joltin' Joe]

How is this academic?
quick, have all big show managers played in the bigs?*
and, were all who did succesful?

* here's a hint: no

There are exceptions to everything. You have taken one single position(field manager) out of all the jobs available in the bigs. Your argument is that not all of them were successful as a player? What does that matter. They played! They experienced the game.

I ask once again, where are all these "qualified" women GMs & executives supposed to come from?

Baseball is a male dominated industry. It's just the way it is. Some people will complain about everything. What next? The epidemic dominance of the Avon Lady?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

plenty of brass never played the game.
plenty of 'em have failed miserably at being a part of brass.
many women have been around the game all their lives.



No, No, No Tony, this was your question: "quick, have all big show managers played in the bigs?*"

"Brass" wasn't asked about. If it was, my response would not have been the same.

[Joltin' Joe]

I agree 100% that MLB is losing the black population, and that is sad. It is especially a bad thing for the league quality of the league. Blacks in general have had a much greater success rate in sports than other races, and yet MLB is losing them all.

I agree with this statement. By not drawing from the talented Black pool, MLB is not as strong as it can be ultimately. However MLB's loss is NBA's gain.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I agree 100% that MLB is losing the black population, and that is sad. It is especially a bad thing for the league quality of the league. Blacks in general have had a much greater success rate in sports than other races, and yet MLB is losing them all.

Is is sad Chris, I agree with you. Depsite the enormous population, other factors are taking away a lot of talent from the game I think. The Latinos have picked up the slack nicely, but still, looking at some of these rosters, and watching some of these games, it's hard to believe we're not losing out on other talent imo. Also, I think a lot of these aging vets, or guys with big multi-year deals who no longer produce, are clogging up roster spots for talented minor leaguers to show what they can do.

[YOUgodofwalks]

I ask once again, where are all these "qualified" women GMs & executives supposed to come from?



College. Ever hear about the major of Sport Management? I have as I'm in it but a lot of people coming up are women. There are a large number of women who love baseball in the major who have had interships with minor league clubs and are getting experience. In a few more years all these women coming through college will have the education and experience to start taking on more important jobs, because there will certainly be a lot of them well qualfied if anyone wants to hire them.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

College might get them positions not directly related, or pretty much in any way related, to assessing players talents, team strategy, or dealing with any actual baseball stuff. Someone can study all they want about the UFC, but unless they've actually studied a chosen discipline and/or stepped in the octagon, what good are they. No doubt there's gotta be some positions where women can help out though. Maybe marketing or event planning or something.

[BadKarma]

What about women who have both college degrees and have played softball competitively? Yes, the 2 games are different, but they have demonstrated some level of athletic ability as well as the brain parts. Do you think somebody with that type of background could get and do a good job in some sort of management in baseball?

[BadKarma]

How did the current female execs end up in these positions? Token hires? What do they bring to the table that a man couldn't?

Yikes Sultan! Thats the type of thinking that we need to get away from. Why should a qualified woman have to bring something to the table that a man couldn't in order to be considered a good hire?


You don't want one of your most important employees taking time off because they have morning sickness, or they're tired from staying up with little Johnny all night, or a PTA meeting, or a soccer practice, etc...

Double Yikes!! So you are now implying that a woman wouldn't be able to do her job while also having a family life? Yet it's OK for men to? I go to PTA meetings, my son's soccer practice, games, I stay up late with my children, yet I still manage to hold my job down. I know a few single mothers where I work that I would choose to work with over several of the men there, and who perform a lot better then a lot of the men. And I work in a male dominant job myself.

Sultan, a few of your comments are bordering on misconceptions and though I hate to say it, ignorance. I realize that you have had a crappy life experience because of a percieved problem from the opposite sex, but please do not let that jade your thinking on women in the workplace for the rest of your life.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Interesting question. Maybe depends on how far in softball they went/how good they were.

It might give them an edge over other females who have absolutely no softball experience, but to me, it's just such a different animal. Without knowing exactly what job we're talking about, it's hard to assess. If it's the VP job, then what exactly does that entail. What decisions do they need to make regarding the ballclub? It's nothing against women to say they might not be best suited to understand grown up male millionaire baseball players' issues, or predict their future performances.

