Performance Enhancing drugs used since 1889

[Taco De Muerte]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5VEXfUFE8l0BOKlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2cWNnaWd rBGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANCMTAwX zkz/SIG=141js1m9v/EXP=1145228951/**http%3a//www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/baseball/14297345.htm%3fsource=rss%26channel=miamiherald_ba seball

[Mattingly]

For some strange reason, I was expecting that article to name the ones used back in 1889 and through the course of time until the present. Am I alone in this?

It's interesting hearing that they've been used, but couldn't they have elaborated a bit more on this?

[BadKarma]

Nope, yer not alone, I was expecting the same thing. The article did say he used a Testosterone injection though.

[Mattingly]

Thanks, BK. I was feeling a might lonely out there for awhile. ;)

Anyway, I wouldn't mind what guys used back then. I'm sure there had to be more than hot dogs that Ruth used. Could've been some extra barley & hops in his beer or something. :)

[ESPNFan]

Thanks, BK. I was feeling a might lonely out there for awhile. ;)

Anyway, I wouldn't mind what guys used back then. I'm sure there had to be more than hot dogs that Ruth used. Could've been some extra barley & hops in his beer or something. :)

Or the Coke Classic with Tony Montana secret ingredient in it. :laugh

Seroiusly if we have gotten to the point of calling out guys for injecting themselves with sheep semen before modern medicine even knew what was going on we are really grasping at straws.

[Stu Macher]

This article was good, but doesn't really tell us anything we shouldn't have already known. So a player over a 100 years ago was cheating by taking performance enhancing substances, this really isn't big news to me. Did we all really think that hotdogs and beer was the reason for ruth's explosive HR power ? Or did we really think that ty cobb's .366 batting average was because of ' talent ' alone ? Comeon people, the reality of it is athletes are always looking for an edge. It's been like that forever and will never change.

[Mattingly]

Or the Coke Classic with Tony Montana secret ingredient in it. :laugh

Seroiusly if we have gotten to the point of calling out guys for injecting themselves with sheep semen before modern medicine even knew what was going on we are really grasping at straws.
I must've missed that commercial. How'd it go? Me, I'm a Pepsi man, so that's my thing.

Sheep semen? Oh boy. :eek: I think that's got a thing ... I'm not sure I can seriously discuss. Uhhhhhhhhh, I'll leave that one alone! :D

[Taco De Muerte]

I think this part of the article about sums it up - But author Roger I. Abrams has, and he says if baseball bothers to take a look, it would find out that none of what's going on today is new. The only difference is in the way it's being perceived.

The simple fact is - players " cheated " in the best way possible they could back then. It's absolutely no different today.

Bonds " bashers " will just brush off this article by saying " this is just another excuse to defend bonds for his crimes " - Well, if anyone believes that, then so be it. That still doesn't change anything about what the article states.

[ESPNFan]

I must've missed that commercial. How'd it go? Me, I'm a Pepsi man, so that's my thing.

Sheep semen? Oh boy. :eek: I think that's got a thing ... I'm not sure I can seriously discuss. Uhhhhhhhhh, I'll leave that one alone! :D

Hey man where'd you get that scar from drinking Dr. Pepper?

[ESPNFan]

I think this part of the article about sums it up - But author Roger I. Abrams has, and he says if baseball bothers to take a look, it would find out that none of what's going on today is new. The only difference is in the way it's being perceived.

The simple fact is - players " cheated " in the best way possible they could back then. It's absolutely no different today.

Bonds " bashers " will just brush off this article by saying " this is just another excuse to defend bonds for his crimes " - Well, if anyone believes that, then so be it. That still doesn't change anything about what the article states.

Oh boy there is one of those "simple fact" statements again.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but in the 1800's I don't think baseball had a rule against using sheep semen. So if there was no rule or law against it (aside form the obvious ones dealing with collection of said product :eek: ) then it certainly wasn't cheating. I guess the "simple fact" was he wasn't cheating at all.

[Astro]

Oh boy there is one of those "simple fact" statements again.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but in the 1800's I don't think baseball had a rule against using sheep semen. So if there was no rule or law against it (aside form the obvious ones dealing with collection of said product :eek: ) then it certainly wasn't cheating. I guess the "simple fact" was he wasn't cheating at all.
Pretty sure there arent any rules against sheep semen now aswell :laugh

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I'm sure there had to be more than hot dogs that Ruth used.

Actually I feel very safe in saying that there wasn't. If there was it would have been mentioned at least once in the thousands of hours I've spent researching him over the years. Not shocking that his name wasn't mentioned in that article either.

[ESPNFan]

Pretty sure there arent any rules against sheep semen now aswell :laugh

We laugh but only because Bill Romanowski isn't around to try to sucker punch us :laugh

[Goooooo]

Wow, what a pathetic story. Sheeps semen, Testosterone, that's sick. It's amazing what athletes do to try and enhance their performance.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Any word on what weight lifting and nutrition program he was on?

[RBi]

We laugh but only because Bill Romanowski isn't around to try to sucker punch us :laugh

OK, 5 minutes after reading this, I stopped laughing long enough to post.


That is the funniest thing I read all week.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This article was good, but doesn't really tell us anything we shouldn't have already known. So a player over a 100 years ago was cheating by taking performance enhancing substances, this really isn't big news to me. Did we all really think that hotdogs and beer was the reason for ruth's explosive HR power ? Or did we really think that ty cobb's .366 batting average was because of ' talent ' alone ? Comeon people, the reality of it is athletes are always looking for an edge. It's been like that forever and will never change.
Let me get this straight any great hitter had to be using something, it couldn't be just talent, ability. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby other greats had to be doing something to boost their performance. Silly is not the word for that kind of thinking, beyond silly.

[Williamsburg2599]

Originally Posted by Stu Macher
This article was good, but doesn't really tell us anything we shouldn't have already known. So a player over a 100 years ago was cheating by taking performance enhancing substances, this really isn't big news to me. Did we all really think that hotdogs and beer was the reason for ruth's explosive HR power ? Or did we really think that ty cobb's .366 batting average was because of ' talent ' alone ? Comeon people, the reality of it is athletes are always looking for an edge. It's been like that forever and will never change.
That' just absoloutly terrible.YES Ruth had natural talent and YES Cobb talent was just talent. You can't be serious, Why not just accuse everybody who ever played the game?! Just because in Today's game we have lieing,skum of the earth cheaters doesn't mean that should take away from greats like Cobb or Ruth.Rediculous.

[RedSoxVT92]

Anyone else notice that when Pud Gavin started useing perfomance enhancing drugs in 1889 his era skyrocketed from 2.63 the year before to 4.17. then in 1890 his era was 4.35 were as his career high in era(not counting 1889) was 3.29. Either he was injured or something or those perfomance enhancing drugs werent very effective.....

[Sser6248dun]

That' just absoloutly terrible.YES Ruth had natural talent and YES Cobb talent was just talent. You can't be serious, Why not just accuse everybody who ever played the game?! Just because in Today's game we have lieing,skum of the earth cheaters doesn't mean that should take away from greats like Cobb or Ruth.Rediculous.

Oh please shut up. Cobb was a piece of **** who probably killed a few people. To doubt that he may have cheated by using performance enhancing drugs is pathetic. You must be racist yourself. As for ruth, he was already caught cheating. Just read the new billjames historical baseball abstract, he explains it in detail. "Taco Of Death", good thread. This is very interesting news.

[Taco De Muerte]

Anyone else notice that when Pud Gavin started useing perfomance enhancing drugs in 1889 his era skyrocketed from 2.63 the year before to 4.17. then in 1890 his era was 4.35 were as his career high in era(not counting 1889) was 3.29. Either he was injured or something or those perfomance enhancing drugs werent very effective.....

Interesting that you would nitpick stats like that. After those 4.00+ ERA seasons, he then posted a few under 3.00 again. It's quite possible that the drugs helped him maintain an elite performance longer than he would of originally without them. Also, it's quite possible that he used before 1889. But nitpicking stats is a terrible way to judge the effects of performance enhancing drugs ona a players stats - I could say that the only year in which sheffield admitted to using steroids was in 2002, his worst season in the past few years. It doesn't mean anything, which proves nitpicking stats to favor your arguement is weak.

[Williamsburg2599]

Oh please shut up. Cobb was a piece of **** who probably killed a few people. To doubt that he may have cheated by using performance enhancing drugs is pathetic. You must be racist yourself. As for ruth, he was already caught cheating. Just read the new billjames historical baseball abstract, he explains it in detail. "Taco Of Death", good thread. This is very interesting news.
I think Cobb was one of the best baseball players all time...so im a rasict?Sure he was a complete A-hole off the field, but a lot of players back then and now where, it doesn't mean they were cheaters.Ive never read historical baseball abstract, how does it prove Ruth cheated? I see that your new to the board,Please read this:http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=15316 and please watch your language.

[Taco De Muerte]

I think Cobb was one of the best baseball players all time...so im a rasict?Sure he was a complete A-hole off the field, but a lot of players back then and now where, it doesn't mean they were cheaters.Ive never read historical baseball abstract, how does it prove Ruth cheated? I see that your new to the board,Please read this:http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=15316 and please watch your language.

This is what you specifically said - Just because in Today's game we have lieing,skum of the earth cheaters doesn't mean that should take away from greats like Cobb or Ruth

Anybody who defends cobb but calls anyone today " scum " is acting ridiculous, IMO.

Also, I don't think anyone accused him of being a " cheater ", though it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. He was a fierce competitor am I correct ?

Also, I don't buy that " everyone was racist backthen " excuse - who cares. Lots of modern day athletes use drugs to " enhance " their performance, should that excuse the players who were caught ?

[Williamsburg2599]

This is what you specifically said - Just because in Today's game we have lieing,skum of the earth cheaters doesn't mean that should take away from greats like Cobb or Ruth

Anybody who defends cobb but calls anyone today " scum " is acting ridiculous, IMO.

Also, I don't think anyone accused him of being a " cheater ", though it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. He was a fierce competitor am I correct ?

Also, I don't buy that " everyone was racist backthen " excuse - who cares. Lots of modern day athletes use drugs to " enhance " their performance, should that excuse the players who were caught ?
I was not defending Cobb off the field, because from what i heard he was a rasict skumbag,but why even start to accuse people of being on the juice when there is NO evidence that even remotly sugests that Cobb was.He was a fierce competitor, but there has been a lot of those in all sports when steriods where avaible at the time that weren't on steriods or that wouldn't take steriods if offered.What I meant was just because we live in the age of steriods were he have people in the game who are on them and denying it doesn't that we should accuse everyone in the present and past of taking them.

[TonyK]

Like RedSoxVt, I noticed the elixir Pud took in 1889 did not seem to have any long-term beneficial effects to his pitching stats. Supposedly it helped him to pitch well in his next game. His career was slipping though and it was over a few seasons later.

What this does is open up a new can of worms. This elixir from various animals was said to have revived injured people, improve strength, increase sexual powers, and prolong one's life. Pud died in 1902 so he must have stopped using it it seems to me. Also, sources say he drank it and he used a mixture from guinea pigs and dogs (Ency. Brittanica). It would be interesting to read more about Pud's experiences.

Next, someone will dig up an article about the effects of herbal medicines on a famous player's career.

[Astro]

Like RedSoxVt, I noticed the elixir Pud took in 1889 did not seem to have any long-term beneficial effects to his pitching stats. Supposedly it helped him to pitch well in his next game. His career was slipping though and it was over a few seasons later.

What this does is open up a new can of worms. This elixir from various animals was said to have revived injured people, improve strength, increase sexual powers, and prolong one's life. Pud died in 1902 so he must have stopped using it it seems to me. Also, sources say he drank it and he used a mixture from guinea pigs and dogs (Ency. Brittanica). It would be interesting to read more about Pud's experiences.

Next, someone will dig up an article about the effects of herbal medicines on a famous player's career.
Many things were sold as elxirs, making outstanding claims such as it will cure anything, improve strength and lengthen ones life....

Some of the old elixirs of this time include: chocolate, coca cola, and swamp root....

Most of the time these "cure alls" did nothing, or if they did do anything it was negative on the body

[Taco De Muerte]

I What I meant was just because we live in the age of steriods were he have people in the game who are on them and denying it doesn't that we should accuse everyone in the present and past of taking them.

So you agree that the steroid witch-hunt going on today is pathetic ?

[Williamsburg2599]

So you agree that the steroid witch-hunt going on today is pathetic ?
Yes, Yes I do. Everyone's repatition should not be rip to shreads just because there are steriod users in the game today.If we accuse Ruth of steriods then we must accuse Bonds of a beer and hotdog binge:D

[Sultan_1895-1948]

As for ruth, he was already caught cheating. Just read the new billjames historical baseball abstract, he explains it in detail.

And although I already had my doubts about his credibility, this is what put it over the top. I will never consider anything James does of any importance if he can't bother to do an ounce of research on something so simple. The worst part is he has many peoples eyes and minds, and puts this garbage out there, giving you blanks to shoot when you try to discredit him. You should move on to the "he drank alcohol during prohibition" theory. Wouldn't be new, and although it's not relevant, it's at least true on the surface.

[ESPNFan]

You know initially this thread was just interesting historical anecdote that is little more than a punchline for a joke but now its basically turned into the standard "players have always cheated so Steroids is no different and not a big deal" argument.

And this use of the term "witch hunt" is ridiculous in terms of players who have actual evidence against them. Bonds and other players like him cheated. Its not a Witch hunt if your looking for evidence.

If anything the real "witch hunt" that's going on is the systematic and arbitrary way people are going back into baseball history looking to sully the reputations of ballplayers in an attempt to justify and condone the cheating of today.

[ESPNFan]

Many things were sold as elxirs, making outstanding claims such as it will cure anything, improve strength and lengthen ones life....

Some of the old elixirs of this time include: chocolate, coca cola, and swamp root....

Most of the time these "cure alls" did nothing, or if they did do anything it was negative on the body

Astro lets say we go back and put an asterisk next to every ballplayer that fell victim to a snake oil salesman right?:rolleyes:

[Taco De Muerte]

And although I already had my doubts about his credibility, this is what put it over the top. I will never consider anything James does of any importance if he can't bother to do an ounce of research on something so simple. The worst part is he has many peoples eyes and minds, and puts this garbage out there, giving you blanks to shoot when you try to discredit him. You should move on to the "he drank alcohol during prohibition" theory. Wouldn't be new, and although it's not relevant, it's at least true on the surface.

What's the actual " truth " about this whole ruth/corked bat issue anyway ?

Because, it does specifically state that ruth corked his bat on pg. 784, in his new historical baseball abstract.

Infact, james even specifically says that ruth " tended to test the limits of the rules a lot ".

