To Load or not load?......that is the question [Archive]

Chris O'Leary

04-21-2006, 08:31 AM

The question is, even though a dynamic load is ideal (load-unload), if a person is not ready to incorporate that yet, is a static load (load------------unload) a good place to start. I realize that you lose some (forgive me) "elasticity," but is this a good start? I am speaking specifically about the scaps. Thanks for any and all help.

First, in my opinion when it comes to the idea of loading the relevant structure is the muscles of the torso, not the scaps. The muscles of the torso are much larger and are much more obviously involved in the swing because their job is to rotate the shoulders.

In terms of time intervals, the research indicates that the longer the time period between the load and the unload (or the stretch and the shortening) the less the benefit. You have to coil and then immediately uncoil to realize the real benefits of the effect.

ssarge

04-21-2006, 08:52 AM

Chris:

First, in my opinion when it comes to the idea of loading the relevant structure is the muscles of the torso, not the scaps. The muscles of the torso are much larger and are much more obviously involved in the swing because their job is to rotate the shoulders.
I would be surprised to learn that scap loading is a huge point of enphasis for anyone in day one of working w/ a young hitter.

That said, loading the scaps is not just about increasing power or quickness.

My experience is that if the hitter can maintain the pinch / load of the rear scap around the corner, he won't push. This helps eliminate the problem very typically caused by the top hand.

I have almost never worked w/ a young hitter who did not - in some way - have a natural tendancy to push w/ the top hand. Depending too much on the top hand is ALWAYS a problem.

And there's no panacea. But a proper scap load helps - a LOT.

While I reject the idea of THT / BHT being ANYTHING like what Mankin describes, I would speculate that pulling the top hand towards the catcher, then letting the bottom hand "take over" IS another way to solve the problem caused by pushing the top hand. Not the "solution" I'D recommend, but it kind of does solve the problem. If the top hand doesn't push, the swing is quicker AND you hit the ball harder. Typical cause and effect stuff in the swing.

Regards,

Scott

ssarge

04-21-2006, 09:10 AM

What I am saying is while in the early stages of learning to load the body, it seems harder to try and time the load so that there is a "cusp" or stretch-shortening (I never, in my entire life, thought I would type those words ) or whatever that is called. So is it better to start off by loading up and waiting just to get the feel for it. This is actually a developmental question, obviously I have made it clear as mud I talked to Steve and he helped to cleared this up for me.
With my own daughter, we moved BACK to a static load to solve a specific problem of pushing. It took several months to solve the problem.

I know, as Tom pointed out, the resulting swing was NOT a Major League Pattern.

Neither is pushing.

She could / did still hit HRs with a static load. And hit for a reasonable average.

She couldn't, typically, when she was pushing.

Now that her pushing problem is solved - except for the increasingly rare reversion swing - she has recently moved back to a more dynamic load. I was in no hurry, because I wanted to be sure the pushing problem was REALLY solved, and because she was hitting effectively w/ the static load.

You HAVE to triage the swing. Kelly's pushing problem was subtle enough that it took STEVE a number of swings to see it. And I DIDN'T see it, and may never have.

Subtle or not, it was becoming a huge limitor. All I knew was that balls that used to exit were landing 10 feet short, and the swing wasn't as quick. I didn't know why.

A big part of the developmental process is learning what is really essential, and what is just nice. A young hitter CAN'T try to learn everything at once, and hit good enough while developing that anyone will let him / her play on their high-level team. And if the hitter can't face live pitching, he / she won't get better. Simple as that.

Beyond the practicalities, a lot of the bio-mechanical characteristics of MLB hitters - which we ALL aspire to - when emulated by kids - can actually MASK deep-rooted swing problems. In other words, the emulation lets the kids - ESPECIALLY skillfuil athletes or good mimics - "cheat."

For example, the stride or opening of the front foot lets them use the feet and legs to drive rotation, rather than the pelvis / torso. The upper body load CAN be accomplished in a manner similar to what MLB hitters pretty universally do. WAY more likely, the actions can look similar and NOT be remotely close to the same "under the covers" effect. But it looks good.

This is stuff gained from the trainer's perspective and working w/ kids in the field. I do that a LOT, and have gained some insights. Steve does it LITERALLY 12-15 hours per day, and has for the past 8 years. As part of that, he looks at as much video as ANYBODY and understands it extremely well. That video is a validation of what he learns actually working w/ hitters, though, not the BASIS for it. At least that's my opinion (and if wrong, I trust Steve will correct it).

Best regards,

Scott

bluke1

04-21-2006, 09:17 AM

First, in my opinion when it comes to the idea of loading the relevant structure is the muscles of the torso, not the scaps. The muscles of the torso are much larger and are much more obviously involved in the swing because their job is to rotate the shoulders.

In terms of time intervals, the research indicates that the longer the time period between the load and the unload (or the stretch and the shortening) the less the benefit. You have to coil and then immediately uncoil to realize the real benefits of the effect.

As I stated later, it was a question of progression. I believe you are correct that the torso is the most "relevant structure." I, personally, have been troubled with trying to load the scaps, thus my question about going ahead and "preloading" (if you will, static load) the scaps in order to get a feel for it in the swing. What (I think) you are describing is a dynamic load, or "cusp," type action, while I realize this is the long term goal, the question was: should I start "static" and work towards the immediate load-unload? Thanks for the responses.

egvfastpitch

04-21-2006, 09:28 AM

I could be off here and expect to hear about if it causes confusion, but I think that the scap load/pinch is similar to thinking about a small gear turning the large gear.

Does a smaller muscle (scap) move quicker than a muscle or set of muscles from the torso section? Without scap load, does it take slightly longer to initiate swing because the muscle group is larger? Does thinking interms of a ten speed bicycle with various gears, for faster turning pedals, an analogy one could use?

ssarge

04-21-2006, 07:56 PM

That said, loading the scaps is not just about increasing power or quickness.

My experience is that if the hitter can maintain the pinch / load of the rear scap around the corner, he won't push. This helps eliminate the problem very typically caused by the top hand.

Again. This is important.

Jevan

04-21-2006, 09:07 PM

I definitely agree Scott. I also think keeping the scap loaded around the corner is the cure for most bat drag problems.

fungo22

04-21-2006, 11:20 PM

I definitely agree Scott. I also think keeping the scap loaded around the corner is the cure for most bat drag problems.
Not necessarily. The main cause of bat drag (in my opinion) is trying to do to much with the top hand. Even if you maintain scap load, it is common for hitters to drop the elbow to initiate the swing. Three areas of understanding help cure bat drag: (1) to maintain the angle of the upper arm/elbow with the torso (no external rotation of the upper arm shoulder), (2) unload the middle to rotate the hips/torso/shoulder to quickly change the direction of the knob, and (2) quickly let the bottom hand take over the swing.

I agree with Scott too. Very helpful posts, although I don't at all understand the "top hand toward the catcher" solution. To me any focus on the top hand takes the focus off of what the hitter needs to do to most efficiently rotate the barrel to the ball. I would caution anyone who is serious about really learning to develop a more efficient swing against giving any consideration at all to Tom Guerry's "move this appendage in one direction while moving that appendage in another direction" swing process cause & effect diagramming. The secret is learning how to move in more athletic and efficient ways - not orchestrating detailed movements to a metronome.

