Julio Franco

[jpenrod]

There has been some discussion on this board about admitting foriegn players to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, NY. This got me to thinking about other players that have served time in foriegn leagues and Mr. Franco came rushing to mind. IHe spent the 1995 and 1998 seasons in Japan with the Chiba Lotte Marines, then the 1999 season with the Tigres of the Mexican Legue, 2000 with the Samsung Lions of the Korean League and back to the Mexican league in 2001. In each of those seasons he faired well in the respective leagues never hitting much below .300 (he hit over .400 in Mexico) and everytime he returned to MLB and continued to hit well (not as well but good enough).

His current MLB stats include 2521 hits and a career .299 hitter. I can not help but wonder if Franco had stayed in MLB each of those 5 seasons instead of going abroad he may be much closer to 3000 hits and may have already been there.

Now I am not a "magical number" guy, but 3000 hits is hard to look beyond when considering HOF eligibility.With some of the push I have seen for foreign players (Ichiro and Oh jump to mind) and to count their stats from those leagues when considering HOF status I would think you would have to be fair and consider Franco's stats in foreign leagues too. Now I no that even those that want to look at what foreign players have done in their leagues they do not give a straight transfer so maybe someone can work up how Francos stats from Japan, Korea and Mexico transfer to MLB and post his "modified" stats.

All that being said, if the HOF does begin to admit Foreign players and consider the stats they compiled in other leagues would you consider Franco a HOFer.

[125osprey]

I had a chance to watch Franco in action at a Samsung Lions home game. As Franco was taking his position in the outfield my friends and I went nuts and started chanting "Julio! Julio! Julio!" Franco, with a broad smile on his face, turned around doffed his cap in acknowledgment. He looked like he was having fun. Not a big deal, of course, but to see someone of Franco's calibre (and fame) playing in Daegu, South Korea, was a lot of fun. I am glad he found his way back to the big leagues after his short sojourn on the peninsula.

[KCGHOST]

Simply an absurd idea.

[jalbright]

Certainly, it wouldn't bother me any assuming Franco's translated stats actually aided his cause (I can only help with Japan), but the truth is, the day that can happen is the day we have true acceptance of the principle that international play deserves consideration for the Hall. I don't see current Japanese players under say 36 years old getting in without a) coming to the States and b) performing at a star level for several seasons--at least not until that far away day is reached.

Jim Albright

[jpenrod]

Certainly, it wouldn't bother me any assuming Franco's translated stats actually aided his cause (I can only help with Japan), but the truth is, the day that can happen is the day we have true acceptance of the principle that international play deserves consideration for the Hall. I don't see current Japanese players under say 36 years old getting in without a) coming to the States and b) performing at a star level for several seasons--at least not until that far away day is reached.

Jim Albright

Jim, I was hoping you might get involved with this discussion. I feel you may be the best to give us some idea of how Francos stats translate to MLB stats. The thing is I have no clue if his translated stats would put him that close to 3000 hits or not. I just started thinking about it and thought it was a fun idea. I am not sure I would consider Franco a HOFer even with 3000 hits, but it is an interesting scenario.

[jalbright]

I'll try to do his Japanese seasons no later than the weekend (it's a busy time for me right now). But I don't have the data to do the other leagues, which will still leave some real gaps (heck, I don't even have Franco's stats in those leagues, though I'd guess somebody could help that much.

Jim Albright

[jpenrod]

Simply an absurd idea.

Thanks for the valuable input to the thread KCGHOST. As usual your insight is on a level of it's own.

Care to explain why this is an absurd idea?
in 1994 Franco hit .319 with 138 hits. in 1996 he hit .322 with 139 hits. In 1997 he hit .270 with 116 hits, his next full ML season (2001) he hit .284 with 96 hits. I am not really sure why it is so ubsurd that had Franco been in the ML those seasons (and really there is no reason he shouldn't have been other than his age) he would have averaged 100 hits each of those 5 seasons. Had he done that he would currently been sitting at 2995 hits today.