[Sultan_1895-1948]

What's the actual " truth " about this whole ruth/corked bat issue anyway ?

Because, it does specifically state that ruth corked his bat on pg. 784, in his new historical baseball abstract.

Infact, james even specifically says that ruth " tended to test the limits of the rules a lot ".

Does it say he corked his bat, or does it explain a museum trip that some people took?

There was no corked bat.

There was a laminated Crawford bat.

There was a bat that he cracked the handle of, and because it was such a favorite bat of his, he tried to repair it with tape and tiny nails. Shows how much players back then knew about physics huh. He continued to use it and during the next game he struck out and slammed it against the ground out of frustration, breaking it for good. Harry Hooper, who was always hounding Babe to use his bat, to no avail, was given the bat by Babe after he broke it. Supposedly hooper donated the bat to a museum later on. I have no idea what museum though.

There was another bat that was purposely toyed with, that was supposed to be a practical joke on Gehrig. Babe and some others messed with the end, so that when a ball struck it, a bunch of crap would come flying out the end. Apparently they did a pretty bad job, or had bad poker faces when they suggested to Gehrig that he use it, because he quickly saw what was up and chuckled as he handed it back to them. Not sure if this bat somehow made it into a museum or not.

James is a boob imo. He can say all he wants, doesn't make it true. Tended to test the limits of the rules? Of society, well, yeah. There's no doubt that his personality was that of a nonconformist who was extremely uninhibited. What this has to do with the ballfield is beyond me. It's a great leap he makes by putting those two together. Was he cheating by eating 2+ hotdogs before most every game, and drinking bicarb of soda after? How bout putting a cabbage under his hat to stay cool. How bout using snuff? Wrapping his pinky around the knob to get more torque? Hmm, can't really see how his personality off the field has anything to do with speculating on him cheating on it. What did he do? I'm always up to learn something new about him. Can you enlighten me?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

What's the actual " truth " about this whole ruth/corked bat issue anyway ?

Because, it does specifically state that ruth corked his bat on pg. 784, in his new historical baseball abstract.

Infact, james even specifically says that ruth " tended to test the limits of the rules a lot ".

How many times must this one be answered. It was not a corked bat, it was a laminated bat, it was not against any rules and Ruth used it for a short period, a few weeks in the 1923 season.

The same type bat was also used by Ken Williams.

[Astro]

Astro lets say we go back and put an asterisk next to every ballplayer that fell victim to a snake oil salesman right?:rolleyes:
You used snake oil before? Gave me the strength of 539 men AND made my dog grow 3 feet in a week, all for just $19.95

[The Big C]

I need to get me some of that.

[jaquish]

That' just absoloutly terrible.YES Ruth had natural talent and YES Cobb talent was just talent. You can't be serious, Why not just accuse everybody who ever played the game?! Just because in Today's game we have lieing,skum of the earth cheaters doesn't mean that should take away from greats like Cobb or Ruth.Rediculous.


u think there werent lying cheating skums in yesterdays game?

[ESPNFan]

How many times must this one be answered. It was not a corked bat, it was a laminated bat, it was not against any rules and Ruth used it for a short period, a few weeks in the 1923 season.

The same type bat was also used by Ken Williams.


I'd say about as many times as you have to explain to ususally the same people that George Bretts home run was ultimately allowed on appeal.

[ESPNFan]

You used snake oil before? Gave me the strength of 539 men AND made my dog grow 3 feet in a week, all for just $19.95

Yes but can you.."Set it and Forget It!"?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

How many times must this one be answered.


As long as that piece of crap James book (at least that one section) is out there, this will always be an issue, and will always be brought up. Which is what makes what he printed all the more irresponsible and unforgivable imo.

[Williamsburg2599]

u think there werent lying cheating skums in yesterdays game?
No I know there was, but not the kind that were filled to the brim with illegal subtances. I doubt that Ruth or Cobb were using as much(if at all) steriods as Bonds.

[Taco De Muerte]

Does it say he corked his bat, or does it explain a museum trip that some people took?

There was no corked bat.

There was a laminated Crawford bat.

There was a bat that he cracked the handle of, and because it was such a favorite bat of his, he tried to repair it with tape and tiny nails. Shows how much players back then knew about physics huh. He continued to use it and during the next game he struck out and slammed it against the ground out of frustration, breaking it for good. Harry Hooper, who was always hounding Babe to use his bat, to no avail, was given the bat by Babe after he broke it. Supposedly hooper donated the bat to a museum later on. I have no idea what museum though.

There was another bat that was purposely toyed with, that was supposed to be a practical joke on Gehrig. Babe and some others messed with the end, so that when a ball struck it, a bunch of crap would come flying out the end. Apparently they did a pretty bad job, or had bad poker faces when they suggested to Gehrig that he use it, because he quickly saw what was up and chuckled as he handed it back to them. Not sure if this bat somehow made it into a museum or not.

James is a boob imo. He can say all he wants, doesn't make it true. Tended to test the limits of the rules? Of society, well, yeah. There's no doubt that his personality was that of a nonconformist who was extremely uninhibited. What this has to do with the ballfield is beyond me. It's a great leap he makes by putting those two together. Was he cheating by eating 2+ hotdogs before most every game, and drinking bicarb of soda after? How bout putting a cabbage under his hat to stay cool. How bout using snuff? Wrapping his pinky around the knob to get more torque? Hmm, can't really see how his personality off the field has anything to do with speculating on him cheating on it. What did he do? I'm always up to learn something new about him. Can you enlighten me?

Fair enough.

BTW, I hope you know that I never said it was a fact that ruth corked his bat - When I first mentioned Ruth's corkedbat I put in parenthesis ( according to james atleast).

[Taco De Muerte]

No I know there was, but not the kind that were filled to the brim with illegal subtances. I doubt that Ruth or Cobb were using as much(if at all) steriods as Bonds.

Actually, most steroid users cycle while working out to get the best benefits. Different types do different things, and I believe it can also be addicting like many drugs.

Still, just because someone cheats " less " than someone-else doesn't excuse that person at all.

[Williamsburg2599]

Actually, most steroid users cycle while working out to get the best benefits. Different types do different things, and I believe it can also be addicting like many drugs.

Still, just because someone cheats " less " than someone-else doesn't excuse that person at all.
But just because someone cheats a lot doesn't mean we should go back into the record books and rip apart the greats.

[Taco De Muerte]

But just because someone cheats a lot doesn't mean we should go back into the record books and rip apart the greats.

" cheats a lot " ?

What don't you get about the fact that steroid users have to cycle ?

As for " ripping apart the greats " - nobodies doing that, we are just pointing out the facts.

This whole " today's players are demons and the oldtimers were perfect " attitude needs to stop right now.

It's called being realistic.

[TonyK]

Many things were sold as elxirs, making outstanding claims such as it will cure anything, improve strength and lengthen ones life....

Some of the old elixirs of this time include: chocolate, coca cola, and swamp root....

Most of the time these "cure alls" did nothing, or if they did do anything it was negative on the body

I recall old-timey newspapers advertising elixirs quite a bit too. Since Pud didn't improve his pitching after 1889 this elixir can't be credited with very much. It is interesting that there are two different versions of how he ingested it, and two different animals as the source of the elixir.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Yea, nothing like a few beers to boost performance, quicken my reflexes. Babe and Hack Wilson they knew the secret. Not much comparison here when the subject is which would be of more benefit to a player. Alcohol, compared to steroids that turn some in to the Michilin Man.

Not talking legality here, drinking during prohibition, they were law breakers but talking about which one would maybe boost performance in most cases, steroids.

[Goooooo]

Incredible responses from this thread. Theese people actually think that ruth, cobb, wagner, etc never once tried to improve their games by cheating.

It's time to come to reality.

[ESPNFan]

" cheats a lot " ?

What don't you get about the fact that steroid users have to cycle ?

As for " ripping apart the greats " - nobodies doing that, we are just pointing out the facts.

This whole " today's players are demons and the oldtimers were perfect " attitude needs to stop right now.

It's called being realistic.

Wait a minute. Your honestly trying to say that when steroid users are cycling off the drugs so that their body can reestablish natural levels of hormones (probably done with other drugs like Clomid etc..) their not cheating? Cycling is how steroids are supposed to be taken. Thats "how you cheat" with them. You honestly want us to be "realistic" while your trying to say that because the steroid users have to cycle they aren't cheating for that period?

Man thats not only reaching but really calling in to question your credibility. Your basicly talking out of both sides of your mouth on this issue.

[Taco De Muerte]

Wait a minute. Your honestly trying to say that when steroid users are cycling off the drugs so that their body can reestablish natural levels of hormones (probably done with other drugs like Clomid etc..) their not cheating? Cycling is how steroids are supposed to be taken. Thats "how you cheat" with them. You honestly want us to be "realistic" while your trying to say that because the steroid users have to cycle they aren't cheating for that period?

Man thats not only reaching but really calling in to question your credibility. Your basicly talking out of both sides of your mouth on this issue.

Boy, it seems like you have something to say or criticize about everything I post.

Do you spend time waiting for me to sign on just so you can go to every single threadI post on and respond to every single post of mine ?

Comeon man, this obsession needs to stop.

Please show me ONE post where I said taking steroids wasn't cheating, or where I supposedly said that because steroid users cycle they aren't cheating for " that period ". Please show me ONE.

If not, then your entire misguided post is invalid.

[Taco De Muerte]

I recall old-timey newspapers advertising elixirs quite a bit too. Since Pud didn't improve his pitching after 1889 this elixir can't be credited with very much. It is interesting that there are two different versions of how he ingested it, and two different animals as the source of the elixir.

This logic is terrible. I guess Tom House Didn't cheat because he was a " failed experiment ", because according to him, horse steroids and amphetamines didn't help him.

[ESPNFan]

Boy, it seems like you have something to say or criticize about everything I post.

Do you spend time waiting for me to sign on just so you can go to every single threadI post on and respond to every single post of mine ?

Comeon man, this obsession needs to stop.

Please show me ONE post where I said taking steroids wasn't cheating, or where I supposedly said that because steroid users cycle they aren't cheating for " that period ". Please show me ONE.

If not, then your entire misguided post is invalid.

When you make questionable statements people are going to call you out. Its as simple as that.

Ok so if your not saying that Steroid users "aren't cheating" when they are cycling off the drugs then what exactly are you saying? Your telling us "what don't you get about cycling" So please tell us what were not getting. Because that's exactly what your alluding to.

[ESPNFan]

This logic is terrible. I guess Tom House Didn't cheat because he was a " failed experiment ", because according to him, horse steroids and amphetamines didn't help him.

Taco this is exactly the type of statement I'm talking about. You compare a guy who took some thing that possibly happened to have a product of sheep testicles in it and try to equate it with Tom House taking Steroids.

What Tony K said was that because Pud's perfromance didn't improve its validity as a perfromance enhancer was questionable as well as its origins as there are inconsistancies in what this actually made or how it was injested.

This is very different from what Tom House had told us about his Steroid use. Even though he said his fastball didn't improve he did start to take steroids in the minors and then was promoted to the majors. That right there is a improvement that according to Tony K, Pud never experienced while taking the elixir.
According to him he took Dianabol, which did in fact work very well for him in terms of putting on musclemass, causeing his 5'9" body weight to jump from 185lbs to 225lbs. How is this not working? Is their evidence of Pud gaining 40 lbs of muscle?

And as I have said before what helped House is very much in question because his pitching and conditioning business is based on body wide strength training. If house came out and said that Steroids helped him make it to the bigleagues he would not only ruin his reputation as a pitching coach/strength trainer, but also undermine his own line of products.

[TonyK]

ESPNFan: Thanks for saying it for me.

I'm not sure what Taco really knows about the substance Pud Galvin took or it's history either. Since there are disagreements about what did happen, I'd hope someone would research it before jumping to any conclusions or professing to be an authority on the subject.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

We have to remember the time period we're talking about, and what these guys knew. Lefty Gomez I believe it was, tried to cure an ailing arm by letting bees sting it. He thought this would make it better. If there was something available back then, don't you think he would have tried it? And this was in the '30's.

Cobb didn't look for an edge to cheat, he looked for an edge though. He put lead in his cleats during practice to strengthen his legs, he was the first to swing more than one bat in the on deck circle, realizing that when just one was left, it felt lighter. He also hiked up mountains in the offseason with weighted boots to strengthen his legs. The point is, these cheating methods just weren't around, and the technology/knowledge just wasn't there to take advantage of it, even if it were. Babe would use a medicine ball and box at the gym, and work on the farm to get in shape.

I think we need to stop looking to excuse today's players, by trying to discredit old timers because they drank some magic potion. Pretty absurd. Is Bonds getting some heat partly because of his surly attitude, sure. Is he getting even more heat because he's approaching hallowed numbers, definately. From what I've read on here though, most understand it's not just Bonds that needs to be focused on, and this problem goes back at least a couple decades. Nobody is denying that. It is what it is. Baseball had their fun and made their money, and now the S is hitting the fan. I think baseball has responded by altering the compression specs of their baseballs, for whatever reason, but that's another issue altogether.

[Taco De Muerte]

When you make questionable statements people are going to call you out. Its as simple as that.

Ok so if your not saying that Steroid users "aren't cheating" when they are cycling off the drugs then what exactly are you saying? Your telling us "what don't you get about cycling" So please tell us what were not getting. Because that's exactly what your alluding to.

Just as I thought, Reading what you want to read.

You simply cannot find a post of mine where I said steroids wasn't cheating, or that cycling isn't cheating. Hell, you can't even find a post where I " alluded " to that.

You go on ignore kiddo. You are Nothing but a waste of time.

[Taco De Muerte]

ESPNFan: Thanks for saying it for me.

I'm not sure what Taco really knows about the substance Pud Galvin took or it's history either. Since there are disagreements about what did happen, I'd hope someone would research it before jumping to any conclusions or professing to be an authority on the subject.

He really didn't say anything for you.

You still haven't given me reason to why what gavin did should be excused, because you claim it didn't help him ?

Please, Gary Sheffield claimed steroids didn't help him, but that still doesn't change the fact that he tried to cheat.

[ESPNFan]

Just as I thought, Reading what you want to read.

You simply cannot find a post of mine where I said steroids wasn't cheating, or that cycling isn't cheating. Hell, you can't even find a post where I " alluded " to that.

You go on ignore kiddo. You are Nothing but a waste of time.

I responded to a post where you alluded to it. It's that simple.

If thats how you want to respond go ahead be I'm sure I'm not alone in seeing that like many of your other posts you have just resorted to another diversionary argument to distract from the fact that your not only wrong but unable to intelligently defend your reactionary statements.

[TonyK]

So Taco what are your conclusions about Pud Galvin's use of the elixir? Was he looking to gain an edge for the rest of the 1889 season, was he intending to use it for the next four seasons, or was he hoping it would help him recover from an injury?