I'm going to edit in an addition to the bat drag/hand pushing issue. My elder son tended both to drop his elbow to initiate his rotation and push his hands down to the ball. Solution: Drill #1. Lots of quality reps with cognitive focus on the three things I mentioned above. As in many aspects of language learning, explicit cognitive understanding of the "pattern" to be learned (1) expedites "internalization" of the pattern and (2) helps recognize deviation from the pattern in practice and "self-correct" so that deviations are not reinforced. When your young hitter says "I stood up on that swing" or "I disconnected that time," you are on your way to something better.

Based on a lot of things both Paul Nyman has said about motor learning, I've noticed a lot of similarities to second language learning. Something Paul said recently caused me to remember the benefits of "explicit understanding" in the process of internalizing complex new patterns. I'm not making an argument from second language acquisition theory (just making a not so casual observation), and I don't intend to make it a habit of quoting lengthy passages from second language acquisition research ... except perhaps to counter Tom's appeals to golf or throwing analogies. Nevertheless, I've noticed that my elder son makes faster progress at "internalizing" new motor skills because he "practices smart" with a pretty good understanding of what his body needs to do. Having more quickly "internalized" the new movement patterns, he is more quickly able to execute them "under fire" in competitive situations. My younger son is less "cognitive" in his drills, and his swing tends to break down and revert to old, inefficient patterns in game and even live-arm BP situations.

ssarge

04-21-2006, 11:35 PM

although I don't at all understand the "top hand toward the catcher" solution. To me any focus on the top hand takes the focus of of what the hitter needs to do to most efficiently rotate the barrel to the ball.
I hope I was clear that I don't recommend the solution, and don't think it is the right solution.

I m simply speculating that a "cue" of pull the top hand back and down might in fact eliminate an all too common top hand push. And that further, a "cue" of "pull with the bottom hand" might help a hitter who intuitively understands connection to maintain that connection between the front shoulder and bottom hand.

If true, it is ironic. A move designed to create bat speed w/ the top hand actually might improve the swing for SOME hitters. Not because it adds to bat speed (as maintained by the zealous) - I'm virtually certain that it does NOT do that. But because it basically eliminates the back hand as a force in the swing, and allows the parts of the body that SHOULD be developing bat speed to do so WITHOUT INTERFERENCE. And a move designed to create bat speed with the bottom hand might improve the swing for SOME hitters. Not because the bottom hand increases bat speed, but because bat speed is optimized if connection is maintained.

Best regards,

Scott

ssarge

04-21-2006, 11:42 PM

Yes.

Before I could say a word on a poor swing today, my daughter said, "I know, I know, no momentum."

She worked it out on her own, too.

This isn't important just as a source of pride. When they go away to college - should they be fortunate enough to play - they will not have us around to supervise. Who knows what the instruction will be like? But to assume it will be great would be Pollyanish.

The kid HAS to be able to self-correct.

MIne is a HS sophomore now. We are building a check list that can be self administered any time she feels her swing sucks. Kind of a: "here's where you start to rebuild your swing. Then do this, and this, and this." No surprise about the points of emphasis. But I want it ingrained in my kid's head so she'll always be able to rebuild to at least a level of reasonable competency in 50 swings or so. Even if it is just her room-mate soft tossing a ball of socks in the dorm room.

Best regards,

Scott

ssarge

04-22-2006, 01:02 AM

I definitely agree Scott. I also think keeping the scap loaded around the corner is the cure for most bat drag problems.
Top-Hand-Torque is NOT the cure for bat drag problems, that's for sure.

Regards,

Scott

tom.guerry

04-22-2006, 10:30 AM

Scott said:

While I reject the idea of THT / BHT being ANYTHING like what Mankin describes, I would speculate that pulling the top hand towards the catcher, then letting the bottom hand "take over" IS another way to solve the problem caused by pushing the top hand. Not the "solution" I'D recommend, but it kind of does solve the problem. If the top hand doesn't push, the swing is quicker AND you hit the ball harder. Typical cause and effect stuff in the swing.

Regards,

Scott

-------------

I say AMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMEN !!!!!!!!!!

Jack Mankin has the breakthrough concept down (arm/scap action sequence details still lacking smewhat - it isn't like pulling back a bowstring and there needs to be lead arm emphasis as well),Dixon actually noted the same fundamental thing in describing spin vs whip:

spin: torso with hand, arms are wasting energy pushing to assist rotation
(SEE P.34, FOR EXAMPLE)
whip: torso ahead of hands.
(SEE ILLUSTRATIONS OF DIFFERENT HITTING PATTERNS p.9)

BUT Dixon did not understand handpath/arm action details OR that arm action is KING in hitting and throwing.His stuff really breaks down/fails at this level of detail. Somehow the nice relaxed shoulders/arms are magically resisting turning as the "torso" has opened one third of the way by the end of the "shift to explode phase 2", hands still back until they whip through during phase 3 "explode". See his Brett analysis for example.pp.15-6.One recurring principle Dixon follows is ABSOLUTELY WRONG if whip is destination,and this is his REPEATED ASSERTION (for example,p.15) that:

".....The front shoulder must open if the lead leg opens..."

NONONONONONONONONONONO !!!!!!!!

Dixon nonetheless appreciated the similarity of throwing and hitting and the need for arm action emphasis,and he made a good faith effort to do everything he could to come to his own understanding of his favorite "authority" - Lau Sr. He did everything he could to leverage lau's stuff for his own improvement WITHOUT trashing Lau or turning on him.

Pattern recognition is the breakthrough concept with Dixon.Overlap of hitting and throwing is the next most important area of emphasis.

Sheriff and posse - get out these Dixon "manuals" (It IS a manual, see acknowledgements page x-7).Haven't heard much about him from you recently.

Nyman understood that arm action is king in throwing but will not "admit" the same is true for hitting.

Hitting is NOT all THAT reactive (not enough to change the arm action dominance of the motion) but you have to start/prepare EARLY just as Dixon says.

Hodge got the arm action sequence details (BOTH arms) and the back arm/lead leg synchronization mechanism for upper lower body loading (inadequately understod by Nyman as "mapping").

Mankin figired out that "arm action is king" in hitting and furthermore that the critical point was to NOT push with the hands, BUT to apply THT.

TRULY breakthrough stuff,ASSUMING your destination is whip,not spin.

Nyman and STEVE E have "apparently" figured out that knob turning is somehow essential.

I woud warn them to exercise some caution here until they come to understand that arm action is king in the high level mlb swing just as figured out by mankin.

I would say if you are going to spin, FORGET about knob turning.Just line that bat up with the lead arm and do the PCR thing.

IF you start focussing on knob turning,THEN arm action needs to be KING and your destination is the high level whip mlb pattern AND your player better learn the "UNIVERSAL" arm action sequence either by learning a good overhand throw and transplanting the solution OR by careful setting up of earlier positions and motions SUCH AS those described by swingbuster.