To a far lesser degree, I think it's sort of like the military. I'm against women being in the military in positions where they can put themselves in danger, because that in turn, puts everyone else in danger. We're just wired different. We're wired to handle different stress/situations/decisions/pressure/anxiety. We need to accept that imo, instead of wanting everyone to be so "equal." We can be "equal" and different at the same time.

It's just like when we start talking about why blacks are better athletes than whites in general. We're different physiologically and better suited for particular athletic moves, plain and simple. People get all sensitive and shy away from the issue. What's that famous quote, somethin' like "The first step toward knowledge is to know that we are ignorant," somethin' like that.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yikes Sultan!,
Double Yikes!!

You make good points, but I think there's something to the women with kids thing. You might be able to do it, and more power to you if you can, but we're also talking about high level, high stress, high hour type of job here, and you're not a woman. Not sure what you do, but it's probably not a high level MLB exec job right? Mr. Steinbrenner might frown on Patty Patsy needed to run home because her kid has a sore throat.

WC stated that some women actually hide the fact that they have kids because of this stereotype. From my experience, stereotypes, while not 100% accurate, come from general truisms, and if the powers that be, let that influence their decisions, we can't help that. It's prejudice for sure. The definition of that being, a preconceived idea or preference. Now, where would they get that preference from? From the clear blue sky? Is it a hunch? Or is it from either their own personal exeperiences, or people they know's personal experiences? I could ask you what people in Oregon are like, and you might say birkenstock wearing, tree hugging, pot smoking people who love the outdoors. You'd pretty pretty dang accurate, although there are many exceptions throughout the state. But our stereotype comes from overwhelming historical occurances of your opinion.

[BadKarma]

Lol, wish I had a high level MLB exec job. I work at a close custody male prison. Just a wee bit of stress involved in the job. Due to staff shortages most employees are putting in 12-16 hour days (on top of dealing with the worst of the worst offenders). If you think Steinbrenner would frown upon somebody leaving work for a sick child, you ain't seen nuthin'. You don't leave from here without being relieved, period. If there are women who can work in my job and perform at a high level, I believe there are some that can be MLB execs.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Alright. That helps me see this issue in a little different light. Thanks for that.

Honestly though, and don't get me wrong, I took criminal justice courses in college and respect the hell out of anyone in that field.. but the do you think the type of woman who performs your job, would be the same type to put on a business suit and be presentable physically and mentally at staff meetings? Just wonderin', seems like it would be a different breed of woman in terms of background and mentality. Maybe not.

[BadKarma]

They would most assuredly be of two different breeds of woman. The jobs have nothing really to do with each other. I was just demonstrating that women are capable of performing jobs adequately that are so called "men only" jobs. My point was that if there are women with the make up to work in my field, then there are some with the make up to work in that field.

[BadKarma]

Alright. That helps me see this issue in a little different light. Thanks for that.



Yet again why you are one of my favs here, and I tend to lend more credence to your posts. This speaks so highly of your character. I aspire to use common sense and always keep my mind open on all subjects, though, admittedly, I am found lacking there more often then I wish to be. It is refreshing to find someone of similiar "blood", so to speak.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

My point was that if there are women with the make up to work in my field, then there are some with the make up to work in that field.

Gotcha ;)

And likewise btw, about your other post after this.

[west coast orange and black]

joltin' joe: i did not intend to concentrate on manager as my argument. i threw it in because there is a great assumption by many that managers must have once played the game, succeed in it, also, in order to manage.
i was talking about club brass, then derailed myself a bit.

your question of what would it matter whether a manager played. it doesn't one bit.

my answer to your question of the source of the qualified women gm and executives is this:
wherever they can be found.

baseball oughtta challenge itself to hire women and other workforce minorities so that the club environments can be as recognizable as the non-baseball world.

"that's just the way it is" seems to lead more often than not to complacency and intellectual laziness. social changes for the better occur more often than not when goals are determined, announced and actively sought.

to be mired in a "that's the way it is" mindset means no "jackie robinson"*.

* "jackie robinson" means "change for the better"

[SoxSon]

I'm against women being in the military in positions where they can put themselves in danger, because that in turn, puts everyone else in danger. We're just wired different.


The much-younger me could see your point.
Then one day I took a good look at the guys I came into contact with on a daily basis, and I realized I'd rather depend on women.

