Hip Coil

[swingbuster]

Hip coil is often omitted in the average swing. When a batter is square to the plate, the side belt loop is toward catcher. If he makes a full hip turn then the belt loop moves 90 degrees to the near edge of the plate. He cannot turn any further than belly button to pitcher.

The only way to get more hips turn is to counter rotate the hips minus degrees before you swing. Yeager measured the average hip coil in MLB players as 28 degrees. This is 1/3 more hip turn added to the equation.

Also , the minus hip turn sets the hands inside the target line and is repondsible for some of the barrel displacement getting the barrel out there) It is also associated with an inside / out path

Failure to coil the hips as you stride can result in pull field preference, deminished power, and outside /in swing paths, linear swing paths, one piece turns, ect

I don't see much written here about it

[jojab]

There is some really good stuff on Steve's DVD's regarding pelvic load. I'm sure if you ventured off to Houston he'd be glad to drop a load or two on you! :D

Seriously though, the Posse is well versed in the area of hip coil and your thread should generate some interesting discussion.

Pujols is the poster child for a good hip coil, in my opinion.

Joe

[Mark H]

Michelle Smith ain't bad either.

[Chris O'Leary]

Hip coil is often omitted in the average swing.

I love to look for parallels in sports, and the idea of coiling the hips and shoulders is one that is common to both baseball and golf. In golf, they refer to it as the X-Factor.

What's interesting is that in the golf world, the current focus seems to be on shoulder coil rather than on hip coil. In other words, the idea is to coil the hips 15 degrees but to coil the shoulders 90 degrees.

In a new book that analyzes Tiger Woods' swing, the author talks about how Tiger actually coils his hips less than he used to but coils his shoulders just as much.

I think the idea is that it's more important to stretch the muscles between the hips and the shoulders (e.g. the torso) rather than stretch the muscles at or below the level of the hips.

[swingbuster]

Yeager gives the breakdown of hip/ shoulder neg rotation back and your correct.

I think a key point is that the hips have to get behind the shoulder turn and at the cusp get in front.

This is important much.... more important than a focus on scap load( unless you find it your mechanism and I never did)...what the rear shoulder muscle is doing. I don't mean that as a slam. The macro-picture is most important.

Mankin said" it is about turning the shoulders" turning them back and then turning them through. Hip coil and uncoil moves the shoulders

Mechanisms synch the top and bottom

[tom.guerry]

Chris-

The hitting swing is most similar to the "classic" golf swing of the wooden shaft era. Not surprisingly,this old golf swing was said to have the feel of "hips and hands" which is quite different from the more violent modern metal shaftswings where things have evolved to maximize the xfactor seoaration from hips to shoulders.The classic hips and hands swing was necessary for optimizing timing accuracy (which is why this type of swing is also best for hiting where minimizing timing error is paramount).

In the classic swing, the hips were turned WAY back, there was minimal hip to shoulder separation and the arms were stretched WAY back on the backswing with a loose grip in the lead hand.SEE:

http://www.golfdigest.com/ravielli/

The simplest way to convert a golf swing to a hitting swing is to start with the classic swing and then minimize the backward turn of the hip by :

1- keeping head looking forward and

2- turning back foot more pigeon toed and

3-changing the back arm action to go along with accentuated hip cock. This means using the same back arm actionsequence as in loading the throwing arm for the overhand throw (where you also emphasize hip cock).

Then, shorten the swing by shortening the lead arm "strut" - fold arms to hold bat up on shoulders, swing with bent but stable lead arm.

The golf swing is very similar to the lowball swing. Weight shift and its relationship to swing plane are understood best in golf and also apply fairly directly to hitting mechanics.

[fungo22]

The golf swing is very similar to the lowball swing. Golf gloves are also similar to batting gloves. I haven't noticed any MLB hitters wearing golf gloves for quite a while, but before they started making batting gloves, a few MLB hitters wore golf gloves. If memory serves me correctly, it was in the mid to late 70s. I think they just wore one on their bottom hand. Golf gloves were pretty expensive and MLB players didn't make the kind of money they make now. Or maybe it was just me. They could afford one for each hand, but golf gloves were only made for one hand. In those days, golf gloves had a snap instead of velcro, or at least mine did.

Tom probably knows more about golf gloves than I do, but I just thought it interesting that this is one more thing that golf and hitting have in common.