Good THT arm action is the only way I know of to rewire the pattern and put you on the path to the mlb whip pattern IF you decide that is your destination,BUT then this is not compatible with foreshortening hip coil,swaying,suppressing arm action,turning back hip into front,keeping front foot closed,turning like heck,narrowing knee base,early preloading, static separation,etc,etc.Try to otherwise (arm action not recognized as king) keep those hands ahead of the back elbow and you will inevitably push/spin/degrade coil forcing the spin pattern.

Steve Englishbey

04-22-2006, 03:02 PM

Nice job of "framing" Doc on the issue of Nyman and Englishbey knowing about the importance of the knob changing .

Everyone should understand that "changing the direction of the knob" is just another way of understanding or describing ,or attempting to convey the impotance of GETTING THE BARREL INTO THE MOMENTUM PATH OF THE BODY [SHOULDERS/TORSO] VERY QUICKLY ,EFFICIENTLY POWERFULLY.

And as such this is as much about FUNCTION ,as it is about FORM .

As I have stated once allready here in this forum there was in a thread at Setpro [somewhere around 2001 ] entitled "Changing the direction of the knob." Tom of course ,makes no mention of this here. Tom ---AGAIN----overlooked that which does not conform to his transparent biases .

The action and functioning of the shoulders has a great deal to do with creating this kind of efficiency. Thus was born the term "scapula loading /unloading.And hundreds ,if not thousands of pgs.[and illustrations at setpro ]dealing with the issue of scapula action and ,posture ,and the momentum path of the barrel.

Tom Guerry was at Setpro for over 3 years [posting almost everyday].

It would appear that as he increasingly filled his head with all kinds of information to fit his near obsession for universals ,ie., looking only for that which fits his apriori need to find these universals, he has either forgotten most of what he read at Setpro . Or never actually understood it ----and thus remains forever ignorant of its content.Or forever biased . Or some combination of both.

As far as me understanding the importance of the momentum path of the barrel [which ,again the , "changing the direction of the knob ' is certainly part of that understanding ]?

Well this goes back to reading Robert Adair 's "The Physics of Baseball" ,and his "rock on a rope analogy", and my swinging my 8 lb shotput in a sock [so as to better understand physically what Robert was talking about in terms of his analogy. I learned alot by doing this -----learning that cannot be accomplished by sitting at a computer ,looking for "superficial kinematics" and "universals " that universally cannot be seen by anybody but you].

I read the book -----and started doing this swinging ---before I found Setpro.

Again ,Doc, nice try at "framing" and "selective bias ."

steve

jojab

04-23-2006, 10:00 AM

With regard to the cue posted by Scott about "pinching the scap (or holding the scap load) around the corner" being a good way to eliminate the top hand taking over/bat drag/pushing:

Not necessarily. The main cause of bat drag (in my opinion) is trying to do to much with the top hand. Even if you maintain scap load, it is common for hitters to drop the elbow to initiate the swing. Three areas of understanding help cure bat drag: (1) to maintain the angle of the upper arm/elbow with the torso (no external rotation of the upper arm shoulder), (2) unload the middle to rotate the hips/torso/shoulder to quickly change the direction of the knob, and (2) quickly let the bottom hand take over the swing.

I'm going to edit in an addition to the bat drag/hand pushing issue. My elder son tended both to drop his elbow to initiate his rotation and push his hands down to the ball. Solution: Drill #1. Lots of quality reps with cognitive focus on the three things I mentioned above.

I think Scott's suggestion was excellent. One of my boys has really been struggling with the top hand issue (he's 10). He knows what he needs to do but hasn't quite been able to eliminate the push. He is also a pitcher and so he knows what scap load is in terms of the "W" that he works on for pitching.

The other night we were driving to his game and I explained Scott's cue to him. He trys it out in the backseat and says he gets exactly what to do. He tried it out in batting practice (which I missed because I was coaching my younger son's game that was before his). He then proceeds to use it in the game. The result: four line drives to the OF in four AB's against a pretty good 12 year old pitcher, three falling for hits (no video this time of course...ugh). After the game he tells me, "Dad, that totally works!" "Email that guy and tell him thanks!"

I believe holding the load around the corner also helps eliminate the back elbow drop to initiate the swing as well. Try this: hold your back elbow up like you would in your pre-swing with no scap load (pinch). Now move it up and down. Now load or pinch your back scap and again move the elbow up and down. Not as easy, right?

While you're at it, repeat the same as above and try to move your top hand in the non-loaded and the loaded position. There is a difference.

Thanks again, Scott.

Joe

ssarge

04-23-2006, 10:43 AM

Joe,

Glad it was useful for the kid. 3 for 4 is good stuff!!

Credit to Steve, though, not me. He can both explain and demonstrate proper scapular action in a way that is instantly understandable. He was the first and only (so far) who could do that for me.

And he also knows why it is important, and can explain that, too. Function over form. Not pushing is one thing. Changing knob dorection early and setting up the fish hook early is another.

Getting rid of a push is absolutely crucial. You do whatever you have to do becuase it is an insidious problem, and will absolutely limit a hitter's future.

The point is, the scap load is important for several reasons. But figuring out what to do w/ the top hand (not much) is a big part of it.

There is also a developmental process that is important. A young hitter typically won't take advantage of all the benefits good scapular action can provide immediatley / all at once. It just doesn't work that way. Again, something Steve understands from having worked with literally thouands of hitters and watched them develop.

So I do appreciate the kind words. But would also suggest that if you haven't yet, you should buy Steve's DVDs and gain the advantage of his instruction first hand. I suppose many of us can watch video and gain some insight into scapular action. Speculative insight, really, because it is largely a "below the covers" thing. But that has a certain value. Knowing how to actually teach a kid to do it has much more value. An order of magnitude more for most of us. And I flat out guarantee that no amount of studying video wil do that. You need a trainer's perspective, or a lot of time / systematic approach to work through trial and error. Just like so many other elements of the swing.

Meaning it's one thing to analyze swings that were 20 years in the making by guys who became - through talent and skill - the .99999 percentile. It's quite another to figure out what to do w/ an average kid who wants to maximize his / her abilities and opportunities in the sport.

Best regards,

Scott

swingbuster

04-23-2006, 12:09 PM

Pretty interesting stuff about bottom hand connection and " how to"

1. Maintaining the top hand around the corner by holding the back scap.

2. Changing directions of the knob

3. BHUT loading patterns....counter rotation of the rotation center between the hands

What is the common effect of all these mechanisms? Pretty close to the same thing....getting the top hand in an inferior position when the rotation begins. UNLEVRERAGE THE PULL FORCE OF THE TOP HAND FOR AN INSTANT AND THE BOTTOM HAND WILL BE THE DEFAULT CONNECTION

Can a player trust a shoulder turn vs. pull with the top hand...that is the question.

fungo22

04-23-2006, 12:52 PM

With regard to the cue posted by Scott about "pinching the scap (or holding the scap load) around the corner" being a good way to eliminate the top hand taking over/bat drag/pushing: Bat drag and pushing are two different problems.