Maybe you just think it is absurd to think a 3000 hit player would get serious consideration simply for the fact he had 3000 hits. That I can understand.

[CanadianFan]

Hellllllllllllllllll no. Please, the HOF is watered down enough as it is.

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

I'd vote for Julio. 3000 hits is an automatic ticket. I hope he hangs on for a few more years, and builds more on his MLB stats.

[KingJ]

3000 hits is an automatic ticket.

But it took him 3000 seasons to get there.

[2Chance]

I agree with KC Ghost.

The only reason I dignified this with a response at all was that somewhere I said that if he gets 3,000 hits he deserves consideration, then went on to point out how long it has been since he has had even 100 hits in a season (1997, I think) and the fact that he will ADMIT to being 47 years old.

Granted, even at his age (whatever it is), Julio is a good player. He has even had a few really good seasons, as jpenrod just pointed out. Nobody is picking up Franco as an old curiosity.

Even if he catches Pete Rose at age 67, he has never been one of the top 20 players in the league, and has not been the best player on his own team. So that's a firm no.

[leecemark]

--Why was Franco playing in Japan and Mexico? It couldn't have been because no MLB team was interested in having him on their roster could it? It may well be that somebody should have found a spot for him, but being banished from the bigs for half a decade is not something I consider a plus in building a Hall of Fame resume.

[jpenrod]

--Why was Franco playing in Japan and Mexico? It couldn't have been because no MLB team was interested in having him on their roster could it? It may well be that somebody should have found a spot for him, but being banished from the bigs for half a decade is not something I consider a plus in building a Hall of Fame resume.

Actually if you look at his stats just before being banished from the bigs and being readmitted there is not a large change. primarily I believe no team wanted to take a chance on him because of his age not because of his ability. I am not saying that playing in those leagues is enough of a reason to consider him, but if you want to start considering the stats of guys like Ichiro and Oh then don't you also have to consider the stats for Franco and other players. I understand the differences between Ichiro, Oh and Franco but you can not apply this selectively can you?

[leecemark]

--Oh was the greatest player in Japanese history by a wide margin. Ichiro won 7 straight Japanese batting titles and then came to the states and won two more, plus an MVP. Franco has never been close to the player they are.
--Dave Kingman and Babe Ruth both hit alot of home runs. We shouldn't get all selective and talk about just one of them as a Hall of famer:D .

[Captain Cold Nose]

If we (or even the voters) can't be selective about who makes the Hall of Fame, what is the point? HOF critera/selection must be selective.

[jpenrod]

You guys miss my point I am not saying the Hall should not be selective, Of course they should be. I have never even said that Julio Franco should be in the HOF with modified stats. all I am saying is that if we want to start applying some sort of modifications for players that played in the Japanese leagues shouldn't it be across the board? If you apply the same modifications to Franco's stats playing in the same league that Oh and Ichiro played in (and some sort of modification to the mexican and Korean leagues) he is very close to 3000 ( I think, though I could be wrong). How do you justify that we should count player A's stats from this league but not player B's stats? that is what I mean by applying the rules selectively. Now if you modify Francos stats the same way people want to modify Ichiros stats or Oh's stats and you still say he is not a HOFer then so be it. I just think it makes an interesting scenario.

[leecemark]

--The Korean league is at least as far behind Japanese ball as the JLs are behind MLB. The Mexican League is also a very weak league. Hall of famers don't find themselves exiiled to those kind of leagues.

[yanksfan80]

Even if Franco got his 3000 hits, I don't think he would be in the HOF. If Franco hadn't come back to the US to play these last few years, he would absolutely not be inducted and the way I look at it, I don't think these last few seasons tipped him over the edge over the other active players who have had better careers and stronger stats in fewer seasons.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Does Franco, as an MLB player, have a better case than, say, Rusty Staub, another guy who had a long career overall, was a very good player at his best, and collected some nice counting stats?

[Brooklyn]

I'd give Staub the slight edge over Franco, but niether is even remotely close, IMO.