One article I read mentioned it was nicknamed the "Fountain of Youth".

How do you account for the different versions of the method he used to ingest it, and why don't we even know which animal(s) sperm was being used?

You began this thread so I am hoping you can clarify these points and then maybe we will all know more about what Pud was up to?

[ESPNFan]

So Taco what are your conclusions about Pud Galvin's use of the elixir? Was he looking to gain an edge for the rest of the 1889 season, was he intending to use it for the next four seasons, or was he hoping it would help him recover from an injury?

One article I read mentioned it was nicknamed the "Fountain of Youth".

How do you account for the different versions of the method he used to ingest it, and why don't we even know which animal(s) sperm was being used?

You began this thread so I am hoping you can clarify these points and then maybe we will all know more about what Pud was up to?

Tonk ask and you shall recieve.

Taken from an Editorial written for the Americal Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry:

One of the most noted providers of the rejuvenating injections was the famous French physiologist and Harvard Professor, Charles Edouard Brown-Séquard. In 1889, scientists assembled to listen to the renowned 72-year-old speaker, who described how he had injected himself, into his leg, with filtered extracts from crushed testicles of young dogs and guinea pigs. The results, he emphasized to them, were remarkable. Not only did medical tests indicate that he had renewed muscle strength, but, the physiology professor reported, he had regained the vigor and intellectual stamina of his youth, as well. His capacity to work in his laboratory long into the night, even running up staircases, was restored. But, best of all, just hours earlier, he passed the culminating test: "Today, I was able to pay a visit to my young wife."

The key to longevity, Brown-Séquard asserted, lay in correcting hormonal balance by infusing minced gonads and maintaining carefully calibrated semen reserves. His presentation caused a sensation, and a stampede of eager, aging Frenchmen availed themselves of his pioneering technique. He constructed a complicated machine that pulped and filtered bull testes to produce his claimed rejuvenating fluid. A Parisian newspaper initiated a fund for an "Institute of Rejuvenation" to improve access to the "Méthode Séquardienne." Meanwhile, the scientific community reacted mercilessly, ridiculing Brown-Séquard's celebrated results as senile delusions. The critics held the day. No one recovered lost youth and potency from Séquardienne treatments. Whatever positive manifestations had been described were attributed to the effect of positive expectations—what we now understand as placebo effects. The six-feet-four-inch-tall professor suffered severely in scientific stature. His career falling apart (and deserted by his young wife), he left Paris, dying of a stroke less than 5 years after his fateful lecture.

http://ajgponline.org/cgi/content/full/6/3/185

So we have now 4 animals he reportedly used: Sheep, Dogs Guinea pigs and Bulls. And now we also know that Testosterone wasn't "extracted" so much as the male testies were pulped or crushed. And we also now have a pertty good idea, that despite the claims of Brown-Séquard, the substance helped nobody.

Tony, much like you claimed, this seems to be no different than the other "youth elixirs" of that time period. What makes this a good story is the ingedients in the elixir and the fact that there is documentation that a Baseball player took it.

I'd venture to guess its probably as performance enhancing as a plate full of Rocky-Mountain "Oysters". :laugh

[TonyK]

Tonk ask and you shall recieve.

Taken from an Editorial written for the Americal Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry:



http://ajgponline.org/cgi/content/full/6/3/185

So we have now 4 animals he reportedly used: Sheep, Dogs Guinea pigs and Bulls. And now we also know that Testosterone wasn't "extracted" so much as the male testies were pulped or crushed. And we also now have a pertty good idea, that despite the claims of Brown-Séquard, the substance helped nobody.

Tony, much like you claimed, this seems to be no different than the other "youth elixirs" of that time period. What makes this a good story is the ingedients in the elixir and the fact that there is documentation that a Baseball player took it.

I'd venture to guess its probably as performance enhancing as a plate full of Rocky-Mountain "Oysters". :laugh

I couldn't find Minced Gonads anywhere at the local Health Foods store. If a 72-yr old Harvard professor tried to help a ML pitcher in 1889, then maybe there are more cases like this out there? Wasn't the author of the OP writing about Cheaters in Baseball?

I think there were even more animals that he used. There are more articles written about this from what I saw on Google.

[Taco De Muerte]

So Taco what are your conclusions about Pud Galvin's use of the elixir? Was he looking to gain an edge for the rest of the 1889 season, was he intending to use it for the next four seasons, or was he hoping it would help him recover from an injury?

One article I read mentioned it was nicknamed the "Fountain of Youth".

How do you account for the different versions of the method he used to ingest it, and why don't we even know which animal(s) sperm was being used?

You began this thread so I am hoping you can clarify these points and then maybe we will all know more about what Pud was up to?

I havent really done any research on the products he took, havent had the time. Hell, I came across this article a a few days ago while researching something on concerta.

Still, my point was/is, that his intention was to cheat, therefore just because the products might of not worked for him doesn't excuse him in any way.

[HitchedtoaSpark]

This may be the most ridiculous thread in the history of Baseball Fever.

[Captain Cold Nose]

This may be the most ridiculous thread in the history of Baseball Fever.
Check out the Web Improvements forum.
Seriously, man, surely the whole site hasn't turned you off to the extent that this is all you're going to post now. I understand why you're turned off. Why not help in turning the tide?

[jaquish]

" cheats a lot " ?

What don't you get about the fact that steroid users have to cycle ?

As for " ripping apart the greats " - nobodies doing that, we are just pointing out the facts.

This whole " today's players are demons and the oldtimers were perfect " attitude needs to stop right now.

It's called being realistic.

AMEN!! somebody finally is thinking properly

[The Big C]

All these steroids conversations tend to go in circles of
a: steroids are cheating
b: baseball players have always cheated
a: steroids are much more effective forms of cheating and are of a completely different magnitude
b: the intention is the same, to gain an edge
a: but the edge gained by most of the old time forms of cheating was simply the psychological placebo effect
b: but the intent was still the same, and that is what matters
etc.

It seems to happen on just about all the topics. Neither side is willing to make any concessions, and it leads to the same thing every time. I would have to say that I am of the opinion that steroids require the most attention because they are the current thing, and they impact the game the most, but the other forms of cheating should not be taken lightly. Basically, I try to straddle the fence as best as I can.

[Taco De Muerte]

This may be the most ridiculous thread in the history of Baseball Fever.

Coming from someone that has a Ty Cobb avatar, I'll take that as a compliment.

[Taco De Muerte]

All these steroids conversations tend to go in circles of
a: steroids are cheating
b: baseball players have always cheated
a: steroids are much more effective forms of cheating and are of a completely different magnitude
b: the intention is the same, to gain an edge
a: but the edge gained by most of the old time forms of cheating was simply the psychological placebo effect
b: but the intent was still the same, and that is what matters
etc.

It seems to happen on just about all the topics. Neither side is willing to make any concessions, and it leads to the same thing every time. I would have to say that I am of the opinion that steroids require the most attention because they are the current thing, and they impact the game the most, but the other forms of cheating should not be taken lightly. Basically, I try to straddle the fence as best as I can.

I agree with most of this post. Though steroid's benefits are greatly overrated by the casual fan.

[ESPNFan]

I havent really done any research on the products he took, havent had the time. Hell, I came across this article a a few days ago while researching something on concerta.

Still, my point was/is, that his intention was to cheat, therefore just because the products might of not worked for him doesn't excuse him in any way.

Well your simply wrong because there were no laws in baseball or, to my knowledge, in the America legal system at the time.

So his intention was not to cheat because it wasn't against the rules. The fact that there were no laws or rules against it makes your contention uneducated.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Though steroid's benefits are greatly overrated by the casual fan.

What do they not do, that "casual fans" think they do?

[Taco De Muerte]

What do they not do, that "casual fans" think they do?

Sultan - We've had this arguement over and over already. On already two different threads. Let's just leave it at that. You have your opinion, I have mine.

[Taco De Muerte]

Here's an article on elixir of Brown-Sequard, which pud used.

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/usdisp/organs.html

Also, here's an interesting tidbit from another article.

The Washington Post all but pushed the drug in an article from 1889:

"If there still be doubting Thomases who concede no virtue of the elixir, they are respectfully referred to Galvin's record in yesterday's Boston-Pittsburgh game. It is the best proof yet furnished of the value of the discovery."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5314753

[Mattingly]

Taco,

If some slugger swallowed some testicles from sheep, bulls (bovine), horses and other animals, would that be considered illegal right now?

Right now, I'm more concerned with whether the substance is illegal, as in "outside of the limits of substances acceptable for use", rather than just enhancing one's performance. As an exagerrated example, if I drink one of the sports drinks found over the counter or added some sugar to my water, I'd obviously be doing much better than if I'd drank tap water by itself. That, in of itself, doesn't make my sports shake or sweetened water a performance enhancer, per se.

Your npr.com article is interesting, I'll say that.

[Taco De Muerte]

Taco,

If some slugger swallowed some testicles from sheep, bulls (bovine), horses and other animals, would that be considered illegal right now?

Right now, I'm more concerned with whether the substance is illegal, as in "outside of the limits of substances acceptable for use", rather than just enhancing one's performance. As an exagerrated example, if I drink one of the sports drinks found over the counter or added some sugar to my water, I'd obviously be doing much better than if I'd drank tap water by itself. That, in of itself, doesn't make my sports shake or sweetened water a performance enhancer, per se.

Your npr.com article is interesting, I'll say that.

Mattingly, I see what your saying, and I agree. But when someone points out that certain players used anabolics before it was illegal in baseball, others say " It's still cheating, because they used it to get an edge over their opponents ".

Well, isn't that what pud was doing ?

[TonyK]

I havent really done any research on the products he took, havent had the time. Hell, I came across this article a a few days ago while researching something on concerta.

Still, my point was/is, that his intention was to cheat, therefore just because the products might of not worked for him doesn't excuse him in any way.

Until we actually know the reason why Pud took the elixir how can we judge him 117 years later?

I would love to know how he performed in that Boston game, and how he did for the rest of the season. Wouldn't it stand to reason that other ball players might have read the article and asked him about his gonad frappe? Did the newspapers from both cities mention Pud's elixir in their writeups? What did Pud have to say about it?

For all we know Pud was on something before 1889 when he had his greatest seasons.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan - We've had this arguement over and over already. On already two different threads. Let's just leave it at that. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Mr. Muerte, that was a sincere question. I really would like to hear your thoughts, on what you think the casual fans thinks steroids do, that they really don't do?

From talking to a couple casual fans here and there, I got the impression they understand that you take them, and they dramatically increase your ability to strength train. None claimed they could make you fly, or shoot lasers out your eyeballs.

[ESPNFan]

And If I could also add that there is written evidence of baseballs attitude towards steroids since 1991 when the first memo was issued. And in addition to that there were federal laws agisnt Steroids as well.

There were no laws, baseball or otherwise, agisnt "testicle elixirs" and I would be very surprised to see if MLB had "pulped Testicles of Guinea Pigs" on its current banned substances list. :)

[CanadianFan]

Wow, this thread us funny. Sheeps semen, you can't compare that to anabolic steroids.

Ftr, I'm no ' bonds hater ' or anything like that, but to compare sheeps semen to steroids is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Though i see where ' taco ' is sort of coming from. Pud took the best stuff he had at the time. It seems pretty likely that if he was born today, he would of experimented with the roids many athletes experiment with today.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Wow, this thread us funny. Sheeps semen, you can't compare that to anabolic steroids.

Ftr, I'm no ' bonds hater ' or anything like that, but to compare sheeps semen to steroids is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Though i see where ' taco ' is sort of coming from. Pud took the best stuff he had at the time. It seems pretty likely that if he was born today, he would of experimented with the roids many athletes experiment with today.

Exclamation points,

You stated that the comparison is completely ridiculous, and then proceed to state that Pud would have tried steroids today. You don't see the contradiction in that? :confused:

[CanadianFan]

Exclamation points,

You stated that the comparison is completely ridiculous, and then proceed to state that Pud would have tried steroids today. You don't see the contradiction in that? :confused:

Sultan, comparing it's benefits is ridiculous, but I see where he or she is coming from. If Pud injected himself with sheep semen (:confused: ) Why would he not inject himself with some Human growth hormone ?

[ESPNFan]

Sultan, comparing it's benefits is ridiculous, but I see where he or she is coming from. If Pud injected himself with sheep semen (:confused: ) Why would he not inject himself with some Human growth hormone ?

Because the Sheep semen represented suedo-science that was acceptable at the time and not agisnt any rules or laws.
Using HGH to increase performance in sports is agisnt both MLB and Criminal laws.

If you wanted to make a accurate comparision you could say that Pud would have most likely taken the latest and greatest GNC products that touted amazing resluts. Both are legal. Both would promise amazing perfromance with little proof or track record.

Pud turning to HGH is not only a perfromance enhancement question but a moral decision as well. And unless you can read the mind of a man dead for around 100 years then you can't make an accurate judgement on what he would or wouldn't do morally. Its just short of character assassination to speculate that a player, using something legal and of dubious performance enhancing value, would blatantly cheat today.

[Taco De Muerte]

Mr. Muerte, that was a sincere question. I really would like to hear your thoughts, on what you think the casual fans thinks steroids do, that they really don't do?

From talking to a couple casual fans here and there, I got the impression they understand that you take them, and they dramatically increase your ability to strength train. None claimed they could make you fly, or shoot lasers out your eyeballs.

Sultan, the casual fan believes steroids are some sort of miracle drug that can turn you into superman with a few injections.

Do steroids help ? - Sure, they could make you a better athlete quicker if you properly use them with a proper workout regimen and a healthy diet, but let's be realistic here, they aren't the samething like what the green goblin took in the first spiderman.

[Taco De Muerte]

Until we actually know the reason why Pud took the elixir how can we judge him 117 years later?

I would love to know how he performed in that Boston game, and how he did for the rest of the season. Wouldn't it stand to reason that other ball players might have read the article and asked him about his gonad frappe? Did the newspapers from both cities mention Pud's elixir in their writeups? What did Pud have to say about it?

For all we know Pud was on something before 1889 when he had his greatest seasons.

Fair enough. Agree to Disagree. I just don't see why would somebody inject sheeps semen and testerone if he wasn't looking for a competitive edge.

[ESPNFan]

Fair enough. Agree to Disagree. I just don't see why would somebody inject sheeps semen and testerone if he wasn't looking for a competitive edge.

Looking for a competitive edge is one thing. Cheating is another.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan, comparing it's benefits is ridiculous, but I see where he or she is coming from. If Pud injected himself with sheep semen (:confused: ) Why would he not inject himself with some Human growth hormone ?

