Bat Quickness vs Bat Speed

[egvfastpitch]

I have been studying the hitting techniques of Englishbey and had lurked on HM.org prior to its' closing.

Reading some discussion and responses to such, I have wondered about elements of the swing that can be considered the same or at the least cause and effect components that can't be separated. Using PCR, can a bat's speed be influenced beyond the quickness of the bat that a batter rotates into a pitch? Consider that I set up the "box", tilt on the pitch location and turn as one unit. Can I further increase bat speed beyond the quickness I generate into the pitch?

Taking two of my players, one using Englishbey type PR and one using Epstein heel drop-counter rotation and swing initiation, and placing against a tarp, the PCR player wins hands down. We simply drop a softball as a timing mechanism. When it hits the floor, players swing. Coaches look for any forward momentum prior to ball hitting and disqualify those who start early.

I'll would bet, but can't back up with empirical data, that the Epstein swing produces batspeed while Englishbey's swing is much quicker into the zone. Batting results, comparing this year from last, on my HS aged daughter shows that going the PCR way was a very wise choice indeed. She still does not have complete connectivity, but much better than before and is much happier for it.

[bigdaddy]

There's a give and take between bat speed and swing quickness. As one goes up the other goes down. When you look at "elite" slowpitch hitters they generate a great deal of bat speed happy to sacrifice swing quickness because of the speed of the pitch. MLB hitters generate less bat speed, but have greatly increased swing quickness. Again this is necessary because of the pitching speed. Another thing quickness adds is the ability to wait a little longer which allows you to read pitches and adjust when you are fooled. So I will take increased swing quickness any day.

Keith

[ShawnB]

I think it is interesting to compare Epstein, separation to PCR body rotating as a unit.

Contact hitters by enlarge do not have the separation that power hitters have, let's say compared to Pujols.

Contact hitters hands and swing go forward with the first movement of the body and usually they have a stronger top hand. Every PCR hitter I've seen tend to get the hands moving forward ahead of the hips or rotate like a solid block. It always looks muscled up to me and not very fluid. This is from the swings that have seen posted.

Epstein on the other hand is geared for power hitting. Power hitters create separation between body parts and don't swing as a single unit (connection). Power hitters create bat lag and the arms follow the rotating body parts. The lag system works to transfer momentum from body part to body part. The connection theory seems to focus on everything turning together as a unit.

Turning as a unit would affect the transfer of momentum from one body part to the next, thus affecting the whip principle. Besides momentum transfer in a sequential fashion, there is also the stretch reflex which works side by side with momentum transfer and the lag system.

So basically, taken literally one would be a singles type of swing and the other would be a power swing. The top hitters have both lag and connection. Most of the lag is created in the bat staying behind the shoulders.

Now no one preaching PCR will say they don't create separation. Just like Epstein would say the hands are connected to rotation. But' in the clips I've seen of hitters trying create connection they look like a stiff block of wood and everything tends to turn as a unit.

Like I said and interesting comparison taking either side literally.

[Ohfor]

I think it is interesting to compare Epstein, separation to PCR body rotating as a unit.

Contact hitters by enlarge do not have the separation that power hitters have, let's say compared to Pujols.

Contact hitters hands and swing go forward with the first movement of the body and usually they have a stronger top hand. Every PCR hitter I've seen tend to get the hands moving forward ahead of the hips or rotate like a solid block. It always looks muscled up to me and not very fluid. This is from the swings that have seen posted.

Epstein on the other hand is geared for power hitting. Power hitters create separation between body parts and don't swing as a single unit (connection). Power hitters create bat lag and the arms follow the rotating body parts. The lag system works to transfer momentum from body part to body part. The connection theory seems to focus on everything turning together as a unit.

Turning as a unit would affect the transfer of momentum from one body part to the next, thus affecting the whip principle. Besides momentum transfer in a sequential fashion, there is also the stretch reflex which works side by side with momentum transfer and the lag system.

So basically, taken literally one would be a singles type of swing and the other would be a power swing. The top hitters have both lag and connection. Most of the lag is created in the bat staying behind the shoulders.

Now no one preaching PCR will say they don't create separation. Just like Epstein would say the hands are connected to rotation. But' in the clips I've seen of hitters trying create connection they look like a stiff block of wood and everything tends to turn as a unit.

Like I said and interesting comparison taking either side literally.

Please show me a good mlb hitter that isn't PCR and is Epstein.

Take your time.

It's simply amazing how many of the rejects like to comment on things they have little or no knowledge of.

[chesspirate]

Just because it is easy to name (PCR) does not mean it is easy to understand.

Each facet is simply stated yet complex as hell in reality.

Oversimplification of the term PCR equating swing quickness and leaving out batspeed is a total misnomer. I'm not saying that it is the best way of producing bat head speed but to say to say that as quickness increases, batspeed decreases is somewhat misleading and for some people (younger hitters especially) totally wrong

[Steve Englishbey]

I absolutely agree with everything that Chesspirate stated.

And I would add that only the very best hitters in the world ,ie , those elite hitters that combine power and efficiency [power and high average] ,are truly optimizing segmental differentials.They are better even than most at the big league level.

And I would argue that this is at least in part because of their tremendous abilty to load and control the pelvic action ---without which they could not create the kind of separation that essentially only hitters at this level effectively create.


I would also argue that the abilty to optimally link relatively large segmental differentials [separation] is a function of very high-level "reactive strength ."
[Which would be a function of things like rate of force capability ,eccentric stength , tendon strength, muscle "stiffnerss", etc.].

Using a term like "stretch reflex" in this context is a relatively superficial explanation [at best] of what really should be understood as very powerful and efficient "strech-shortening " or reactive strength capability.

Stretch reflex activity is a very normal and naturally occuring physiological occurance in all kinds of movement from all kinds of people.

As opposed to very high -level "reactive strength " capability---which very very few athletes that I see at the high school level down [and this would espcially apply to baseball and softball hitters.]

[And,as an aside, I would also point out that though the term "strech reflex " is commonly used by many to explain the potentiation of rapid movement , it is not entirely clear that this is in fact the case [see for ex. "The Mechanics and Energetics of the Stretch-Shorteninhg Cycle " Journal of Applied Biomechanics, [1997].]

All of the above has some very pronounced implications in terms of swing training methods and developmental issues with regards to young hitters.[And how one would go about evaluating what is appropriate ,what really needs to be considered ,what progresssions might there need to be considered for young developing hitters ,etc.].

All of which gets back to some of the very points that Chesspirate has very astutely pointed towards here.

And of course it is not entirely by accident that Chesspirate is saying what he is saying here. He does have some idea as to what I actually teach and try to convey.

steve

[Ifubuildit]

I find this post interesting in that I am currently working with a student who I am now changing from an Epstein style hitter (As defined in this post) to using the Englishbey method.

Just so you are aware I have spent hundreds of hours following various hitting guru's to try and develop the best methods for my teams and now my students. I have discovered a couple of new guru's on here I need to check out just like I am currently with Steve's material.