Staub has the ink advantage 4/89 to 5/59, but none of those are anywhere near elite
Niether player was ever really considered to have an MVP type season, as evident by the voting. Staub received votes 7 times, but only 1 top 10 (a top 5), and Franco only received votes 3 times and one top 10
Staub is ahead of Franco on most couting stats and SLG, Franco is significanlty higher in BA and just edges him out in OBP.
The biggest advantages for Franco were his spped (273 SB) and his position. Middle infielders are more valuable than corner outfielders


this is pretty close, but I'd give the edge to Staub. However, neither should be in HOF conversations. They both are in the "quantity over quality" category. A good measuring stick of this is where they rank on games played / AB's vs. other lists. Staub is 11th in games played and 30th in ABs. The only lists he makes the top 100 on are hits (53) and RBI (47th). Franco is 78th in games played and 88th in ABs. The only list he makes the top 100 on are hits (78). So they both accumulated stats, but it took them a long time to do it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Thank you, Brooklyn. You pretty much have shown why Franco is not a HOF'er. His MLB numbers don't warrant it. And what he did in Japan isn't comparable to what Oh and Ichiro accomplished in Japan. I won't bother with Korea and Mexico because I've yet to hear a compelling argument those are as good as Japanese or even Cuban leagues. Combining two less-than-HOF careers makes up a less-than-HOF career.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Hellllllllllllllllll no. Please, the HOF is watered down enough as it is.
Yes, the HoF has been watered down for years. And there are plenty of HoFers that were far worse players than Franco. But I still say no to Franco for the HoF.

[jalbright]

I'll clarify my initial post in this thread to start. I can't oppose the idea that has been put forward here, but that doesn't mean I'm advocating its use. A major reason for this stance is that Franco wasn't subject to an exclusion on any basis except his perceived value given his age, rather than what Oh or Ichiro were subject to. I can't deny the argument that if we allow Franco this loophole, what about doing major league equivalents for Rickey Henderson and others who went to the minors for reasons very similar to why Franco went to these international leagues?

However, let's look at Franco in Japan, where he was a !B-DH:

Year.....G.....AB.....H.....2B..3B..HR..BB.....avg ......obp.....slg
1995...158...591...168...31...6....8...60...0.285. ..0.351...0.395
1998...157...584...158...32...4...13..66...0.270.. .0.344...0.404

I don't think many 1B-DH's in their mid thirties are going to get a chance to ring up these numbers--they're just not good enough unless there's an injury problem or the like. Personally, I don't think either of these years should count even if you are willing to deal with every case like Franco's.

Jim Albright

[NOMAR22]

--The Korean league is at least as far behind Japanese ball as the JLs are behind MLB. The Mexican League is also a very weak league. Hall of famers don't find themselves exiiled to those kind of leagues.

http://www.salondelafama.com.mx/salondelafama/trono/alfasf.asp?x=23

Monford "Monte" Irvin
Contratado por los Azules del Veracruz en 1942, impresionó profundamente a los seguidores de la Liga Mexicana por su tremendo poder ofensivo, que lo llevara a conquistar el título de bateo con el altísimo porcentaje de .397 y el de jonrones, con 20. Cubrió la segunda base, posición que nunca había desempeñado, y lo hizo bien. Nunca volvió a jugar en nuestro país.

A los 30 años de edad, rota la barrera que existía para los jugadores negros en las Ligas Mayores, debutó en 1949 con los Gigantes de Nueva York, club en el que brilló intensamente, figurando, incluso, como cuarto bat algunas temporadas. En 1956 pasó a los Cachorros de Chicago, siendo este su último año en la gran carpa. En ocho años en las Ligas Mayores bateó .293; su puesto titular fue el jardín izquierdo, aunque también desempeñó el primer cojín, y en siete juegos la tercera base.