[LClifton]

Golf gloves are also similar to batting gloves. I haven't noticed any MLB hitters wearing golf gloves for quite a while, but before they started making batting gloves, a few MLB hitters wore golf gloves. If memory serves me correctly, it was in the mid to late 70s. I think they just wore one on their bottom hand. Golf gloves were pretty expensive and MLB players didn't make the kind of money they make now. Or maybe it was just me. They could afford one for each hand, but golf gloves were only made for one hand. In those days, golf gloves had a snap instead of velcro, or at least mine did.
I really wish you would stop holding back all this valuable information, Fungo.
In several conversations with you, you have never told me this.
Now I can add this into the hitting stuff we do.,,,,,,Thanks.

LClifton

p.s. We tried to incorporate into our hitting-------that thingy you posted with the skeleton throwing the ball.
It didn't work,,,,she did, however, hit a few foul balls off her right foot as it followed thru?
Maybe we're just not doing it right.:crazy
http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/vbforum/images/pmopoweredby1xxx.gif[/QUOTE]

[tom.guerry]

Buster-

Good point about hip coil and getting things mechanically/sequentially right from the beginning.

While there are some overarching principles and surface appearance is important,the deeper functional level is wherte it happens. I think the most important organizing aspect of assessing what is going on at the deeper than surface level must be guided by comparison to a universal mechanical pattern,perhaps described as "absolutes". While an argument CAN be made for a deeper more biological/physiological/"trainer's typoe level, this is often too deep a level to worry about for many learners and even as it becomes improtant, you had still better conform to the "absolute" aspects of the mechanical level.

Here is a batspeed post where Mankin talks about absolutes and Zig talks about the deeper individual perspective,for example:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/12455.html

Anyway, back to "hip coil", the mechanical approach is a good one for hitting just as in golf. You need to go back to the beginning of the motion after taking a good stance,then hip coil is essential.Part of this is turning the hip back over a stable back leg which passively internally rotates the leg in the back hip socket. Hip coks and stays coked with supporting internal rotation of lead leg abd back arm as well.

Once the hips are coked,then the hands need to cock/load the upper body as you have described, also including the setting of the swing radius so that hands get in more for more inside out plane (and more subsequent for ward weight shift as noted by LAu) for outside/longer swing radius location.

So then you have the lower body mechanically right and the upper body mechanically right, then you load by twisting the upper body and lower body well synched by simultaneous external rotaion of back arm and front leg.
Well timed forward and down weight shift continues and you are mechanically prepared for heel drop.etc as a result of the "GO" decision.

The mechanical sequences have to adhere to the sequence requirements or making a good swing becomes less and less likely.

[swingbuster]

The mechanical sequences have to adhere to the sequence requirements or making a good swing becomes less and less likely.

Good post Tom,

when there is no sequence the hands will do the intuitive and lead.

The reason so many posted swings are hands ahead of hips is that the negative moves of the preswing are missing and when the reactive stage starts the hands move first. If they must turn on plane to come forward then the hips lead by default

[ssarge]

While there are some overarching principles and surface appearance is important
Why?

Regards,

Scott

[fungo22]

when there is no sequence the hands will do the intuitive and lead.
Sometimes when there is a sequence the hands lead. In fact, hands leading is a sequence.


The reason so many posted swings are hands ahead of hips is that the negative moves of the preswing are missing and when the reactive stage starts the hands move first. If they must turn on plane to come forward then the hips lead by default Who cares? The object is not for the hips to lead the hands. The object is for the strong muscles in the hips, butt and lower back to drive the swing.

The way to learn to drive the swing with those muscles is not some hocus-pocus hand/arm action but to learn to load and unload those muscles. For you and Tom to insist that some "sequencing" will lead to proper loading and unloading of the middle shows that you don't really understand the movements we're talking about. The fact that you have persistently refused to have them demonstrated to you, shows that you don't care that you don't understand. I don't mind your being wrong. I was wrong for a long time. Your arrogance in insisting you are right without making the effort to find out what some pretty smart people are talking about is contemptable, in my opinion.

[fungo22]

I just thought it interesting that this is one more thing that golf and hitting have in common. Actually, this does not give enough credit to golf. It is a classic example of one more thing that baseball has learned from golf.

The tee is another example. I'll talk more about that later.

[Ifubuildit]

Hello Gents,

I am having a bit of heartburn over this one. This would appear to me to be another name/explanation/justification for counter rotation. Now I understand that this started with Hip coil from the rear belt loop pointing at the catcher then turning towards the target. I am not sure I would agree with counter rotation of the hips which is where I think some of you are going with this right now.