ESPN echoed my thoughts in his response. The leap is far too big to make imo, there's just no way to know, or to even say "it's very likely." The moral decision, health risks, commitment, money, and energy that needs to go into steroids, put it into another stratosphere imo.

Sultan, the casual fan believes steroids are some sort of miracle drug that can turn you into superman with a few injections.

Wow, who have you been talking to? :eek: Are these the same peolple who believe that it actually rains "cats and dogs?" :confused:

[Mattingly]

Mattingly, I see what your saying, and I agree. But when someone points out that certain players used anabolics before it was illegal in baseball, others say " It's still cheating, because they used it to get an edge over their opponents ".

Well, isn't that what pud was doing ?
Actually, anabolic steroids have been illegal in the USA and many sports for quite some time now. Arnold Schwarzenegger was criticized some 35 years ago for having used these, as the breakout movie, "Pumping Iron" aired in 1971. In additional, many Olympians have also been accused of having illegally used these, and the Soviet athletes were often accused of this.

If you were in the Olympics and used anabolic steroids, you were booted out, your records removed. Same for tennis, swimming, ice skating, bicyling, NFL, NBA, etc. The main point I'm making is that in *SOME* organized sport, be it pro or amateur, if it's illegal, then it's a no-no.

Now looking back to the sheep, bovine or other semen, I've never known that to be illegal, as in one could be arrested for possession and/or distribution of this. Have you ever known that in any law in the USA, possession and/or distribution of farm animal semen was illegal, and one could be tried in a court of law? If not, then I don't believe it meets the very same criteria of "illegal", unlike the long-time illegality of anabolic steroids.

I think it was Jose Canseco who'd gotten arrested and forced under house arrest for having received some anabolic steroids package.

[Mattingly]

Looking for a competitive edge is one thing. Cheating is another.
Exactly. If I get up earlier in the morning and do my exercise, that could be a competitive advantage. If I study past tests when I'm working on a college finals, that's a competitive advantage. However, if I look over the shoulder of a smarter student and copy his/her answers, that's blatant cheating.

I'm not even sure what the semen of barn animals would actually even do, and quite frankly, this may actually be some old folk tale. I'm a doubter, so that's why I act this way.

I have no idea how injecting this, drinking this or however it's taken, would constitute cheating. If someone wishes to drink the blood of a cow, if that helps them, I'd say more power to them, but unless that substance is considered illegal, I wouldn't say it's "cheating", at least from my viewpoint.

[DTF955]

I have no idea how injecting this, drinking this or however it's taken, would constitute cheating. If someone wishes to drink the blood of a cow, if that helps them, I'd say more power to them, but unless that substance is considered illegal, I wouldn't say it's "cheating", at least from my viewpoint.

And that's where the whole problem lies in some of these debates. While I found it interesting to skim this (and downright weird - I can't really type the sheep stuff without sophomoric giggling :-) I found the same thing that seems to skip over those who are involved.

One person defines "cheating" as "gaining an edge." Another defines it as "doing something illegal to gain an edge." Some might say "doing something illegal or immoral to gain an edge."

Defining the terms is sometimes the hardest part in these debates - and sometimes it's the only thing the debate is about.

[Mattingly]

And that's where the whole problem lies in some of these debates. While I found it interesting to skim this (and downright weird - I can't really type the sheep stuff without sophomoric giggling :-) I found the same thing that seems to skip over those who are involved.

One person defines "cheating" as "gaining an edge." Another defines it as "doing something illegal to gain an edge." Some might say "doing something illegal or immoral to gain an edge."

Defining the terms is sometimes the hardest part in these debates - and sometimes it's the only thing the debate is about.I'd obviously choose the "illegal" thing as cheating i that gave an advantage. As to the "moral", I do believe that anyone who's taken anabolic steroids has already made their own "moral rose bed" and should therefore be forced to lie in this, thorns and all.

I made an allusion to the difference when I'd described the college testing methods. I'll give more examples:

Th 1st student studies like heck, crams, perhaps even joins a study group where other students will ask each other questions. This surely gives an advantage over the student who doesn't fully understand the subject matter, has nobody to bounce ideas off, nor explain the basic premise of some of the subject's dealings, nor perhaps even lending a study book over the weekend to/from.

The 2nd student peeks over a brighter student's should and steals their answers.

The 3rd student has gotten the answers from the test preparation company and has written them into their pen or something (from how the SAT test answers were stolen many years ago).

The 1st seems to be my way of a competitive advantage, could likely even be encouraged by the student. The 2nd and 3rd are blatant cheating, since you can have your test results thrown out for this. It's plainly illegal, and if caught, you may face suspension or expulsion from one's school.

I would never drink or inject any farm animal semen (I too have trouble typing that in), but to me, it seems like either a tale of yore about this, or if Pud told the truth about what he consumed, then it's like snake oil. I have no idea how the "stuff" of some farm animal could possibly help a human being. Would the "stuff" of a clydesdale (horse) help him out moreso than that of a chihuahua?

In either case, that elixir is more of the "out there" and strange one. It's not like some sheriff will be banging on your door for trafficking in animal "stuff". However, if you've got anabolic steroids, cocaine or other illegal drugs in your possession, expect to be handcuffed, given a court date, and please obtain the services of a good lawyer.

[Bench 5]

This isn't the only time a pro athlete consumed animal sperm to gain an edge. Woody Harrelson downed a bucket of bull semen in "Kingpen" and as I recall he won the bowling competition. They should have tested him!!:lookitup

I looked at a few articles on Proquest circa 1889 and the Brown-Sequard Elixir was promoted as the cure to stop aging. It was considered a miracle drug for a short time I think it's obvious that Galvin was using it to improve his performance and improve his health. But thousands of other people at the time tried it as the cure for their ails. It turned out to be a sham.

It's no different than most of the stuff that they sell in the back of magazines today. You can buy all sorts of non-FDA approved pills that promise to give you incredible strength and cure your ails.

Rather than look at him as the first to use "performance enhancers" I look at him as a human guinea pig. Injecting yourself with animal extracts is dangerous. Unlike the juiceheads of today people in the 1800s didn't have the same level of knowledge that we have to know what's healthy and what isn't.

[ESPNFan]

This isn't the only time a pro athlete consumed animal sperm to gain an edge. Woody Harrelson downed a bucket of bull semen in "Kingpen" and as I recall he won the bowling competition. They should have tested him!!:lookitup .

See now you went and did it. You have given the conspiricay theorists the smoking gun they have always wanted! Roger Clemens was also in King Pin. Now were going to have to listen to post after post about how this movie came out in 1996 and he could have seen Woody's bull semen enhancement and used it himself to get the edge he needed. Look at that stats, since that time he's been unstoppabull. Do you think they will just pass it off as coincidence that Roger got older he Mooooooved to Texas?
You know I thought that Bill Murray's brilliant performance as Ernie McKracken that was aided by his performance enhancing trick hair piece would be enough to throw the enhancement hounds off Rogers trail. Well now they have the goods on both the "Crawford Toupe" and the Rockets secret fuel. I can hear their keyboards banging away at character assassination speed now......

[TonyK]

See now you went and did it. You have given the conspiricay theorists the smoking gun they have always wanted! Roger Clemens was also in King Pin. Now were going to have to listen to post after post about how this movie came out in 1996 and he could have seen Woody's bull semen enhancement and used it himself to get the edge he needed. Look at that stats, since that time he's been unstoppabull. Do you think they will just pass it off as coincidence that Roger got older he Mooooooved to Texas?
You know I thought that Bill Murray's brilliant performance as Ernie McKracken that was aided by his performance enhancing trick hair piece would be enough to throw the enhancement hounds off Rogers trail. Well now they have the goods on both the "Crawford Toupe" and the Rockets secret fuel. I can hear their keyboards banging away at character assassination speed now......

I shouldn't mention what Roger says to Woody H. and Bill M. when you play "Kingpin" backwards. I'll have to keep it a secret until Roger wins his 512th game by pitching his 20th no hitter. ;-)

[Taco De Muerte]

Actually, anabolic steroids have been illegal in the USA and many sports for quite some time now. Arnold Schwarzenegger was criticized some 35 years ago for having used these, as the breakout movie, "Pumping Iron" aired in 1971. In additional, many Olympians have also been accused of having illegally used these, and the Soviet athletes were often accused of this.

If you were in the Olympics and used anabolic steroids, you were booted out, your records removed. Same for tennis, swimming, ice skating, bicyling, NFL, NBA, etc. The main point I'm making is that in *SOME* organized sport, be it pro or amateur, if it's illegal, then it's a no-no.

Now looking back to the sheep, bovine or other semen, I've never known that to be illegal, as in one could be arrested for possession and/or distribution of this. Have you ever known that in any law in the USA, possession and/or distribution of farm animal semen was illegal, and one could be tried in a court of law? If not, then I don't believe it meets the very same criteria of "illegal", unlike the long-time illegality of anabolic steroids.

I think it was Jose Canseco who'd gotten arrested and forced under house arrest for having received some anabolic steroids package.

Mattingly, I see where your coming from, and I don't agree.

So taking illegal drugs is cheating, am i correct ?

So tim raines, paul molitor, and other coke heads are " cheaters " because they snorted the stuff when it was illegal in the US ?

What about ruth drinking during Prohibition ?

I mean comeon, it's pretty obvious that he was looking to enhance his performance - injecting himself with sheeps semen and testosrone ?

I don't think he was doing it because it felt good...

[Taco De Muerte]

This isn't the only time a pro athlete consumed animal sperm to gain an edge. Woody Harrelson downed a bucket of bull semen in "Kingpen" and as I recall he won the bowling competition. They should have tested him!!:lookitup

I looked at a few articles on Proquest circa 1889 and the Brown-Sequard Elixir was promoted as the cure to stop aging. It was considered a miracle drug for a short time I think it's obvious that Galvin was using it to improve his performance and improve his health. But thousands of other people at the time tried it as the cure for their ails. It turned out to be a sham.

It's no different than most of the stuff that they sell in the back of magazines today. You can buy all sorts of non-FDA approved pills that promise to give you incredible strength and cure your ails.

Rather than look at him as the first to use "performance enhancers" I look at him as a human guinea pig. Injecting yourself with animal extracts is dangerous. Unlike the juiceheads of today people in the 1800s didn't have the same level of knowledge that we have to know what's healthy and what isn't.

I agree with all of this. Though pud not knowing what he was " doing " shouldn't excuse him, IMO. It was obvious that he was looking to cheat. Should Gary Sheffield be excused because he claimed he didn't know he was taking steroids ?

[Mattingly]

Mattingly, I see where your coming from, and I don't agree.

So taking illegal drugs is cheating, am i correct ?

So tim raines, paul molitor, and other coke heads are " cheaters " because they snorted the stuff when it was illegal in the US ?

What about ruth drinking during Prohibition ?

I mean comeon, it's pretty obvious that he was looking to enhance his performance - injecting himself with sheeps semen and testosrone ?

I don't think he was doing it because it felt good...
By "illegal drugs", I mean anything of the narcotic variety, or anything that's known as a PED. Be it anabolic steroids, HGH, and/or any of the so-called "designer drugs" out there which are illegal in one popular sport or the next, such as NHL, NFL, NBA, IOC, USPGA, etc. This would also include athletic sports such as skiing, bicycling, skating, gymnastics, etc.

As to narcotics themselves, as you'd mentioned cocaine, I'm not sure what performance adantage can be gained by this, so I wouldn't say it's "cheating". However, those drugs are clearly illegal, and if you use and/or sell them, you can be arrested, tried, and you can be banned as an athlete.

As to Ruth and Prohibition, quite a few people drank during Prohibition. Does the word "moonshine" mean anything to you? I'm not sure what the performance enhancement was of this, but it was also illegal, as one could be arrested for it prior to 1920.

As to Pud's experimental injections or other consumption of farm animal semen, I have no idea whether that even worked one bit, but I'd imagine that sheep semen wouldn't be one bit different now than then. Since I've never known this to be illegal by USA law, nor have I ever heard of any performance advantages of using this, then I can't see how it's a performance-enhancing drug. In fact, I don't see how sheep semen even qualifies as a drug itself.

If a player takes HGH, which is clearly an illegal PED, then that's both an illegal drug, as one can be arrested and brought to trail for its consumption and/or possession, as well as something which has been shown to enhance performance.

I'm not a medical doctor, so the various narcotics people take--such as heroin, marijuana, cocaine (including its "crack" derivative), LSD, etc--I'm not sure what possible performance enhancements they have. However, since these are all banned by the IOC, I would frown upon their use.

[Mattingly]

I agree with all of this. Though pud not knowing what he was " doing " shouldn't excuse him, IMO. It was obvious that he was looking to cheat. Should Gary Sheffield be excused because he claimed he didn't know he was taking steroids ?
I think the fact that these animal sperm wasn't proven to enhance one's performance, nor this being considered a "drug", nor being illegal to possess and/or sell, disqualifies this in its entirety as a PED. It's never (to my knowledge) been proven to enhance one's performance over the course of many players, is not considered an illegal drug.

As to Gary Sheffield and his allegations that he didn't know what he was taking, that's debatable. Bonds said he didn't knowingly take any "cream" or "clear", and people will also have doubts about his truthfulness on this.

What I've never heard being debatable is whether or not the drugs that Sheffield--like Bonds--have been accused of using were illegal PEDs. I can't say the same for the animal semen.

[Mattingly]

I shouldn't mention what Roger says to Woody H. and Bill M. when you play "Kingpin" backwards. I'll have to keep it a secret until Roger wins his 512th game by pitching his 20th no hitter. ;-)
Tony, if you don't say it, I'll strongly consider leaping from behind my monitor, into your living room and making sure that you tell us. :D ;) :p

Well, obviously I can't really do that, but I can always think it, right? :laugh

[Metal Ed]

Wait - the article doesn't say anything about sheep semen. It says he took a testosterone elixir. That's taking steroids, not taking semen.

So where did all this talk of semen, er, come from? No Pud or pun intended.

[ESPNFan]

Man this thread is like Freddy Kruger, no matter how much logic you throw at it you just can't seem to kill it.

I don't consider illegal drugs to be cheating unless they are being used with the intent to cheat. It's pretty cut and dry that stuff like LSD or other hallucinogens that negatively impact your perception on reality would inhibit performance. That is unless you find it easier to hit a change up while looking through a kaleidoscope. I'd have to see some evidence about Cocaine but I would think that as addiction grew performance would decrease.

And someone correct me if I'm wrong but during Prohibition I thought only the manufacture and sale of Alcohol was illegal. So unless Ruth and other were selling or distributing they weren't doing anything illegal by drinking it.

