7 and 8 year old boy swing clips

[jusris]

My first time posting on this site and first time posting a clip of any kind.

My boys are 7 and 8 years old and have been playing since 6 years old. I have been working on there swing with inconsistant results. These clips are about 2 months old now.

Please critique and emphasize their swings.

(hopefully the links come out correctly.)

7 year old
http://www.theupload.com/view.php?id=00028946

8 year old
http://www.theupload.com/view.php?id=00028945

[MrUniverse09]

I only checked the your 8 year old's clip. He has significant problems that I'll let those better versed in the subject go through. The most important and obvious though is the fact that he's swining straight down. Chopping at the ball.

[Mark H]

Good clips to discuss. Got to get up at 5:30 for an early pool game but I'll get in on this tomorrow if I'm not too worn out when we get back.

[LClifton]

I would start them out by trying to emulate a good starting position.
This picture of A-Rod may help.
7187
Look at the boys and have them work on these positions (their form)
The function of the parts would be the next step (s), but for now I would have them work on posture.
(Actually most of proper posture is done with the function of body parts.)
Now,
Notice with A-Rod
1) Looks like someone hit him in the stomach,,,It is sucked in, resulting in his butt being poked out,
2) A little knee bend but he doesn't squat
3) Square up their feet (wouldn't hurt if their toes were pointed in a little)
3) His hands and arms are in a position of "loaded" in preparation to initiate his swing.
4) His knees are slighty "knocked"
5) The front arm forms a kind of box. (if you drew a line from back shoulder to hands, from hands to front elbow, front elbow to front shoulder it would look somewhat square)
Get your boys is a good starting position and it will make it easier to take the next steps.
Snap a picture of the boys after you do this and let us take a look (a still will work fine for this)
7 and 8 ,,,,Man o' man what a thrill to start them at this age.
Where are you located?


Sincerely,
LClifton

[jusris]

Thanks for the quick responses.

We are out here in Hawaii, so it's amazing that any of you guys are still awake to help out.

LC, thanks for the tip on posture.

I hope that I will get some discusions started here.

There is alot of information on this site that I have been sifting through but my main problem is trying to visualize the concepts and meaning of the info.

Being out here, I don't have that much access to a lot of quality information that you guys have so thanks for sharing your aquired knowledge.

[Ursa Major]

Good lookin' kids. I'd guess from the titles that the younger one's name is Aris and the older is Justice.

In some ways, Aris has the better swing -- he doesn't disconnect as much and so his rear elbow stays back; at "contact" that back arm is in the "power L" position. Justice by contrast gets his hands away from the body and tries to drag the bat through the strike zone with his arms, and so his right elbow gets pinned in next to his belly button. Also, both of them open their hips a little soon and could result in coming off the ball.

To give you a sense of what is meant by "connection" -- the hands and arms rotating with and getting power from the upper body -- you might want to look a few times at this clip of Miguel Cabrera:
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//MCabrera2005FLA_SView01.gif

Looks like their on the right track. Aris is going to scare more than a few third basemen over the next couple of years.

[jusris]

Justice by contrast gets his hands away from the body and tries to drag the bat through the strike zone with his arms, and so his right elbow gets pinned in next to his belly button.

Thanks Ursa.
Just so I'm on the same page, your description of Justice getting his hands away from his body is in which direction? Disconected toward the catcher or disconected toward the 1st base line?

That pinning of his right elbow is KILLING me, I've been trying to get rid of it but it always resurfaces.

Based on my observations of Justice, it seems that his right elbow gets a big head start from his hands. I've been trying to get him to maintain a relationship with the right elbow movement and his hands, so that they move somewhat as a group.

Aris, has a nice "Show" swing. It's impressive for his age but doesn't really produce consistantly. He seems to not be ready to maintain the concentration that is needed to actually hit a ball, but he is progressing. A good thing for Aris is that Justice has made the All-Star team this year and it is pushing Aris to better himself for next year.

Thanks again.