Understand I teach young people how to hit. I am not convinced that counter rotation in any form is good for a young person. It is my opinion that it leads to disconnection of the swing, and other things such as hip sway, arm bar, and the shoulder pulling out too quickly. Too hard for a young person to make work without developing bad muscle memory habits that end up being problems as they get older and the pitchers get better. Unless of course they have an instructor who can recognize and correct those problems.

Many do not. They have dear old dad which isnt bad if he knows what an elite swing should look like. Very few have taken the time to figure it out. Most on this board are trying real hard to define that swing. Is it clear as to what that is yet? Never has been in the history of baseball or softball. There has and always will be debate and that is good because that drives innovation and development of new concepts and methods.

I have talked with Steve, but I have not seen his material. I do understand his concept and approach to hitting. I think it may be a better method for young kids as well as older players. That is why I am changing this student. I will let you know my progress with this as I move forward.

Until I see the material I cannot say with conviction that I am convinced. I am not even convinced any of you are right. :) Only because there seems to be a new flavor added to the discussion every time I look. We are up to 429 different flavors right now. I do think this is good dialog and there is a lot to be learned by everyone.

Elliott.

[ShawnB]

Teacherman,

You are a complete idiot. If I want your input I will ask, and any time you want to man up I'm all game.

[ShawnB]

Steve,

You over complicate the entire process.

What actually did Chessipirate say, something I already mentioned.

Who are you that say's I can't use the stretch reflex term? I already know about rate of force production, tendon strength, etc.,. Why do I have to include them in the term stretch reflex. Ever read Ted Williams book and how the swing is like fly fishing?

I already said both sides would deny. Since you work with so many hitters these days why don't you just show use one using PCR. That way I can see someone that has been trained by you personally and not just someone trying to figure it out by themselves. That way you can be much more clearer about your points to the swing, and I can see if they are any different then what I've seen posted.

That would help out a great deal. Show me something I will learn from the video and if I ever catch you at home.

[chesspirate]

Steve,

You over complicate the entire process.

What actually did Chessipirate say, something I already mentioned.
.

Nope, Steve understood what I said just fine, i think you misinterpreted me.

[Ohfor]

Shawn,

We post clips here to show our points. At least the ones who are respected do.

Please post your clip of the good non-PCR yet Epstein mlb hitter.

It will help your image.

Does "man up" mean moderating my posts.:D (at your site) Not the "attitude ones". I'm talking about the ones that disprove your points and you won't let them hit the board. Is that the "man up" you mean? Censor the **** that hurts you. To me that's girlymanly.

Please come to the pool room. I'm amused thinking about it.

[Ohfor]

Steve,

You over complicate the entire process.

What actually did Chessipirate say, something I already mentioned.

Who are you that say's I can't use the stretch reflex term? I already know about rate of force production, tendon strength, etc.,. Why do I have to include them in the term stretch reflex. Ever read Ted Williams book and how the swing is like fly fishing?

I already said both sides would deny. Since you work with so many hitters these days why don't you just show use one using PCR. That way I can see someone that has been trained by you personally and not just someone trying to figure it out by themselves. That way you can be much more clearer about your points to the swing, and I can see if they are any different then what I've seen posted.

That would help out a great deal. Show me something I will learn from the video and if I ever catch you at home.

Come with it Steve. I'm looking forward to this. Let that hint of Teacherman come out of your personality.

Don't let that posse hold you back.:D

[LClifton]

I already said both sides would deny. Since you work with so many hitters these days why don't you just show use one using PCR. That way I can see someone that has been trained by you personally and not just someone trying to figure it out by themselves
Is it all about showing you?
Why is it that some people think something is owed them?

"Show us something Steve."
"I don't want to show you anything, just sit back and critique."
"Then I will determine if you are worthy."

Ask other instructional people for clips of hitters they work with Shawn, NOT just the ones they post clips / or stills of for examples. Actual young hitters they work with.

In fact, show us one of yours. Which method do you use?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Steve,

At higher levels, the key to hitting is to maximize chance of success even when failure seems imminent, correct? In other words the separation approach allows you to keep your hands back, even when you're fooled, and allows you to a better chance of making solid contact. So, with this PCR approach, where the hands move in sync with everything else, what happens when you're fooled? You've lost everything at that point and there's no return. No adjustment possibility. Can you hit on this for me? Am I missing something?

[Ohfor]

..So, with this PCR approach, where the hands move in sync with everything else...

Hey Sultan,

The Ozzie Smith technique of fielding says infielders should put their glove on their right hand so they can field with their dominant hand, then take the glove off and throw with the same hand.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Hey Sultan,

The Ozzie Smith technique of fielding says infielders should put their glove on their right hand so they can field with their dominant hand, then take the glove off and throw with the same hand.

:confused: If you're going to answer for Steve, the least you could do is not throw out a friekin' riddle, lol. :rolleyes:

[Ohfor]

Well, you believed what someone said about Steve's technique without hearing it from him. And jumped to some conclusions.

Why didn't you bite on the fielding technique? Ozzie didn't write it.

And, can you tell me how to create separation in .1 seconds?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

In other words, I know you probably had a point, but there's no way for me to connect the two ideas and make sense of it. You essentially answered a question with a question....so, are you saying that PCA isn't everything moving in sync?

[Ohfor]

I've never heard of PCA.

In Steve's technique he talks about one move. That doesn't mean that that one move doesn't have some segmentation.

I'll ask again. Can you tell us how you instruct someone to "separate" in .1 seconds?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Well, you believed what someone said about Steve's technique without hearing it from him. And jumped to some conclusions.

Why didn't you bite on the fielding technique? Ozzie didn't write it.

And, can you tell me how to create separation in .1 seconds?

Really...what did I believe? Or did I simply ask someone a question? The truth is, I don't know enough about what the two sides disagree on, to even form a belief. That's why I'm asking Steve this question, to gain info little by little. You could probably offer up a solid answer, so why not go that route instead of trying to be a smart alleck?

[Ohfor]

...So, with this PCR approach, where the hands move in sync with everything else, what happens when you're fooled?

Sounds to me to be a statement of fact followed by a question based on that statement of fact.

The answer to your question is there is no answer to your question.

PCR does include segmentation...........for the second time.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I've never heard of PCA.

In Steve's technique he talks about one move. That doesn't mean that that one move doesn't have some segmentation.

Ok, so younger hitters are taught the "one move" approach, correct. As the kids age, what have you viewed their progress to be like? How easy is that adjustment for them; the adjustment of adding segmentation in order to succeed? Do you view your approach sort of like "training wheels" for a bike?

[Ohfor]

Ok, so younger hitters are taught the "one move" approach, correct. As the kids age, what have you viewed their progress to be like? How easy is that adjustment for them; the adjustment of adding segmentation in order to succeed? Do you view your approach sort of like "training wheels" for a bike?

Segmentation is not an add on. It's part of the base swing.

Posture connection and rotation are so interrelated that I don't think you can do anyone of them without the other.