And it doesn't matter what Pud's intentions were. Injecting himself with minced gonads/testicles/semen from what ever animal he could find wasn't cheating. Its a non issue. Its like If you went to the butchers shop and bought Bull testicles ground them into a slurry and injected yourself with them today the only thing I could see someone charging you with is felony stupidity. :laugh

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No Pud or pun intended.

One liner of the day winner !! :eek:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

And someone correct me if I'm wrong but during Prohibition I thought only the manufacture and sale of Alcohol was illegal. So unless Ruth and other were selling or distributing they weren't doing anything illegal by drinking it.


This is correct. It was like the 16th? Amendment or somethin'.

Edit:

Nope, 18th amendment.

Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

From Wiklopedia.

"Because Prohibition banned only the manufacture, sale, and transport--but not possession or consumption--of alcohol, some people and institutions who had bought or made liquor prior to the passage of the 18th Amendment were able to continue to serve it throughout the prohibition period legally."

"Even though the sale of alcohol was illegal, alcoholic drinks were still widely available at "speakeasies" and other underground drinking establishments."

"Legal and illegal home brewing was popular during Prohibition. Limited amounts of wine and hard cider were permitted to be made at home."

"Whisky was available by prescription from medical doctors. The labels clearly warned that it was strictly for medicinal purposes and any other uses were illegal, but even so doctors freely wrote prescriptions and druggists filled them without question, and the number of "patients" soared. Authorities never tried to restrict this practice, which was the way many people got their booze: Over a million gallons were consumed per year through freely given prescriptions."

"Even prominent citizens and politicians later admitted to having used alcohol during Prohibition. President Harding kept the White House well stocked with bootleg liquor, though, as a Senator, he had voted for Prohibition."

[TonyK]

Tony, if you don't say it, I'll strongly consider leaping from behind my monitor, into your living room and making sure that you tell us. :D ;) :p

Well, obviously I can't really do that, but I can always think it, right? :laugh

I think it might have been, "So I grabbed this bull by the horn and...".

It is hard to hear over all the bulls**t in the background with pins rattling around and bowlers injecting themselves on the benches. Hope that "clears" this up for you.

[Taco De Muerte]

By "illegal drugs", I mean anything of the narcotic variety, or anything that's known as a PED. Be it anabolic steroids, HGH, and/or any of the so-called "designer drugs" out there which are illegal in one popular sport or the next, such as NHL, NFL, NBA, IOC, USPGA, etc. This would also include athletic sports such as skiing, bicycling, skating, gymnastics, etc

Fair Enough.


As to narcotics themselves, as you'd mentioned cocaine, I'm not sure what performance adantage can be gained by this, so I wouldn't say it's "cheating". However, those drugs are clearly illegal, and if you use and/or sell them, you can be arrested, tried, and you can be banned as an athlete.

I'm not sure if cocaine can " help "performance either, I have never tried the stuff. Nor Will I ever.


As to Ruth and Prohibition, quite a few people drank during Prohibition. Does the word "moonshine" mean anything to you? I'm not sure what the performance enhancement was of this, but it was also illegal, as one could be arrested for it prior to 1920.

I originally thought that you were saying that if something is illegal in this country, when used by athletes, it's cheating, if that's not what you meant, My apologies.



As to Pud's experimental injections or other consumption of farm animal semen, I have no idea whether that even worked one bit, but I'd imagine that sheep semen wouldn't be one bit different now than then. Since I've never known this to be illegal by USA law, nor have I ever heard of any performance advantages of using this, then I can't see how it's a performance-enhancing drug. In fact, I don't see how sheep semen even qualifies as a drug itself.


Sorry, but I can't agree with this - Someone who's injecting himself with animal testosrone is doing it for an obvious reason to cheat. If it were found out that bonds used THG before it was Banned, let's say, in 2001, would you not consider him a cheat even though his intention was to get an edge over his opponents ?

[Taco De Muerte]

I think the fact that these animal sperm wasn't proven to enhance one's performance, nor this being considered a "drug", nor being illegal to possess and/or sell, disqualifies this in its entirety as a PED. It's never (to my knowledge) been proven to enhance one's performance over the course of many players, is not considered an illegal drug.

As to Gary Sheffield and his allegations that he didn't know what he was taking, that's debatable. Bonds said he didn't knowingly take any "cream" or "clear", and people will also have doubts about his truthfulness on this.

What I've never heard being debatable is whether or not the drugs that Sheffield--like Bonds--have been accused of using were illegal PEDs. I can't say the same for the animal semen.

Well, the steroids sheffield confessed to in 2002, atleast THG ( clear), wasn't banned till 2003.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-10-28-fda-steroid_x.htm

Still, IMO, his intention was to cheat - even if it was just for recovery, it's still an unfair advantage.

I believe pud was doing the samething when injecting himself with animal testosterone.

[Taco De Muerte]

This is correct. It was like the 16th? Amendment or somethin'.

Edit:

Nope, 18th amendment.

Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

From Wiklopedia.

"Because Prohibition banned only the manufacture, sale, and transport--but not possession or consumption--of alcohol, some people and institutions who had bought or made liquor prior to the passage of the 18th Amendment were able to continue to serve it throughout the prohibition period legally."

"Even though the sale of alcohol was illegal, alcoholic drinks were still widely available at "speakeasies" and other underground drinking establishments."

"Legal and illegal home brewing was popular during Prohibition. Limited amounts of wine and hard cider were permitted to be made at home."

"Whisky was available by prescription from medical doctors. The labels clearly warned that it was strictly for medicinal purposes and any other uses were illegal, but even so doctors freely wrote prescriptions and druggists filled them without question, and the number of "patients" soared. Authorities never tried to restrict this practice, which was the way many people got their booze: Over a million gallons were consumed per year through freely given prescriptions."

"Even prominent citizens and politicians later admitted to having used alcohol during Prohibition. President Harding kept the White House well stocked with bootleg liquor, though, as a Senator, he had voted for Prohibition."

hmm, I don't know how seriously I can take this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I agree that Website isn't always the most accurate, but everything there is confirmed by many other sources. Why I chose not to use those instead is beyond you and me both :confused:



http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment18/
Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/wick/wick1.html
It does not define intoxicating liquors or directly prohibit the purchase, possession by the purchaser, or use of any liquor, whether intoxicating or otherwise.

In January 1919, the states ratified the 18th Amendment, Prohibition, which placed a nationwide ban on the manufacture and transportation of intoxicating liquor.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/miami/peopleevents/pande06.html
Although Congress passed Prohibition overwhelmingly, the members did not provide additional funds for anything beyond token enforcement. The 18th Amendment was difficult to enforce, "always… more of an ideal than a reality." The Volstead Act of 1919, named for its author, Minnesota senator Andrew Volstead, made provisions for Prohibition's enforcement, but it contained loopholes that invited abuses. Volstead gave federal agents great freedom in investigating and prosecuting violations. It also defined intoxicating liquor as having .5 percent alcoholic content; but liquor used for medicinal, sacramental or industrial purposes, no matter the alcoholic content, was legal. Likewise for fruit or grape beverages prepared at home.


--Basically, the 18th amendment did more harm than good, with organized crime thriving under it.

[ESPNFan]

I agree that Website isn't always the most accurate, but everything there is confirmed by many other sources. Why I chose not to use those instead is beyond you and me both :confused:



http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment18/
Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/wick/wick1.html
It does not define intoxicating liquors or directly prohibit the purchase, possession by the purchaser, or use of any liquor, whether intoxicating or otherwise.

In January 1919, the states ratified the 18th Amendment, Prohibition, which placed a nationwide ban on the manufacture and transportation of intoxicating liquor.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/miami/peopleevents/pande06.html
Although Congress passed Prohibition overwhelmingly, the members did not provide additional funds for anything beyond token enforcement. The 18th Amendment was difficult to enforce, "always… more of an ideal than a reality." The Volstead Act of 1919, named for its author, Minnesota senator Andrew Volstead, made provisions for Prohibition's enforcement, but it contained loopholes that invited abuses. Volstead gave federal agents great freedom in investigating and prosecuting violations. It also defined intoxicating liquor as having .5 percent alcoholic content; but liquor used for medicinal, sacramental or industrial purposes, no matter the alcoholic content, was legal. Likewise for fruit or grape beverages prepared at home.


--Basically, the 18th amendment did more harm than good, with organized crime thriving under it.

Seems like Wikipedia (and yours truely:cool: )got this one right.
I ESPNFan endorce this post. ;)

[csh19792001]

Oh please shut up. Cobb was a piece of **** who probably killed a few people. To doubt that he may have cheated by using performance enhancing drugs is pathetic. You must be racist yourself. As for ruth, he was already caught cheating. Just read the new billjames historical baseball abstract, he explains it in detail. "Taco Of Death", good thread. This is very interesting news.

It's amazing how many people come in here ranting (using almost exactly the same words/phrasing/sentences) and have less than 10 posts to their name.

Makes one wonder if it's just one person working under several different pushing their same inane, unsubstantiated garbage.

Yeah, real unlikely. :rolleyes: At least try changing your font or something, dude, your ephemeral screen name changing is an utterly transparent disguise. And speaking of "pathetic" (one of your favorite words).....

[csh19792001]

Seems like Wikipedia (and yours truely:cool: )got this one right.
I ESPNFan endorce this post. ;)

Good work amigo.

Keep it up!! :)

[Mattingly]

Fair Enough.
That's fine, so we'll skip past this one.
I'm not sure if cocaine can " help "performance either, I have never tried the stuff. Nor Will I ever.
Not necessarily "cheating", but if they are using something illegal like this, they can get banned for baseball. Dwight Gooden lost the entire 1995 season because of his 1-year suspension from baseball because of his cocaine use. He and Strawberry suffered the same fate. Not necessarily to gain any performance advantage, but still using an illegal substance.
I originally thought that you were saying that if something is illegal in this country, when used by athletes, it's cheating, if that's not what you meant, My apologies.
I see two separate things: one is something which is illegal; the other is something which has been demonstrated to gain an advantage. It's illegal to gamble, but I've never heard of that becoming a performance advantage. It's illegal to bring a loaded firearm into a baseball stadium, and that also is not a performance enhancement. It is illegal to take or distribute cocaine or the various hallucinogenics, and to my knowledge (again, I'll remind you, I'm *NOT* a medical doctor or someone skilled in the medical and/or narcotic and/or other drug research field), that won't improve any performance. However, it's still illegal.

As to "cheating", I wouldn't say that neither liquor nor narcotics would prove to be a performance enhancer, unless one just happens to play better when they're under the influence of those. I've known guys who played pool better when drunk, and many rock stars have said they've done performance when they were looser and having used marijuana. I still can't consider these to be "performance enhancers".

The only thing that I would consider "cheating" is use of something which is both (1) having proven itself over the course of many players to have markedly improved their performance, and they are (2) a drug that is considered illegal to sell and/or possess and/or distribute in large quantities. HGH fits that criteria, since it (1) is in fact a drug, (2) has proven to increased performance, and (3) is illegal to sell, possess and distribute. Anabolic steroids also fits those three (3) criteria.
Sorry, but I can't agree with this - Someone who's injecting himself with animal testosrone is doing it for an obvious reason to cheat. If it were found out that bonds used THG before it was Banned, let's say, in 2001, would you not consider him a cheat even though his intention was to get an edge over his opponents ?
Since you're so insistent upon this, can you demonstrate any law existing in 1889 which showed that what Pud used was illegal in the specific USA State/Commonwealth he was in, or the USA as a whole?

Can you prove that the substances Pud ingested/injected, from that npr.com article, was in fact considered a "drug" of any sort at the time he'd consumed these? Can you demonstrate that what Pud used in that npr.com article was proven to enhance a player's performance, as proven on many players over the years, as have anabolic steroids and HGH? If not, then what's your point? I've already offered my points as to what constitutes PEDs, as well as my reasoning behind them.

[Mattingly]

Hey man where'd you get that scar from drinking Dr. Pepper?
Cute. I grew up drinking Shasta and A&W back in the days.

Now back to "base ball", as it was known by then. :)

[Mattingly]

Well, the steroids sheffield confessed to in 2002, atleast THG ( clear), wasn't banned till 2003.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-10-28-fda-steroid_x.htm

Still, IMO, his intention was to cheat - even if it was just for recovery, it's still an unfair advantage.

I believe pud was doing the samething when injecting himself with animal testosterone.
So these animal testosterone products were found to be drugs at one point or another? I've never heard of anything considered a drug that were natural animal by-products. Was it manufactured in a lab?

If Pud had eaten the head of an ox, mixed this with the blood of a skunk, then added the venom of a rattlesnake, am I supposed to believe that's cheating for an unfair advantage also? Seems more like snake oil than anything proven to get results. I wouldn't consider said snake oil to be a PED, as it's never been proven to work.

If sheep testosterone were proven to work, there would be quite a bit of this being used today, I would think.

[HitchedtoaSpark]

Coming from someone that has a Ty Cobb avatar, I'll take that as a compliment.
Going for the cycle by swinging non-sequiturs on top of gullibility, logical bankruptcy, and a facile understanding of history, are we? I believe in a minute that you require no juicing whatsoever to perform at this level.

Chum, you're advancing a 115 year old snake oil ad to support an analogy to modern, high-tech steroid use. I could call you all kinds of dirty words in Latin.

[Taco De Muerte]

I see two separate things: one is something which is illegal; the other is something which has been demonstrated to gain an advantage. It's illegal to gamble, but I've never heard of that becoming a performance advantage. It's illegal to bring a loaded firearm into a baseball stadium, and that also is not a performance enhancement. It is illegal to take or distribute cocaine or the various hallucinogenics, and to my knowledge (again, I'll remind you, I'm *NOT* a medical doctor or someone skilled in the medical and/or narcotic and/or other drug research field), that won't improve any performance. However, it's still illegal.

Ok Mattingly, I'll keep asking this question - If it were proven that bonds, sheffield, etc used THG before it was banned in the U.S., and baseball, would you consider them cheaters or not ?




Since you're so insistent upon this, can you demonstrate any law existing in 1889 which showed that what Pud used was illegal in the specific USA State/Commonwealth he was in, or the USA as a whole?

Can you prove that the substances Pud ingested/injected, from that npr.com article, was in fact considered a "drug" of any sort at the time he'd consumed these? Can you demonstrate that what Pud used in that npr.com article was proven to enhance a player's performance, as proven on many players over the years, as have anabolic steroids and HGH? If not, then what's your point? I've already offered my points as to what constitutes PEDs, as well as my reasoning behind them.

Well, besides the fact that the article states that the washingtonpost called it a " performance enhancing drug ", and praised him for it, I can't say for a fact that it's a PED.

Anyway mattingly, I won't repeat myself after this one last-time - I absolutely see no other season for someone to inject himself with animal testosrone for any other purpose than to try and " enhance " his game - The drug probably isn't a performance enhancer at all, but IMO, he was using it because he BELIEVEd it would help his performance.