I think Scott's suggestion was excellent. Yes, Scott's suggestion was excellent, and if you interpreted anything I wrote to imply otherwise, then either I did a poor job of writing or you misread what I wrote.

I believe holding the load around the corner also helps eliminate the back elbow drop to initiate the swing as well. Try this: hold your back elbow up like you would in your pre-swing with no scap load (pinch). Now move it up and down. Now load or pinch your back scap and again move the elbow up and down. Not as easy, right?

While you're at it, repeat the same as above and try to move your top hand in the non-loaded and the loaded position. There is a difference.
Joe You think I haven't tried it? Do what you want to do, but I'm telling you that if in addition to holding the scap load around the corner, you don't also have him focus on maintaining the upper arm/elbow angle, it will be a natural tendency to drop the elbow to initiate the swing, especially if he has a history of being a hand/arm swinger and bat drag.

And before you let your experiment be a basis for dismissing what I wrote, you'd better also look at a buttload of MLB hitters' swings in which their scap loads at the same time their elbow drops. So maintaining scap load by no means precludes or prevents dropping the elbow. Mark Mcgwire (for one loaded his scap) without raising his elbow. If you think simply keeping the scap loaded has any real relation to external rotation of the upper arm from the glenhumeral joint, then you need to learn more about scap loading.

Furthermore, Paul Nyman has warned that scap loading alone is not a cure for bat drag. Dismiss what he says at your own peril (or that of your young hitter). Drill #1 was designed by Steve to practice both maintaining the scap load around the corner and maintaining the upper arm/elbow angle. Dismiss his understanding at your own peril (or that of your young hitter).

tom.guerry

04-23-2006, 01:10 PM

Sherriff and posse have lost interets in the Dixon stuff I guess.

fungo22

04-23-2006, 07:59 PM

Furthermore, Paul Nyman has warned that scap loading alone is not a cure for bat drag. Dismiss what he says at your own peril (or that of your young hitter). Drill #1 was designed by Steve to practice both maintaining the scap load around the corner and maintaining the upper arm/elbow angle. Dismiss his understanding at your own peril (or that of your young hitter).

Upon reflection, I may have taken Nyman out of context here. Paul's warning was that scap loading alone is not a cure for bat drag, but he may not have meant it in the same sense as me. He may agree that maintaining scap load will prevent bat drag.

Steve's position (as I understand it) is that it is important to maintain the arm/elbow angle in order to maintain the scap load. Hence the focus on that in Drill #1.

Mark H

04-23-2006, 11:30 PM

BUT Dixon did not understand handpath/arm action details.

Read Dixon for how elite athletes move the middle. End of story. He has one very important point.

OR that arm action is KING in hitting and throwing..

Who besides you DOES "understand" this?

His stuff really breaks down/fails at this level of detail. .

Level of detail has never been your failing.

Steve Englishbey

04-24-2006, 05:25 AM

To answer the Sultan's question as regards "a pause" .

The answer is no ----and it is most certainly not what I teach or try to convey.

Even with a static load in which the hitter should have slightly stretched [eccentrically] both shoulders [stretched against the torso to create greater tension in the shoulders and the front arm [tricep].

And should have engaged the posterior chain [lower back ,hamstrings ,gluteal complex] by tilting the pelvis [thus streching those muscles].

Even with a static load [and no stride] there should be "anticipatory loading " as the pitch is about to be thrown.

Meaning that even static loading ----certainly in a live context----should not really be static.

All good hitters engage in "anticipatory actions " ,meaning that there is this sense of "ok here we go,time now to REALLY get ready for what is ABOUT to happen."

At that point a staic load should become further engaged----meaning shoulders should stretch , further tilting ,"sitting "should be engaged.And you will usually see some subtle [but functionaly significant] eccentric twisting in the hip joints.[All of the above, by the way ,is part of what I would consider "one move" ,meaning the movement is a "systemic engagement", its the mind/body engaging as one thing----about to do one thing------unload the body with the bat "attached ".]

With most really good hitters ,I would argue that this kind of "anticipatory engagement " is a function of neural factors---meaning the brain,central nervous system,and sensory input.The brain is "getting excited " ,focused,etc,and the anticipatory movement flows out of this neural activity and excitation.

When I go watch high school hitters, the first thing I look for is some sign of "psycho-physical " anticipatory engagement ---of the pelvic region especially.

There are a number of subtle movements that I look for.

I do not see this kind of subtle engagement very often.

Of those few that I do see it , they are almost always the guys that are going to D1 colleges.

Or will be drafted.

Thus ,even a so-called static load---certainly in a live context----should not be really static.

This is not to say that I do not use any number of static drills [usually done for the express purpose of getting a hitter to "lock-in " a movement ,or to force them to use the body in ways they are not used to, or that they are physically unaware of. Or to better mandate certain kinds of movement.]

But these kinds of drills should be understood as but a part of the PROCESS of the development of a hitter.

Part of the process of learning what really is vital to learn, part of the process of learning how to become more efficient at using the body to swing the bat.[And in the context of this thread what is vital to learn and really understand is what I have described as "anticipatory loading".]

With the ultimate goal being that of learning how to load and unload body in a manner that is most effective for each individual.

Relatively speaking ,that is a long -term project.

Anything done really well always is.

steve

swingbuster

04-24-2006, 06:14 AM

Good post Steve,

I watch from the 1B box to see what subtle responses the hitters are giving to the pitchers motion. If everything is very still we are in trouble.

Well written

jojab

04-24-2006, 12:00 PM

Fungo22:

The basis of quoting your post was my way of saying that Scott’s post on the cue “holding the scap load around the corner” had helped my son to better eliminate the use of his top hand. It was a cue that worked for him. Perhaps I misread what you meant by “Not necessarily. The main cause of bat drag (in my opinion) is trying to do to much with the top hand.” in response to Jevan’s post?

In my mind all this cue does for us (my son and I) is helps us to better understand what is going on in Drill 1 – it doesn’t contradict it. One thought that comes to mind is from a post Steve made about a high-level coach watching his DVD 20 times and getting something new out of it every time.

As for my suggestion to try moving the back elbow and back hand while the back scap is pinched, that was not directed at you (as I had no doubt that you have done this already), but rather towards the reader that is trying to better understand the importance of scap loading.

Joe

fungo22

04-24-2006, 10:11 PM

The basis of quoting your post was my way of saying that Scott’s post on the cue “holding the scap load around the corner” had helped my son to better eliminate the use of his top hand. It was a cue that worked for him. Perhaps I misread what you meant by “Not necessarily. The main cause of bat drag (in my opinion) is trying to do to much with the top hand.” in response to Jevan’s post? Then you are absolutely right in my opinion.

One thought that comes to mind is from a post Steve made about a high-level coach watching his DVD 20 times and getting something new out of it every time. I'm embarrassed to tell you how few times I've watched it.

As for my suggestion to try moving the back elbow and back hand while the back scap is pinched, that was not directed at you (as I had no doubt that you have done this already), but rather towards the reader that is trying to better understand the importance of scap loading. Well, as it turns out, I was technically wrong in what I asserted. Although I was maintaining the requisite "tension" in or about my scapula complex, thus maintaining the requiste connection to effectively connect the bat to my shoulder rotation and avoid hand pushing, I was technically not maintaining scap load to the degree that it had been achieved. I apparently did not understand as much about the complexities of scapula action as I thought I did.