En 1951 fue campeón de carreras producidas de la Liga Nacional, con los Gigantes. Participó en las Series Mundiales de 1951 y 1954. En aquella, además de haber sido el mejor bateador con .458 de promedio, consumó espectacular robo de home en el primer inning del primer juego, contra los Yanquis, jugada que no se registraba en el clásico desde 1928.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Translated:


Playing with the Veracruz Blues in 1942, deeply made an impression to the followers of Mexican League as a fine hitter, winning the batting title at .397 and hitting 20 home runs. He played second base, which he had never played before, and played it well. That was his last stint in Mexico.
At age 30, made it in MLB, made debut in 1949 with the New York Giants . In 1956 joined the Cubs, his last year. In eight years in MLB he batted 293; he played left field, although he also played first, and in seven games third base.
In 1951 won the NL pennant, with the Giants. He participated in the World-Series of 1951 and 1954. In that, in addition to to have been the best batter with an average of .458 he stole home in first inning of the first game, against the Yankees, something not done since 1928.

[leecemark]

--Thanks for the translation CCN:) . I got the point even without it though. Irvin played in the Mexican League and is a Hall of Famer. So did Josh Gibson and several other Negro Leaguers, but only because they were unfairly excluded from playing in the majors. Julio Franco was not excluded from the majors by discrimination, but because nobody thought he was a player who could help their team.

[jalbright]

The Mexican league before integration in the states is a very different animal than the same league after that time. Before MLB's integration, the Mexican league was a home for many top Negro League talents like Josh Gibson and Monte Irvin--but once integration came, that dissipated fairly quickly.

Jim Albright

[yankillaz]

Answer the Trivia: Which baseball player has lead at least 4 different leagues in batting?

Yup, Julio Franco.

No, i'm not starting a case for Franco to the Hall, but this thread got me thinking. Julio Franco came up to the big leagues in the same year that other three stars: Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs and Don Mattingly. By 1994 when his career shifted between the majors and other international leagues, he bode well with the others. Remember something...he played second base, a position that requires less batting than 1b, 3b and of. He had a .300 BA and shifted to 1b for the first time in that season (Taking turns with dh). So we can assume that if he indeed played more season he colud've had a case.

Think of it, of the second baseman that played along with him during his prime, i only rank Ryne Sandberg and perhaps Lou Whitaker ahead of him.

That said, we also can make a case of his international numbers, that can prettily ease him to get to the HOF if they do account them with the MLB numbers. (Something similar can happen to Ichiro when he retires.

But the strongest case, and perhaps the reason why i voted him in, wasbecause of all the records he's on his way to set. If he gets a hit, a homerun, anything...he'll be the oldest to accomplish it. Pretty much like what happened with Satchel Paige.

[Lina]

I understand making 3000 hits in 15 years is better than doing it in 20 years.

However, is it really a disadvantage that he is doing what he's doing at the age of 47? It's not like he is a disabled person but obviously it is something someone else couldn't do for a long long time. I'd like to give him some credit for it even though it doesn't print out an automatic ticket to the hall. The question is, if his foreign effort plus ageless wolder can fill in the gap of about 400 hits. (or more if you think he need more.)

[Brooklyn]

No, it is not a disadvantage by itself, but you need to look at the whole body of work. I give him credit for staying around and being productive, but his best years are long behind him. If he is not a HOFer now, playing part time and getting 200 or so ABs per year for even 5 more years is not going to put him over. Impressive, yes. HOF differntiating, no.

[Boogiechillen]

Julio deserves to be in the Hall. Great second baseman. In 800 less at bats, he has more hits and RBI's than Joe Morgan. He also has a lifetime ave about 30 points higher. Also scored comparable runs and has more hits and RBI's and a higher ave than Sandberg. I'd also be interested to know how many HOFers have 274 stolen bases. I remember seeing Franco play in Reading in 1981. It's truly amazing that he's still in the bigs and doing well. If he stayed in the majors for the four years he was abroad, he'd be a lock for the Hall.

[SABR Matt]

As much as I like Franco as a player...I see no case for his entrance in the hall. I have him as a SS BTW, not a 2B...and he's 39th by the GI method among SSs...good contact hitter...great longevity...not a lot of other skills.