The add ons that I'm familiar with are (and this really depends on how basic you had to get to for a starting point; dependent on your student) scap loading ( I know a case can be made that it's not an add on) momentum development and transfer etc etc. What adds on depends on how basic you go to start.

As far as you adjusting to pitches when fooled.....if you PCR correctly you swing the bat with the body and do not use the hands and arms. Therefore, if adjustment is needed, you've been fooled and your PCR isn't getting you there, you use your arms and posture for adjustments.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sounds to me to be a statement of fact.


You read it how you wanted to read it. I typed it as what I was under the assumption of, hence the "so....." at the beginning. If I was wrong then I was wrong. You don't do much here for people trying to learn things Ohfor. Why the big chip on your shoulder? Maybe consider that others haven't spent as many hours studying these things like you have, and have never had the need to.

[Ohfor]

It's the "riddle me this" that has been engrained in me. Trying to get rid of it.

Getting rid of that is like trying to get rid of Epstein's 1-2-3.

BTW, I edited my previous post while you were typing.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

It's the "riddle me this" that has been engrained in me. Trying to get rid of it.

Getting rid of that is like trying to get rid of Epstein's 1-2-3.

BTW, I edited my previous post while you were typing.

Alright, it's all good. Believe, me when it comes to all this stuff, I know no facts, let that be known here and now :o

[ShawnB]

Teacherman,

I have never censored you based on my believes. Only for attacking others which is all you do on this board.

[Ohfor]

You've now entered the Buster category.

[ShawnB]

Teacherman,

BTW I posted clip of Pujols who has great separation, which is what Epstein teaches. His hips lead the hands.

Now lets see PCR taught by Steve, I think that would be very good to see. He could point what should be happening, etc., and we can all se how PCR works.

[Ohfor]

Great.

Now please post what I asked for.

A non-PCR Epstein-like mlb player.

[Ohfor]

Since you won't be able to do that let's move on.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/baseball/2/apujols2.gif

Please point out this "great separation".

And, while you're at it, please point out how you teach a hitter to achieve this "great separation" in approximately .1 seconds.

Take your time.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I'll ask again. Can you tell us how you instruct someone to "separate" in .1 seconds?

Didn't see this question before, maybe you added it later.

I almost think it's something that can't really be taught, and even if it can be taught, that it still requires the hitter to have a certain level of ability to execute it.

I think by emphasizing the load of the hands, and showing them how torque is created with the hips/torso/shouder, that they could see that the hands can be kickstarted by this "whipping" action because they follow shortly behind (like you said, very short amount of time).

Just saw that Pujols clip again. It appears to me like he's got no wasted movement by eliminating his stride, and essentially any loading of his hands. They're already back with his left arm slightly bent across his chest. If a hitter starts with his hands his hands about even with the armpit or slightly toward the right pec, upon his load, he'd end up where Albert starts. So I don't think his separation will be as great as maybe some other hitters, but it's clearly there imo. If you mark where his hands are just before foot plant, and mark them again about 2 or 3 frames after his hips have started to open up, they're in the same spot. I agree that it's only slight separation, but I think it's necessary to creating great bat speed.

[Ohfor]

...I almost think it's something that can't really be taught...

Your are red hot now. Pretty dang close.

Yet, with some on here, and Epstein, it is the basis of their hitting instruction.

How can the basis of ones hitting instruction be something that happens in less than a tenth of a second and is almost impossible to teach?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Your are red hot now. Pretty dang close.

Yet, with some on here, and Epstein, it is the basis of their hitting instruction.

How can the basis of ones hitting instruction be something that happens in less than a tenth of a second and is almost impossible to teach?


Can't hurt to try, right? If it's such an important part of hitting effectively at high levels, why not give it a shot. It might stick with some, and some might struggle..Maybe it's kinda like going to a club and either trying to pick up on the 9, or the sure thing 6. Heck, why not try for the 9, the 6 will always be there.

Honestly, this is always something I just thougth was a given. Never was coached on it, but could just feel it when it happens. Never occured there would be a different approach.

There's a lefty on my team right now who's strong as an ox, but he really doesn't use his legs and torso the way he should. He's all arms. I've tried to show him over and over through wiffle ball, tennis balls, and off the tee, this "whipping" effect that needs to occur. He gets back in the box off live pitching and reverts to the same crap. Maybe you either just "have it" or you don't :confused:

[Ohfor]

I bet you, if you had the knowledge, and the time to work with this strong lefty, you could teach him the benefit of "sticking the ass out posture" to lengthen his lever and develop a pretty quick efficient swing that would have the necessary segmentation yet would be "one move".

Has anyone ever suggested Steve's DVD?:D

[chesspirate]

Ohfor, i think you're on a roll.

And clean out your inbox so i can send you another PM

[Ohfor]

Done.

That box was full of messages from people who have been huckstered.

[ShawnB]

Teacherman,

If you can't see the separation in Pujols swing you will never see it.

[Ohfor]

Cop out.

Oh Thou Most Greatest Baseball Forum Site Owner....Please, I beg of you......

Please show us that "great separation" that you, thou smartest, sees in Mr. Pujols.

Tell us which frames..................don't forget to count the first one.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Ohfor, from what I see, because of Albert's setup, he doesn't have as much separation as other elite hitters, but it's still there. Here was my amateur comment a few posts back.

"Just saw that Pujols clip again. It appears to me like he's got no wasted movement by eliminating his stride, and essentially any loading of his hands. They're already back with his left arm slightly bent across his chest. If a hitter starts with his hands his hands about even with the armpit or slightly toward the right pec, upon his load, he'd end up where Albert starts. So I don't think his separation will be as great as maybe some other hitters, but it's clearly there imo. If you mark where his hands are just before foot plant, and mark them again about 2 or 3 frames after his hips have started to open up, they're in the same spot. I agree that it's only slight separation, but I think it's necessary to creating great bat speed."



It won't let me save that to my computer Ohfor. Can you repost it in a slowed down frame by frame version starting from where he lifts up his front heel?

[Ohfor]

Folks,

You do know why Shawn hasn't answered the question......right?

It's another one of those "Damn That Video Evidence" moments.

The Hanson Doctrine wins again.

[ShawnB]

No it's why waste my time explaining the swing to you Teacherman. All you have to do is watch the clip.

[ShawnB]

Sultan,

Compared to most ML hitters Pujols has a rather large separation. His hips have rotated open further then most ML hitters and his bat is still back.

Compared to someone like Abreu, Pujols has greater separation.

Separation doesn't mean they aren't connected. The shoulder do open some while the hips open, It's only natural to open them some. The real test is how long the bat stays back and in Pujols case the hands remain cocked and the bat back while his hips open up.

[Ohfor]

Damn that video!!!:)

It forces a whole new definition of separation because what he thought was there isn't.

Busted.

[ssarge]

Shawn,

I don't think ANYONE is saying separation mandates disconnection.


I've always thought of separation as a reference to upper and lower body separation. Mainly hips to shoulders.