[Ursa Major]

HeyJusris!
Just so I'm on the same page, your description of Justice getting his hands away from his body is in which direction? Disconected toward the catcher or disconected toward the 1st base line?

That pinning of his right elbow is KILLING me, I've been trying to get rid of it but it always resurfaces.

Based on my observations of Justice, it seems that his right elbow gets a big head start from his hands. I've been trying to get him to maintain a relationship with the right elbow movement and his hands, so that they move somewhat as a group.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Justice8yoA.gif
I've turned one of Justice's representative swings into a .gif here so you can see what I mean. Others here will describe some of these issues more articulately than I, but maybe this will help start.

Mostly, I mean that his hands are too far out towards the first base dugout from his shoulder. He should shoot to start with his hands about four inches or so from his shoulder; here, they're closer to a foot. It's not the distance itself that will trouble him; it's the difficulty keeping the connection with his shoulder from that distance away. I've included some of his preswing hand and body movement -- "slop" sometimes it's called -- so you can see that it all leads to a looseness that makes it difficult to recapture that taut connection at the time that the swing is to be launched. That horizontal pre-launch bat is typical of his group (and older -- my 11 y/o son still does it). He should get it into a good launch position -- say at a 45 degree angle from vertical and may 30 degrees back toward the pitcher, and stay there, allowing for a little hand waggle so he doesn't tighten up. So, you can see at the frame marked 1 that his hands are too high to maintain that angle.

Also, in frame 1, you can see the problem with his feet and hip movement. I don't know what he does in games that earned him All-star stature, but here he steps way too soon, does a couple of bat waggles, and then swings. Worse, his front foot and hip open as he does this early step, so he gets no power from hips. Concentrate on timing the step -- "touch and turn" -- and keep the left foot pointed at the first base dugout.

Frames 2 and 3 show the meat of the swing. The hands are too far from the shoulder and, as you note, start forward early, including that right elbow. In order to hit the low pitch then, he ends up hacking down on the ball. Compare his straight right elbow at contact to Aris' bent "power L", which is better.

He almost saves the swing later, as his left foot actually closes a little (wierd!) and his grip/hand position and high finish are good quality.

The important thing for Justice to realize is that the right arm and hands just go along for the ride on the swing until the end. Try drills where he is just swinging with his left arm (he can use his right bicep to hold the bathead up if necessary); if he uses a regular bat, he'll have to swing with the connection with his rear shoulder, otherwise the bat won't go anywhere. Then -- as a drill -- try launching with the bat (about four inches above his hands) pressed against the outside of his right shoulder, just above the bicep. This will help give him the feel of the hands/shoulder connection.

As for Aris, he'll get it over time. I'm guessing he swings over the ball a lot because he rolls his wrists a second early, causing the bathead to jump up just before contact. Two possible fixes: first, keep the back elbow a little higher; second, roll his right hand back so that his second "knocking" knuckles line up with one another (or close to it). A cue I sometimes use for this is to have the hitter imagine doing a lefthanded karate chop slightly upwards; this slows the wrist roll a little. Otherwise, Aris just needs practice. I'd mix up what he's swinging at: hit off a tee, soft toss, and maybe wiffle balls, so he gets the swing and his eye grooved before he needs to worry about live pitching.

Anyhow, good luck with the guys. Lots of good determination and attitude and obviously pretty athletic. Keep us posted.

UM

[swingbuster]

Looks to me like there has been some discussion about the front foot action.

I have warned that going there was dangerous. Kids need to learn to coil , stride and explode. Messing with the front side landing stuff too early can do what he is doing. I never go there with varisty players even

I could be dead wrong but that lead foot thing would never happen by itself in " neighborhood ball".

I never saw that until people started talking about rotation into toe touch.

