Phenomenal Albert Pujols

[biocat777]

Can anyone on this board post the four homeruns that A. Pujols hit (in consecutive at-bats) the last couple of days??

I gotta believe that there would be some GREAT food for thought, discussion and learning in those clips....

Steve (Biocat777)

[ssarge]

Yeah, 10 HRs and 20 RBIs in the first 14 games.

He may be doing some things right.


For that matter, what about Shelton?

The A's shut him down last night, but he is Triple Crown at the moment.


Pretty sure no one is going to accuse him of juicing either - at least not w/ a straight face.

Regards,

Scott

[Ifubuildit]

I have watched this on TV every chance I have had and it is a wonderful display of hitting. The first thing that came to mind was Mr. October. Would love to put their swings side by side just to compare.

Elliott.

[ShawnB]

I posted two HR by Pujols, One is from early in the year and one from his 4 HR in a roll.

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/Pujols.mov

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/hr260fps.mov

Both clips are at 60 fps. My reason for posting the clips was to show how long he keps the hands cocked and creates separation (bat lag). And that it wasn't THT that makes a great swing, it's keeping the bat back and creating separation between the hands and the lower body.

[GFK]

I posted two HR by Pujols, One is from early in the year and one from his 4 HR in a roll.

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/Pujols.mov

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/hr260fps.mov

Both clips are at 60 fps. My reason for posting the clips was to show how long he keps the hands cocked and creates separation (bat lag). And that it wasn't THT that makes a great swing, it's keeping the bat back and creating separation between the hands and the lower body.

ShawnB, is there any way you could post or link to these clips in a different format. I have little luck with quicktime.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Both clips are at 60 fps. My reason for posting the clips was to show how long he keps the hands cocked and creates separation (bat lag). And that it wasn't THT that makes a great swing, it's keeping the bat back and creating separation between the hands and the lower body.

Not to mention him staying flat through contact, getting great backspin and carry.

[Ohioteamz]

ShawnB, is there any way you could post or link to these clips in a different format. I have little luck with quicktime.

GFK you might want to get that fixed because quicktime allows better frame by frame analysis.

[Comm]

Just slide the tool bar, frame-by-frame, at the bottom.

[Comm]

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/Pujols.mov

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/hr260fps.mov


Nice use of Top Hand Torque in both swings.

[Mark H]

Nice use of Top Hand Torque in both swings.

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I do love a new student with enthusiasm.

Tom, do you see tht?

[tom.guerry]

Yes-

Pujols analysis to follow.

xfactor/xfactor stretch too.

inward turn-hip cok-hand cok-rubber band winding-drop and tilt-swing.

great high ball hitting set-up.

mlb high level swing optimized for quickness/minimizing timing error

[swingbuster]

BHUT/ THT

There is not THT without BHT...torque is a force applied to an object in opposite directions.

It takes two hands and both elbows working in relative opposition. THe lead elbow starts down and moves up and the rear elbow starts up and moves down.

The hands apply a force to the bat handle that breaks inertia and sends the barrel into the back side of the swing arc.

This is a huge part of the HIGHEST level swing ( my new designation)
Since Ted Williams, Aaron, Bonds, Ruth to name a few did it then we need to lose the high level swing in favor of the highest level swing

You teach all the high level swings you want and paste your clips to support them.

I will not have these hitting greats in the mix so in the future I will reference the very best that ever played the game and you can talk about the rest. If your going to work at something you should be like the very best.

If you want steroid Mcquire and Conseco then post them and swing like that and buy your kid some Winstrol and some weights.

[Mark H]

Tom,

Yes? He comes to a complete or near complete stop as far as hand/arm action after setting up the angles and then rotates into a great hook. If what you are calling tht doesn't result in bathead movement directly into a swing, it's of no more use than taking a running start before a race, then stopping at the starting line and taking off again. I see why SB wants to separate himself and his BHUT. Once again, you see a red sky and I see a blue sky.

SB,

You see tht in Pujols' swing?

[Ohfor]

This is a huge part of the HIGHEST level swing ( my new designation)
Since Ted Williams, Aaron, Bonds, Ruth to name a few did it then we need to lose the high level swing in favor of the highest level swing

You teach all the high level swings you want and paste your clips to support them.

I will not have these hitting greats in the mix so in the future I will reference the very best that ever played the game and you can talk about the rest. If your going to work at something you should be like the very best.