If you are saying "keeping the hands back" is what is meant by separation, I have to admit that's a new one to me.

By traditional definition - or at least my understanding of it - I don't see much separation in Pujols.

Certainly not the 30 degrees apparently mandated by Epstein as an "absolute" for MLB power hitters. Nowhere close to that in fact.

Regards,

Scott

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan,

Compared to most ML hitters Pujols has a rather large separation. His hips have rotated open further then most ML hitters and his bat is still back.

Compared to someone like Abreu, Pujols has greater separation.

Separation doesn't mean they aren't connected. The shoulder do open some while the hips open, It's only natural to open them some. The real test is how long the bat stays back and in Pujols case the hands remain cocked and the bat back while his hips open up.

I see the separation in Pujols, although I think there are other hitters who have more. Hitters who don't start with their hands in a relatively loaded position like Pujols. Take a Ensberg or a Delgado or somebody for instance. Got any clips of them?

[ssarge]

Sultan:

Sure looks to me as if Pujol's hips and shoulders start with one frame of video (somewhere between 32nd and 33rd frame). On a 60fps clip. That isn't much difference. ABout the only difference I see is that he has loaded his shoulders to a greater angular degree than he has cocked his hips. But they both start at about the same time. VERY minor lag.

Do you see it differently?

Regards,

Scott

[hiddengem]

I see the separation in Pujols, although I think there are other hitters who have more. Hitters who don't start with their hands in a relatively loaded position like Pujols. Take a Ensberg or a Delgado or somebody for instance. Got any clips of them?
http://img9.picsplace.to/img9/10/delgato200a.gif (http://picsplace.to/)


Go to this address and under the TV screen on this page you can click on a homerun by Ensberg. He has quite alot of hand load in his swing. http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=hou By the way his "cue" is to swing down on the ball. I believe that you can have this cue and do it, as long as you stay behind the ball at contact and not let your axis get to far forward. This cue for him and many other great MLB hitters, helps them to stay on top of the ball and not get beat by a good fastball.

[Erik]

http://img9.picsplace.to/img9/10/delgato200a.gif (http://picsplace.to/)


Go to this address and under the TV screen on this page you can click on a homerun by Ensberg. He has quite alot of hand load in his swing. http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=hou By the way his "cue" is to swing down on the ball. I believe that you can have this cue and do it, as long as you stay behind the ball at contact and not let your axis get to far forward. This cue for him and many other great MLB hitters, helps them to stay on top of the ball and not get beat by a good fastball.


Hiddengem,
when should a hitter swing down on the ball? I would also like to ask about training and developing this type of swing. Do you think setting up my product in a downward swing path is useful then if you stay behind the ball and keep the axis back?



Erik Laseke,

[Sultan_1895-1948]

http://img9.picsplace.to/img9/10/delgato200a.gif (http://picsplace.to/)


Go to this address and under the TV screen on this page you can click on a homerun by Ensberg. He has quite alot of hand load in his swing. http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=hou By the way his "cue" is to swing down on the ball. I believe that you can have this cue and do it, as long as you stay behind the ball at contact and not let your axis get to far forward. This cue for him and many other great MLB hitters, helps them to stay on top of the ball and not get beat by a good fastball.

Cool HG, thanks. Any chance you can post that Ensberg one too?

When you say "cue," you're referring to something that doesn't necessarily have to be done, but it's something in the players mind that helps him get results, correct. So while the "cue" might be to swing down, what he's actually doing isn't swinging down, but staying down through the ball, or flat through the ball. Would you agree?

[swingbuster]

I think "swing down" and "keep the barrel above the hands" can be a weight shift cue to. The hands stay high/ rear elbow up until the front side gets weighted. Swing up and dropping of the rear shoulder matches up with spinning on the back foot sometimes

[ShawnB]

I don't think ANYONE is saying separation mandates disconnection.

Actually some people do relate separation with disconnection.


I've always thought of separation as a reference to upper and lower body separation. Mainly hips to shoulders.

If you are saying "keeping the hands back" is what is meant by separation, I have to admit that's a new one to me.

And that is where your missing separation. The shoulders naturally start to open with the hips. There is some separation between the hip and shoulder and even more if don't count the initial opening of the shoulders.

I look at it this way, the hips and legs are the whip handle, They start they whole process. Ted was right it is hips and then hands and that is why we keep the hands back.

Keeping the hands back and allowing the hip to initiate the swing is separation. The bat remaining cocked creates lag and separation between the upper body and the lower body. I also believe having a high back elbow increases the separation and it has always been thought that the high back elbow creates more bat speed.

Look at this frame,

The shoulders have started, but not a great deal. The hips are approaching half way open, he is up on the toe already. The hands are still cocked and the barrel is still back and cocked. This to me is separation, bat cocked, hands back and hips open. It's not about how much separation there is between the hips and the shoulders, it's the over all approach (the lower body and upper body). From this cocked position the bat will come around rather quickly and powerfully.

http://home.comcast.net/~bellshw/separation.gif



By traditional definition - or at least my understanding of it - I don't see much separation in Pujols.

I don't look at it from traditional terms.

Certainly not the 30 degrees apparently mandated by Epstein as an "absolute" for MLB power hitters. Nowhere close to that in fact.

I don't even consider the 30 degrees. Almost all hitters setup the 30 degrees in their stance. This offset the hips and the shoulders which will help create separation.

[Ohfor]

And that is where your missing separation.

No, we're not missing it. You're reinventing it.

Keeping the hands back and allowing the hip to initiate the swing is separation.

That's the "new definition" I alluded to that you would have to come up with.


The shoulders have started, but not a great deal. The hips are approaching half way open, he is up on the toe already. The hands are still cocked and the barrel is still back and cocked. This to me is separation, bat cocked, hands back and hips open. It's not about how much separation there is between the hips and the shoulders, it's the over all approach

At least you're honest about your lack of understanding.

Now, give us your analysis of Delgato. His hands and shoulders are back. Is he like magnus separatus? Superior separator?

I believe he is your "great separation" candidate that started this discussion. Not Pujols.

Nice recovery though.

[GoDeep]

MY, MY, MY... Ofur is Teacherman. i should have known. persuasion by attempted intimidation. go on a diet man and get real. then you might feel alot better about yourself. just my opinion

[Ohfor]

Don't say anything stupid and attempt to back it up with junk and you won't hear from me.

[GoDeep]

Hey Teacherman,

Only one more personal thing i'll say about you and our dialogue will end. you, sir, are a black eye to the posse.

On the Puljos swing. he has massive separation between his shoulders and his hips. the thing is most of it was there when he launched. his strength keeps the clutch from slipping so he swings as a segmented unit that sequentially unloads. a perfect example of PCR

[Ohfor]

Hey Teacherman,

Only one more personal thing i'll say about you and our dialogue will end. you, sir, are a black eye to the posse.

On the Puljos swing. he has massive separation between his shoulders and his hips. the thing is most of it was there when he launched. his strength keeps the clutch from slipping so he swings as a segmented unit that sequentially unloads. a perfect example of PCR

Ah, the hit and run......And, the preset separation.