It would seem to me that in doing that your adding another opportunity for disconnection during the swing. Just my initial thought as I read this post.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Elliott.

[swingbuster]

Am I understanding this correctly?

Hips counter-rotate 28 degrees elliott as measured by a PHD Dr Yeager who is employed by the Padres for video analysis.

I also know this from playing sports.

[swingbuster]

Who cares? The object is not for the hips to lead the hands. The object is for the strong muscles in the hips, butt and lower back to drive the swing.

When you get the hands in front of the hips splain how the above can drive the swing

For you and Tom to insist that some "sequencing" will lead to proper loading and unloading of the middle shows that you don't really understand the movements we're talking about. The fact that you have persistently refused to have them demonstrated to you, shows that you don't care that you don't understand. I don't mind your being wrong. I was wrong for a long time. Your arrogance in insisting you are right without making the effort to find out what some pretty smart people are talking about is contemptable, in my opinion.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I watch Steve hit off the tee and I watch my kids hit daily. You better explain that magic move better. It is fairly common to rotate the hips,,,they all do it well

What? ...we are supposed to fly to Houston for a demo or we are comtempable and arrogant for posting proper swing sequences and we are wrong when all the MLB players that post basically say we are right.

I can shoot an occassional par round of golf and I have no idea how it all goes together.

we scored 16 runs today in 5 innings and I don't talk middle at all.

You can fly to Alabama

I sent the clips to Sandman.

[Ifubuildit]

Swing,

Now that you have clarified, and that is where I thought this was going, this probably will work for the elite athlete. (Translates to a player 15 and above) Tell me how Dr Yeager or yourself would explain, and have a 10 year old girl or boy perform this move, and keep the sequencing/Kinetic chain correct to maximize bat speed, optimize rotation, and match the plane of the ball for solid contact.

Elliott.

[NJPirate]

we scored 16 runs today in 5 innings and I don't talk middle at all.

Buster, you say u don't talk about middle, yet u started a thread about hip coil???

Not busting, just a newbie trying to understand :confused:

[swingbuster]

coil hip, hand set BHUT shift weight....my kids don't know the word middle

[swingbuster]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swing,

Now that you have clarified, and that is where I thought this was going, this probably will work for the elite athlete. (Translates to a player 15 and above) Tell me how Dr Yeager or yourself would explain, and have a 10 year old girl or boy perform this move, and keep the sequencing/Kinetic chain correct to maximize bat speed, optimize rotation, and match the plane of the ball for solid contact.

One trick is to hand them a cloth bag with handles loaded with some weight.

Ask them to turn and throw it. they will turn back into their back foot and turn and release it.

OR

Ask..how would you stand sideways and throw a suitcase?

There will always be a negative move at any age. THere will be a sequence and they will pick it up quickly given a goal. Stop explaining and DO

[fungo22]

When you get the hands in front of the hips splain how the above can drive the swing Did I say anything about getting the hands in front of the hips?

I watch Steve hit off the tee and I watch my kids hit daily. You better explain that magic move better. It is fairly common to rotate the hips,,,they all do it well You're not paying attention, as usual. I did not say you don't watch people do it. I said you don't understand it. How do you know your kids "do it well" if you don't understand what it means to "do it well"? And just so you've forgotten the original point: Your focusing on hand/arm action and "proper sequencing" as the key to rotating well demonstrates that you don't understand what rotating well means.

What? ...we are supposed to fly to Houston for a demo Steve has a DVD. That might be an option open to you. Have you seen it? He has offered to meet Tom in Northern CA several times. Tom has turned his nose up at the opportunity and has expressed no interest in making it happen.

or we are comtempable and arrogance for posting proper swing sequences That's not what I said. Read what I wrote. You are arrogant and contemptible for persistence in dogmatically shoveling out your advice without making the effort to understand what we are saying.

we are wrong when all the MLB players that post basically say we are right. Whoa, whoa, whoa. All the MLB players that post? All of them? They all say you are right? Our entire MLB membership call me regularly for advice, and all of them confess to me that they don't understand 90% of what you & Tom write.

we scored 16 runs today in 5 innings and I don't talk middle at all. My 8-year-old nephew's recreational team scored 21 runs in 4 innings and they don't talk middle or hand/arm action. What's your point?