And I stand by that.


So these animal testosterone products were found to be drugs at one point or another? I've never heard of anything considered a drug that were natural animal by-products. Was it manufactured in a lab?

If Pud had eaten the head of an ox, mixed this with the blood of a skunk, then added the venom of a rattlesnake, am I supposed to believe that's cheating for an unfair advantage also? Seems more like snake oil than anything proven to get results. I wouldn't consider said snake oil to be a PED, as it's never been proven to work.

Again Mattingly, I can't prove for a fact that it enhanced his performance, or if it's a PED, but I believe his intention was to cheat. I'm sorry, but I can't see ANYONE injecting himself with animal testosrone if he was not looking to " enhance " his performance in some way.


Going for the cycle by swinging non-sequiturs on top of gullibility, logical bankruptcy, and a facile understanding of history, are we? I believe in a minute that you require no juicing whatsoever to perform at this level.

Chum, you're advancing a 115 year old snake oil ad to support an analogy to modern, high-tech steroid use. I could call you all kinds of dirty words in Latin.

This is great, toss out the incredibly unfunny insults when resorting to avoid the arguement. Good stuff. Call me whatever you want in latin - I could care less. Just don't criticize a thread I started or insult my posts - Because I will respond back with an insult.

BTW, I never ONCE compared " modern steroids " to snake oil, never once, Only the intentions.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Ok Mattingly, I'll keep asking this question - If it were proven that bonds, sheffield, etc used THG before it was banned in the U.S., and baseball, would you consider them cheaters or not ?


Just a point of clarification, and maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong... THG the shortened fancy term for what we know as the "clear." It's something that was developed exclusively by Balco for their own clients, and it's sole purpose is to mask everything. This is the drug that raised the epitestosterone levels to allow it and testosterone to remain parallel, which causes a negative test. There were reports that although Bonds' tests did not show up positive (the difference between epi and testosterone were the same), that his actual testosterone level was through the roof and raised many eyebrows. Maybe you're speaking about HGH? Which is something they can't even test for. Or maybe you're speaking about the other numerous alleged steroids he took.

[Taco De Muerte]

Just a point of clarification, and maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong... THG the shortened fancy term for what we know as the "clear." It's something that was developed exclusively by Balco for their own clients, and it's sole purpose is to mask everything. This is the drug that raised the epitestosterone levels to allow it and testosterone to remain parallel, which causes a negative test. There were reports that although Bonds' tests did not show up positive (the difference between epi and testosterone were the same), that his actual testosterone level was through the roof and raised many eyebrows. Maybe you're speaking about HGH? Which is something they can't even test for. Or maybe you're speaking about the other numerous alleged steroids he took.

No, I'm speaking of THG, which was not banned till 2003.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-10-28-fda-steroid_x.htm

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The drug probably isn't a performance enhancer at all, but IMO, he was using it because he BELIEVEd it would help his performance.And I stand by that.

Now we're able to creep inside Pud's mind and know what his intentions were? Let's say you read some wacky article that said eating earth worms would give you more energy and make you stronger. Let's say you really believed it. You go out back with a pooper scooper and a bucket, you gather a load of creepy critters. You smack them on a plate, throw a little A-1 sauce on those bad boys, and grin as they slide down your throat. Are you cheating?

---------------

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No, I'm speaking of THG, which was not banned till 2003.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-10-28-fda-steroid_x.htm

I meant to put "cream" in my original post. Pretty sure that's the stuff. THG, just a masking agent, or maybe it's steroids with a masking agent built in? I'll check your link in a sec.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yeah, that's the stuff. Pretty sure the street name for that is "The Cream".

From your link:

It apparently was designed specifically to be undetectable by the standard test given to athletes.

I heard it was only available at Balco, but maybe not. I know there was some stuff that couldn't be received anywhere else.

[Taco De Muerte]

I meant to put "cream" in my original post. Pretty sure that's the stuff. THG, just a masking agent, or maybe it's steroids with a masking agent built in? I'll check your link in a sec.

Sultan, THG was not an illegal substance until October 28th 2003. It was considered a dietary subtance until then, which is not illegal. My question to mattingly was - If it is proven that bonds used THG before October 28th 2003, would he still consider bonds a " cheater " ?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan, THG was not an illegal substance until October 28th 2003. It was considered a dietary subtance until then, which is not illegal. My question to mattingly was - If it is proven that bonds used THG before October 28th 2003, would he still consider bonds a " cheater " ?

So Balco got their hands on a "dietary supplement" and turned it into a masking agent for steroids? Something doesn't add up here.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Can we get serious here. Alcohol may have been illegal but I think the heading of this thread is "performance enhancing drugs." The subject matter is discussing what some believe are drugs that can enhance, boost performance. Who here believes that a few beers will boost ones performance, if anything in most cases it will take away.

Beer or steroids, if I was foolish enough and wanted to gain an edge, it's steroids. Foolish comparison if we are going by the title of this thread, the word is enhancing, not illegal, enhancing.

[Mattingly]

Ok Mattingly, I'll keep asking this question - If it were proven that bonds, sheffield, etc used THG before it was banned in the U.S., and baseball, would you consider them cheaters or not ?
Yes I would, but only presuming that said THG products were considered "drugs", and had proven themselves to increase player performance. However, since I can't say for a fact that said substances are illegal, as they may be basically new, I can't say "yes" very forcefully.

To me, it's a case of cops & robbers: the cops improve their techniques to catch the bad guys, and the bad guys improve their methods of avoiding being caught. Same with athletes and drug-testing.
Well, besides the fact that the article states that the washingtonpost called it a " performance enhancing drug ", and praised him for it, I can't say for a fact that it's a PED.
I'd have to see somewhere in a respected medical journal where some sheep testosterone, semen or whatever it is that he took was first considered a "drug". If not, then it seems more like some "hope and a prayer" that what he took would in fact work. There have been countless elixirs out there, but if it's not even proven to work, then I could just as easily call coffee or an Aspirin tablet to be a "drug". They, BTW, aren't expected to markedly improve player performance.
Anyway mattingly, I won't repeat myself after this one last-time - I absolutely see no other season for someone to inject himself with animal testosrone for any other purpose than to try and " enhance " his game - The drug probably isn't a performance enhancer at all, but IMO, he was using it because he BELIEVEd it would help his performance.

And I stand by that.
I have no problem whatsoever when you say that he *TRIED* to enhance his performance. The thing is, there's a marked difference between *TRYING* to cheat and using methods which have been *PROVEN* successful at cheating.

If I put wings on and flap them, I could try to fly. I won't get very far, but I could try. If I get into a helicopter or a light plane, I could fly. One is an attempt; the other is success.

If I take some unproven snake oil type of elixir, I could try to cheat all I want, but unless the substance is at least known, then how is it considered cheating? To me, that animal testosterone and/or semen wasn't cheating, despite the supposed efforts. Pud would have to use something that's bona fide as being illegal, and I have no idea what medical technology in the late 19th century allowed. By the same theory, if I took anabolic steroids, HGH, TGH, etc, that would definitely improve my performance. I'd compare Pud's sheep testosterone to flapping feathered wings and expecting to fly, and the recognized PEDs to flying inside of an airplane or helicopter: one is a laughable attempt, while the other is a bona fide attempt.
Again Mattingly, I can't prove for a fact that it enhanced his performance, or if it's a PED, but I believe his intention was to cheat. I'm sorry, but I can't see ANYONE injecting himself with animal testosrone if he was not looking to " enhance " his performance in some way.
You pretty much repeated what you'd posted earlier. Please see my last paragraphs as a reply.
This is great, toss out the incredibly unfunny insults when resorting to avoid the arguement. Good stuff. Call me whatever you want in latin - I could care less. Just don't criticize a thread I started or insult my posts - Because I will respond back with an insult.

BTW, I never ONCE compared " modern steroids " to snake oil, never once, Only the intentions.
No need to insult from either of you. That's why we have Mods here. As to "snake oil", I believe that I've compared the sheep testosterone and/or semen to snake oil. If anyone believes that there was a true and proven advantage, I'd definitely need to see medical evidence to support this.

[Mattingly]

Sultan, THG was not an illegal substance until October 28th 2003. It was considered a dietary subtance until then, which is not illegal. My question to mattingly was - If it is proven that bonds used THG before October 28th 2003, would he still consider bonds a " cheater " ?
If it's a new drug that was unknown to the FDA and other USA governmental agencies, then that's debatable. This falls outside of my definition of "illegal", per USA laws, since it wasn't technically "illegal" per the date you'd mentioned, given that this date is accurate.

However, if someone tried getting an edge with something that offered benefits by messing with their testosterone level, even if undetected, I'd say that's "cheating". However, that would be my own opinion.

I'm sure there are many new and undetected "designer drugs" out there, but until they've actually been identified and found to be illegal, it will always be debatable as to whether or not their use constitutes "cheating", per se.

So long as athletes make in excess of $10m/yr and can continue making crazy salaries, there will be a demand to get have undetectable substances that will give them an edge, be it recovery time, total performance, endurance or what have you.

[ESPNFan]

It's amazing how many people come in here ranting (using almost exactly the same words/phrasing/sentences) and have less than 10 posts to their name.

Makes one wonder if it's just one person working under several different pushing their same inane, unsubstantiated garbage.

Yeah, real unlikely. :rolleyes: At least try changing your font or something, dude, your ephemeral screen name changing is an utterly transparent disguise. And speaking of "pathetic" (one of your favorite words).....

LOL i'm glad someone else caught on to this as well :laugh

If the only person you can get to agree with you is yourself, there are other problems that aren't baseball related that need to be delt with post haste ; )

[ESPNFan]

Its really a shame that Taco has choosen to Ignore me because he could learn something.....

THG was infact Banned before 2003 or when WADA etc.. finally had their snitch provide them with it.

Here is why. THG was a mixture of two already exsisting drugs. Gestrinone, a female fertility drug and Trenbolone a known anabolic steroid used for enhancing beef cattle. The way that THG was created on a chemical level was ingenius in that when a drug test was administered it dryed out the THG and drying it out breaks it down. So before it was known to testers anyone who went looking for THG would have destroyed the evidence in doing so. It was designed to do that. THG was a designed to "cheat" drugtests so people like Bonds Sheffield and Giambi could "cheat" in baseball.

So THG wasn't some thing that was completely knew just discovered overnight. It was a new Steroid that much like other new Anabolics come from combining and experimenting with already exsisting Anabolics.

So because THG contained an already known Steroid it most certainly would be considered illegal.

[Mattingly]

LOL i'm glad someone else caught on to this as well :laugh

If the only person you can get to agree with you is yourself, there are other problems that aren't baseball related that need to be delt with post haste ; )
I think that people need to remember that if you support an unpopular argument, you need to make your case for things. Be it logics, stats, relevant links or something, but the point has to be supported.

People also have to possess good communication skills, lest their best ideas be all for naught.

Sometimes extending oneself to see what your opponents are thinking could help. Otherwise, it just ends up becoming two parties essentially shouting at one another, even if in muted tones. (presuming that makes an iota of sense)

As to this thread, sometimes I wonder if I'm just going around in circles, repeating the same thing. *sigh*

As to TGH, when did it become illegal in the USA exactly? Which sports (including MLB, of course) made it illegal to use, and when did these changes occur?

[ESPNFan]

Oh and just to put a merciful end to this thread and Taco's repetative yet incorrect ramblings....

http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/faculty/pbird/keepingfit/ARTICLE/Testosterone.HTM

Q. Are there any safe alternatives to anabolic steroids?

Take, for example, bull testicles. The wishful here is that since testosterone is produced by the testes, eating a lot of testes should pump up testosterone levels. But there's no more testosterone in testicles than in other parts of the animal. Testicles produce, they do not store, testosterone. Also, any of this hormone we may get from a supplement is essentially neutralized by our metabolic process, if it hadn't already been destroyed in the product manufacturing process.

It took me a while to track the info down and its from 1991 but the science behind it seems sound.

I had a feeling that it would be hard to get testosterone out of minced or pulped testicles but there is your proof that Pud most likely got the same amount of testosterone by injectinghimself as he would have by eating a porterhouse medium rare. He probably would have enjoyed the steak more as well.

Legitimate testosterone wasn't synthesized until the mid 1930's and Anabolic steroids that had the sex linked traits minimized weren't created until the mid 1950's.

[ESPNFan]

I think that people need to remember that if you support an unpopular argument, you need to make your case for things. Be it logics, stats, relevant links or something, but the point has to be supported.

People also have to possess good communication skills, lest their best ideas be all for naught.

Sometimes extending oneself to see what your opponents are thinking could help. Otherwise, it just ends up becoming two parties essentially shouting at one another, even if in muted tones. (presuming that makes an iota of sense)

As to this thread, sometimes I wonder if I'm just going around in circles, repeating the same thing. *sigh*

As to TGH, when did it become illegal in the USA exactly? Which sports (including MLB, of course) made it illegal to use, and when did these changes occur?

Yes but also when multiple people present well worded, logicial, and definitive arguments that basicly answer the questions rasied if your not a zealot or closed minded sometimes you have to accept that you might be wrong.

This thread has basicly boiled down to where unless you were Pud you can't make a accurate judgement on what his intentions where. And since there was no rules or laws agisnt injecting yourself with puree of bull sack, cheating or intedning to cheat, doesn't even enter the argument.

Not to mention that it doesn't work and is most likely of no more benefit than a steak.

I find it extremely hypocritical that someone could accuse Pud of cheating and, claim to know what his intentions were, when no laws agsint what he did exsisted and at the same time could question if using a Anabolic steroid that was created for the specific intent of avoiding detection was infact cheating simply because the authorities hadn't caught on to it yet.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

ESPN,

So THG was designed specifically for masking, and it was only created by Balco, nobody else, right?

[Metal Ed]

I thought THG was invented by Patrick Arnold, the Illinois chemist who lived and worked just a few miles away from me when I attended the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Seriously......he was practically in my backyard and I had no clue the guy was even there until I left the school and he made the headlines by getting busted.

Did Arnold invent THG? Or was it just The Clear?

[ESPNFan]

ESPN,

So THG was designed specifically for masking, and it was only created by Balco, nobody else, right?

Its really hard to tell who created THG. Victor Conte would probably like to you to think he did. Patrick Arnold, a chemist who was busted last year for a THG like product could have done it. Will Carroll Interveiwed a anonomys Chemist who claimed to be involved in the creation of it as well. That guy seemed to really know his stuff and really detailed how THG was used how it was dicovered and what things the drug underworld is up too now. It was in his book "The Juice" and it was one of the most interesting chapters of the book. Its been alomost a year Since I read it but I think Howard Bryant's book also had a interview with a similar guy if not the same guy, but I could just be mixing details up. I'll check when I get home and reread the chapters for you.