Make a statement and run from it.

Especially when video doesn't back you up.

Please show us this massive separation between the hips and shoulders. Which frames? Count them. You won't get beyond two.

Now tell us how you teach that. Something that happens in 1/15 of a second....or less.

Finally, I'm not a posse member. I choose to remain independent to expose stupid statements without worry about what people think of them (posse).

See ya. Coward.

[GoDeep]

Post #52 this thread... his hips are pointing toward 3rd base and his shoulders are pointing towards the pitcher. that is some pretty good separation. the hips, torso and shoulders are rotating as a unit in that still. it all catches up at contact.

[Ohfor]

I thought you were done.

A great example of preset separation (preset torque angle). Or better said, a shoulder load. That is far from separation.

The body has turned as a unit for 6 full frames before the frame you are referring to.

Separation in most people's book, except those that need a new definition to recover, is the hips going forward while the shoulders remaining back or even moving back. So, most people guage separation by the number of frames the lower body moves before the upper body moves.

Delgato demonstrates separation. Pujol's is very insignificant. Definately far from "massive".

What you are talking about is the torque angle as coined by Epstein, I believe. See Griffey stance.

[GoDeep]

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

So, your definition of separation is "slop" after initiation. mine is degrees at launch. i don't want slop, but i do want degrees. good night...

[Ohfor]

Well, yes. I agree. Separation is/can be a major form of slop. Why do you think I'm taking the position that Pujols has little or none?

You and your boy are claiming massive amounts of it. I couldn't disagree more.

Again, you're talking about torque angle. Get your terminology straight.

See Epstein logo. That is what most think separation is.

[hiddengem]

Hiddengem,
when should a hitter swing down on the ball? I would also like to ask about training and developing this type of swing. Do you think setting up my product in a downward swing path is useful then if you stay behind the ball and keep the axis back?



Erik Laseke,

I don't think its possible to use your product in the down position and keep your axis back. I was having this very conversation with a guy on my team today. He has a tendancy to not sit in his back leg and get in the power "L" position. Rather his axis is too far forward, towards the pitcher causing him to slice through the ball at contact causing pop ups. He needs to think about leaning back towards the catcher at contact, which will get his bat on plane with the pitch. This "cue" obviously doesn't work for everbody, others need to think about being more upright.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

...

Where did this "hips and shoulders" talk come from? It's all about his hands staying back for a slight instant after his hips have already opened up, ain't it? Don't mean to ride the fence, but I agree and disagree with Ohfer. I agree that it's not something easy to teach, but at the same time, I see no reason why we shouldn't at least "try" to teach young kids this, or at least explain to them what's going on when it happens.

[Ohfor]

The disagreement ends up about the definition of separation. If you'd have been around the hitting internet for the last 5-8 years you'd know about the "hips and shoulders" and how they are involved in separation. What separation is and what torque angle is.

As far as what to teach, the point is, separation can be a form of slop. I like and agree with Steve E's point of a one move swing. Get the right posture, stick your butt out, connect the bat to the body and rotate. Done properly, you won't see much separation. Usually a frame or two. See Pujols. And before everyone has a cow, that doesn't mean there isn't segmentation. It just means is all happens very quickly. No slop.

Yet, others make a big deal out of separation. If they were pitching coaches I'd support them. But, the more they teach separation to hitters, the more slop that enters into players swings.

[Steve Englishbey]

I do not have time to explain here what Richard [ohfor] has referred to as "one move."

It does not mean no "separation ". In fact in actually means something quite different.

It has to do with creating a simple way of describing and understanding the basic loading pattern that elite hitters create.

It has to do with how to explain to parents ,coaches ,players in a relatively simple but accurate manner, the basic loading pattern of elite hitters.


steve

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Both of those post made sense. Thanks 0-4 and Steve.

[ShawnB]

Teacherman,

I didn't reinvent anything, it's just shows you that my way of looking at separation is different then yours. I have never said it was all about hips and shoulders, they are just a part of the puzzle.

I'm waiting to see what Scott thinks about separation.

[Ohfor]

We both have taken a similar internet path to get where we are today. Over 5 years for me. More for you, I suspect.

How you could have any other definition of separation is beyond me.

[ssarge]

Shawn:

Sorry, didn't know it was to me.

Kind of what Richard said. I can live with any definition you care to assign, for the sake of an individual discussion.

But I think I fairly accurately captured the conventional lexicon definition previously.


I happen to believe that most separation between hips and shoulders is because the shoulders start more loaded. Even that is deceptive - it is abduction / adduction, not counter rotation. I kind of look at it as taking the slack out of the shoulders, not turning inward.

I believe the hips and shoulders initiate very closely to one another - hips generally go first, but JUST first. I think aiming for a lot of separation is more downside than upside.


Regards,

Scott

[fungo22]

Accidently and prematurely posted. See next post. My apologies.

[fungo22]

I'm not sure whether everybody is ignoring what Steve said, or whether they don't really understand its significance in this rowdy polemic, but I think it warrants restatement because it is extremely relevant and informative. My "interpretation" may not be technically correct, but I have hopes that it is substantially correct.

And I would add that only the very best hitters in the world ,ie , those elite hitters that combine power and efficiency [power and high average] ,are truly optimizing segmental differentials.They are better even than most at the big league level. Not that many hitters - even at the MLB level - actually have much "separation." Only the best of the best, who hit both for power and high average.

And I would argue that this is at least in part because of their tremendous abilty to load and control the pelvic action ---without which they could not create the kind of separation that essentially only hitters at this level effectively create. The best of the best at the MLB level who are able to pull of a significant degree of separation are able to do so because of their ability to powerfully control, load and unlead the middle of their bodies.

I would also argue that the abilty to optimally link relatively large segmental differentials [separation] is a function of very high-level "reactive strength ." Effective separation at that level of competition can only be achieved by an extremely athletic and functional strength that enables them to synchronize and effectively "fire" the segments with optimal quickness and timing.

Illustration. The air is so thin in Leadville, CO that the airport there only allows planes to take off with their tanks half full to insure that the planes are able to take off before the runway runs out. A certain pilot requested that they go ahead and top off his tanks. They refused and explained their reasoning. The pilot replied that he understood their reasoning and was familiar with the thin air problems and its effect on aeronautics, but that his plane was pretty hot and he could guarantee it had more than enough thrust to to lift it up in spite of the thin air. They still weren't convinced. They'd heard such claims before. The cockey pilot proceeded to submit his credentials. His name was Chuck Yeager and he had had some experience with thin air aeronautics and that he would take all responsibility. They did for Yeager what they did for no other pilot.They topped off his tanks. And even with the extra weight his plane had the power to take off using only half the runway. They'd never seen a plane with that kind of "reactive power." When Yeager hit the throttle, the aircraft responded with immediate and awesome power. An elite plane controlled by an elite pilot.