[125osprey]

--The Korean league is at least as far behind Japanese ball as the JLs are behind MLB. The Mexican League is also a very weak league. Hall of famers don't find themselves exiiled to those kind of leagues.


I talked to a couple of North American pitchers playing in South Korea for the LG club and they both agreed that the KBL is about the equivalent of Double 'A'' ball.

[SABR Matt]

That's about right.

Korea is roughly AA

Cuba is erratic with some clubs and players being All-Star major leaguers and some being college teams and barely JV players which is what you'd expect to happen in an island country with a very small population.

Japan is AAAA (if AAA is a 90 and MLB is a 100, the NPB is 95)

The Mexican league is A+/AA-

[baseballPAP]

I have Franco getting in, just barely. However, I should point out that that is with the weak players that are already in. If it was my HOF, I'd have a lot fewer guys, and he wouldn't be all that close.

As a SS he was barely average. As a second baseman he started out pretty well,but faded fast. As a 1Bman, he really has never had the pop to make himself a good one. Great contact hitter, strikes out a little too much, walks a fair amount too. Speed was great until 1991, but still hit into a ton of double plays because he tried to pull the outside pitch all the time. Overall, if I rated his entire skill set on a 1-100 scale (I do that a lot), he'd rate out somewhere in the 65 range. He loses out in a lot of the public opinion because he wasn't able to stay in the MI long enough, and most remember him by now as the ancient part time 1Bman.

[Naliamegod]

Even with adjusted stats, he is still not a HoF to me. Outside of his hits, there is nothing even remotely close to being even a borderline HoF candidate.

[Rose4theHall]

you guys are being too finicky about stats in this case. Character actually counts in the official HOF-voting guidelines and the fact that Julio is playing for the love of the game, the game that didnt want him at its highest level and sent him all around the world where he could still put up good numbers, says volumes about him as a person. Here is a guy who simply loves to play and puts in 100x times the effort guys 20 years younger than him have to because he knows it could end at any day, its extraordinary. Plus, how about playing pro ball for 25-30 years and not really ever getting hurt? (1992 noted) Since 03 his OPS hasnt gone too far below .800 either, theres lots of perfectly healthy able bodied guys 20 years younger than him who cant hit like that.

Even though he is as of today 475 hits away from 3000 and prob wont get there, Im saying we put him in for playing under different circumstances and being a tremendous ambassador for the game.

I mean, you guys could think outside of the box, for once.

[Naliamegod]

There are plenty of guys who play just for the love the game. There is nothing special about Franco other then he's still a useful player in his mid-40s.

[The Dude]

There are plenty of guys who play just for the love the game. There is nothing special about Franco other then he's still a useful player in his mid-40s.


You say it like it's not even special. How many MLers have played 20+ years to the age of 47 (or older) and been half as succesful as Julio Franco has been? In the 100+ year history of the AL, NL, NA, FL, etc. How many? I dare say not many at all.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You say it like it's not even special. How many MLers have played 20+ years to the age of 47 (or older) and been half as succesful as Julio Franco has been? In the 100+ year history of the AL, NL, NA, FL, etc. How many? I dare say not many at all.
Special sure? HOF worthy, no.
He's a part-time player. Racking up counting numbers as a part-time player does not equate to a HOF'er.

[Fuzzy Bear]

From 1983 to 1991, Franco was a truly great player, a middle infielder, and the most underrated player in baseball.

There are players that have gone into the HOF on such a 9 year stretch alone.

Franco's career is one of the most truncated careers in baseball history. 9 years as a top middle infielder, then an injury, than a DH. From the right of the defensive spectrum to the farthest left.

I don't want to treat Franco as a 3K guy; he was out of the bigs for a while, in part, because no MLB team thought he was worth a regular spot. He HAS retained his ability, however, and retention of ability is ONE of the marks of a great player.

My position on Franco is simple: If he stays in the bigs long enough to get 3K hits, he'll get my support. Short of that, no way. And I doubt he'll get there.