[Mattingly]

Yes but also when multiple people present well worded, logicial, and definitive arguments that basicly answer the questions rasied if your not a zealot or closed minded sometimes you have to accept that you might be wrong.

This thread has basicly boiled down to where unless you were Pud you can't make a accurate judgement on what his intentions where. And since there was no rules or laws agisnt injecting yourself with puree of bull sack, cheating or intedning to cheat, doesn't even enter the argument.

Not to mention that it doesn't work and is most likely of no more benefit than a steak.

I find it extremely hypocritical that someone could accuse Pud of cheating and, claim to know what his intentions were, when no laws agsint what he did exsisted and at the same time could question if using a Anabolic steroid that was created for the specific intent of avoiding detection was infact cheating simply because the authorities hadn't caught on to it yet.
To tell you the truth, I'll buy the argument (merely for argument's sack, or rather, lack thereof in this thread) that Pud did intend to cheat. However, I'd hardly think that some bull testosterone would be the appropriate way of doing so.

If you and I are racing our cars (on a track, not a deserted road), I take out the spare tires and seats out of my car, that's obviously an advantage. Now if I put special fuel into my car that's against the rules, that's obviously cheating.

As with the car and the body, some things I'd consider cheating, while others are just a wasteful attempt at doing so. Pud's method was, at least to me, useless attempts to cheat, as they've never been proven to work over the course of time in drastically improving players' performance, regardless of the intention.

If Taco doesn't wish to accept this, then I can't go on forever repeating the very same thing endlessly.

As to the hypocricy thing, I'm surprised that Taco hasn't caught on yet that he hasn't begun to describe any testing method for drugs yet, nor has the bull stuff been labeled a "drug". The THG/HGH/anabolic steroids and others are obviously cheating or designed to mask testing procedures, allowing other things to be used which would otherwise lead to suspensions. Since they never had anything remotely similar in 1889, I'm wondering when Taco will just realize and accept that.

I've heard of restaurants serving "rocky mountain oysters" (previously mentioned somewhere in this thread), which are actually "bull testicles", so this being served legally should show that it's not illegal. Anyone taking this for athletic gain should consider seeing a good psychiatrist thereafter.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Did Arnold invent THG? Or was it just The Clear?

I think they're the same thing.

[west coast orange and black]

ESPNFan: Its really hard to tell who created THG.

i have been keeping an eye on this thread and most others that have to do with substances/substance use/substance abuse.
espnfan, i was very happy to read this single statement of yours.
for better or worse -- depending on whom is asked -- i believe in your words.
many thanx, truthseeker.
wcoab

[ESPNFan]

ESPNFan: Its really hard to tell who created THG.

i have been keeping an eye on this thread and most others that have to do with substances/substance use/substance abuse.
espnfan, i was very happy to read this single statement of yours.
for better or worse -- depending on whom is asked -- i believe in your words.
many thanx, truthseeker.
wcoab

I do what I can.
Thanks :)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

ESPNFan: Its really hard to tell who created THG.

i have been keeping an eye on this thread and most others that have to do with substances/substance use/substance abuse.
espnfan, i was very happy to read this single statement of yours.
for better or worse -- depending on whom is asked -- i believe in your words.
many thanx, truthseeker.
wcoab

That brought warm fuzzies, but the question hasn't been answered. Was Balco the sole supplier of THG?

[ESPNFan]

That brought warm fuzzies, but the question hasn't been answered. Was Balco the sole supplier of THG?

Again Sultan I really couldn't say. There are multiple people whe were names that could have created it so who knows. But if Balco didn't develop it initially, then with the money that could be made from its sale I'd say that the creator would have found other distributors for it, but I'd guess nothing that had the illusion of legitimacy that Balco managed to create.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Alright thanks for checkin'. Hate settlin' for not knowin' somethin'. It blows. :atthepc

[ESPNFan]

Alright thanks for checkin'. Hate settlin' for not knowin' somethin'. It blows. :atthepc

I'm still at work but I will check when I get home.
Remember half the fun of not knowing something is searching for the answer;)

[Metal Ed]

I think they're the same thing.


I don't think so, Sultan. My understanding is this: THG came first, and was a beautiful peice of biochemistry, being undetectable. Then a whistle-blower sent a vial of the stuff to WADA, and they concocted a test for THG, and this caused some Olympic athletes, who had previously been testing clean, to fail some tests.

The Clear came next and was so called the Clear because it couldn't be detected. It was the next stage in the world of undetectable designer drugs. Supposedly Patrick Arnold was working on the The Clear II when he got busted.

Patrick Arnold made the Clear for BALCO, that I know. I have heard it speculated that he also created THG, that I do not know for sure.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: ...the question hasn't been answered. Was Balco the sole supplier of THG?

dude, do you mean:
was balco always the sole supplier?
or
did balco supply it before others did?

[Mattingly]

wcoab:

Do you see any logic in that whole "Pud" thing re his taking of sheep testosterone and/or semen? I've never considered that to be cheating in any way, unlike using THG, HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

Your thoughts?

[west coast orange and black]

what constitutes "cheating" can mean various things.
it can include everything that does not meet *moral* standards;
solely what is not allowed per specific governing rules of a specific organization;
the very action of trying to get an edge by way of any action done in secret.

re the sheep substance thing - cheating:
if it is not specifically against the rules, i do not consider it cheating, no.
morality falls on the subjective side of things v a black-on-white written rule.

re the sheep substance thing - logic:
someone figured that he could get an edge... and went for it. seemed logical to him, at least at the time.

[Mattingly]

what constitutes "cheating" can mean various things.
it can include everything that does not meet *moral* standards;
solely what is not allowed per specific governing rules of a specific organization;
the very action of trying to get an edge by way of any action done in secret.

re the sheep substance thing - cheating:
if it is not specifically against the rules, i do not consider it cheating, no.
morality falls on the subjective side of things v a black-on-white written rule.

re the sheep substance thing - logic:
someone figured that he could get an edge... and went for it. seemed logical to him, at least at the time.
What I'm trying to find out is, how is it cheating if it's never been proven to work?

I'm not sure where these drugs like THG, HGH et al are derived from, but I can't imagine that they just took the "stuff" from a sheep, bovine bull or the other, and ground it up, and then this somehow became a drug.

I was thinking that if someone didn't use anything that's had proven results, then how is it truly "cheating"?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan: ...the question hasn't been answered. Was Balco the sole supplier of THG?

dude, do you mean:
was balco always the sole supplier?
or
did balco supply it before others did?

I'm simply asking this.......

If you were a baseball player in the past 50 years, and you wanted to get your hands on some THG, could you get it from anywhere else besides Balco? And if yes, then was Balco always the source?

There was something that could only be either distributed or bought through Balco, and I thought it was the clear, or THG. If the "clear" isn't the street name for THG,then ESPN and others have it wrong, because they've said as much.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ dude, you asked if a baseball player in the past 50 years wanted to land some THG, 1. could he get it from anywhere else besides BALCO; 2. and if yes, then was Balco always the source.

uh, anyway.
1. other than balco: yes
2. balco always the source: no; balco was a source, not the sole source, which i infer by your "the source"

history:
the chemical compound THG (Tetrahydrogestrinone) was altered and became marketed as the "clear" (as opposed to "the cream")
note: one is "clear", not "the clear"; the other is "the cream", not "cream".
the media have bastardized and homogenized the names).

[brewcrew82]

Do you see any logic in that whole "Pud" thing re his taking of sheep testosterone and/or semen? I've never considered that to be cheating in any way, unlike using THG, HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

Your thoughts?

I know this is aimed at WCOaB, but it seems the easiest post to quote...It was still cheating as he intended to gt get an unfair advantage over the other competitors, which is the same reason for using steroids. The fact that ingesting the stuff didn't have the desired effect is not the point, to me it's more a fact of he tried to get the unnatural advantage.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three: how is it cheating if it's never been proven to work?

not for me to say, man.

i started with society's morals, then included the governing rules of an organization, and added one's own personal beliefs. interesting to note that none of the above needs actual positive benefit(s) in order to meet the cheating requirement.

baseball says that the definition of a balk includes the pitcher dropping the ball while on the rubber.
uh, although there certainly is at least one way for the drop to occur without trying to deceive, dropping the ball while on the rubber can be a balk because baseball says so.

[west coast orange and black]

i certainly was relieved to read the words "to me" in there, brewcrew.

as i said, "cheating" means different things to different people.
but, one description can not be challenged:
when an organization declares an action as being against clearly stated, governing rules.

[west coast orange and black]

sidenote: what is "unnatural" about a naturally found substance from an animal?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

^^ dude, you asked if a baseball player in the past 50 years wanted to land some THG, 1. could he get it from anywhere else besides BALCO; 2. and if yes, then was Balco always the source.

uh, anyway.
1. other than balco: yes
2. balco always the source: no; balco was a source, not the sole source, which i infer by your "the source"



What about that don't you understand WC? Making things way more complicated then they need to be.

The point was, if I want to buy a Pepsi, I can go to 7-11 or Thriftway for one. But it's not coming from 7-11 or Thriftway, it's coming from the makers of it. That's what I was getting at. If it was available somewhere else, was Balco the lone source or not?

Thanks for the other info.

[west coast orange and black]

"was balco was the lone manufacturer?"

is that it?

(being a "source" can mean different things.)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

"was balco was the lone manufacturer?"

is that it?

(being a "source" can mean different things.)

Yes Webster, you've unlocked the code. Manufacturer :p

[west coast orange and black]

What about that don't you understand WC? Making things way more complicated then they need to be.

the english language is a beautiful thing, man.
daunting at times, but the mother pearl at others.

. . . . . . . . .

let me guess: you have not ever had to write product use instructions, have you? :lookitup

[Sultan_1895-1948]

What about that don't you understand WC? Making things way more complicated then they need to be.

the english language is a beautiful thing, man.
daunting at times, but the mother pearl at others.

. . . . . . . . .

let me guess: you have not ever had to write product use instructions, have you? :lookitup

Thankfully no. If I did, I would assume they know what "source" means, and if they misinterpret it, too BAD!! :dance

[west coast orange and black]

...I would assume they know what "source" means, and if they misinterpret it, too BAD!! :dance

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Nah, you're right, there's different layers to the word source, just thought in the context we were speaking you'd know what I meant. The source of toothpaste is the tube, the store you bought it from, or Colgate, depending......;)

What instructions do you write?

[west coast orange and black]

The source of toothpaste is the tube
maybe better: container; vessel

What instructions do you write?
home accessories: clocks, flatware, lighting fixtures, the like.
(not always how to use, but on proper care for, as well.)

sidenote to ponder: how would you write instructions on how to peel a banana?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The source of toothpaste is the tube
maybe better: container; vessel

What instructions do you write?
home accessories: clocks, flatware, lighting fixtures, the like.
(not always how to use, but on proper care for, as well.)

sidenote to ponder: how would you write instructions on how to peel a banana?

Sounds like a cool job. You need a pupil? :D

Not sure really, I never eat them, but here goes.

How to peel a banana...

Grip said unit's shaft toward the bottom. Place finger on the tip of the opposite end you're holding. With the tip of your finger, apply pressure to penetrate the outer later. Once dug in, gently peel toward you. Continue to do this until the shaft is peeled.

:D How's that?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Nice job, Sultan but it's, uh, not as cool as you might think. No offense, WCOAB. I'm a tech writer and training developer.

[west coast orange and black]

How to peel a banana...

Grip said unit's shaft toward the bottom. Place finger on the tip of the opposite end you're holding. With the tip of your finger, apply pressure to penetrate the outer later. Once dug in, gently peel toward you. Continue to do this until the shaft is peeled.

:D How's that?


what do you mean by "grip"? to hold firmly? to squeeze tight?
"toward the bottom" - how far?
"place finger" - which finger?
"apply pressure" - how much?
"outer layer" - how many layers are there?
"toward me. continue .... the shaft" - is the shaft the same thing as the layer?

:rolleyes:

[west coast orange and black]

no offense taken whatsoever, ccn.

i have several irons in the fire and product design is just one of 'em.

[Metal Ed]

history:
the chemical compound THG (Tetrahydrogestrinone) was altered and became marketed as the "clear" (as opposed to "the cream")
note: one is "clear", not "the clear"; the other is "the cream", not "cream".
the media have bastardized and homogenized the names).

So, THG is not quite the same thing as "The Clear"? But the media is generally imprecise in their terminology and refer to them as the same thing? Is that right?

[ESPNFan]

So, THG is not quite the same thing as "The Clear"? But the media is generally imprecise in their terminology and refer to them as the same thing? Is that right?

I didn't get a chance to reread the books chapters last night but I think I can answer this.

Ok like I said before when you dry out THG it breaks down. So thy guy in Carrolls bok explained that you have to keep it in a suspension (a liquid like state). I would assume that THG is both clear and cream, just used for two different types of things. One is a topical cream and one was an oral Anabolic.

Grip said unit's shaft toward the bottom.

And Sultan based on these banana directions of yours, I don't know if you have a future in technical writing as much as you would in Adult entertainment. :laugh :laugh

[Sultan_1895-1948]

How to peel a banana...

Grip said unit's shaft toward the bottom. Place finger on the tip of the opposite end you're holding. With the tip of your finger, apply pressure to penetrate the outer later. Once dug in, gently peel toward you. Continue to do this until the shaft is peeled.

:D How's that?


what do you mean by "grip"? to hold firmly? to squeeze tight?
"toward the bottom" - how far?
"place finger" - which finger?
"apply pressure" - how much?
"outer layer" - how many layers are there?
"toward me. continue .... the shaft" - is the shaft the same thing as the layer?

:rolleyes:

Well, in writing instructions, you have to assume the person has a brain in their head, and can function in society. Do you really need to hit on every single little detail for them :rolleyes:

I mean really:

Grip- enough to secure the banana. Shouldn't be hard to figure out.

Toward bottome - let's see, anything below halfway down the banana. Can this person decipher a half-way point?

Place finger- doesn't matter

Apply pressure - I stated "enough to penetrate the outer layer. The user should be able to figure this out. To little of pressure, and it won't penetrate, too much and he'll destroy the banana. Should you explain in pounds of pressure?

How many layers are there?- Has the user ever seen a banana or did he come from another planet?

Shaft - what they were holding, toward them is pretty simple.

[west coast orange and black]

So, THG is not quite the same thing as "The Clear"? But the media is generally imprecise in their terminology and refer to them as the same thing? Is that right?

yes, the media have been and still are very imprecise and incorrect when they refer to the illegal substances, particularly the ones from balco. (the two sf chronicle reporters do not have it all correct, either, by the way.)

as described above, THG does break down when not kept in an aqueous state; THG is available as a topical cream and as an oral anabolic.
barry bonds has been accused of using THG in both forms.