New pilots in their single-engine Cessnas could have never done what Yeager did in his "souped up" craft. Their Cessnas lacked the "functional strength."Segmenting and effectively synchronized a sequence of high-level ballistic movements requires an elite functional strength.


[Which would be a function of things like rate of force capability ,eccentric stength , tendon strength, muscle "stiffnerss", etc.]. This is functional strength and is only achieved by the the most elite athletes who have trained their bodies to create both superhuman ballistic quickness and batspeed necessary to hit for both power and high average against high-level pitching.

Using a term like "stretch reflex" in this context is a relatively superficial explanation [at best] of what really should be understood as very powerful and efficient "stretch-shortening " or reactive strength capability.

Stretch reflex activity is a very normal and naturally occuring physiological occurance in all kinds of movement from all kinds of people. The term "stretch reflex" is accurate in describing the muscle action as far as it goes, but it does not explain the tremendous functional strength of the elite athletes who are able to execute these movements.


As opposed to very high -level "reactive strength " capability---which very very few athletes that I see at the high school level down [and this would espcially apply to baseball and softball hitters.] The extremely athletic ability to fire muscles ballistically - both instantly and with tremendous explosive power - is rare. Cleeeduss doesn't see it very often at the HS level, let alone at younger levels.

[And,as an aside, I would also point out that though the term "strech reflex " is commonly used by many to explain the potentiation of rapid movement , it is not entirely clear that this is in fact the case [see for ex. "The Mechanics and Energetics of the Stretch-Shorteninhg Cycle " Journal of Applied Biomechanics, [1997].] Whatever.

All of the above has some very pronounced implications in terms of swing training methods and developmental issues with regards to young hitters.[And how one would go about evaluating what is appropriate ,what really needs to be considered ,what progresssions might there need to be considered for young developing hitters ,etc.]. Since efficient segmentation is achieved only by elite athletes at the highest levels of competition who have learned to control, load and unload the muscles in their pelvic region, there are some pretty clear implications for what one might effectively teach to young hitters (who have none of these capabilities.

Cletus sort of leaves it at that and expects everyone to draw the logical conclusions. I'm going to go out on a limb and draw some.

Cletus starts with "PCR" because (at the risk of oversimplifying what Shawn thinks Cletus has overcomplicated) one must walk before one can run, and one must crawl before one can walk. Only the most elite among infants climb out of their crib and knock off a couple wind sprints before they master the art of dragging their torso behind their elbows. Similarly, young hitters are not physically capable of creating effecitve segmentation and sequencing before they learn to control, load and unload the muscles in their pelvic region - in short, before they learn to efficiently connect their bats to their shoulder rotation and then power that rotation by efficiently loading and unloading the middle of their bodies ... and then train that ability - through disciplined and extensive practice and functional strength conditioning - both in terms of creating tremendous stability as well as ballistic movement strength - to the degree that can begin to effectively "segment" and "synchronize" those movements in ways that enable them to hit for high-average at the MLB level as well as hit for power.

Does PCR start out with "connected spinning" as a goal? Yes, dammit. One must walk before one can run. Does that mean that connected spinning is the ultimate goal of the PCR school of thought? No, dammit. Running - and running among the elite runners - is our ultimate goal. But it is more complicated than teaching young hitters to "wind the rubber band" and other "by-the-numbers," "follow-the-bouncing-ball" approaches to "coil dynamics" and "separation."

You may think Steve is just pontificating in a way similar to that of several others on this forum. If you do, you'd be making a serious mistake. As I've pointed out before - and I am sincere when I say this - he is smarter than he looks.

Shawn claims that this makes things overly complicated. I'm not sure how high one ought to set his complexometer before an alarm goes off to warn him that things have exceeded the "overly complex" red line. It seems to me that it is as complicated as it is. It either is as Cletus says it is or it isn't. And if it is as he says it is, then it is, in fact, exactly as complicated as Cletus has represented it. If, on the other hand, Shawn understands this training shinola better than Cletus and Cletus is wrong about what he asserts, then perhaps he has overly complicated matters.

Shawn, on which points was Cletus wrong?

And even if he has made things overly complex, I have counterbalanced that by making things overly simplistic.

[swingbuster]

Segmenting and effectively synchronized a sequence of high-level ballistic movements requires an elite functional strength.

Or a 7 year old with a good "hand set" and 10 practice swings


Another teaching method is to amplify the synchronization so they can feel it and learn it and reduce it as needed.

The bigger you make something ; the easier it is for kids to understand it. Burn the muscle memory into the swing upper and lower body patterns that work together

[fungo22]

Talk about proving my point that Steve's post went over the heads of some ...

Or a 7 year old with a good "hand set" and 10 practice swings
You completely ignored the substance and missed the point of what was posted. You may have succeeded in teaching them to superficially mimic the sequencing of the best of the best at the highest levels of baseball competition, but you have by no means taught them the sort of high-level ballistic movements that those hitters are executing. Get serious.

And now that you've taught them their 10-swing sequencing (assuming you have), what are you going to do to teach them how to do the rest of what was described - not once, but twice - the foundation of the high-level swing that enables this sort of segmentation at the highest levels?

I wish you'd lose your arrogance and substantially address what has been writting instead of skirting the issues and serving up the same old superficial crap. But I guess that is hoping for too much. Apparently you are not capable of doing so.

So never mind. Carry on.

[GoDeep]

Hey Fungo,

Very nice post... and i think Ssarge is a great example of the master this before you can even think about trying to master that concept. he showed us how he took his daughter back and then taught her back up. my hats off to both you guys!!!!!

[ssarge]

I think "swing down" and "keep the barrel above the hands" can be a weight shift cue to. The hands stay high/ rear elbow up until the front side gets weighted. Swing up and dropping of the rear shoulder matches up with spinning on the back foot sometimes

Or, for a kid trying to learn to hit, these cues simply encourage you to swing down with the bat above the hands.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Not that many hitters - even at the MLB level - actually have much "separation." Only the best of the best, who hit both for power and high average.
Fungo:

Are you saying that it is not helpful to look at a young hitter and simply dismiss his / her swing as "not fitting an MLB pattern?"

Are you saying that much emphasis can be placed on emulating very subtle swing refinements before the underlying foundation of what is REALLY imporatant has been built?

Wow. Something to think about.


Illustration. The air is so thin in Leadville, CO that the airport there only allows planes to take off with their tanks half full to insure that the planes are able to take off before the runway runs out. A certain pilot requested that they go ahead and top off his tanks. They refused and explained their reasoning. The pilot replied that he understood their reasoning and was familiar with the thin air problems and its effect on aeronautics, but that his plane was pretty hot and he could guarantee it had more than enough thrust to to lift it up in spite of the thin air. They still weren't convinced. They'd heard such claims before. The cockey pilot proceeded to submit his credentials. His name was Chuck Yeager and he had had some experience with thin air aeronautics and that he would take all responsibility. They did for Yeager what they did for no other pilot.They topped off his tanks. And even with the extra weight his plane had the power to take off using only half the runway. They'd never seen a plane with that kind of "reactive power." When Yeager hit the throttle, the aircraft responded with immediate and awesome power. An elite plane controlled by an elite pilot.