[Mark H]

Hello Gents,

I am having a bit of heartburn over this one. This would appear to me to be another name/explanation/justification for counter rotation. Now I understand that this started with Hip coil from the rear belt loop pointing at the catcher then turning towards the target. I am not sure I would agree with counter rotation of the hips which is where I think some of you are going with this right now.

It would seem to me that in doing that your adding another opportunity for disconnection during the swing. Just my initial thought as I read this post.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Elliott.

You don't want the chest to counter rotate. Here's a guy who loads the pelvis and counter rotates the hips. I was field level down the left field line and watched this one go right by me with an involuntary NOOOO.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=3&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[Mark H]

When you get the hands in front of the hips splain how the above can drive the swing.

Straw man argument.




What? ...we are supposed to fly to Houston for a demo or we are comtempable and arrogant for posting proper swing sequences and we are wrong when all the MLB players that post basically say we are right. .

Why do you keep attributing positions to us that no one has taken? I think it's because you don't understand what we are talking about and keep interpreting our words in light of your own understanding. No one said some MLB hitters don't do what you describe. OTOH, some don't as shown in the Ohfor linked clips but I don't recall you acknowledging this. By the way, I think he referred to an aspect of Tom's behavior as contemptible. I don't think he included you?







we scored 16 runs today in 5 innings and I don't talk middle at all. .

Why would you if they are doing it well?

You can fly to Alabama

No need. We understand what you are saying already. What you don't understand is where we agree with you and where we disagree with you.

[Mark H]

Swing,

Now that you have clarified, and that is where I thought this was going, this probably will work for the elite athlete. (Translates to a player 15 and above) Tell me how Dr Yeager or yourself would explain, and have a 10 year old girl or boy perform this move, and keep the sequencing/Kinetic chain correct to maximize bat speed, optimize rotation, and match the plane of the ball for solid contact.

Elliott.

Here you begin to touch on part of what Tom and SB are missing.

[tom.guerry]

IFUBUILDIT-

How to get little ones to "do it".

Throwing and hitting are extremely similar. VERY small ones,at least by age 6 can throw with a high level buggywhip pattern - Ron Wolforth has best drills (Nyman foundation). The sequnece is stretched out and "creative" vs reactive in throwing. If you can develop a high level whip overhand throw THEN your body will have a pronouned tendency to do the same thing in hitting. IF the coach understands what is similar and what is different about the seqeuneces and how weight shift timing is different for these 2 skills,then learning can be accelerated.



I learned golf at an early age with a high level pattern and good rotation from a "pro" who never focussed on hip rotation. As buster says, you can work on other things and the body WILL rotate well via trial and error focussed on these other things like how the 2 ends of the body are working/synching.

BUSTER-

(This detail will only make sense if you know the yeager details.)

The Yeager Barfield analysis is a GREAT example of cause/effect and how to analyze/recommend fix based on defining the sequence trouble.

If others have this DVD it could be very enlightening to go over it from the "arm action is king" perspective.here is a quick "cause effect summmary/comparison" for those who have this DVD. Look in particular at what Yeager considers a GOOD vs BAD Barfield swing.

Yeager divides the swing into 4 phases based on lower body mechanics:
1- back leg load (inward turn and hip cok/negative move)
2 - back leg push (positive move/handcok/wind rubber band)
3 - front leg block (drop and tilt)
4- front leg push (swing)



In the BAD swing, Yeager notes that phase 1 is OK but then Barfield pushes/internally rotates the back leg LATE in phase 2. Instead he recommends that Barfield needs to finish the push SOONER so that the front leg does not start it's block (next phase/phase 3) until the push is done. He also notes in this case there are several other significant flaws. 1- the front leg is too extended when the front foot bears weigh to block, so there is no flex in the front leg to subsequently assist in driving hip rotation during the swing/approach to contact 2- The back elbow gets too far away from the side and this means there is a wide/casting swing that doesn't stay inside the ball.3-when the front leg blocks too little separation is created,which is seen as hands not back as much as desirable when blocking.(this gets at buster's point about hands in front of hips and how to fix).

For fixing, yeager recommends barfield:

"MUST FINISH BACK LEG PUSH BEFORE FRONT LEG BLOCKS"

This is a SEQUENCE problem.