So not only did I misunderstand you in my self-righteous indignation, I shot ignorantly from the hip to some degree. I apologize for my hair-trigger response. :grouchy No excuse, sir.

I'm sure it won't happen again.

Jevan

04-24-2006, 10:29 PM

Fungo,

That is wayyyy cool!:gt

ssarge

04-24-2006, 11:39 PM

Well, as it turns out, I was technically wrong in what I asserted. Although I was maintaining the requisite "tension" in or about my scapula complex, thus maintaining the requiste connection to effectively connect the bat to my shoulder rotation and avoid hand pushing, I was technically not maintaining scap load to the degree that it had been achieved. I apparently did not understand as much about the complexities of scapula action as I thought I did.
My understanding of scapula action is moderate at best.

The thing is, I thought I had it knocked a year ago. Then Steve came out, looked at some hitetrs I'd worked with, and. . . .well, he did manage not to laugh. (at least in front of the girls).

It is one of those things where it is relatively easy to get it ALMOST right; quite difficult to nail it perfectly.

Regards,

Scott

GeorgiaHoo

04-26-2006, 11:15 AM

Chris:

My experience is that if the hitter can maintain the pinch / load of the rear scap around the corner, he won't push. This helps eliminate the problem very typically caused by the top hand.

I have almost never worked w/ a young hitter who did not - in some way - have a natural tendancy to push w/ the top hand. Depending too much on the top hand is ALWAYS a problem.

Regards,

Scott

Ok, so (1) how do you teach/explain scap load and (2) how do you identify whether there is a top-hand push.

swingbuster

04-26-2006, 11:18 AM

You tell him to maintain the barrel splitting the helmet, hands cocked until toe touch and his scaps will stay loaded. Please do not try to explain scap load to the kid. He will not get it. You risk making his top hand grip the bat more

As a rule you will need to lower the lead elbow and raise the rear elbow in order to get the bat on that plane.

Having a player identify bat location is easier than teaching muscle tensions ect. One you can see the other is a feel and they get the feel wrong many times

GeorgiaHoo

04-26-2006, 11:21 AM

With my own daughter, we moved BACK to a static load to solve a specific problem of pushing. It took several months to solve the problem.

I know, as Tom pointed out, the resulting swing was NOT a Major League Pattern.

...

Beyond the practicalities, a lot of the bio-mechanical characteristics of MLB hitters - which we ALL aspire to - when emulated by kids - can actually MASK deep-rooted swing problems. In other words, the emulation lets the kids - ESPECIALLY skillfuil athletes or good mimics - "cheat."

For example, the stride or opening of the front foot lets them use the feet and legs to drive rotation, rather than the pelvis / torso. The upper body load CAN be accomplished in a manner similar to what MLB hitters pretty universally do. WAY more likely, the actions can look similar and NOT be remotely close to the same "under the covers" effect. But it looks good.

...

Best regards,

Scott

Ok, so how do explain the difference between static and dynamic load? Also, it seems to me that the front foot has to open if you are going to rotate, so how do you recognize/explain the difference between the front foot driving rotation as opposed to the pelvis/torso driving rotation?

GeorgiaHoo

04-26-2006, 11:24 AM

You tell him to maintain the barrel splitting the helmet, hands cocked until toe touch and his scaps will stay loaded. Please do not try to explain scap load to the kid. He will not get it. You risk making his top hand grip the bat more

That makes sense, but if its simply keeping the bat back then it doesn't seem like "loading." I understood it to be more of a hands-go-back-front-shoulder- turns-in type of movement. Is that totally off-base?

That's what I see when I look at videos of MLB swings anyway.

jojab

04-26-2006, 12:13 PM

Please do not try to explain scap load to the kid. He will not get it.

I don't agree with this. Assuming it is GeorgiaHoo's own kid -- and there is going to be an ongoing coach/student relationship and this is not just a quick tip to fix something, I think the kid should get a pretty comprehensive education. I like to tell my boys why they are learning something and also show them clips of MLB players doing whatever it is we are working on (my way, I guess, of making sure they learn early to use video as the truth detector).

My boys that are 10, 10 and 7 all know what a scap load is (even if the 7 year old keeps forgetting what it's called). My 5 year old claimed he felt "the pinch" when hitting off the tee yesterday, but I'm not quite sure about that!

I showed them all this video clip of Vlad and had them all try to "pinch their back shoulder" until they got it.

http://www.savefile.com/files/2960057

Joe

swingbuster

04-26-2006, 12:27 PM

That makes sense, but if its simply keeping the bat back then it doesn't seem like "loading." I understood it to be more of a hands-go-back-front-shoulder- turns-in type of movement. Is that totally off-base?

I think your statement is one I agree with in part........ loading is weighting the back foot through hip coil, cocking the hands, and turning the shoulder unit back. THere is more happening then pinching a shoulder muscle on one side

What are we doing here anyway? We want the shoulder unit turned back until our foot gets down to drive the shoulder unit around.

Go back and look at that clip again...where is the bat barrel location ( look closely), where is the lead elbow. That is the most misleading clip posted and used as scap loading evidence. What your seeing is just representative of him turning the whole shoulder unit backwards around the spinal axis. The shoulder unit has two sides. The lead elbow came down, the rear up, the bat transition out of plane in front . Pinching the scap doesn't happen without the whole thing doing what I described. The distance between the tip of the lead elbow and the tip of the rear elbow do not change much during the load. The lead is coming in and down as the rear is going up and back as a unit.

To tell kids to isolate and pinch the muscle group is not going to help unless the shoulders simply turn back around the axis and stay there during the stride.

There are better ways to explain it and better mechanisms to accomplish the same thing IMO.

My kids know what it is but that never made them hit better. We moved on to hand set and bat location and they are batting better

jojab

04-26-2006, 01:35 PM

THere is more happening then pinching a shoulder muscle on one side.

Where did I say there wasn’t more going on? Now you’re adding to your hand cock statement that you want the shoulders to turn back as a unit.

Do you think it is possible to cock your hands and put them by your back shoulder and not scap load? It is unless you engage your shoulders to move them in the right place.

To tell kids to isolate and pinch the muscle group is not going to help unless the shoulders simply turn back around the axis and stay there during the stride.

Again, I’m not sure what you think we are talking about but remember this all started earlier in the thread when we were talking about the cue of “holding the scap load around the corner”. To suggest I was saying pinch the back shoulder at some random point in your swing and you’ll be set, is ignoring the context of this discussion.

Joe

swingbuster

04-26-2006, 03:13 PM

Joe,

sorry , the story should go " I have made the mistake of isolating that statement about pinching the scap to kids and it did not help ; not you". I am aware of what is does but not sure how to use the fact to teach hitting like others are apparently able to do.