New pilots in their Cessnas could have never done what Yeager did in his souped up craft. Segmenting and effectively synchronized a sequence of high-level ballistic movements requires an elite functional strength.
Absolutely outstanding analogy. Am I accurate in extending it to the next level? If Yeager told other pilots they could do the same thing, simply by following his "cues." Would it be reasonable to expect that they would obtain a similar result? Or would they auger in?

And that's not to say the other pilots might not have "the right stuff." It is simply to say they aren't ready. Yet.


Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Hey Fungo,

Very nice post... and i think Ssarge is a great example of the master this before you can even think about trying to master that concept. he showed us how he took his daughter back and then taught her back up. my hats off to both you guys!!!!!
Let me go further:

O think Greg has authored one of the best posts I have ever read.


I appreciate the kind words. We did go to a static load w/ my daughter to get rid of a pushing problem. Which worked to solve that problem, BTW.


Because her swing now felt "weird," she sometimes reverted to a crappy pattern with no momentum transfer, and a nunch of slop w/ her hands. The swing you saw was about as bad as it ever got.

Now that the pushing problem is solved, we're moving back to a dynamic load, and adding a small stride. Seeing some nice progress. Still much work to be done. But if she hadn't solved the pushing problem when we did, it may have been too late to ever solve it.

I don't expect it will be a slam dunk to get the loading pattern in place. Suspect it will take a year or more, and who knows? Maybe she'll never get it perfect.

But I KNOW she never would have made it to the level to which she aspires if she was pushing. So you do what you have to do.


I would urge everyone to read Fungo's post again. Seriously good.

Regards,

Scott

[fungo22]

Are you saying that it is not helpful to look at a young hitter and simply dismiss his / her swing as "not fitting an MLB pattern?" Has the ring of a rhetorical question, but since that too may soar over certain heads faster than Yeager in his Northrup F-20, I'll play along: I think this would be a reasonable conclusion from what Steve wrote. Question is whether you think Steve knows what he's talking about. It's all that muscle man talk, so who knows? Give me some baseball guy talk any day.

Are you saying that much emphasis can be placed on emulating very subtle swing refinements before the underlying foundation of what is REALLY imporatant has been built? It can be so placed. And some have actually placed it there. It suggests that they don't really understand the significance of the foundation. But no, I'm not saying that. That would be Steve again.

If Yeager told other pilots they could do the same thing, simply by following his "cues." Would it be reasonable to expect that they would obtain a similar result? Or would they auger in? You got pretty good extension on that one. Let me go one step further: If some flight instructor (with or without med school ... or even horse doctor school) who didn't really understand how Yeager's supercharged plane was powered were to teach beginning pilots in their single-engine Cessnas to mimic the actions of Yeager as follows: (1) Set your breaks while moving their stick to this position, (2) rev your (Cessna) engines to X number of rpm (based on measurements made by the other Yeager), (3) synchronize the the attainment of X rpm with the release of the break ...

That is the high-level pattern. Practice it in your simulator 10 times and you'll have it. Top off those tanks and go for it.


Or at least that's my interpretation of what Steve wrote. You're giving me too much credit here. I just rephrased what Steve wrote. He really is smarter than he looks. He is just being kind when he says that I am. Or at least I am not consistently smarter than I look.

On the other hand, I am almost certainly smarter than Steve looks. In my opinion.

[swingbuster]

I think "swing down" and "keep the barrel above the hands" can be a weight shift cue to. The hands stay high/ rear elbow up until the front side gets weighted. Swing up and dropping of the rear shoulder matches up with spinning on the back foot sometimes

I watch for this but don't teach with it. I mention it to explain why I think it is around today and even at tha MLB coaching level.

[Steve Englishbey]

And here's an education analogy to consider in this context:

As a first grade teacher you have decided the math curriculum should start with quantum physics.

Next the kids are sent to the PE teacher ----who has decided to start the kids off with O-lifts ,cleans ,clean and jerk, overhead snatch ,at their 1 -rep max.

They are then sent to the music teacher ----who has decided that rather than start with understanding simple time signatures 2/4, 4/4 ---you start with odd times like 11/7 ,7/4, 13/8 etc.


They are then sent to the spanish teacher ----who has decided to speak thru the entire class in spanish.[First homework assignment : watch the dubbed in spanish version of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?"]


They are then sent to English class ----where each student has on his desk the lastest revised compilation of French Deconstructionism [840 pgs.][And the first homework assignment : read and critique Sarte's "No Exit ."]


I vote we send Swingbuster's 7-yr. old there.

Apparently he can handle it.



steve

[swingbuster]

How about "put your bat here Johnny and hit the ball". A very good place to start.

Lets put Johnny's bat where his top hand cannot mess the swing up. When he learns to swing with the bottom hand we can quicken him up but by then he might not need it as he has developed some good torque.

If little Johnny swings for 7 more years top hand connected then he is a soccer player.

We post lots of soccer players here

:waving

[GFK]

While we are on the discussion of separation / segmentation, I am interested in hearing the forum’s opinion on my approach w.r.t. teaching my three sons this aspect of the swing.

I see the separation / segmentation between the hips and shoulders as a no-teach. I cue my sons to lock their shoulders and hips and to unlock and keep the shoulders turning through the ball after the hips are at the end of their range of motion.

What I think is happening with the elite hitters is that their hip rotation is so powerful and explosive that it gets ahead of their shoulder rotation by approximately 1 frame or less until the torso muscles load enough to lock the shoulders to the hips. I do not think they are trying to purposely leave their shoulders behind their hips.

I am not confident I am correct. This is why I am asking for opinions.

[ShawnB]

Greg,

I don't know Cletus. So I can't tell you if was wrong or right.

[Steve Englishbey]

Shawn see post 71 on pg 3 of this thread.

Cletus would be me.

steve

[fungo22]

What I think is happening with the elite hitters is that their hip rotation is so powerful and explosive that it gets ahead of their shoulder rotation by approximately 1 frame or less until the torso muscles load enough to lock the shoulders to the hips. I do not think they are trying to purposely leave their shoulders behind their hips.

I am not confident I am correct. This is why I am asking for opinions. OK, Greg. Here's mine:
While I agree that their hip rotation is powerful & explosive, I don't think it is so much so that their torso couldn't keep up. As Cletus has pointed out in an earlier thread, it actually takes more "reactive strenght" to create the right amount of separation that to rotate as a unit.

Are they purposefully leaving their shoulders an instant behind? I think it depends on what you mean by "purposefully." If you mean they think "hips lead hands" or "hips lead shoulders," then I suspect that most are not so cognitively aware of what their bodies need to do. However, I also think that some do have some awareness. Loren, didn't one of your golf chums tell you their "swing thoughts" were "lead with the hips" or something like that?

On the other hand, I think all of them "purposefully" separate segments in the sense that they've learned how to intuitively or instinctively create a kind of whipping action.