Forget that and work on coil into the back side and hit. They will figure the front side out. It is rarely a teach...never seen it

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: Looks to me like there has been some discussion about the front foot action. I have warned that going that was dangerous. I could be dead wrong but that lead foot thing would never happen by itself in " neighborhood ball". I never saw that until people started talking about rotation into toe touch. They will figure the front side out. It is rarely a teach...never seen it.I've pulled out the parts of your post that relate directly to Justice's front side. Could you translate this into something a bit more decipherable? (I've italicized the two passages that are particularly strained or incomplete.) Are you saying that previous focus on front side or front foot has caused this particular young man some problem -- like "that lead foot thing"? Or that it will somehow be corrected by focus on some different cues? Remember, jusris is new here, so you should assume he's not familiar with your jargon.

[swingbuster]

I am guessing that some reader has been going about teaching the kid something about rotating into toe touch.

No kid would ever do that with the front leg. He is schooled to swing and it is a wreck now.

Keep the lead elbow( bent ) and behind the belly button as you step and hit the heck out of the ball with your hips. That is kid language and it works


You don't need to coach what the front foot does. On a scale of 1-10 that is a 25 in importance for this young man to learn to have fun playing baseball

*** note on front foot ...stand behind a kid with his feet shoulder width apart and push him forward. He will catch myself with the front foot at the proper angle. He would not keep it side ways and he would not open it too much.

What is a teach about that? In this swing he is not stopping/ blocking weight transfer..that is why he is deliberate about the front foot action that should be totally unconscience in a swing.

[jusris]

Updated clips of the boys.

Justice
http://www.theupload.com/view.php?id=00029146
http://www.theupload.com/view.php?id=00029150

Aris
http://www.theupload.com/view.php?id=00029152

[jusris]

Ursa, thanks for the .gif, Justice thought it was crazy to have video of him posted so that "everyone in the world could see him."

I am unaware of how to make a .gif so could you help with some informtation.

I agree that in the February swings I had Justice focus on starting his swing by actually turning out his lead foot and knee. I did this so that he could emphasize using his hips more in his swing. This movement didn't really improve anything and as you all can tell his problems are pretty much all over.

I like and have used the elbow/ belly button idea having seen it on this site. I often use this idea with good results with other kids on the boys team. Justice also can recite this saying but he doesn't know how to hit the heck out of the ball. He is an addicted shoulder user, he appears to use his right shoulder to hit the ball, as well as throw the ball. He gets away with alot at this level because of his natural athletisism (sp?). Anyone aware of this addiction?

[swingbuster]

He is an addicted shoulder user, he appears to use his right shoulder to hit the ball, as well as throw the ball. He gets away with alot at this level because of his natural athletisism (sp?). Anyone aware of this addiction?

. Hitting with top hand and rear shoulder is a major problem but common. His bat is flat as you pointed out. Set his hands out from arm pit and set the bat more vertical / weighless with lead elbow back close to chest and rear up and back.

Now shift and hit. He will be more bottom hand connected as the hips have started turning the shoulders when the bat turns on plane. You need to reduce his ability to use the back shoulder / top hand at launch. This set up will unleverage it in the early swing and give it freedom later at contact

I did this so that he could emphasize using his hips more in his swing

It will have the exact opposite effect. Keeping the coil back until foot block is the way to go. They know how to uncoil...the coil is a teach

[jusris]

Ursa, I get the connected part of the swing. I just had Justice swing his Medicus rope bat that I made. I had his swing with the rope resting on top of the rear shoulder, I had him swing with the rope contacting his shoulder until "contact". I did this so that he could keep his hands up near the shoulder/ arm pit area throughout the swing. This made it almost impossible for him to work his hands away toward the 1st base line in his swing. Worked wonders.

Now how will this translate into his normal swing.

Swingbuster, thanks for the input. When you said "Set his hands out from arm pit and set the bat more vertical / weighless with lead elbow back close to chest and rear up and back." Did you mean his hands positioned slightly infront of his armpit (towards the plate)? I think that having the lead elbow down to chest instead of up and away made sense to him.