Did not mean to sound like a jerk sorry again

fungo22

04-26-2006, 09:09 PM

Ok, so how do explain the difference between static and dynamic load? By "static load," Scott meant the hitter assumes a loaded position (more like a stance with the butt and chest out, the torso tilted a bit, and the elbows and shoulders lifted) instead of moving into a loaded position (dynamic load), usually in conjunction with a stride and some coiling.

Also, it seems to me that the front foot has to open if you are going to rotate It does not have to open. If it does open, it must not open the hips.

so how do you recognize/explain the difference between the front foot driving rotation as opposed to the pelvis/torso driving rotation? One thing that helps is to rotate without opening the front foot/knee. It isn't easy at first because they aren't used to doing it. If you can't imagine it, then you may have the same problem. Limber up. Learn to swivel the hips independent of the legs. When you can turn them 90 degrees without turning the front leg/knee/foot, then you're onto something.

fungo22

04-26-2006, 09:22 PM

Ok, so (1) how do you teach/explain scap load and (2) how do you identify whether there is a top-hand push. Do a Google search for "scapular adduction and you might find some pictures. Scap loading is pretty difficult to explain, so I'll give you my version. Jojab can vouch for it:

Stand with arms extended straight forward as if sleep walking. Grab the oar handles and pull them as far back as possible so that if someone looks down from a helicopter at you, your arms will form a W. It is primarily the muscles in the scap complex that draws the elbows back* and pulls the oars toward you. You should feel a sensation of the shoulder blades "pinching" together toward the spine. When these muscles concentrically contract in this way, the "scaps" are effectively loaded. In swinging a bat, you "load" the rear scap. Isometric tension holds the scap in a "loaded" position until the shoulders are well into their turn.

Another way to describe it is "scapula adduction." Do a Google search and you'll get some decent explanations and maybe a photo or two.

*The hand and elbow position does not load the scap. The scap moves the elbow. Also beware of counterrotation of the shoulders passing as scap load. The shoulder unit (approx from the end of the collar bone out) is retracted - not the entire back half of the body.

dougmac

04-26-2006, 10:03 PM

By "static load," Scott meant the hitter assumes a loaded position (more like a stance with the butt and chest out, the torso tilted a bit, and the elbows and shoulders lifted) instead of moving into a loaded position (dynamic load), usually in conjunction with a stride and some coiling.

It does not have to open. If it does open, it must not open the hips.

One thing that helps is to rotate without opening the front foot/knee. It isn't easy at first because they aren't used to doing it. If you can't imagine it, then you may have the same problem. Limber up. Learn to swivel the hips independent of the legs. When you can turn them 90 degrees without turning the front leg/knee/foot, then you're onto something.

Greg, I have never seen a clip of a big leaguer pulling a ball where his front foot did not open up. He may stride to a closed position, but as rotation starts, the foot starts opening up.

I also don't see why you would be on to something by turning your hips 90 degrees without turning your front leg,knee or foot when film of the big leaguers show them doing it.

Mark H

04-26-2006, 11:52 PM

Doug,

He's talking about a drill. No problem with emulating what you describe in a game swing. Talk to Steve about the reason for the closed front foot as a teaching methodology with a hitter who doesn't know how to rotate.

fungo22

04-27-2006, 12:18 AM

He's talking about a drill. No problem with emulating what you describe in a game swing. Talk to Steve about the reason for the closed front foot as a teaching methodology with a hitter who doesn't know how to rotate. Yup. A drill or exercise. If the young fellow doesn't appreciate the difference between initiating rotation by loading and unloading the hips on one hand, and initiating rotation by opening his front leg on the other, one way of learning to do it is by rotating without opening the front foot. And Mark's right. I'm not talking about a game swing here. I'm just talking about learning to turn the hips with the muscles in the middle of his body and to develop some flexibility. Heck, even as good a hitter as me opens his front foot some to jack the inside pitch.

swingbuster

04-27-2006, 05:28 AM

Stand with arms extended straight forward as if sleep walking. Grab the oar handles and pull them as far back as possible so that if someone looks down from a helicopter at you, your arms will form a W. It is primarily the muscles in the scap complex that draws the elbows back* and pulls the oars toward you. You should feel a sensation of the shoulder blades "pinching" together toward the spine. When these muscles concentrically contract in this way, the "scaps" are effectively loaded. In swinging a bat, you "load" the rear scap. Isometric tension holds the scap in a "loaded" position until the shoulders are well into their turn.

Fungo...some clarification please

I get the scap load definition but I have a hard time with what the lead shoulder should be doing when you isolate the rear . The dominant bottom hand must get in position to swing and the lead elbow WILL get behind the belly button reqardless of bat plane. You do not want the tip-to-tip elbow distance to increase during the load. If it does not increase then the shoulders must turn back around the spine as a unit .

Is this correct?

GeorgiaHoo

04-27-2006, 06:51 AM

Mark H

04-27-2006, 07:14 AM

The torso/chest in this clip is turning in VERY slightly. It looks like more than that because of the scap adduction and abduction respectively.

GeorgiaHoo

04-27-2006, 07:55 AM

It looks like there's much more turn here.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=0&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Ohfor

04-27-2006, 08:28 AM

Look at the lead shoulder.

All that movement and the lead shoulder barely moves.

How does she do that?

Mark H

04-27-2006, 09:26 AM

GH,

I see very little counter rotation of the upper torso.

Ohfor,

She is fun to watch move. I think of her as the poster child for forward by turning.

GeorgiaHoo

04-27-2006, 10:18 AM

I'm ordering Steve's video next week and look forward to viewing it. I've worked with my daughter some on her swing over the last month or so. My biggest concern is I'm screwing her swing up but whatever we're doing is helping. She's tripled into the gap in each of the last 2 games (she's 12) and has been killing the ball for the last 2 weeks.

Once I figure out what I'm doing I might be able to make her a really dangerous hitter.

fungo22

04-27-2006, 07:12 PM

When you talk about "coiling" are you talking about the inward turn of the shoulder/torso? Something similar to this clip?

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=6&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 "Coil" (as I use the term) refers to a slight counterrotation of the hips - not the torso/shoulders. If you get the DVD, there's more than you'll need on disk 2.

fungo22

04-27-2006, 07:26 PM

Fungo...some clarification please

I get the scap load definition but I have a hard time with what the lead shoulder should be doing when you isolate the rear . The dominant bottom hand must get in position to swing and the lead elbow WILL get behind the belly button reqardless of bat plane. You do not want the tip-to-tip elbow distance to increase during the load. If it does not increase then the shoulders must turn back around the spine as a unit .

Is this correct? I only understand some of what you're describing/asking.

Front scap abducts (and elevates) as rear scap adducts. I don't want to get into it here, but I think there are differnt patterns for MLB hitters regarding rear scap action in addition to adduction (elevation VS downward rotation), but I'm somewhat out of my league when it comes to muscle physiology. Anyway, your question was about the front shoulder.

I think hand position is more important than front elbow's relative position, but I more or less agree that the front elbow moves up and rearward. I've never measured or even thought about the tip-to-tip elbow distance.

swingbuster

04-28-2006, 04:48 AM

Front scap abducts (and elevates) as rear scap adducts. I don't want to get into it here, but I think there are differnt patterns for MLB hitters regarding rear scap action in addition to adduction (elevation VS downward rotation), but I'm somewhat out of my league when it comes to muscle physiology. Anyway, your question was about the front shoulder.