To accomplish this he recommends:

1 - push with back leg more before front leg blocks which means that back heel should come up before front heel gets down
2-barfield slot back elbow better/closer to side/not so wide,and
3-keep back hip ahead of hands better so it feels like the "back knee drags the back elbow" .Move the arms so that when the back elbow slots,the hands stay back.
4 - front leg must be flexed when blocking starts,and front leg extension neeeds to finish before contact
5-wrists shoul uncok late,but fully before contact with no roll before contact

Using this advice, yeager shows a much improved barfield swing with things IN SEQUENCE and better separation/etc.

YEAGER does have quite a bit of upper body/arm info including:
1-upper body stays relaxed to create "lag"
2-getting and maintaining lead arm extension throughout the swing is desirable
3-reatin wrist cok as long as possible before being fully uncoked at contact
4-keep bat vertical as long as possible

In particular, Yeager mentions that some Great hitters have a significant "barrel load" at the same time they are "back leg loading"(phase1).Aaron and Bonds are compared.

This describes a fairly common high level flaw and yeager's approach is a good one and there are demonstrable results in the good vs bad swing.

I would prefer to guide the analysis based on a model where the lower body action phases are similar BUT recognizing that "ARM ACTION IS KING".

This means that somehow the "BARREL LOAD" concept must be better integrated in the model, recognizing that it is a necessary/essential/absolute that is more exagerrated in the styles of some (bonds aaron)

Likewise, believe it or not,I am all for simplicity, BUT I think 4 phases is too few for the mechanical/kinesiological sequences and dependencies that must be followed.The mechanics must be right. starting with a good setup and flowing through

inward turn
hip cok
handcok
rubberbandwinding
drop and tilt
swing.

Furthermore this BASIC SEQUENCE needs to be tailored for making swing adjustments (Epstein perfect swing is adjustment you make apporach) for
in vs out
up vs down
fast vs slow
slump busting
getting compact for 2 strike/other situations


When I look at the difference between the "good" and "bad" barfield swings, the thing that I think is of paramount importance is the arm action difference. I believe Mankin would agree describing the primary problem that is "fixed" is that there is less "pushing with the top hand" in the good swing. Watch how the back elbow extends and the hands get away from the back shoulder in the "BAD" swing. The Yeager upper body info can be tweaked to greatly improve cause effect analysis ("getting and maintaining lead arm extension" , for example, can be much better understood in terms of Mankin's approach to adjusting swing radius and then maintaining "Circular Hand Path").

I agree a KEY problem is

"MUST FINISH BACK LEG PUSH BEFORE FRONT LEG BLOCKS"

HOWEVER, using an arm action is king model means that for an optimal "fix" you would focus primarily on fixing arm action sequence and the way this demands synchronization between the back arm and front leg. In this way, you would try to achieve the same goal

"FINISH PUSH BEFORE BLOCKING"

by DELAYING BLOCKING as opposed to FINISHING THE PUSH SOONER.

This can make a huge difference becasue you are trying to get better separation/coil and focus on sooner push will tend to compress/interrupt coil,whereas focussing on delaying block will be more likely to enhance coil. STill, if enough other parameter's are improved/changed, the desired result can happen either way.(trila and error/know it when you see/feel it,etc)

BUT, IF the arm action sequence is not fixed, the other will not happen. This is an important dependency to appreciate.

In the "GOOD" swing, the top hand stays with the back shoulder.In the "BAD" swing it does not. This is a more direct/primary CAUSATIVE factor.To fix arm action sequence, the mechanical preparation of the arm must be gotten right from the beginning just as handbreak is a key in throwing.Back arm has to externally rotate to avoid the PUSH when slotting. Back forearm has to then supinate to avoid wirst bind. This means that the arm must have been prepared earlier (during setup/inward turn/hip cok/handcok) by internal rotation and the forearm by pronation. Scaps must remain loaded in right position.

WHEN the top hand gets away from the back shoulder ,it will DEMAND/TRIGGER the front leg to go ahead and block which does not leave time for the back leg to finish coil.The hands then get too much ahead of the back hip and potential for separation is lost.

Getting the arm action sequence right is necessary to make time for the back leg to go through its sequence.

THE MORE DIRECT/PRIMARY analytical question is then

"HAS COIL BEEN INTERRUPTED BY TOP HAND PUSH?"

rather than

"WAS BACK LEG PUSH TOO LATE".

In my opinion, only a good arm action sequence is a reliable durable fix for this problem.It can be felt.It is the same as for throwing.It can be prepared for in the slow more easily learned beginning of swing,etc.