If you want steroid Mcquire and Conseco then post them and swing like that and buy your kid some Winstrol and some weights.

TRANSLATION: I can't find many clips of players that do what I teach so I'm going to ignore all the others...........even the MLB players of today which include many future HOFers, and just talk about those few that do what I think is right.

And in so doing, I'm going to teach this very high level "add on" that the 5% or less do, to 12 year olds. I'm going to ignore the underlying rotation and posture and connection issues. I'm just going to teach BHUT. Surely, if Aaron could do it a 12 year old can.

Then, I'm going to point to a kid on my team that is a good hitter and say "SEE WHAT I DID".

[swingbuster]

the 5% or less

Now you get it..thats how few are taught to hit right. That is why 1 per
300, 000 LL play at a " the highest level" or have " the highest level swing"

It is quite logical when you thnk about it. Ted never told us how he learned as a boy and then switched over to the " good stuff" Neither did Hank hummmmm......

The hell of it is ...what if I am right?

[swingbuster]

You see tht in Pujols' swing?

Mark H..

Maybe this goes to the root of the original Set-Pro / Mankin debate
( stalemate) that derailed progress. I see what happens and have experienced what happens now. So , for me, I need no convincing. I will never teach anything other than what I teach based on what I see as results. You must understand, I have JV kids having success too.

I see a starting point ( hands set) that makes it highly probable for the bottom hand to connect when the rotation starts.

I see the bat make a sharp acceleration into the back of the swing arc.

I see relative elbow position changes only possible when the relationship is rear up and lead low.

I see bat plane transition as a boost to the swing...there is no doubt in my mind.

I have never thought Jack was right if he said the top hand pulled the bat back in a conscience sense.

[chesspirate]

I see a starting point ( hands set) that makes it highly probable for the bottom hand to connect when the rotation starts.

I see the bat make a sharp acceleration into the back of the swing arc.

I see relative elbow position changes only possible when the relationship is rear up and lead low.

I see bat plane transition as a boost to the swing...there is no doubt in my mind.

Almost sounds like what would happen if you set the angles right, adjusted posture correctly, and rotated.

[chesspirate]

I hate to say it but... we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing... ugh

[Steve Englishbey]

Swingbuster ,on the matter of tht, Shawn on his own website said it pretty well ----that tht does not exist and is not what is creating the momentum and force involved in quickly changing the direction of the knob. [He was always pretty skeptical I think ,but only recently has he fully realized this .]

I absolutely agree with his assessment here .It is very consistent with everything I know about the forces involved in swinging a bat.

JJA agrees. He is a scientist who certainly knows more than our resident philosopher king.Other scientific types agree. And there are no studies that I am aware of that would verify tht. [And you realize--- I hope-- ---that Tom Guerry is not a scientist and does not undertsand the forces at play ---he has been told this repeatedly by any number of people.]

You ,or anyone else cannot find a single scientific source to verify tht .

As A hitting instructor ,I cannot find any justification to attempting to "use the fingers of the back hand to pull back towards the catcher " to create batspeed or quickly change the direction of the bat.


The reason guys like Pujois change the direction quickly and powerfully----he does it better than most big league guys ----is because he is a big strong individual with a big strong body.

When Richard saw 4 big league hitters up close ---one of which was Albert ---I ask him ,"Did Pujois look alot bigger and stronger than the other guys when he swung?"

And he replied something to the effect that "Oh hell yes........he was unbelievably quicker and more powerful than those guys.

This is very similar to my thoughts of Ken Griffey ,and Alex Roriguez when I saw them in person some 7 years ago.

Guys like this are tremendously powerful -----and generate tremendous momentum developed thru the trunk [scapula complex included] ---and "expressed " thru the bathead [and that includes of course the bathead changing direction very quickly.

You cannot see this kind of physical prowess by sitting and staring at a computerand looking for "universal patterns."

And I can add that from a personal standpoint , hitting a ball over 300 feet with only the front arm is a pretty good indication that the "hand torque" factor is pretty much non-existent.

When I add both arms I hit balls 20 -35 ft. further [off a tee] . The added power comes from the back shoulder adding slightly greater force to the other shoulder [paired force of the scapula will create greater synergistic muscle action.]

The only thing the back hand arm would do would be to help stabilize the batpath [and help increase the isometric tension in the arm ----gripping will create tension all the way up the arm].

It's fine if you think of tht ----or better stated----if you use a "Ted Williams like" down to up kind of loading of the arms to create some kind of rythym and timing .