I think hand position is more important than front elbow's relative position, but I more or less agree that the front elbow moves up and rearward. I've never measured or even thought about the tip-to-tip elbow distance.

I have always known that " how you set the bat back" was important before the new term sets. I used to tell LL players to set the bat on the shoulder and with the lead arm only " pick the bat up and set it back; now put your top hand on it" I wanted the bottom hand to control it. I wanted the lead elbow behind the belly button and the rear elbow up and back( out of the way) and relaxed.

The point of tip to tip is that the unit/ box is turning back around the axis. There is no spreading of the arms. I see players take the rear elbow up and back and the front elbow wants to stay where it was. It yields a weird box with big knuckle alignment.

I think the observation of the shoulders turning around the axis wthout counter rotation is golden. If you pick the bat up with the lead arm only and put it back you can feel the lead side pect muscle contracting by placing the opposite fingers on your left pect tendon and repeat. What are we doing here anyway?...Simply put we are tuirning the shoulder unit back an dholding it there. Now can we go with the hips and leave it there. THat is the question and it IS about what happens under the uniform next. Like " drop and tilt" or any cue it can be executed wrong

For kids a pinching scap can yield a tight top hand and a loose bottom hand completely transferring the weight of the bat to the top hand. So in an effot to get around the corner you can still have the top hand controlling the bat. It is a tricky situation for sure. I can walk around a player and poke around and find the tension. The lead side pect muscle should be tight. THe rear side arm more relaxed and the rear side scap tight.

When a player looks like they are in hitting position, the muscle groups activated might be wrong in the set up and / or go wrong at swing initiation

GeorgiaHoo

04-28-2006, 07:54 AM

I have always known that " how you set the bat back" was important before the new term sets. I used to tell LL players to set the bat on the shoulder and with the lead arm only " pick the bat up and set it back; now put your top hand on it" I wanted the bottom hand to control it. I wanted the lead elbow behind the belly button and the rear elbow up and back( out of the way) and relaxed.

The point of tip to tip is that the unit/ box is turning back around the axis. There is no spreading of the arms. I see players take the rear elbow up and back and the front elbow wants to stay where it was. It yields a weird box with big knuckle alignment.

One thing I can't picture that I see mentioned a fair bit is the "box." What is it?

Is front elbow behind the belly button pretty regularly taught? I don't see many girls here doing it.

Ifubuildit

04-28-2006, 09:40 AM

Hoo,

When you get Steve's video you will understand what the "Box" is and why it plays an important role in the swing. Easy to understand. Difficult to perform unless practiced many times. I am working on it now, and it is not easy after being a linear hitter for way too many years with my swing.

You can teach old dogs new tricks but it would have been much easier 35 years ago........

Elliott.

swingbuster

04-28-2006, 10:07 AM

I will not guarantee much but...this I do

1. If you get to foot plant and the lead elbow is not spatially behind the belly button you will not hit the ball correctly.

2. This is a good indicator point that the batter turned the shoulders back and kept them back to launch

Ohfor

04-28-2006, 10:16 AM

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/baseball/2/AlbertPujols5.gif

fungo22

04-28-2006, 07:17 PM

Well said.

swingbuster

04-28-2006, 09:04 PM

Well said.

Well said but that swing is very hard to teach. You think the reduced motion is easier to teach but the opposite is true.

Mark H

04-28-2006, 09:08 PM

Perhaps that is true for you?

swingbuster

04-29-2006, 04:32 AM

Perhaps that is true for you?

If Pujols is you goal and it is easily teachable then you should be able to post somebody by him that does what he does.

1. Coils his hips

2. Postural and hand set bat plane transition

3. shift his weight

4. rotate and extend his lead leg just prior to contact

Mine is much easier to teach. Hand set, hip coil, and get off the back side is teachable and I have never made reference to months and months of work to get there. Putting the player in position where the upper and lower halves work more naturally works. Even if you have a weak, non-existent, or inconsistent hip coil the hand loading with save your butt many times when you must extend to the ball.

Posturally aligning to the pitch plane is good but you better have a back up plan when your off the plane trying to hit off speed or movement. Relying on turning into the pitch path is only as good as you turn and connection ; then only as good as you ability to line it up on all kinds of pitches. Using pure flail reduces you ability to make late adjustments or/ you must make high accurate early judgements of pitch location

Quick turn vs whip action covering the strike zone with the ability to extend to the ball up and down and in and out.

Mark H

04-29-2006, 06:07 AM

Your experience is your experience. To say that teaching good momentum transfer and rotation with a stride is easier than teaching it without is not my experience. Greater momentum development is possible WITH a stride. This is why Mantle swung the way he did. Pujols' size means he doesn't necessarily have to work as hard to develop and transfer sufficient energy to the ball. Handling greater momentum without things breaking down is more difficult than handling lesser momentum the same way handling a Forumla One car is more difficult than a street car. If a kid can handle a big stride, then fine.

Ohfor

04-29-2006, 07:08 AM

Well said.

What did I say?

fungo22

04-29-2006, 09:03 AM

What did I say?I was referring to your treatise on the elbow behind the belly button at foot plant.

Mark H

04-29-2006, 10:02 AM

A bit wordy perhaps.

Ohfor

04-29-2006, 01:39 PM

All I do is post a clip and I'm still mouthy?:D

swingbuster

04-29-2006, 01:52 PM

Handling greater momentum without things breaking down is more difficult than handling lesser momentum the same way handling a Forumla One car is more difficult than a street car. If a kid can handle a big stride, then fine.

It is interesting the note that no stride hitters get fooled with offspeed too. Fooled is fooled as they misjudge the focus of the swing too. A no strider mistiming a change up or a chase CB looks pretty bad to me.

ssarge

04-29-2006, 01:53 PM

Help us learn, Donny. Seriously.

If you've got a better way to teach developing hitters, I'm all ears. You've apparently had some success w/ a group of kids. It seems most of us work with a broader set of kids, male and female, of varying skill levels, varying degrees of athletecism, and have somehow had different results than you apparently have had. This isn't a philosophical argument for many of us - it is an issue framed by a lot of hard experience about what sequence works to best develop hitters.

Which means my beliefs have evolved, obviously. No secret there. And I'm open to that continuing. But you have provided NO persausive evidence that what you reference works. It's a lot to take on faith, especially having tried many of the things you advocate in the past. And finding that much of it results in a INITIALLY better looking result (at least w/out video) - but a result that is not necessarally more efficient for the long term.

You promised clips over 3 weeks ago.

What happened? Whether or not to post clips is anyone's private decision, but you said they were forthcoming, which would seem to put it in the public domain.

Also, do you have clips of your kids using your product? MIght as well talk about that, too.

Regards,

Scott

ssarge

04-29-2006, 02:06 PM

It is interesting the note that no stride hitters get fooled with offspeed too. Fooled is fooled as they misjudge the focus of the swing too. A no strider mistiming a change up or a chase CB looks pretty bad to me.