A good synched external rotation of back arm and front leg will enable the full carry/coil and enable well timed weight shift support. The leg is dependent on the arm for timing this.

This will "fix" the other areas as well. The elbow WILL slot without the hands coming forward,body will twist and untwist better which means "staying inside the ball"/not having a "wide swing" because body torque dynamics will be able to drive a well connected swing to contact.The back leg push (I prefer to think of this as force production at the back foot that drives the forward weight shift by leg spread/abduction and "carry") will occur fully in sequence, the front leg will be well flexed when bloking starts so there is no "hip slide" (hip slide results when the blokc is premature becasue the back leg puashes things forward and the front leg lands too straight and conversion of linear momentum into coil is degraded/does not create additional quick coil well).There will be excellent hip torque and separation dynamics. The hands will stay behind the back hip as needed. There will be no "wrist bind",etc etc etc.

May sound complicated, but it is just ensuring adherence to the universal necessary sequence. Violate this and the swing will not be/remain in the high level pattern.

[fungo22]

How long did it take you to write that?

[swingbuster]

Not long...

Tom's has helped me attain a new level in golf that has been sustainable through better understanding.

Thanks Tom..

Shot 73 today. Average day for me was 82

[ssarge]

Throwing and hitting are extremely similar. VERY small ones,at least by age 6 can throw with a high level buggywhip pattern - Ron Wolforth has best drills (Nyman foundation). The sequnece is stretched out and "creative" vs reactive in throwing. If you can develop a high level whip overhand throw THEN your body will have a pronouned tendency to do the same thing in hitting. IF the coach understands what is similar and what is different about the seqeuneces and how weight shift timing is different for these 2 skills,then learning can be accelerated.
I see more differences than similarities.

That said, what Tom asserts MAY be true. There ARE an awful lot of "ifs." But I would somewhat gravitate towards this logic. Certainly doesn't hurt to try - kids are learning to throw and hit at the same time anyway.


What would seem to argue against it is the disproportionate percentage of the HOF that bats left and throws right. I see no correlation between overhand throwing and the bottom hand in the swing.

For that matter, there is a pretty large percentage of MLB that does this - whether or not they are all-time greats, they are good enough to reach MLB.

And for those people, I just don't see the correlation. I suppose it could be argued that the coordination is "transferred" to the opposite arm because the brain has just figured out the pattern. But I think I would resist that argument as well. No matter how much I worked on mechanics w/ my shooting / dribbling hand, the other hand never improved. I suppose it would have, had I ever worked on it. But it didn;t happen automatically.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Ifyoubuildit:

I haven't decided what I think of Yeager's research yet. I am contemplating.


One thing I do know, though, for a virtual certainty.

If you use the word "push" in ANY cue context of the swing w/ a young hitter, you will NOT get a positive result. Whether it is the back leg, the hands, anything else. It is an evil word when TEACHING hitting.

I believe that anyone who would argue this point has not in fact worked much w/ young hitters.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

If you use the word "push" in ANY cue context of the swing w/ a young hitter, you will NOT get a positive result. Whether it is the back leg, the hands, anything else. It is an evil word when TEACHING .


Probably true Scott. I tell them to release the back side...don't leave anything back there...narrow up..feet under arm pits...I let them decide whether they fall or push coil/ uncoil but I agree ,..I don't say push



I personally found Yeagers work interesting. At first, the steps were not appealing to me at all. When I read his full page physics break down complete with times and force plate readings I began to view him differently.

If we could develop a wood bat swing and use an aluminum bat what would happen? Were we good enough? What would the down side be?

I knew what we did as a team with no stride from the past 4 years. What did we have to lose.?

It has worked well for us as we have a school record going in BA and HRs. I was coaching there when we did not too so I think I see what changed...it was me and some older players with more experience too.

Even giving most of the credit to the kids...it is measurably better.

That Caitin Bentl ( sp?) swing is a Yeager stride block lower body for sure.

[swingbuster]

What would seem to argue against it is the disproportionate percentage of the HOF that bats left and throws right. I see no correlation between overhand throwing and the bottom hand in the swing.

SCott,

Wouldn't the point be that the throw RT and bat left puts the dominant RH on the bottom where it performs well thus creating a higher % of HOF players.

Since the bottom hand is the hand to connect for lead shoulder connection to the core rotation that senario is best.