That CAN and WILL work for SOME hitters [no one has ever said otherwise--Paul Nyman himself has said that sometimes the best way to learn how to create a rotational pattern of bat and body is to start with the hands somewhat down------and used Moe Vaughn as an example of this kind of positioning at setup.


Thus, if I were you I would not be so inclined to sat that Tht is causing much of anything [except confusion , "fog"].

Simply put ,there is essentially nothing that you can find as a legitimate source that would in any manner justify a focus on tht ----as something that is THE KEY to a good swing.

Or something you should focus on as an instructor or hitter.


steve

[Ifubuildit]

Swing,

Your position on this is kind of like me saying that Satchel Paige should be the template by which all pitchers should pitch in MLB. There is a word out there called evolution. Ted was, and still is, a great measuring stick but is his the highest level swing? A good model, but are not all great hitters good models?

What about Cobb, Ruth, Mantel, Maris, Powell, Killebrew, Rose, Bench, Brett, Gwynn, and hundreds of those before and after Ted?

I might be inclined to say that Rose had the highest level swing based on result over his career. Would I be right?

This just doesnt hold water for me. Too much past, many present, and now future players to consider in the mix.

I respect your opinion, but it is just that and nothing more.

Elliott.

[tom.guerry]

Steve-

You are approaching the issue with your knob changing description

How does that knob change "best" happen (assume highlevel baseball swing is destination),why ?

Answer:Arm action is king,plane transition.

It's not just reaction to shoulders in the high level pattern.No other way to get coil position and dynamics for early batspeed late adjustability.

Arm action is king in BOTH throwing and hitting.Hitting is not so different becasue of its "reactive nature". The swing start early with inward turn with plenty of time to prepare for a quick well time execution with late adjustability.

[Mark H]

One, the arms don't have the power to accomplish what a hitter needs to accomplish. Two, if arm action is king why do you continue to push Mike arm action is a no teach Epstein. Three, weathervaning is invisible in MLB hitters. Four, why do I keep trying with you?

[Ifubuildit]

My daughter should be hitting like Crystal Bustos right now. I promise you she is not Tom. She has counter rotation in her swing. It leads to bat drag/lag. The arm is barring and she is late through the zone right now on pitchers that are 60 and above. She is hitting .320 right now. I can only imagine what it would be if she stayed connected with her swing.

Slower pitchers she drives the ball hard to Right Center field. Again, late through the zone. When it goes to left its because the shoulder opens up too fast and she throws her arms and hands at the ball. Its UGLY. Lots of long foul balls down the left field line. Also lots of weight over extended (Too much weight shift) to the front side of her swing.

When the swing is connected she goes on a hitting tear and it becomes a thing of wonder because it leads to multi hit games with doubles, triples, and home runs. It doesnt happen often enough, but this past summer it was fun to watch. 4 HR in 2 weeks.

It isnt the arms.

Elliott.

[swingbuster]

When Richard saw 4 big league hitters up close ---one of which was Albert ---I ask him ,"Did Pujois look alot bigger and stronger than the other guys when he swung?"

And he replied something to the effect that "Oh hell yes........he was unbelievably quicker and more powerful than those guys.

Ohfer over heard and is on record as quoting Pujols saying that his " hand set is the most important part of his swing"

Looking at his hand set it would seem they help him do some important things


You are approaching the issue with your knob changing description

Can somebody explain this clearly and anatomically what is involved to accomplish this?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Does nobody see a problem with comparing softball swings, to that of a major league hitter?

Every time I watch softball, then all have very quick "wristy" swings. Hmmm, maybe it's just me, nevermind.

[fungo22]

Arm action is king in BOTH throwing and hitting. Tom, help me understand why you would repeat your shibboleth in this context. You think Steve doesn't know your position, that he somehow overlooked the 738 times you have asserted this in the past year? Or you think simply by asserting it one more time, you will finally tip the scale and persuade Steve? Or you think that merely by asserting it over and over like a kind of one-track minded chant, our minds will somehow become numb and one day we'll wake up and say, "I'll be damned. Arm action is king in hitting as well as throwing. Wonder when that happened."

So far it ain't working with me. In fact I'm sort of leaning toward the notion that arm action isn't king in throwing.