[west coast orange and black]

...I don't know if you have a future in technical writing as much as you would in Adult entertainment. :laugh :laugh


:laugh :laugh :laugh

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: How many layers are there?
Has the user ever seen a banana or did he come from another planet?

sounds to me like you have not ever been sued in circuit and federal court for negligence. :eek:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan: How many layers are there?
Has the user ever seen a banana or did he come from another planet?

sounds to me like you have not ever been sued in circuit and federal court for negligence. :eek:

In this day and age, I can see why you'd want to be more than careful with your directions. You know, this day of, someone spills hot coffee on themselves, and it's not their fault because it didn't have a label saying CAUTION: BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You need to put a caution on a plastic bag, so someone doesn't suffocate themselves? Brutal.

Hey WC, on a side note, I was just watching a documentary on steroids that brought something up. It was noted that 2 hours after the injection, testosterone levels spike. This of course got me thinking about the Canseco/McGwire locker room occurance. Any thoughts?

[west coast orange and black]

^^ canseco's story, i believe, is just that, a story.

as far as the level of testosterone in the body, one must look at why the injection occurred in the first place.
i seriously doubt that any steroid user has used in attempt to directly gain performance on the field, rather than in the gym or training room, and have performance gain occur indirectly.

can we agree that steroids are not used to directly better one's physical field performance?

[The Big C]

I'm not sure I would consider (this is me personally, lets be clear on that) the intent of ingesting ground up testicles as cheating. I would equate it more with taking calcium supplements or other such vitamins (and in fact the vitamins are most probably more effective). No one can safely say how Pud viewed the supposed advantage of the testicles for sure, and whether he thought the advantage he would gain would be unfair to other players.

Something I would like to point out is that doing something with the intent to cheat does not always mean you are cheating. You may, in fact, just be a moron. If you take a placebo, but you think it is an oral steroid, you think you are cheating and gaining an edge, but you aren't cheating. I think ineffective methods like ground up testicles should be viewed in the same way as such a situation, regardless of intent.

Now, if we are comparing the moral fiber of the people who think they are cheating, that is a different story altogether.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

^^ canseco's story, i believe, is just that, a story.

as far as the level of testosterone in the body, one must look at why the injection occurred in the first place.
i seriously doubt that any steroid user has used in attempt to directly gain performance on the field, rather than in the gym or training room, and have performance gain occur indirectly.

can we agree that steroids are not used to directly better one's physical field performance?

I would agree with you that it's all about them improving your workouts, which then in turn, impact your level of play. So yes, indirectly I would agree with.

However I hadn't heard this before. That 2 hours after injection, your testosterone level spikes. Now, how does that make you feel when it spikes? I wouldn't know. Who are we to say that during that spike period you don't "feel" stronger and more energetic.

[west coast orange and black]

The Big C: ...the intent to cheat does not always mean you are cheating. You may, in fact, just be a moron .... if we are comparing the moral fiber of the people who think they are cheating, that is a different story altogether.

totally agree on this, man.
intent to cheat but no actual progress, so no cheating as a result
v
the very intention to cheat constituting cheating

[west coast orange and black]

I would agree with you that it's all about them improving your workouts, which then in turn, impact your level of play. So yes, indirectly I would agree with.

huh? if you agree, why only indirectly?

uh-oh, i hope that we do not get into "feeling" stronger and more energetic equates to actual performance enhancement.

[ESPNFan]

^^ canseco's story, i believe, is just that, a story.

as far as the level of testosterone in the body, one must look at why the injection occurred in the first place.
i seriously doubt that any steroid user has used in attempt to directly gain performance on the field, rather than in the gym or training room, and have performance gain occur indirectly.

can we agree that steroids are not used to directly better one's physical field performance?


Id say that we can't agree yet WCOB and here's why.....
I'll site one example that everyone will already be very much aware of.
Mark McGwire took Andro. This is a Fact. He said he did and the reporter found it in his locker. Andro by itself is classified as a steroid precurser. IT has Anabolic steroid like properties but it doesn't work as well. In fact it doesn't work by itself much at all. There were studies done that show that its efffects were marginal at best.
In Howard Bryants book "Jucing the game" he details how Andro was used by the East Germans in their doping programs. If you take Andro while your taking an Anabolic and its effects are much different. Andro increases the effectiveness for the Anabolic and boosts levels of Testosterone for a short period of time, as much as a few hours. The East Germans Olympians used to administer it in a nasal spray right before competition to avoid detection. And it would be out of their systems just hours later. They did complain of nasty sinus head aches however.
With oral Andro there were no headaches and a player like Big Mac(most likey) or anyone else on Anabolic Steroids would take them before a game and the benefit recieved would be exclusively an onfield one.

[west coast orange and black]

on canseco's story of injecting with mcgwire in an oakland coliseum stall:
i think that that's just a story.

on using steroids just prior to game time and benefit from such:
the professional athletes use steroids for the purpose, by and large, of being able to push themselves while training, and for recovery.
that there is or could be or used to be a somewhat immediate beneficial effect (on the field) is definitely not why the great majority of professional athletes took/take the stuff.

i can agree with what you're saying. it's just that the intention of the athlete takes precedence for me.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

huh? if you agree, why only indirectly?

uh-oh, i hope that we do not get into "feeling" stronger and more energetic equates to actual performance enhancement.

You said i seriously doubt that any steroid user has used in attempt to directly gain performance on the field, rather than in the gym or training room, and have performance gain occur indirectly.

And I replied:

So yes, indirectly I would agree with.

The "indirectly" wasn't being placed on the agreement, but the issue.

WC, if it is indeed true, that 2 hours after injection, the testosterone levels spike, and if we assume that steroid users know this; then to me it's not a stretch to think Mac and Canseco wanted that superhuman feeling during the game. Who knows what it feels like when those levels are spiked. Maybe it's all psychological, or maybe that spike actually caused you to be stronger and be superhuman for a short amount of time. That bat may feel like 15 ounces in your hand, or you may feel like you can throw the ball out of the stadium. Who knows. We don't.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: ...Who knows. We don't.

yer right. i agree with you, man.

[Mattingly]

I know this is aimed at WCOaB, but it seems the easiest post to quote...It was still cheating as he intended to gt get an unfair advantage over the other competitors, which is the same reason for using steroids. The fact that ingesting the stuff didn't have the desired effect is not the point, to me it's more a fact of he tried to get the unnatural advantage.
I guess that's where we differ. To me, that's "trying to cheat". To me, it's like arresting a guy for trying to steal a car, but he uses his housekeys to try and start the car, or even to gain access.

Now if you found a guy with burglar's tools and he had some method that was used to successfully start cars, then I'd say he's guilty of trying to start the car (and thus steal it).

In both cases, be it THG, HGH, anabolic steroids or the burglar's tools, they were proven to have success. In the case of Pud's pseudo-elixir or the house keys, they were very low-tech methods which would prove useless, at least from my viewpoint.

At the most, I'd charge someone with being extremely stupid, and if an actual crime, perhaps an "attempt", but not actually doing something, considering the method used.

[Taco De Muerte]

I'm not sure I would consider (this is me personally, lets be clear on that) the intent of ingesting ground up testicles as cheating. I would equate it more with taking calcium supplements or other such vitamins (and in fact the vitamins are most probably more effective). No one can safely say how Pud viewed the supposed advantage of the testicles for sure, and whether he thought the advantage he would gain would be unfair to other players.

Something I would like to point out is that doing something with the intent to cheat does not always mean you are cheating. You may, in fact, just be a moron. If you take a placebo, but you think it is an oral steroid, you think you are cheating and gaining an edge, but you aren't cheating. I think ineffective methods like ground up testicles should be viewed in the same way as such a situation, regardless of intent.

Now, if we are comparing the moral fiber of the people who think they are cheating, that is a different story altogether.

I agree with most of this - But I disagree with one point you made - I believe intention counts. I don't buy this " oh yeah well, it wasn't as bad of cheating as what the other did " - Oh please, the oldtimers cheated the best way they could. Also, I do believe pud's intention was to cheat when injecting himself with animal testosrone. Whether or not he " benefitted " from the stuff is a different story - but I believe he took it to get an unfair advantage over his opponents, and I believe he Believed that he had an unfair advantage over his opponents - therefore, cheating.

IMO, anyway.

[Taco De Muerte]

I guess that's where we differ. To me, that's "trying to cheat". To me, it's like arresting a guy for trying to steal a car, but he uses his housekeys to try and start the car, or even to gain access.

Now if you found a guy with burglar's tools and he had some method that was used to successfully start cars, then I'd say he's guilty of trying to start the car (and thus steal it).

In both cases, be it THG, HGH, anabolic steroids or the burglar's tools, they were proven to have success. In the case of Pud's pseudo-elixir or the house keys, they were very low-tech methods which would prove useless, at least from my viewpoint.

At the most, I'd charge someone with being extremely stupid, and if an actual crime, perhaps an "attempt", but not actually doing something, considering the method used.


Sorry mattingly - But i Disagree with this, Just because someone didn't " succeed " at cheating doesn't mean he didnt cheat - Not everyone benefits from anabolic steroids, especially people who don't know how to use them or workout hard to reap from it's benefits - But that still doesn't excuse the fact that they chose to " cheat " by taking the drug in the first place. Imo, anyway.

[west coast orange and black]

"trying to cheat" is not necessarily against the rules.
"cheating" is... sometimes.

mlb has rules that govern cheating of different sorts. some of these rules have been around longer than others. baseball can not take action against a player unless the rule and repurcussions were clearly stated and known.

baseball can not go after a player after the fact, no matter if what the player did constitutes "cheating" or "trying to cheat."

[ESPNFan]

I agree with most of this - But I disagree with one point you made - I believe intention counts. I don't buy this " oh yeah well, it wasn't as bad of cheating as what the other did " - Oh please, the oldtimers cheated the best way they could. Also, I do believe pud's intention was to cheat when injecting himself with animal testosrone. Whether or not he " benefitted " from the stuff is a different story - but I believe he took it to get an unfair advantage over his opponents, and I believe he Believed that he had an unfair advantage over his opponents - therefore, cheating.

IMO, anyway.

I still don't understand how someone can cheat if there is no rule agisnt it.

And how was it geting an unfair advantage over his opponents when the Elixir was quite clearly being marketed to everyone as a miricle drug? Anyone could get it. Do you think that the first person to use batting gloves had an unfair advantage over people who didn't? Both were legal and available to anyone. Was Brady Anderson cheating when he used creatine before other people? He used it to get an advantage. :rolleyes:

I could strain pasta through this argument. :laugh

[ESPNFan]

I agree with most of this - But I disagree with one point you made - I believe intention counts. I don't buy this " oh yeah well, it wasn't as bad of cheating as what the other did " - Oh please, the oldtimers cheated the best way they could. Also, I do believe pud's intention was to cheat when injecting himself with animal testosrone. Whether or not he " benefitted " from the stuff is a different story - but I believe he took it to get an unfair advantage over his opponents, and I believe he Believed that he had an unfair advantage over his opponents - therefore, cheating.

IMO, anyway.

We have established the fact that Pud wasn't injecting himself with pure Testosterone. The writer of the original article assumed this incorrectly. Pud injected himself with a mixture containing ground/minced and or pureed testicles. Big difference.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I believe intention counts.

Taco, will you please respond to this question I posed to you earlier.

From post #117.

Now we're able to creep inside Pud's mind and know what his intentions were? Let's say you read some wacky article that said eating earth worms would give you more energy and make you stronger. Let's say you really believed it. You go out back with a pooper scooper and a bucket, you gather a load of creepy critters. You smack them on a plate, throw a little A-1 sauce on those bad boys, and grin as they slide down your throat. Are you cheating?

[The Big C]

I agree with most of this - But I disagree with one point you made - I believe intention counts. I don't buy this " oh yeah well, it wasn't as bad of cheating as what the other did " - Oh please, the oldtimers cheated the best way they could. Also, I do believe pud's intention was to cheat when injecting himself with animal testosrone. Whether or not he " benefitted " from the stuff is a different story - but I believe he took it to get an unfair advantage over his opponents, and I believe he Believed that he had an unfair advantage over his opponents - therefore, cheating.

IMO, anyway.

I didn't actually read the article, I just sort of pieced things together from posts. If he was actually injecting stuff intraveinously, that seems a little more scientific and a little more calculated than just making a "protein" shake and chugging it, so I may agree with you there.

I didn't intend to give the impression that I condone trying to cheat and failing at it. But cheating and being morally corupt are two different things. I'm not sure we're at odds here, we may just be using different definitions.

[Mattingly]

Sorry mattingly - But i Disagree with this, Just because someone didn't " succeed " at cheating doesn't mean he didnt cheat - Not everyone benefits from anabolic steroids, especially people who don't know how to use them or workout hard to reap from it's benefits - But that still doesn't excuse the fact that they chose to " cheat " by taking the drug in the first place. Imo, anyway.
I think you're using the wrong example when talking about attempting to cheat. If you so much as inject yourself with anabolic steroids, a product that is illegal in the USA (Jose Canseco was arrested for possession of this), as well as banned in many sports, including MLB, then you have been caught "cheating". Doesn't matter if you didn't know how to use it, overused it or whatever. You used a substance that has proven to give dramatic performance advantages, and was illegal to use and distribute.

Now compared to some pseudo elixir that Pud used, I can't consider that cheating. How is something cheating when, clearly unlike anabolic steroids, Pud's elixir was *NEVER* proven to have worked?

Which USA law stated that Pud's elixir was something that could've gotten him arrested? Which MLB law barred this? Which law in *ANY* sport in 1889 made his pseudo elixir illegal to use?

I can't blame Pud for trying to get an advantage. However, I don't consider what he did to be "cheating". As "The Big C" stated in his/her reply directly above mine, "cheating" and "being morally corrupt" are two separate things. If anything, I believe that Pud was guilty of the latter, whereas you're accusing him of guilt on the former.

Please refer to Pud's methods in your reply, since that's what I'm referring to now.

Thanks.

[The Big C]

As "The Big C" stated in his/her reply directly above mine, "cheating" and "being morally corrupt" are two separate things. If anything, I believe that Pud was guilty of the latter, whereas you're accusing him of guilt on the former.
--------------------------------
His.

[ESPNFan]

As "The Big C" stated in his/her reply directly above mine, "cheating" and "being morally corrupt" are two separate things. If anything, I believe that Pud was guilty of the latter, whereas you're accusing him of guilt on the former.
--------------------------------
His.

Well at least we got something out of this thread :rolleyes:

[The Big C]

Hehe, I'm glad we got that cleared up. I didn't realize there was confusion on the matter. ;)