[BadKarma]

The much-younger me could see your point.
Then one day I took a good look at the guys I came into contact with on a daily basis, and I realized I'd rather depend on women.


LOL, one of my points exactly.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The much-younger me could see your point.
Then one day I took a good look at the guys I came into contact with on a daily basis, and I realized I'd rather depend on women.

When talking about the stresses of battle, I would disagree completely. You honestly don't think men are wired to handle war better than women. Not talking war in the boardroom, or war as in, an argument. I'm talking war. I'm talking grenades flying, orders being shouted, being shot at, utter chaos.

On top of everything else, I think we as men are engrained to want to protect women, and to look out for their well being more than for other mens. In the real world this is great. In war, not so much. It can put a lot of people's lives in danger. Just like in that movie GI Jane or whatever, when that guy is kicking the crap out of Demi to get info from one of the guys. Plays on the sentimental factor. We can't afford that in interrigations or out on the battle field. It leads to rash decisions that could prove deadly. In the military, I agree with women being included. On the front lines though, not so much.

[west coast orange and black]

SoxSon: ...I took a good look at the guys I came into contact with on a daily basis, and I realized I'd rather depend on women.

the more i deal with people the more i love my dog.:rolleyes:

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Why single out MLB. How many women Exec's are there in basketball, football, hockey. Who can say or prove that they are being ignored, shut out. Did you ever think that there are not that many women who are even interested in holding those positions. That the pool of women to draw from is so small and thats the big reason that they do not hold many exec positions. I wonder how many women Marge Schott put in front office positions when she owned the Reds. When she was suspended from day to day control of the Reds in 1996 she appointed John Allen a man of course to fill her spot.

As for blacks and the low numbers in the game, hey maybe they have more interest in other sports. They're not bring ignored, it's their choice.

[Joltin' Joe]

Why single out MLB. How many women Exec's are there in basketball, football, hockey. Who can say or prove that they are being ignored, shut out. Did you ever think that there are not that many women who are even interested in holding those positions. That the pool of women to draw from is so small and thats the big reason that they do not hold many exec positions. I wonder how many women Marge Schott put in front office positions when she owned the Reds. When she was suspended from day to day control of the Reds in 1996 she appointed John Allen a man of course to fill her spot.

As for blacks and the low numbers in the game, hey maybe they have more interest in other sports. They're not bring ignored, it's their choice.

This is an excellent post. Shoeless brings up all the valid argument which the oppositon have yet to answer to.

Shoeless is 100% right. The primary reason for the severe minority representation of women brass in MLB is the tiny pool of women to draw from.
And quite frankly, this has never been an issue. Like Sultan said, there are certain extremist that will complain about anything & everything.

And on the issue of the disappearing black MLB stars, once again, I agree 100% with Shoeless. As I posted before, MLB's loss is NBA's gain.

[rockin500]

why should we care that women arent hired in a male dominated sport? I'm sure there are some are qualified, but I think there are more important jobs/issues to be worried about.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

What I'm saying is there is no scheme, it's not done by design, there is no plan to keep women out of more exec positions in the game. I can't say for sure that some men might not care to see some changes but I'm speaking of an elaborate plan to keep them out. You can be sure if there were enough women out there and they thought that was the case they would have made some noise about the situation.

Did anyone ever think that they just don't care that much about those positions in MLB or football, or basketball, hockey.

I'm sure Oliver Stone might paint a picture of a conspiracy amongst the boys in the game to keep these broads out of the game, I don't believe it.

Why are we always looking for schemes or plans to explain some situations, some things just happen for other reasons.

[The Big C]

I think that diversity among the player pool really takes care of itself. I don't think I am naive in believing that the time when the color of a player's skin dictated whether or not he would get a contract is over.

In the front office it is a different matter. I would tend to think that racial discrimination would be more of an issue than gender discrimination because, as stated numerous times already, fewer women will tend to apply for front office jobs than will men of minorities.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

On the subject, the great decline in blacks playing in the game today. You can go right from the college campus to the NBA or NFL, your in the big time.

Baseball different, you must spend time in the minors, low pay, travel by bus it's a longer, harder ride to MLB than it is to the NBA or NFL., not to mention you can become an instant millionaire in the other two team sports.