[Comm]

" Arm action is King"? WTF! Ok, try punching a Boxing bag while just using your Arms. Try to do the same, but this time, rotate your shoulders, hips and drive your legs into the shot and see which one develops the most power.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Couldn't you just flip that example around and prove the other point? Hold your arm straight out to the side of the bag, and with no use of your arm/shoulder, you can't create enough torque to supply much power. They both need eachother imo, just seems it's a tug 'o' war on here about which one deserves more credit. Anything past little league, I think arms become very important in the day in/day out swing. :2cents:

[Comm]

No -- I am saying that it's the rotation of the Core that produces the power. Not arm and wrist action through the strike zone.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Right, I gotcha. I was just saying that if you held your arm straight out and rotated your core, there wouldn't be much power. In fact, I bet if you were to stand with you knees bent, and only used your shoulder/arm, you could supply much more than the other way around. Core is important, not disagreeing with that, but without the shoulder/arm, you got nuttin' imo.

Just saw your "make it easier" thread. Do you not consider the shoulder part of the arm :confused:

[Ohfor]

Ohfer over heard and is on record as quoting Pujols saying that his " hand set is the most important part of his swing
"
Buster,

Out of one side of your mouth, on another topic, you say "we should all take stock" and attempt to be more civil.

Then, out of the other side of your mouth, you intentionally misquote me by leaving out the important part of that statement.

Is it your goal to win people over with your "niceness" or "level headedness" while at the same time being totally dishonest?

The part you left out was..........Albert was talking about his hands....."while performing a perfect demonstration of scap loading".

He was holding his hands near his arm pit and saying "if I get my hands right here (or something to that effect while pinching his scaps together), then I know I'm set up right". And while saying this to John Mabry, Andy Van Slykes two kids, and others that I didn't recognize, he was demonstrating how to scap load.

Albert is no different from every other mlb player I've heard speak. They can do.....they can't teach.

I have a much easier time being civil when I'm debating with honest people.

[swingbuster]

"if I get my hands right here (or something to that effect) while pinching his scaps together, then I know I'm set up right".

You telling me that ALbert Pujols talked about " pinching his scaps together"??

You do have that in the quotes.

Albert is no different from every other mlb player I've heard speak. They can do.....they can't teach.

And you can't do and can teach...way to go Rich!

I have a much easier time being civil

Not possible. You like the dark side too much

[Ohfor]

The quote was accurate. The placement of the ")" was wrong. I have fixed it.

Now, for the important part of your post.....

No denial of misquoting.

No denial of misquoting intentionally.

No denial of his tactics which are present here, there and everywhere he goes.

No claim of honesty.

Just more taking of bits and pieces to support a viewpoint that has been proven wrong by video.

[Steve Englishbey]

I would only add [again] that the "action-perception" difference is common to all kinds of athletes at all levels.

Bonds thanks he swings down.

All Eric heard when he was in the big leagues was along the lines of ,swing down ,stay level,keep your shoulders levels,etc,etc.

When I got back into this stuff some 10 years ago,I thought that I [and other big league hitters] pivoted the back foot really hard to rotate.

I talked to a hitter-----a very good high school hitter------some time back about what he thought his weight distribution was at contact [he really knew how to shift well and I was curious what he thought about how he did it.]

He thought at contact he was at 70% on the back foot ---30% on the front.

[It was actually ,of course, much closer to the reverse of this.]


These are but a few examples as to why one should not be much guided by what athletes think they do [in terms of movement,loading , etc].

You cannot glean much useful information from listening to what they think do.

[As somewhat of an aside here,the really interesting question is more along the lines of "how is it that a guy like Eric ,for example, could hear "swing down" , use your hands ,etc etal----and end up doing essentially the opposite?"].

This is not a criticism of players. In terms of doing it ,they[elite athletes] are the smartest guys on the planet.

But as I continue to say,as regards the actual biomechanics and physiology of the swing process ,doing it ,teaching it , understanding it are three distinct modes of knowledge.

steve

[swingbuster]

You have me Rich....

Dishonest , low down, misleading, and out to get everybody and make their kids play badly.

:crazy

Steve...we have had some positive and informative exchanges ( for me anyway) I prefer this relationship and I appreciate it very much.

Donny

[dannyboy]

Sultan,

Does nobody see a problem with comparing softball swings, to that of a major league hitter?

I do.

They both need each other imo, …

Exactly. Could absolutely not agree more.

[Mark H]

Does nobody see a problem with comparing softball swings, to that of a major league hitter?

Every time I watch softball, then all have very quick "wristy" swings. Hmmm, maybe it's just me, nevermind.