[swingbuster]

The hips and shoulders are working together to make sure they don't work together. That is part of learning to hit.

The hands are cocking or the shoulders are turning back as the hips open.

[fungo22]

The hips and shoulders are working together to make sure they don't work together. That is part of learning to hit.

The hands are cocking or the shoulders are turning back as the hips open.I don't disagree. Why don't you go read Steve's post?

[LClifton]

Fungo here you go. Major Leaguers response to how do you initiate your swing?

TC DBacks: I don't think about that. What I am trying to do is get a pitch in my favorite area. I may stand in a certain area of the box one time up and then shift slightly to "bait the pitcher" to throw it where I want it. Then I simply try to be on time making a quality swing.

Chad Tracy DBacks
I have a snap zone right about here (points to an area just in front of his right hip) He replied, Good question. I feel my hands and arms move first, together, and my hips follow very quickly. So, I asked him, hands then hips?
His reply was , "Yes, because I tend to be too quick with my hips so it feels better to me to think about hands leading hips.

Troy Glaus former DBack
I really focus on a solid consistent set-up with very little deviation. When I see the ball in a good spot I try to turn very quickly. I guess my swing is initiated in my brain, he said, and then laughed.

Reggie Sanders Former DBack/ now Royal
If my hands move away from my body too quickly I don't hit the ball flush.
My first move is to keep my hands near my body.

TC's brother in law: I can't remember his name? Played for 8 yrs. He is going to be a minor league hitting instructor for the Orioles.
His response: I want to make sure that one body part does not get to far in front of or behind another. I want to hit the ball right there. (points to a contact point)

Then I asked each of them this: What is the one thing that you consistently work on in batting practice:

T. Clark: Hitting my pitch
T. Clark' bro-in-law, since I'm not as gifted physically as some, I worked on being on time to maximize my power.
C Tracy: I want to feel I'm over the plate a little
R. Sanders: Moving my body as a unit.
T Glaus:Pretty much hitting the ball (pretty good sense of humor) No seriously, Being efficient, no extra movement

[ssarge]

Thanks, Loren. Good info.


Can't argue w/ what players "feel."

You can point out how important it is to understand that young hitters feel absolutely nothing near the same as these guys, and that the action/perception gap is hugely obvious. And so a cue that works for some percentage of the MLB guys might well be hugely damaging to a young hitter.

But some apparently don't believe this.


Troy Glauss is a bright guy. Can't imagine why he laughed when he said the "swing was initiated in [his] brain."

SPOT on. Understanding how the brain most efficiently solves the hugely complex motor skills problem that is hitting is what it's about, IMO.

Best regards,

Scott

[Ohioteamz]

I could swear glaus was on one of those San Diego area all-star teams that Epstein coached back in his SD days. Seems like Eric Chavez, and a couple other future mlbers played on that team. I seem to recall that marcus giles did not make the team or something along those lines.

[ssarge]

For sure Chavez was. I spoke to Jake Epstein about him once. Apparently, that was quite a team.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

The hands are cocking or the shoulders are turning back as the hips open.

I don't disagree.

Fungo,

I think we agree on a lot. We disagree on how to get kids to do it maybe. My system uses fairly obvious points for kids to see. The set up is where I work the most. Posture( thanks to you guys) and the box with a weightless bat and relaxed low lead elbow . From there I draw two vertical black lines on the plastic 430 B wiffles and they hit the inside line. They tuck the hips and load the shoulder back to get inside the ball better

THis yields a fairly consistent line drive back through the box in a completely naive kid in a short time. It yields hips ahead of hands without them even knowing what that means. Yes, I slow their hands down with hand set and tell them to rotate the hips .

14 yo last night came by my house with Dad and in 20 minutes he at least got my two points

1. posture..butt out; chest out

2. hand set.... BHUT

a. that yielded better bottom hand connection as we pronated his top hand
b . the only command in the true swing was rotate

We quit coming over the top and went from circling the ball to 3B to hard drives up the middle and then he left and went to practice. I just gave him two thoughts to work on and both were in the set up. I predict we will hit better. He needs to practice that to get segmentalized for a while and then take another look at it. The good news is that he should hit better at practice immediately and that might inspire him that somebody CAN help him and make him listen better in the future

[dougmac]

Cop out.

Oh Thou Most Greatest Baseball Forum Site Owner....Please, I beg of you......

Please show us that "great separation" that you, thou smartest, sees in Mr. Pujols.

Tell us which frames..................don't forget to count the first one.

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/Robinson1.mov

Is this clip showing how the hips lead the hands? (and shoulders)

[Ohfor]

Yep.

But, I still see no "great" separation between upper and lower bodies, in terms of frames of video between when one starts as compared to the other.

These frames, or lack there of, is very important.

[swingbuster]

Another clear case for plane transition...the only way to insure separation.

BHUT then turn on plane......get it

[joof]

Swingbuster

Mechanically, how do you see F. Robinson achieving the BHUT positioning?

joof

[swingbuster]

Your bat cannot go vertical unless the bottom hand goes under the top.

The BH cannot go under the top unless the lead elbow comes down

The lead elbow comes down to allow the rear elbow to go around the corner more behind the body and in the up position to add more power .

the vertical bat position is maintained during the stride to maintain the shoulders back.

the hips rotate and the vertical bat delays the shoulders until the hands begin to turn on pane adding separation/

Slowing the hands relative to the hips gets the hands behind the rotational mechanism

PHD Physiologist have said this and Gary Sheffield has said this

[Steve Englishbey]

Swingbuster ,how are elite hitters like Garciappara, Derek Lee,Macguire, Alou, Pete Rose, Paul Molitor , Manny Ramirez etc ,et al ,able to "stay back "using very little "arm action" to do so?

How do you explain this ?

steve

[Mark H]

Another clear case for plane transition...the only way to insure separation.

BHUT then turn on plane......get it

"Only" seems clearly a bridge too far semantically and logically. In any case, looking at Robinson I don't see a mechanically relevant BHUT or plane transition. I just see the way he is comfortable getting to a good launch position on time.

[joof]

Swingbuster, I couldn't tell if your last post was answering my question about how you see F. Robinson mechanically achieving BHUT positioning in the clip posted by dougmac. The following quote from that post somewhat relates to what I asked based on what I have seen you describe in other posts. I was really interested in your observations on the Robinson clip.

The lead elbow comes down to allow the rear elbow to go around the corner more behind the body and in the up position to add more power .

Does this quote contain a description of how you see Robinson
mechanically achieving BHUT positioning?

Thanks, joof

[swingbuster]

Swingbuster ,how are elite hitters like Garciappara, Derek Lee,Macguire, Alou, Pete Rose, Paul Molitor , Manny Ramirez etc ,et al ,able to "stay back "using very little "arm action" to do so?

How do you explain this ?

steve

they use a swing more like you teach. I would check them all for hip tuck/ coil before I committed to that statement completely

[fungo22]

"Only" seems clearly a bridge too far semantically and logically. Nice metaphor.