[swingbuster]

Swingbuster, thanks for the input. When you said "Set his hands out from arm pit and set the bat more vertical / weighless with lead elbow back close to chest and rear up and back." Did you mean his hands positioned slightly infront of his armpit (towards the plate)? I think that having the lead elbow down to chest instead of up and away made sense to him.

the barrel from a catchers view will split the top of helmet and his hands arm comfortably close to arm pit but not pulled in tight.

You need to shift any tension to his lower body that is maintaining his posture , bent knees , spine angle, straight back and cupped out rump.

Take the tension out of the top and work on his upper body set up where the bat weighs nothing

It has been nice working with you while the posse is away in Dodge City or something.

They would have never given me three responses without hijacking you and discrediting everything I said.

Maybe I can help you get him better before they return

[jusris]

swing, thanks for clearing up the position. Maintaining the tension in the lower half, I never thought about it like that.

Bottom line is, everyone has something to offer. Honestly I hear certain points that both sides are saying and am having a hard time differentiating the differences between them.

I think that sometimes the message that everyone is saying is solid in thier heads but the descriptions/ explanations (the picture) of what is happening gets messed up in the receivers minds, and thus the problems.

I do believe that it is great that there are different points of views floating around here. I am a believer that in order for progress and accountability to continue there needs to be some sort of swimming against the current happening.

Thanks again and remember both sides of the argument are needed but the main thing is progress be maintained.

[jusris]

swingbuster, another question.

Could you explain your BHUT in a basic way for me. I have been seeing it alot but haven't quite figured it out.

[swingbuster]

BHUT

When the bat is over the helmet the bottom hand is basically under the top. The hands are stacked close to vertical.

Many MLB players start the bat in the typical slot behind the helmet. During the loading, the elbow action takes the bat barrel out over the helmet and the hands work to a BHUT position briefly

For teaching kids we use BHUT in the set up and many use it in the game as a starting point. It keeps the back scap loaded beautifully and creates a better circular hand path and creates hip shoulder separation

Great players can morph into this position during the load as they coil their hips. load/ turn their shoulders and load their weight back.

Kids need a little more instruction and practice to find this position before they attempt to dyamically load into it.

Players like Sheffield amd Tejada just start there. Players like Adam Dunn, Chipper, Piazza, Bo Jackson , Lance Bergmon, Kirby Puckett, Aaron, Ruth, morph into it and back in their load.

Coaches put a kids bat in ONE position, behind the helmet, and it is implied that it must stay there. While loading it doesn't in many great players.

It has many advantages that you will see. It has made a huge differnce for our team. Sandman will have some clips next week I hope. I am sending him more clips on Monday too from a 16 run game in 5 innings.

[jusris]

:) :) :) :) :)

[LClifton]

Ursa you are right when you say:
You Remember, jusris is new here, so you should assume he's not familiar with your jargon
And that is why I started with posture (perhaps something we could all agree on, nearly)
Thanks for bringing this up...It's always a good reminder for us all.

Jusris, we (and I think I speak for most of us) have a genuine interest in trying to help young hitters. What a truly fun, frustrating, fun, grinding, fun thing it is to work with young guys and develop good solid moves from the start.

I will study these clips further and be happy to put my 2 cents worth in.

Glad you're here and wish I was in Hawaii :)

Sincerely,
LClifton

[Chris O'Leary]

My boys are 7 and 8 years old and have been playing since 6 years old. I have been working on there swing with inconsistant results. These clips are about 2 months old now.

I see a couple of things in the GIF that Ursa posted...

1. It looks like the bat he's using is way too long for his size.

2. He has at least one hitch in his swing. His hands don't start all the way back. Rather, he takes them back and up in several discrete movements. That will make it hard for him to hit fastballs.

3. As someone else mentions, he really swings down on the ball (which some think is a good idea but that I don't like).

4. His picking up and putting down his front foot looks really awkward and disjointed. It's isn't well integrated with the rest of his swing. I would get rid of it and have him try a no-stride swing.

5. He really wraps the bat around his head (points bat head at the SS).

I do like how he finishes.