You seem to take leaps of dialog in your brain that the others of us are not privy to.

You are right, non-siders get fooled off-speed. Possibly even more often than striders, as a matter of fact.

I can't imagine anyone arguing this.

And I don't think anyone did.

So what am I missing that you would change the subject to this line of reasoning?

Were there posts deleted? It's like arguing eho makes the best pizza and having someone just blurt out "coke is better than pepsi!" Huh?

FWIW, I have two observations:

1) A strider who is fooled off-epeed lunges. A non-strider who is fooled off-speed slows to salvage contact. So it's different manifestations. Both are less than ideal. But the benefits to the kid who has learned to rotate efficiently is a GREAT compensator. And then point about timing is NOT lost on anyone participating here. Which makes it pretty damned persausive that people advocating no-stride in the developmental phases is a worthwhile tradeoff to learn to rotate efficiently. It shows PRIORITY in the developmental process.

2) Leading to my second point - Again, I'm anxious to see your video. My belief is that MOST who stride are inefficient hitters, even if they LOOK more conventional. I would assume we all would agree that you HAVE to learn to rotate efficiently w/ pelvic region and torso to be a great hitter. And if you take away the stride, you force a kid to learn to do this,

That is NOT to say striders won;t also learn.

It IS to say MOST won't learn, and of those who don't many will compensate by using their feet and legs.

And as I indicated on eTeamZ FP, it is fairly easy to "proove." Put balls on a Tee to take away the timing element. Let the hitter who strides swing WITHOUT a stride. I beleive you will see a fall off in performance, because he doesn;t know how to develop momentum, just to transfer weight. And he can;t efficiently power his hips w/out opening the front foot to jump start the process.

Now add the stride to the hitter who has learned to rotate using no-stride mechanics. I DO NOT believe performance will fall off. In fact, you might see a slight increase. And timing could well improve against live pitching.

Because the hitter has learned to rotate efficiently. Which is JOB ONE for a young hitter in the development process. The rest is refinement.

But I could be wrong about any number of things. Obviously, if I thought I was, I'd change my mind. Or maybe that isn't obvious to others. No one here really knows me well. Perhaps I'm wed to dogma and not persuadable.

Except you know what? I'm not. I'm DEFINITELY open to better ideas.

But I'm also not easily persuaded, because this MATTERS to me.

And I'm still anxious to see the clips you promised.

Regards,

Scott

swingbuster

04-29-2006, 02:12 PM

It is interesting the note that no stride hitters get fooled with offspeed too.

Scott,

When I taught no stride we got just as fooled. When your swinging at arm action and the ball is not in relationship to that arm action the brain is fooled.

My son hit CB's better when I gave him his front foot back as it could take him to the ball.

He hit really fast FB down better from no stride but the FB up could make you look late. The problem we had was we did not know what was coming.

Overall, this year we have done better without dictating stride. I have found it better to dictate load and let stride do what it wants. We have done better hand loading and shifting and making solid contact to all fields using these kids athletism.

Sandman has the films and he had to convert them and will post them in his time not mine. He does that for free to help promote the game and enhance these sites. Looking at the footage the most striking thing that I hope he can show was the hand set and the effect that it had maintaining the scaps in a loaded position going to foot plant

The product is doing very well thanks.

Also, do you have clips of your kids using your product?

Peavy has some footage on his site using the product with his bottom hand drills and I ship them to Epsteins clinics nationwide to teach horizontal connections

Nyman's attack on-line of all training aids set up a high level of cautiousness in that area. There is nothing to gain doing that here and you know that.

I get accused of spamming if I mention it on hitting discussion site so I do not. I prefer to talk teaching style and read about teaching style.

But I could be wrong about any number of things. Obviously, if I thought I was, I'd change my mind. Or maybe that isn't obvious to others. No one here really knows me well. Perhaps I'm wed to dogma and not persuadable.

We all get married to what we see work and what we have the most ability to teach personally. If your daughter is playing well and handling the strike zone then you would be foolish to change anything.

Because the hitter has learned to rotate efficiently. Which is JOB ONE for a young hitter in the development process. The rest is refinement.

Don't disagree...we use the HBH to reduce/ eliminate stride so kids do rotate. We keep the lead elbow behind the belly button to connect bottom hand and tell them to let the rotation bring the bat around. That is in the instructions. It works well. Unlike Steve, we sell nothing off these sites.. the posse would make sure of that because we have a different teaching style.

If you want me to give my opinion about teaching rotation it is this.....

Kids rotate when what they are swinging is moving in a circular pattern. Rotation is work done is a circle. They learn to rotate ONLY when what they are swinging is moving in a circular pattern. Rotation of the hips potentiates things that are rotating in a circular path and can in no way learn to turn or cause something to move in a circular path if the object to be turned is not inclined to turn in a circular path.

Since I believe that, I teach things that make the shoulders load and turn so the hips can help them turn better and harder.

Everybody must believe something and that is what I happen to believe. Doesn't make me right or wrong I guess or you either.

Mark H

04-29-2006, 02:25 PM

swingbuster

04-29-2006, 02:54 PM

I'm not talking about a fooled batter.

Mark consider it a new thread or just a thought I had ...pardon me. Sometimes I will be reading something and have an epiphany. I will look back on our playing time and say" you know we looked just as stupid on chase CB not matter how we hit"

ssarge

04-29-2006, 08:32 PM

Peavy has some footage on his site using the product with his bottom hand drills and I ship them to Epsteins clinics nationwide to teach horizontal connections

Nyman's attack on-line of all training aids set up a high level of cautiousness in that area. There is nothing to gain doing that here and you know that.

I get accused of spamming if I mention it on hitting discussion site so I do not. I prefer to talk teaching style and read about teaching style.
Fair enough, I understand that.

Looking forward to seeing the clips whenever Mike gets around to posting them. I assumed you just used a digital camera and captured to the PC.

I have found it better to dictate load and let stride do what it wants. We have done better hand loading and shifting and making solid contact to all fields using these kids athletism.
What do you do if athletecism is more modest?

If your daughter is playing well and handling the strike zone then you would be foolish to change anything.
I actually don't think you have seen my daughter's swing yet. A good swing, I mean. I did post two clips demonstrating rather poor - for her - swings (and explaining why they were poor). But the REASON I posted those swings was one was an outside corner pitch, and one was inside corner. From the same pitcher in the same game. With basically the same results.

I think she can get a LOT better than she is now. And I think she needs to. And SOME of what you advocate will be among the mechanical changes we implement. But I think those changes have a chance to WORK because she has learned to rotate, and learned not to push. She wasn't particularly good at either 2 years ago.

But Donny please don't make the presumption that my hitting philosophy is based on what works for my daughter. I do work w/ more female hitters than male, but work w/ dozens of hitters pretty closely. And they aren't clones. I think I may have more collected data than you are assuming.

Everybody must believe something and that is what I happen to believe. Doesn't make me right or wrong I guess or you either.
Fair enough. And said w/ a slightly less strident :waving tone, easy to accept.

Regards,

Scott