The correlation would be the that in throwing, the shoulders and hands move back as the hips rotate the other way. This is the universal sequence.

The fact that the throwing hand ( RT hand in RT batter) causes the problems in many players as it wants to dominate the swing at initiation is where we suggest a mechanism vs wrong arm training

[ssarge]

Donny:

I think putting the dominant hand on the bottom is a good thing.

But the point I was responding to was Tom's contention that throwing mechanics and top hand hitting mechanics are similar.

At least I think that was his point. Did I misunderstand? The action of the top hand COULD be considered similar to throwing (similar scap load, etc.). I see nothing in the bottom hand movement that resembles throwing.

Regards,

Scott

[Mark H]

I see more differences than similarities.

That said, what Tom asserts MAY be true. There ARE an awful lot of "ifs." But I would somewhat gravitate towards this logic. Certainly doesn't hurt to try - kids are learning to throw and hit at the same time anyway.


What would seem to argue against it is the disproportionate percentage of the HOF that bats left and throws right. I see no correlation between overhand throwing and the bottom hand in the swing.

For that matter, there is a pretty large percentage of MLB that does this - whether or not they are all-time greats, they are good enough to reach MLB.

And for those people, I just don't see the correlation. I suppose it could be argued that the coordination is "transferred" to the opposite arm because the brain has just figured out the pattern. But I think I would resist that argument as well. No matter how much I worked on mechanics w/ my shooting / dribbling hand, the other hand never improved. I suppose it would have, had I ever worked on it. But it didn;t happen automatically.

Regards,

Scott

Can't believe I didn't say this first. My only defense is I don't spend any time considering this theory of Tom's. ;)

[swingbuster]

At least I think that was his point. Did I misunderstand? The action of the top hand COULD be considered similar to throwing (similar scap load, etc.). I see nothing in the bottom hand movement that resembles throwing.

True,

I get you point. I think for me the similar sequence has to do with top and bottom half working together like throwing whereby the hips coil the weight back, the shoudler are loading back still as the hips are rotating open.

I think the TOP HAND that IS similar to throwing has to be dealt with to keep it behind the mechanism like throwing.

While a pick off move might be quick, it might not have the segmentation of a throw off the mound.

The same can be said for the potential of a " quick swing"

[tom.guerry]

Sarge-

Similarity of LEAD arm loading action in throwing and hitting is an EXTREMELY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY (hard to emphasize enough) important absolute/universal to appreciate.

The usual posse reaction to my criticism is that I am stuck at the low superstitios level and its time to step up to the wonders of setpro and Steve e and "science".

I do not know Steve E's stuff except for what others send me which must be selective (usually the result of not meeting expectations).

I am very familiar with Nyman stuff and the unhappy Nyman campers have been sending me stuff for years (as well as asking how to get there equipment/how to contact setpro,etc.)

I DO agree there are MANY useful bits of info at setpro, but Nyman is not very open aboput how to put things together boht becasue of a personality problem,but alos becasue of lack of understanding.

As I have said, IF you read Nyman, even if only with an interest in hitting, it is FAR better to spend as much time as possible learning the throwing model and then trying to understand how the motion crosses over to hitting.Understand that Nyman himself does NOT understand hitting well enough to appreciate how to apply the crossover.

While the throwing model is VERY GOOD, it does have a MAJOR flaw in that as in hitting, he recommends this "turn back hip into front" as a way to "load the pelvis" to enable "good rotation" and avoid flying open.

This is a HUGE mistake which is also a HUGE mistake if carried over to hitting (ASSUMING your destination is the high level mlb patter).

The GOOD NEWS is that the necessary throwing knowledge/entire package is available through Ron Wolforth who DOES NOT make this same mistake becasue Ron understands and emphasizes GOOD LEAD ARM ACTION.

The key here is that "good rotation" and "avoiding flying open" are created by good loading/coiling which is DEPENDENT ON GOOD ARM/UPPER BODY ACTION (arm action IS king in BOTH throwing and hitting).

If you try to optimize pelvic loading by "turn back hip into front", the universal sequence of motion will get compressed or out of order which LESSENS/INTERRUPTS COIL PREMATURELY. The you have to spin.

The SAME goes for hitting.In both skills there is the same arm loading sequence. One key difference is that in throwing,the early loading (break hands with elbows up and palms dow) is symmetric whereas in the 2 handed push pull (or pull-pull) of hitting, one hand/arm goes first,then the other, what we have dicussed as "reciprocating action". Still the individual arm goes through the same sequence.