There are more lousy swings in fp than in baseball. I put it down to females being more coachable and thus less immune to the non reality based swing training they both get.

To see high level female swings, check Siggy's site.

[wilson68]

Does nobody see a problem with comparing softball swings, to that of a major league hitter?

Every time I watch softball, then all have very quick "wristy" swings. Hmmm, maybe it's just me, nevermind.

It is those "wristy" swings that so many here are trying to get rid of. Two historical problems with fastpitch hitting, or so I gather, are that 'softball is different from baseball' and 'women are different from men'. Mostly used as justifications to not change or examine what is being done.

All my life I have heard what a low scoring game fastball is (yes, I am Canadian). But when I go watch the good men's teams play, I see a lot of balls leaving the park. When I walked into the Canadian Men's National's last year, Kitchener was down 2 or 3 runs and by the time I found a seat they were up by one.

Now when my dad played they used wooden bats and the balls were not so lively. But that is akin to baseball in Ty Cobb's day; split grips and poking it on the ground between the fielders. Then the balls perked up and Babe Ruth switched to the outfield.

[swingbuster]

Arm action is King"? WTF! Ok, try punching a Boxing bag while just using your Arms

COMM,

Using your arms only to hit the ball is not what he is saying. He is talking about a mechanism to time the upper and lower body to optimize segmentalization of the body parts. You late to a two year old party where 5000 pages have been written. You welcome of course but that is not what he is talking about at all.

[ssarge]

Wilson68:

The average D1 college FP softball game features 7 runs. Remember, that is in a 7 inning game.

The low-scoring perception is fueled by the College World Series, where the top half dozen of so pitchers have their way. At that level, the pitching really is rather special. But far from universal in the sport.

"You have to swing different in softball" WAS the mantra for years. For the reasons indicated. It was subtle sexism for one. More importantly, it was believed the pitching was too different, Mainly because of the riseball, which as it turns out doesn't really behave as people have just assumed it behaved, anyway.

The sport still has a ways to go to get hitting on track, but it is improving dramatically.

Interestingly, much of the hitting mechanics revolution is happening at the younger levels. It is the younger travel teams that are bringing in Englishbey, eyc. I believe this bodes well for the future of the sport as these hitters matriculate.

Best regards,

Scott

[Ifubuildit]

Everything you stated Scott is coming true. I was approached by an 8U select coach a couple of days ago to come out and give his team a hitting clinic. He wants to learn about rotational mechanics.

This is a team that belongs to an organization that for 10 years preached linear methods. It was a breath of fresh air in a close minded softball community. Coaches are starting to get on board.

Even more so when their star pitcher gets torn up by a rotational hitting team and they ask themselves what just happened? My pitcher was hitting her spots but it didnt matter. (Happened to the DD at the Ronald Mcdonald last year. My guess is the Englishbey method was the culprit ;) Not good but it happens to every pitcher)

That is when I really started paying attention more and taking more video at games. This team tore her up like no other since she had been pitching. She didnt give up any dingers but there were a lot of balls caught at the fence that night and many in the gaps. The whole lineup could hit and hit hard. Final score was 7-0 when it was over. DD never knew what hit her that night. Dad did.

That is when my investigation began and I found out about Steve E. I knew someone was teaching kids good mechanics down in Houston and I wanted to find out who it was and what they were teaching. That was the name that was tossed out to me by more than one coach. Steve hasnt heard this story.

I am now in the process of watching the videos. Some great information on them. I may need to be sworn into the posse after this weekend.

Elliott.

[Mark H]

COMM,

Using your arms only to hit the ball is not what he is saying. He is talking about a mechanism to time the upper and lower body to optimize segmentalization of the body parts. .

No, that's what YOU are talking about SB.

[wilson68]

Strangely, my earliest perceptions of fastpitch do not come from the women's game. My father was a pitcher and the little rural village I grew up in, and still live in, was a softball town. I didn't know women could play the sport decently until I was well into my teens. Didn't see NCAA games until we got a satellite dish. Fernandez was still at UCLA. I remember my dad's teams using wooden bats. But the hitting I see now in the best men's teams is aimed at power. Although they can still run, I always hated guys that were bigger than me and could outrun me. I haven't seen anyone hit since I found H-M last fall and so I look forward to getting out to some tournaments this year and watching with a different eye. It is significant that so many here are softball coaches/dads and I think it is because of Sultan's original post that softball swings have traditionally been bad.