In BOTH throwing and hitting,the key to optimal coil/avoiding flying open is the ongoing internal rotation of the lead arm during the end of rubber band winding (in the throw model this would be when the throwing arm starts up by external rotation during "stepover") until the end of "drop and tilt" when connection occurs.

This allows uninterrupted coil/avoidance of compression and depends on the innate tendency of arm action to control synchronization of the laoding of the upper and lower body (all this is explained best by Hodge/BIOMECHANICBASEBALL with regard to throwing and applies to hitting).

BAck arm action is primary in controlling the loading sequence during hip copk and hand cok and the beginning of rubber band winding. Lead arm then takes over and must internally rotate and sstay that way through contact in hitting.

[fungo22]

The GOOD NEWS is that the necessary throwing knowledge/entire package is available through Ron Wolforth who DOES NOT make this same mistake becasue Ron understands and emphasizes GOOD LEAD ARM ACTION. What does he teach about the lead arm?

The key here is that "good rotation" and "avoiding flying open" are created by good loading/coiling which is DEPENDENT ON GOOD ARM/UPPER BODY ACTION (arm action IS king in BOTH throwing and hitting). It was this assertion that prompted me to enter into our first sustained dialogue at Shawn's place. The only reason you gave that good loading/coiling of the middle depended on good arm/upper body action was the throwing analogy (more on that below). I still don't understand why you make this claim. I'm not all that persuaded with the "arm action is king" in throwing, let alone hitting. At least not to the extent that it is some mystical metronome or distributor synchronizing the firing of the rest of the body movements.

If you try to optimize pelvic loading by "turn back hip into front", the universal sequence of motion will get compressed or out of order which LESSENS/INTERRUPTS COIL PREMATURELY. The you have to spin. I don't see how this is necessarily so, in hitting or throwing.

In BOTH throwing and hitting,the key to optimal coil/avoiding flying open is the ongoing internal rotation of the lead arm during the end of rubber band winding (in the throw model this would be when the throwing arm starts up by external rotation during "stepover") until the end of "drop and tilt" when connection occurs. I understand less about throwing than I do about swinging a bat, so my question is about swinging a bat. How is rotating the front arm (lifting the elbow?) causal to mid-body muscle action? What do you mean by "flying open"? It would seem to me that maintaining lead scapula abduction would be more a key to avoidance of "flying open." But then I may not understand what you mean by the term.

This allows uninterrupted coil/avoidance of compression and depends on the innate tendency of arm action to control synchronization of the laoding of the upper and lower body (all this is explained best by Hodge/BIOMECHANICBASEBALL with regard to throwing and applies to hitting). Cletus, he's quoting Hodge. What is "compression" and why is it bad? Tom, is "neuromuscular" a misnomer? Is it not the brain that controls synchronization of the loading of lower and upper body? In what sense does the arm control anything?

Tom, are you more interested in proving your thesis that throwing and swinging a bat are analogous or in helping people better understand how to optimally swing and learn to swing a bat? You keep bringing throwing into your arguments. It is not helpful to anyone who is not familiar with your understanding (whether based on Nyman or Wolforth) about throwing. Why not take off the theoretician's hat for a few days and actually try to focus on one thing: Clearly communicating on how you think the body optimally swings a bat. How many people have commented that they don't understand what you write ... to the point that many don't even bother to read your posts? Forget golf. Forget throwing. Come on down off your philosopher king's thrown and try to communicate with people.

Unless this is just a form of recreation for you and you don't really care whether you help anyone or not.

[Ohfor]

Tommy

How fast could Nolan Ryan throw the ball if he had .2 seconds to do it?

[ssarge]

Similarity of LEAD arm loading action in throwing and hitting is an EXTREMELY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY (hard to emphasize enough) important absolute/universal to appreciate.
So the theory is appropriate for those who throw right and bat left, but not for R/R? You can't apply it to both arms, right?

[tom.guerry]

Sarge-

Players who learn hitting at a young age or switch hitting develop the same program. For example,Ted Williams has the same pattern with nondominant back arm.Same program without tendency to top hand dominance might be a pretty good mix. Ted Still thought the top hand was the power hand regardless of which was dominant.

This says to me that this loading sequence is the optimal pattern,but it would be hard to learn when older because the best way to teach it then,I believe would be by teaching throwing which you would likely only do with dominant arm.